PDA

View Full Version : Is the Pressure on Manning—or Chris Clark?



Joel
01-25-2014, 02:01 PM
Overall, Clark's filled in for Ryan Clady better than any of us could have hoped. During several games Phil Simms quoted Coach Foxs declaration Clark's the NFLs best backup tackle. That said, he hasn't always been perfect, and faces a big test next week, from an LTs greatest foe and one that's given Clark trouble all year: Speed rushers off the edge.

The first big evidence we'd be fine with Clark in Cladys spot was against Dallas, when the commentators marveled at him shutting down top pass rusher DeMarcus Ware so thoroughly all game that Dallas finally gave up and moved Ware to the other side facing Orlando Franklin (same result.) However, that game was only Wares second (IIRC) since returning from an injury that still lingered, and he went out for a few more weeks just a couple games later. Still, Clark generally played well until the last games before our bye and first after our bye.

Then it got ugly: 3 strip-sacks in as many games, 2 giving opponents the ball inside our 20 for easy TDs, and the other a safety that THEN gave them the ball for a TD drive: 9 pts in a road game we lost by 6. Granted, that was just a month after Clark took over as starter, and he's much improved since, yet was flagged for obvious holding at key moments in several games (including at least once in the playoffs.) False starts are usually minor unless it's 3rd and short, but 10 yd Offensive Holding penalties always make me wince (or cheer on D:9) They're drive-killers.

I like Clark against powerful bull-rushers; he holds his ground well. It's too often been a different story against quick agile speed rushers, especially great ones on turf (i.e. Robert Mathis @Indy.) Next week we're playing a game on FieldTurf, where Clady will face a respectable if unremarkable pass rusher (i.e. Chris Clemons) in Seattles base D, and an elite one (i.e. Cliff Avril) if they have time to substitute on 3rd down. If he handles it as well as he did Tamba Hail, no problem; if it goes like it did against Mathis and Brian Orakpo, that would be a HUGE problem.

I'm also worried about Beadles vs. 311 lb. Brandon Mebane (ironically, Beadles has all the agility I wish Clark did, but Clark has all the strength I wish Beadles did.) Whether or not Beadles is up to THAT task though, it's unlikely Mebane will allow Beadles any liberty to help out Clark inside. It'll take more than an occasional chip from Ball or even Moreno to slow Avril outside, too.

Note: None of this is to say Clark will be awful any more than an assurance he'll be great—but if I HAD to be I'd say EITHER is more likely than anything in the middle. The only thing I'm sure of is that our offense will be as good or bad as its line: If they pass block but don't run block, we'll pass well but run poorly; if the opposite, the opposite; if they can't run OR pass block, we'll be crushed; if they do both, we'll dominate a great D.

So that's the question: What kind of game does Clark have the last and biggest time he must fill in for Clady? He's in the spotlight at the most critical pass-blocking position as our only backup lineman, starting in the SB. Though he needed time to adjust to the starting spot and has had growing pains, he's mostly done a fine job this season: This is his biggest test, for the biggest stakes; will he—and thus Denver—pass or fail...? Thoughts appreciated; flames expected. :tongue:

Dzone
01-25-2014, 02:12 PM
He will be successful because manning will be throwing the ball before any seawhaks get near him. All clark has to do is win the battle for a few seconds on every pass play and he will have a great game, at least as far as pass protect goes. Mannings not been touched but once in the last two games. I dont think it will be any different next sunday

Ravage!!!
01-25-2014, 02:17 PM
The entire OL has it's hands full this week, for sure. I doubt Seattle blitzes much, so they will rely on their four down linemen to put pressure on Mannning. Clark has performed fantastically, and I'm sure he's up for the challenge. He's played against some VERY good DL this season, and there is no reason to believe that what he will be facing in the Super Bowl will be greater than those.

Manning will have to be sharp, but the DL doesn't have the benefit of having their "12th man" stadium. They haven't been as "awesome" away from home, and they don't have the home field advantage to mess up Manning's calls and audibles. The DL will keep them on their toes from getting quick jumps by giving the hard counts.... something that Seattle hasn't had to deal with.

Manning WILL get pressure on occasion. Lets just hope that on those few plays, he doesn't make the decision to pass the ball in a hurry at the wrong time.

But I don't think Clark has a tougher challenge than what he's faced this season.

slim
01-25-2014, 02:29 PM
The pressure will be on Wilson. That OL struggles to pass block and he holds the ball way too long.

Ravage!!!
01-25-2014, 02:38 PM
The pressure will be on Wilson. That OL struggles to pass block and he holds the ball way too long.

Very true, and he hasn't been throwing the ball very accurately the last 3rd of the season nor the playoffs. They rely on the RB a LOT and if we shut down Lynch to any successful degree.... they will have to rely on Wilson's passing. That plays into Denver's hands.

slim
01-25-2014, 02:41 PM
Very true, and he hasn't been throwing the ball very accurately the last 3rd of the season nor the playoffs. They rely on the RB a LOT and if we shut down Lynch to any successful degree.... they will have to rely on Wilson's passing. That plays into Denver's hands.

Yeah, I am guessing they will sell out to stop the run and take their changes with Wilson. Seems like the logical approach.

Ravage!!!
01-25-2014, 02:47 PM
Yeah, I am guessing they will sell out to stop the run and take their changes with Wilson. Seems like the logical approach.

I wouldn't even rush him with the purpose of 'sacking' him... but just to keep him IN the pocket. Rush straight up the field, he runs backwards anyway. Don't let him outside, and keep him where we know he is the least of threat.

Joel
01-25-2014, 05:26 PM
He will be successful because manning will be throwing the ball before any seawhaks get near him. All clark has to do is win the battle for a few seconds on every pass play and he will have a great game, at least as far as pass protect goes. Mannings not been touched but once in the last two games. I dont think it will be any different next sunday
Clark hasn't always been capable of even those few seconds vs. top edge rushers. Manning has few turnovers, but most were in precisely those situations; not all were on Clark—but many were. Yes, he's only been touched once the last two games; no, Chandler Jones and Corey Liuget aren't Avril. I hope you're right, but—to me—Clark seems the weakest link pass blocking and Beadles run blocking (before anyone says it: Beadles flattens safeties half his size 20 yds downfield; at the line—on guys HIS size—he gets no push and "opens holes" the wrong direction.)


The entire OL has it's hands full this week, for sure. I doubt Seattle blitzes much, so they will rely on their four down linemen to put pressure on Mannning. Clark has performed fantastically, and I'm sure he's up for the challenge. He's played against some VERY good DL this season, and there is no reason to believe that what he will be facing in the Super Bowl will be greater than those.
That's true, he's faced guys as good as or better than Avril—but some of the best beat him badly for entire games. Seattles rush is good enough they may not NEED blitzes, but their coverage is good enough they probably CAN. I feel good about Knowshon picking up blitzes though, not bad about Ball and Green, Dreesen and Tamme can help out against extra men—IF Clark can handle HIS man. I dunno; he's had great games against great pass rushers (e.g. Hali and Ware) and awful ones against others (i.e. Mathis and Orakpo.)


Manning will have to be sharp, but the DL doesn't have the benefit of having their "12th man" stadium. They haven't been as "awesome" away from home, and they don't have the home field advantage to mess up Manning's calls and audibles. The DL will keep them on their toes from getting quick jumps by giving the hard counts.... something that Seattle hasn't had to deal with.
They're not as fierce on the road, no, and won't have 135 dbs drowning out Mannings infinite series of signals or his hard count (though it won't be as deathly silent for our offense as Mile High either.) They're a great D even on the road though, just not AS great. It's hard to predict meetings between opposing and absolute extremes.


Manning WILL get pressure on occasion. Lets just hope that on those few plays, he doesn't make the decision to pass the ball in a hurry at the wrong time.

But I don't think Clark has a tougher challenge than what he's faced this season.
Definitely not, but since he's been very good AND very bad against more than one of those tough challenges I just don't know what to expect. I agree Manning will get at least some pressure, and that we must hope both that it's not TOO much and it doesn't rush him into costly turnovers; it's that last that worries me most, because Clark hasn't just given up sacks, he's given up multiple strip-sacks that put opposing offense 10 yds from our goal line. Even an Int would be better, especially way downfield.


The pressure will be on Wilson. That OL struggles to pass block and he holds the ball way too long.
I'm hoping that's the case for both Wilson AND Lynch, since their offensive line is one of their weaker links (and a BAD weakness for any offense, hence this thread.) Part of their problem though has been that various ones keep getting dinged so they've seldom been at full strength; unlike with Clady though, none of the injuries were season-ending, and all are probable for the SB.


Very true, and he hasn't been throwing the ball very accurately the last 3rd of the season nor the playoffs. They rely on the RB a LOT and if we shut down Lynch to any successful degree.... they will have to rely on Wilson's passing. That plays into Denver's hands.
I don't think Wilson's ready yet, and consider his WR depth questionable (Baldwin's made some nice plays though, and may be the man to watch if Champ and DRC shutdown Harvin and Tate—or Harvin if we put our #2 CB on Baldwin.) That said: Don't underestimate him just because Seattle's rarely NEEDED to pass; they average more per play through the air than anyone but Philly—and that includes OUR record-setting passing game. Wilson may crack under the pressure, especially if our anemic pass rush can rush him, but he's got the skills.


Yeah, I am guessing they will sell out to stop the run and take their changes with Wilson. Seems like the logical approach.
Definitely, yet that makes it harder, not easier, because we're in trouble if we don't stop (or at least slow) Lynch, but are in trouble if we DO unless we also stop Wilson. I know many think little of him, but it's not as simple as "stop Lynch, game over." That'll keep us in it, but won't win; we must still protect Manning, run enough to kill the clock, and stop the pass.


I wouldn't even rush him with the purpose of 'sacking' him... but just to keep him IN the pocket. Rush straight up the field, he runs backwards anyway. Don't let him outside, and keep him where we know he is the least of threat.
Good plan. Wilson's not a useless passer, even in the pocket, but IS less dangerous there, and pressuring him does no good if he just gets loose and runs for 30 yds, or throws for it. As good as Seattles pass rush is, when they had SF stopped cold Kaepernick broke lose for a 58 yd run that set up a TD. Pressure with 4-5 and COVER; if we NEED to blitz, we're doing something wrong. One sign of encouragement there is that we've done pretty well against every dual threat QB we faced, even twice against a good KC team.

OrangeHoof
01-25-2014, 07:26 PM
If the field conditions are affected by sleet/snow, their pass rush will probably be neutralized (as will ours) and it will come down to stopping the run and defending passes once they are in the air.

Joel
01-25-2014, 08:13 PM
If the field conditions are affected by sleet/snow, their pass rush will probably be neutralized (as will ours) and it will come down to stopping the run and defending passes once they are in the air.
Interesting point; most people don't think of wet/icy conditions helping the pass in any way, but that's one. They could still over power us, but I'd worry less about guys blowing BY Clark.

Joel
01-25-2014, 09:02 PM
Found an interesting article linked in the one zbeg linked on our WRs; it's not even primarily about Clark by name, but stills 20-22 show him blowing a block that cost us a TD pass, and about a dozen pics further down there's another play where he had an unflagged but obvious hold. Or, as the author introduced the first play,
Chandler Jones (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/152669/chandler-jones) quietly had a pretty good game and forced some holds that simply weren't called by the referees.
A few other holds WERE called, IIRC, including one where Manning had already gotten the ball away for a huge first down, only to be marched back 10 yds. If it's a choice between a drive-killing holding penalty or getting Manning leveled, I'll take the penalty, and Jones led NE with 11.5 sacks, but Clark must do better against Avril; the refs won't ignore many holds in the SB.

There's also play before those illustrating what frustrates me about Beadles, from our first drive (I remember, because it so enraged me:) Beadles pulled left to block outside for Moreno, but the TE solidly locked up the defender on that side yet Beadles went over to shove him in the shoulder anyway. By itself that would've been no big deal, but as Beadles was running over to double team a guy who didn't need it, a LB BLEW RIGHT BY HIM AND TACKLED MORENO FOR -5! Shortly thereafter, we punted; thank heaven for the D preventing a 7-0 deficit.

Also by way of a link in the article zbeg posted, a list of Football Outsiders offensive rankings where one that's worried me all season stands out starkly: While Denver was 1st in pts/drive (averaging right at a FG each) and 5th in PLAYS/drive, we were 23rd in TIME/drive. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff

Some will say it doesn't matter as long as we're getting points, but averaging 2:30/drive neither rests nor protects a fast-but-small D that tires quickly and can't afford ANY more injuries.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 02:54 AM
Beadles actually played rather well aside from that play, by his standards anyway.

aulaza
01-26-2014, 09:04 AM
He will be successful because manning will be throwing the ball before any seawhaks get near him. All clark has to do is win the battle for a few seconds on every pass play and he will have a great game, at least as far as pass protect goes. Mannings not been touched but once in the last two games. I dont think it will be any different next sunday

I think this is slightly optimistic. The Seahawks will likely cover better, if Manning has to get it out of his hands quickly every play because Clark is giving up pressure, it will make life hard for our receivers, and we won't be able to pass it deep. Remember it won't be the Pats or Chargers DB's this game. It will be a lot tougher in this game. Hopefully Clark can play his best game.

I'm also worried about Beadles, in pass pro as well as in the run game. I think Mebane probably wins that battle. McDaniel is a decent interior rusher as well. I think it will be key for us to hurry up and prevent them from substituting, especially for third downs.

NightTerror218
01-26-2014, 12:46 PM
Imo Clark is a key player in this game. We bumped at the line and pressure coming means timing will be more important. Clark needs to hold his side so that manning has time for we to get open.

Joel
01-26-2014, 02:23 PM
Beadles actually played rather well aside from that play, by his standards anyway.
Yeah, but remember: The whole problem with Beadles is that playing well by HIS standards won't win a SB.


I think this is slightly optimistic. The Seahawks will likely cover better, if Manning has to get it out of his hands quickly every play because Clark is giving up pressure, it will make life hard for our receivers, and we won't be able to pass it deep. Remember it won't be the Pats or Chargers DB's this game. It will be a lot tougher in this game. Hopefully Clark can play his best game.
Very good point: The Pats secondary isn't too bad, at least when Talib's in there with Dennard and Arrington, but SDs is notoriously awful; it's the Achilles heel on a team that rushes the passer better than I think most people believe, but can't benefit because the ball's out and caught too quickly. Against the thugs in Seattles secondary, Manning will likely need a few extra seconds; if he's forced to throw into a turnover-forcing D on his way to the ground, it could get ugly.


I'm also worried about Beadles, in pass pro as well as in the run game. I think Mebane probably wins that battle. McDaniel is a decent interior rusher as well. I think it will be key for us to hurry up and prevent them from substituting, especially for third downs.
Well, I feel good about Vasquez (the pass is his strongest suit) and Ramirez, and McDaniel will mostly go at them, apart from the occasional stunt. If Vasquez does well enough, hopefully Ramirez can help Beadles with Mebane, because I could easily see him overpowering either of them. I don't think Ramirez can handle Mebane one-on-one any better than Beadles though, and if it takes both of them to do the job Clark's pretty much on his own against Avril and Clemons; Beadles can't help him AND Ramirez at the same time.

You're right about the substitutions though; Avril's a lot better pass rusher than Clemons, so we don't want to give them time to make the swap. Unfortunately, that runs directly counter to our other need of sustaining drives so our sprinter D doesn't tire or suffer another injury when it can't afford ANY more.

Again, the FO stat: 5th most plays/drive, 23rd in time/drive. Averaging 2:30/drive may prevent substitutions, but we can't make our D play that much even if the offense ALWAYS scores TDs. And if they settle for many FGs or, worse, punts, well, "Hurry, hurry: Hurry up and PUNT" won't help anyone but Seattle.


Imo Clark is a key player in this game. We bumped at the line and pressure coming means timing will be more important. Clark needs to hold his side so that manning has time for we to get open.
^THAT^ Plus we need to run with at least enough success to keep the pass rush honest, and ideally enough to draw Chancellor into the box so there's less coverage, all of which leads back to Beadles. How I WISH Beadles had Clarks strength and Clark had his agility and quickness.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 02:29 PM
I don't think Mebane is the pass rush threat or run defender that Luiget is, hopefully Beadles standards are enough for one more game.

Joel
01-26-2014, 03:03 PM
I don't think Mebane is the pass rush threat or run defender that Luiget is, hopefully Beadles standards are enough for one more game.
I hope you're right on all points. I don't fear him much as a pass rusher, but that's a BIG dude, and Beadles has had trouble both with push and letting guys into our backfield on runs. It is what it is now; we won't sign any top Gs in the next 7 days, but only need ONE more win to be NFL Champs. I'll take that rare precious opportunity and hope the team seizes it with both hands.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 03:13 PM
I hope you're right on all points. I don't fear him much as a pass rusher, but that's a BIG dude, and Beadles has had trouble both with push and letting guys into our backfield on runs. It is what it is now; we won't sign any top Gs in the next 7 days, but only need ONE more win to be NFL Champs. I'll take that rare precious opportunity and hope the team seizes it with both hands.

Still, I am surprised the Broncos run left as often as they do.

Btw, imo the Broncos just signed a G prospect that has potential to replace Beadles next season, in Ramon Harewood. He's 6'-6"/341, so that's definitely a lot of wishful thinking on my part.

Joel
01-26-2014, 03:27 PM
Still, I am surprised the Broncos run left as often as they do.
You and me both, man. The only explanations I've been able to come up with are that they're either 1) playing the long chess game and trying to keep the D honest and/or 2) Beadles DOES pull and downfield block very well IF the back's not tackled 10 yds behind him. It's kind of an all-or-nothing thing with Beadles; it blows up a lot, often in the backfield, but if the back can break one or two tackles or make the first couple guys miss it can go for a big gain with a G pushing LBs and safeties downfield. Some of his best blocks (as you surely know) have been downfield on screens.


Btw, imo the Broncos just signed a G prospect that has potential to replace Beadles next season, in Ramon Harewood. He's 6'-6"/341, so that's definitely a lot of wishful thinking on my part.
Wow, I saw the signing, but didn't see his size: That is a BIG dude; unless it's mostly lard he could be the kind of road grader I love in a guard. Sadly, it won't help us next week. :(

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 03:38 PM
Big dude, engineering student.

Joel
01-26-2014, 04:02 PM
Big dude, engineering student.
Engineering? B-b-but... linemen are DUMB, none dumber than GUARDS! Not like those brilliant "skill" players who graduate from Stanford with high GPAs in the always-challenging communications program. :tongue: Seriously though, if he's huge AND smart, he could be a diamond in the rough; just hope most of his mass is muscle. You convinced me to dig up his NFL scouting report:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2010/profiles/ramon-harewood?id=1037349 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2010/profiles/ramon-harewood?id=1037349)

Apparently he's pretty raw, or was, because he's from Barbados and didn't play until college, but I liked this part: "Uses his huge frame to ride defensive ends to the outside and can hold up against the bull rush. Possesses impressive mobility for a big man when pulling." If he can deliver line surge AND pull, well, that's just ideal in a guard.

That said, his listed weaknesses DO include a few red flags: "...struggles with active looks from defensive fronts and to find his responsibility when pulling.... Does not consistently fire out low and drive defenders off the ball in the run game." If he CAN'T deliver line surge OR pull, well, all the measurables in the world don't matter.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 04:21 PM
Oh there's no doubt he'd come with red flags, but that's nothing new to Denver's LG spot since Stink retired. But like I said, it's wishful thinking on my part because, like you, he seemingly suits me right down to the ground. However, I do like the fact that he was a Newsome prospect at one point.

Denver has a lot of roster spots on the OL to fill in the next 7 months, maybe this is one of those that can provide some depth.

Joel
01-26-2014, 05:03 PM
Oh there's no doubt he'd come with red flags, but that's nothing new to Denver's LG spot since Stink retired. But like I said, it's wishful thinking on my part because, like you, he seemingly suits me right down to the ground. However, I do like the fact that he was a Newsome prospect at one point.

Denver has a lot of roster spots on the OL to fill in the next 7 months, maybe this is one of those that can provide some depth.
Quite possibly, and if he's got smarts and impressive mobility, the red flags may just be due to only playing football 4 years before he was drafted. That's coachable if he's got the work ethic and smarts, and he probably couldn't have cut it as an engineering student without both. So, maybe not a solution next year, but quite possible a stud for the following decade.

It's just really nice to see us going big at G; I love the ZBS to death, but that glaring Achilles heel has bitten us in the butt more than once.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 05:20 PM
Quite possibly, and if he's got smarts and impressive mobility, the red flags may just be due to only playing football 4 years before he was drafted. That's coachable if he's got the work ethic and smarts, and he probably couldn't have cut it as an engineering student without both. So, maybe not a solution next year, but quite possible a stud for the following decade.

It's just really nice to see us going big at G; I love the ZBS to death, but that glaring Achilles heel has bitten us in the butt more than once.
They can (and do) run Zone with big dudes, just not to Gibbs expectations. The Texans RG runs a healthy 340 too, Trent Williams is 320.

My whole point all along was they didn't have to be 340 and more than they have to be 285.

Edit, I loved the ZBS as much as anybody, it's Ben Hamilton and Matt Lepsis I do not miss.

Joel
01-26-2014, 06:12 PM
They can (and do) run Zone with big dudes, just not to Gibbs expectations. The Texans RG runs a healthy 340 too, Trent Williams is 320.
Yeah, love Houstons linemen, though more so when they still had Winston; part of why it was so easy to hop onboard with them was that Kubes built their offense a lot like our SB winners.


My whole point all along was they didn't have to be 340 and more than they have to be 285..
That's a good point, but size and speed/quickness/agility do tend to be inversely proportional. There are guys out there with elite quantities of both, but the combination's as rare in linemen as everywhere else. That's what made me so psyched about Vickersons tweet offseason-before-last that he'd added 50 lbs. while halving his body fat. Heck, even when it's NOT all fat, it's ALWAYS more mass, and moreso when it's muscle; it takes more energy to move that mass at the same acceleration and velocity, especially for 3+ hours.


Edit, I loved the ZBS as much as anybody, it's Ben Hamilton and Matt Lepsis I do not miss.
And people say MY standards are impossibly high. :tongue: When we had Hamilton and Lepsis the left was about the only place we COULD run with any consistency; trouble was, opponents figured that out very fast and sold out on that side, knowing Cooper Carlisle and George Foster were lumps. I remember an Arrowhead game, in '05, I think, when we got down inside their 10 on 2nd and short and I was thinking, Crap, here comes back-to-back runs to the left; it would be a good idea if KC didn't know that, too. Sure enough, they stuffed us twice, we kicked a FG and lost 31-27.

Remembering it prompted me to look up the game on Pro Football Reference: At 5:10 left in the 3rd during a 21-21 tie, we actually ran THREE straight times on 1st and G from the 6, the first two left and last one up the gut (PFR says the reverse, but also says DB Marques Anderson ran two of them; I pretty confidently remember it being Mike Anderson.)

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200512040kan.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200512040kan.htm)

I won't say it lost the game (there was still a full quarter where they outscored us 7-3, and Plummer throwing a pick on their goal line and another at our 20 hurt more) but it sure didn't win it. One could fairly argue we'd have reached the end zone with 1st and G at the 6 had Lepsis and Hamilton delivered more push, but I thought then and still do it had more to do with KCs freedom to stack the left side of the line since, when it counted most, we had no choice but to run behind our best G and T: Hamilton and Lepsis.

Simple Jaded
01-26-2014, 07:01 PM
Yeah I didn't expect elite talent at each position, just a better combination of the necessary skills. The Broncos habitually ignored issues with short yardage and goal line worthlessness, their success between the 20's got flushed down the toilet towards the end of Shanatan's era. Before finally taking the OL serious with the selection of Clady he constantly tried to recreate the underdog magic he had with the SB teams, his G's were pumped up FB's and his T's were pumped up TE's.

Joel
01-26-2014, 07:35 PM
Yeah I didn't expect elite talent at each position, just a better combination of the necessary skills. The Broncos habitually ignored issues with short yardage and goal line worthlessness, their success between the 20's got flushed down the toilet towards the end of Shanatan's era. Before finally taking the OL serious with the selection of Clady he constantly tried to recreate the underdog magic he had with the SB teams, his G's were pumped up FB's and his T's were pumped up TE's.
Some of it was just bad luck: Foster was huge and a first round pick, but useless; Kuper was the best G on the team until the Chiefs ripped his foot off at the end of 2011. Chris Myers is one of the best centers in the league down in Houston; no idea why we let him go (I can't imagine he was a cap casualty, but maybe.) I always assume EVERYONE from Notre Dame or the SEC is only half as good as his hype, but must admit even Ryan Harris has played well down in Houston; the only reason he's not the starter is because Duane Brown is so good.

I think part of the problem was Shanny only had so many draft picks, and at the start of the post-Elway era Manning quickly made it clear we needed to spend a lot of them on DBs, and the front four was such garbage it needed constant extensive attention. Rod Smith was the only good WR left from the SB teams, and Griese bombed, then Plummer imploded, so we had to spend picks there. It's the little Dutch boy with the leaky dyke again; we ran out of fingers before we ran out of holes; spending picks to move up when ALMOST making the playoffs made it worse.

I'll drop that line of thinking here though, else this would turn into an extended discussion of when to draft need and when to draft talent, and I just don't want to through that again. :tongue:

TXBRONC
01-27-2014, 12:15 AM
I don't think Mebane is the pass rush threat or run defender that Luiget is, hopefully Beadles standards are enough for one more game.

True Mebane isn't known for his pass rushing ability but in the past he's been considered solid run stuffer.

Joel
01-27-2014, 01:11 AM
True Mebane isn't known for his pass rushing ability but in the past he's been considered solid run stuffer.
This is what worries me with Beadles; if there's such a thing as a "turnstile run blocker," he's it, and hardly gets any line surge, ever. Again, my only hope there is that Vasquez locks up McDaniel without Bryant coming on a stunt or a LB getting by, so Ramirez can go help Beadles double Mebane. Maybe Ramirez can handle him one-on-one, but I personaly doubt he or Beadles can.

That leaves Clark by himself. I guess the good news there is that I'm not as worried about Mebane pass rushing nor Beadles failing to stop him, nor Clemons shoving Clark back to take out our RBs. So maybe Beadles can help Clark on passing downs and Ramirez can help Beadles on runs. Sure would be great if we had a LG OR LT who NEVER needed help; I miss Clady.

This years injuries, the NFCs deep great strength and KCs resurgence are a fine example of why teams can't afford to miss opportunities like ours last year. If we didn't have half a dozen of our best players out for the year, or Seattle did, I think we'd crush them (before the bye I even made a thread suggesting our D might've been better than our offense.) Instead, it's a lot harder than last years path, and when (in some cases IF) everyone comes back 100% from injury, many contracts will be up, plus teams like KC and Seattle won't just go away in 2014.

Tned
01-27-2014, 08:10 AM
He will be successful because manning will be throwing the ball before any seawhaks get near him. All clark has to do is win the battle for a few seconds on every pass play and he will have a great game, at least as far as pass protect goes. Mannings not been touched but once in the last two games. I dont think it will be any different next sunday

I was watching Inside the NFL this weekend and they had video of one of the NE lineman miked up. He was thoroughly discouraged. Was telling another defender it's like he was putting out all that energy for nothing, fights, fights, fights and then before he can get close, the ball is gone. (severe paraphrasing but that was the gist of it)

Joel
01-27-2014, 10:12 AM
I was watching Inside the NFL this weekend and they had video of one of the NE lineman miked up. He was thoroughly discouraged. Was telling another defender it's like he was putting out all that energy for nothing, fights, fights, fights and then before he can get close, the ball is gone. (severe paraphrasing but that was the gist of it)
That's definitely one of our biggest assets, but Chandler Jones and (occasionally) Ninkovich are about the only legit pass rushing threats NE has. Their front seven was missing more starters than even ours (and that's just the math; 4>3) so if the quote was from one of their DTs it's understandable; both those guys are scrub backups, and probably frustrated frequently.

Seattle's playoff sack total is pretty low for such a good D that was a top pass rushing team in the regular season, so I guess it comes down to how good one considers the Saints and '49ers offensive lines. Ours is pretty darned good in pass protection though, and Mannings quick reads and releases help immeasurably. I just hope they can run block well enough he doesn't have to do it alone, so the pass rush is a little slower since they have to worry about more than him, and Chancellor must keep an eye on the backfield instead of hanging back to play robber.

Seattles D isn't truly weak anywhere, and our #3 passing yds/att is much better than our #20 rushing yds/att, but IF we can their run D that's 7th in yds/att is a far more appealing target than their pass D that's #1 in yds/att. As much as our D relies on closing fast, and as many injuries as they've had, I just don't think they'll last a whole game unless we have several long drives, whether or not they get TDs or any points at all. Maybe Unrein's better than I credit; I'd still rather have Knighton and Williams out there together than either one with Unrein.

The weak links still look like Clark in pass protection and Beadles in run blocking; if both those guys do both those things well I'm confident in the rest being at least as good, and a Broncos win. Seattles passing attack is underrated, but if WE limit THEIR ToP like they'll try to do to us, they're not built for a shootout; it's hard to put up 40 pts with 3 yds and a cloud of dust.

TXBRONC
01-27-2014, 05:32 PM
This is what worries me with Beadles; if there's such a thing as a "turnstile run blocker," he's it, and hardly gets any line surge, ever. Again, my only hope there is that Vasquez locks up McDaniel without Bryant coming on a stunt or a LB getting by, so Ramirez can go help Beadles double Mebane. Maybe Ramirez can handle him one-on-one, but I personaly doubt he or Beadles can.

That leaves Clark by himself. I guess the good news there is that I'm not as worried about Mebane pass rushing nor Beadles failing to stop him, nor Clemons shoving Clark back to take out our RBs. So maybe Beadles can help Clark on passing downs and Ramirez can help Beadles on runs. Sure would be great if we had a LG OR LT who NEVER needed help; I miss Clady.

This years injuries, the NFCs deep great strength and KCs resurgence are a fine example of why teams can't afford to miss opportunities like ours last year. If we didn't have half a dozen of our best players out for the year, or Seattle did, I think we'd crush them (before the bye I even made a thread suggesting our D might've been better than our offense.) Instead, it's a lot harder than last years path, and when (in some cases IF) everyone comes back 100% from injury, many contracts will be up, plus teams like KC and Seattle won't just go away in 2014.

I never agree with your with your assessments about players. Beadles has been solid run blocker.

If you want to be a negative Nancy then I'm the wrong person to talk too.

Joel
01-27-2014, 05:46 PM
I never agree with your with your assessments about players. Beadles has been solid run blocker.
Downfield, sure; at the line, I strongly disagree. That's fine though; neither of us is obligated to agree with the other, and I can only hope he fully vindicates your faith Sunday.


If you want to be a negative Nancy then I'm the wrong person to talk too.
To borrow a great line, just hoping for the best but planning for the worst so all surprises are pleasant. Changes nothing either way here, but avoids stunned horror if the unthinkable happens.