Richard Sherman vs Elite WRs

[WARHORSE]

The best WR in the league comparable to DT is Brandon Marshall. Thats right up Shermans alley......haha

Too good to play off, to quick and strong to play up. DT is going to have a big day.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1931899-how-has-richard-sherman-really-performed-vs-top-nfl-receivers

[Joel]

The best WR in the league comparable to DT is Brandon Marshall. Thats right up Shermans alley......haha

Too good to play off, to quick and strong to play up. DT is going to have a big day.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1931899-how-has-richard-sherman-really-performed-vs-top-nfl-receivers
Except Baby TO's never had trouble fighting through jams, nor minded; he's been notorious for physical play and brushing off tacklers before and after catches practically since his first pro snap. Thomas, like all our WRs except (inexplicably) Welker, has had trouble with physical coverage all year.

I find nothing reassuring in an article listing all the top WRs Sherman shut out, saying he held Megatron to <50 yds, and ONLY Baby TO had any success against him. It's a long way from an article about Sherman shutting DOWN 5 of the NFLs best WRs to "DT will smoke him."

I'd rather work Maxwell, but Decker has to not drop or fumble balls, and even then, Maxwell's not trash, just not in Shermans league. Why throw at Sherman if there's better matchups?

[WARHORSE]

Except Baby TO's never had trouble fighting through jams, nor minded; he's been notorious for physical play and brushing off tacklers before and after catches practically since his first pro snap. Thomas, like all our WRs except (inexplicably) Welker, has had trouble with physical coverage all year.

I find nothing reassuring in an article listing all the top WRs Sherman shut out, saying he held Megatron to <50 yds, and ONLY Baby TO had any success against him. It's a long way from an article about Sherman shutting DOWN 5 of the NFLs best WRs to "DT will smoke him."

I'd rather work Maxwell, but Decker has to not drop or fumble balls, and even then, Maxwell's not trash, just not in Shermans league. Why throw at Sherman if there's better matchups?


Maybe. I dont see it like that. DT has not been the guy who tries to manhandle DBs infront of him. He has moves for a big man that catch people off guard. Imo, they will be telling him to get off him and run, using his excellent acceleration and route running to create separation.

That being said....I dont see us trying to throw his way simply because he has one on one on Sherman. There will be far better matchups to expose. Sherman, if true to form, will stay on the left side. Big mistake imo.

I believe there will be times when Peyton will go at Sherman if they get the right look......not because I think DT will outphysical him.....but because he will run by him.

[Simple Jaded]

If the Seahawks don't move Sherman around I wonder how much he'll see of DT anyway, probably see just as much of
Decker in that case.

[Joel]

Maybe. I dont see it like that. DT has not been the guy who tries to manhandle DBs infront of him. He has moves for a big man that catch people off guard. Imo, they will be telling him to get off him and run, using his excellent acceleration and route running to create separation.

That being said....I dont see us trying to throw his way simply because he has one on one on Sherman. There will be far better matchups to expose. Sherman, if true to form, will stay on the left side. Big mistake imo.

I believe there will be times when Peyton will go at Sherman if they get the right look......not because I think DT will outphysical him.....but because he will run by him.
Possible; DTs 40 time is about 0.15 seconds faster, but that's part of why Sherman will try to jam him. That's always a double-edged sword, because the DB can't play off, so if the WR beats the jam, he's gone. Then again, Thomas and Chancellor are both excellent safeties, but they can't be everywhere, so it we get more than one guy loose deep and the line protects Manning, we could exploit that. The funny thing is Thomas and Decker have comparable speed, but I don't think Maxwell (who's faster) can handle DT; wouldn't mind if they tried that though.

I still like Decker on Maxwell in general, but as long as Clark can keep Clemons and Avril from rushing Mannings throws and Mebane doesn't flatten Beadles, he'll find whoever gets free.

[MOtorboat]

Possible; DTs 40 time is about 0.15 seconds faster, but that's part of why Sherman will try to jam him. That's always a double-edged sword, because the DB can't play off, so if the WR beats the jam, he's gone. Then again, Thomas and Chancellor are both excellent safeties, but they can't be everywhere, so we can get more than one guy loose deep and the line protects Manning, we could exploit that. The funny thing is Thomas and Decker have comparable speed, but I don't think Maxwell (who's faster) can handle DT; wouldn't mind if they tried that though.

I still like Decker on Maxwell in general, but as long as Clark can keep Clemons and Avril from rushing Mannings throws and Mebane doesn't flatten Beadles, he'll find whoever gets free.

Neither players' 40 time four or five years ago has anything to do with what will happen next Sunday.

Denver needs to use bunch formations and medium cross routes to nullify the man coverage and the cover-one, man on the outside Seattle WANTS to play. Make Seattle play zone or man/switches on the outside with crossing routes underneath and at medium depth.

Also...get Moreno open.

[Poet]

Mo, both of those guys are young enough that their 40's times are probably accurate. I cannot agree that the speed of those guys is irrelevant.

[Simple Jaded]

We don't know DT's 40 time, he didn't get to run in the draft process.

[aberdien]

I remember our receivers being soft multiple games this season and being more focused on looking for PI calls than catching the ball, so hopefully the non-soft version shows up. Or hopefully we get PI calls.

[Poet]

We don't know DT's 40 time, he didn't get to run in the draft process.

4.38
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/draft/prospect?prospectId=335172

[Simple Jaded]

4.38
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/draft/prospect?prospectId=335172

Lies!

[MOtorboat]

Mo, both of those guys are young enough that their 40's times are probably accurate. I cannot agree that the speed of those guys is irrelevant.

Game speed and 40 speed are two separate animals. Can Thomas get more acceleration out of the jam than Sherman? Can Decker get more acceleration out of the jam than Sherman? That's the relevant question.

[Dreadnought]

Game speed and 40 speed are two separate animals. Can Thomas get more acceleration out of the jam than Sherman? Can Decker get more acceleration out of the jam than Sherman? That's the relevant question.

And BOTH those guys have been very physical getting off the LOS in the second half of the season and the playoffs, including some well timed and subtle push-offs

[spikerman]

DT has got to realize that he probably won't get a lot of catches this game. That's ok, his job is to take coverage away from the other players. The difference between the Broncos and those other teams the Seahawks have played is that when the 'Hawks shut down the primary receiver the QB had limited options; that won't be the case with the Broncos. Peyton is going to find out who their 4th best cover guy is and start picking on him.

[Joel]

Neither players' 40 time four or five years ago has anything to do with what will happen next Sunday.

Denver needs to use bunch formations and medium cross routes to nullify the man coverage and the cover-one, man on the outside Seattle WANTS to play. Make Seattle play zone or man/switches on the outside with crossing routes underneath and at medium depth.

Also...get Moreno open.
Get Moreno running lanes to slow the pass rush and draw down Chancellor, and keep Clemons/Avril off Mannings neck long enough to run a few deep zone-busters. They play those short-to-medium routes pretty well, because they've got a good secondary and a couple good coverage LBs. Since we like running those short crosses, quick slants/outs and screens anyway, they may be tempted to just plop everyone in the middle of the field, trusting their safeties to cover the deep ball and Sherman/Maxwell to cover DT/Decker wherever.

If so, and our protection's good, all that's a pretty good reason to go deep early, put up 21 pts and see if a young inexperienced team that's faced little adversity buckles under the pressure. Even if we throw a pick or two, if it's 40-50 yds downfield that's no worse than a punt: It's a missed opportunity, but they don't get great field position; as long as Lynch doesn't run all over us Seattle's not the kind of offense that regularly has 80 yd TD drives. That BR report articles main point on Marshall vs. Sherman is valid: He's good, but lacks elite speed, so can be beaten deep.

It's funny, in some ways Sherman is a slower Champ, yet while many ask if Champ's still got it Sherman's calling himself the best in the NFL. :lol:

[Joel]

I remember our receivers being soft multiple games this season and being more focused on looking for PI calls than catching the ball, so hopefully the non-soft version shows up. Or hopefully we get PI calls.
That's what worried about this potential matchup all season; that, and Seattle DBs grabbing, shoving, practicing how to lay guys out without getting flagged and proudly calling themselves the Legion of Boom in the No Boom League. It's also why I'm infuriated Belicheat continued working the refs even after his team was eliminated: I don't want the refs handcuffing our WRs because a hypocritical sore loser thinks our pint-sized slot man tried to get concussed for the 3rd time in 2 months, while ignoring Seattles 'roid-raging thugs because "both teams do it; let 'em play."


And BOTH those guys have been very physical getting off the LOS in the second half of the season and the playoffs, including some well timed and subtle push-offs
They've gotten better about it (Decker did an awesome job @Arrowhead: When shoved he just used to get a release as he shoved back, and caught a 40 yd pass in stride so a couple steps took him into the end zone..) I hope they've finally figured out EVERY DB will mug them because they can't ALL be COVERED, and respond accordingly.

Of course, they've drawn more than a couple OFFENSIVE PIs for trying, and this crap of Belicheat's may not affect that, but CAN'T possibly help.

[MOtorboat]

DT has got to realize that he probably won't get a lot of catches this game. That's ok, his job is to take coverage away from the other players. The difference between the Broncos and those other teams the Seahawks have played is that when the 'Hawks shut down the primary receiver the QB had limited options; that won't be the case with the Broncos. Peyton is going to find out who their 4th best cover guy is and start picking on him.

The Seahawks haven't even played a team with a legit No. 2 receiver, let alone 4 legit threats.

[UnderArmour]

The Seahawks haven't even played a team with a legit No. 2 receiver, let alone 4 legit threats.

They have, actually. They played Andre Johnson/friends and got burned (until Schaub's pick 6). They played against Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton and got burned. Matt Ryan did a number on them last year in the 4th quarter as well.

As the 49ers found out early in Super Bowl last year, their defense was just as much a product of the lack of firepower in the NFC as it was their physicality. They struggled right up until the lights went out in New Orelans and didn't seem to have any answer for the Ravens passing game. New Orleans is their signature "we can shut down any offense" win, but the Saints offense this year is more a product of media-hype than it is on-field production. I just don't think Seattle's secondary is as good as they hype themselves up to be, especially without Brandon Browner.

[MOtorboat]

They have, actually. They played Andre Johnson/friends and got burned (until Schaub's pick 6). They played against Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton and got burned. Matt Ryan did a number on them last year in the 4th quarter as well.

As the 49ers found out early in Super Bowl last year, their defense was just as much a product of the lack of firepower in the NFC as it was their physicality. They struggled right up until the lights went out in New Orelans and didn't seem to have any answer for the Ravens passing game. New Orleans is their signature "we can shut down any offense" win, but the Saints offense this year is more a product of media-hype than it is on-field production. I just don't think Seattle's secondary is as good as they hype themselves up to be, especially without Brandon Browner.

Fair enough, although I'm not sure the Texans have a legit No. 2. I like DeAndre Hopkins, but he's not there yet. Point taken on Indy.

Either way, whether you think they've played an offense similar to Denver's or not (I think the closest is Arizona with Fitzgerald), they can be beat.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't see any comparisons to DT and Marshall. Marshall is a better WR, that is all I know as far as that goes. I also don't see the legitemacy on the complaints on Decker's drops. The guy has been Peyton's go-to guy all season long, and there is a reason for that, and it isn't because Peyton feels he drops too many passes.

[atwater27]

I am confident that Manning has studied and is still studying Sherman's tendencies and communicating that to Demaryius. Hours and hours of game film. I think this game will come down to whether the NFL decides to enforce the defensive holding that Seattle does more, or enforce the (not so)illegal picks that we do more.

[zbeg]

One thing to keep in mind is that Sherman plays the left side no matter who is lined up there. The only time all season he moved off the LCB side and followed a receiver was in week 2 against the 49ers when he was on Boldin. So the Broncos can move guys around and have Decker on Sherman instead, leaving a more favorable matchup for DT.

I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation why Sherman isn't able to play anything but LCB. You'd think "the best cornerback in the game" would have more versatility than that. Also, why the 49ers put Crabtree on Sherman's side for the last play of the game is completely beyond me.

[Tned]

I posted in another thread that I believed that Sherman only played the left side. This really isn't unusual.

Champ has typically played the LCB spot during his career and rarely changed that due to matchups. Typically, if they did move him for a matchup, it was to move him inside, not to the right side.

[slim]

I remember our receivers being soft multiple games this season and being more focused on looking for PI calls than catching the ball, so hopefully the non-soft version shows up. Or hopefully we get PI calls.

I think they have put that behind them. I know DT has...dude has been BA in the playoffs.

Also, 40 times are meaningless

[slim]

I posted in another thread that I believed that Sherman only played the left side. This really isn't unusual.

Champ has typically played the LCB spot during his career and rarely changed that due to matchups. Typically, if they did move him for a matchup, it was to move him inside, not to the right side.

I really hope this is true. DT on Maxwell = Super Bowl MVP for DT.

[Ravage!!!]

I really hope this is true. DT on Maxwell = Super Bowl MVP for DT.

Greg Cosell was saying this the other day on the Cowherd show after breaking down the game film. Sherman doesnt' follow a guy to both sides of the field. He plays on the left side 90+% of the time, and on OCCASION will go line-up man-to-man with a specific WR. But the Seahawks are a zone-based defense, but play that zone VERY well.

I remember this being funny and wish I had Zam's phone number because Zam used to knock Champ for not being lined up on on the #1 WR on every play.

[slim]

Greg Cosell was saying this the other day on the Cowherd show after breaking down the game film. Sherman doesnt' follow a guy to both sides of the field. He plays on the left side 90+% of the time, and on OCCASION will go line-up man-to-man with a specific WR. But the Seahawks are a zone-based defense, but play that zone VERY well.

I remember this being funny and wish I had Zam's phone number because Zam used to knock Champ for not being lined up on on the #1 WR on every play.

Clay used to bitch about it too.

I hate it when Clay is right.

[Ravage!!!]

One thing to keep in mind is that Sherman plays the left side no matter who is lined up there. The only time all season he moved off the LCB side and followed a receiver was in week 2 against the 49ers when he was on Boldin. So the Broncos can move guys around and have Decker on Sherman instead, leaving a more favorable matchup for DT.

I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation why Sherman isn't able to play anything but LCB. You'd think "the best cornerback in the game" would have more versatility than that. Also, why the 49ers put Crabtree on Sherman's side for the last play of the game is completely beyond me.

Doesn't have anything to do with the lack of versatility.. and has EVERYTHING to do with defensive philosophy. THey don't play cover 1 on every play, they play ZONE defense mainly...and only on occasion will play man-up. That's not a knock on Sherman, and playing Man-to-man gives the advantage to the offense for making big plays. The Seahawks are a VERY good Zone team and run their defense extremely well. They give tight windows.

[MOtorboat]

Greg Cosell was saying this the other day on the Cowherd show after breaking down the game film. Sherman doesnt' follow a guy to both sides of the field. He plays on the left side 90+% of the time, and on OCCASION will go line-up man-to-man with a specific WR. But the Seahawks are a zone-based defense, but play that zone VERY well.

I remember this being funny and wish I had Zam's phone number because Zam used to knock Champ for not being lined up on on the #1 WR on every play.

The Seahawks corners play man-to-man, not zone. They like to keep Thomas in a single-high zone and some underneath zones with linebackers, but their corners are playing man, and switching assignments on bunch formations.

Just because Sherman doesn't move with the No. 1 doesn't mean it's a zone. Zam's an idiot, don't listen to him.

[Ravage!!!]

The Seahawks corners play man-to-man, not zone. They like to keep Thomas in a single-high zone and some underneath zones with linebackers, but their corners are playing man, and switching assignments on bunch formations.

Just because Sherman doesn't move with the No. 1 doesn't mean it's a zone. Zam's an idiot, don't listen to him.

No. .the seahawks are a ZONE based defense, not a man-to-man defense.

[Poet]

Game speed and 40 speed are two separate animals. Can Thomas get more acceleration out of the jam than Sherman? Can Decker get more acceleration out of the jam than Sherman? That's the relevant question.

I know that, Mo and in other threads I've posted about that.

[Poet]

No. .the seahawks are a ZONE based defense, not a man-to-man defense.

I believe their corners mostly play man. They do run some zone, though. I remember the camera panned to Sherman after a passing TD from Kaepernick and Sherman was in zone. Sherman was not involved in the play, though.

[chazoe60]

No. .the seahawks are a ZONE based defense, not a man-to-man defense.
You sure about that Rav? I keep hearing about their man-to-man

[Joel]

The Seahawks corners play man-to-man, not zone. They like to keep Thomas in a single-high zone and some underneath zones with linebackers, but their corners are playing man, and switching assignments on bunch formations.


No. .the seahawks are a ZONE based defense, not a man-to-man defense.
If I had Seattles D I'd put the top 2 CBs on islands vs. the top 2 WRs BUT a safety in a deep zone, MLB in middle zone and the OLBs and other safety in short/mid zones, especially since so many teams (e.g. us and NE) now love working underneath routes with crosses/slants. That doesn't mean the primary CBs play zone (guys like Champ and DRC rarely play zone to leave top WRs in other areas to lesser DBs.) It also doesn't mean the deep safety or MLB play man (again, both are vanishingly rare.)

So if we're to make a definitive call, it must be on what Chancellor does at SS, and what the OLBs and nickel/dimebacks do, because everyone else generally does what 4-3 personnel does. That sounds pretty close to what MOtorboat's saying, but doesn't conflict with what Ravage!!! is saying either. It's less about what they're playing than where we look.

[slim]

You sure about that Rav? I keep hearing about their man-to-man

All teams play a mix of zone and man-to-man :listen:

[slim]

However, they are known for playing cover 3 (3 deep zone). That is their bread and butter.

[Ravage!!!]

I believe their corners mostly play man. They do run some zone, though. I remember the camera panned to Sherman after a passing TD from Kaepernick and Sherman was in zone. Sherman was not involved in the play, though.


You sure about that Rav? I keep hearing about their man-to-man

I'm going by the game break-downs of Greg Cosell. He was talking about the Seahawk defense and there system of defense and how that matches upd to the Bronco offense, and then was asked how well the CBs for Seattle' matched up for a 1-on-1 bases. He explained t heir defensive philosphy and went into detail and depth about their zone defense, and how their defense is centered around that zone, and not man. He did say that on occasion, they will break into cover 1, but they just play their zone VERY well. He went on and on about how well they played that zone, and its why Sherman didn't/doesn't switch sides of the field (this is where I thought about Zam and how much he complained about Bailey not switching sides).

Now Im not breaking down game tape, but Cosell does that for a living and is pretty well respected for how he breaks down the tape.... so I'm truly just going by HIS words.

[Ravage!!!]

also.. lets distinguish between "man" and "zone". If a man is IN my zone, I'm taking him. If he is the ONLY WR in my zone, I'm man-up on him. If I'm in zone D, and they line up trips to the other side, I could be cover 1 in my zone, but if he crosses, I let him go (how far I follow depends on safety coverage call). I know that everyone here knows this, but I"m just saying that sometimes there is a very fine line between the two defenses, and sometimes the largest change/distintion between the two is the safeties. Also, when you watch a replay and the guy is following the WR, doesn't mean he's in cover 1. Again, I know you guys know this, but somethings a 'instand replay' can be deceiving.

[Poet]

I believe their corners mostly play man. They do run some zone, though. I remember the camera panned to Sherman after a passing TD from Kaepernick and Sherman was in zone. Sherman was not involved in the play, though.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/greg-cosell-playoff-film-review-let-check-richard-213846006--nfl.html


"The difference between Sherman and, say, Darrelle Revis when he was with the Jets is the Seahawks aren't predominantly a man-to-man team. They are mostly a zone-coverage team, with "Cover 3" being their most popular call. So Sherman doesn’t play press man coverage on every snap like Revis where you say, "He’s your guy, follow him and cover him with no help." Seahawks don’t play defense like that. But Sherman is still a great player."


Reading that article, it seems like the Seattle strength is that they leave Sherman out to the left to play against the best WR. If that WR is in fact on the other side, they're okay with it because their zone defense is filled with intelligent playmakers like their safeties and a solid number two corner. Sherman plays a lot of man-to-man in their schemes.

Ravage, you're definitely correct about the instant replay leading to a misunderstanding of a situation. A lot of time a cornerback looks like he got burned when in reality the safety was out of position and didn't have help 'over the top'. Or, a lot of times that same thing can happen, but the CORNER made the assignment mistake and it looks like the safety is a jackass.