Chris Harris injury could be huge [Archive]

Joel

01-13-2014, 10:33 AM

I agree losing Harris would be huge, but it doesn't follow that Jammer's garbage, nor that Webster or Carter are better options. There's a reason Champ's doing better in the slot than on outside, and it's the same reason Jammer can't go step-for-step downfield with a rookie speedster.

Jammer's a savvy vet but can't go the length of the field with track stars anymore.
Webster's a talented rookie but still gets taken to school by many savvy vets.
Carter's fast enough for most guys and doesn't routinely get fooled, but grabs and/or arrives early.

Each has strengths and weaknesses, but all are good enough to play dimeback and cover fourth and fifth receiving options: They just aren't starters. Outside on sprinters, I would take Carter over the other two just because he's more experienced than Webster (and doesn't have a fractured thumb) and faster than Jammer. Inside—or outside on WRs who aren't blazing fast—our best option's a guy who started against his opponents best WR for a decade.

Also, MileHighCrew has a point that Rivers went against Jammer often enough in practice to know his vulnerabilities as well as anyone (though is main vulnerability is still being 34 years old, and Rivers doesn't have to be a rocket surgeon to know that, especially down 3 scores in the fourth and forced to throw deep ANYWAY.)

The sad truth is modern NFL teams need 3 starting quality CBs, not just two; the passing-friendly rules, "possession" slot receivers and basketball player "TE"s who've never even SEEN a blocking sled demand no less. We actually have the NFLs best starting trio, IMHO (though Talib, Dennard and Arrington are pretty good, too) WHEN THEY'RE ALL HEALTHY. Unfortunately, we've seen when Champ, then DRC and now Harris were hurt that a pretty good dimeback isn't good enough to be a starting CB in this league.

The good news is that NEs receiver depth is worse than our CB depth (which has as much as the weather to do with why the press has suddenly dubbed them a great running team.) Edelman's about on par with Decker (again IMHO) and I think we'd all be terrified of next weeks game if Decker were our #1 WR and the #2 were an average guy like Amendola. After that NE only has a backup RB, scrub TE and a bunch of rookie WRs; we ought to be able to handle that, especially if we get any kind of pass rush.

If we win that game, Harris and everyone else will have two weeks off to rest and get better before they must play again. I hope and pray he's fully healthy soon regardless.

Buff

01-13-2014, 10:49 AM

Harris is underrated. Hate to lose him headed into a game against Brady. Jammer needs to be on a short leash this week. Give his reps to Carter if he struggles at all.

Dzone

01-13-2014, 10:50 AM

Chris Harris was nowhere to be seen after his injury. Could be bad. Next man up. Jammer. Carter. Webster. Bolden. We have to beat the hell out of Brady

slim

01-13-2014, 10:50 AM

How would you guys feel about moving Champ back outside?

Buff

01-13-2014, 10:54 AM

How would you guys feel about moving Champ back outside?

Can't be worse than Jammer yesterday.

BroncoNut

01-13-2014, 10:55 AM

How would you guys feel about moving Champ back outside?

sorry to those still hanging onto yesterday's successes, but Champ is a liability out there

slim

01-13-2014, 10:57 AM

sorry to those still hanging onto yesterday's successes, but Champ is a liability out there

As Buff said, he can't play any worse than Jammer did.

Mike

01-13-2014, 11:04 AM

It would be ideal if Champ was ready to take his spot back, but I would even rather see Webster or Carter out there than Jammer.

Denver Native (Carol)

01-13-2014, 11:05 AM

Chris Harris has already undergone his MRI exam Monday morning and is at the Broncos’ facility. Now he and the team await the results.

There is fear Harris has suffered a serious knee injury and if realized, the Broncos would have to play without one of their most invaluable defensive players Sunday against the New England Patriots — and Super Bowl XLVIII if the Broncos make it that far.

The Broncos have endured injuries to Ryan Clady, Von Miller, Kevin Vickerson, Rahim Moore and Derek Wolfe. The team has overcome mainly because it has been able to keep Peyton Manning healthy.

But Harris will be especially difficult to replace. Or did you not see the Broncos’ fourth quarter Sunday against the San Diego Chargers?

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2014/01/13/broncos-fear-chris-harris-knee-injury-is-serious/25034/

Dzone

01-13-2014, 11:14 AM

Only 2 defensive players who have played over 800 snaps this season: Harris and Trevathan

GEM

01-13-2014, 11:19 AM

Harris is underrated. Hate to lose him headed into a game against Brady. Jammer needs to be on a short leash this week. Give his reps to Carter if he struggles at all.

I'd rather have Carter out there than Jammer. Jammer looked lost and even if he figures that out, he's too slow to get there.

Traveler

01-13-2014, 11:31 AM

Champ will have to step up his game I guess. The team needs him. Hopefully JDR doesn't have too play much zone this Sunday.

Buff

01-13-2014, 11:32 AM

I'd rather have Carter out there than Jammer. Jammer looked lost and even if he figures that out, he's too slow to get there.

Carter has been very underwhelming this year too. But I think I trust his cover abilities a little bit more. Is Webster still hurt?

OrangeHoof

01-13-2014, 11:36 AM

Brady's big weapons are Amendola and Edelman, not speed merchants. We need guys who will be in the right position and break up what's coming.

Denver Native (Carol)

01-13-2014, 11:41 AM

Champ will have to step up his game I guess. The team needs him. Hopefully JDR doesn't have too play much zone this Sunday.Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 16h

Champ Bailey, still on a "pitch count," is playing as the Broncos' nickel/slot corner. Jammer replaced Harris outside opposite DRC.

In regards to Champ, the coaches will need to make a determination if they still want to keep him on a "pitch count"

silkamilkamonico

01-13-2014, 11:44 AM

Losing Harris would be huge, but the Patriots couldn't try to spread us out if they wanted too.

Seattle doesn't have the type of passing offense that can take advantage of mismatches with their WR's.

San Fran could take advantage of us without Harris, but I don't think they are winning at Seattle.

Losing Harris would suck, but at least we won't be facing teams with 2+ dominant WR's, like a mirror image of us for example.

Hawgdriver

01-13-2014, 11:58 AM

Brady's big weapons are Amendola and Edelman, not speed merchants. We need guys who will be in the right position and break up what's coming.

Would anyone notice if we gave Luke Kuechly a duffle bag of 100's and disguised him as Paris Lenon? Someone forward this to Elway.

GEM

01-13-2014, 12:10 PM

Carter has been very underwhelming this year too. But I think I trust his cover abilities a little bit more. Is Webster still hurt?

Webster was active yesterday, but he's in a cast still. Hurts the ball hawking ability? I dunno. He got beat like a drum when he was in there before. The knock on Carter is the PI's. He's too aggressive, but I'd rather have aggressive than just beat. Ideally Harris is ok...cause everyone behind him is light years behind him. :(

Tned

01-13-2014, 12:11 PM

Torn acl per Lindsey

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Forum Runner

Hawgdriver

01-13-2014, 12:14 PM

Oh shit.

Buff

01-13-2014, 12:14 PM

Shit. The worst part about two of our best defenders tearing their ACLs is how late in the season it happened for both of them. Neither Harris or Miller will be 100% for next season.

GEM

01-13-2014, 12:17 PM

Well that just sucks.

Zweems56

01-13-2014, 12:22 PM

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

tripp

01-13-2014, 12:28 PM

Losing Chris Harris hurts a lot, but on the bight side thank Christ it wasn't DRC.

Slick

01-13-2014, 12:31 PM

Carter is way more athletic than Jammer, but me makes some dumb mistakes. What is the lesser of the two evils? Jammer is a veteran who physically gets beat.

Zweems56

01-13-2014, 12:35 PM

tomjonesrocks

01-13-2014, 12:36 PM

Insane. Another game another player done for the year.

G_Money

01-13-2014, 12:48 PM

BigDaddyBronco

01-13-2014, 01:00 PM

I don't remember a year where we had so many major injuries. I don't want to hear anymore shit out of NE about how beat up they are.

jhildebrand

01-13-2014, 01:04 PM

Champ and DRC outside with the inside being Kayvon, Carter, Jammer in that order. Perhaps let Adams and Huff jam their WR's at the line and let the DB's clean it up on the back end thus taking a page out of Belichick's book.

zbeg

01-13-2014, 01:19 PM

Next man up, I guess. I just don't have the energy to stress about this stuff anymore after the 123098213th injury. I survived the Von injury without jumping off a ledge, so screw it.

One good thing is that the remaining three teams in the playoffs all have very little depth at WR, so this situation isn't as bad as it could be. Silver linings and all that.

ShaneFalco

01-13-2014, 01:56 PM

You cant just throw cbs into the nickel slot, my guess is we keep champ inside and let carter get a run on the outside

BroncoNut

01-13-2014, 01:58 PM

Ummm Indy was handing out huge points to anyone that played them lol.

except us.

Zweems56

01-13-2014, 02:38 PM

I'm glad Kayvon got work early in this year. We'll need him and Champ to have a good shot now, cuz we are gonna miss Harris something fierce and Jammer is NOT the answer. Our safeties are gonna have to bring their lunchpails.

Spot on as always G. My guess is Champ stays inside as he has the most recent experience in the nickel. Kayvon takes over outside (before he went out, he was playing champ's position on every nickel down, and Harris slid inside. How champ is feeling this week will probably largely dictate where we go. If he's feeling 100%, replace harris completely with him. Start outside and swing to the inside for nickel packages. Dime, bring in carter and leave Jammer at home. My guess is that Jammer played this week because JDR figured he had an inside track on the working of Rivers's mind.

Nacho is going to have to bring his hardhat for sure. Tired of this injury scare crap with him. Early in the season he was popping people without a second's hesitation, now he can hardly make it through a series without grabbing something on himself. I know it's late in the season, but I have some high expectations for the kid.

Ziggy

01-13-2014, 02:51 PM

DenBronx

01-13-2014, 03:46 PM

Losing Chris Harris hurts a lot, but on the bight side thank Christ it wasn't DRC.

This is incorrect. Harris's flexibility is invaluable. His run support is spectacular. DRC is a man coverage guy and THATS IT. Harris is all that and more. He's been quietly playing out of his mind. He doesn't have the flash of DRC but he's infinitely more consistent. This is the biggest hit our defense could possibly take in a single player at this point.

This is correct.

Harris was our best DB. He was covering the Chargers most explosive WR yesterday and was pitching a shutout. As soon as he got injured and Jammer came in SD was able to throw it.

Yeah huge huge huge blow to our defense.

Id put Champ back on the outside with either Kayvon or Carter in the nickle.

DenBronx

01-13-2014, 03:50 PM

I don't remember a year where we had so many major injuries. I don't want to hear anymore shit out of NE about how beat up they are.

Yeah big name injuries too. Harris is probably the leagues best nickle, Clady is a top 3 LT, Miller is also top 3 at his position.

Joel

01-13-2014, 04:24 PM

Kayvon is the most talented and physical of the 3 corners left. He's also far better in run support. Put the kid in and let him jam his guy at the line. The biggest factor will be pressure on Brady. The Broncos did an outstanding job of getting pressure on Rivers the whole game. Let's get rid of this zone coverage garbage and let these guys man up.
He also got destroyed every week as a starting CB, starting with when he came into replace DRC against the first ballot HoF QB we're facing next week. Webster's very talented but also very green, and the difference in the playoffs is the Everson Walls who set NFL records after giving up The Catch as a rookie, ending the Dallas Dynasty and beginning SFs at the same time.

Take Champ and Jammers experience starting against Brady in the playoffs, whichever one of them lines up outside. Amendola clocked a 4.58 40 at the Combine; he's not blowing by either one of them, so the critical difference is between what they've learned about themselves, Brady and other opponents that Webster might have later, but doesn't have yet. If we were facing Pro Bowl track star WRs it might be worth risking Carters grabs and early hits to avoid Champ or Jammer getting outrun, but we're not so it's not.

Hawgdriver

01-13-2014, 05:58 PM

He also got destroyed every week as a starting CB, starting with when he came into replace DRC against the first ballot HoF QB we're facing next week. Webster's very talented but also very green, and the difference in the playoffs is the Everson Walls who set NFL records after giving up The Catch as a rookie, ending the Dallas Dynasty and beginning SFs at the same time.

Take Champ and Jammers experience starting against Brady in the playoffs, whichever one of them lines up outside. Amendola clocked a 4.58 40 at the Combine; he's not blowing by either one of them, so the critical difference is between what they've learned about themselves, Brady and other opponents that Webster might have later, but doesn't have yet. If we were facing Pro Bowl track star WRs it might be worth risking Carters grabs and early hits to avoid Champ or Jammer getting outrun, but we're not so it's not.

Did you just say that Webster has the experience of playing the position this very season against this very team, and he lacks the experience you want at the position?

NightTerror218

01-13-2014, 06:08 PM

Pats best wr are slot guys. Are you really worried about thompkins on the outside? Man it up.

I am going to say webster is prob best option. Man up on them. Drc on Edelman, bailey on amendola and webster take an outside guy. I do not want carter giving up PI to guys who could very well drop the pass.

CrazyHorse

01-13-2014, 06:35 PM

Next man up. The Pats hung 43 on the Colts without Gronk. Just got to play through it.

Would that still be your mantra if Manning went down?

Shit. The worst part about two of our best defenders tearing their ACLs is how late in the season it happened for both of them. Neither Harris or Miller will be 100% for next season.

Good. They'll get healthy just in time for us to make run at defending our title.

nevcraw

01-13-2014, 06:48 PM

DRC / Champ / Webster /Carter - done..

The key will be stopping the run. do that and they will be much better in coverage.

nevcraw

01-13-2014, 06:50 PM

Now more than ever wish we had paid Charles woodson that extra mil he wanted..

CrazyHorse

01-13-2014, 06:58 PM

Now more than ever wish we had paid Charles woodson that extra mil he wanted..

Didn't we sign Drayton Florence too? He got cut though. Hope that was the right decision.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

01-13-2014, 07:00 PM

I am concerned about our decimated defense. However, at the end of the day, their defense has lost a lot of talent too, and I firmly believe we can outscore their offense.

Shazam!

01-13-2014, 07:30 PM

This squad has become extremely resilient and overcame other injuries that we thought would be devastating. Fox and his staff will find a way. As long as Peyton is healthy, the Broncos will be in this game.

Joel

01-13-2014, 07:37 PM

Did you just say that Webster has the experience of playing the position this very season against this very team, and he lacks the experience you want at the position?
No. A month of replacing an INJURED starter isn't the same as BEING the first team starter Jammer was each time SD faced Brady in the playoffs.

Webster got abused every game—almost every PLAY—for a month straight when he tried to replace DRC; it was pathetic. In a year or two, he may (or may not) be part of the NFLs best CB trio, but right now he's just a talented but raw rookie. He got taken to school so many times by so many people in November and December he's halfway to a second degree (his first was in Health Science, so maybe he can work in the Burn Ward, given all his already vast experience with getting torched.)

He impressed me early on secondary and tertiary WRs—enough I preferred him to Carter—but his stretch starting from the second half @NE to the first half vs. SD in Denver showed he's not ready to play #1/2 WRs yet. Against speedsters I'll take Carter because PIs are marginally better than TDs; against anyone else, I'll take Jammers decade of experience as a #1 CB, including multiple playoff games against Brady. In neither case would I take Webster as anything but a dimeback; maybe next year, or the year after, but not in the 2013 AFCCG or SB XLVIII.

Joel

01-13-2014, 07:38 PM

Didn't we sign Drayton Florence too? He got cut though. Hope that was the right decision.
You see him flat run past Kaepernick on that TD Sunday? Yeah; he got cut for a reason.

Hawgdriver

01-13-2014, 08:04 PM

No. A month of replacing an INJURED starter isn't the same as BEING the first team starter Jammer was each time SD faced Brady in the playoffs.

Webster got abused every game—almost every PLAY—for a month straight when he tried to replace DRC; it was pathetic. In a year or two, he may (or may not) be part of the NFLs best CB trio, but right now he's just a talented but raw rookie. He got taken to school so many times by so many people in November and December he's halfway to a second degree (his first was in Health Science, so maybe he can work in the Burn Ward, given all his already vast experience with getting torched.)

He impressed me early on secondary and tertiary WRs—enough I preferred him to Carter—but his stretch starting from the second half @NE to the first half vs. SD in Denver showed he's not ready to play #1/2 WRs yet. Against speedsters I'll take Carter because PIs are marginally better than TDs; against anyone else, I'll take Jammers decade of experience as a #1 CB, including multiple playoff games against Brady. In neither case would I take Webster as anything but a dimeback; maybe next year, or the year after, but not in the 2013 AFCCG or SB XLVIII.

Tell me which guy line you want:

CB1: 8.5 yds/target, 1 touchdown surrendered per 20 targets
CB2: 9.6 yds/target, 1 touchdown surrendered per 6.5 targets

Dean

01-13-2014, 08:22 PM

No. A month of replacing an INJURED starter isn't the same as BEING the first team starter Jammer was each time SD faced Brady in the playoffs.

Webster got abused every game—almost every PLAY—for a month straight when he tried to replace DRC; it was pathetic. In a year or two, he may (or may not) be part of the NFLs best CB trio, but right now he's just a talented but raw rookie. He got taken to school so many times by so many people in November and December he's halfway to a second degree (his first was in Health Science, so maybe he can work in the Burn Ward, given all his already vast experience with getting torched.)

He impressed me early on secondary and tertiary WRs—enough I preferred him to Carter—but his stretch starting from the second half @NE to the first half vs. SD in Denver showed he's not ready to play #1/2 WRs yet. Against speedsters I'll take Carter because PIs are marginally better than TDs; against anyone else, I'll take Jammers decade of experience as a #1 CB, including multiple playoff games against Brady. In neither case would I take Webster as anything but a dimeback; maybe next year, or the year after, but not in the 2013 AFCCG or SB XLVIII.

If you noticed the play-off games so far there have been only a few defensive holding calls and the officials have swallowed their whistles when it comes to defensive pass interference.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

01-13-2014, 08:37 PM

If you noticed the play-off games so far there have been only a few defensive holding calls and the officials have swallowed their whistles when it comes to defensive pass interference.

They didn't seem to let SD get away with it much. I really hope they're in the officials ears before the game because Talib and Denard are some of the worst. They're almost as bad as the Seahawks at grabbing and holding. If they think they can get away with it they'll do it on every play...especially Hernandez's cousin, Talib.

Dzone

01-13-2014, 08:47 PM

Just activate Tony Carter and tell him to hold on every play but try to be sneaky about it...If he gets a few penalties called on him, its not as bad as a long pass completion.

Dzone

01-13-2014, 09:13 PM

Does anyone know anything about Rahim Moore? He is supposed to be ready this week. If he is healthy, he could be a big factor in coverage

Dreadnought

01-13-2014, 09:34 PM

Just activate Tony Carter and tell him to hold on every play but try to be sneaky about it...If he gets a few penalties called on him, its not as bad as a long pass completion.

I'd go with Carter over Jammer, no question. Carter makes plenty of mistakes and is far from ideal, but he makes bad stuff happen to the opponents from time to time. If forced to I'd play Webster, who has flashes here and there. I see no prospect of Jammer doing anything but being roasted alive.

Dzone

01-13-2014, 10:21 PM

Last year, Fox said Tony Carter was the best cover man he had ever coached. Isnt that right? What happened?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

01-13-2014, 10:25 PM

Last year, Fox said Tony Carter was the best cover man he had ever coached. Isnt that right? What happened?

I think it was Del Rio that said that. I've gotten the impression it's been more about understanding of schemes and football IQ.

Traveler

01-14-2014, 06:32 AM

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 16h

In regards to Champ, the coaches will need to make a determination if they still want to keep him on a "pitch count"

Time has passed for that unless he still not fully recovered.

TXBRONC

01-14-2014, 08:02 AM

How would you guys feel about moving Champ back outside?

I was thinking Denver might move Champ back to the outside if they think his foot will hold up.

BroncoWave

01-14-2014, 08:13 AM

zbeg

01-14-2014, 08:41 AM

Does anyone know anything about Rahim Moore? He is supposed to be ready this week. If he is healthy, he could be a big factor in coverage

Lindsay Jones says she thinks it's unlikely he or Wolfe will play this weekend.

MasterShake

01-14-2014, 08:45 AM

Against NE it would make no sense to move Champ outside. NE does a lot of their damage from the slot position, which is where Champ has been. For this particular matchup, I see no reason to move him outside.

Exactly. Tom Brady is making his living in the middle of the field lately. Also if I recall, wasn't Webster getting torched after DRC went out in that last game against New England? I also think Jammer played in that game and seemed to do just fine on his guy. I'm sure they will adjust the coverage to the best possible scenario. I'm just thankful we have a healthy DRC and a relatively healthy Champ Bailey in this game. Our linebackers are going to have to play a bigger part than our corners at times.

zbeg

01-14-2014, 09:20 AM

The film for this weekend's game is finally out and I went through and looked at every one of Champ's 29 snaps. I'm not sure why Pro Football Focus graded him a -0.5 in passing, because he was never thrown at in man. There was a completion allowed in the 4th quarter in a zone coverage, but it's really hard to tell who blew the coverage, if it was Champ or the safety behind him or what.

But what was encouraging is that he seemed to be a lot quicker and he was moving and turning well. He also came on a corner blitz from the slot, though Rivers threw the ball away before Champ got there. But he looks faster than he has all season. 29 snaps isn't a lot so maybe it's just a sample size issue, but he was on Eddie Royal all game (4.39 40) and stayed with him the few times that Royal ran deep routes. There was one play early in the game where it looked like Royal was going to run a go route and Champ went with it, then Royal ran a comeback and Champ might not have had the closing speed, but Rivers was sacked.

Bottom line is that if they're going to put Edelman in the slot, I think Champ at this point is perfectly capable of handling him one-on-one. Edelman isn't big and he isn't fast, but he runs good routes, which I think matches up well against Champ Bailey: slot corner.

It's weird to see him play exclusively as a slot corner, but there you have it.

Broncolingus

01-14-2014, 10:03 AM

Whoever said it was right...

...pressure and beat the shit out of Brody and that'll do more to 'help' whoever is back there covering than any tackle vs. cover vs. athelete decision that's out there.

...it's also the best way to win in the post season.

It won't make much difference who's back there if the DL doesn't generate pressure...

...and they did a decent job of pressuring Phillys last game, and they'll need to pick it up a little more against Brody...

Joel

01-14-2014, 10:38 AM

Tell me which guy line you want:

CB1: 8.5 yds/target, 1 touchdown surrendered per 20 targets
CB2: 9.6 yds/target, 1 touchdown surrendered per 6.5 targets
I want the one who doesn't have a hand in a cast and DOES have playoff starting experience against Brady. Not the one who only has 4 starts EVER and was taken to school in every last one.

If you noticed the play-off games so far there have been only a few defensive holding calls and the officials have swallowed their whistles when it comes to defensive pass interference.
I did notice that (in another thread I even referenced it with respect to Carter.) I'm not sure it's enough as much as Carter gets flagged, but I'd still prefer him to Webster outside because—even if he's ALWAYS flagged—a Defensive Holding, Illegal Contact or even a PI call is no worse than the catch Webster routinely allows. Think of it as allowing the catch but NO yards after it. I'll take Jammers career starter experience over either though unless it's outside on a sprinter, in which case Carter's my first choice due to Jammers age.

EastCoastBronco

01-14-2014, 10:57 AM

NE looked great against Indy because the Amish Hammer turned the ball over..and over...and over...and over.
NE came back against us in week 12 because we turned the ball over...and over...and over.
We hang onto the ball this week we will blast the Pats out of Mile High.

Hawgdriver

01-14-2014, 11:36 AM

I want the one who doesn't have a hand in a cast and DOES have playoff starting experience against Brady. Not the one who only has 4 starts EVER and was taken to school in every last one.

How about this one?

CB1: 59% completion rate, receptions / targets
CB2: 61% completion rate, receptions / targets

Joel, I'll admit that I like Webster and don't like Jammer. I'm trying to advance his cause. I like him because he's physical and aggressive. I agree he's green. But your description of him as "pathetic" or whatever you said flies in the face of the numbers, if you are making an argument that Jammer or Carter is less pathetic.

I would like to see some evidence of "being taken to school," if his statistical performance is superior to the remaining corners on the roster. If Kayvon has been taken to school, then I guess the other cornerbacks dropped out of school?

Hawgdriver

01-14-2014, 11:39 AM

I'll take Jammers career starter experience over either though unless it's outside on a sprinter, in which case Carter's my first choice due to Jammers age.

You know who else has great experience at the position? Darrell Green. Maybe he should play if we can ink a last minute deal?

Look, Jammer is playing like a guest on this team. Or a ghost. When he's on the field, there are at most 10 impact players, and 1 dude in it for the free continental breakfast.

weazel

01-14-2014, 11:41 AM

Buff

01-14-2014, 12:37 PM

The only reason Denver beat SD is because SD was too stupid to throw the ball against our weak secondary. When they finally did, they had success. Without Harris, it just makes it even easier, I see NE putting up 500 passing yards on us even with their poor receiving.

I think this is an oversimplification, because I think a lot of that had to do with Harris' injury... But this is basically my biggest fear headed into the weekend with Harris out.

Broncolingus

01-14-2014, 01:31 PM

I think this is an oversimplification, because I think a lot of that had to do with Harris' injury... But this is basically my biggest fear headed into the weekend with Harris out.

If Denver cannot put a consistent pass rush on Brody, I think your fears will be realized...

Hawgdriver

01-14-2014, 03:49 PM

Ok, Joel, last quiz:

Given that you have to choose one, which cornerback do you play, ignoring how well they play the run:

CB 1: 96.8 QB Rating Against
CB 2: 97.9 QB Rating Against
CB 3: 132.9 QB Rating Against

Dzone

01-14-2014, 04:10 PM

Champ and Jammer will come in prepared and will play good. If we use Carter or webster, they will get the job done. The good news is that there will be no Keenan Allen on NE. The pass rush will make it not as important who is at corner.

CoachChaz

01-14-2014, 04:37 PM

I think we were over-exposed due to Allen's speed. On all of those receptions, I kept wondering why DRC wasnt covering him. Once Harris went down, I would have had DRC following Allen wherever he went

BroncoJoe

01-14-2014, 05:08 PM

Derek Wolf goes to IR.

Dzone

01-14-2014, 05:11 PM

We just signed a cb, marquis cole, who was just released from new england on December 26...
Hey, if this kid has been playing every day in practice against tom brady, lets start him lol

Dzone

01-14-2014, 05:13 PM

Derek Wolf goes to IR.
The Broncos must have been really hoping to have wolfe this season for them to keep him on for so long

VonDoom

01-14-2014, 05:15 PM

We just signed a cb, marquis cole, who was just released from new england on December 26...
Hey, if this kid has been playing every day in practice against tom brady, lets start him lol

My thoughts exactly. A very Belichick-like move by the Broncos here. I like it.

DenBronx

01-14-2014, 05:23 PM

Derek Wolf goes to IR.

That sucks. Then again we all sort of expected it. Suprised Rahim Moore isnt on IR too.

Dzone

01-14-2014, 05:25 PM

This guy Cole could have valuable information to share. Now new england is going to have to change up their signals. Also how did new england prepare for the broncos in the last game, etc etc...It cant hurt to pick this guys brain. Has this guy been going against amendola and edelman every day in practice? Hell, let him play LOL

DenBronx

01-14-2014, 05:27 PM

I was hoping Rahim Moore would have been back by now. Then we could have used Adams as a CB.

Now I think Webster is our next best option. Carter blows!

CoachChaz

01-14-2014, 05:29 PM

The value with Webster is he has ups and downs. I think he'll be a solid CB as he grows. Have him cover Thompkins and let DRC and Champ play around with Edelman and Amendola. Adams is going to be busy watching Vereen out of the backfield

Joel

01-14-2014, 06:08 PM

How about this one?

CB1: 59% completion rate, receptions / targets
CB2: 61% completion rate, receptions / targets

Joel, I'll admit that I like Webster and don't like Jammer. I'm trying to advance his cause. I like him because he's physical and aggressive. I agree he's green. But your description of him as "pathetic" or whatever you said flies in the face of the numbers, if you are making an argument that Jammer or Carter is less pathetic.

I would like to see some evidence of "being taken to school," if his statistical performance is superior to the remaining corners on the roster. If Kayvon has been taken to school, then I guess the other cornerbacks dropped out of school?
Try any of the games Webster played #2 CB, especially his first and final halves in that role. When he came in for the second half following DRCs injury @NE Brady victimized the rest of the game for 31 pts in one half to get them to OT so they could win. Check the Week 15 Gameday thread where I and others kept SCREAMING for the coaches to move Harris from the slot to outside so Rivers would stop doing the same thing to Webster that he did to Jammer this week. Midway through the third they heard us, but down 14 with just 20:00 left it was too late.

In between, Smith targeted Webster all game in Arrowhead. Fortunately for us his WRs usually dropped passes mostly on target and badly covered by Webster, but in the fourth they finally realized their season was on the line and Webster got picked apart on a long TD drive to bring them within 7, then again when they got the ball back. I'm just grateful Adams was there in the end zone to knock down their 4th down pass and avoid OT, because the play before that the best we could do was lose a challenge after Webster gave up yet another catch.

Rounding things out, Websters man (the unremarkable Justin Hunter) was Tennessees leading receiver in that game.

Webster looked pretty good playing dime and some nickel the first half of the year, but the #1/2 CB spot is a very different world for which he's repeatedly shown himself woefully unready. I like him, too, but he can't do that job yet, and the proof is how badly and often he got abused EVERY game where he tried. He's a rookie, and it shows in primary coverage; maybe in a year or two.

As for QBR: Which one was used? ESPNs completely arbitrary one that says a TD's somehow worth more in the 4th quarter than in the first? Because that thing's worthless. Obviously not the one I and a few other people have been doing variations on for the past 20 years, because it very much includes running. The NFLs Passer Rating? Almost as bad as ESPNs formula; it measures how well guys play the West Coast Offense, NOT how well they PASS.

If we need speed I'll take Carter because he covers better than Webster, even if he gets handsy; I prefer a penalty equivalent to a catch (let along a 5 yd Defensive Holding/Illegal Contact penalty) to catches PLUS runs. If speed's not an issue I'll take Jammer because a career starting #1 CB covers better than a good-but-green rookie.

Joel

01-14-2014, 06:08 PM

The issue for Champ at this point is as much stamina as health, because since the lingering injury was to his FOOT he couldn't even practice much this year. He practically said as much when first mentioning his "pitch count" after the... Tennessee game? Anyway, the first game since his return. We all know the altitude takes a lot out of players, so it remains to be seen whether Champ's ready to play a full 3.5 hrs at Mile High or needs to stay on the pitch count a little longer even if his foot IS fully healed.

The good news, as others have noted, is that none of the Pats WRs is a burner; Edelmans Combine 40 times was 4.52 and Amendolas was 4.58. On the other hand, Welkers was 4.65, but he makes a good living and Pro Bowls running very crisp routes and finding ways to get open, and Champ's an ideal guy to cover that IF he can play the whole game. If not, Jammer brings far more experience to the table as a career starting CB than either Carters grabbiness or Websters rookie potential do. Potential's great, but won't help us win next week.

Dzone

01-14-2014, 06:21 PM

Honestly, I think whoever fills in for Harris Jr is going to play the game of their life.

zbeg

01-14-2014, 07:23 PM

Dreadnought

01-14-2014, 08:13 PM

"Speed." Heh. Allen ran a 4.71 at the combine.

He plays fast enough. The guy is damned good. Game speed beats combine speed

zbeg

01-14-2014, 08:26 PM

He plays fast enough. The guy is damned good. Game speed beats combine speed

He's very good, but it's not because he's some burner coming off the line. He's a lot more Anquan Boldin than Torrey Smith. Jammer didn't struggle against Allen because Allen was just blowing past him on the line. Jammer struggled because of poor technique. He wasn't physically outmatched. Jammer's just played like a crappy corner. Maybe he'll correct that this weekend, and he's certainly had better games this year (not great, but not as awful), but let's be clear that Allen's not roasting secondaries with his blazing speed.

Tned

01-14-2014, 10:37 PM

RT @BrandonSpano: Chris Harris thinks that Tony Carter should be the third CB out there with Champ and DRC on Sunday. Says he's the best fit against Edelman

BroncoWave

01-14-2014, 10:46 PM

As scary as it is, Carter could wind up being our best option. He's actually a decent player when he isn't flat out mugging WRs. He has good speed and coverage ability, he just tends to panic and grab onto people, or forget to turn to play the ball. Maybe being benched has help to flip a switch somewhere in him.

Hawgdriver

01-14-2014, 11:28 PM

[Joel says stuff]

Apparently Webster gets targeted a lot and when he is targeted he is statistically better* than Carter and especially Jammer. We are talking about hundreds of pass plays, not just the one play that stuck in your head. I'll take the hard numbers over your notions.

*The QB rating I referenced is the simple formula that we all use to describe passer rating. Despite all of its flaws, it serves a useful shorthand.

If you want to trade notions, here's mine: Jammer looks and plays like day-old-cooklamp-dried assfries.

You want to tell me Jammer is the answer instead of Webster. I'm not buying it, Joel. I'll sign off on Carter, but not Jammer.

Tned

01-15-2014, 12:35 AM

Problem with Webster is the cast.

Don't know if it means anything, but Bailey is listed as starting CB along with DRC on depth chart. I haven't looked at the depth chart in a while, but assume Harris had been listed as starter before.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Forum Runner

Hawgdriver

01-15-2014, 12:48 AM

Problem with Webster is the cast.

Yeah, it's a problem, but staff had him active above Carter even with the cast.

Joel

01-15-2014, 07:44 AM

Apparently Webster gets targeted a lot and when he is targeted he is statistically better* than Carter and especially Jammer. We are talking about hundreds of pass plays, not just the one play that stuck in your head. I'll take the hard numbers over your notions.
No, we're talking about ALL games Webster played #2 CB. Take a look at the play-by-plays and how often he gave up a catch in those four games:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201311240nwe.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201312010kan.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201312080den.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201312120den.htm

Far too often it was a safety had to clean up the mess after Webster both allowed a catch and failed to make the tackle.

*The QB rating I referenced is the simple formula that we all use to describe passer rating. Despite all of its flaws, it serves a useful shorthand.
Okay, thanks for clarifying, and I agree with both halves of the second statement. Just remember the NFL dubbed its formlua a PASSER Rating System, NOT a QB rating. It doesn't even do a great job rating passers, but COMPLETELY IGNORES EVERYTHING ELSE QBs do, including running. While it's fairly easy to include sacks, runs and fumbles, the PRS doesn't. That's not terribly relevant here, in rating pass defenders, just for future reference. ;)

If you want to trade notions, here's mine: Jammer looks and plays like day-old-cooklamp-dried assfries.

You want to tell me Jammer is the answer instead of Webster. I'm not buying it, Joel. I'll sign off on Carter, but not Jammer.
Depends on the situation, for me. Against veterans who aren't burners I want Jammers starting experience. He's not as fast as he used to be, but how many teams have the luxury of going into a playoff game with a BACKUP CB who has starting #1 CB experience from MULTIPLE playoff games? Against faster primary WRs, I'll take Carter; he's got better legs than Jammer and, at 27, a fair amount of pro experience, if less and at a lower level than Jammers.

In neither case do I take Webster, who got beaten like a drum everytime he tried to play the #2 CB spot—and that was when he DIDN'T have one hand in a cast.

I like Webster, too—as a dimeback, but NOT a primary CB until around 2015. I also dislike Jammer as a guy who spent a decade as the top CB on a team we played twice a year, but, though never elite, he's better than all our other third options. Don't ask him to be a track star and he'll be fine.

Dzone

01-15-2014, 07:57 AM

Webster can tackle as well as anyone. He has deficiencies in his coverage skills at this stage in his development, plus he is playing with a club hand.. Tony Carter might come on after being benched and playing on scout team.

Tned

01-15-2014, 08:15 AM

Yeah, it's a problem, but staff had him active above Carter even with the cast.

Yes, but as was pointed out earlier in the week in something I read, a cast like he has is very hard for a CB, especially on the outside, because it makes it difficult to engage the receiver at the line of scrimmage, not to mention nearly impossible to intercept a ball.

So, is he still the better choice, even if he can't get a good jam on the receiver at the line and probably can't intercept the ball? Maybe.

CoachChaz

01-15-2014, 08:27 AM

"Speed." Heh. Allen ran a 4.71 at the combine.

He ran a 4.71 on a bad knee. Plus...it's not his straight line speed that is the biggest concern. He's not a Mike Wallace, deep threat type of a receiver It's his change of direction speed. He can go into and come out of cuts pretty damn fast (i.e. Welker/slot receiver type), but has the size to create even more space.

When are we ever going to learn that 40 times dont tell a whole story?

Dzone

01-15-2014, 10:12 AM

Joel

01-15-2014, 02:21 PM

Im just glad NE doesnt have a Keenan Allen. That play where he hurdled that bronco and then plowed our safety into the endzone was one of the most bad ass plays of the year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b408OTbFGPo
Who was it Allen hurdled there? Oh, yeah: Kayvon Webster, who failed to prevent the catch OR make the tackle following it. I fully expect Webster to EVENTUALLY be a solid staring CB, and he's a good dimeback now, but he's just not ready to be in primary coverage after just 18 weeks in the NFL. Harris may have the right idea for the next man up in his spot: Carter may grab too much, but the refs are letting that go more in the playoffs, and Carter doesn't suffer the liabilties of Jammers age nor Websters inexperience. Plus both his thumbs work.

VonDoom

01-15-2014, 04:57 PM

Who was it Allen hurdled there? Oh, yeah: Kayvon Webster, who failed to prevent the catch OR make the tackle following it. I fully expect Webster to EVENTUALLY be a solid staring CB, and he's a good dimeback now, but he's just not ready to be in primary coverage after just 18 weeks in the NFL. Harris may have the right idea for the next man up in his spot: Carter may grab too much, but the refs are letting that go more in the playoffs, and Carter doesn't suffer the liabilties of Jammers age nor Websters inexperience. Plus both his thumbs work.

I've gone through stages of rage on all three of these guys this year, but I might be coming around to Carter in this case, just for the reason you mentioned. If the refs are going to "let them play", then Carter's biggest negatives (a million PI calls this year) is cut down or eliminated.

Hawgdriver

01-15-2014, 05:05 PM

Hawgdriver

01-15-2014, 05:06 PM

Yeah, I've got an agenda too: promoting the young, hungry player who is striving for greatness.

Jammer just seems to display no give-a-shit factor. That should make me want to like him lol. Maybe if he wasn't on the playing field.

Tned

01-15-2014, 05:21 PM

We'll see how it pans out, but Champ said in his presser that he's ready for any work load. He seemed to be dancing around the subject, repeatedly saying I'll do whatever they want, but then said he was ready for as much work load as they want to give him.

Joel

01-15-2014, 05:30 PM

I've gone through stages of rage on all three of these guys this year, but I might be coming around to Carter in this case, just for the reason you mentioned. If the refs are going to "let them play", then Carter's biggest negatives (a million PI calls this year) is cut down or eliminated.
I hear ya; early on I was all "Carter's a scrub; Webster FTW!" Then DRC got hurt and Webster spent a month reminding me covering #1/2 WRs is a lot harder than playing dimeback on scrubs.

I'd still take Jammers playoff starter experience against anyone but a track star, yet Carter might be better on burners (still, Jammer was fast enough a year ago for an 80 yd pick-six on Manning as SDs #1 CB.) Really, as long as Champ can go the distance I think he can handle Amendola, DRC can shut down Edelman again and NEs scrub rookie WRs won't get by Carter OR Jammer.

Agenda alert! :lol:
My only agenda is a Broncos SB. Really. It's enough to get me past a decade of Jammer being the best CB on a team we played twice a year. After all, Phillips was just a punk that whole time—now he's our sack leader; all is forgiven. :tongue: We tried Webster as #2 CB for a solid month only to have Brady, Smith, Rivers and even Fitzpatrick repeatedly abuse him. Maybe some of us have forgotten that, but Tom Brady remembers it well and Webster's probably still trying to forget it. And, once again, that was WITHOUT a fractured thumb.

I really don't care who drafted whom as long as our top 3 CBs shut down Edelman, Amendola and [your rookie scrub here] while our LBs do the same with Vereen and Hoomanawanui.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

01-15-2014, 07:19 PM

Part of the problem with Jammer last week might have been a lack of reps in practice. It was really strange they way they left him on an island with SD's best receiver. I'm not gonna stress too much because: #1 NE doesn't have any elite receivers, #2 Jammer has played well for us at times this year.

nevcraw

01-15-2014, 07:47 PM

Apologize if someone else came up with this first but we should steal a page out of the BB plybook and play Welker at CB on edelman. done!! SB here we come

Hawgdriver

01-16-2014, 02:06 AM

I hear ya; early on I was all "Carter's a scrub; Webster FTW!" Then DRC got hurt and Webster spent a month reminding me covering #1/2 WRs is a lot harder than playing dimeback on scrubs.

I'd still take Jammers playoff starter experience against anyone but a track star, yet Carter might be better on burners (still, Jammer was fast enough a year ago for an 80 yd pick-six on Manning as SDs #1 CB.) Really, as long as Champ can go the distance I think he can handle Amendola, DRC can shut down Edelman again and NEs scrub rookie WRs won't get by Carter OR Jammer.

My only agenda is a Broncos SB. Really. It's enough to get me past a decade of Jammer being the best CB on a team we played twice a year. After all, Phillips was just a punk that whole time—now he's our sack leader; all is forgiven. :tongue: We tried Webster as #2 CB for a solid month only to have Brady, Smith, Rivers and even Fitzpatrick repeatedly abuse him. Maybe some of us have forgotten that, but Tom Brady remembers it well and Webster's probably still trying to forget it. And, once again, that was WITHOUT a fractured thumb.

I really don't care who drafted whom as long as our top 3 CBs shut down Edelman, Amendola and [your rookie scrub here] while our LBs do the same with Vereen and Hoomanawanui.

I'm sure the thumb is an issue, still, he's put up superior numbers to Carter and Jammer this season. As a rook. I like his odds, and I think Jammer is coasting. Carter might be a reasonable matchup.

Joel

01-16-2014, 07:02 PM

I'm sure the thumb is an issue, still, he's put up superior numbers to Carter and Jammer this season. As a rook. I like his odds, and I think Jammer is coasting. Carter might be a reasonable matchup.
Only marginally, and a lot of those numbers were as a dimeback; as a starting #2 CB his numbers were much worse. Brady abused him (and Jammer) in NE, Smith threw over him repeatedly in KC, especially on their final drives (which ended in a TD and an Adams Int in our end zone,) Websters man put up almost 150 yds as Tennessees leading WR in that game and Rivers shredded him against SD until our coaches finally had the wisdom to put Harris outside midway through the third quarter, far too late to save us from what was a 14 pt deficit by then.

Take all that, subtract the hand in a cast, and it bodes ill vs. NE. Unless Webster's learned a LOT and VERY fast, Brady would probably shred him even worse than last time. Granted, Brady torched Jammer almost as badly that day, so maybe he's not the answer even with a lot of experience starting as a #1 CB in the playoffs against Brady (more than anyone on the team but Champ, actually.) Whether it should be Jammer, Carter, Cole or somebody else though, I can't believe it should be Webster. In a year or two, sure, but we can't postpone the AFCCG that long.

dogfish

01-18-2014, 03:51 AM

the post just put up an article about tony carter. . . from del rio's comments, it does sound like he'll probably be dressed. . .

"We need everybody that's going to be up, corners, safeties that are involved and that get a uniform," Del Rio said. "We need him to help us win, help us play well. I wouldn't isolate on any one guy. I think we've got a number of guys that will be up and used in different combinations and the guys that play need to play well."

this part is the writer's speculation, unless he happened to be told something off the record (kinda doubt it). . .

When the Broncos line up in their base defense, Brady will likely see veteran Champ Bailey lining up opposite Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. But when the Broncos find themselves in the nickel package, with five defensive backs, Bailey will likely be asked to shift inside to cover the slot receiver and Carter will line up as the other outside corner.
Carter's promotion would come at the expense of Quentin Jammer, who struggled against San Diego after Harris was injured.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24938920/tony-carter-ready-shine-broncos

Tned

01-18-2014, 06:30 AM

the post just put up an article about tony carter. . . from del rio's comments, it does sound like he'll probably be dressed. . .

this part is the writer's speculation, unless he happened to be told something off the record (kinda doubt it). . .

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24938920/tony-carter-ready-shine-broncos

I was talking to a friend at work the other day and said my best guess is that Bailey starts on the outside, but covers the slot in nickel packages. Hard to make a realistic prediction as to whether it will be Carter, Jammer or someone else coming in as the third back, since we don't see them in practice.