Kiszla: Broncos' Champ Bailey is far from the "I'm finished" line

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey knows what people think: He's washed up. Old. Broken down. A step slow. A 12-time Pro Bowler reduced to a defensive liability.

"I've listened to the radio. I've read the newspaper. And I've heard all these things: 'He's done. He's lost a step. Yada, yada, yada,' " Bailey told me Thursday. "It's funny. Because those people don't know me, they don't understand me, and they don't know what it takes to play in the NFL. So I took it all in stride. But it's all motivation. I used every little thing I heard as motivation. Did I ever think I was done? Hell, no."

For 14 NFL seasons, Bailey was the league's premier shut-down corner. He threw a blanket on the best receivers in football with the flair of a matador, and made his artistry look effortless.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_24882260/mark-kiszla-broncos-champ-bailey-not-finished

[Ravage!!!]

I absolutely, 100% want Bailey to perform well this weekend. Not only for the Broncos sake, but for his. He needs to play well to cap off this season. But although I KNOW he doesn't feel his career isn't "at the end" yet, it hasn't shown on the field. None of us "feel" as though we are in our 30s-40s. Our mind still has the same "want" it did when 20.

I really really like Champ Bailey. He's a GREAT person, and a great teammate for everyone on our team. But as much as I love the guy, I believe his time in Denver is coming to an end.

Now, John may feel he has some loyalty to Champ for staying in Denver. But I know John is also a very very good business man and he loves the Broncos. I don't think he's goingto be blinded by loyalty when it comes to Champ's salary.

[Northman]

Champ may not feel he is not finished but......

[artie_dale]

I absolutely, 100% want Bailey to perform well this weekend. Not only for the Broncos sake, but for his. He needs to play well to cap off this season. But although I KNOW he doesn't feel his career isn't "at the end" yet, it hasn't shown on the field. None of us "feel" as though we are in our 30s-40s. Our mind still has the same "want" it did when 20.

I really really like Champ Bailey. He's a GREAT person, and a great teammate for everyone on our team. But as much as I love the guy, I believe his time in Denver is coming to an end.

Now, John may feel he has some loyalty to Champ for staying in Denver. But I know John is also a very very good business man and he loves the Broncos. I don't think he's goingto be blinded by loyalty when it comes to Champ's salary.

I'm with ya. But, what I think is if there does need to be a change, Champ Bailey can end his career around the same time Peyton Manning may, and what player wouldn't want to go each season with a guy like Peyton? With that little leverage, maybe John can convince Champ into making that move to either Safety. Champ, when healthy, is one of the most effective tacklers on the team. That, with his ability and would be only responsibility to read and respond to the QB, I think he'd be a whole new effective defensive player.

Only thing that would hold that up would be pride on Champ's part... or, if a handful of us are just flat out wrong and don't know what we are talking about when it comes to Champ being a Safety.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm with ya. But, what I think is if there does need to be a change, Champ Bailey can end his career around the same time Peyton Manning may, and what player wouldn't want to go each season with a guy like Peyton? With that little leverage, maybe John can convince Champ into making that move to either Safety. Champ, when healthy, is one of the most effective tacklers on the team. That, with his ability and would be only responsibility to read and respond to the QB, I think he'd be a whole new effective defensive player.

Only thing that would hold that up would be pride on Champ's part... or, if a handful of us are just flat out wrong and don't know what we are talking about when it comes to Champ being a Safety.

IF.. and that is still a big if... Champ can make the conversion to safety then we still have a salary issue. Meaning, do you commit that 10 million to Champ to stay with Denver and move to safety? Because Champ is in a tough spot as well. What if he can't make the transition,and the Broncos are left in a spot of having to cut him after Training Camps? Now I'm sure Champ could find a spot to land, but would the market be as open as it would have been when everyone had money to spend on FA's?

Then, what about Denver in the same situation? We could ahve used that money on a guy that actually HAS played safety, a DT, or a MLB..... or a WR that could be leaving.

[artie_dale]

IF.. and that is still a big if... Champ can make the conversion to safety then we still have a salary issue. Meaning, do you commit that 10 million to Champ to stay with Denver and move to safety? Because Champ is in a tough spot as well. What if he can't make the transition,and the Broncos are left in a spot of having to cut him after Training Camps? Now I'm sure Champ could find a spot to land, but would the market be as open as it would have been when everyone had money to spend on FA's?

Then, what about Denver in the same situation? We could ahve used that money on a guy that actually HAS played safety, a DT, or a MLB..... or a WR that could be leaving.

I hear ya. But, I personally believe that Champ is athletic enough to be able to make that transition. No more hastily back peddling, just reading, reacting, and tackling. I bet even a few more picks too.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I hear ya. But, I personally believe that Champ is athletic enough to be able to make that transition. No more hastily back peddling, just reading, reacting, and tackling. I bet even a few more picks too.

That's a logical thought. We may get to find out.

[Ravage!!!]

I hear ya. But, I personally believe that Champ is athletic enough to be able to make that transition. No more hastily back peddling, just reading, reacting, and tackling. I bet even a few more picks too.

There is more to it than that. I mean, he has the skill set, there is no doubt about it. But it's NOT just reading and reacting. There is a lot more to the job, and instincts of a player that has played corner is ENTIRE career can't simply change those natural reactions to fit a completely different role all t at easy. That is why most corners can never make that transition, despite how good they were at corner.

[Tned]

IF.. and that is still a big if... Champ can make the conversion to safety then we still have a salary issue. Meaning, do you commit that 10 million to Champ to stay with Denver and move to safety? Because Champ is in a tough spot as well. What if he can't make the transition,and the Broncos are left in a spot of having to cut him after Training Camps? Now I'm sure Champ could find a spot to land, but would the market be as open as it would have been when everyone had money to spend on FA's?

Then, what about Denver in the same situation? We could ahve used that money on a guy that actually HAS played safety, a DT, or a MLB..... or a WR that could be leaving.

Whether or not his position has changed, I do not know, but at one time he was both open to moving to safety and acknowledged that with that move would come earning less money.


Denver Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey is willing to take less money when he switches to the interior secondary position in a few years, which the 11-year veteran conceded he will do later in his career.

But he likely won't make the conversion for another three or four seasons, and he expects to be paid premium cornerback money for that stretch.
...

He is open to taking less money later on in a deal, when he likely will be playing safety, and isn't as concerned about the annual average of the contract as he is about the value over the next three or four seasons. But four months after the initial meeting, Bailey's side still hasn't been presented with a proposal.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=5326840

[Ravage!!!]

Whether or not his position has changed, I do not know, but at one time he was both open to moving to safety and acknowledged that with that move would come earning less money.



http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=5326840


That's good to hear. As of right now, I just don't believe Champ has much left on his legs. Father time, plus foot injuries that tend to re-occure, doesn't lead to much time left. So I still question whether or not he CAN make the transition, and what kind of pay that would involve.

But going by the quote, it sounds like he's willing to take less money PER YEAR, but still wants the full amount or "value over the next 3-4 seasons." That, to me, sounds like a restructuring that would spread his money out over a longer period....great for the salary cap now...unless he proves he can't make it as a safety.

Idk...just seems like there is a LOT to be considered. Like I said, I love him, but sometimes its just time to let a loved player go.

[Tned]

That's good to hear. As of right now, I just don't believe Champ has much left on his legs. Father time, plus foot injuries that tend to re-occure, doesn't lead to much time left. So I still question whether or not he CAN make the transition, and what kind of pay that would involve.

But going by the quote, it sounds like he's willing to take less money PER YEAR, but still wants the full amount or "value over the next 3-4 seasons." That, to me, sounds like a restructuring that would spread his money out over a longer period....great for the salary cap now...unless he proves he can't make it as a safety.

Idk...just seems like there is a LOT to be considered. Like I said, I love him, but sometimes its just time to let a loved player go.

Those comments by him were made in 2010, so we are at the 3-4 year mark he spoke of. Basically, we are in the time frame where he knew he would likely have to make the move to safety. The question is whether or not he is willing to take a pay cut in the year he makes the move, or will expect the Broncos to let him play out his current contract and then take a pay cut on a future renewal.

My guess would be that if he agrees that it's time to move, he would accept a restructure/reduction in pay, because he will know that on the open market (if the Broncos cut him), he is not going to get top-tier CB money.

[Dzone]

If He can stop Keenan Allen Sunday, I will say he still has it. If he gets torched Sunday, then deja vu from one year ago.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If He can stop Keenan Allen Sunday, I will say he still has it. If he gets torched Sunday, then deja vu from one year ago.

I doubt he will be on Allen. I would think they would have DRC shadow him most of the game.

[Tned]

I doubt he will be on Allen. I would think they would have DRC shadow him most of the game.

I could be wrong, but I think I read something last week or the week before about him getting tips from Harris about playing the nickel/slot spot, so if that's the case, they may have him lined up primarily there and covering whoever's in the slot.

[OrangeHoof]

The problem with a transition to safety is that you have to be in on far more collisions, particularly at the line against guys paid to be blockers. A corner can usually stay out of the trash. We want safeties willing to stick their nose in the pile the way Atwater and Smith did.

With as much respect as I can muster to his legacy, Champ, it's time to put up or shut up. The postseason is no place for excuses.

[Ravage!!!]

As much as one person can hate something, I HATE the fact that the hard-hitting safeties are pretty much a legacy that doesn't have a place in today's NFL. Guys like Lynch, Dawkins, Atwater, and Smith.... will be held in my heart as guys that MADE football great. Now, they are considered to be a "problem" and the NFL has made rules to make THOSE guys obsolete.

[Tned]

The problem with a transition to safety is that you have to be in on far more collisions, particularly at the line against guys paid to be blockers. A corner can usually stay out of the trash. We want safeties willing to stick their nose in the pile the way Atwater and Smith did.

With as much respect as I can muster to his legacy, Champ, it's time to put up or shut up. The postseason is no place for excuses.

Whether he gets injured more, I don't know, but he's always been one of the more aggressive run stopping corners in the game. I'm not at all worried about his willingness to do it, it's only a matter of whether he can stay healthy.

[Dzone]

If DRC can cover Allen one on one , then thats great. I tend to think we need two people on Allen as often as possible.

[underrated29]

I still maintain that once champ gets a superbowl ring he will stroll off into the sunset.

[LawDog]

Whether he gets injured more, I don't know, but he's always been one of the more aggressive run stopping corners in the game. I'm not at all worried about his willingness to do it, it's only a matter of whether he can stay healthy.

Champ has always been a superb tackler, however, he has not been the "blow-em-up-and-watch-the-pieces-fly" kind of guy but relied on leverage and superior technique. I think he is a great fit as a nickle/slot defender rather than safety.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I could be wrong, but I think I read something last week or the week before about him getting tips from Harris about playing the nickel/slot spot, so if that's the case, they may have him lined up primarily there and covering whoever's in the slot.

Here it is
http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/3475/even-now-champ-bailey-still-ready-to-learn

[artie_dale]

There is more to it than that. I mean, he has the skill set, there is no doubt about it. But it's NOT just reading and reacting. There is a lot more to the job, and instincts of a player that has played corner is ENTIRE career can't simply change those natural reactions to fit a completely different role all t at easy. That is why most corners can never make that transition, despite how good they were at corner.

I didn't mean to downplay the Safety position. I should have also included that I personally think Champ may be intelligent enough to fill the position. He'd have to actually learn defensive plays more that put him in specific positions because he won't be following a WR the entire time. Would it be far fetched to say that CBs have to be more athletic (speed, quickness, reaction) while S's have to be more intelligent (along with some athleticism)?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

article written 4-16-13 - from article:


A season ago, as he gave some thought about 2012 with Peyton Manning at quarterback, Bailey was asked if he would consider a move to safety. And his answer then was "maybe into my 16th season or around there." And he added: "I'm a realist, though. If I see myself on tape and I think it's time to make a move, I'll know it's time to make a move. I'll be the first to see it, I'll be the first to know it. Maybe when I'm 36."

As the Broncos opened their offseason program Monday, Bailey was reminded, with a backdrop of the Broncos' loss to the Ravens that included two touchdown catches for Torrey Smith with Bailey in tow, that he said he would consider a move to safety when he is 36.

"I did?" Bailey said, smiling. "Hey, until these young guys start doing something, I'm not taking a back seat to them. Later on, maybe, but right now I still feel like I can play at the level I expect and the level they expect me to at corner. Besides, I'm not even close to 36. I'm 34."

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23040647/he-enters-15th-season-champ-bailey-still-looking

[Ravage!!!]

I didn't mean to downplay the Safety position. I should have also included that I personally think Champ may be intelligent enough to fill the position. He'd have to actually learn defensive plays more that put him in specific positions because he won't be following a WR the entire time. Would it be far fetched to say that CBs have to be more athletic (speed, quickness, reaction) while S's have to be more intelligent (along with some athleticism)?

Well, I didn't take it as you down playing the safety position, so I know what you are saying.

I think champ has all the tools to "be" a safety...OTHER than the fact that he's NEVER "been" a safety. Despite the similarities, we've seen great corners try to move to safety and fail, for many reasons...but it really comes down to the fact that it's just a different position. The reactions are different, the reads are different, the reactions TO those reads are different...blah blah blah. I mean they all seem like "small" differences, but they are HUGE changes, and those are just a couple in reference to the coverage part of playing safety. How you approach defnding the run as a safety is much different than approaching it from the corner position (angles just being a part of that).

I'm not saying he "can't" do it at all, I'm just saying that we can't assume that because corner and safety are similiar, that they can easily be transitioned to. Not only would be asking him to change positions, but asking him to play a NEW position well enough to be an NFL caliber at that new position. Then asking him to do it well enough to be better than those that have played safety throughout their HS, college, and NFL careers. It's a tall order to say the least.

[NightTerror218]

Would love to see champ shut out gates in slot. Drc shut out keenan allan and then stop the run.

That is game right there.

[Dzone]

Who can forget Keenan Allen lined up one on one on the right side against Kaevon Webster in that last SD game?
Was DRC out that game or what

[underrated29]

Would love to see champ shut out gates in slot. Drc shut out keenan allan and then stop the run.

That is game right there.


We will crush them right there if that happens.


In order to win all I think we need to do is keep their pass rush in check. No hurries and no sacks. In our losses imo that was the key to them. NOt the defense, not missing welker and guys...Just giving manning time. We give him 4 seconds or more and we have the game in the bag.

[Northman]

If He can stop Keenan Allen Sunday, I will say he still has it. If he gets torched Sunday, then deja vu from one year ago.

Allen has a lot of speed. Something that killed him vs the Ravens last year with Jones and Smith so i hope if at the very least Fox gives him some help over the top.

[Ravage!!!]

Who can forget Keenan Allen lined up one on one on the right side against Kaevon Webster in that last SD game?
Was DRC out that game or what

Yes he was, and DRC will be back this weekend. I believe we will see a lot of DRC on Keenan this time around.

[Ravage!!!]

Allen has a lot of speed. Something that killed him vs the Ravens last year with Jones and Smith so i hope if at the very least Fox gives him some help over the top.

Cinci last year as well.

[Joel]

There is more to it than that. I mean, he has the skill set, there is no doubt about it. But it's NOT just reading and reacting. There is a lot more to the job, and instincts of a player that has played corner is ENTIRE career can't simply change those natural reactions to fit a completely different role all t at easy. That is why most corners can never make that transition, despite how good they were at corner.
That's a fair point, except when Champ was in his prime he halfway played FS even while starting at CB. That is, once the ball was in the air to anyone but "his" man, Champ regularly dropped him and went for the ball, even crossing the width of the field to pick a ball thrown to the teams other primary WR. That's later though; right now Champ's still a CB and I'm inclined to expect a statement game from him tomorrow. I think it's mainly a matter of where his conditioning is after so much time when he couldn't even practice.


Would love to see champ shut out gates in slot. Drc shut out keenan allan and then stop the run.

That is game right there.
I unreservedly endorse this gameplan. Both Champ and Harris play the run and tackle well enough we could stay in nickel against the run (assuming our front four's up to snuff, but if it's not play a base 4-3 won't help much) and match up well on Gates when he run blocks. However, matching the experience of one HoFer against another makes far more sense in the passing game, and so does matching Harris against Allens downfield speed now that Champ's slower than he once was (though still not slow,) and the rookie's unlikely to take anyone to school.

[Ravage!!!]

That's a fair point, except when Champ was in his prime he halfway played FS even while starting at CB. That is, once the ball was in the air to anyone but "his" man, Champ regularly dropped him and went for the ball, even crossing the width of the field to pick a ball thrown to the teams other primary WR. That's later though; right now Champ's still a CB and I'm inclined to expect a statement game from him tomorrow. I think it's mainly a matter of where his conditioning is after so much time when he couldn't even practice.

That's not playing FS, and that's not having the responsibilities of playing safety first and being in position for a safety.


I mean, there CAN obviously be situations that are exactly like this as FS, but at the same time, Champ was able to break on the balls you are referring to BECAUSE he was a corner and not having the safety responsibility.

[Joel]

That's not playing FS, and that's not having the responsibilities of playing safety first and being in position for a safety.

I mean, there CAN obviously be situations that are exactly like this as FS, but at the same time, Champ was able to break on the balls you are referring to BECAUSE he was a corner and not having the safety responsibility.
On the contrary, the main difference is FS's are rarely locked in man coverage on top WRs, so they needn't drop one coverage to break on a ball once thrown. But once it IS thrown, I definitely want my FS to break on the ball and close fast (just not let anyone BY him.) Champ didn't HAVE responsiblity for playing safety FIRST, and was in a bad position to for it, but did it ANYWAY.

Champ's got all the tools one wants in a FS: Good anticipation, reads and play recognition, reliable coverage and tackling, vast experience, good recovery time etc. The question's whether he can put all of them together in a quality starting FS the last few years of his career.

[Ravage!!!]

On the contrary, the main difference is FS's are rarely locked in man coverage on top WRs, so they needn't drop one coverage to break on a ball once thrown. But once it IS thrown, I definitely want my FS to break on the ball and close fast (just not let anyone BY him.) Champ didn't HAVE responsiblity for playing safety FIRST, and was in a bad position to for it, but did it ANYWAY.

Champ's got all the tools one wants in a FS: Good anticipation, reads and play recognition, reliable coverage and tackling, vast experience, good recovery time etc. The question's whether he can put all of them together in a quality starting FS the last few years of his career.

Possibly. But having the skill set isn't all there is needed, as we've seen that throughout the NFL at all positions.

[Joel]

Possibly. But having the skill set isn't all there is needed, as we've seen that throughout the NFL at all positions.
Undoubtedly, but there are no red flags and many green lights. Regardless, with all our young quality CB depth, we won't pay $9 million for an aging #2/#3 next year. Meanwhile, our best FS (IMHO) is 32 himself and in the last year of his FA contract.

It's worth offering a reworked contract (~$1-2 million with a huge bonus for, say, starting >half our games) if only because we've had such bad luck with so many rookie safeties the last few years. We haven't found the answer there, but been forced to rely heavily on FAs like Adams and Leonhard, so what would it hurt to see if Champ's the answer?

Especially since the most likely alternative is that he walks, either to another team (though I doubt many would offer much more than we) or into retirement. Hell, we signed an aging Jammer SPECIFICALLY to convert him to safety; why wouldn't we try it with Champ?

[Ravage!!!]

Well, I'm not saying he can't make the conversion, I'm just stating that it is Far from a slam-dunk that he can.

Also, I don't know if Champ is willing to take an 80% paycut and change positions just to stay in Denver.

[Joel]

Well, I'm not saying he can't make the conversion, I'm just stating that it is Far from a slam-dunk that he can.

Also, I don't know if Champ is willing to take an 80% paycut and change positions just to stay in Denver.
Okay, where should he take an 80% pay cut to play? First ballot HoFer or not, NO ONE will break the bank for a slowing 36 year old CB who missed most of the season with injury.

It's not a given he can convert, no, but there's every reason to think he can and no reason to think he can't, and, realistically, it's probably the best offer he'll get, from a SB contender with lots of good CB depth but no quality safeties (unless Duke takes it to the next level, but he's an enforcer SS, not a centerfielder FS.)

[Simple Jaded]

I just hope Bailey ends his career with Denver, be it at S or NB, but he's gonna have to make some serious hay in the PO's to come back as a starter at his '14 cap number.

[Simple Jaded]

On the contrary, the main difference is FS's are rarely locked in man coverage on top WRs, so they needn't drop one coverage to break on a ball once thrown. But once it IS thrown, I definitely want my FS to break on the ball and close fast (just not let anyone BY him.) Champ didn't HAVE responsiblity for playing safety FIRST, and was in a bad position to for it, but did it ANYWAY.

Champ's got all the tools one wants in a FS: Good anticipation, reads and play recognition, reliable coverage and tackling, vast experience, good recovery time etc. The question's whether he can put all of them together in a quality starting FS the last few years of his career.
See, this is where I think Bailey could struggle at S, you say he has anticipation and play recognition but has lost the speed he needs to stay at CB. I think he's still plenty fast enough to play CB but his elite anticipation and ball skills is where he's showing his age.

[Joel]

See, this is where I think Bailey could struggle at S, you say he has anticipation and play recognition but has lost the speed he needs to stay at CB. I think he's still plenty fast enough to play CB but his elite anticipation and ball skills is where he's showing his age.
Skills and mental acuity don't decline with age (or at least not by age 36 unless he's taken so many shots to the head he's got the earliest onset Alzheimers ever recorded.) The learned and observed things are still there; it's just a case of "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Playing back a little at safety though speed and acceleration aren't as vital (though still critical) as at CB. I guess it's theoretically possible relative age has diminished his mental game without impacting his physical game, but I can't think of why; it would certainly be unusual in both respects.