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Army Bronco
01-03-2014, 11:22 PM
So the argument for him is that he is a TD threat, the case against is that he is a fumble machine. Another issue mentioned is that by scoring TDs last year against the Ravens, the offense sat on the bench and got cold. Its important to not make these mistakes in the playoffs. So can we trust him to be an asset? I personally doubt it. Discuss...

http://www.chatsports.com/denver-broncos/a/Trindon-Holliday-Asset-or-Liability-2-9086271

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-03-2014, 11:50 PM
Yes

MOtorboat
01-03-2014, 11:53 PM
Two fumbles does not equate a "fumble machine." Two touchdowns is amongst the best in the game.

Asset.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 12:00 AM
Two fumbles does not equate a "fumble machine." Two touchdowns is amongst the best in the game.

Asset.He has fumbled or bobbled more than two brother. Maybe 2 per game...lol

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 12:02 AM
He has fumbled or bobbled more than two brother. Maybe 2 per game...lol

He has five fumbles in 16 games, two lost. He's not a fumble machine.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-04-2014, 12:06 AM
He is a fumble machine. He's also a threat to score every time he touches. That's why he's the cardiac kid.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 12:15 AM
He has fumbled or bobbled more than two brother. Maybe 2 per game...lol

He has five fumbles in 16 games, two lost. He's not a fumble machine.He is like #2 in the league in the bobble category.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 12:24 AM
When was the last game that Trindon did not bobble or fumble? Who was our last opponent to bobble or fumble a punt?

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 12:31 AM
When was the last game that Trindon did not bobble or fumble?

Oakland. The last game the Broncos played.

ShaneFalco
01-04-2014, 12:33 AM
he doesnt have a problem fumbling, he has a problem getting his feet set before the catch.

The moment he grasps that, he will become one of the best returners in the league.

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 12:34 AM
he doesnt have a problem fumbling, he has a problem getting his feet set before the catch.

The moment he grasps that, he will become one of the best returners in the league.

He's already that.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
01-04-2014, 12:50 AM
Liability…5 fumbles for the few times that he touches the ball are too much

Not to mention, the return is not nearly the same as it was last year.

LawDog
01-04-2014, 01:04 AM
Seriously, do you think you could do a better job of catching a bobbing, weaving, tumbling, witch of an object that is plummeting out of the sky and is nearly the same size as you? I think not.

Davii
01-04-2014, 01:06 AM
He's already that.

If the Texans win today the Rams will get the #1 pick.

LawDog
01-04-2014, 01:13 AM
If the Texans win today the Rams will get the #1 pick.

Your dial-up connection is horrendus...

ShaneFalco
01-04-2014, 01:15 AM
davi is using AOL online.

Davii
01-04-2014, 01:31 AM
davi is using AOL online.

You've got mail!

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 01:38 AM
Seriously, do you think you could do a better job of catching a bobbing, weaving, tumbling, witch of an object that is plummeting out of the sky and is nearly the same size as you? I think not. Do you think Trindon can plan a military operation into a hostile environment or lead a platoon on a recon by fire mission? How about plan an ambush? I think not. We are not getting paid to play football. I get paid to win wars.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 01:48 AM
When was the last game that Trindon did not bobble or fumble?

Oakland. The last game the Broncos played.ahhh.. then it was Houston when he fumbled and was benched. I stand corrected. How many fumbles did Houston have on punts or kickoffs? How about the Raiders? How about Chiefs, Chargers, Colts, Patriots, Titans.....so on? How many times has Trindon been benched this year?

Hawgdriver
01-04-2014, 02:40 AM
He's returned 70 times (kicks and punts). 54 returns were not fumbles or scores. 54 x 0 = 0.

He's fumbled 10 times (expected fumbles lost are 50%). This gives the other team great field position--between the 10 and 50 yard line. The other team will generally score 4-5 points as a result of this great field position that Trindon gave them. 10 x 50% x -4.5 = -22.5. Call it 22.

He's scored 6 times, all touchdowns. 6 x 7 = 42.

42 - 22 = 20. Or that's about 0.3 points per return. Net asset.

[Note: this does not factor in health risks posed to Bronco coaching staff.]

Traveler
01-04-2014, 04:51 AM
Definitely an asset! He can work on concentration. You can't teach that kind of speed.

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 05:07 AM
If he was really a machine that was built to fumble, he would be a really bad fumbling machine. He doesn't fumble enough. So I wouldn't think he's a fumbling machine.

DenBronx
01-04-2014, 07:25 AM
He's an assability

chazoe60
01-04-2014, 08:19 AM
Seriously, do you think you could do a better job of catching a bobbing, weaving, tumbling, witch of an object that is plummeting out of the sky and is nearly the same size as you? I think not.

If your standard for being the Broncos return man is that he be better than me then I am glad you're not their GM. :laugh:

Mike
01-04-2014, 09:46 AM
Liability. If he learns to catch the ball before running then he could be an asset. As it is now, I hold my breath literally every time he is back fielding a punt.

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 10:10 AM
He's pretty clutch in the playoffs.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13386/seasontype/3/trindon-holliday

atwater27
01-04-2014, 10:42 AM
He's an assability
LMAO this is perfect. Awesome thread, too. I love the guy, but he does scare me with his bobbles and with his size. When he gets hit, it is like a great white shark coming from 100 yards beneath the sea at full speed to nail a baby seal. The bottom line this season is we desperately need him to make plays this postseason to have a chance. Because our defense sucks. Giving Manning a short field and a special teams score or 2 will take some pressure off of our QB and let our defense go after the QB more.

Simple Jaded
01-04-2014, 10:51 AM
Holidays issues go beyond whether or not he's a fumble machine, he's been better in recents weeks but there was a 13-14 game stretch where he did almost nothing right. Imo, Holiday is a huge liability who CAN be an asset, dude is just not worth the brain damage.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2014, 10:53 AM
Biggest double edge sword in the league. IMO, anytime you take possessions away from Manning, it's not beneficial. Especially a turnover, but including a return for a TD.

Simple Jaded
01-04-2014, 10:55 AM
He's returned 70 times (kicks and punts). 54 returns were not fumbles or scores. 54 x 0 = 0.

He's fumbled 10 times (expected fumbles lost are 50%). This gives the other team great field position--between the 10 and 50 yard line. The other team will generally score 4-5 points as a result of this great field position that Trindon gave them. 10 x 50% x -4.5 = -22.5. Call it 22.

He's scored 6 times, all touchdowns. 6 x 7 = 42.

42 - 22 = 20. Or that's about 0.3 points per return. Net asset.

[Note: this does not factor in health risks posed to Bronco coaching staff.]

Imo, this equation doesn't account for an offense that can score at a record pace without him and a defense in the bottom third in the league in scoring defense due in part to his massive brain farts.

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 10:55 AM
Biggest double edge sword in the league. IMO, anytime you take possessions away from Manning, it's not beneficial. Especially a turnover, but including a return for a TD.

I just want to reemphasize that he only has two turnovers.

But, am I getting you straight here, Joe? A return for a TD is NOT beneficial?

BroncoJoe
01-04-2014, 11:00 AM
I just want to reemphasize that he only has two turnovers.

But, am I getting you straight here, Joe? A return for a TD is NOT beneficial?

He's bobbled several, and let others drop giving us poor field position. Can you admit your heart skips a beat every time you see him back there?

And yes, I am saying that with this team sometimes a TD return can be detrimental. Keeps our offense off the field and gives the ball back to the bad guys. We can't eat up clock and with our defense that's not a very good thing. You just said yourself we'd most likely score with our offense anyway - why not eat some clock and let the offense handle the scoring.

I think you know what I mean - clearly the returns for TD's are beneficial - but in some ways they could be a detriment as well.

chazoe60
01-04-2014, 11:01 AM
Joe> MO

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 11:05 AM
He's bobbled several, and let others drop giving us poor field position. Can you admit your heart skips a beat every time you see him back there?

And yes, I am saying that with this team sometimes a TD return can be detrimental. Keeps our offense off the field and gives the ball back to the bad guys. We can't eat up clock and with our defense that's not a very good thing. You just said yourself we'd most likely score with our offense anyway - why not eat some clock and let the offense handle the scoring.

I think you know what I mean - clearly the returns for TD's are beneficial - but in some ways they could be a detriment as well.

My heart doesn't skip a beat with Holliday back there. It skips a beat when Decker and Welker are back there.

Has he made a few questionable decisions, sure, but he's also took it to the house twice. I disagree about a touchdown being detrimental to an offense. To the stamina of a defense, I can agree with, but any touchdown is a good thing for an offense.

Oakland was kicking the ball away from him, other teams have to. They don't kick it away from him because he's a liability to the Broncos. If that were the case, they'd try to kick it to him.

Simple Jaded
01-04-2014, 11:06 AM
Two turnovers and a buttload of other mistakes. Wasn't it the SD loss where the Broncos offense started something like 3 of their first 4 2nd half drives deep in their own territory?

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 11:06 AM
Sneakers > Chazoe

Simple Jaded
01-04-2014, 11:07 AM
Wes Welker goes in and fumbles the ball on the 1-yard line, perhaps the issues go into the coaching as well.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2014, 11:07 AM
I'm not sure I'd use Oakland as an example of anything...

chazoe60
01-04-2014, 11:11 AM
Sneakers > Chazoe
I totally agree.

Ravage!!!
01-04-2014, 11:24 AM
He's absolutely an asset. Having the ability and threat to return a kick at any time is a HUGE benefit. Holiday has the ability to take it to the house. His two turnovers are no less than our WRs, RBs, and QBs...yet we still hand them the ball, and still throw.

dogfish
01-04-2014, 11:43 AM
he terrifies me-- the kid can't friggin' catch. . . i'd put somebody else back there. . .

Ravage!!!
01-04-2014, 11:47 AM
Wes Welker goes in and fumbles the ball on the 1-yard line, perhaps the issues go into the coaching as well.

Welker just isn't used to returning kicks. Its a difficult skill that takes practice. But the coaches don't fumble the ball, the players do.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 12:27 PM
Wes Welker goes in and fumbles the ball on the 1-yard line, perhaps the issues go into the coaching as well.

Welker just isn't used to returning kicks. Its a difficult skill that takes practice. But the coaches don't fumble the ball, the players do. I think Trindon needs two whole practice days a week of nothing but catching punts and kickoffs. Don't even give him offensive reps. it's not like they've used him on offense this year.

Nomad
01-04-2014, 12:31 PM
The life of a KR/PR....you can be a hero, then fall to a zero in a split second. The ball is bigger than him:lol:

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 12:41 PM
I agree that the poor STs play may be a result of coaching.

OrangeHoof
01-04-2014, 01:31 PM
Wes Welker goes in and fumbles the ball on the 1-yard line, perhaps the issues go into the coaching as well.

That's the irony. Welker was supposed to be safety for when we really needed a catch more than a return and it's when Welker is deep that we've had our biggest disasters.

Holliday is a weapon, one of the best returners in the league and a genuine home run hitter but ball security has always been his issue and that's why the Texans cut him. Personally, I'd put him back there except when we really need possession not a big return. Then I'd trust Welker or Caldwell.

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 01:43 PM
I think Trindon needs two whole practice days a week of nothing but catching punts and kickoffs. Don't even give him offensive reps. it's not like they've used him on offense this year.

I'm just curious. How do you know he takes offensive practice reps?

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 01:45 PM
For comparison, here are Devin Hester's stats.

http://www.nfl.com/player/devinhester/2506897/careerstats

Here are Holliday's.

http://www.nfl.com/player/trindonholliday/497218/careerstats

Ravage!!!
01-04-2014, 02:23 PM
Trindon is definitely the guy I want returning KO's.... without hesitation.

Hawgdriver
01-04-2014, 02:23 PM
Imo, this equation doesn't account for an offense that can score at a record pace without him and a defense in the bottom third in the league in scoring defense due in part to his massive brain farts.

You got me. In addition to providing the opponent 4-5 points on a short field, Trindon, when he loses a fumble, has an opportunity cost of the lost offensive possession. Denver has a 3 pt per offensive drive average. So it's really a 7-8 point swing. Furthermore, the time off the clock from the opponent's drive reduces the number of offensive drives per game, so maybe you add another 1 point or so. With this in mind, the net points per return is about 0.

Hawgdriver
01-04-2014, 02:33 PM
He's a net liability. On 16 returns he results in 0 points. The other 54 have been Bronco average - 3 points.

The Broncos score more with boring safe returns than letting Trindon try to house it.

Ravage!!!
01-04-2014, 02:47 PM
He's a net liability. On 16 returns he results in 0 points. The other 54 have been Bronco average - 3 points.

The Broncos score more with boring safe returns than letting Trindon try to house it.

That's a stat that has no meaning whatsoever. His returns, and threat of a TD, don't have a direct impact on the Broncos offense and how they did or did not score. You don't know that they return with more "safe" returns because you aren't certain as to when a "safe" return was called, nor planned.

Using some stats, and trying to come up with a math formula to calculate the "worth" of a player's function/asset to the team, is fun for math purposes, but has ZERO place in the real world/game of football.

Its like the QB rating or the new QBR trying to give a "number" to establish how good a QB is. It just doesn't work.

Hawgdriver
01-04-2014, 03:12 PM
That's a stat that has no meaning whatsoever. His returns, and threat of a TD, don't have a direct impact on the Broncos offense and how they did or did not score. You don't know that they return with more "safe" returns because you aren't certain as to when a "safe" return was called, nor planned.

Using some stats, and trying to come up with a math formula to calculate the "worth" of a player's function/asset to the team, is fun for math purposes, but has ZERO place in the real world/game of football.

Its like the QB rating or the new QBR trying to give a "number" to establish how good a QB is. It just doesn't work.

Let's assume we have two returners. One returner is sure-handed, the other is Holliday.

The sure-handed returner will never house it, but will rarely if ever fumble. Holliday is a threat to house it.

My argument is that the sure-handed returner allows the Broncos to score more, and this is supported by facts.

Facts: Holliday has returned 70 kicks (kicks and punts) for the Broncos in his tenure with the team. Holliday has fumbled 10 times. A fumble is 50% likely to be lost.* (See spoiler). The Broncos score 3 points per offensive drive. An opponent with a short field (10-50 yards from endzone) will usually score 3-7 points and consume 1-4 minutes of clock time. The Broncos average 10-12 drives per game. Holliday has scored 6 times on 70 returns.

53% on pass plays, 45% on run plays, couldn't find stats on special team plays. 50% seems reasonable.

The "safe" returner allows the Broncos to score 3 points on their offensive drive, every time. Feel free to challenge this assumption.

Trindon allows the Broncos to score 3 points on 54 returns. On 6 returns he allows the Broncos to score 7. On 10 returns he fumbles. The Broncos recover 5 of those, and score 3 points. The opponent recovers the other 5 of those, and the opponent scores 4 to 5 points. In addition, the Broncos forego the 3 points they would normally score. Furthermore, they surrender 1-4 minutes of clock time, or the equivalent of 1 drive in the game--another 3 points.

Is Trindon better than this "safe" returner? On 59 of 70 returns, he's the same. On 6 he's better. On 5 he's worse. Does the good outweigh the bad?

The good is worth 42 points. The bad is worth -20 points for the opponent's scores, -15 for the foregone offensive production due to loss of offensive possession, and -15 for the loss of drive due to opponent time of possession. That's -50 points.

Let's keep this simple. Tell me how this isn't justified by the "real world." Just using facts.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 03:25 PM
I think Trindon needs two whole practice days a week of nothing but catching punts and kickoffs. Don't even give him offensive reps. it's not like they've used him on offense this year.

I'm just curious. How do you know he takes offensive practice reps?On my Broncos App, I get pictures of their practices. I've seen pictures of Trindon running routes and catching passes with the receivers. Last year he played WR for a few snaps too.

Nomad
01-04-2014, 03:28 PM
On my Broncos App, I get pictures of their practices. I've seen pictures of Trindon running routes and catching passes with the receivers. Last year he played WR for a few snaps too.

He ran many end-a-rounds at LSU too

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 03:33 PM
Here he is on the far left with the receivers group

BroncoWave
01-04-2014, 03:52 PM
Let's assume we have two returners. One returner is sure-handed, the other is Holliday.

The sure-handed returner will never house it, but will rarely if ever fumble. Holliday is a threat to house it.

My argument is that the sure-handed returner allows the Broncos to score more, and this is supported by facts.

Facts: Holliday has returned 70 kicks (kicks and punts) for the Broncos in his tenure with the team. Holliday has fumbled 10 times. A fumble is 50% likely to be lost.* (See spoiler). The Broncos score 3 points per offensive drive. An opponent with a short field (10-50 yards from endzone) will usually score 3-7 points and consume 1-4 minutes of clock time. The Broncos average 10-12 drives per game. Holliday has scored 6 times on 70 returns.

53% on pass plays, 45% on run plays, couldn't find stats on special team plays. 50% seems reasonable.

The "safe" returner allows the Broncos to score 3 points on their offensive drive, every time. Feel free to challenge this assumption.

Trindon allows the Broncos to score 3 points on 54 returns. On 6 returns he allows the Broncos to score 7. On 10 returns he fumbles. The Broncos recover 5 of those, and score 3 points. The opponent recovers the other 5 of those, and the opponent scores 4 to 5 points. In addition, the Broncos forego the 3 points they would normally score. Furthermore, they surrender 1-4 minutes of clock time, or the equivalent of 1 drive in the game--another 3 points.

Is Trindon better than this "safe" returner? On 59 of 70 returns, he's the same. On 6 he's better. On 5 he's worse. Does the good outweigh the bad?

The good is worth 42 points. The bad is worth -20 points for the opponent's scores, -15 for the foregone offensive production due to loss of offensive possession, and -15 for the loss of drive due to opponent time of possession. That's -50 points.

Let's keep this simple. Tell me how this isn't justified by the "real world." Just using facts.

To make this even simpler, using your exact numbers the EV for a possession with a sure-handed returner who will never house one is 3. The EV for a possession with Holliday returning the punt is 2.2. Might not seem like a huge difference, but it is a net liability. There is a reason he was cut a season ago, and a reason why the coaches have taken him off the field this season in certain situations.

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 03:55 PM
Newsflash:
Denver doesn't have a sure-handed punt returner on the roster that would do nothing but catch the ball and get maybe three or four yards tops, but never fumble.

They DO have one of the biggest weapons in the NFL at punt returner, though he does have two turnovers. With the history of Decker and Welker being no better than Holliday at fielding the punt, Holliday is clearly the best option, plus he can take it to the house.

MOtorboat
01-04-2014, 03:58 PM
On my Broncos App, I get pictures of their practices. I've seen pictures of Trindon running routes and catching passes with the receivers. Last year he played WR for a few snaps too.

Fair enough.

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 04:00 PM
We did have Leonard as a sure handed returner but we let him go. I loved watching Trindon play last year. I was excited to see him this year but he just has not played as well as he is capable of. I hope to God that he proves me wrong in the POs. I really do. I want him to succeed with the Broncos but I cringe every time a punt is coming his way.

BroncoWave
01-04-2014, 04:01 PM
This isn't Holliday's fault at all, but his explosiveness is also neutralized by the fact that there is probably a 50% chance of us committing holding or blocking in the back on one of his returns. The % might not be that high, but our ST has been horribly undisciplined in that area this season.

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 04:01 PM
Holliday is the only reason Denver had a chance in that Baltimore game. His numbers were insane. Like 30 yds per punt return and over 50 per kick return. 2 TDs. Without him, that game isn't close. There's a reason he's still on the team.

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 04:03 PM
This isn't Holliday's fault at all, but his explosiveness is also neutralized by the fact that there is probably a 50% chance of us committing holding or blocking in the back on one of his returns. The % might not be that high, but our ST has been horribly undisciplined in that area this season.

I agree. Overall, this season, our STs have been pretty bad. Poor tackling. Penalties. Do they even practice STs?

Army Bronco
01-04-2014, 04:06 PM
This isn't Holliday's fault at all, but his explosiveness is also neutralized by the fact that there is probably a 50% chance of us committing holding or blocking in the back on one of his returns. The % might not be that high, but our ST has been horribly undisciplined in that area this season.Wave you are soooooo right! Our STs hold any time there is a return or they block in the back. In the Houston game especially. It was crazy. I think Trindon had a good return negated by a penalty in that game also. I so wanted to say it was the refs but...no...they were being undisciplined.

BroncoWave
01-04-2014, 04:09 PM
Wave you are soooooo right! Our STs hold any time there is a return or they block in the back. In the Houston game especially. It was crazy. I think Trindon had a good return negated by a penalty in that game also. I so wanted to say it was the refs but...no...they were being undisciplined.

Yeah, can't really blame the refs when we do it every game. Prater is the only saving grace for our special teams. When we have to cover a return or when we are returning one ourselves, it seems like we find a way to screw it up more often than not.

Dapper Dan
01-04-2014, 04:12 PM
Yeah, can't really blame the refs when we do it every game. Prater is the only saving grace for our special teams. When we have to cover a return or when we are returning one ourselves, it seems like we find a way to screw it up more often than not.

Wouldn't it have sucked if they called holding on the 64 yarder.. :lol:

Joel
01-04-2014, 04:12 PM
Hollidays has his issues (that's why Houston cut him) but let's keep a little perspective. We wouldn't have broken the team record for TDs in a season without him, and the suggestion he somehow cost us last years playoff game by SCORING TWO TDS is ludicrous. Our offense was out of synch because our offense was out of synch. Holliday wasn't the one who kicked the ground before the ball when we had a golden opportunity to take a 10 pt lead at the half, and he didn't give up a TD with <1:00 to play at the end of BOTH halves to leave us tied at the end of both.

What's our other option? Have Welker return kicks, as if being our clutch possession receiver on third and long doesn't already create enough risk of a third concussion in just one year? When we've put Welker back their, how well has it worked? He fumbled away a kick at the start of the season, too, to say nothing of the gaffe that cost us the NE game.

gregbroncs
01-04-2014, 10:24 PM
I'd leave him on KO returns but he's scary on punt returns. It's not just the ones he fumbles but he bobbles a lot of times and just seems unsure catching them. However I don't see a better option.

Simple Jaded
01-05-2014, 01:40 AM
Welker just isn't used to returning kicks. Its a difficult skill that takes practice. But the coaches don't fumble the ball, the players do.

Welker fumbled a ball he should've let go, when multiple players keep making the same mistakes I start looking at the coaches.

tripp
01-05-2014, 12:13 PM
I have a hard time trusting him ever since the Colts game. He looks very shaky when it comes to fair catching punts, I find he's unpredictable, and the fact that he weighs 120 pounds and literally gets bullied by any tackler scares me he will fumble the ball at any point.

Hawgdriver
01-07-2014, 12:22 AM
Bolts first punt--is Holliday returning it? Even if it's a 10 yard line fair catcher?

I think so. I'm ok with that, too. I'm just not sure it's correct. You could let Welker fair catch it. Wait, no, he's been out, and hasn't shown consistency.

I guess Holliday is the best option. I hope he plays well. A fumbled punt could cost the game, and that would be such a bummer. (knocking on wood)

weazel
01-07-2014, 12:26 AM
well he muffs or fumbles a lot of balls... that sucks. What sucks more is he's a return man so he is usually deep in Denvers end when he does it. Get rid of him, he is going to cost them a game and you cant lose games in the playoffs

BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 12:34 AM
well he muffs or fumbles a lot of balls... that sucks. What sucks more is he's a return man so he is usually deep in Denvers end when he does it. Get rid of him, he is going to cost them a game and you cant lose games in the playoffs

Words of wisdom brought to you by John Madden!

weazel
01-07-2014, 12:41 AM
Words of wisdom brought to you by John Madden!

LMFAO, I was thinking the same exact thing when I typed it! I almost deleted it but thought it was funny

dogfish
01-07-2014, 02:19 AM
i'd use decker on punt returns if no one else owns it in practice. . . at least he has some game experience in the role, and has been solid there before. . . he catches the ball more cleanly than holliday. . . he's also a good open field runner-- obviously about five grades below trindon in terms of explosiveness, but decker does have a punt return TD on his resume. . .

Ravage!!!
01-07-2014, 01:06 PM
I think the BCS Championship game is another example as to why you keep the explosive runner returning kicks. I'm with dog, if I'm picking someone OTHER than Holliday to return I would MUCh rather have Decker than Welker. But then, I'm not at practice to see who is doing better.

As far as the holding goes, honestly we see that from EVER team in the NFL. It always amazes me that there always seems to be a block in the back, but I know just how difficult the job of blocking those gunners are and "keeping" contact so that youd on't get the penalty. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be at the speeds in the NFL. But always seems to happen.

Army Bronco
01-07-2014, 02:31 PM
i'd use decker on punt returns if no one else owns it in practice. . . at least he has some game experience in the role, and has been solid there before. . . he catches the ball more cleanly than holliday. . . he's also a good open field runner-- obviously about five grades below trindon in terms of explosiveness, but decker does have a punt return TD on his resume. . .Didn't Decker replace Holiday earlier this year after his injury? I would just be worried about him getting injured, other than that I think Decker is the best choice. Plus Wes already has 2 concussions, he is very susceptible to getting another one and STs is kinda reckless.

Ravage!!!
01-07-2014, 02:37 PM
Didn't Decker replace Holiday earlier this year after his injury? I would just be worried about him getting injured, other than that I think Decker is the best choice. Plus Wes already has 2 concussions, he is very susceptible to getting another one and STs is kinda reckless.

Yeah.. I don't think we see Wes back on STs because of the concussions. We've already held him out of games in caution of him getting a concussion before the post season. I don't think we then throw that caution out the door when other options are available.

BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 02:53 PM
If only Wes had gotten up faster after those concussions this wouldn't even be an issue!

EastCoastBronco
01-08-2014, 07:16 AM
To paraphrase a classic...

"Kick returners are like any other machine. They're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit, it's not my problem..."

TXBRONC
01-08-2014, 08:17 AM
Two fumbles does not equate a "fumble machine." Two touchdowns is amongst the best in the game.

Asset.

He's fumbled more than that MO. I think he's fumbled at least two kick off returns and couple of punts. That said, I agree he's asset but he's high risk and high reward.

Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 10:46 AM
He's fumbled more than that MO. I think he's fumbled at least two kick off returns and couple of punts. That said, I agree he's asset but he's high risk and high reward.

10 fumbles in 70 returns.

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 10:53 AM
10 fumbles in 70 returns.

He's also had 10 fumbles in 80 returns.

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 10:55 AM
He's only lost 3 career fumbles.

Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 11:03 AM
He's only lost 3 career fumbles.

That's quite the skillset. Wish he could have taught that to our junior RBs.

Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 11:04 AM
He's also had 10 fumbles in 80 returns.

:headscratch:

Are you saying what I think you're saying?

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 11:07 AM
:headscratch:

Are you saying what I think you're saying?

I'm not sure. I just looked at his stats. It states he has 80 punt returns. He has 10 fumbles on punt returns. I was only telling the whole stat.

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 11:07 AM
His stats are similar to last year. Last year he was our only bright spot against Baltimore in the playoffs. The staff would be stupid to bench him.

Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 11:09 AM
I'm not sure. I just looked at his stats. It states he has 80 punt returns. He has 10 fumbles on punt returns. I was only telling the whole stat.

Ah, gotcha. I was only including his Denver stats. He had some returns (and a fumble) with Houston.

Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 11:09 AM
His stats are similar to last year. Last year he was our only bright spot against Baltimore in the playoffs. The staff would be stupid to bench him.

You do math right?

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 11:11 AM
You do math right?

Only when I have to.

Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 11:13 AM
Only when I have to.

I love Holliday, but the math says he's a reasonable candidate for replacement. I made a post about it somewhere up in here.

I'm not trying to change minds, just want to know what the numbers say. It wasn't what I wanted to hear.

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 11:22 AM
I love Holliday, but the math says he's a reasonable candidate for replacement. I made a post about it somewhere up in here.

I'm not trying to change minds, just want to know what the numbers say. It wasn't what I wanted to hear.

We use playoff stats to define QBs all the time. I'm just saying that, looking at his stats in the playoffs, you're taking away 2 touchdowns by replacing him.

BroncoWave
01-08-2014, 12:58 PM
I love Holliday, but the math says he's a reasonable candidate for replacement. I made a post about it somewhere up in here.

I'm not trying to change minds, just want to know what the numbers say. It wasn't what I wanted to hear.

We use playoff stats to define QBs all the time. I'm just saying that, looking at his stats in the playoffs, you're taking away 2 touchdowns by replacing him.

No, you aren't. His expected production is not two touchdowns. An isolated game where he had two touchdowns doesn't mean he is expected to get two in every playoff game. That's not how stats work. This season, he had two touchdowns in 16 games. That is an average of .125 return touchdowns per game. That would be his expected value for touchdowns, not 2.

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 01:37 PM
No, you aren't. His expected production is not two touchdowns. An isolated game where he had two touchdowns doesn't mean he is expected to get two in every playoff game. That's not how stats work. This season, he had two touchdowns in 16 games. That is an average of .125 return touchdowns per game. That would be his expected value for touchdowns, not 2.

His 2012 season stats don't mirror his 2012 playoff stats. That's how stats work. You don't know what's going to happen.

NightTerror218
01-08-2014, 03:57 PM
Look what happened when he was benched....welker pootched a kick and we lost. ....the one that hit carters leg.

He was clutch in playoffs last year.

BroncoJoe
01-08-2014, 06:31 PM
I'm glad we have real coaches to decide...

:D

BroncoWave
01-08-2014, 08:27 PM
His 2012 season stats don't mirror his 2012 playoff stats. That's how stats work. You don't know what's going to happen.

Are you seriously saying that one game is a better predictor of what will happen than 16? Like, you don't really think that do you?

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 08:29 PM
Are you seriously saying that one game is a better predictor of what will happen than 16? Like, you don't really think that do you?

No. I don't. But I don't think Holiday is as bad as people are saying. He's shown what he can do. His stats are the same as last year. So, should we have benched him against Baltimore?

BroncoWave
01-08-2014, 08:33 PM
No. I don't. But I don't think Holiday is as bad as people are saying. He's shown what he can do. His stats are the same as last year. So, should we have benched him against Baltimore?

I'm not sure where I said we should bench him. I agree with others that we have no better options. But based on his averages, it is overwhelmingly likely that he won't even score once, let alone twice.

Army Bronco
01-08-2014, 11:03 PM
No. I don't. But I don't think Holiday is as bad as people are saying. He's shown what he can do. His stats are the same as last year. So, should we have benched him against Baltimore?

I'm not sure where I said we should bench him. I agree with others that we have no better options. But based on his averages, it is overwhelmingly likely that he won't even score once, let alone twice.You know, I cringe when he is about yo field a punt now but maybe he shows a spark this weekend knowing how important it will be.

MOtorboat
01-08-2014, 11:24 PM
Only two teams in the NFL had one player return both a punt and a kick for a touchdown this season.

Dapper Dan
01-08-2014, 11:27 PM
You know, I cringe when he is about yo field a punt now but maybe he shows a spark this weekend knowing how important it will be.

Honestly, I do too. But I actually do no matter who is back there. All special teams worries me this year. If we are receiving, I'm afraid we'll fumble. If we are kicking/punting, I'm afraid they'll run it back. I don't know about it. STs has worried me more than usual.

Hawgdriver
01-09-2014, 02:10 AM
Only two teams in the NFL had one player return both a punt and a kick for a touchdown this season.

Only two teams had a returner fumble 5 or more times.

dogfish
01-09-2014, 02:30 AM
Only two teams had a returner fumble 5 or more times.

:lol:



:fear:

MOtorboat
01-09-2014, 08:31 AM
Only two teams had a returner fumble 5 or more times.

He still only had two turnovers, no matter how you spin it. We've been waiting for how long to have someone who can make an impact in the return game? How long has this fan base bitched and moaned about that? Finally get one, and they bitch about him because he turned it over twice.

TXBRONC
01-09-2014, 10:04 AM
He still only had two turnovers, no matter how you spin it. We've been waiting for how long to have someone who can make an impact in the return game? How long has this fan base bitched and moaned about that? Finally get one, and they bitch about him because he turned it over twice.

I agree with you about Holliday being impact player but that he's been high risk as well. So Denver recovered 3 out the 5 fumbles that easily could have been flipped around. The fact that the ball is on the ground makes its no better than a 50-50 proposition that the Broncos will recover the fumble. The Broncos don't run that risk if the ball isn't on the ground

Dapper Dan
01-09-2014, 11:09 AM
He still only had two turnovers, no matter how you spin it. We've been waiting for how long to have someone who can make an impact in the return game? How long has this fan base bitched and moaned about that? Finally get one, and they bitch about him because he turned it over twice.

That's how it goes. Fans can't be satisfied.

Hawgdriver
01-09-2014, 11:20 AM
He still only had two turnovers, no matter how you spin it. We've been waiting for how long to have someone who can make an impact in the return game? How long has this fan base bitched and moaned about that? Finally get one, and they bitch about him because he turned it over twice.

That is kind of crazy that he's fumbled 10 times but only lost it twice. I wonder how many of them are on kickoffs. I wonder how many were really a threat to become turnovers. It does somewhat mitigate his high number of fumbles. Maybe he doesn't lose his fumbles at 50%. Maybe he does and he's had good luck.

Like you, I enjoy his explosiveness. I like that dimension to the Broncos. I guess we had Royal for a bit, but Holliday is a tier beyond him in open field skills. Those are some of the most exciting plays of the year.

Nothing would make me happier than to see him house it twice this weekend, and demonstrate sure-handedness, and not fumble on the 3 yard line. Just because I'm pointing out facts doesn't mean I'm a hater. I love the guy, but I love even more a Broncos win. The question was posed, and I'm striving to be objective in answering.

TXBRONC
01-09-2014, 12:07 PM
That is kind of crazy that he's fumbled 10 times but only lost it twice. I wonder how many of them are on kickoffs. I wonder how many were really a threat to become turnovers. It does somewhat mitigate his high number of fumbles. Maybe he doesn't lose his fumbles at 50%. Maybe he does and he's had good luck.

Like you, I enjoy his explosiveness. I like that dimension to the Broncos. I guess we had Royal for a bit, but Holliday is a tier beyond him in open field skills. Those are some of the most exciting plays of the year.

Nothing would make me happier than to see him house it twice this weekend, and demonstrate sure-handedness, and not fumble on the 3 yard line. Just because I'm pointing out facts doesn't mean I'm a hater. I love the guy, but I love even more a Broncos win. The question was posed, and I'm striving to be objective in answering.

For his career he has a combined 129 kickoffs and punt returns. 80 are punt returns and 49 are kick returns. I know he's put the ball on the ground kick off returns before but I don't recall or if he's lost any of them.

Edit: Btw 102 of his 129 career punt and kickoff returns have come as Bronco that's 63 punt returns and 39 kick returns.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13386/trindon-hollidayhttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13386/trindon-holliday

Broncolingus
01-09-2014, 02:29 PM
I have to admit, I hold my breath too sometimes...

...it just seems like he should be past (mentally and coaching) some of the mistakes he seems to be making.

His upside though is tremendous...

...I think (hope) the coaches feel they can get these miscues fixed.

TXBRONC
01-10-2014, 10:48 AM
I have to admit, I hold my breath too sometimes...

...it just seems like he should be past (mentally and coaching) some of the mistakes he seems to be making.

His upside though is tremendous...

...I think (hope) the coaches feel they can get these miscues fixed.

I feel the same way at times when he handles punts and kicks. However, when he fields the ball cleanly and he finds a running lane good things generally follow.

Army Bronco
01-10-2014, 11:01 AM
I have to admit, I hold my breath too sometimes...

...it just seems like he should be past (mentally and coaching) some of the mistakes he seems to be making.

His upside though is tremendous...

...I think (hope) the coaches feel they can get these miscues fixed.

I feel the same way at times when he handles punts and kicks. However, when he fields the ball cleanly and he finds a running lane good things generally follow.This mirrors my feelings on him.

Broncolingus
01-10-2014, 06:19 PM
I feel the same way at times when he handles punts and kicks. However, when he fields the ball cleanly and he finds a running lane good things generally follow.


This mirrors my feelings on him.

...you dudes are just friggin smart :D

Edmonton Bronco Fan (2)
01-10-2014, 06:47 PM
The answer to this question is both.

I hold my breath every time he fields a kick. His ball security, or lack there-of is an issue albeit one that is sometimes overblown. Dynamic returners are important however and he has gamebreaking ability that is hard to come by.

Army Bronco
01-11-2014, 12:12 AM
I feel the same way at times when he handles punts and kicks. However, when he fields the ball cleanly and he finds a running lane good things generally follow.


This mirrors my feelings on him.

...you dudes are just friggin smart :DI am only smart when I repeat what the truly smart person says.

Simple Jaded
01-11-2014, 12:20 AM
Holiday fumbled a punt on the 20-something yard line with 3:00 to go in the first SD game, yeah, he got the ball back but two things come to mind; A, no one was around him and he still shit down his leg, and 2, he should have never been on the field in that situation.

Simple Jaded
01-11-2014, 12:38 AM
Oh, and in the second SD game, the Broncos had three straight 3-and-outs, two of those drives started inside their own 10, also gifts of Holiday's stupidity. Took a KO outta the end zone and got it all the way to the 10, sweet, then he took a fair catch on the 6. This is nothing out of the ordinary for Holiday, so either he's been given one hell of a green light by his coaches or he's borderline retarded.

dogfish
01-12-2014, 08:20 PM
i'd use decker on punt returns if no one else owns it in practice. . . at least he has some game experience in the role, and has been solid there before. . . he catches the ball more cleanly than holliday. . . he's also a good open field runner-- obviously about five grades below trindon in terms of explosiveness, but decker does have a punt return TD on his resume. . .

you're welcome. . . :D

Dean
01-12-2014, 08:59 PM
Holiday is like having a pass rusher that sucks versus the run. You take the bad along with the good and merely try to limit his exposures to situations he is ill suited for.

TXBRONC
01-12-2014, 09:12 PM
you're welcome. . . :D

I wasn't surprised they used Decker on punt returns. I am glad they're still letting Holiday handle the kickoffs though.

TXBRONC
01-12-2014, 09:13 PM
I am only smart when I repeat what the truly smart person says.

Far from it sir. :beer:

Army Bronco
01-12-2014, 09:31 PM
I am only smart when I repeat what the truly smart person says.

Far from it sir. :beer:Thanks Tx. Today was a damn good day. And how bout the Buffalo Wild Wings guy tripping Decker again.

TXBRONC
01-12-2014, 09:38 PM
Thanks Tx. Today was a damn good day. And how bout the Buffalo Wild Wings guy tripping Decker again.

I thought the same blade of grass that got him San Diego last year. How the heck did that blade of grass make it onto Denver's turf?

In seriousness the Chargers' punter caught Decker's heel and that's what caused him to fall.

Dapper Dan
01-12-2014, 10:37 PM
Decker was a pleasant surprise. I thought he did great today. I think they chose Decker over Welker because of the concussion.

dogfish
01-12-2014, 10:40 PM
Decker was a pleasant surprise. I thought he did great today. I think they chose Decker over Welker because of the concussion.

or because of the F up that lost the new england game. . .

Mike
01-13-2014, 11:12 AM
Holiday deserves some recognition on making that catch on that last kickoff. Great effort.

BroncoJoe
01-13-2014, 12:39 PM
Well, he's clearly both. They didn't want him back there on punts (liability) but did on kickoffs (asset).

Broncolingus
01-13-2014, 01:44 PM
Holiday deserves some recognition on making that catch on that last kickoff. Great effort.

Agreed...

...Trin-done did look solid in his (admittedly) limited action yesterday.

If he could just go back to rock star for TWO more games...

MOtorboat
01-13-2014, 01:47 PM
Well, he's clearly both. They didn't want him back there on punts (liability) but did on kickoffs (asset).

Instead we got a guy who tripped over his own feet and ended up costing the team 7 points before the half...

:)

Mike
01-13-2014, 01:50 PM
Instead we got a guy who tripped over his own feet and ended up costing the team 7 points before the half...

:)

But didn't bobble or fumble the ball.

MOtorboat
01-13-2014, 01:50 PM
But didn't bobble or fumble the ball.

Then it's a wash.

Mike
01-13-2014, 01:56 PM
Then it's a wash.

Because giving the opponent the ball back on your side of the field after your defense stops them is the same as running one back and putting your team in good position but losing balance and falling. Give me a break, dude.

It was irritating, but I take that over Holliday's gaffes any day of the week.

MOtorboat
01-13-2014, 02:00 PM
Because giving the opponent the ball back on your side of the field after your defense stops them is the same as running one back and putting your team in good position but losing balance and falling. Give me a break, dude.

It was irritating, but I take that over Holliday's gaffes any day of the week.

He touched the ball, what, 90 times this season, and turned it over twice? People are really exaggerating Holliday's problems. So he's cost the team, at most, 14 points all season.

And sure enough...they give it to Decker and Decker makes a great play and then screws it up and costs the team 7 points in just four touches.

Simple Jaded
01-13-2014, 02:44 PM
Even if his issues are being exaggerated the fact that he's been replaced multiple times this year kinda mitigates any overreaction.

Hawgdriver
01-13-2014, 03:18 PM
He touched the ball, what, 90 times this season, and turned it over twice? People are really exaggerating Holliday's problems. So he's cost the team, at most, 14 points all season.

And sure enough...they give it to Decker and Decker makes a great play and then screws it up and costs the team 7 points in just four touches.

Expected win probability disagrees with you.
(in BOLD, % chance Broncos win, see more here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201401120den.htm))

2 3:41 3 6 SDG 34 Philip Rivers pass incomplete deep left intended for Eddie Royal (defended by Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie) 0 14 0.23 -1.11 97.4
2 3:36 4 6 SDG 34 Mike Scifres punts 43 yards, returned by Eric Decker for 47 yards (tackle by Deon Butler) 0 14 -1.11 -3.58 98.6

Hawgdriver
01-13-2014, 03:21 PM
I'll give you the incompletion in the endzone, if that's what you mean, although I think the defender deflected it. But it's almost trolling to suggest his return hurt the team.

MOtorboat
01-13-2014, 04:12 PM
I'll give you the incompletion in the endzone, if that's what you mean, although I think the defender deflected it. But it's almost trolling to suggest his return hurt the team.

What?

He should have scored on the play and didn't. Then Denver turned the ball over. If he had scored, instead of tripping on a yardline, Denver is up 21-0 and the turnover can't happen.

dogfish
01-13-2014, 04:24 PM
Instead we got a guy who tripped over his own feet and ended up costing the team 7 points before the half...

:)

you're drunk, go home. . . :lol:

given that he can actually catch the ball, it was clearly the correct call to have him back there-- even if he never advanced it a single foot, he'd be the obvious and preferable choice over holliday. . . have fun watching him back there again next weekend. . .

:wave:

Hawgdriver
01-13-2014, 05:52 PM
He should have scored on the play and didn't. Then Denver turned the ball over.

These two are not causally related. You give Manning and the offense the ball on the San Diego 30 yard line with 3:30 to play in the half and timeouts, 7 times out of 10 they score 7 points, the other 3 they kick a field goal (based on season average of 75% touchdown scoring percentage in red zone). Decker put them in a place where they were expected to score 6.1 points. So his trip cost them 1 point. How much was the 47 yard return worth? Well, the Broncos average drive starts at about the 23-25 yard line, and is worth 3 points. So his return was worth about 3.1 points.

Your argument shows hindsight bias and a lack of cause and effect logic. The fact the Broncos turned the ball over several plays later has zip to do with Decker's return.

I felt good that Decker was fielding punts in those conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Trindon the keys to the proverbial Porsche on returnable punts next week, in calm winds. Hard decision for the coaching staff.

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 05:58 PM
As long as we keep Trindon primarily on kickoff returns he should be just fine. Seemed like it was punt returns where he was getting butterfingers.


I would keep Decker at punt returns the rest of the season.

Hawgdriver
01-13-2014, 06:02 PM
As long as we keep Trindon primarily on kickoff returns he should be just fine. Seemed like it was punt returns where he was getting butterfingers.


I would keep Decker at punt returns the rest of the season.

Like Joe said, good thing the professionals are making these decisions. I would take the risk of putting him back there in calm conditions, with returnable punts. Holiday has demonstrated a trait of rising to the occasion. But then again, he could pull the old Kyle Williams at the last second. Maybe you limit him to KRs.

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 06:03 PM
Instead we got a guy who tripped over his own feet and ended up costing the team 7 points before the half...

:)

I hope you are not serious. Did you even see him kick the punter in his head right before he stumbled? And not Decker fault for Manning throwing the INT. Not sure why we didnt even run it 3x in the redzone. <------ You could say that cost the team 7 points more than Deckers stumble. Had that not worked we could have just kicked the field goal. That whole drive was made possible from Decker dodging 4-5 guys before kicking the punter in the head then stumbling.

Dapper Dan
01-13-2014, 06:12 PM
I think part of the reason Holliday wasn't on Punt Returns is because of the wind.

Hawgdriver
01-13-2014, 06:18 PM
I hope you are not serious. Did you even see him kick the punter in his head right before he stumbled? And not Decker fault for Manning throwing the INT. Not sure why we didnt even run it 3x in the redzone. <------ You could say that cost the team 7 points more than Deckers stumble. Had that not worked we could have just kicked the field goal. That whole drive was made possible from Decker dodging 4-5 guys before kicking the punter in the head then stumbling.

It looks to me (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/eric-decker-magnificent-punt-return-then-trips-over-230023440--nfl.html) like he tripped over himself.

MOtorboat
01-13-2014, 06:20 PM
I hope you are not serious. Did you even see him kick the punter in his head right before he stumbled? And not Decker fault for Manning throwing the INT. Not sure why we didnt even run it 3x in the redzone. <------ You could say that cost the team 7 points more than Deckers stumble. Had that not worked we could have just kicked the field goal. That whole drive was made possible from Decker dodging 4-5 guys before kicking the punter in the head then stumbling.

I saw him kick the punter in the head and then stumble 10 yards later, but yeah, the punter tackled him...

Simple Jaded
01-13-2014, 07:13 PM
Decker didn't get tackled by the punter, dude tripped. Still rather have him PR than Holiday.

dogfish
01-13-2014, 07:24 PM
Decker didn't get tackled by the punter, dude tripped. Still rather have him PR than Holiday.

exactly. . .yes, he lacks breakaway speed, and sometimes falls down for no reason. . . but he makes solid decisions when to field it and when to let it bounce, and catches it cleanly when he does decide to field it-- neither of which you can say about holliday. . . leave the kid on kickoffs where there's some margin for error-- he's a mess trying to field punts in traffic, screw putting him back there. . . turnovers are probably the number one factor that can keep us from the prize. . . i wanna ride or die with PFM and our offense, not our keystone cops special teams. . .

Simple Jaded
01-13-2014, 07:33 PM
exactly. . .yes, he lacks breakaway speed, and sometimes falls down for no reason. . . but he makes solid decisions when to field it and when to let it bounce, and catches it cleanly when he does decide to field it-- neither of which you can say about holliday. . . leave the kid on kickoffs where there's some margin for error-- he's a mess trying to field punts in traffic, screw putting him back there. . . turnovers are probably the number one factor that can keep us from the prize. . . i wanna ride or die with PFM and our offense, not our keystone cops special teams. . .

When he's not tripping over his feet he showed some big play ability, so it's not like putting Jim Leonard back there. Decker is prone to brain farts too, knock on wood, but he let the ball go when he was supposed to and caught it when he was supposed to. He may not have the explosiveness but his floor is higher.

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 07:44 PM
I hope you are not serious. Did you even see him kick the punter in his head right before he stumbled? And not Decker fault for Manning throwing the INT. Not sure why we didnt even run it 3x in the redzone. <------ You could say that cost the team 7 points more than Deckers stumble. Had that not worked we could have just kicked the field goal. That whole drive was made possible from Decker dodging 4-5 guys before kicking the punter in the head then stumbling.

I saw him kick the punter in the head and then stumble 10 yards later, but yeah, the punter tackled him...

Running 4.5 speed 10 yards later is really nothing. Less than 2 seconds??? 6'3 frame??? Just dont think he ever really caught his balance after kicking the punter.

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 07:46 PM
Decker didn't get tackled by the punter, dude tripped. Still rather have him PR than Holiday.


He did trip after he never really regain his balance from kicking the punter going near full speed.

MOtorboat
01-13-2014, 07:49 PM
Running 4.5 speed 10 yards later is really nothing. Less than 2 seconds??? 6'3 frame??? Just dont think he ever really caught his balance after kicking the punter.

Well I'll agree to disagree and walk away after this, but it's fairly obvious he didn't trip on the punter.

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 11:34 PM
Well I'll agree to disagree and walk away after this, but it's fairly obvious he didn't trip on the punter.



My argument wasnt that he tripped ON the punter. It was that it caused enough to allow Decker to never really catch his balance.

Army Bronco
01-13-2014, 11:36 PM
It was the Buffalo Wild Wings guy in SD.,

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 11:44 PM
One last thing I wanted to add.


Nick Novack was actually credited with a tackle on that play. This is almost the same thing that happened with Chris Harris and Joe Flacco last year but Flacco was never credited with the tackle because Harris scored a TD, he basically stumbled into the endzone.


I went back and watched the clip. Clearly Decker never regained full balance. I guess it's just a matter of perception but the NFL would disagree that Decker tripped himself, otherwise Novack wouldnt have a tackle in the stats column.

DenBronx
01-13-2014, 11:45 PM
It was the Buffalo Wild Wings guy in SD.,


That's exactly what I thought during the live play. Decker should cash in with a Wild Wings commercial. Lol

BroncoJoe
01-14-2014, 09:41 AM
I hope you are not serious. Did you even see him kick the punter in his head right before he stumbled? And not Decker fault for Manning throwing the INT. Not sure why we didnt even run it 3x in the redzone. <------ You could say that cost the team 7 points more than Deckers stumble. Had that not worked we could have just kicked the field goal. That whole drive was made possible from Decker dodging 4-5 guys before kicking the punter in the head then stumbling.

Uh, actually it was. That throw hit Decker in the chest. His non-catch-tip put the ball in the air resulting in an interception.

Broncolingus
01-14-2014, 10:16 AM
Trin-done having a big couple of games here would also go a long way toward helping to mitigate that injury bug...

...esp. for the defense.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2014, 11:06 AM
Uh, actually it was. That throw hit Decker in the chest. His non-catch-tip put the ball in the air resulting in an interception.

Actually, it wasn't. Bad decision on Manning. Happens, but that wasn't on Decker.

TXBRONC
01-14-2014, 11:10 AM
Actually, it wasn't. Bad decision on Manning. Happens, but that wasn't on Decker.

Manning is a great player but even he makes mistakes and in case of the interception that's on Manning.

TXBRONC
01-14-2014, 11:12 AM
Well I'll agree to disagree and walk away after this, but it's fairly obvious he didn't trip on the punter.

No fairly obvious is Decker never fully regained his balance.

BroncoJoe
01-14-2014, 11:15 AM
Actually, it wasn't. Bad decision on Manning. Happens, but that wasn't on Decker.


Manning is a great player but even he makes mistakes and in case of the interception that's on Manning.

That was on Decker, plain and simple. It hit him in the chest for chrissake.


With the Broncos already leading by two touchdowns and driving deep into Chargers territory, CBS displayed a graphic related to Peyton Manning's red zone proficiency. As the graphic noted, Manning had not thrown a red zone interception all season long. As if on cue, Butler then ended the streak with a stellar grab on a pass intended for Eric Decker. The pass hit the Broncos' wide receiver in the chest but he could not make the catch. Butler got to the ball after it caromed off Decker's chest and managed to catch it while getting his feet down in bounds before falling out the back of the end zone.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-01-12/nfl-divisional-playoffs-chargers-broncos-score-result-highlights-analysis-peyton-manning-rivers-welker-allen

Video is about 1/2 way down the page. You can make a case against Manning or Decker. I'll put it more on Decker. The ball hit him in the chest.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 11:20 AM
Uh, actually it was. That throw hit Decker in the chest. His non-catch-tip put the ball in the air resulting in an interception.

If memory serves, the ball was deflected a foot or a few inches from Decker's chest. It was a very tight window. Perhaps a bit forced by Manning. I'm willing to cut Decker some slack on that one. It can be difficult to catch a rocket that gets revectored at the last millisecond.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 11:24 AM
Thanks for the vid. It appears that the ball hit the helmet of the DB, causing it to tumble just prior to when Decker would have put his hands on it. I'm not saying Decker gets a free pass, but that's not an easy catch. And Manning should not get a free pass on it.

BroncoJoe
01-14-2014, 11:30 AM
I don't know. The ball clearly hits Decker in the chest right above the numbers. Tough catch? Yep. One that should have been made by a guy many here say deserves a huge contract? Absolutely.

Slick
01-14-2014, 11:31 AM
I can't believe anyone would blame Decker for that interception.

MOtorboat
01-14-2014, 11:36 AM
Interception is a completely moot point if he doesn't trip on his own feet on the punt return.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 11:41 AM
Interception is a completely moot point if he doesn't trip on his own feet on the punt return.

Don't try that shit on me again MO. :smh:

But yeah, you are right. You sound dumb, but you're right.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2014, 11:42 AM
Interception is a completely moot point if he doesn't trip on his own feet on the punt return.

Oh, that's sound thinking.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 11:43 AM
I don't know. The ball clearly hits Decker in the chest right above the numbers. Tough catch? Yep. One that should have been made by a guy many here say deserves a huge contract? Absolutely.

Yeah, I'd make that catch for a few millie.

It has a bang-bang quickness to it, and it's hard to tell I'll give you that. If you look at the first (sideways) shot, it appears to deflect of homeboy's helmet. Tight window.

Dapper Dan
01-14-2014, 11:55 AM
If McDumbass never drafts Decker, that INT doesn't happen. Amiright?

Ravage!!!
01-14-2014, 12:05 PM
If McDumbass never drafts Decker, that INT doesn't happen. Amiright?

No. If McDoosh doesn't draft Decker, then Decker doesn't trip during a good punt return, which doesn't put the ball in the hands of the QB that ELWAY brings in, and Manning makes the bad choice. So it's actually Elway's fault the INT happens. :beer:

Army Bronco
01-14-2014, 12:07 PM
If McDumbass never drafts Decker, that INT doesn't happen. Amiright?

No. If McDoosh doesn't draft Decker, then Decker doesn't trip during a good punt return, which doesn't put the ball in the hands of the QB that ELWAY brings in, and Manning makes the bad choice. So it's actually Elway's fault the INT happens. :beer:Effin Elway!

weazel
01-14-2014, 12:10 PM
Interception is a completely moot point if he doesn't trip on his own feet on the punt return.

trip over his own feet... again.

MOtorboat
01-14-2014, 12:16 PM
Don't try that shit on me again MO. :smh:

But yeah, you are right. You sound dumb, but you're right.


Oh, that's sound thinking.

How is it not? If he scores, Denver doesn't have the ball on the two yard line in that situation. If he doesn't fall down and scores that interception simply can't happen on THAT drive. Now, could another interception on a late drive occurred? Sure. But not on that one, because there shouldn't even have been a "drive" to talk about.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2014, 12:20 PM
How is it not? If he scores, Denver doesn't have the ball on the two yard line in that situation. If he doesn't fall down and scores that interception simply can't happen on THAT drive. Now, could another interception on a late drive occurred? Sure. But not on that one, because there shouldn't even have been a "drive" to talk about.

That's just stupid. Decker didn't make Manning make a bad decision. One doesn't have ANYTHING to do with another. It's just lame cause-and-effect reasoning. I can make the SAME argument that if Denver didn't fumble the ball, we wouldn't have had that punt return at that time, and then Decker wouldn't have had a good punt return, thus not putting the ball into Manning's hands to DrIVE to the redzone, adn then make a bad decision on a throw.

It just doesn't make sense.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 12:25 PM
This is my I've been trolled by MO face.

MOtorboat
01-14-2014, 12:27 PM
That's just stupid. Decker didn't make Manning make a bad decision. One doesn't have ANYTHING to do with another. It's just lame cause-and-effect reasoning. I can make the SAME argument that if Denver didn't fumble the ball, we wouldn't have had that punt return at that time, and then Decker wouldn't have had a good punt return, thus not putting the ball into Manning's hands to DrIVE to the redzone, adn then make a bad decision on a throw.

It just doesn't make sense.

So Decker does score, Manning still throws the interception. Gotcha.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 12:37 PM
So Decker does score, Manning still throws the interception. Gotcha.

You could do this all day, huh? :lol:

Dapper Dan
01-14-2014, 12:37 PM
So who should we cut/fire/bench/stab?

Manning or Decker? Go!

MOtorboat
01-14-2014, 12:39 PM
You could do this all day, huh? :lol:

Well, I'm just trying to figure out how if Decker scores the interception could still occur. I haven't come up with a plausible scenario for how that could work without an onside kick.

Hawgdriver
01-14-2014, 12:40 PM
Wormholes?

dogfish
01-14-2014, 03:21 PM
No. If McDoosh doesn't draft Decker, then Decker doesn't trip during a good punt return, which doesn't put the ball in the hands of the QB that ELWAY brings in, and Manning makes the bad choice. So it's actually Elway's fault the INT happens. :beer:

don't get intercepted in the end zone-- get rid of john elway. . .

Ravage!!!
01-14-2014, 03:44 PM
So who should we cut/fire/bench/stab?

Manning or Decker? Go!

Elway. It's his fault.

BroncoWave
01-14-2014, 06:32 PM
Mo, Decker broke 3 tackles on that punt return before tripping, tackles that Holliday would have almost certainly not broken, so S T F U.

MOtorboat
01-14-2014, 06:38 PM
Mo, Decker broke 3 tackles on that punt return before tripping, tackles that Holliday would have almost certainly not broken, so S T F U.

Holliday wouldn't have had to worry about said tacklers because he would've already been past them.

:coffee:

dogfish
01-14-2014, 06:39 PM
muaha! keep fightin' the good fight, buddy. . . :laugh:

MOtorboat
01-14-2014, 06:40 PM
muaha! keep fightin' the good fight, buddy. . . :laugh:

Hopefully people are smart enough to know that last post was a joke.

Ravage!!!
01-14-2014, 06:43 PM
Hopefully people are smart enough to know that last post was a joke.

wait... just the last one??? :confused: