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Denver Native (Carol)
12-26-2013, 11:26 AM
from article:


"You always have some interesting decisions to make, especially if you have a good football team," said John Elway, who heads the football operations department of the 12-3 Broncos. "The better you are, the harder the decisions."

The 16 Broncos who are eligible for unrestricted free agency: Decker, wide receiver; Moreno, running back; Beadles, offensive guard; Shaun Phillips, defensive end; Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, cornerback; Wesley Woodyard, linebacker; Mike Adams, safety; Robert Ayers, defensive end; Paris Lenon, linebacker; Andre Caldwell, wide receiver; Chris Kuper, offensive guard; Quentin Jammer, cornerback; Jeremy Mincey, defensive end; Michael Huff, safety; Steve Vallos, center-guard; and Winston Justice, offensive tackle.

Decker figures to be the highest priority but also the most expensive to re-sign. The Broncos are built around Peyton Manning, and the quarterback's top two receivers in the past two seasons have been Decker and Demaryius Thomas, a free agent after the 2014 season.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24794027/broncos-16-players-about-become-free-agents

IMO, I would like to see both Peyton and Champ renegotiate their contracts, and take less money. They are the two highest paid players.

SR
12-26-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't see why you would want the best QB in the NFL, and one of the best in history, to restructure his deal. He's rewriting the record books this year and if you ask me it would be a huge slap in the face to ask or expect him to do so. Champ on the other hand, I totally agree; he needs to restructure. I don't see Decker coming back. He's going to ask a lot and Denver has bigger priorities than WR. Bringing DRC back long term is a higher priority than Decker IMO.

Northman
12-26-2013, 12:02 PM
I don't see why you would want the best QB in the NFL, and one of the best in history, to restructure his deal. He's rewriting the record books this year and if you ask me it would be a huge slap in the face to ask or expect him to do so. Champ on the other hand, I totally agree; he needs to restructure. I don't see Decker coming back. He's going to ask a lot and Denver has bigger priorities than WR. Bringing DRC back long term is a higher priority than Decker IMO.

Elway did it.

I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title".

Players we should keep:

Decker
Moreno
DRC
Woodyard
Phillips

Tned
12-26-2013, 12:08 PM
Elway did it.

I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title".

Players we should keep:

Decker
Moreno
DRC
Woodyard
Phillips

Hopefully, Broncos will win it all this year and Manning will be open to restructuring to go for the back to back.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Forum Runner

Denver Native (Carol)
12-26-2013, 12:08 PM
Elway did it.

I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title".

Players we should keep:

Decker
Moreno
DRC
Woodyard
Phillips

I totally agree. I know Elway did it once - not sure if he did it more than once. I think Peyton is smart enough to realize that if the Broncos lose some KEY pieces, they take the chance of following into the steps of the Ravens. The Ravens gave Flacco a RIDICULOUS contract, and therefore, lost key pieces. And we all know that money wise, Peyton has NO worries for the rest of his life. In fact, if I remember correctly, Elway was the one who suggested that he would take less money.

Dapper Dan
12-26-2013, 12:11 PM
Elway did it.

I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title".

Players we should keep:

Decker
Moreno
DRC
Woodyard
Phillips

I think that's a very good point. It's not some FO guy who's never done anything asking Peyton. It's a QB who has done what he's asking him to do.

Dapper Dan
12-26-2013, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the article. I've been wondering whose contracts are up.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-26-2013, 12:12 PM
Posted: Tuesday August 11, 1998 03:33 PM


DENVER (AP) -- John Elway has restructured his contract again to help the Denver Broncos free up money under the salary cap, The Denver Post said Tuesday.

The restructuring will lower the veteran quarterback's base salary from $4.05 million to $300,000 -- one of the lowest base salaries for an NFL starting quarterback this season. The restructuring will free up $3.75 million to help the Broncos sign their seven draft picks and leave about $2.5 million left to pay off incentives in players' contracts and sign free agents.

It was the second time this year Elway has restructured his contract.

rest - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/1998/08/11/elway_pay/

Northman
12-26-2013, 12:14 PM
I totally agree. I know Elway did it once - not sure if he did it more than once. I think Peyton is smart enough to realize that if the Broncos lose some KEY pieces, they take the chance of following into the steps of the Ravens. The Ravens gave Flacco a RIDICULOUS contract, and therefore, lost key pieces. And we all know that money wise, Peyton has NO worries for the rest of his life. In fact, if I remember correctly, Elway was the one who suggested that he would take less money.

Excellent example. I have been hearing about Flacco's contract all year and many Ravens fans are pissed. Not just because he isnt living up to "elite" status but that his contract has really strapped their cap and will going forward. For me this was one of the things that irked me about the whole Dumervil situation. A lot of people were agreeing that Doom should take a pay cut (fair statements to make). But if im Doom and i have any historical knowledge of the very team im playing for and i see a guy in Manning who despite deserving of a high contract isnt willing to find a way to rework it so that talented players could stay or sign new ones than i would probably have been pissed too. Obviously, Doom pretty much burned his bridge on the way out but that was his decision but Peyton has got to realize that his contract is a massive thorn in our side if we want to get a championship. But as Tned said, hopefully it happens this year so that either Peyton restructures or he just simply retires and alleviates some of that money.

SR
12-26-2013, 12:54 PM
Elway did it. I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title". Players we should keep: Decker Moreno DRC Woodyard Phillips

Fair point. I still believe that DRC should be priority one.

LawDog
12-26-2013, 01:06 PM
Excellent example. I have been hearing about Flacco's contract all year and many Ravens fans are pissed. Not just because he isnt living up to "elite" status but that his contract has really strapped their cap and will going forward. For me this was one of the things that irked me about the whole Dumervil situation. A lot of people were agreeing that Doom should take a pay cut (fair statements to make). But if im Doom and i have any historical knowledge of the very team im playing for and i see a guy in Manning who despite deserving of a high contract isnt willing to find a way to rework it so that talented players could stay or sign new ones than i would probably have been pissed too. Obviously, Doom pretty much burned his bridge on the way out but that was his decision but Peyton has got to realize that his contract is a massive thorn in our side if we want to get a championship. But as Tned said, hopefully it happens this year so that either Peyton restructures or he just simply retires and alleviates some of that money.

I may not be remembering correctly, but as I recall Dumerville's contract (from McDouche era) was way out of whack and they were renegotiating to get it back to fair value not because the team was being squeezed for cap space - and especially not due to Peyton's contract. And, Dumerville's contract with Baltimore is not significantly different from what the Bronco's had offered which doesn't seem like they were trying to screw him because they were out of money. Based on that, your post doesn't make sense to me.

Northman
12-26-2013, 01:19 PM
I may not be remembering correctly, but as I recall Dumerville's contract (from McDouche era) was way out of whack and they were renegotiating to get it back to fair value not because the team was being squeezed for cap space - and especially not due to Peyton's contract. And, Dumerville's contract with Baltimore is not significantly different from what the Bronco's had offered which doesn't seem like they were trying to screw him because they were out of money. Based on that, your post doesn't make sense to me.

You misunderstood what i was stating.

Basically, Doom got paid a contract (whether the league, you, or whoever feel it was justified is irrelevant) and the Broncos wanted him to re-negotiate which is in Denver's right to do. But one of the reasons for this wasnt because Denver all of a sudden thought Doom was overpaid. It had everything to do with the cap issues we were having. My point referencing Peyton has to do with the fact that im pretty certain Denver was coming at Doom telling him that in order to sign FA's and drafted players that they needed him to make a pay cut. But if i was Doom and looking at the cap space along with Manning's contract i would have a hard time re-negotiating my contract when one guy is eating a lot of cap space himself. In the end, Doom took less money just to spite Denver which i clearly said was on him when he burned the bridge on his way out. Doom's contract negotiations wasnt a direct result of Manning but i could easily see why something like that would bother me especially when (at least for me, dont know about Doom) i know that in the past with this very organization that the star players were taking paycuts to keep players and sign others.

Northman
12-26-2013, 01:20 PM
Fair point. I still believe that DRC should be priority one.

Dont know if he is priority one but i did list him as a player to keep.

UnderArmour
12-26-2013, 01:25 PM
Champ Bailey will probably be cut if he doesn't agree to a massive pay cut. There is no way he collects $9 million from the Broncos next year. DRC and Decker are the most important players we need to re-sign. Losing Moreno won't be the end of the world but I'd like him back. If I had a choice between re-signing Ayers or Phillips, I go with Ayers. Woodyard will be a priority for us even if the current playtime doesn't look like it.

dogfish
12-26-2013, 01:26 PM
peyton take less money?


:spit: :pound: :rofl:

LawDog
12-26-2013, 01:29 PM
You misunderstood what i was stating.

Basically, Doom got paid a contract (whether the league, you, or whoever feel it was justified is irrelevant) and the Broncos wanted him to re-negotiate which is in Denver's right to do. But one of the reasons for this wasnt because Denver all of a sudden thought Doom was overpaid. It had everything to do with the cap issues we were having. My point referencing Peyton has to do with the fact that im pretty certain Denver was coming at Doom telling him that in order to sign FA's and drafted players that they needed him to make a pay cut. But if i was Doom and looking at the cap space along with Manning's contract i would have a hard time re-negotiating my contract when one guy is eating a lot of cap space himself. In the end, Doom took less money just to spite Denver which i clearly said was on him when he burned the bridge on his way out. Doom's contract negotiations wasnt a direct result of Manning but i could easily see why something like that would bother me especially when (at least for me, dont know about Doom) i know that in the past with this very organization that the star players were taking paycuts to keep players and sign others.

If Elvis was chapped about that situation, why on earth would he go to Baltimore for the same money when they had just backed the Brink's truck up to Flacco's house - and began dumping talent because of the huge cap squeeze? Elvis and his agent overvalued him, and I think that is the bottom line. Nearly every team in the league makes contract adjustments, and every team with a star QB finds that their most expensive contract is for that QB. I just don't think the situation played as much of a role as you are asserting. That's all.

Northman
12-26-2013, 01:36 PM
If Elvis was chapped about that situation, why on earth would he go to Baltimore for the same money when they had just backed the Brink's truck up to Flacco's house - and began dumping talent because of the huge cap squeeze? Elvis and his agent overvalued him, and I think that is the bottom line. Nearly every team in the league makes contract adjustments, and every team with a star QB finds that their most expensive contract is for that QB. I just don't think the situation played as much of a role as you are asserting. That's all.

His motivation for Bmore could of been something as simple as believing they could repeat. Who knows. Judging by his selection of agents i think its fair to say Doom isnt the brightest bulb in the closet but sometimes emotion makes you do crazy things. Keep in mind, im not saying that Manning's contract was the major catalyst for Doom's departure, only that i could see him looking at that and wondering why he is the only one being asked to take a paycut.

SR
12-26-2013, 01:51 PM
Dont know if he is priority one but i did list him as a player to keep.

With Champ's issues and our defense blowing, having a top tier CB is a HUGE deal.

SR
12-26-2013, 01:54 PM
Champ Bailey will probably be cut if he doesn't agree to a massive pay cut. There is no way he collects $9 million from the Broncos next year. DRC and Decker are the most important players we need to re-sign. Losing Moreno won't be the end of the world but I'd like him back. If I had a choice between re-signing Ayers or Phillips, I go with Ayers. Woodyard will be a priority for us even if the current playtime doesn't look like it.

Ayers or Phillips is a tough call for me. Phillips is a good pass rusher while Ayers is average. Ayers excels against the run while Phillips as average or slightly above average. But I feel like Ayers could leave and Malik Jackson could take over without skipping a beat whereas we don't have anyone else that could replace Phillips' ability to rush the passer.

silkamilkamonico
12-26-2013, 02:16 PM
I think Moreno is pretty important myself. I also think his contract needs to be a reasonable one.

We're finding out more and more just how RB's are NOT a dime a dozen in Denver's system. Ball has come along nicely but he's not an elite RB by any means and he does have some fumble concerns. Hillman is hot garbage and Anderson is a completely unhyped unknown. Were not going to get another good RB via free agency for a reasonable contract and if I see another pick on RB anywhere near the first half of the draft I'm again rolling my eyes at Elway drafting.

SR
12-26-2013, 02:17 PM
I think Moreno is pretty important myself. I also think his contract needs to be a reasonable one. We're finding out more and more just how RB's are NOT a dime a dozen in Denver's system. Ball has come along nicely but he's not an elite RB by any means and he does have some fumble concerns. Hillman is hot garbage and Anderson is a completely unhyped unknown. Were not going to get another good RB via free agency for a reasonable contract and if I see another pick on RB anywhere near the first half of the draft I'm again rolling my eyes at Elway drafting.

Ball is also a rookie. You can't praise Moreno and knock Ball at the same time purely because of how long Moreno has taken to come in to his own.

silkamilkamonico
12-26-2013, 02:20 PM
Ball is also a rookie. You can't praise Moreno and knock Ball at the same time purely because of how long Moreno has taken to come in to his own.

Not knocking Ball at all. He's come along nicely like I have said.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 02:29 PM
I dont think Moreno is going to get a big contract anywhere. If he leaves then fine, just draft another one.

Decker, DRC, Woody and Phillips are must keeps. I can see Manning taking a little less to make this happen. Champ might not even be back. Plus dont forget, we still had 10 mill or so left from last years cap that can be rolled over to this year and the cap is actually going to go up this year.

SR
12-26-2013, 02:34 PM
You are right. Denver does have some pretty good cap space.

silkamilkamonico
12-26-2013, 02:39 PM
I don't think Moreno will either. I think he's a very good back though and I think he brings a lot to the table outside of just what he does on the field. He's been an exceptional teammate throughout his time in Denver and he's a great leader I think in the way he plays the game.

I think eventually, if not later this year, Ball will take over as the #1 back. Ball's been real good too lately, I would just hate for us to go into next year with just Ball and more unknowns or unproven's.
'
IMO I don't see how Hillman makes this team. Coaching staff did everything they could to give him the starting position and outside of maybe a handful of plays he has looked below average and that isn't even bringing up his fumbling issues. CJ Anderson who knows, but I would hate for the organization to hand him the #2 spot (or worse, Hillman) because he lose Moreno and have nothing to replace him with. Because I don't think Moreno is going to get a big contract and considering what he brings to Denver, I don't think Denver would find anything better than him. He's been real good on the field in all phases of the game too.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 02:42 PM
You are right. Denver does have some pretty good cap space.

I think enough to keep 4 or so key players. Guys might restructure a bit if we win a SB too. Id like to keep this offensive core together. DRC is also a must keep. But if we need to, we might just have to draft all defense.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 02:44 PM
Oakland is going to have some insane cap space, like 70 mill. They could easily drive the price up on us.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2013, 02:49 PM
Oakland is going to have some insane cap space, like 70 mill. They could easily drive the price up on us.

I think the Raiders are one of the teams that will make a strong push for Decker. He could step in and fill the #1WR void there on day one.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 02:50 PM
I don't think Moreno will either. I think he's a very good back though and I think he brings a lot to the table outside of just what he does on the field. He's been an exceptional teammate throughout his time in Denver and he's a great leader I think in the way he plays the game.

I think eventually, if not later this year, Ball will take over as the #1 back. Ball's been real good too lately, I would just hate for us to go into next year with just Ball and more unknowns or unproven's.
'
IMO I don't see how Hillman makes this team. Coaching staff did everything they could to give him the starting position and outside of maybe a handful of plays he has looked below average and that isn't even bringing up his fumbling issues. CJ Anderson who knows, but I would hate for the organization to hand him the #2 spot (or worse, Hillman) because he lose Moreno and have nothing to replace him with. Because I don't think Moreno is going to get a big contract and considering what he brings to Denver, I don't think Denver would find anything better than him. He's been real good on the field in all phases of the game too.

Unfortunately you are right about Ball taking over. Thats just the cold hard facts of todays RBs. Even though Moreno is alot better at this stage it would be cheaper to play Ball and maybe find a bargain basement RB late in free agency or simply draft one late. I dont know how Hillman makes the team next year, that guy sucks!!!

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 02:52 PM
Oakland is going to have some insane cap space, like 70 mill. They could easily drive the price up on us.

I think the Raiders are one of the teams that will make a strong push for Decker. He could step in and fill the #1WR void there on day one.

You know it but I think they are salivating at alot of those 16 free agents we have coming up. Their HC, Dennis Allen, is very familiar with this team and I think he wants to steal a few key pieces.

OrangeHoof
12-26-2013, 02:54 PM
My free agent priority list:

1) DR-C, even if it means cutting Champ who I think is close to retirement.
2) Phillips. Without Doom and Von iffy, he's needed as a pass-rusher.
3) Ayers. As long as he's reasonable with re-signing. He's not elite. I hope he realizes that.
4) Woodyard. Not my favorite guy but a key man in the defense.
5) Beadles. Again, not a favorite but we need to protect Manning.
6) Decker. If he asks a bunch, let him walk. He's replaceable. Look at all the rookie WRs in this league who can do what he does.
7) Moreno. I hope he comes back but second contracts on RBs usually wind up as bad ideas.
8) Caldwell. His versatility is showing as the injuries mount.
9) The rest.

I hope that between the draft and free agency, we can bolster the defense and the offensive line with perhaps a skill position player added to the mix.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 02:57 PM
I think MJD is a free agent. Teams might look at him first before Moreno. Im sure there are others. Kind of hard to justify giving Moreno a huge contract b/c this is really the only year he has put up these kind of numbers let alone stay healthy a full season.


Whats the franchise tag amounts on eacn position? Would it be cheaper to just franchise Decker or Moreno over DRC, Woody or Phillips?

FanInAZ
12-26-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't see why you would want the best QB in the NFL, and one of the best in history, to restructure his deal. He's rewriting the record books this year and if you ask me it would be a huge slap in the face to ask or expect him to do so. Champ on the other hand, I totally agree; he needs to restructure. I don't see Decker coming back. He's going to ask a lot and Denver has bigger priorities than WR. Bringing DRC back long term is a higher priority than Decker IMO.

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. Another thing about Decker that no one has brought up yet is that just about any WR that plays with Manning puts up excellent numbers. I Decker signs his next contract based solely on the money that he'll make, there's a real good chance that he'll be a disappointment to the team that signs him.

SR
12-26-2013, 03:24 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. Another thing about Decker that no one has brought up yet is that just about any WR that plays with Manning puts up excellent numbers. I Decker signs his next contract based solely on the money that he'll make, there's a real good chance that he'll be a disappointment to the team that signs him.

Decker is an above average receiver, but he is far from a top level talent. If Decker stayed for $5mil per year then I could get on board but I can see him asking for $8mil or more.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 03:35 PM
Decker is an above average receiver, but he is far from a top level talent. If Decker stayed for $5mil per year then I could get on board but I can see him asking for $8mil or more.



I could see 6 mill a year for Decker. He helps open so much up for the other guys. DT and Decker need to stay here together.


And yeah, I think DRC is a must, even if that means we have to let Champ go.

Joel
12-26-2013, 03:46 PM
You are right. Denver does have some pretty good cap space.
To the extent I even want to confront this headache before the playoffs even start, I'm curious how rolling over unused cap space works and how much cushion it leaves us.

Does unused cap space accrue and roll over indefinitely? Like, if you're under the cap by $10 million/year EVERY year for TWELVE years straight, do you have a whole 2013 caps worth of money with which to splurge on a couple dozen starting Pro Bowlers? Or is it as simple as being able to exceed next years cap by however much we were under this years? So we have that much credit toward next years cap, but can't roll over anything to 2015 unless we're under next years cap BEFORE the credit? Or is it something between the two?

The FO surely knows, but I surely don't; until/unless someone clarifies it, speculating and fretting about how much we can spend and each starter will want is even more pointless than usual.

Especially since the depth of our playoff run will likely be a big factor in both whether players want to return and whether other teams want to offer them more money. We've obviously got plenty of talented guys whose agents will be fielding calls, but SB winners get picked clean because of guys who helped put a team over the top. Unless we're the SB winner or runner up, those teams will be targeted first, and our players won't have that added leverage to broker deals.

For what it's worth, Rotoworld still shows us with a club option on Moreno; if we pay our legal obligation to him he can't go anywhere unless he holds out for even more until we release him.

We probably have plenty of guys who'd take a little less for a shot at a Ring with a first ballot HoF QB if all the season-ending injuries kill our chances this year. That's whether or not Champ/Manning's willing to take a pay cut for another shot of their own (and let's face it, Peyton's not primarily or even secondarily playing for money now; Buick and Papa take good care of him, and with three starting NFL QBs in the family the Mannings could probably afford their OWN team if they wanted one.)

It's freakin' December though, ya'll; way to soon for anyone but Elway to have any tangible cap concerns. It's a free country, of course, but I humbly and respectfully suggest anyone who insists on staying awake nights worrying about this look at the rollover rules and how much will carry into next year before even glancing at the current contracts. I've got enough to keep me awake nights since we're going back to the hospital early tomorrow for a third attempt at parenthood in as many days, so I'll leave ya'll to it.

Though before I go: Someone really ought to pass this along to Morenos doctors if no one has yet. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24826323 It could well explain why he said his knee was loose well before the ACL tear, and if it's not diagnosed and repaired he could end up with an ACL repair only to have it rip AGAIN next year or the one after, and that would probably be it for his career. If Wolfe doesn't return, I guess we'd have more cap space if we didn't have to pay 2 of our last 3 first round picks, but that's a brutal way to get there.

Ziggy
12-26-2013, 03:50 PM
I could see 6 mill a year for Decker. He helps open so much up for the other guys. DT and Decker need to stay here together.


And yeah, I think DRC is a must, even if that means we have to let Champ go.

There's no way Decker signs for 6 million/year unless he gives the Broncos a huge hometown discount, which I really don't see happening. Look at some of the current salaries at WR:
Percy Harvin- 12.85 mill
Dwayne Bowe- 11.2 mill
Vincent Jackson- 11.1 mill
Mike Wallace- 12.0 mill
Miles Austin- 9 mill
Greg Jennings- 9 mill
Roddy White- 8.5 mill
Pierre Garcon- 8.5 mill

A team could arguably justify paying Decker more than any of those with his age and production. Will he have the same numbers without Manning and this offense? Probably not, but his current numbers are what they are.

SR
12-26-2013, 04:04 PM
I can't read all of that, but the answer is no, the cap space doesn't roll over. The salary cap isn't AT&T. The cap space is, more or less, the cap minus the number of salary committed to players and dead money (ie Dumervil's cap hit against the Broncos this year).

Joel
12-26-2013, 04:11 PM
I can't read all of that, but the answer is no, the cap space doesn't roll over. The salary cap isn't AT&T. The cap space is, more or less, the cap minus the number of salary committed to players and dead money (ie Dumervil's cap hit against the Broncos this year).
Then read all of this: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8016480/nfl-salary-cap-carryover-rewards-smart-management

With that in mind, an ESPN blog post from this time last year ironically implies this is PRECISELY the time to think about next years cap, because it suggests (but doesn't outright say) the deadline to designate carryover money is the last regular season game. Perhaps the author was just being dramatic, but if not, Denver must make a decision by Sunday, and whatever they decide will affect both whom they can sign to shore up injuries for the playoffs AND whom we can re/sign next year.

Northman
12-26-2013, 04:16 PM
Another thing about Decker that no one has brought up yet is that just about any WR that plays with Manning puts up excellent numbers. I Decker signs his next contract based solely on the money that he'll make, there's a real good chance that he'll be a disappointment to the team that signs him.

Based on what? :confused:

He is in his 4th year as a pro, as a rookie he didnt see much action. In his second season he played in a run heavy offense with a QB who is one of the worst passers ever and yet still managed to put up 600 yds receiving and have 8 TD catches. In the last two years he has eclipsed 1,000 yds receiving with over 10 TD's in both those years. I dont see ANYTHING in what he has done here to show he would fail elsewhere unless the QB was just plain horrible. But then again, a lot of receivers would look pedestrian with below average QB's. Larry Fitzgerald had 800 yds receiving last year and only 4 TD's. I dont think that would be an indication that he sucks by any means.

SR
12-26-2013, 04:20 PM
Then read all of this: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8016480/nfl-salary-cap-carryover-rewards-smart-management

I stand corrected. I did not know that the new CBA added that. Thanks for that.

Joel
12-26-2013, 04:33 PM
I stand corrected. I did not know that the new CBA added that. Thanks for that.
No problem. Unfortunately, I know it's there, but not much about how it works. I can't imagine they let teams carryover cash indefinitely, else everyone would keep back a few million/year just to drop an extra $50 million or so/decade buying a couple SBs, but maybe the league figures inlation will take care of that once the caps start rising again.

It would make more sense to just apply carryover money after teams hit the cap, so they can't just stay under the cap and keep carrying more and more over till they double their cap space: Carryover $10 million and a team would have $10 million more cap space next year, but if they only spent the regular cap+$5 million, the other $5 million would be gone. Likewise, they couldn't come in $5 million under the regular cap and carryover that PLUS the previous $10 million. Then again, lots of things about the NFL don't make much sense, so who knows...?

FanInAZ
12-26-2013, 04:42 PM
Based on what? :confused:

He is in his 4th year as a pro, as a rookie he didnt see much action. In his second season he played in a run heavy offense with a QB who is one of the worst passers ever and yet still managed to put up 600 yds receiving and have 8 TD catches. In the last two years he has eclipsed 1,000 yds receiving with over 10 TD's in both those years. I dont see ANYTHING in what he has done here to show he would fail elsewhere unless the QB was just plain horrible. But then again, a lot of receivers would look pedestrian with below average QB's. Larry Fitzgerald had 800 yds receiving last year and only 4 TD's. I dont think that would be an indication that he sucks by any means.

Based on watching almost every WR that Manning thrown to in the past 16 seasons put great numbers.

Based on 20+ years of watching numerous players letting a couple of good years go to their head, going to another team via FA or forced trade, and being exposed as someone who's previous success was a product of the system they were previously in. I'm not guaranteeing that it would happen to Decker, but it has happened numerous times in the past.

CrazyHorse
12-26-2013, 04:46 PM
Elway did it.

I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title".

Players we should keep:

Decker
Moreno
DRC
Woodyard
Phillips

I'd rather have Ayers over Phillips. Both if the price is right but we'll have Von and Q. Smith back. I'd like to keep Harris too if possible. Maybe Beadles too if his demand isn't too high.

BroncoWave
12-26-2013, 04:49 PM
If I'm the Broncos, this is who I try to keep and in what order:

1. DRC
2. Moreno
3. Ayers
4. Phillips
5. Decker
6. Woody
7. Beadles
8. Caldwell
9. Adams
10. Mincey
11. Kuper

The rest I wouldn't put much effort into bringing back. I probably have Moreno higher than most would, but I think he is a key cog to our offense. As long as Manning is here, I want Moreno here too. I wouldn't break the bank on him, but I would give him a 2-3 year deal.

CrazyHorse
12-26-2013, 05:04 PM
If I'm the Broncos, this is who I try to keep and in what order:

1. DRC
2. Moreno
3. Ayers
4. Phillips
5. Decker
6. Woody
7. Beadles
8. Caldwell
9. Adams
10. Mincey
11. Kuper

The rest I wouldn't put much effort into bringing back. I probably have Moreno higher than most would, but I think he is a key cog to our offense. As long as Manning is here, I want Moreno here too. I wouldn't break the bank on him, but I would give him a 2-3 year deal.

No Harris?

SR
12-26-2013, 05:06 PM
I'd rather have Ayers over Phillips. Both if the price is right but we'll have Von and Q. Smith back. I'd like to keep Harris too if possible. Maybe Beadles too if his demand isn't too high.

Smith is a big unknown.

BroncoWave
12-26-2013, 05:07 PM
No Harris?

I didn't see him listed in the article? Is he restricted? I'd put him 3rd behind DRC and Moreno if he is a FA.

Northman
12-26-2013, 05:41 PM
Elway did it.

I think John knew that in order to win championships you have to have the talent and depth to get there. I dont think its a slap in the face to say "hey dude, we want to surround you with more talent so we can continuing making a run to a SB title".

Players we should keep:

Decker
Moreno
DRC
Woodyard
Phillips

I'd rather have Ayers over Phillips. Both if the price is right but we'll have Von and Q. Smith back. I'd like to keep Harris too if possible. Maybe Beadles too if his demand isn't too high.

Ayers has the youth but he just isnt a impact player.

Northman
12-26-2013, 05:46 PM
Based on what? :confused:

He is in his 4th year as a pro, as a rookie he didnt see much action. In his second season he played in a run heavy offense with a QB who is one of the worst passers ever and yet still managed to put up 600 yds receiving and have 8 TD catches. In the last two years he has eclipsed 1,000 yds receiving with over 10 TD's in both those years. I dont see ANYTHING in what he has done here to show he would fail elsewhere unless the QB was just plain horrible. But then again, a lot of receivers would look pedestrian with below average QB's. Larry Fitzgerald had 800 yds receiving last year and only 4 TD's. I dont think that would be an indication that he sucks by any means.

Based on watching almost every WR that Manning thrown to in the past 16 seasons put great numbers.

Based on 20+ years of watching numerous players letting a couple of good years go to their head, going to another team via FA or forced trade, and being exposed as someone who's previous success was a product of the system they were previously in. I'm not guaranteeing that it would happen to Decker, but it has happened numerous times in the past.

Hate to say it but you could easily say that about DT, Marvin Harrison, Wes Welker, etc. Deck wouldnt be alone using that logic.

Slick
12-26-2013, 06:16 PM
Decker is not a number one reciever. If he tries to get paid like one it won't be in Denver.

Northman
12-26-2013, 06:50 PM
Decker is not a number one reciever. If he tries to get paid like one it won't be in Denver.

Not a number one, but better than most #2's out in the league right now.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-26-2013, 06:57 PM
42 players listed - DT #7 with 1,317 yards, Decker 10th with 1,261 yards. There have been multiple games this year where an announcer has mentioned the great block that Decker had.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards

I do not want to see him go to another team.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2013, 07:00 PM
Decker is not a number one reciever. If he tries to get paid like one it won't be in Denver.

That's why I don't think he'll be back next year. He was only a 3rd round pick. This may be his only chance at a big contract. He's a really good #2, but there are a number of teams that don't have a #1 and will likely look at Decker instead of rolling the dice in the draft. Oakland, St. Loius, San Diego, New England, and Tennesee are a some teams that come to mind. There's a very good chance Denver will get outbid for his services.

BroncoWave
12-26-2013, 07:05 PM
I do not want to see him go to another team.

Nor do many here, but you can't afford to keep everyone. If he is looking to get paid like a #1, I just don't think Denver will be able to keep him. Manning has shown he can make absolutely any WR productive, so I don't see the need to break the bank on a WR unless they are an elite talent like DT.

FanInAZ
12-26-2013, 07:11 PM
Hate to say it but you could easily say that about DT, Marvin Harrison, Wes Welker, etc. Deck wouldnt be alone using that logic.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Don't take it as me knocking the receivers, but acknowledging that Manning is one of those QBs that makes his WRs better.

Brady is another one. How many fans on this site were expecting him & his Patriots to crash this season because he lost almost his entire receiving core for the previous year. The number 1 question being asked, "Who Brady going to throw it to?" All that he's done this season is lead his team to the 5th highest scoring O in the league & probably the 2 seed in the AFC playoffs.

pnbronco
12-26-2013, 07:24 PM
Well for DRC should be # 1 on that list. Also does anyone realize what a gem Phillips has been. He has 10 sacks the closes is Ayers with 5.5.

Last but not least I know I'm one the few that care but Adams has made a difference. He turned Sunday's game around with the INT. I know he's knocked the ball down in at least 2 other games that made the difference of them scoring and getting ahead of us and not. He plays special teams and will do whatever it takes to be a contributing factor. I am very grateful he's been on the team. I know the D has struggled but I've seen the solid play that Mike has brought, not flashy but solid. I know he's age is against him but he gives 110% every time I've watched him play.

SR
12-26-2013, 07:35 PM
That's why I don't think he'll be back next year. He was only a 3rd round pick. This may be his only chance at a big contract. He's a really good #2, but there are a number of teams that don't have a #1 and will likely look at Decker instead of rolling the dice in the draft. Oakland, St. Loius, San Diego, New England, and Tennesee are a some teams that come to mind. There's a very good chance Denver will get outbid for his services.

San Diego has Keenan Allen. St Louis has Tavon Austin. Tennessee has Nate Washington, Kenny Britt who had an awful year, the other guy, and Delanie Walker so they're not likely to shell out big bucks for a guy like Decker that doesn't bring much more to the table than their current flock. New England would be a fantastic fit for Decker and I would HATE to see that happen. I could see Oakland, Jacksonville, the Jets, and Minnesota all making runs for Decker.

ShaneFalco
12-26-2013, 08:06 PM
Yea stl aint signing decker, buffalo might.
But w. justice , moreno ,beadles, drc, harris, and sp are highest priority

BroncoWave
12-26-2013, 08:09 PM
Justice??

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2013, 08:20 PM
I wouldn't expect St. Louis to be sold on Austin as their #1. He has one game with over 50 yards this season. That offense needs help fast and I don't know if they have time to wait for him to figure it out. He screams slot\return guy to me, not #1 guy.

DenBronx
12-26-2013, 09:12 PM
I forgot about Chris Harris contract being up this year. :(

I'd even make him a priority over Phillips or Ayers. DRC, Decker, Harris and then Phillips. In that order too. I would have even rated Harris over DRC earlier in the year but I now see how much DRC is needed. Both of them are needed

Slick
12-26-2013, 09:15 PM
Not a number one, but better than most #2's out in the league right now.

I would love to be able to keep Thomas, Decker, Welker and Thomas together but I think teams are going to outbid us for Decker, and like Mr Mayor said, he'll get a bigger offer somewhere else and nobody will blame him for getting the money while he can.

JPPT1974
12-26-2013, 09:21 PM
Think that Peyton would restructure his deal. As he is that kind of guy. Hope most of those players get to stay!

dogfish
12-26-2013, 10:44 PM
Think that Peyton would restructure his deal. As he is that kind of guy.

come on, just stop. . . i'm not tryin' to be a dick, but you guys are off the reservation and clear into never-neverland with this one. . . manning is NOT that kind of guy, at all-- never has been. . . he never took one penny less than he could get in indy, and he got every cent he could on the free agent market. . . when no one knew if he could even play. . .

you think he's gonna turn around and give some of that money back now that he's playing at the highest level of his career? you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. . .

BroncoWave
12-26-2013, 10:48 PM
come on, just stop. . . i'm not tryin' to be a dick, but you guys are off the reservation and clear into never-neverland with this one. . . manning is NOT that kind of guy, at all-- never has been. . . he never took one penny less than he could get in indy, and he got every cent he could on the free agent market. . . when no one knew if he could even play. . .

you think he's gonna turn around and give some of that money back now that he's playing at the highest level of his career? you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. . .

Exactly. I wonder how many posters on here would take a pay cut at their job so that their company could get a leg up on it's competitors. My guess is roughly zero.

tomjonesrocks
12-26-2013, 11:06 PM
Exactly. I wonder how many posters on here would take a pay cut at their job so that their company could get a leg up on it's competitors. My guess is roughly zero.

That's not really a fair comparison. It's more like would you take an affordable amount of money less to be in a job you'd be happier in and/or work for a company/boss you had more respect for. I've certainly done this personally and know many who have. Taking less could certainly improve his chances to win another title (i.e., making his job more satisfying). It's something that sounds reasonable in his position to me...not that those who say he'll never take a penny less than the max couldn't be 100% right in their positions.

Dapper Dan
12-26-2013, 11:11 PM
come on, just stop. . . i'm not tryin' to be a dick, but you guys are off the reservation and clear into never-neverland with this one. . . manning is NOT that kind of guy, at all-- never has been. . . he never took one penny less than he could get in indy, and he got every cent he could on the free agent market. . . when no one knew if he could even play. . .

you think he's gonna turn around and give some of that money back now that he's playing at the highest level of his career? you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. . .

So he came to Denver because we offered the most?

Denver Native (Carol)
12-26-2013, 11:21 PM
IMO, at Manning's age, with his career winding down, I would think that winning would be much more important to him than getting paid as much money as he could get.

As North said in an earlier post - Elway did it. Why wouldn't Manning do it?

CrazyHorse
12-26-2013, 11:48 PM
Decker better realize he'll get paid more but won't be catching balls from a future hall of famer.

dogfish
12-26-2013, 11:48 PM
So he came to Denver because we offered the most?

i have no idea. . . he got one of the biggest contracts in league history, though. . . that's the thing about being peyton effin' manning-- he doesn't have to pick one or the other, he can have both-- pick where he wants to play, AND get a megadeal. . . if you really feel compelled to nitpick, i suppose it's possible that bud adams could have offered him even more than we did. . . he still got an absolute top-of-the-market deal. . . i'll admit that i was fundamentally wrong when he actually restructures and takes less. . . i won't be holding my breath. . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2013, 11:52 PM
IMO, at Manning's age, with his career winding down, I would think that winning would be much more important to him than getting paid as much money as he could get.

As North said in an earlier post - Elway did it. Why wouldn't Manning do it?

This has been a reoccurring theme with Bronco fans. I wonder if Manning and Champ have told Elway how much they appreciate him setting that precedent.

dogfish
12-26-2013, 11:53 PM
This has been a reoccurring theme with Bronco fans. I wonder if Manning and Champ have told Elway how much they appreciate him setting that precent.

recurring fantasy, you mean. . .

*snorts*

FanInAZ
12-27-2013, 12:06 AM
Exactly. I wonder how many posters on here would take a pay cut at their job so that their company could get a leg up on it's competitors. My guess is roughly zero.

Same as the number of posters who have a 8 figure net worth & lucrative business investments that will enable to pay their great-grandchildren's collage tuition. For Elway, he has his car dealerships that's making him all the money he could ever want & enabled him to eventually become part owner of the Broncos. Manning has his Papa John's restaurants. SB rings are something that you have a limited time to earn.

pnbronco
12-27-2013, 12:08 AM
Actually if I remember correctly Elway got paid every cent he just structured it so it would be over a much, much longer period of time. I think I remember Elways saying he would get a pay check long after he retired. Since a lot has happened since that time I'm not sure if this is even a option anymore.

Again I'm not sure but I think SF and Tenn offered a little more but Peyton felt like working with Elway and Fox would be the best for him.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-27-2013, 01:31 AM
Actually if I remember correctly Elway got paid every cent he just structured it so it would be over a much, much longer period of time. I think I remember Elways saying he would get a pay check long after he retired. Since a lot has happened since that time I'm not sure if this is even a option anymore.

Again I'm not sure but I think SF and Tenn offered a little more but Peyton felt like working with Elway and Fox would be the best for him.
SF didn't have as much cap space. TN was the only one to offer more.

DenBronx
12-27-2013, 01:48 AM
Think that Peyton would restructure his deal. As he is that kind of guy.

come on, just stop. . . i'm not tryin' to be a dick, but you guys are off the reservation and clear into never-neverland with this one. . . manning is NOT that kind of guy, at all-- never has been. . . he never took one penny less than he could get in indy, and he got every cent he could on the free agent market. . . when no one knew if he could even play. . .

you think he's gonna turn around and give some of that money back now that he's playing at the highest level of his career? you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. . .

8 or 9 years ago id believe this. However, Mannings at the end of his career and I think he wants to go out on top more than $$$$$. Thats just my thinking and not factual. If I were in his shoes it would be hard to pass up getting another ring.

I dont think back ending 5 or so mill is out of the realm of possibility.

Right now, ALL of these guys are on the team at the same time. My hopes are win this year then just let the chips fall where they may. If some of these guys chase money then f@#$ it then...we would have got a lombardi.

I think this will all depend on how far we go in the playoffs. If were one and done then I think it will be because of our defense. Then I could see that as priority #1, even over Moreno, Decker or whoever else.

If we cut Champ then there might be several million of dead money. He will be asked to redo his deal if he doesnt choose to retire. Part of me hopes he just retires, he is loved here but his skill has vastly declined, now tac on his injury.

DenBronx
12-27-2013, 01:53 AM
And another thing, the only way these guys take a home town discount is if we win the dang SB. If not I think some will chase the money, like DRC.

It will be interesting to see who gets the franchise tag. Theres alot of cap room with many teams this year and unfortunately, we have 16 free agents, many who will be highly looked at.

OrangeHoof
12-27-2013, 02:00 AM
IMO, at Manning's age, with his career winding down, I would think that winning would be much more important to him than getting paid as much money as he could get.

As North said in an earlier post - Elway did it. Why wouldn't Manning do it?

Elway doesn't have a little brother with more Super Bowl rings than he has. If THAT doesn't motivate Manning to defer some money, I don't know what will.

dogfish
12-27-2013, 02:10 AM
8 or 9 years ago id believe this. However, Mannings at the end of his career and I think he wants to go out on top more than $$$$$. Thats just my thinking and not factual. If I were in his shoes it would be hard to pass up getting another ring.

I dont think back ending 5 or so mill is out of the realm of possibility.






IMO, I would like to see both Peyton and Champ renegotiate their contracts, and take less money. They are the two highest paid players.


Think that Peyton would restructure his deal. As he is that kind of guy. Hope most of those players get to stay!


i need to clarify my earlier comments, as sometimes responses can get crossed up. . . there's a HUGE difference between "restructuring a contract to help the team," and taking less money to help the team. . . the former is simply a matter of converting base salary into signing bonus, to save money against the salary cap by spreading the hit over multiple years. . . as this is typically done with rich older vets who have large base salaries (and big bank accounts) to begin with, it involves zero sacrifice on their part-- yes, they wait a bit longer to get their cash, but they also get more guaranteed that way. . . older vets do it all the time. . . champ has done so in the past, but won't be asked to do so this time-- if he gets a chance to stay, it will be at a greatly reduced overall salary, not with bonus money merely spread into the coming years. . .

i wouldn't be surprised if manning does in fact do this at some point. . . but as to the idea that he'll simply take less money overall, that's not going to happen. . . i mean, i love the idea, and so would disney, but there's just no precedent at all. . . it's easy to say "i'd do it if i were peyton," but we aren't. . . that's not how the guy thinks. . . he is obsessively competitive, he's always wanted to win everything-- including the salary race. . . he wants to have the biggest check, the most endorsements, the best stats and most awards, AND win all the games. . . and it's part of his mentality to think he can do it all, rather than trying to prioritize one thing or another. . .

if the guy had any interest in taking less to have a better team around him, he was rich enough to do so two contracts ago. . . he could have taken far less to sign here two years ago if he was worried about the team having cap space. . . he didn't do it then, he never did it in indy, and i can't understand why (beyond wistful hoping against hope) anyone would really expect him to totally reverse course now. . .

for those who didn't catch it, peyton bought the memphis grizzlies basketball team a year or two ago-- and put it in his wife's name. . . know what that means? it means he's planning to purchase an NFL team when he retires, most likely. . . having the griz in her name neatly sidesteps any nagging cross-ownership conflicts. . . the guy is stacking chips with a serious purpose, and i'm pretty sure even he doesn't have enough yet to fulfill his ultimate goal on his own. . . he'll need to front an ownership group, not buy outright. . . he still "needs" his checks to get where he wants to be after football-- don't expect him to take a pay cut, or retire as long as he can still play. . . just sayin'. . .

NightTerror218
12-27-2013, 02:32 AM
Decker is one of Manning's fav targets that all will help bump Decker up list of need. Decker is a solid #2. Great blocker and routre running. Seller has concussion problems and short term. Means Decker is needed more. He will get paid good money and hopefully it by Broncos. I could see the only team and o outbid Denver is Minnesota, ho e town for Decker.

Caldwell is not that great. Manning makes him look better.

I think Bailey is going to be gone or take huge cut. Kuper will be gone. Caldwell will prob be gone or really cheap. DRC is a need to keep.

DenBronx
12-27-2013, 02:59 AM
All this talk about Decker being a #2. Yet he battled DR, Welker and Julius all year and STILL put up top 10 numbers in the whole NFL. Decker is better than most #1s in the NFL, you guys can't see it because our team is pretty damn stacked on offense. Why haven't all of the other #1s beaten him out stat wise then??? Compare the stats...I dare you. Decker almost even beat out DT....still could too with Oakland coming up. The dude has exploded in the 2nd half of the season!!


I beg to differ on this #2 talk, he's a #1. We have three #1s on this team and that doesn't even include Julius.

DenBronx
12-27-2013, 03:06 AM
i need to clarify my earlier comments, as sometimes responses can get crossed up. . . there's a HUGE difference between "restructuring a contract to help the team," and taking less money to help the team. . . the former is simply a matter of converting base salary into signing bonus, to save money against the salary cap by spreading the hit over multiple years. . . as this is typically done with rich older vets who have large base salaries (and big bank accounts) to begin with, it involves zero sacrifice on their part-- yes, they wait a bit longer to get their cash, but they also get more guaranteed that way. . . older vets do it all the time. . . champ has done so in the past, but won't be asked to do so this time-- if he gets a chance to stay, it will be at a greatly reduced overall salary, not with bonus money merely spread into the coming years. . .

i wouldn't be surprised if manning does in fact do this at some point. . . but as to the idea that he'll simply take less money overall, that's not going to happen. . . i mean, i love the idea, and so would disney, but there's just no precedent at all. . . it's easy to say "i'd do it if i were peyton," but we aren't. . . that's not how the guy thinks. . . he is obsessively competitive, he's always wanted to win everything-- including the salary race. . . he wants to have the biggest check, the most endorsements, the best stats and most awards, AND win all the games. . . and it's part of his mentality to think he can do it all, rather than trying to prioritize one thing or another. . .

if the guy had any interest in taking less to have a better team around him, he was rich enough to do so two contracts ago. . . he could have taken far less to sign here two years ago if he was worried about the team having cap space. . . he didn't do it then, he never did it in indy, and i can't understand why (beyond wistful hoping against hope) anyone would really expect him to totally reverse course now. . .

for those who didn't catch it, peyton bought the memphis grizzlies basketball team a year or two ago-- and put it in his wife's name. . . know what that means? it means he's planning to purchase an NFL team when he retires, most likely. . . having the griz in her name neatly sidesteps any nagging cross-ownership conflicts. . . the guy is stacking chips with a serious purpose, and i'm pretty sure even he doesn't have enough yet to fulfill his ultimate goal on his own. . . he'll need to front an ownership group, not buy outright. . . he still "needs" his checks to get where he wants to be after football-- don't expect him to take a pay cut, or retire as long as he can still play. . . just sayin'. . .


Then that's what separates Elway from most of the other great QBs. He didn't just restructure, he actually took less money to help the team stay together.

Tom Brady tried and sort of got hosed this year. LOL! Thanks for Welker Tommy!



Oh, and if Manning does buy an NFL team. He better damn well parter up with Elway and buy the Broncos. Each as co owners but hopefully he becomes our OC then HC years later.

dogfish
12-27-2013, 03:35 AM
Oh, and if Manning does buy an NFL team. He better damn well parter up with Elway and buy the Broncos.

i've been saying for over a year now that that's exactly what i think is going to happen. . .

:D :defense:

Dapper Dan
12-27-2013, 04:58 AM
i need to clarify my earlier comments, as sometimes responses can get crossed up. . . there's a HUGE difference between "restructuring a contract to help the team," and taking less money to help the team. . . the former is simply a matter of converting base salary into signing bonus, to save money against the salary cap by spreading the hit over multiple years. . . as this is typically done with rich older vets who have large base salaries (and big bank accounts) to begin with, it involves zero sacrifice on their part-- yes, they wait a bit longer to get their cash, but they also get more guaranteed that way. . . older vets do it all the time. . . champ has done so in the past, but won't be asked to do so this time-- if he gets a chance to stay, it will be at a greatly reduced overall salary, not with bonus money merely spread into the coming years. . .

i wouldn't be surprised if manning does in fact do this at some point. . . but as to the idea that he'll simply take less money overall, that's not going to happen. . . i mean, i love the idea, and so would disney, but there's just no precedent at all. . . it's easy to say "i'd do it if i were peyton," but we aren't. . . that's not how the guy thinks. . . he is obsessively competitive, he's always wanted to win everything-- including the salary race. . . he wants to have the biggest check, the most endorsements, the best stats and most awards, AND win all the games. . . and it's part of his mentality to think he can do it all, rather than trying to prioritize one thing or another. . .

if the guy had any interest in taking less to have a better team around him, he was rich enough to do so two contracts ago. . . he could have taken far less to sign here two years ago if he was worried about the team having cap space. . . he didn't do it then, he never did it in indy, and i can't understand why (beyond wistful hoping against hope) anyone would really expect him to totally reverse course now. . .

for those who didn't catch it, peyton bought the memphis grizzlies basketball team a year or two ago-- and put it in his wife's name. . . know what that means? it means he's planning to purchase an NFL team when he retires, most likely. . . having the griz in her name neatly sidesteps any nagging cross-ownership conflicts. . . the guy is stacking chips with a serious purpose, and i'm pretty sure even he doesn't have enough yet to fulfill his ultimate goal on his own. . . he'll need to front an ownership group, not buy outright. . . he still "needs" his checks to get where he wants to be after football-- don't expect him to take a pay cut, or retire as long as he can still play. . . just sayin'. . .

I think when most people say "take less money" they mean "against the cap for the season". Not literally giving up like $8 mill in overall salary to sign a player or two.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2013, 05:01 AM
i have no idea. . . he got one of the biggest contracts in league history, though. . . that's the thing about being peyton effin' manning-- he doesn't have to pick one or the other, he can have both-- pick where he wants to play, AND get a megadeal. . . if you really feel compelled to nitpick, i suppose it's possible that bud adams could have offered him even more than we did. . . he still got an absolute top-of-the-market deal. . . i'll admit that i was fundamentally wrong when he actually restructures and takes less. . . i won't be holding my breath. . .

how was that nitpicky . . i thought that was your point . . you said he took every cent he could on the free agent market . . I disagree . . i think if that was the case he would have went to a higher bidder . .

Northman
12-27-2013, 05:21 AM
All this talk about Decker being a #2. Yet he battled DR, Welker and Julius all year and STILL put up top 10 numbers in the whole NFL. Decker is better than most #1s in the NFL, you guys can't see it because our team is pretty damn stacked on offense. Why haven't all of the other #1s beaten him out stat wise then??? Compare the stats...I dare you. Decker almost even beat out DT....still could too with Oakland coming up. The dude has exploded in the 2nd half of the season!!


I beg to differ on this #2 talk, he's a #1. We have three #1s on this team and that doesn't even include Julius.


I think im objective enough to admit Deck probably wouldnt be a game changer on his own. I just dont think he has the build or talent to be the primary focus. However, everything else you pointed too i totally agree with. Eddy Mac was not a #1 receiver either, but he was instrumental and very important to our title runs and Decker has easily eclipsed what Mac had ever done as a pro at this point in their respective careers. Sure, Manning allows you to get other receivers and Peyton could make some of them succeed but ill still contend that Decker is better than most #2's out in the league and has done far more to prove his worth than not. Its sad that some fans under value Deck and his importance to this team.

dogfish
12-27-2013, 07:20 AM
I think when most people say "take less money" they mean "against the cap for the season". Not literally giving up like $8 mill in overall salary to sign a player or two.

then they should clarify, because that really isn't taking less at all. . .

but yea, if that's what people mean, sure. . . why wouldn't he "take less?" that type of reshuffling isn't going to free up all the money to sign a player like DRC long-term, though, . . . realistically, i'd expect that he's still an 8 mil/year or more type of corner, even in today's market. . . not sure they'll want to push that much out in new bonus money with all the other new deals we're going to have to write. . . if DRC's getting re-signed, i think we can all accept that it's a foregone conclusion that something drastic is also happening to champ's cap number first, regardless of any restructurings. . . given the weakness of our secondary, extending harris is also going to be a priority, IMO. . .

maybe i'm completely wrong, but i think people should say goodbye to decker and beadles. . . vasquez is entrenched at the other OG spot on a big new deal, and guard is easily replaceable with mid-round picks. . . zane's gone. . . demaryious and julius are the most dynamic players in our passing game, and welker will likely play here as long as manning does. . . there just isn't money for everyone, and i think decker is the obvious cap casualty. . . i just don't see any way we let one of the thomases walk to keep decker. . . moreno probably depends on what he asks for, but we might sign a cheaper vet back if we can't keep him. . .

we'll see what the market bears for philips and ayers, but if we can't bring either back, i could see us going after a cheaper vet end in the later days of FA-- probably another elway one-year deal special. . . fox develops linebackers like shanahan did RBs-- might not be a great sign for woodyard if his price tag is high. . . as well as chris clark played at LT this year, i wouldn't be shocked if he's also viewed as an insurance policy on the other side of orlando gets too expensive next year. . .


and the other point that hasn't been emphasized in this thread-- losing FAs hurts, but it can also yield compensatory picks that we can use to re-stock for the post-manning era. . . i do think this year could prove to be our single best collection of talent and best shot at it, though. . . it's a shame we've been hit so hard with injuries. . .

SR
12-27-2013, 09:35 AM
So he came to Denver because we offered the most?

I highly doubt he would've signed her if the offer was 5years/$50mil.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2013, 10:41 AM
...

and the other point that hasn't been emphasized in this thread-- losing FAs hurts, but it can also yield compensatory picks that we can use to re-stock for the post-manning era. . . i do think this year could prove to be our single best collection of talent and best shot at it, though. . . it's a shame we've been hit so hard with injuries. . .

Great point. I always forget about comp picks. I guess because we rarely get any.

Ravage!!!
12-27-2013, 01:44 PM
I don't see why you would want the best QB in the NFL, and one of the best in history, to restructure his deal. He's rewriting the record books this year and if you ask me it would be a huge slap in the face to ask or expect him to do so. Champ on the other hand, I totally agree; he needs to restructure. I don't see Decker coming back. He's going to ask a lot and Denver has bigger priorities than WR. Bringing DRC back long term is a higher priority than Decker IMO.

I disagree. It's not a slap in the face to "renegotiate" a contract. That isn't asking Manning to GIVE BACK money, nor is it asking him to get less TOTAL money in the long run. Asking Manning to "Renegotiate" is purely asking to devert his money to make it easier on Denver's cap. Not only does it make sense, its probably a MUST have.

Ravage!!!
12-27-2013, 01:48 PM
And another thing, the only way these guys take a home town discount is if we win the dang SB. If not I think some will chase the money, like DRC.

It will be interesting to see who gets the franchise tag. Theres alot of cap room with many teams this year and unfortunately, we have 16 free agents, many who will be highly looked at.

I think you have this wrong. Players that are on SUper Bowl WINNING teams do not take a home-town discount (and I don't think anyone gives a discount) or take LESS money to stay. If you are on a SUper Bowl winning team, your market value goes UP, and FA's BOLT to get the money since they JUST got the ring. Players are more likely to take less money to sign with a team that looks like its going to make a serious run AT a Super Bowl appearance.

Buff
12-27-2013, 01:50 PM
DRC is going to break the bank. Every team is looking for a tall/fast DB who can play man to man. We HAVE to re-sign him because he will be the toughest to replace via draft or on the open market.

I'd also like to keep Decker just because you can't underestimate the value of his chemistry with Manning. But I feel like he'd be easier to replace than DRC.

I'll be interested to see what we do with Moreno and Ayers. Both 1st round picks who have underachieved, but developed into solid players. I could see them both getting overpaid on the open market because front offices love former 1st rounders.

Ravage!!!
12-27-2013, 01:54 PM
All this talk about Decker being a #2. Yet he battled DR, Welker and Julius all year and STILL put up top 10 numbers in the whole NFL. Decker is better than most #1s in the NFL, you guys can't see it because our team is pretty damn stacked on offense. Why haven't all of the other #1s beaten him out stat wise then??? Compare the stats...I dare you. Decker almost even beat out DT....still could too with Oakland coming up. The dude has exploded in the 2nd half of the season!!


I beg to differ on this #2 talk, he's a #1. We have three #1s on this team and that doesn't even include Julius.

Welker is in no way a #1, and althought I LOVE Decker, I think he is a fantastic #2. I think he is MORE valuable to this team than Welker, and I personally believe that DT would be easier to replace than Decker. Yes, I know, peole are going to jump all over me for it. But Decker hasn't gotten the respect that he deserves from MANY of the posters on here. He has size, speed, runs great routes, and causes HUGE mismatches.

That stud #2 WR is HUGE, and Manning will miss Decker more than anyone else from this offense.

DenBronx
12-27-2013, 01:56 PM
How can Ravage even see my posts or able to respond to them? I have him blocked.

FanInAZ
12-27-2013, 02:11 PM
How can Ravage even see my posts or able to respond to them? I have him blocked.

If someone quotes you, he'll be able to see the comment that you made that's being quoted. However, I'm not totally sure how Ravage can quote you.

Nomad
12-27-2013, 02:11 PM
How can Ravage even see my posts or able to respond to them? I have him blocked.

I like Ravage's takes.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-27-2013, 02:13 PM
How can Ravage even see my posts or able to respond to them? I have him blocked.

I think if you have some one blocked, that means you do not see their posts, unless they are quoted. I don't think it means they can not see what you post.

DenBronx
12-27-2013, 02:18 PM
I think im objective enough to admit Deck probably wouldnt be a game changer on his own. I just dont think he has the build or talent to be the primary focus. However, everything else you pointed too i totally agree with. Eddy Mac was not a #1 receiver either, but he was instrumental and very important to our title runs and Decker has easily eclipsed what Mac had ever done as a pro at this point in their respective careers. Sure, Manning allows you to get other receivers and Peyton could make some of them succeed but ill still contend that Decker is better than most #2's out in the league and has done far more to prove his worth than not. Its sad that some fans under value Deck and his importance to this team.

I would really hate to see him go to NE.

dogfish
12-27-2013, 02:20 PM
How can Ravage even see my posts or able to respond to them? I have him blocked.

the ferocity of rav cannot be blocked. . . :lol:

Ravage!!!
12-27-2013, 02:36 PM
I think im objective enough to admit Deck probably wouldnt be a game changer on his own. I just dont think he has the build or talent to be the primary focus. However, everything else you pointed too i totally agree with. Eddy Mac was not a #1 receiver either, but he was instrumental and very important to our title runs and Decker has easily eclipsed what Mac had ever done as a pro at this point in their respective careers. Sure, Manning allows you to get other receivers and Peyton could make some of them succeed but ill still contend that Decker is better than most #2's out in the league and has done far more to prove his worth than not. Its sad that some fans under value Deck and his importance to this team.

Very well statad North. I don't think for a second that we would see Caldwell have the impact on this team if he were the opposit of DT purely because Manning is throwing the ball.

Joel
12-28-2013, 09:19 AM
I think if you have some one blocked, that means you do not see their posts, unless they are quoted. I don't think it means they can not see what you post.
That's how it works everywhere else. Ravage is right though; there's a reason SB winners get picked clean, and our chances of guys taking a discount in exchange for another shot to win it all next year only increase if we DON'T win it all this year. The SB champ and runner up will be designated targets because their players helped put a team over the top (or nearly did with the runner up) and those players will be fielding offers from EVERYWHERE. Players on other teams won't be able to wave a Ring at potential new employers.

Anyone find out our carryover situation yet? No hurry; even if someone answers it'll probably be a few days before I see it anyway.

atwater27
12-28-2013, 12:20 PM
come on, just stop. . . i'm not tryin' to be a dick, but you guys are off the reservation and clear into never-neverland with this one. . . manning is NOT that kind of guy, at all-- never has been. . . he never took one penny less than he could get in indy, and he got every cent he could on the free agent market. . . when no one knew if he could even play. . .

you think he's gonna turn around and give some of that money back now that he's playing at the highest level of his career? you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. . .
Never underestimate John Elway. Elway restructured with glorious results and got monkeys off his back. Elway convinced Peyton to come here. He was a car salesman. There is no doubt in my mind that John will use all of his powers of persuasion to convince Peyton to restructure for the chance of glorious results and getting a few of his own monkeys off of his back. Because if Peyton can't win in the playoffs and in the cold now (wink wink) how the hell does he think he will do any better with a fee agency raped team next year while being a year older?

Ziggy
12-28-2013, 12:55 PM
Welker is in no way a #1, and althought I LOVE Decker, I think he is a fantastic #2. I think he is MORE valuable to this team than Welker, and I personally believe that DT would be easier to replace than Decker. Yes, I know, peole are going to jump all over me for it. But Decker hasn't gotten the respect that he deserves from MANY of the posters on here. He has size, speed, runs great routes, and causes HUGE mismatches.

That stud #2 WR is HUGE, and Manning will miss Decker more than anyone else from this offense.

Rav if you have the games recorded, go back and focus on DT and Decker. Tell me how many times Decker is doubled with a safety over. Rarely ever, because DT is taking those double teams, and sometimes Welker as well. Yet DT is still putting up crazy numbers. He's playing at a level on par with guys like Megatron, Dez Bryant, Brandon Marshall and AJ Green this season. Decker is doing a phenomenal job against one on one coverage. He's not at that elite level like the guys I listed though. They take double teams and defenses that are game planned around them and still put up the same numbers. Decker is a very good receiver, but he's not going to be harder to replace than DT.

Northman
12-28-2013, 01:13 PM
Rav if you have the games recorded, go back and focus on DT and Decker. Tell me how many times Decker is doubled with a safety over. Rarely ever, because DT is taking those double teams, and sometimes Welker as well. Yet DT is still putting up crazy numbers. He's playing at a level on par with guys like Megatron, Dez Bryant, Brandon Marshall and AJ Green this season. Decker is doing a phenomenal job against one on one coverage. He's not at that elite level like the guys I listed though. They take double teams and defenses that are game planned around them and still put up the same numbers. Decker is a very good receiver, but he's not going to be harder to replace than DT.

You must of missed that KC game where DT went out and Decker caught 4 TD's. Again ill state that Deck is not a Larry Fitz but the constant downplaying of Deck's importance and talent is just downright sad in my opinion. Both Deck and DT have been putting up numbers since they came to Denver. And keep in mind DT has been hurt a good portion of his career so the whole double team thing doesnt even apply to most of Decker's numbers. As far as replacing DT, well your wrong there too. We had a guy named Brandon Marshall at one time and he was eventually replaced and rather quickly.

BroncoWave
12-28-2013, 01:15 PM
As far as replacing DT, well your wrong there too. We had a guy named Brandon Marshall at one time and he was eventually replaced and rather quickly.

So? One example doesn't mean it's easy to replace an elite WR.

BroncoWave
12-28-2013, 01:16 PM
That's like saying the Colts could get rid of Luck and be ok because of how quickly they replaced Peyton.

Northman
12-28-2013, 01:19 PM
So? One example doesn't mean it's easy to replace an elite WR.

If you consider DT elite. Both he and Decker put up similiar numbers. Both he and Decker fumble the ball and drop balls. Obviously i think DT is more talented but thinking that Decker is easy to replace is equally as naive as thinking its easy to replace DT.

BroncoWave
12-28-2013, 01:20 PM
If you consider DT elite. Both he and Decker put up similiar numbers. Both he and Decker fumble the ball and drop balls. Obviously i think DT is more talented but thinking that Decker is easy to replace is equally as naive as thinking its easy to replace DT.

Could not disagree more with this. DT is a completely different tier of talent than Decker. I don't really think it's all that close.

Ziggy
12-28-2013, 01:33 PM
You must of missed that KC game where DT went out and Decker caught 4 TD's. Again ill state that Deck is not a Larry Fitz but the constant downplaying of Deck's importance and talent is just downright sad in my opinion. Both Deck and DT have been putting up numbers since they came to Denver. And keep in mind DT has been hurt a good portion of his career so the whole double team thing doesnt even apply to most of Decker's numbers. As far as replacing DT, well your wrong there too. We had a guy named Brandon Marshall at one time and he was eventually replaced and rather quickly.

No, Marshall was replaced by a first round pick after he hit his 3rd year. That's not quickly and it's certainly a heavy price to pay. You think I'm downplaying Decker's importance and talent because I said he's easier to replace than DT? Decker is a #2 receiver on this team and many others. Arizona, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Cleveland, Cinci, Houston, Atlanta, Chicago(where he would be a #3 WR), and you could argue Philly, Green Bay, Washington, and San Diego. He would be a #1 on some, but not here. That means that he's a lower priority for the Broncos than some other players. There's no disrespect in that, just truth.

Northman
12-28-2013, 01:37 PM
No, Marshall was replaced by a first round pick after he hit his 3rd year. That's not quickly and it's certainly a heavy price top pay. You think I'm downplaying Decker's importance and talent because I said he's easier to replace than DT? Decker is a #2 receiver on this team and many others. Arizona, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Cleveland, Cinci, Houston, Atlanta, Chicago(where he would be a #3 WR), and you could argue Philly, Green Bay, Washington, and San Diego. He would be a #1 on some, but not here. That means that he's a lower priority for the Broncos than some other players. There's no disrespect in that, just truth.

Yes, i think your downplaying him but carry on.

OrangeHoof
12-28-2013, 01:44 PM
Unquestionably, the reason DT was a first-round choice and Decker was not is speed. That's why DT would be harder to replace than Decker. That's also why DT draws more double teams because, if he beats 1-on-1 coverage, he is probably gone.



Decker is a fine #2 receiver but he's unquestionably easier to replace.

dogfish
12-28-2013, 01:48 PM
Never underestimate John Elway. Elway restructured with glorious results and got monkeys off his back. Elway convinced Peyton to come here. He was a car salesman. There is no doubt in my mind that John will use all of his powers of persuasion to convince Peyton to restructure for the chance of glorious results and getting a few of his own monkeys off of his back. Because if Peyton can't win in the playoffs and in the cold now (wink wink) how the hell does he think he will do any better with a fee agency raped team next year while being a year older?

once again, to be clear. . . by "restructure," do you mean simply converting some base salary to signing bonus? if so, it won't require a sales job, any more than it ever has with any vet-- they'll just ask him and he'll do it, doesn't mean anything to him one way or the other. . .

if you think he's actually going to reduce his overall salary, i will wish you "good luck with that". . .


also, i think i'm going to leave the board from february through september, because i can already see that the level of butthurt is going to be unbearable when we most likely let decker go somewhere else on a big offer . . . people need to start steeling themselves for free agency-- we can't keep everybody this time, no matter how valuable they are. . . this is going to be an ugly summer if we don't win it this year. . .

Northman
12-28-2013, 01:52 PM
also, i think i'm going to leave the board from february through september, because i can already see that the level of butthurt is going to be unbearable when we most likely let decker go somewhere else on a big offer . . . people need to start steeling themselves for free agency-- we can't keep everybody this time, no matter how valuable they are. . . this is going to be an ugly summer if we don't win it this year. . .

It wont be that bad, probably the same as when Doom left. It happens, just have to be able to withstand it. Its only a messageboard.

Ziggy
12-28-2013, 01:56 PM
Yes, i think your downplaying him but carry on.


also, i think i'm going to leave the board from february through september, because i can already see that the level of butthurt is going to be unbearable when we most likely let decker go somewhere else on a big offer . . . people need to start steeling themselves for free agency-- we can't keep everybody this time, no matter how valuable they are. . . this is going to be an ugly summer if we don't win it this year. . .

It's probably going to be an ugly summer regardless. There's a lot of butt hurt going around already Dog, and free agency hasn't even started. I'll be hanging in the draft and free agency forum once the season ends. I rarely make it into this one in the offseason. Too much drama and never ending repetitive arguments.

Northman
12-28-2013, 01:58 PM
Of course, if Denver decides to pay Deck i can see the whining regarding that too. Its always a two way street on here.

dogfish
12-28-2013, 01:58 PM
It wont be that bad, probably the same as when Doom left. It happens, just have to be able to withstand it. Its only a messageboard.

i think it's gonna be way worse. . . most people never liked doom that much anyway, he was always somebody's whipping boy even when he was here-- people treat decker like he's their binky. . . :laugh:

not to mention, that champ bailey guy is almost certainly gone-- that one's gonna sting. . . people were able to blame doom's departure on him for the most part-- won't be that way this summer when the hard decisions get made. . .

Northman
12-28-2013, 02:05 PM
i think it's gonna be way worse. . . most people never liked doom that much anyway, he was always somebody's whipping boy even when he was here-- people treat decker like he's their binky. . . :laugh:

not to mention, that champ bailey guy is almost certainly gone-- that one's gonna sting. . . people were able to blame doom's departure on him for the most part-- won't be that way this summer when the hard decisions get made. . .

I admit, i like Decker and think he's a undervalued player but if leaves for money than he leaves. Ive seen good players go before so it would be no different here. Dont have to like it but it happens. Im ready for Bailey to move on, i just think he's done personally.

atwater27
12-28-2013, 02:10 PM
The Dumervil thing still stings me. effing fax machine.