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View Full Version : Vic Lombardi speculates Woodyard has been demoted.



BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 04:21 PM
I put speculates because he isn't officially reporting it, but based on his tweets today he seems to think this is the case.


John Fox's press conference. Wouldn't specify exactly why Woodyard's playing time has been reduced. Trevathan calling the defensive plays.


Woodyard's lack of playing time has little to do with his neck injury. He wants to play. Says he's healthy enough to play.


RT @Writingez99: You think they're protecting him until playoffs?--->>nah. don't buy that. demoted.

Northman
12-09-2013, 04:22 PM
Hmmm, wondered what happened. He was doing so good.

broncosinindy
12-09-2013, 04:27 PM
I'll take a wait and see appriacb . Very very interesting though. He's not a mike though..

broncosinindy
12-09-2013, 04:27 PM
And it is kinda weird cause we are great against the run.. and have been pretty bad at his strength

G_Money
12-09-2013, 04:30 PM
Ooof. That's a mistake, if so. I assumed they were being careful with him. If they're pulling him off the field and leaving the defensive captaincy to Trevathan while putting Lenon out there a bunch, I'm gonna get a lot less optimistic.

~G

aberdien
12-09-2013, 04:33 PM
Better be a damn good reason.

BigDaddyBronco
12-09-2013, 04:35 PM
Maybe he broke a team rule or something. I thought he had been playing ok.

G_Money
12-09-2013, 04:35 PM
Woodyard is the D captain. It's not like DJ Williams where the dude gets a second DUI to get stripped of that leadership and field time. Replacing your defensive captain in the middle of the year is a BAD idea. I'd heard he was still injured and gutting it out, so seeing him in part-time duty against a team we should (and did) destroy was completely understandable.

Vic saying Woodyard states he's "completely healthy" makes sense too, because the guy wants to play.

Fox NOT saying that they were just being cautious and keeping Wes safe and healing for another week makes me nervous.

~G

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
12-09-2013, 04:37 PM
I thought Wood was playing well. He kind of looked out of position when he dropped back into zone coverage the previous few games. He'd either drop too deep or not deep enough. Other than that, this is pretty shocking/odd. It's hard to believe Paris Lenon is an upgrade.

G_Money
12-09-2013, 04:38 PM
Maybe he broke a team rule or something. I thought he had been playing ok.

Woodyard is our Walter Payton Man of The Year nominee for team and community leadership for the THIRD TIME IN FOUR YEARS. He wasn't even starting when he started getting those nods. If he broke a rule it wasn't by throwing quarters at strippers or having a boat orgy.

~G

Denver Native (Carol)
12-09-2013, 04:39 PM
Vic was also on the fan with Drew/Scott, and stated the same thing, but adding, that does not mean that Woodward can not earn his starting spot back.

BigDaddyBronco
12-09-2013, 04:40 PM
Woodyard is our Walter Payton Man of The Year nominee for team and community leadership for the THIRD TIME IN FOUR YEARS. He wasn't even starting when he started getting those nods. If he broke a rule it wasn't by throwing quarters at strippers or having a boat orgy.

~G

Nah I was thinking being late to a team meeting or something.

G_Money
12-09-2013, 04:42 PM
My only thought is that they think Woodyard is too small to play the Mike and that's why he's getting injured, so they're working on contingency plans and making sure the backups get field time in case they're needed in the playoffs if there's an injury recurrence. If Trevathan goes out, Woody can go back to his normal Will position. If Miller gets hurt we've already played 6 games with those options. But we definitely suffered without Woodyard in there, so our backup options for him the first time around were either not good or not fully prepared.

Now we're trying to see if Lenon is at all useful or if we need to go with a three safety look (which we also deployed on occasion on Sunday) if Wes goes down again and we need to make a quick decision in a playoff game. We're just testing those scenarios using the Titans as a scout team.

That's all I got.

~G

slim
12-09-2013, 04:56 PM
I wondered at the beginning of the year if playing mike would wear him down. Maybe it's as simple as that.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-09-2013, 05:00 PM
In Fox's post game interview last night, he stated something about the neck injury Woodward got in the Dallas game, and then added they were resting some players. Who knows.

BigDaddyBronco
12-09-2013, 05:45 PM
Not a bad idea to rest him and get him ready for the playoffs. We need as many of the starters healthy as we can get.

Ziggy
12-09-2013, 06:08 PM
I really don't see Lenon as an upgrade over Woody. Losing Vick has cost us in the run game. Williams played very well against the Titans, but this D isn't the same without big Vick. I wonder if the Broncos want more beef at MLB on run downs with him out. Other than that I can't think of a reason that Woody shouldn't be in there. Maybe I'm missing something here.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
12-09-2013, 06:28 PM
I wonder how this affects Woodyard being that he is in a contract year right now.

LawDog
12-09-2013, 06:35 PM
Woody saying he is healthy and ready to play is not the same thing about him whining about not getting enough snaps. Any record of him complaining about playing time? I'm wondering why Vic is stirring up crap when there is likely nothing there. I haven't seen anything from either Woody or the D coaching staff that would indicate the kind of shenanigans involved in some double secret probation nonsense.

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 06:39 PM
Woody saying he is healthy and ready to play is not the same thing about him whining about not getting enough snaps. Any record of him complaining about playing time? I'm wondering why Vic is stirring up crap when there is likely nothing there. I haven't seen anything from either Woody or the D coaching staff that would indicate the kind of shenanigans involved in some double secret probation nonsense.

This tweet Vic just sent out might answer your question a bit:

"RT @fiffan852: @VicLombardi But why do you think he was demoted? ---perhaps just a short term thing. He's not thrilled about it."

So either he's making up that he's not thrilled about it, or he knows a little more about the situation than we do.

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 06:43 PM
His latest tweet makes a really good point:

"@Mr_MileHighMan @CJ_BroncosPFS @Bronco_ If the idea is to keep him fresh and injury-free, why play him on kickoffs?"

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 06:47 PM
From Lindsay Jones:

"RT @ESPNLockerRoom: Woodyard says he’s been told to take a decreased role to get ready for the playoffs. “I don’t like it.” Woodyard says"

LawDog
12-09-2013, 06:52 PM
From Lindsay Jones:

"RT @ESPNLockerRoom: Woodyard says he’s been told to take a decreased role to get ready for the playoffs. “I don’t like it.” Woodyard says"

I think this last one pretty well describes the situation.

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 06:53 PM
I think this last one pretty well describes the situation.

But that begs the question Vic asked. If you are trying to keep him fresh for the playoffs, why are you playing him on special teams?

LawDog
12-09-2013, 06:57 PM
But that begs the question Vic asked. If you are trying to keep him fresh for the playoffs, why are you playing him on special teams?

Because special teams would completely implode without him?

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 06:58 PM
Because special teams would completely implode without him?

Because they were so great with him against Tennessee?

LawDog
12-09-2013, 07:02 PM
Because they were so great with him against Tennessee?

Didn't see game, was Woody playing on the early return when Leon Washington went about 97 yards?

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 07:05 PM
Didn't see game, was Woody playing on the early return when Leon Washington went about 97 yards?

I don't know, I don't really pay very close attention who is on the field during those plays.

But still, if they are trying to keep him healthy for the playoffs, he should not be out there on special teams. His health for the playoffs is more important than whatever marginal improvement he might make on special teams.

Same with Welker. It blows my mind that we put him out there on punt returns with his concussion issues. Our coaches seem a bit reckless with whom they put on the field for special teams.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-09-2013, 07:31 PM
I've felt for a few weeks it was time to move Woody to WLB and move Danny T to Mike.

Dapper Dan
12-09-2013, 07:55 PM
I hope everything goes well. I really like Woodyard, he's one of my favorite players. I nearly jumped out of Arrowhead when he got that interception in the endzone. He's the type of player I like having on a team that I root for. I hope this doesn't screw anything up.

dogfish
12-09-2013, 08:42 PM
the announcers said during the game that del rio told them they were going to play lenon more to rest woodyard for the stretch run. . . vic's reaching, much ado about nothing. . .


:defense:

Ziggy
12-09-2013, 08:48 PM
the announcers said during the game that del rio told them they were going to play lenon more to rest woodyard for the stretch run. . . vic's reaching, much ado about nothing. . .


:defense:

Good to hear. I missed that during the broadcast. We need Woody healthy and rested in the playoffs.

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 09:14 PM
He has to be rested for all of those special teams snaps I guess!

Dapper Dan
12-09-2013, 09:17 PM
I guess special teams wouldn't take as bad of a toll. How many defensive plays are there compared to special teams plays in a game?

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 09:23 PM
I guess special teams wouldn't take as bad of a toll. How many defensive plays are there compared to special teams plays in a game?

It's just an unnecessary risk. The difference his presence on special teams make is likely minimal at best. Is that minimal difference worth the chance of him getting blindsided and injured on a freak play?

dogfish
12-09-2013, 09:23 PM
He has to be rested for all of those special teams snaps I guess!

relax. . . special teams actually are important, and can affect the outcome of games just as much as any other play. . . it's not my preference either, but he has played teams the whole time he's been here-- if they think he's critical to the unit, then i guess that's how it is. . . it's not like the game was close late, as long as he does get snaps off, i don't care so much where they come from. . . i do think it's the right way to handle a LB his size, on a team that's all about what we get done in the playoffs at this point. . . keeping wes healthy (and fresh, he's played a lot of snaps this year) is an important component to our odds. . .

dogfish
12-09-2013, 09:24 PM
The difference his presence on special teams make is likely minimal at best.

you'll forgive us if some of us question your qualifications to make this assertion. . . el oh el. . .

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 09:26 PM
relax. . . special teams actually are important, and can affect the outcome of games just as much as any other play. . . it's not my preference either, but he has played teams the whole time he's been here-- if they think he's critical to the unit, then i guess that's how it is. . . it's not like the game was close late, as long as he does get snaps off, i don't care so much where they come from. . . i do think it's the right way to handle a LB his size, on a team that's all about what we get done in the playoffs at this point. . . keeping wes healthy (and fresh, he's played a lot of snaps this year) is an important component to our odds. . .

I just don't like the idea of putting big time starters on special teams. Same with having Welker return punts. The downside just outweighs the upside IMO.

BroncoWave
12-09-2013, 09:27 PM
you'll forgive us if some of us question your qualifications to make this assertion. . . el oh el. . .

Did I claim to be qualified? I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. Care to stick to that topic?

Hawgdriver
12-09-2013, 10:46 PM
I think speculate is the right word for all this.

Dzone
12-09-2013, 10:47 PM
What have Woodyards stats been? Did he drop off or something? I hadnt noticed. Is he still feeling a stinger from the dallas game? Like does he have pain shooting down his arm? If they are trying to get him healed up, not sure special teams is the place to do that. Kind of weird.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2013, 11:07 PM
I think the fans are letting their emotions speak. Considering he's the MLB.. he NEEDS to be sure to make the right calls, adjustments, as WELL as get to the right place when the play starts. As much as we've liked some of the play he's had, he VERY WELL could be making the WRONG calls on the field, and not getting to where he is supposed to go. Coaches aren't going to simply not play their best players if it is BEST for the team to have him on the field. Stats and the drop-off of stats don't mean anything to coaches. They go by the game film.

Army Bronco
12-09-2013, 11:18 PM
According to their posted depth chart Woody is the Mike and Danny is the Will. Maybe its testing out diff positions.

Dzone
12-09-2013, 11:54 PM
the announcers said during the game that del rio told them they were going to play lenon more to rest woodyard for the stretch run. . . vic's reaching, much ado about nothing. . .


:defense:
Yes, I heard them say that and figured it was no big deal..now all this speculation is making me wonder...is he hurting? is he making mistakes on the field? Is Lenon a better choice right now?

Denver Native (Carol)
12-10-2013, 12:59 AM
Fox also didn't elaborate much on Sunday's defensive switches. Safety Omar Bolden and linebacker Paris Lenon got time at the expense of Duke Ihenacho and Wesley Woodyard, respectively, and Fox said the players simply earned more time and got it.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24687972/derek-wolfe-return-broncos-john-fox-says-wes

Salutethis
12-10-2013, 01:05 AM
I really think the team was in a rest mode... hoping they play starters Thursday... we will need them.

Dapper Dan
12-10-2013, 01:06 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24687972/derek-wolfe-return-broncos-john-fox-says-wes

We simply have too many good players.

Good. I'm glad that's over.

Ziggy
12-10-2013, 01:12 AM
Bolden looked fast out there. I also like him returning kicks. He did well at it at Arizona State.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-10-2013, 01:25 AM
Bolden looked fast out there. I also like him returning kicks. He did well at it at Arizona State.

He also gave up the deep TD because of a terrible read. He gave up the deep zone to run after a TE that was already double covered.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-10-2013, 01:27 AM
Further, I have a really hard time believing they think those guys are better options than Nacho and Woody.

Hawgdriver
12-10-2013, 01:27 AM
He also gave up the deep TD because of a terrible read. He gave up the deep zone to run after a TE that was already double covered.

That was bad. He'll either learn or be out of work. I'm no expert but he just looked way behind the 8 ball.

Ziggy
12-10-2013, 01:55 AM
He also gave up the deep TD because of a terrible read. He gave up the deep zone to run after a TE that was already double covered.

True, but I'll give him some grace on his first start. I'm a big fan of Nacho and have been since training camp, but he needed to sit the pine for a game or so. His play has been horrible of late.

Joel
12-10-2013, 05:09 AM
Weird; I thought Woodyard was having a surprisingly fine year at a position where he's really too small, and don't know how we'd have survived Millers suspension without him. I certainly HOPE they're just saving him for the playoffs, because it's hard to believe Lenon an improvement (there's been no evidence of that so far.)

I wonder though, several people have noted huge powerful DTs in Knighton and Vickerson were much why we could play the run well with a 233 lb. Will at Mike: Our DTs took on the big blockers and gave our LBs clear paths to runners. Has that changed now that Vickerson's out for the year and Wolfe's out indefinitely? Do we need bigger LBs now to remain a top ten run D?

broncofaninfla
12-10-2013, 10:37 AM
There is a noticable difference in Denvers defense when Woodyard isn't playing. Not only is he Denvers best option at Mike, the entire defense plays better as he always puts them in the right spots. I buy into the resting him for the playoffs theory. Helps Lenon get better too by giving him more game reps.

LTC Pain
12-10-2013, 10:38 AM
I wondered at the beginning of the year if playing mike would wear him down. Maybe it's as simple as that.

This is what I think. And since Irving is not playing maybe a MLB is a priority in the next draft?

claymore
12-10-2013, 10:53 AM
I like that we are in a spot to move players around. I dont care if it is to rest a player, bench a player, or just looking for the best mix of players. Whatever their reasoning is, I like it.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-10-2013, 10:54 AM
This is what I think. And since Irving is not playing maybe a MLB is a priority in the next draft?

I think Woody is an excellent WLB, and Danny T played MLB in college. Danny T has the build to play Mike. I hope they can somehow make that transition, that way our three best LB's would be on the field.

I'm also wondering if losing Vickerson has something to do with it. He ate up a lot of double teams. Having him and Knighton together really helped keep Woody clean. I wonder if they are concerned about having someone a little more stout in the middle with losing big Vic.

Broncolingus
12-10-2013, 11:41 AM
Has that been confirmed that Woodyard is sitting to rest for the playoff or is it still 'best guess' mode based on everything that's come out?

slim
12-10-2013, 11:45 AM
Has that been confirmed that Woodyard is sitting to rest for the playoff or is it still 'best guess' mode based on everything that's come out?

All speculation.

Broncolingus
12-10-2013, 11:46 AM
All speculation.

Thx, brother...that's what I thought.

GEM
12-10-2013, 11:55 AM
the announcers said during the game that del rio told them they were going to play lenon more to rest woodyard for the stretch run. . . vic's reaching, much ado about nothing. . .


:defense:

I usually really like Vic, but not when he's doing this kind of reporting. It's doing harm to the guy that could force him to want out of Denver.

GEM
12-10-2013, 11:55 AM
He has to be rested for all of those special teams snaps I guess!

When your special teams looks like our special teams, ya need all the help you can get.

jhildebrand
12-10-2013, 12:04 PM
Del Rio has been clear on several occasions what he thinks of Woodyard. He is very high on the guy to say the least. I don't believe that has changed one bit. As for Woodyard playing ST's but not snaps-the 53 man roster is a lot more limited than some people realize and it is easy to put a guy there where there is a minimal chance of him having contact.

I will say I do believe this is to get Woodyard rest and recovery BUT, maybe more importantly, they are keeping him off the injury report which is huge. Also, if anyone watched closely, Lenon got destroyed in both of the D's fist 2 goal line stands. DESTROYED. Both scores were right at him. The first time he was flat on his back. I like Vic but he needs to back off on this one. Let the team do what they need to protect Woodro a bit.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-10-2013, 01:22 PM
Injuries cannot be controlled, at least not by football coaches.

What Broncos coach John Fox and defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio can affect is the performance of their healthy players.

Seeking a more productive defensive combination of players, Fox and Del Rio, for the Broncos' game Sunday against Tennessee, replaced captain Wesley Woodyard at middle linebacker with veteran Paris Lenon and strong safety Duke Ihenacho with Omar Bolden.

Foremost, this is a performance issue. In Woodyard's case, the neck stinger he suffered in game 5 at Dallas has affected his performance. He has not been the same player, especially in the base 4-3 defense. A weakside linebacker by trade, Woodyard was moved to middle linebacker this season.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24689928/broncos-replace-defensive-players-who-are-battling-injuries

jhildebrand
12-10-2013, 01:35 PM
Again, it cannot be 100% performance. I would encourage anybody to look at the goalline stands of the first 2 Titan TDs. Lenon was victimized on both of them. Put Steven Johnson in. At least he stopped someone at the goalline.

Slick
12-10-2013, 01:42 PM
Isn't Woodyard's contract up at the end of this year? Trevathan's shown he's a more than capable WLB. If the team doesn't think Woody can hold up all season in the middle could we go in another direction next year? This offseason is going to be tough. At least we aren't the Bears. They've got 11 starters to deal with after the season.

Dzone
12-10-2013, 01:44 PM
I agree. Why wasnt Steven Johnson in the game? Maybe he was, I only saw him on st.
Heard chris landry talking about woodyard. He said woodyard has been grading out bad. Hope he is alright and can contribute.
We just have to outscore san diego. Rivers is going to have a hay day against our secondary

Ziggy
12-10-2013, 05:31 PM
If Woody has been grading out poorly, I'd rather see the Broncos flip him and Trev than take Woody off of the field completely. Let's keep the speed in the lineup. We know that Woody can play Will.

BroncoWave
12-10-2013, 06:14 PM
I saw something interesting on Twitter today. Andrew Mason posted that our two players with the lowest grades this season by PFF are Duke and Woody. So maybe Woody really is just playing worse than we all think and is getting less playing time because of it.

Ravage!!!
12-10-2013, 06:18 PM
I saw something interesting on Twitter today. Andrew Mason posted that our two players with the lowest grades this season by PFF are Duke and Woody. So maybe Woody really is just playing worse than we all think and is getting less playing time because of it.

I would say that has the highest probability.

BroncoWave
12-10-2013, 06:22 PM
This is Mason's tweet:


Of note: the 2 starters who saw reduced reps v. TEN have 2 of DEN's 4 lowest season ratings per @PFF: Woodyard (-7.1) & Ihenacho (-7.2).

I think we all kinda saw Duke was really regressing, but Woody grading that low is a surprise. It would seem like the coaches are seeing the same thing that PFF is, though.

Italianmobstr7
12-10-2013, 06:39 PM
Paris Lenon is hot garbage. Woodyard needs to go in and stay in. Fox did keep saying they were giving players who "earned the right" a chance to play. Hopefully they really are just resting him, but if not, I'll be pretty bummed. Woodyard is a beast. His INT on KC's first drive 2 weeks ago was huge. Hopefully this is all nothing too serious and he'll be able to start going forward. Seems weird that they were "resting" Woodyard by making him play special teams.

BroncoWave
12-10-2013, 06:41 PM
Paris Lenon is hot garbage. Woodyard needs to go in and stay in. Fox did keep saying they were giving players who "earned the right" a chance to play. Hopefully they really are just resting him, but if not, I'll be pretty bummed. Woodyard is a beast. His INT on KC's first drive 2 weeks ago was huge. Hopefully this is all nothing too serious and he'll be able to start going forward. Seems weird that they were "resting" Woodyard by making him play special teams.

PFF tends to do a good job of rating players. They are pretty highly respected in their grades. If they say Woodyard has been one of our 4 worst players this season, then maybe he really is worse than what we, the fans, see.

If we were just resting Woodyard for the playoffs, he wouldn't be out there on special teams IMO. Teams just don't put their top starters on special teams.

Ravage!!!
12-10-2013, 06:51 PM
Paris Lenon is hot garbage. Woodyard needs to go in and stay in. Fox did keep saying they were giving players who "earned the right" a chance to play. Hopefully they really are just resting him, but if not, I'll be pretty bummed. Woodyard is a beast. His INT on KC's first drive 2 weeks ago was huge. Hopefully this is all nothing too serious and he'll be able to start going forward. Seems weird that they were "resting" Woodyard by making him play special teams.

If a player isn't going wehre he's supposed to go, and isn't doing the assignments he's supposed to do, that puts the coaches in a tough spot. How do you start a guy that isn't doing what he's SUPPOSED to do.

Ex: If a DB was COMPLETELY out of position, yet came up with an INT because he just happened to be there...... do the coaches see the INT or do they see that he was in the wrong spot? The RESULT was fantastic!

If the coach is saying to the media, that he's playing players that have EARNED the right to play.... that is a DIRECT statement to the player that is not playing. That is saying something significant, imo.

LawDog
12-10-2013, 06:51 PM
This is Mason's tweet:



I think we all kinda saw Duke was really regressing, but Woody grading that low is a surprise. It would seem like the coaches are seeing the same thing that PFF is, though.

According to NFL.com player stats, Woody is tied for 16th among AFC linebackers (tied for 5th among AFC MLB's) and is tied for 38th (tied for 12th MLB) in the league. Only Danny ranks higher among Denver linebackers. Don't really see that as a bust year, especially factoring in his injury.

Ravage!!!
12-10-2013, 06:53 PM
According to NFL.com player stats, Woody is tied for 16th among AFC linebackers (tied for 5th among AFC MLB's) and is tied for 38th (tied for 12th MLB) in the league. Only Danny ranks higher among Denver linebackers. Don't really see that as a bust year, especially factoring in his injury.

It's not a "bust"... but that's not grading out the player as to what he's SUPPOSED to be doing on teh field. IF he's supposed to go right and he doesn't, yet still happens to make a tackle...... that isn't a good grade.

LawDog
12-10-2013, 06:56 PM
It's not a "bust"... but that's not grading out the player as to what he's SUPPOSED to be doing on teh field. IF he's supposed to go right and he doesn't, yet still happens to make a tackle...... that isn't a good grade.

I've never looked at how PFF grades and am too cheap to buy their premium package so I will just have to take your word for it. Just providing another reference point.

Ravage!!!
12-10-2013, 07:03 PM
I've never looked at how PFF grades and am too cheap to buy their premium package so I will just have to take your word for it. Just providing another reference point.

Yeah.. I know. I'm just saying that when it comes to grading players, the stats can very easily lie.

turftoad
12-10-2013, 07:03 PM
According to NFL.com player stats, Woody is tied for 16th among AFC linebackers (tied for 5th among AFC MLB's) and is tied for 38th (tied for 12th MLB) in the league. Only Danny ranks higher among Denver linebackers. Don't really see that as a bust year, especially factoring in his injury.

Not a bust year for sure. I'm also sure those rankings include Pre injury performance also or he probably would rank higher. I think he's not 100% so they are taking easy with him. IMO

claymore
12-10-2013, 09:05 PM
Linebacker Wesley Woodyard and safety Duke Ihenacho, both of whom were benched Sunday, were working with the scout team on defense.
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24694960/broncos-peyton-manning-practices-wes-welker-champ-bailey

This has to be embarrassing to Woodyard and Nacho. I hope we see some angry ass competition. Not "ass" competition, but normal competition.

BroncoWave
12-10-2013, 10:15 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24694960/broncos-peyton-manning-practices-wes-welker-champ-bailey

This has to be embarrassing to Woodyard and Nacho. I hope we see some angry ass competition. Not "ass" competition, but normal competition.

Really hope they don't get sulky and phone it in. It can go either way sometimes. Hopefully they respond like Knowshon did last year.

tomjonesrocks
12-10-2013, 10:22 PM
I wish the coaches were more forthcoming about this--or they have communicated more to Woodyard in the last couple days.

I figured he was hurt, or worst-case, they simply felt they needed more size at his position with all the 2 TE sets the Titans run.

Woodyard is one of my favorites on D. I would HATE to see him leave.

Hopefully he gets his usual reps gout forward and we are worrying for nothing.

Hawgdriver
12-10-2013, 10:27 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24694960/broncos-peyton-manning-practices-wes-welker-champ-bailey

This has to be embarrassing to Woodyard and Nacho. I hope we see some angry ass competition. Not "ass" competition, but normal competition.

Posts like this prove you are the shit.

Buff
12-11-2013, 12:52 AM
I saw something interesting on Twitter today. Andrew Mason posted that our two players with the lowest grades this season by PFF are Duke and Woody. So maybe Woody really is just playing worse than we all think and is getting less playing time because of it.

Woodyard is supremely overrated around here. Which is a weird thing to say about a guy who was an undrafted free agent with no expectations coming into the league.

Don't get me wrong - he is a good leader, and he proved to be an upgrade over Joe Mays. I think he is definitely a better player than Paris Lenon. He is a good open field tackler with great instincts. But he regularly gets beat in pass coverage and he is undersized which leads to a number of other issues. I think he currently gives us the best chance to win at that position, but I think people fall in love with his UDFA/late bloomer story and his personality which maybe buys him a little more leeway than most players.

Dapper Dan
12-11-2013, 08:12 AM
Woodyard is supremely overrated around here. Which is a weird thing to say about a guy who was an undrafted free agent with no expectations coming into the league.

Don't get me wrong - he is a good leader, and he proved to be an upgrade over Joe Mays. I think he is definitely a better player than Paris Lenon. He is a good open field tackler with great instincts. But he regularly gets beat in pass coverage and he is undersized which leads to a number of other issues. I think he currently gives us the best chance to win at that position, but I think people fall in love with his UDFA/late bloomer story and his personality which maybe buys him a little more leeway than most players.

Which seems odd, because most of the posts before yours talk about Woodyard not being that good of a player.

Most people don't like Woodyard because they fell in love with an UDFA, but because he's provided good leadership and a is positive role model.

I know too many fans get all over UDFAs that have yet to play, but look at your post. You agree that Woodyard is the best option right now. Do the fans like him? Yeah. I wouldn't say he's supremely overrated.

Joel
12-11-2013, 02:20 PM
PFF tends to do a good job of rating players. They are pretty highly respected in their grades.
That depends very much on whom one asks; many people (including, but certainly not just, me) think they're awful. It's a short week; let's see who does what tomorrow.

BroncoWave
12-11-2013, 02:22 PM
That depends very much on whom one asks; many people (including, but certainly not just, me) think they're awful. It's a short week; let's see who does what tomorrow.

What do you base that opinion on? The fact that they don't rate players the way that YOU see them?

claymore
12-11-2013, 05:12 PM
Really hope they don't get sulky and phone it in. It can go either way sometimes. Hopefully they respond like Knowshon did last year.

Knowshon should be the model of how to react to getting benched. That dude has brought it. Very proud of that young man, I hope he remains a Bronco for his whole career.

Buff
12-11-2013, 06:13 PM
Which seems odd, because most of the posts before yours talk about Woodyard not being that good of a player.

Most people don't like Woodyard because they fell in love with an UDFA, but because he's provided good leadership and a is positive role model.

I know too many fans get all over UDFAs that have yet to play, but look at your post. You agree that Woodyard is the best option right now. Do the fans like him? Yeah. I wouldn't say he's supremely overrated.

I look at Woodyard like a cheap stock that had a good run in a bull market. For a while his value went unrecognized and under-appreciated, then the market recognized his talents, they overbought the stock, and at some point he became overvalued. Which doesn't mean he doesn't have real value - it just means people got a little overzealous and overrated him recently.

Joel
12-11-2013, 07:34 PM
What do you base that opinion on? The fact that they don't rate players the way that YOU see them?
My impression they tend to arbitrarily and disportionately rate stats that often seem pulled out of their rears, much like ESPNs "Total QBR" says TDs are magically worth more in the 4th quarter than in the 3rd (which means KC swept us this year; the scoreboard inexplicably says just the opposite. :rolleyes:)

I'm not the first and won't be the last to doubt PFF here or elsewhere, but admit part of my reasons are that they ranked Rahim Moore ahead of Mike Adams last year based on how each performed as a percentage of downs Denver played—because that completely ignored the fact that Moore played a lost more downs yet defended a lot LESS passes. Unsurprisingly, when Football Outsiders ranked them as a percentage of snaps they actually PLAYED, Adams came out on top in coverage (Moore was still ranked better as a tackler.)

They do sloppy stat work, so many people (myself included) don't trust it; simple as that. I'm sure glad Adams rather than Moore was defending KCs fourth down end zone pass at the end of the game two weeks ago; that knock down looked a lot better than Moore did at the end of regulation in last years playoff, whether PFF ranks Moore better in coverage or not.

Dapper Dan
12-11-2013, 07:38 PM
I look at Woodyard like a cheap stock that had a good run in a bull market. For a while his value went unrecognized and under-appreciated, then the market recognized his talents, they overbought the stock, and at some point he became overvalued. Which doesn't mean he doesn't have real value - it just means people got a little overzealous and overrated him recently.

So...you've confused me. I know, I know. Easy to do.

The fans like him too much? The team paid him too much? The team plays him too often? What has the "overvaluing" led to?

Buff
12-11-2013, 09:02 PM
So...you've confused me. I know, I know. Easy to do.

The fans like him too much? The team paid him too much? The team plays him too often? What has the "overvaluing" led to?

It just means that his popularity reached all-time highs this year and his production has never warranted it IMO. At one point there was a majority who believed that he was the #2 MVP behind Manning on the team. I just don't see it. He's a strong captain and leader - but there have always been holes in his game which is why he's always been a borderline starter/backup. I think everyone wanted to believe he'd taken it to another level - but he's the same player he's always been...

So it hasn't really led to anything other than a misguided consensus by fans that he's more valuable than he actually is IMO.

Ziggy
12-11-2013, 09:12 PM
It just means that his popularity reached all-time highs this year and his production has never warranted it IMO. At one point there was a majority who believed that he was the #2 MVP behind Manning on the team. I just don't see it. He's a strong captain and leader - but there have always been holes in his game which is why he's always been a borderline starter/backup. I think everyone wanted to believe he'd taken it to another level - but he's the same player he's always been...

So it hasn't really led to anything other than a misguided consensus by fans that he's more valuable than he actually is IMO.

Count me as one of those. I thought he was playing really well at the beginning of the season, and the D really went downhill went he went out with injury. I don't think that he ever came back fully healthy. We'll find out next season, though it may be with another team.

Buff
12-11-2013, 09:30 PM
Count me as one of those. I thought he was playing really well at the beginning of the season, and the D really went downhill went he went out with injury. I don't think that he ever came back fully healthy. We'll find out next season, though it may be with another team.

I think you are correct that he's not fully healthy. The league is so unforgiving - guys are expected to suit up and play when they are feeling 60%-70%, and yet they're held to the same standard as when they are healthy. This definitely doesn't help him in a contract year though... Maybe the team brings him back at a reduced rate in a reduced role?

Dapper Dan
12-11-2013, 10:41 PM
He doesn't get beat like Joe Mays did. He's a good tackler. He's a good leader. He can make plays. I think he has his flaws. I don't see us easily upgrading the position. I feel like he's an adequate starter and feel more comfortable with him starting than having another hole to fill.

Fans will probably talk well of him. He is an outstanding character. He's definitely outplayed his draft stock. People will always make wild assumptions. Everyone on this team is the best evar. Get ready for Superb Owl #3.

Jaded
12-12-2013, 12:23 AM
Superb Owl?

Dapper Dan
12-12-2013, 12:26 AM
Superb Owl?

Yeah. You never watch the Superb Owl?

Jaded
12-12-2013, 12:28 AM
Yeah. You never watch the Superb Owl?

Hell yeah, I got all their records.

Joel
12-12-2013, 01:55 AM
The only knock I'm aware of on him is that it's hard to be a run stuffing 4-3 Mike at 233 lbs. He's as good in coverage as one would expect of a 4-3 Will, makes good reads, calls good audibles, is quick to the ball and doesn't miss tackles. Not sure what more anyone could want.

Buff
12-12-2013, 10:27 AM
The only knock I'm aware of on him is that it's hard to be a run stuffing 4-3 Mike at 233 lbs. He's as good in coverage as one would expect of a 4-3 Will, makes good reads, calls good audibles, is quick to the ball and doesn't miss tackles. Not sure what more anyone could want.

I would actually argue his pass coverage is a big deficiency and borderline liability.

Joel
12-12-2013, 10:50 AM
I would actually argue his pass coverage is a big deficiency and borderline liability.
That happened awfully quick then; he did get DJs job, after all, and DJ cut his teeth covering the likes of Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez twice a year for a decade, and very well.

GEM
12-12-2013, 11:07 AM
I would actually argue his pass coverage is a big deficiency and borderline liability.

My 17 year old said the same thing on pass coverage. I didn't believe him, he played it back and showed quite a few plays that show he really is. My boy was a linebacker, so he pays close attention to them. He loves Trevathon. He pointed out things that I don't look for in the big picture of a live game.

Ravage!!!
12-12-2013, 11:13 AM
The only knock I'm aware of on him is that it's hard to be a run stuffing 4-3 Mike at 233 lbs. He's as good in coverage as one would expect of a 4-3 Will, makes good reads, calls good audibles, is quick to the ball and doesn't miss tackles. Not sure what more anyone could want.

This is where you are probably most incorrect. A player doesn't get poor grades for making good reads and good audiblles. You are speculatig on a very limited knowledge base on these matters.

Reads, angles and audibles is most likely where he's getting the worst in grading, and that probably has a LOT to to with the fact that he isn't really a MLB. People bashed on DJ because he wasn't a good MLB. The position change may only look a few feet to the middle, but the job is completely different.

Dapper Dan
12-12-2013, 03:36 PM
This is where you are probably most incorrect. A player doesn't get poor grades for making good reads and good audiblles. You are speculatig on a very limited knowledge base on these matters.

Reads, angles and audibles is most likely where he's getting the worst in grading, and that probably has a LOT to to with the fact that he isn't really a MLB. People bashed on DJ because he wasn't a good MLB. The position change may only look a few feet to the middle, but the job is completely different.

I thought he was a good MLB. I bashed him because I think he may be an idiot.

Broncolingus
12-12-2013, 04:34 PM
Trevathan kinda reminds me of Predator...


http://beforeitsnews.com/mediadrop/uploads/2013/38/a1b2111510cf070468ec5d75e50e64633361179f.jpg ---------- http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb52/The_Playlist/more/predator.jpg


...only Predator can annunciate better.

NightTrainLayne
12-12-2013, 04:46 PM
Trevathan kinda reminds me of Predator...


http://beforeitsnews.com/mediadrop/uploads/2013/38/a1b2111510cf070468ec5d75e50e64633361179f.jpg ---------- http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb52/The_Playlist/more/predator.jpg


...only Predator can annunciate better.

That's Racist!

GEM
12-12-2013, 05:17 PM
That's Racist!

Is that racist or alienist?

BroncoWave
12-12-2013, 05:33 PM
Is that racist or alienist?

I think we need to report this to the NAAET