Chris Harris Jr = Penalties?

[artie_dale]

Hey all, is it just me, or does Chris Harris Jr rack up a fair share of penalties week in and week out? I can't help but recall in this season that he has stacked up an absurd amount of pass interference and hold penalties. He seems very "grabby" to me. Like the little guy who resorts to more physical contact in order to level the playing field. Scrappy and fearless, if you will. Not saying it's wrong or right for him to resort to that kind of thing, just wondering if there is anyone else out there who sees it too.

But, isn't that worth being concerning about down the stretch? Games get lost due to penalties that result in huge yards gained or just automatic first downs.

[Dzone]

All I remember about Chris Harris yesterday was him making play after play...That kid can play

[GEM]

Hey all, is it just me, or does Chris Harris Jr rack up a fair share of penalties week in and week out? I can't help but recall in this season that he has stacked up an absurd amount of pass interference and hold penalties. He seems very "grabby" to me. Like the little guy who resorts to more physical contact in order to level the playing field. Scrappy and fearless, if you will. Not saying it's wrong or right for him to resort to that kind of thing, just wondering if there is anyone else out there who sees it too.

But, isn't that worth being concerning about down the stretch? Games get lost due to penalties that result in huge yards gained or just automatic first downs.

I didn't see that. The only DB that gets called continually that I remember is Carter. That guy gets called just about every time he's on the field. Don't remember it so much with Harris.

[artie_dale]

Maybe that's it. I should have said that I tried looking up individual penalty stats but I couldn't find anything. I am curious though if anyone knows where to find that kind of thing.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

I remember a few penalties, but the one that sticks out was the holding penalty he got that cost us an interception. I think that call was BS though.

I've noticed teams are starting to lineup their bigger WRs in the slot. Jacksonville did it with Blackmon; KC did it with Bowe a few times. Chris Harris can play, but big WRs can create matchup problems for him.

[Lancane]

It's deceptive, but defensive backs who draw fewer penalties seem to be less effective in the modern, pass happy NFL. It's because the rules of the league favor offensive passing to such a degree that corners and safeties have to be sated with an incomplete pass near or so to the degree they do with an interception. And if you compare, the DB's of today don't have interception numbers compared to those a decade or more ago... Simply look at the size of the athletes that now hold sway at wide receiver position and are starting to be popular at the corner position, they are bigger and taller then their counterparts of yesteryear, more like Tight Ends in all truthfulness.

Harris has stepped up just fine in place of a weakened defensive backfield that has no true number one, Rodgers-Cromartie is the best corner the Broncos have and Bailey at this point and stage is comparable to Harris in some ways, but at least Harris is younger and quicker. Webster and Carter provide solid depth, but neither has really stepped up in light of the injuries to Bailey or DRC, Harris has and he's made a difference doing so.

The Broncos are going to have a huge quandary at the end of the season, Rodgers-Cromartie has earned a long-term contract, Bailey and the team are in a splitting year in his contract (meaning they can part ways with less of a fiscal penalty to the team itself) and Harris is a RFA who could be sought out by teams looking for a solid number two corner, so Denver could get a draft pick at least in return.

[GEM]

I hope Harris doesn't go anywhere. It's been nice to see some home grown talent, meaning guys that we got initially and they've stuck around. I like what they are doing with defense. Keeping guys and letting them grow into their roles with a few add ins where needed.

[Lancane]

I would tend to agree with that GEM, but the problem is that Denver has a huge list of key free agents this off-season, a total of seven starters I believe will be free agents and for a championship caliber team that is huge, because many will be ridiculously sought out by other squads.

[artie_dale]

It's deceptive, but defensive backs who draw fewer penalties seem to be less effective in the modern, pass happy NFL. It's because the rules of the league favor offensive passing to such a degree that corners and safeties have to be sated with an incomplete pass near or so to the degree they do with an interception. And if you compare, the DB's of today don't have interception numbers compared to those a decade or more ago... Simply look at the size of the athletes that now hold sway at wide receiver position and are starting to be popular at the corner position, they are bigger and taller then their counterparts of yesteryear, more like Tight Ends in all truthfulness.

Harris has stepped up just fine in place of a weakened defensive backfield that has no true number one, Rodgers-Cromartie is the best corner the Broncos have and Bailey at this point and stage is comparable to Harris in some ways, but at least Harris is younger and quicker. Webster and Carter provide solid depth, but neither has really stepped up in light of the injuries to Bailey or DRC, Harris has and he's made a difference doing so.

The Broncos are going to have a huge quandary at the end of the season, Rodgers-Cromartie has earned a long-term contract, Bailey and the team are in a splitting year in his contract (meaning they can part ways with less of a fiscal penalty to the team itself) and Harris is a RFA who could be sought out by teams looking for a solid number two corner, so Denver could get a draft pick at least in return.

Yes. I am very pleased with DRC and am glad we snagged him. I love our young CBs & Safeties. The future in that position looks good. I am curious what we do with Champ. He claims he still has it in him to play at that same high level. I'd personally prefer he be the Dime or a Safety (although, I already love Duke & Rahim back there). He's still a very intelligent DB and effective tackler. But, he's having a hard time keeping up with speedy WRs these days.

[LuisPastrana4]

I was at the game yesterday and Champ looked terrible at first and then he got it going, but by the end of the game I saw a lot more of Jammer/Kwebb with Harris staying on the slot.

[TXBRONC]

Like others have said I didn't see him racking up penalties.

[TXBRONC]

I hope Harris doesn't go anywhere. It's been nice to see some home grown talent, meaning guys that we got initially and they've stuck around. I like what they are doing with defense. Keeping guys and letting them grow into their roles with a few add ins where needed.

Carter can make plays but when when he has defend bigger and stronger receiver he struggles. First game of the he was on Torrey Smith in the red zone had him stopped two or three yards short of a first down Smith managed to drag him to the first down marker.

[Mike]

I was at the game yesterday and Champ looked terrible at first and then he got it going, but by the end of the game I saw a lot more of Jammer/Kwebb with Harris staying on the slot.

I think his conditioning is off. I don't expect him to come back and just pick it up. So I am hoping that the Broncos are working him slowly back into the game.

[Lancane]

Yes. I am very pleased with DRC and am glad we snagged him. I love our young CBs & Safeties. The future in that position looks good. I am curious what we do with Champ. He claims he still has it in him to play at that same high level. I'd personally prefer he be the Dime or a Safety (although, I already love Duke & Rahim back there). He's still a very intelligent DB and effective tackler. But, he's having a hard time keeping up with speedy WRs these days.

I use to think he'd be moved to safety or to the nickel as he wore down, but in reality I think Bailey is done in Denver. Either he retires at the end of the year, which is likely a given should we actually win a championship or the team and him will finally part. They have too much tied up in him financially with such little production, especially when that money is better spent locking up Decker, Rodgers-Cromartie, Ihenacho, Phillips and Woodyard, not to mention they'll have to decide what to do about Moreno who has finally broken out and will be worth top dollar and has become a UFA do to his playing time. Here is a list of Denver's 2014 NFL Free Agents: http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/denver-broncos/

I just don't see how Bailey can be retained for so much and for what little the team receives.

[artie_dale]

I use to think he'd be moved to safety or to the nickel as he wore down, but in reality I think Bailey is done in Denver. Either he retires at the end of the year, which is likely a given should we actually win a championship or the team and him will finally part. They have too much tied up in him financially with such little production, especially when that money is better spent locking up Decker, Rodgers-Cromartie, Ihenacho, Phillips and Woodyard, not to mention they'll have to decide what to do about Moreno who has finally broken out and will be worth top dollar and has become a UFA do to his playing time. Here is a list of Denver's 2014 NFL Free Agents: http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/denver-broncos/

I just don't see how Bailey can be retained for so much and for what little the team receives.

I agree. Except for the part where Moreno has earned top dollar. I honestly believe the market for him won't be high. He's taken a beating this season and has had injury hamper past seasons. I love what he's done for us, but I honestly don't think other teams would be willing to invest top dollar in him after it took so long for him to be as productive. I think as long as he's handcuffed to the likes of Peyton Manning, he will be productive. But, under most other NFL offenses, he's not someone the team can depend on to carry them; not like AP, not like DeMarco Murrey, not like LeSean McCoy, and not like Alfred Morris. Knowshon shows flashes, but ultimately, his work ethic and determination make him productive and reliable. I'm sure he'll stay humble and hopefully work something reasonable out with Denver.

[artie_dale]

Like others have said I didn't see him racking up penalties.

I didn't mean in just yesterday's game. I'm talking about through the season. Seems to me he'll get at least one penalty against him each week.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I use to think he'd be moved to safety or to the nickel as he wore down, but in reality I think Bailey is done in Denver. Either he retires at the end of the year, which is likely a given should we actually win a championship or the team and him will finally part. They have too much tied up in him financially with such little production, especially when that money is better spent locking up Decker, Rodgers-Cromartie, Ihenacho, Phillips and Woodyard, not to mention they'll have to decide what to do about Moreno who has finally broken out and will be worth top dollar and has become a UFA do to his playing time. Here is a list of Denver's 2014 NFL Free Agents: http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/denver-broncos/

I just don't see how Bailey can be retained for so much and for what little the team receives.

He either has lost a step due to age or injuries, but he has not been the same guy starting late in the year last year and in to this year. I hope he rertires after a SB win as it would be an awesome way for him to go out and on to Canton, but if he doesn't then I think it will be an end like Atwater or like Ed Reed this year. I would rather see his money spent on DRC and Woodyard and partially on Von when his deal comes up.

[Lancane]

He either has lost a step due to age or injuries, but he has not been the same guy starting late in the year last year and in to this year. I hope he rertires after a SB win as it would be an awesome way for him to go out and on to Canton, but if he doesn't then I think it will be an end like Atwater or like Ed Reed this year. I would rather see his money spent on DRC and Woodyard and partially on Von when his deal comes up.

Exactly, and the following year's list of free agents is just as detrimental which includes Vickerson, Knighton, D. Thomas, J. Thomas, Franklin, Welker and Miller! And he'll be due 10 million next season unless he retires or the team parts ways with him, a million is already dead money...but that easily could secure three if not four of the bigger contributors to longer term deals.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Exactly, and the following year's list of free agents is just as detrimental which includes Vickerson, Knighton, D. Thomas, J. Thomas, Franklin, Welker and Miller! And he'll be due 10 million next season unless he retires or the team parts ways with him, a million is already dead money...but that easily could secure three if not four of the bigger contributors to longer term deals.

Doesn't PFM's cap hit start declining after next year? That should free up a bit.

Hopefully Sly steps his game up next year so we only have to pay one of those DTs. Knighton would be my choice thus far for his current health status and he has some QB hurries/sacks. Plus he is immovable in the run game.

Still not sure how we are going to pay DT, JT, Franklin, Welker, and Miller, especially with the contracts we have to pay at the end of the year. Elway has been the king of cap space so far though, so I'm sure he has a plan in place already.

[BroncoNut]

I'd say it's more touchy feely than grabby. yes, I too have noticed this with Mr. Harris and share your concern. but no, yeah, he's a bit like that .

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I would be nice if the grabby touchy stuff was called on the guy across from DT. That guy gets held and grabbed constantly. I guess db's don't know what to do with a guy who is bigger and faster than they are.

[Lancane]

Doesn't PFM's cap hit start declining after next year? That should free up a bit.

Hopefully Sly steps his game up next year so we only have to pay one of those DTs. Knighton would be my choice thus far for his current health status and he has some QB hurries/sacks. Plus he is immovable in the run game.

Still not sure how we are going to pay DT, JT, Franklin, Welker, and Miller, especially with the contracts we have to pay at the end of the year. Elway has been the king of cap space so far though, so I'm sure he has a plan in place already.

No, Manning is due 17.5 million this year and next year, over 2.5 million is his signing bonus for each season to follow, but his contract is appropriated to end fiscally should he decide to not play the following year and would need to be decided before the start of the following season - so not be on the roster. Manning will be due 21.5 million the final two years of his contract, so 2015 and 2016. Also he'd have cost the Broncos 40 million in dead money and over 20 million in dead money next season unless he retires, so the Broncos have no options in the matter till 2015.

[BroncoNut]

I was at the game yesterday and Champ looked terrible at first and then he got it going, but by the end of the game I saw a lot more of Jammer/Kwebb with Harris staying on the slot.

I watched the game on tv, and I'll be damned.....I noticed the exact same thing!!

[BroncoNut]

I would be nice if the grabby touchy stuff was called on the guy across from DT. That guy gets held and grabbed constantly. I guess db's don't know what to do with a guy who is bigger and faster than they are.

like they say, flattery is the most sincere form of imitation

[jhildebrand]

I was at the game yesterday and Champ looked terrible at first and then he got it going, but by the end of the game I saw a lot more of Jammer/Kwebb with Harris staying on the slot.

You didn't see Champ in the 4th Q because he was BENCHED! :tsk:

[jhildebrand]

The Chiefs were the beneficiaries of some home cooking. They got some soft, ticky tack def holding calls. I think one of those was against Chris Harris. I have no problem with his play. The kid is a stud. I still wonder how he wasn't invited to the combine and went undrafted.

[Ravage!!!]

You didn't see Champ in the 4th Q because he was BENCHED! :tsk:

I was going to ask if Champ was out there, because I didn't see him in the game. Was he benched due to play...or due to injury? Or injury hurting play?

[jhildebrand]

I was going to ask if Champ was out there, because I didn't see him in the game. Was he benched due to play...or due to injury? Or injury hurting play?

From what I have read it was due to play more than anything.

[Ziggy]

Harris is the best slot corner in the league. That's also the hardest position to play in today's NFL IMO. The rules are set up to help the WR's succeed and the CB's to fail so the fans can see more scoring. Re-signing Harris should be a top 3 priority in the offseason along with Woodyard and DRC.

[BroncoNut]

Harris is the best slot corner in the league. That's also the hardest position to play in today's NFL IMO. The rules are set up to help the WR's succeed and the CB's to fail so the fans can see more scoring. Re-signing Harris should be a top 3 priority in the offseason along with Woodyard and DRC.

I never heard of a slot corner. I agree with the resigning of these 3 however. what do you think of Mike Adams? I'm getting to kinda like him

[GEM]

You didn't see Champ in the 4th Q because he was BENCHED! :tsk:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000291574/article/denver-broncos-champ-bailey-benched-on-key-drive

Time is the one opponent no athlete can escape. Eventually the clock will run out.

Father Time is catching up to Champ Bailey, a 12-time Pro Bowl selection who is in his 15th NFL season.


On the final drive Sunday, with the Denver Broncos leading the Kansas City Chiefs by just seven points in a pivotal AFC West matchup, Bailey was benched in favor of rookie Kayvon Webster and little-used veteran Quentin Jammer.

Bailey was not out for an injury. Coaches pulled the All-Pro.

[claymore]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000291574/article/denver-broncos-champ-bailey-benched-on-key-drive

Without being sassy, I would like to know the opinion of the Pro Bailey camp. Is this just a bump in the ro-ad for Bailey, or is it really time for a paycut or... Position change?

[G_Money]

Well, Moore may never play again (compartment syndrome is a nightmare, I really hope they got to the surgery in time). Fingers crossed for him, but we'll need a safety next year no matter what. Maybe we just re-sign Adams (I'm sure he'd like a ring to add to the one he's gonna get this year) but we'll have to address it.

I just don't know that we can afford to have Champ and his recurring foot problems tying up that much of the cap, regardless of what position he's at. And if he can't stay on the field, welll, the bench-warming position REALLY shouldn't pay that much.

~G

[DenBronx]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000291574/article/denver-broncos-champ-bailey-benched-on-key-drive

Without being sassy, I would like to know the opinion of the Pro Bailey camp. Is this just a bump in the ro-ad for Bailey, or is it really time for a paycut or... Position change?


I think hes done. Love Champ but he hasnt been "Champ" in a long time now.

Would love to see him take a huge paycut, if not he is probably gone. No way does Elway agree to pay him 10 mill for this kind of production. He should switch to safety....just to see if thats a better spot for a 35 year old who will be 36 next season.


But yeah....I think hes done. Just really want us to get him a ring this year.

[Slick]

I thought someone said Champ was on a play count, he was going to play some, but not the whole game.

That hold on Harris that negated the interception was a hold, but we've seen much worse not called this year. I like our young secondary too, like others have said, but Nacho scares me. He takes bad angles sometimes. He's a good hitter and tackler but as Seeing Red has pointed out, he's reckless.

[Broncolingus]

Hey all, is it just me, or does Chris Harris Jr rack up a fair share of penalties week in and week out? I can't help but recall in this season that he has stacked up an absurd amount of pass interference and hold penalties. He seems very "grabby" to me. Like the little guy who resorts to more physical contact in order to level the playing field. Scrappy and fearless, if you will. Not saying it's wrong or right for him to resort to that kind of thing, just wondering if there is anyone else out there who sees it too.

But, isn't that worth being concerning about down the stretch? Games get lost due to penalties that result in huge yards gained or just automatic first downs.

I think Carter may be who you're thinking of...

...Harris has looked solid and the PI call on him yesterday that negated an interception was questionable to say the least...

JMO...

[Joel]

I remember a few penalties, but the one that sticks out was the holding penalty he got that cost us an interception. I think that call was BS though.
Several times this year it seemed to me he was getting flagged a lot, but when I looked at the plays most were much like that one. I still don't get that call; they were within 5 yds of the line and he didn't redirect or prevent an opportunity to catch a ball, so I'm not sure why any call was made, let alone PI. Even Holding would've been iffy for just dragging his hand across a receivers shoulder (we see as much contact avoid flags all the time on balls thrown TO receivers,) but if that was PI ANY contact ANYWHERE on the field is PI.

It's also seemed to me since the first KC game that refs are calling more PIs, Holds and Illegal Contacts in general as they year advances. At the start of the season it seemed like only the most flagrant fouls got called, OFFENSIVE PI was relatively common and our receivers were routinely mugged; against KC NEITHER teams DBs got away with ANYTHING. As noted then, I'm OK with that; I don't care if they call it loose or tight so long as they call it the SAME for both teams (which didn't appear the case @NE, but that's a separate rant.)

Regarding Harris though, he's a physical player but I agree his flags are nothing like Carters were last year. Webster got torched when DRC joined Champ on the sideline, but if he keeps improving as he has most of the year and we retain DRC and Harris, Carter may be expendable. That probably depends on Champ renegotiating and/or Jammer staying (injuries have promoted him, too, and he's played better than I believe most folks, coached included, expected,) but it's hard to justify a mediocre 6th CB. Maybe Carter can take his big hits to safety? :tongue:

[Broncolingus]

I think hes done. Love Champ but he hasnt been "Champ" in a long time now.

But yeah....I think hes done. Just really want us to get him a ring this year.

Agreed...I don't think he has any more gas or mileage on that chassis...

...so, let's get him his ring this year and then go out on top like another Bronco HOFer did...:D

[Joel]

I thought someone said Champ was on a play count, he was going to play some, but not the whole game.
Someone did: Champ, in a postgame interview. However, I can't recall if he or the articles author was the one to note that was due to rust and care with the injury as well as age, but one of them did. The injury kept him from practicing a lot, too, and he's probably not in midseason form at this point; that doesn't mean he can't be a starter next year.


That hold on Harris that negated the interception was a hold, but we've seen much worse not called this year. I like our young secondary too, like others have said, but Nacho scares me. He takes bad angles sometimes. He's a good hitter and tackler but as Seeing Red has pointed out, he's reckless.
It feels like that's just how how safeties play now, like they're big CBs who can't manage to grasp the NFLs flag football rules. Scary indeed, since the Horse Collar rule sent Roy Williams from the Pro Bowl to the waiver wire.

[nevcraw]

Champ is in preseason. Don't think he is the same guy but Come playoff time I expect him to be much much better. I see a pick six before its all said and done.. Someone will disrespect him just enough for a mistake.. Hope it's against Brady…
Offseason he will restructure or be gone.. I would love to see him play safety for a couple years but his body may not let him or the thought of returning to Denver making squat.

[DenBronx]

Champ is in preseason. Don't think he is the same guy but Come playoff time I expect him to be much much better. I see a pick six before its all said and done.. Someone will disrespect him just enough for a mistake.. Hope it's against Brady…
Offseason he will restructure or be gone.. I would love to see him play safety for a couple years but his body may not let him or the thought of returning to Denver making squat.

Id like Champ to pick 6 Brady in the playoffs this time. Last time he was knocked out at the 2 by their TE.

[Lancane]

I just would like to see him get his ring before his tenure is over in Denver, he's been the face of this franchise for a long-time as we went through our various woes both with Shanahan and McDaniels. However, I feel that his only shot for that is this year, I truly don't expect him back. The Broncos are high on Ihenacho and Moore, so safety is relatively out for him and as a nickel? He'd have to take a mega cut in pay, especially when we could lock up Rodgers-Cromartie, Harris, Woodyard and Ihenacho for what the team is paying him.

[TXBRONC]

I think his conditioning is off. I don't expect him to come back and just pick it up. So I am hoping that the Broncos are working him slowly back into the game.

There was comment made the other day that Champ was on a "pitch count" that's why he just disappeared from the game.