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SR
12-01-2013, 07:48 PM
Congrats kiddo...you had a great game and gained back that confidence. Looking forward to seeing more of these games from you. Joel?

MOtorboat
12-01-2013, 07:56 PM
It's a good thing they didn't tinker with the offense.

SR
12-01-2013, 07:57 PM
It's a good thing they didn't tinker with the offense.

Good thing huh?

NightTerror218
12-01-2013, 08:05 PM
Kid is coming along. Saw a lot of two hands on the ball from him.

VonDoom
12-01-2013, 08:10 PM
Strange that Moreno couldn't get it going on the ground but Ball was unstoppable. I'm so happy to see him finally break out like that.

AlWilsonizKING
12-01-2013, 08:28 PM
Strange that Moreno couldn't get it going on the ground but Ball was unstoppable.


I'll take ankle injuries for $1000 Alex......


PEACE!!!

Army Bronco
12-01-2013, 08:31 PM
Strange that Moreno couldn't get it going on the ground but Ball was unstoppable.


I'll take ankle injuries for $1000 Alex......


PEACE!!! He got tackled in the backfield too much. I thought the KC Def expected Moreno to run and not M. Ball.

tomjonesrocks
12-01-2013, 08:33 PM
I've been hard on him because Lacy has been a stud.

Today was an encouraging step in the right direction.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
12-01-2013, 08:35 PM
Moreno was still a beast in the passing game today; running the ball, not so much.

I'm happy to see Ball answer the bell and step up his game today. He had that huge run when we were backed up and then he iced the game with a first down run at the end.

Most importantly though, he held on to the football!!!

SR
12-01-2013, 08:45 PM
I really just want to see what Joel has to say

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
12-01-2013, 08:49 PM
I really just want to see what Joel has to say

He's probably still writing out a 20 page response.

MOtorboat
12-01-2013, 09:06 PM
I really just want to see what Joel has to say

There's nothing to be giddy about. Denver won.

BroncoJoe
12-01-2013, 09:09 PM
Ball was money today. Awesome to finally see him produce!

OrangeHoof
12-02-2013, 12:02 AM
Funny. Ball scored twice two weeks ago against KC but he only "produced" today. Got it.

topscribe
12-02-2013, 12:10 AM
Strange that Moreno couldn't get it going on the ground but Ball was unstoppable. I'm so happy to see him finally break out like that.
To be fair, the Chiefs came out obviously determined to stop Denver's running
game. Ball got a lot of his carries after Peyton loosened them up.
.

Captain Speardog
12-02-2013, 12:57 AM
I am going to pick him up on FA and probably start both him and Moreno next week.

Captain Speardog
12-02-2013, 12:58 AM
To be fair, the Chiefs came out obviously determined to stop Denver's running
game. Ball got a lot of his carries after Peyton loosened them up.
.


Moreno was running during these times as well and was not getting any yards. I think Ball is much quicker. He probably has fresher legs as well.

Joel
12-02-2013, 01:31 AM
He got tackled in the backfield too much. I thought the KC Def expected Moreno to run and not M. Ball.
You may be onto something, though our line let Moreno get hit in the backfield his whole career till this September (I still say that's why he danced so much and got the reputation for "fragility" shared with McGahee, though McGahee had injury issues in Baltimore.) Maybe he expects it now; Ball lacks that negative experience. The bone bruise surely didn't help though, no.


I really just want to see what Joel has to say
Said it in the Gameday Thread, but can repeat: I stand by my original comment that I want SOMEONE to step up and show Moreno's not our only legit back; don't care WHO. Someone MUST be that guy; that's why Ball got promoted after Hillmans fumbles and Anderson got playing time after Balls. Ball crushed it today (his average was a jaw-dropping 9 yds) and didn't turn it over, so I got what I wanted and you got what you wanted. The two aren't mutually exclusive (really.) If he keeps it up, we've got our one-two punch; just don't put it on the ground next week.

Broncolingus
12-02-2013, 05:50 AM
Ball was 'due' methinks...

...personally, I'm A-Okay with him getting hot as Denver starts the playoff push here...

SR
12-02-2013, 07:49 AM
You may be onto something, though our line let Moreno get hit in the backfield his whole career till this September (I still say that's why he danced so much and got the reputation for "fragility" shared with McGahee, though McGahee had injury issues in Baltimore.) Maybe he expects it now; Ball lacks that negative experience. The bone bruise surely didn't help though, no. Said it in the Gameday Thread, but can repeat: I stand by my original comment that I want SOMEONE to step up and show Moreno's not our only legit back; don't care WHO. Someone MUST be that guy; that's why Ball got promoted after Hillmans fumbles and Anderson got playing time after Balls. Ball crushed it today (his average was a jaw-dropping 9 yds) and didn't turn it over, so I got what I wanted and you got what you wanted. The two aren't mutually exclusive (really.) If he keeps it up, we've got our one-two punch; just don't put it on the ground next week.

You must be a great dancer

gregbroncs
12-02-2013, 08:14 AM
Strange that Moreno couldn't get it going on the ground but Ball was unstoppable. I'm so happy to see him finally break out like that.

Moreno went back to just charging into the backs of his blockers again last night. Sometimes Moreno looks pretty good and other's you wonder if he even looks where he is going or just plows forward regardless of whether there is a hole there or not.

Dapper Dan
12-02-2013, 09:54 AM
First game, Ball had 2 TDs. This game he had over 100 yards. This is probably the best defense in the NFL. Lacy just had 10 carries for 16 yards against Detroit. :lol:

SR
12-02-2013, 10:58 AM
Moreno went back to just charging into the backs of his blockers again last night. Sometimes Moreno looks pretty good and other's you wonder if he even looks where he is going or just plows forward regardless of whether there is a hole there or not.

Not Moreno's fault the offensive line didn't open holes for him.

MOtorboat
12-02-2013, 11:03 AM
First game, Ball had 2 TDs. This game he had over 100 yards. This is probably the best defense in the NFL. Lacy just had 10 carries for 16 yards against Detroit. :lol:

I disagree. Chiefs defense is a bunch of paper tigers. OK, so they aren't THAT bad...but they aren't the No. 1, best ever since the Ravens defense that they were billed to be.

That said, Ball had an awesome day. Ran hard and had two big runs to complement that.

Pudge
12-02-2013, 11:10 AM
I just learned that compliment and complement have different uses. That kind of makes me feel stupid

LuisPastrana4
12-02-2013, 11:32 AM
Moreno went back to just charging into the backs of his blockers again last night. Sometimes Moreno looks pretty good and other's you wonder if he even looks where he is going or just plows forward regardless of whether there is a hole there or not.

Not Moreno's fault the offensive line didn't open holes for him.

I was at the game and you're right! Both backs ran into heavy traffic, Ball was just able to bounce out a few times. Moreno did a great job in the passing game (blocking/receiving), especially on his slant catch

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-02-2013, 12:11 PM
Moreno still looks a little gimpy to me. I think they probably should have given more of the work load to Ball.

Dapper Dan
12-02-2013, 12:17 PM
I disagree. Chiefs defense is a bunch of paper tigers. OK, so they aren't THAT bad...but they aren't the No. 1, best ever since the Ravens defense that they were billed to be.

That said, Ball had an awesome day. Ran hard and had two big runs to complement that.

I don't think they're the best, but yes, they are on paper. They're still better than Detroit, IMO.

KC does a good job of using Berry the way he was used in college.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
12-02-2013, 12:44 PM
I don't think they're the best, but yes, they are on paper. They're still better than Detroit, IMO.

KC does a good job of using Berry the way he was used in college.

It looked like Berry was playing LB most of the game. Our Oline could not block him when he blitzed. In hindsight though, they could have used him more over the top with all the deep balls we were killing them with.

Can't believe he is scared of horses though. What a *****!!

OrangeHoof
12-02-2013, 12:53 PM
Moreno has been great this season but all that grinding takes a toll. I'm happy to have a fresh backup, plus Ball *ought* to be comfortable playing in the cold having played at Wisconsin.

jhildebrand
12-02-2013, 12:55 PM
Anyone who wants to criticise Moreno's play yesterday wasn't paying attention. Screen passes, huge runs when needed, blocking, all on a BONE BRUISE was beastly. He had one gaffe where he missed his block but still managed to get Manning to shovel pass and picked up positive yards.

If you want to criticise Moreno, criticise those freaky lids and 1 litre drainage.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-02-2013, 01:04 PM
Anyone who wants to criticise Moreno's play yesterday wasn't paying attention. Screen passes, huge runs when needed, blocking, all on a BONE BRUISE was beastly. He had one gaffe where he missed his block but still managed to get Manning to shovel pass and picked up positive yards.

If you want to criticise Moreno, criticise those freaky lids and 1 litre drainage.

He might have had a rough game between the tackles, but he did have close to seventy yards receiving on 3 receptions. He still had a good day at the office, gimpy ankle and all.

MOtorboat
12-02-2013, 01:09 PM
I don't think they're the best, but yes, they are on paper. They're still better than Detroit, IMO.

KC does a good job of using Berry the way he was used in college.


It looked like Berry was playing LB most of the game. Our Oline could not block him when he blitzed. In hindsight though, they could have used him more over the top with all the deep balls we were killing them with.

Can't believe he is scared of horses though. What a *****!!

Kansas City was playing a 4-1-6 with three safeties. Berry was in the box and Quentin Demps and Kendrick Lewis were in two-high.

BroncoNut
12-02-2013, 01:25 PM
I really just want to see what Joel has to say

why? I've been under the impression that you don't think too much of Joel's posts. Are you trying to get some type of response, are you gloating??? Isn't that trolling?

Dapper Dan
12-02-2013, 01:28 PM
why? I've been under the impression that you don't think too much of Joel's posts. Are you trying to get some type of response, are you gloating??? Isn't that trolling?

Uh oh. :ban:

topscribe
12-02-2013, 01:38 PM
Moreno was running during these times as well and was not getting any yards. I think Ball is much quicker. He probably has fresher legs as well.
True, upon a second view of the game, courtesy of NFL Rewind, they both ran
much at the same time. But, as others here have pointed out, Moreno was
playing on a gimpy ankle. The camera trained on his ankle at one point, and I
thought they were showing Peyton's ankles. So Ball had better have been
quicker, or something would have been wrong with Ball.

And KC was geared up initially to stop the run before Peyton started to
scorch them with his passing. There just were no holes in the first quarter.
.

Dapper Dan
12-02-2013, 01:41 PM
When Moreno got zero or negative yards, it rarely mattered. I'm not sure about every single play, but this is the way it seemed from memory.

SR
12-02-2013, 01:54 PM
If you want to criticise Moreno, criticise those freaky lids and 1 litre drainage.
I got a good laugh from that. My buddy and I were JUST talking about how much water came out of his eyes.

SR
12-02-2013, 01:56 PM
why? I've been under the impression that you don't think too much of Joel's posts. Are you trying to get some type of response, are you gloating??? Isn't that trolling?

In a thread yesterday I suggested the Broncos give the ball to Ball more to let him get some carries and regain his confidence. His reply was that it was preposterous to tinker with the offense like that because Ball can't produce RIGHT NOW, or something to that effect. So, I just wanted to hear what he had to say in regards to the Broncos giving Ball the football more yesterday and having a heck of a day.

SR
12-02-2013, 01:58 PM
True, upon a second view of the game, courtesy of NFL Rewind, they both ran
much at the same time. But, as others here have pointed out, Moreno was
playing on a gimpy ankle. The camera trained on his ankle at one point, and I
thought they were showing Peyton's ankles. So Ball had better have been
quicker, or something would have been wrong with Ball.

And KC was geared up initially to stop the run before Peyton started to
scorch them with his passing. There just were no holes in the first quarter.
.

They were showing Peyton's ankles...they corrected themselves.

jhildebrand
12-02-2013, 01:59 PM
I expect Ball to get an increased workload these next 4 games. It will help Moreno heal and rest and give Ball the experience he needs. Come playoff time having two proficient RB's that are fresh and dangerous will go a long way.

BroncoNut
12-02-2013, 02:01 PM
I expect Ball to get an increased workload these next 4 games. It will help Moreno heal and rest and give Ball the experience he needs. Come playoff time having two proficient RB's that are fresh and dangerous will go a long way.

what happened to Moreno?

jhildebrand
12-02-2013, 02:23 PM
what happened to Moreno?

The Bone bruise. You can tell he was still hobbled by it. It was affecting him. Chances are he received a shot before the game. If we can still notice it with the shot, then chances are he is playing through an immense amount of pain. Even without the injury I would still think the Broncos would work Ball more in these 4 as Moreno was run like crazy in the last 4. The team will be immensely better if they have 2 RB's they trust completely.

BroncoNut
12-02-2013, 02:28 PM
The Bone bruise. You can tell he was still hobbled by it. It was affecting him. Chances are he received a shot before the game. If we can still notice it with the shot, then chances are he is playing through an immense amount of pain. Even without the injury I would still think the Broncos would work Ball more in these 4 as Moreno was run like crazy in the last 4. The team will be immensely better if they have 2 RB's they trust completely.

oh that's right. damn, it's amazing how quickly I forget things. that sounds immensely painful, but can't say I've ever heard of such a thing, not that it doesn't exist of course. I was bummed that Wolfe was inactive, hope that turns out to be nothing too serious. but we seem to be deep. it would definilty be nice to have some healthy backs goint into the post season, without a doubt. hope montee can carry the load for the next few weeks.

weazel
12-02-2013, 02:52 PM
Strange that Moreno couldn't get it going on the ground but Ball was unstoppable. I'm so happy to see him finally break out like that.

Moreno couldnt get it going? He crawled for a first down! :lol:

topscribe
12-02-2013, 02:55 PM
They were showing Peyton's ankles...they corrected themselves.
Oh, LOL!! So that's why I thought they were showing Peyton's ankles!

Moreno's ankle did have a lot of tape, though. I noticed that in a still of him as
he crossed the goal line over the defender.



Moreno couldnt get it going? He crawled for a first down! http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smilies/lol.gif
lol - actually, he already had the first down and the play was over when he crawled.

What he did do was simply carry half of the defensive team on his back for a few yards.
.

Ziggy
12-02-2013, 03:03 PM
How many times were the Chiefs in the Broncos backfield as the ball was being handed off? Beadles was beat like a drum all day long. Both backs did a good job fighting for every yard. Moreno was playing hurt and didn't look near 100%. Ball stepped up when he needed to. That was his best day by a long shot, when the Broncos needed it most.

BroncoNut
12-02-2013, 03:12 PM
How many times were the Chiefs in the Broncos backfield as the ball was being handed off? Beadles was beat like a drum all day long. Both backs did a good job fighting for every yard. Moreno was playing hurt and didn't look near 100%. Ball stepped up when he needed to. That was his best day by a long shot, when the Broncos needed it most.

did happen a lot I noticed. can't let those savages in like that. hell, they'll skin you alive

NightTerror218
12-02-2013, 07:06 PM
I think now that we are through rhe rough patch of schedule back ups will get more tine to let banged up starters heal some. Ball should get more carries next week. The moreno can be more healed for chargers game. I think we have seen we have 2 solid backs now.

Joel
12-02-2013, 07:45 PM
In a thread yesterday I suggested the Broncos give the ball to Ball more to let him get some carries and regain his confidence. His reply was that it was preposterous to tinker with the offense like that because Ball can't produce RIGHT NOW, or something to that effect. So, I just wanted to hear what he had to say in regards to the Broncos giving Ball the football more yesterday and having a heck of a day.
Actually, my initial response was that his fumbles scared the crap out of me but we might have no choice since he's more productive than Hillman (who also fumbles) and SOMEONE had to step up in relief of Moreno. I also said I didn't care WHO stepped up as long as SOMEONE did; if that someone was Ball, great.

The problems started when someone insisted "this game decides nothing" and Balls long term development was more important than finding someone to help Moreno carry the load and THIS season. That is, I rejected the implication we use a December road game against a co-division leader like a preseason game to workout a rookie so he'll EVENTUALLY be good. Manning and Champ don't have 2-3 years to wait for a rookie to mature, and this was our biggest game since—the LAST time we played KC.

We both got what we wanted, so a "told ya so" is even more inappropriate than usual. We're both Broncos fans so there's not (or shouldn't be) any competition between us. There's a reason (several, in fact) I don't call out other postersby name (heaven knows there are ample chances.) For example, even though ONE 100 yd fumble-free game doesn't answer and erase all questions about Ball because he needs to duplicate that the rest of the year, if (heaven forbid) he fumbles repeatedly next week I won't come after you by name.

SR
12-02-2013, 07:49 PM
I never said Ball's long term development was more important than anything. I DID say that it was possible to have a "win now" mentality without sacrificing the long term development of our future stars.

Joel
12-02-2013, 07:55 PM
How many times were the Chiefs in the Broncos backfield as the ball was being handed off? Beadles was beat like a drum all day long. Both backs did a good job fighting for every yard. Moreno was playing hurt and didn't look near 100%. Ball stepped up when he needed to. That was his best day by a long shot, when the Broncos needed it most.
What REALLY pisses me off is you could substitute "McGahee" for "Moreno" and "Moreno" for "Ball" and this would be applicable to ANY game we've played in the last THREE YEARS. Then people complain about Moreno not running north/south and say he and McGahee have "a glass vadge." They can't phase through matter, but that only makes them human.

It was (much) better this September (Moreno averaged >5 yds/carry) and it looked like Vasquez combined with Beadles and Ramirez finding their way had made the difference. Now we're back to Moreno having to do what he did on his commando-crawl just to get 2 yds. Instead of a 2-3 yd line surge followed by Moreno fighting for 2-3 yds to get at least 4-5 out of every run, we're back to Moreno fighting for 2-3 yds just to get past (or even reach) the line of scrimmage.

It was better yesterday, if not consistently, and @NE, but NEs front four was in pieces before we arrived, and Moreno only averaged 1.2 yds/carry @KC. The ankle surely hurt, but he was all over the place as a receiver: Why not on the runs? Maybe because he was playing in space on the catches and playing in piles on the runs. We need to fix that ere the playoffs.

Joel
12-02-2013, 07:59 PM
I never said Ball's long term development was more important than anything. I DID say that it was possible to have a "win now" mentality without sacrificing the long term development of our future stars.
No argument here. My point was winning comes first, especially this year and particularly that game, so we needed whoever produced without fumbling. Ball's as welcome as anyone in my book.

Dzone
12-02-2013, 08:16 PM
Wonder if we will ever see Hillman again this season. Cant feel sorry for him though. He is being paid pretty good to hold tackling dummies in practice and run scout team

Dapper Dan
12-02-2013, 08:16 PM
Wonder if we will ever see Hillman again this season. Cant feel sorry for him though. He is being paid pretty good to hold tackling dummies in practice and run scout team

I think we won't see him unless there's an injury.

SR
12-02-2013, 08:17 PM
What REALLY pisses me off is you could substitute "McGahee" for "Moreno" and "Moreno" for "Ball" and this would be applicable to ANY game we've played in the last THREE YEARS. Then people complain about Moreno not running north/south and say he and McGahee have "a glass vadge." They can't phase through matter, but that only makes them human. It was (much) better this September (Moreno averaged >5 yds/carry) and it looked like Vasquez combined with Beadles and Ramirez finding their way had made the difference. Now we're back to Moreno having to do what he did on his commando-crawl just to get 2 yds. Instead of a 2-3 yd line surge followed by Moreno fighting for 2-3 yds to get at least 4-5 out of every run, we're back to Moreno fighting for 2-3 yds just to get past (or even reach) the line of scrimmage. It was better yesterday, if not consistently, and @NE, but NEs front four was in pieces before we arrived, and Moreno only averaged 1.2 yds/carry @KC. The ankle surely hurt, but he was all over the place as a receiver: Why not on the runs? Maybe because he was playing in space on the catches and playing in piles on the runs. We need to fix that ere the playoffs.

LOL...Moreno had over 230 yards last week and over 60 carries the last two weeks prior to yesterday, has over 800 yards rushing and 11 TDs on the year...he had a bad game yesterday and now to you it's "more of the same" from the past two years. Friggin hilarious perspective.

Joel
12-02-2013, 09:43 PM
LOL...Moreno had over 230 yards last week and over 60 carries the last two weeks prior to yesterday, has over 800 yards rushing and 11 TDs on the year...he had a bad game yesterday and now to you it's "more of the same" from the past two years. Friggin hilarious perspective.
You misunderstood: I mean we're letting him get pounded in the backfield like most of his career, so people are back to unfairly blaming him for his lines failings.

Did you actually READ the post that was NOTHING but complimentary to Moreno the whole time, or just scan it for a (bad) excuse to shout, "J'ACCUSE111"? "LOL, I'm'a pretend you said the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you repeatedly said clearly, just to show how much 'smarter' I am." I certainly HOPE you're better than that. :tsk:

Broncolingus
12-03-2013, 12:03 AM
I think we won't see him unless there's an injury.


I think so too...

...I think he's firmly entrenched as the overall #4.

I think (hope) based on yesterday, we'll start to see Ball work more into the offense...

...esp. if his pass blocking can improve.

Joel
12-03-2013, 12:34 AM
I saw an article a few weeks ago from right after the draft, talking about he was a huge Terrell Davis fan growing up and elated to meet and get advice from his idol after the draft. Davis was quoted telling him the best way to ensure he'd be a starter was to learn to block, practice it until he can do it in his sleep, so he's not pulled on passing downs. I think he'll get it; sure hope so.

SR
12-03-2013, 08:10 AM
You misunderstood: I mean we're letting him get pounded in the backfield like most of his career, so people are back to unfairly blaming him for his lines failings. Did you actually READ the post that was NOTHING but complimentary to Moreno the whole time, or just scan it for a (bad) excuse to shout, "J'ACCUSE111"? "LOL, I'm'a pretend you said the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you repeatedly said clearly, just to show how much 'smarter' I am." I certainly HOPE you're better than that. :tsk:

Funny, you do that to people's posts ALL THE TIME.

TXBRONC
12-03-2013, 09:32 AM
As I said in the Game Day thread it was a gutty performance by a beat up team. Moreno one of walking wounded and I wasn't surprised running the ball was difficult for him but still came up with some big plays running and receiving. Overall the offensive line did good job it's just couldn't move very well because he was hurt. Nevertheless it was gutty performance Moreno.

Ball behind the same offensive line ripped off two runs over twenty yards and several others that netted three or four yards a pop.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 11:27 AM
In a thread yesterday I suggested the Broncos give the ball to Ball more to let him get some carries and regain his confidence. His reply was that it was preposterous to tinker with the offense like that because Ball can't produce RIGHT NOW, or something to that effect. So, I just wanted to hear what he had to say in regards to the Broncos giving Ball the football more yesterday and having a heck of a day.

oh, so he commented on a post of yours with an opinion that didn't support it. I see.

what can we do today SR to make you feel better/more comfortable as a member here?

Buff
12-03-2013, 11:29 AM
I rewatched the game last night and was really impressed with Ball's YAC. Guy is stout. I'd underestimated his strength. Really excited about his potential.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 11:32 AM
good to hear Buff, thanks for your take. I think I'd get a lot out of rewatching games in that regard. I need to figure out how to record games. I had that opiotn with my DTV, but didn't take it. anyway, just made me think on that.

weazel
12-03-2013, 11:52 AM
lol - actually, he already had the first down and the play was over when he crawled.

What he did do was simply carry half of the defensive team on his back for a few yards.
.

don't ruin my joke with facts, top!

SR
12-03-2013, 12:00 PM
oh, so he commented on a post of yours with an opinion that didn't support it. I see.

what can we do today SR to make you feel better/more comfortable as a member here?

Thank you for your concern, but I don't feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Thank you for your concern, but I don't feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.

well, I find some of that difficult to believe, but so be it.

SR
12-03-2013, 02:18 PM
well, I find some of that difficult to believe, but so be it.

If I felt that way, I wouldn't post here. Considering how much I post here, I would say that is the case.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 02:25 PM
If I felt that way, I wouldn't post here. Considering how much I post here, I would say that is the case.

I think you have control issues. You should look into a product called Depends

Dapper Dan
12-03-2013, 02:28 PM
good to hear Buff, thanks for your take. I think I'd get a lot out of rewatching games in that regard. I need to figure out how to record games. I had that opiotn with my DTV, but didn't take it. anyway, just made me think on that.

I have NFL Rewind until June or July. I really have no problem with anyone using it.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 02:29 PM
I have NFL Rewind until June or July. I really have no problem with anyone using it.

NFL rewind huh? is that part of your package?

Joel
12-03-2013, 02:31 PM
Funny, you do that to people's posts ALL THE TIME.
Have any examples in mind, or is this just more wishful thinking?

Lancane
12-03-2013, 02:31 PM
I think Ball will get more carries the rest of the season for several reasons. Right now Moreno has 800 plus yards and will break 1,000 before seasons' end. However, Moreno has played enough this season to make him an UFA after the season when originally Denver had another year to contemplate how to proceed with Moreno and Moreno will be worth top dollar because he doesn't have the mileage that other free agent running backs will have or has shown to be more productive in various facets. The thing is, at least IMHO Ball is starting to show why the Broncos' wanted him and believed he was capable of being better then the rest of the backs on the roster, Moreno I think has vaulted himself into a situation where Denver will not be sure what to do...do they sign Moreno to a lucrative long-term deal though originally they had no inclination to do so or do they allow him to go and go forward with Ball, Hillman and whoever.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 02:36 PM
I think Ball will get more carries the rest of the season for several reasons. Right now Moreno has 800 plus yards and will break 1,000 before seasons' end. However, Moreno has played enough this season to make him an UFA after the season when originally Denver had another year to contemplate how to proceed with Moreno and Moreno will be worth top dollar because he doesn't have the mileage that other free agent running backs will have or has shown to be more productive in various facets. The thing is, at least IMHO Ball is starting to show why the Broncos' wanted him and believed he was capable of being better then the rest of the backs on the roster, Moreno I think has vaulted himself into a situation where Denver will not be sure what to do...do they sign Moreno to a lucrative long-term deal though originally they had no inclination to do so or do they allow him to go and go forward with Ball, Hillman and whoever.

in this scenario you try to keep Moreno. most oraganizaitions have come to rely on 2 hosses trading carries. I like what I see in Ball, but let's get a better idea of what he can do in Moresno's current situation

Buff
12-03-2013, 02:38 PM
I think Ball will get more carries the rest of the season for several reasons. Right now Moreno has 800 plus yards and will break 1,000 before seasons' end. However, Moreno has played enough this season to make him an UFA after the season when originally Denver had another year to contemplate how to proceed with Moreno and Moreno will be worth top dollar because he doesn't have the mileage that other free agent running backs will have or has shown to be more productive in various facets. The thing is, at least IMHO Ball is starting to show why the Broncos' wanted him and believed he was capable of being better then the rest of the backs on the roster, Moreno I think has vaulted himself into a situation where Denver will not be sure what to do...do they sign Moreno to a lucrative long-term deal though originally they had no inclination to do so or do they allow him to go and go forward with Ball, Hillman and whoever.

I think Denver has a club option for 2014... So we have his rights for one more year before he is a UFA, unless I am mistaken.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 02:43 PM
UFA = undrafted free agent, am I correct? I thought that applied only to potential rookies, if you get my drift.

or does it mean unsigned free agent, and if so, isn't that redundant?

Buff
12-03-2013, 02:44 PM
UFA = undrafted free agent, am I correct? I thought that applied only to potential rookies, if you get my drift.

or does it mean unsigned free agent, and if so, isn't that redundant?

It means undrafted free agent or unrestricted free agent depending on what context it's being used in. In this case, it's the latter. If a player is a restricted free agent then his team has a right to match any offer from another team. If they are unrestricted, then the player can sign with anyone.

Lancane
12-03-2013, 02:46 PM
UFA = undrafted free agent, am I correct? I thought that applied only to potential rookies, if you get my drift.

or does it mean unsigned free agent, and if so, isn't that redundant?

UDFA is undrafted free agent, UFA is unrestricted free agent which basically means that the player in question is allowed to sign anywhere for any amount of money he chooses unless they receive the franchise tag, RFA are free agents who are restricted for various reasons, either it's in their contract or they don't have the playing time on their team to be unrestricted and their team can place a draft pick price on a RFA where they feel they are valued.

BroncoNut
12-03-2013, 02:46 PM
It means undrafted free agent or unrestricted free agent depending on what context it's being used in. In this case, it's the latter. If a player is a restricted free agent then his team has a right to match any offer from another team. If they are unrestricted, then the player can sign with anyone.

thanks, seemed like I knew that at one time. what constitutes unrestricted or restricted? does that depend on how the contract is drawn up?

Buff
12-03-2013, 02:49 PM
thanks, seemed like I knew that at one time. what constitutes unrestricted or restricted? does that depend on how the contract is drawn up?

It's determined by the collective bargaining agreement - so the players union and the owners decide. I don't know the exact stipulations - but I think it's usually determined by number of years in the league and a player is usually eligible to become a UFA after year 4 or 5 (I think). Or if they are cut by a team and pass through waivers unclaimed by any other teams, then they become a UFA.

Lancane
12-03-2013, 02:51 PM
Or playing time on the team they have a contract with. For example, Harris right now is scheduled to be a RFA come the end of the season, but should he start the remaining contests at as Buff eluded to that it makes up that amount of time then he could have enough playing time to become an unrestricted free agent - though Harris isn't close enough yet, unless there is a particular clause in his contract. Most times RFA are unproven journeyman players or formally signed undrafted free agents, like Harris and Carter.

Dapper Dan
12-03-2013, 03:06 PM
I have NFL Rewind until June or July. I really have no problem with anyone using it.

No. It's on nfl.com . I paid $70 and I've used it once. I plan on rewatching the KC game to see if I was on TV.

tomjonesrocks
12-03-2013, 03:27 PM
Wonder if we will ever see Hillman again this season. Cant feel sorry for him though. He is being paid pretty good to hold tackling dummies in practice and run scout team

Ball's fumble that got him in the doghouse was as bad or worse, so if Hillman is still inactive due to that it seems hypocritical at this point.

OTOH, this team has 16 lost fumbles, far and away leading the league, so I guess you punish the least useful overall guy.

jhildebrand
12-03-2013, 03:43 PM
Ball's fumble that got him in the doghouse was as bad or worse, so if Hillman is still inactive due to that it seems hypocritical at this point.

OTOH, this team has 16 lost fumbles, far and away leading the league, so I guess you punish the least useful overall guy.

OTOH Hillman was the starter going into camp and had a year under his belt that Ball didn't. More is, and should be, expected from vets. Also, Hillman's fumbles seem to be the result of his refusing to even attempt carrying the ball right. He always seems to run with the ball way outside of his body. You can get away with that in college but not the NFL.

As for Ball, once he starts to get a little bit lower (he runs a bit upright) especially between the tackles, the dude is going to be dangerous.

SR
12-03-2013, 05:29 PM
UFA = undrafted free agent, am I correct? I thought that applied only to potential rookies, if you get my drift.

or does it mean unsigned free agent, and if so, isn't that redundant?

UDFA is undrafted free agent. UFA is unrestricted free agent. RFA is restricted free agent.

SR
12-03-2013, 05:29 PM
UDFA is undrafted free agent, UFA is unrestricted free agent which basically means that the player in question is allowed to sign anywhere for any amount of money he chooses unless they receive the franchise tag, RFA are free agents who are restricted for various reasons, either it's in their contract or they don't have the playing time on their team to be unrestricted and their team can place a draft pick price on a RFA where they feel they are valued.

I need to finish reading the thread before I reply. Thanks!

Joel
12-03-2013, 05:54 PM
I think Denver has a club option for 2014... So we have his rights for one more year before he is a UFA, unless I am mistaken.
That matches what Rotoworld says. The whole problem the last few years has been that our one-two punch lacked a two when our starting back was hurt/tired. Moreno finally found his stride, but only after McGahee started fumbling and then got hurt last year so we shipped him to Cleveland and drafted Ball. Even if he NEVER starts we needed Ball or someone to step up and produce in relief of Moreno; now that he's done that (and only for one game so far) why would we let Moreno go and revert to having just one legit back?

Beside which, ever since Moreno got the start last year he's played his guts out every down for a front office and fanbase that's crapped on him almost from the moment we drafted him. I guarantee Ball doesn't pick up blitzes as well. If we let Moreno go after how he's played since this time last year we deserve to him pound us in the playoffs. Pay the man: He's earned it.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2013, 06:01 PM
I never believe in paying top dollar for a mid back. Draft another. We've seen all throughout the NFL that teams can survive on 6th round or UDFA RBs as long as you have a good passing attack. We have a 2nd round pick RB in Ball. We have Moreno for another year, which means all through 2014, and in 2015 he turns 28. NOT a time to give a RB a second contract.

Joel
12-03-2013, 06:07 PM
Well, we've got a year left on an option we'll almost certainly exercise, so let's just see what he and Ball each do through 2014. There's no reason to make a decision with both under contract.

tomjonesrocks
12-03-2013, 11:03 PM
I never believe in paying top dollar for a mid back. Draft another. We've seen all throughout the NFL that teams can survive on 6th round or UDFA RBs as long as you have a good passing attack. We have a 2nd round pick RB in Ball. We have Moreno for another year, which means all through 2014, and in 2015 he turns 28. NOT a time to give a RB a second contract.

If these are really the terms of his contract it's really hard to imagine keeping him with the guys coming up that need money. That's a long way away, though.

Captain Speardog
12-04-2013, 02:25 AM
I expect Ball to get an increased workload these next 4 games. It will help Moreno heal and rest and give Ball the experience he needs. Come playoff time having two proficient RB's that are fresh and dangerous will go a long way.

I would love to see Anderson get some carries as well. It would be nice if Denver jumped out against the Titans, Moreno sat on the bench and Ball and Anderson carry the load for the game. I would like Moreno's workload to be dramatically cut these final four games and make sure he is healthy and rested for the playoffs.

Captain Speardog
12-05-2013, 01:24 AM
How many times were the Chiefs in the Broncos backfield as the ball was being handed off? Beadles was beat like a drum all day long. Both backs did a good job fighting for every yard. Moreno was playing hurt and didn't look near 100%. Ball stepped up when he needed to. That was his best day by a long shot, when the Broncos needed it most.

Ball averaged 9 yards per carry. Moreno averaged 1 yard per carry. Are you saying the line blocked better for Ball than Moreno? I think Moreno was hurt more than we were let on. Manning wanted him out there because he feels safer with Moreno. The fact is Ball and CJ Anderson probably should have gotten the majority of the carries cause Moreno was slow and not agile. He got blew up a few times but he also did not make anyone miss.

underrated29
12-05-2013, 01:32 AM
Anderson wasn't active against the chefs. Hillman was.

Dzone
12-05-2013, 02:57 AM
Ya, I had heard Hillman was active for the Chiefs game. Wonder if we will see more Hillman in these last 4 games.

Captain Speardog
12-05-2013, 06:27 AM
Anderson wasn't active against the chefs. Hillman was.

Wow, surprising he didn't even get one carry.

TXBRONC
12-05-2013, 07:42 AM
How many times were the Chiefs in the Broncos backfield as the ball was being handed off? Beadles was beat like a drum all day long. Both backs did a good job fighting for every yard. Moreno was playing hurt and didn't look near 100%. Ball stepped up when he needed to. That was his best day by a long shot, when the Broncos needed it most.

I don't remember them being in the backfield all day long. As you mention Moreno was hurt so that accounts for struggles running the ball. I don't think Ball has a big of a day if the Chiefs are sitting the backfield the entire game.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-05-2013, 10:32 AM
I don't remember them being in the backfield all day long. As you mention Moreno was hurt so that accounts for struggles running the ball. I don't think Ball has a big of a day if the Chiefs are sitting the backfield the entire game.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Ball looked fresher, but I thought KC was more prepared to stop the run when Moreno was in.

SR
12-05-2013, 10:39 AM
Wow, surprising he didn't even get one carry.

I don't think it's surprising at all. He's not a good running back.

TXBRONC
12-05-2013, 11:17 AM
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Ball looked fresher, but I thought KC was more prepared to stop the run when Moreno was in.

Fair enough. However, Moreno being in the game didn't mean Denver was going to run ball. I agree Montee is much fresher because he doesn't have nearly as many carries nor was he hobbled by injury. I don't less prepared for Montee to run the ball than they would if Moreno is game.

Joel
12-05-2013, 08:04 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt

Note: I refer primarily to rushing AVERAGES rather than TOTALS below because totals are a function of attempts, which are a function of victory margins, so running BADLY but OFTEN still yields huge totals. The NFL season rushing average has consistently remained right at 4.2 yds/carry since at least the mid-nineties; whatever the total, any team averaging less underperforms.


I don't remember them being in the backfield all day long.
I remember it all too vividly, and am getting sick of seeing it week after week ever since Shanny left. It was a lot better in September (against the 4 best run Ds we've faced this year, which just goes to show how BAD it is now,) but now it's the same old -3 yds and a cloud of dust. Sunday was better (though against a bottom 10 run D) but still not great; they opened some nice holes more than once, but just as often let guys mob Moreno or Ball behind the LoS.


As you mention Moreno was hurt so that accounts for struggles running the ball. I don't think Ball has a big of a day if the Chiefs are sitting the backfield the entire game.http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt/position/defense
Ball had two huge runs for almost 80 yds; otherwise he had 44 yds on 11 carries, an average of exactly 4. That's OK, but below both the NFL and KC average this year. The run blocking was good enough, but good enough against the teams with the 6th worst (NE) and 5th worst (KC) defensive rushing average WON'T be good enough in the playoffs against, say, the team with the 11th BEST defensive rushing average (Cincy.) We're fortunate none of the likely AFC playoff teams are ranked higher (although NY IS #1,) but 3 NFC contenders are in the top ten.

Maybe this weeks game will be the best bellwether; not only will the cold encourage running, but Tennessees D is ranked 17th in total and 14th in average rushing yards; Seattles is ranked 13th and 15th. We might even have a "bellwether for the bellwether:" Washingtons D is 14th in total and 13th in average rushing yds; they allowed us 107 yds on 34 carries (3.1) in our rout.

Joel
12-05-2013, 08:12 PM
Fair enough. However, Moreno being in the game didn't mean Denver was going to run ball. I agree Montee is much fresher because he doesn't have nearly as many carries nor was he hobbled by injury. I don't less prepared for Montee to run the ball than they would if Moreno is game.
If anything, Balls presence signalled we were MORE likely to run, since Moreno's by far our best pass blocker, something with which both Ball and Hillman have struggled. That's why I hate "third down backs" who don't play FIRST down because they lack moves and breakaway speed, and shifty burners who can't block/catch/move the pile on third down/short yardage plays.

tripp
12-05-2013, 10:32 PM
The best part of all this is the fact that Moreno is taking the mentor approach and he's clapping every time Montee Ball has a big run. Moreno has taken a great approach to the signing of Montee Ball, and I think both guys will benefit from this. I hope this is a 2 headed dragon similar to Foster and Tate for the upcoming years.

SR
12-05-2013, 11:29 PM
If anything, Balls presence signalled we were MORE likely to run, since Moreno's by far our best pass blocker, something with which both Ball and Hillman have struggled. That's why I hate "third down backs" who don't play FIRST down because they lack moves and breakaway speed, and shifty burners who can't block/catch/move the pile on third down/short yardage plays.

I don't think that at all considering the two games prior Moreno had over 60 carries.

Captain Speardog
12-05-2013, 11:50 PM
I don't think it's surprising at all. He's not a good running back.

Well then they should keep Anderson active. I wanna see what he has.

Captain Speardog
12-05-2013, 11:52 PM
If anything, Balls presence signalled we were MORE likely to run, since Moreno's by far our best pass blocker, something with which both Ball and Hillman have struggled. That's why I hate "third down backs" who don't play FIRST down because they lack moves and breakaway speed, and shifty burners who can't block/catch/move the pile on third down/short yardage plays.

Ball was very good blocking against the Chiefs. Maybe he has turned the corner. Ball did block for Russell Wilson so he was not totally foreign to it when he came to Denver.

Dapper Dan
12-05-2013, 11:53 PM
Ball was very good blocking against the Chiefs. Maybe he has turned the corner. Ball did block for Russell Wilson so he was not totally foreign to it when he came to Denver.

Yeah, but defenders can see Manning, unlike Wilson. :lol:

SR
12-06-2013, 12:01 AM
Well then they should keep Anderson active. I wanna see what he has.

Why are so many people hung up on Anderson?!?!?

Captain Speardog
12-06-2013, 12:02 AM
Yeah, but defenders can see Manning, unlike Wilson. :lol:

So true, I bet the WRs for Seattle all they see is a ball flying out of the middle of the pocket!

Dapper Dan
12-06-2013, 12:04 AM
Why are so many people hung up on Anderson?!?!?

Cinderella, man.

Captain Speardog
12-06-2013, 12:16 AM
Why are so many people hung up on Anderson?!?!?

Hung up, well, I would not say I am hung up; Denver activated him and he never got to play. I would have liked to see him get some carries. He is built like a stud RB. Much more so than Ball, Moreno and Hillman. He is 5'9" 225 lbs. He is the big back everyone in the draft said Denver was looking for. In his one preseason game against the 49ers he got 60+yards and over 5 yards per carry. Why shouldn't Denver see what he can do if they have him on the active roster?

Joel
12-06-2013, 12:40 AM
I don't think that at all considering the two games prior Moreno had over 60 carries.
Right, but Moreno does a lot of other things, too, like bltiz pickups, screens and checkdowns (e.g. the big catch he had in the first half against KC last week, or the second half catch that finished with his crawl.) That's the beauty of a back who can play literally any role on passing downs as well as run: His mere presence on the field doesn't tip our hand and let the D sell out on running if he's useless in the passing game or passing if he's useless in the running game.

Hence Terrell Davis' advice to Ball to learn how to block so he can stay on the field. If the coaches didn't prefer Ball and Hillmans legs as much as most fans they wouldn't have started the season ahead of Moreno on the depth chart, but they aren't going to get Manning drilled just so the rookie can rush for 100 yds every game. Ball's improved as a receiver and is dangerous in space (hence his 31 yd reception on 3rd and 20 to preserve our only purely offensive TD drive in the first half @NE.) Yet Moreno will start as long as PFM feels safer with him against the blitz.

Dapper Dan
12-06-2013, 12:43 AM
Uhm. I like Ball and Moreno, both.

SR
12-06-2013, 09:47 AM
Hung up, well, I would not say I am hung up; Denver activated him and he never got to play. I would have liked to see him get some carries. He is built like a stud RB. Much more so than Ball, Moreno and Hillman. He is 5'9" 225 lbs. He is the big back everyone in the draft said Denver was looking for. In his one preseason game against the 49ers he got 60+yards and over 5 yards per carry. Why shouldn't Denver see what he can do if they have him on the active roster?

Brock Osweiler has been on the active roster every game this season. Hell, why not throw him in too.

SR
12-06-2013, 09:48 AM
Right, but Moreno does a lot of other things, too, like bltiz pickups, screens and checkdowns (e.g. the big catch he had in the first half against KC last week, or the second half catch that finished with his crawl.) That's the beauty of a back who can play literally any role on passing downs as well as run: His mere presence on the field doesn't tip our hand and let the D sell out on running if he's useless in the passing game or passing if he's useless in the running game.

Hence Terrell Davis' advice to Ball to learn how to block so he can stay on the field. If the coaches didn't prefer Ball and Hillmans legs as much as most fans they wouldn't have started the season ahead of Moreno on the depth chart, but they aren't going to get Manning drilled just so the rookie can rush for 100 yds every game. Ball's improved as a receiver and is dangerous in space (hence his 31 yd reception on 3rd and 20 to preserve our only purely offensive TD drive in the first half @NE.) Yet Moreno will start as long as PFM feels safer with him against the blitz.

But, that's not what you said.

underrated29
12-06-2013, 11:21 AM
Why are so many people hung up on Anderson?!?!?




Probably cuz Hillman sucks.

TXBRONC
12-06-2013, 12:49 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt

Note: I refer primarily to rushing AVERAGES rather than TOTALS below because totals are a function of attempts, which are a function of victory margins, so running BADLY but OFTEN still yields huge totals. The NFL season rushing average has consistently remained right at 4.2 yds/carry since at least the mid-nineties; whatever the total, any team averaging less underperforms.


I remember it all too vividly, and am getting sick of seeing it week after week ever since Shanny left. It was a lot better in September (against the 4 best run Ds we've faced this year, which just goes to show how BAD it is now,) but now it's the same old -3 yds and a cloud of dust. Sunday was better (though against a bottom 10 run D) but still not great; they opened some nice holes more than once, but just as often let guys mob Moreno or Ball behind the LoS.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt/position/defense
Ball had two huge runs for almost 80 yds; otherwise he had 44 yds on 11 carries, an average of exactly 4. That's OK, but below both the NFL and KC average this year. The run blocking was good enough, but good enough against the teams with the 6th worst (NE) and 5th worst (KC) defensive rushing average WON'T be good enough in the playoffs against, say, the team with the 11th BEST defensive rushing average (Cincy.) We're fortunate none of the likely AFC playoff teams are ranked higher (although NY IS #1,) but 3 NFC contenders are in the top ten.

Maybe this weeks game will be the best bellwether; not only will the cold encourage running, but Tennessees D is ranked 17th in total and 14th in average rushing yards; Seattles is ranked 13th and 15th. We might even have a "bellwether for the bellwether:" Washingtons D is 14th in total and 13th in average rushing yds; they allowed us 107 yds on 34 carries (3.1) in our rout.

Ok you think you saw something vividly I am saying I didn't. When you can actually know what will happen in the playoffs before the game even takes place let know.

Joel
12-06-2013, 02:08 PM
But, that's not what you said.
It's what I strongly implied: If Ball can't pass block, the only reason he'll be out there is to 1) run or 2) CATCH a pass, and he ain't exactly our primary (nor even tertiary) receiver. I haven't watched him on every down he's played, but I believe he spend the vast majority of the time either running or sitting. We can and do run ANY play with Moreno on the field, so there's no tell like there is when Ball takes the field. If I'm a defensive coordinator and see Montee Ball take the field, I'm loading the box unless it's 3rd and 7+ (in which case I'll probably see Moreno.)

Thus Ball on the field makes it more rather than less likely we run, since Moreno preserves every option but Ball very few. That's why Moreno starts; as long as it's true he always will.


Ok you think you saw something vividly I am saying I didn't. When you can actually know what will happen in the playoffs before the game even takes place let know.
We can't be sure how the playoffs will go till we're there, but CAN make predictions from current data; the more such data we get, the more reliable the predictions. Right now we've got 12 games worth of data that says there's only been ONE GAME since September our running even matched the NFL average—even against BAD run Ds.

That's (one reason) why I'm looking to this weeks game for more definite conclusions: Not only will the sub-freezing temperature at home tell us a lot about how Manning will handle that in the playoffs, playing an above average D and specifically an above average RUN D will tell us a lot about how we'll run against good defenses in the playoffs. Plus it doesn't look like Derek Wolfe will play, so facing Jamaal Charles @Arrowhead followed by CJ2K will tell us whether we still hav a top run D even without Big Vick and Wolfe.