Peyton Manning is Being Unfairly Scrutinized For His Cold Weather Performance and We Can Prove It

[BSN Denver]

3835

From the moment Peyton Manning came to Denver, the critics have been saying that he can’t win in cold weather. That kind of talk certainly didn’t cease after the freak loss at New England on Sunday Night Football. That kind of conclusion is rational given that Peyton has had the luxury of playing in a dome most of his career and Denver weather isn’t comparable to that of a dome.

However, is any quarterback going to statistically play better in cold weather?

Sunday night’s contest against the Patriots was Manning’s 22nd cold weather game and in those 22 games Manning is 10-12. But four of those losses are to the Patriots, in New England – a place where they...................

CONTINUE READING (http://www.brandonspano.com/headlines.html?entry=criticizing-manning-in)

[Shazam!]

Even the best QBs will have iffy games in the elements.

Our own John Elway included.

[Northman]

*Sigh*

[WTE]

Sub 40 degree temps should not be the measuring stick for a cold weather game. For example, 38 degrees is not cold at all.

Let's break down Peyton's numbers in sub 32 degree temps - He's 3-7. His numbers get worse as the temps drop.

[atwater27]

We should just cut Peyton. I mean, why even try? Everybody knows he will wither into a little helpless forest creature as soon as he hits the field if our sorry team makes the playoffs. I mean, now that it is cold outside everywhere, everyone knows we will lose all of our remaining games. Patriots trolls said so after a 3 point win in overtime at home.

[SR]

I don't think he is being unfairly scrutinized at all. He turns in to Kyle Orton in the cold.

[atwater27]

Really? You are comparing Peyton to Kyle Orton. Man, get the **** out of here.

[embeeteeay]

We should just cut Peyton. I mean, why even try? Everybody knows he will wither into a little helpless forest creature as soon as he hits the field if our sorry team makes the playoffs. I mean, now that it is cold outside everywhere, everyone knows we will lose all of our remaining games. Patriots trolls said so after a 3 point win in overtime at home.

I don't think that is what anyone is saying, at all. Including many Denver fans who objectively look at the stats and results and see the possibility of a pattern here.

[SR]

Really? You are comparing Peyton to Kyle Orton. Man, get the **** out of here.

No comparison made. It was hyperbole. I was exaggerating to make a point.

[atwater27]

Oh noes! 40 year old QB's with multiple surgeries are not at the top of their game in the cold! It takes a team to win, and any Patriots fan with a brain knows deep down in their heart that Brady's stellar cold weather record had everything to do with the defense and the coaching. We lost by 3 in New England due to being outcoached by the best to ever wear a hoodie against our second string head coach. Fold up the tents, boys, and put a giant asterisk in Manning's hall of fame resume.

[embeeteeay]

I said this somewhere else but it's worth repeating.

A QB who has put up numbers close to 70% completion rate and is on track to break the all-time passing yardage and TD records over the first half+ of the season suddenly plays in the cold and windy confines of Gillette and turns in a 50-something completion % and 132 net yards passing is not being unfairly characterized for his performance in the cold and wind, especially given that said QB has a bit of a history of doing just that.

Now, if his opponent's QB has the same type of performance that day, playing under the same miserable conditions, it would be reasonable to assume that the weather alone was the deciding factor. Since that did not occur, it seems fair to lean towards the POV that your QB is more affected by the elements.

Tell me where I went wrong.

[Northman]

We shall see how it plays out but we know he wasnt brought here to just win regular season games. We could of done that with anyone. He's getting paid a lot of money to be a clutch player and yes, even in cold weather.

[atwater27]

Why did Brady have a field day? I don't know, could it have been that he was at home? And way better coached? the fact that we were without Champ, Moore and DRC? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler? Ask Brady how he did in the 1st half before our best corner got injured?

[Northman]

Why did Brady have a field day? I don't know, could it have been that he was at home? And way better coached? the fact that we were without Champ, Moore and DRC? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler? Ask Brady how he did in the 1st half before our best corner got injured?

Come on dude, the injury excuse is extremely weak. While BB is a great coach and obviously made some adjustments at halftime its not like Del Rio hasnt been through this before. Homefield in the NFL doesnt mean as much as it used too anyway.

[atwater27]

No, man, I have had enough of this Manning and the cold horseshit. All QB's struggle in the elements. Win loss records are deceptive as hell in these cases. Which teams have the better defense? Which teams have the better coaching? Which teams have the injuries in key matchups? Which Manning beat the Chiefs last week in the cold? Seriously, we have enough trolls and Patriot wankers piling on the Peyton hate train, the last thing we need is our own feeding the weak theories.

[atwater27]

And I am sure y'all would rather have Tebow or Orton. Then we would surely win in the cold. Weak ass shit.

[Northman]

And I am sure y'all would rather have Tebow or Orton. Then we would surely win in the cold. Weak ass shit.

No one said anything about wanting either one of those QB's. We know they are average at best.

[Northman]

No, man, I have had enough of this Manning and the cold horseshit. All QB's struggle in the elements. Win loss records are deceptive as hell in these cases. Which teams have the better defense? Which teams have the better coaching? Which teams have the injuries in key matchups? Which Manning beat the Chiefs last week in the cold? Seriously, we have enough trolls and Patriot wankers piling on the Peyton hate train, the last thing we need is our own feeding the weak theories.

Ive actually felt this way about Manning long before now, long before his neck surgeries etc. It was always a concern of mine when he first came here, i couldnt understand his logic of why he would choose here when he clearly struggles more than others in cold temperatures. While i think the Chiefs are vastly overrated this year i wouldnt call it a slam dunk to beat them this week. Especially if Manning puts up pedestrian numbers like he did vs the Pats. I think Peyton does have this monkey on his back and really until he can prove that he can win when it matters in colder weather im not sure he will escape the shadow of the criticism.

[SM19]

Tell me where I went wrong.

Well, for one thing, here:


especially given that said QB has a bit of a history of doing just that

Manning's typical drop in performance is cold weather is by less than one yard per attempt. He does not, historically, turn in a near-50% completion percentage and sub-150 net yards, or a 4.2 YPA, every time it gets cold, but so many people are acting like this is exactly what we should have expected from cold-weather Manning, and using his supposed "history" to justify it. In the real world, a game like this is a massive outlier for Manning, no matter what the weather is.

[SR]

Why did Brady have a field day? I don't know, could it have been that he was at home? And way better coached? the fact that we were without Champ, Moore and DRC? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler? Ask Brady how he did in the 1st half before our best corner got injured?

At this point in their career do you really think Brady or Manning require any real coaching? I don't. But hey, god forbid someone criticize Denver right.

[SR]

No, man, I have had enough of this Manning and the cold horseshit. All QB's struggle in the elements. Win loss records are deceptive as hell in these cases. Which teams have the better defense? Which teams have the better coaching? Which teams have the injuries in key matchups? Which Manning beat the Chiefs last week in the cold? Seriously, we have enough trolls and Patriot wankers piling on the Peyton hate train, the last thing we need is our own feeding the weak theories.

All QBs struggle in the elements? What were Brady's stats Sunday night? How about Flacco's last January?

[Simple Jaded]

Golic mentioned that Manning has the highest QBR in games that started under 40 degrees since 2001.

[SR]

Golic mentioned that Manning has the highest QBR in games that started under 40 degrees since 2001.

I dunno about all that

[Simple Jaded]

I dunno about all that

I don't either, mainly cause I'm too lazy to verify.

[BSN Denver]

Hey guys, we just noticed that we had a picture stuck in a large chunk of the text in that column. It has been removed. Patrick made some pretty awesome points, If you missed it, you can go back real quick and skim through that part. Thanks.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brandon

[BSN Denver]

Since I'm here, I'll jump into this for a sec.


All QBs struggle in the elements? What were Brady's stats Sunday night? How about Flacco's last January?

As the column says, Its unfair for you to compare Tom Brady's cold weather numbers against Manning's because the majority of Tom's cold weather games are at home and of Manning's 22 cold weather games, 21 of them were on the road. Should definitely give it a read. It mentions a lot of things like this

[atwater27]

At this point in their career do you really think Brady or Manning require any real coaching? I don't. But hey, god forbid someone criticize Denver right.

Not brady per se, his team was better coached.

[atwater27]

Bottom line is this.... You switch Brady and Manning's uniforms throughout their careers, Brady would be the one being scrutinized right now.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I said this somewhere else but it's worth repeating.

A QB who has put up numbers close to 70% completion rate and is on track to break the all-time passing yardage and TD records over the first half+ of the season suddenly plays in the cold and windy confines of Gillette and turns in a 50-something completion % and 132 net yards passing is not being unfairly characterized for his performance in the cold and wind, especially given that said QB has a bit of a history of doing just that.

Now, if his opponent's QB has the same type of performance that day, playing under the same miserable conditions, it would be reasonable to assume that the weather alone was the deciding factor. Since that did not occur, it seems fair to lean towards the POV that your QB is more affected by the elements.

Tell me where I went wrong.

The game plan was to run the ball a lot, to keep the pressure off of Peyton because of two BANGED UP ankles. Also, when passes are dropped, that certainly does not help a QB's passing percentage, yards passing, etc.

[SR]

Since I'm here, I'll jump into this for a sec. As the column says, Its unfair for you to compare Tom Brady's cold weather numbers against Manning's because the majority of Tom's cold weather games are at home and of Manning's 22 cold weather games, 21 of them were on the road. Should definitely give it a read. It mentions a lot of things like this

Fair point. But still a disturbing trend none the less. And still food for thought.

[embeeteeay]

All QBs struggle in the elements? What were Brady's stats Sunday night? How about Flacco's last January?

That sums it up very nicely. Why is this so difficult for some to see? And why do some think it is a slam on Peyton?

I'm not saying he CAN'T produce in cold and wind. I'm saying he has displayed a reduction in his production under those conditions. That's not difficult to document.

[atwater27]

That sums it up very nicely. Why is this so difficult for some to see? And why do some think it is a slam on Peyton?

I'm not saying he CAN'T produce in cold and wind. I'm saying he has displayed a reduction in his production under those conditions. That's not difficult to document.

You are not telling the whole story. Brandon Spano is.

[Poet]

Ive actually felt this way about Manning long before now, long before his neck surgeries etc. It was always a concern of mine when he first came here, i couldnt understand his logic of why he would choose here when he clearly struggles more than others in cold temperatures. While i think the Chiefs are vastly overrated this year i wouldnt call it a slam dunk to beat them this week. Especially if Manning puts up pedestrian numbers like he did vs the Pats. I think Peyton does have this monkey on his back and really until he can prove that he can win when it matters in colder weather im not sure he will escape the shadow of the criticism.

He came here for the abundance of talent. At the time of his decision, the Broncos had more talent than any other team that was pursuing him. It was the clear cut decision. I think Manning knows that he's not what he used to be. Can he carry a team to the playoffs? Yeah. Can he carry a team to the SB? Not anymore. He turned down a lot more money -over time - from the Titans to go to Denver. With all that being said... He struggles in cold weather. It's not a strong point. It's not unfair to point it out. He's clearly not the same guy in cold weather as he is elsewhere. WTE is splitting hairs with his temperature argument, which is pointing out. That game was more about the wind than the cold, and while Manning didn't put up a huge game, he wasn't largely responsible for the loss. It's also worth noting that were the two teams to play again in similar conditions, you're not going to see that many turnovers. The Brady Manning debate is under such scrutiny that we can't help but blow up everything out of proportion.

I'd like to touch on a few other points made in the thread. The Broncos were completely outcoached. Simply put, Del Rio was not a good head coach. It's not a surprise that he got schooled by maybe the best head coach ever. Brady was essentially worthless in the first half. It's not a shock when Brady comes out of halftime said adjustments that the Patriots turn it up.

It's adversity, boys, it happens. The Ravens got their teeth kicked in for a decent chunk of last season. Look at how the Giants won their first SB with Eli. Or the 05 Steelers team, for instance. Very few teams cakewalk to a SB victory. You had an ugly moment. So be it.

[SR]

You are not telling the whole story. Brandon Spano is.

Of course he is.

[SR]

King, thanks for putting that in to perspective.

[Northman]

Bottom line is this.... You switch Brady and Manning's uniforms throughout their careers, Brady would be the one being scrutinized right now.

I disagree, they are different QB's entirely.

[Northman]

He came here for the abundance of talent. At the time of his decision, the Broncos had more talent than any other team that was pursuing him. It was the clear cut decision. I think Manning knows that he's not what he used to be. Can he carry a team to the playoffs? Yeah. Can he carry a team to the SB? Not anymore. He turned down a lot more money -over time - from the Titans to go to Denver. With all that being said... He struggles in cold weather. It's not a strong point. It's not unfair to point it out. He's clearly not the same guy in cold weather as he is elsewhere. WTE is splitting hairs with his temperature argument, which is pointing out. That game was more about the wind than the cold, and while Manning didn't put up a huge game, he wasn't largely responsible for the loss. It's also worth noting that were the two teams to play again in similar conditions, you're not going to see that many turnovers. The Brady Manning debate is under such scrutiny that we can't help but blow up everything out of proportion.

I'd like to touch on a few other points made in the thread. The Broncos were completely outcoached. Simply put, Del Rio was not a good head coach. It's not a surprise that he got schooled by maybe the best head coach ever. Brady was essentially worthless in the first half. It's not a shock when Brady comes out of halftime said adjustments that the Patriots turn it up.

It's adversity, boys, it happens. The Ravens got their teeth kicked in for a decent chunk of last season. Look at how the Giants won their first SB with Eli. Or the 05 Steelers team, for instance. Very few teams cakewalk to a SB victory. You had an ugly moment. So be it.

There might be an abundance of talent here but there is no discipline. And if Peyton isnt someone you can rely on in crunch time than it is kind of wasting the team in general unless your true goal is just to have Oz learn and win championships under his time under center. The team has some glaring holes and while BB outcoached Del Rio (which would be a given) it wasnt the coaching that failed the team, it was the turnovers. I cant stress that enough, you just cant turn the ******* ball over. Its that simple. No way we should of allowed that team to get back in the damn game by given them the ball like that. This team wont win a SB playing like this, they just wont. Its easy to rake up the points against sub 500 teams but when it gets time to play true contenders we need to show we can come through. My biggest problem is im always watching OTHER teams overcome adversity while this team ******* collapses like punks when they shouldnt be. Its incredibly frustrating as a fan to watch this shit year after year. Your last paragraph has merit but this team for a while now has not shown me as a fan that they can overcome those types of adversity. Yea, we are ******* 9-2, wonderful. We might beat the overrated Chiefs to go to 10-2. Sweet. We went 13-3 last year too so regular season records just do much for me anymore. Failing to win a championship is failing to win a championship no matter if your 16-0 or 0-16. Sharpe had it correct when he stated that if your not winning championships its a failure. And if anyone thinks that im a spoiled fan so be it, they can kiss my mother****ing ass. I will always be a Bronco fan but i will always speak my mind if i think the team is failing to step it up like they should.

Didnt really mean to go on a rant but i get so tired of this crap. Been way too long (as Bowlen would say) not to have been to the big game.

[embeeteeay]

He came here for the abundance of talent. At the time of his decision, the Broncos had more talent than any other team that was pursuing him. It was the clear cut decision. I think Manning knows that he's not what he used to be. Can he carry a team to the playoffs? Yeah. Can he carry a team to the SB? Not anymore. He turned down a lot more money -over time - from the Titans to go to Denver. With all that being said... He struggles in cold weather. It's not a strong point. It's not unfair to point it out. He's clearly not the same guy in cold weather as he is elsewhere. WTE is splitting hairs with his temperature argument, which is pointing out. That game was more about the wind than the cold, and while Manning didn't put up a huge game, he wasn't largely responsible for the loss. It's also worth noting that were the two teams to play again in similar conditions, you're not going to see that many turnovers. The Brady Manning debate is under such scrutiny that we can't help but blow up everything out of proportion.

I'd like to touch on a few other points made in the thread. The Broncos were completely outcoached. Simply put, Del Rio was not a good head coach. It's not a surprise that he got schooled by maybe the best head coach ever. Brady was essentially worthless in the first half. It's not a shock when Brady comes out of halftime said adjustments that the Patriots turn it up.

It's adversity, boys, it happens. The Ravens got their teeth kicked in for a decent chunk of last season. Look at how the Giants won their first SB with Eli. Or the 05 Steelers team, for instance. Very few teams cakewalk to a SB victory. You had an ugly moment. So be it.

Good post, Bengal's boy.

[Poet]

Good post, Bengal's boy.

That's Mr. Bengal Boy to you, sir.

[SM19]

All QBs struggle in the elements? What were Brady's stats Sunday night? How about Flacco's last January?

We've got Manning's overall splits, in the article from the OP. Why are you asking what a couple of players each did in individual games? The correct comparison is to Brady's and Flacco's full careers, and the even better comparison would adjust all three sets of stats for homefield advantage and opposing defenses. I'm hoping at some point Football Outsiders or ANFLS or someone will compile those, because they'd be far more revealing than anything that's been said on the subject to date.

[atwater27]

I disagree, they are different QB's entirely.

So you don't think that Brady has benefitted mightily with a world class head coach who always fields a good to great defense? You don't think Manning would have absolutely flourished the same if not better than Brady in that situation as opposed to the marginal coaches and defenses he has had for the majority of his career? and you think that Brady would have had the same type of success with Dungy rather than Bellichick?

[WTE]

Good post, Bengal's boy.

I disagree it was a good post as he said I am splitting hairs w/ the argument Spano uses about Peyton's stats with temps 40 degrees or less. As I stated, 38 degrees is not cold. However, 25 degrees is.

And the facts are Peyton's record gets increasingly worse as the temps drop.

[embeeteeay]

I disagree it was a good post as he said I am splitting hairs w/ the argument Spano uses about Peyton's stats with temps 40 degrees or less. As I stated, 38 degrees is not cold. However, 25 degrees is.

And the facts are Peyton's record gets increasingly worse as the temps drop.

Sorry, I somehow missed that part.

Yes you are right about 40 degrees ever being considered cold temperature, skewing the reality of Manning's problems in the cold. Those of us who have followed Peyton's career understand the truth of his aversion to less than climate controlled conditions. The rest will eventually come to see.

[Lancane]

I disagree it was a good post as he said I am splitting hairs w/ the argument Spano uses about Peyton's stats with temps 40 degrees or less. As I stated, 38 degrees is not cold. However, 25 degrees is.

And the facts are Peyton's record gets increasingly worse as the temps drop.

Especially when he is shouldering the whole of the team, a fact some seem to forget. Manning's numbers are impressive, but he was still throwing the ball, doesn't matter if it's to Wayne or Thomas, he's had the supporting cast, but Indianapolis never had as well rounded a roster as the Broncos have had over the past two seasons and he continuously struggled in the cold and windy conditions and needed to rely on the other facets of the team, which is easily determined by looking at his stats year by year, the location of some of those contests and so on - perfect example is his stats the years the Colts had a late season game in Buffalo, which gets down right frigid and see how is stats are less then desirable. His team dropped the ball on Sunday and I believe that Del Rio being the man who implemented the gameplan, made the adjustments throughout give offensively holds a ****load of the blame. The coaching staff already knew he'd struggle, they've pretty much openly admitted it by the focus the offense gave to running the football over utilizing the best passing game currently in the league.

[Lancane]

So you don't think that Brady has benefitted mightily with a world class head coach who always fields a good to great defense? You don't think Manning would have absolutely flourished the same if not better than Brady in that situation as opposed to the marginal coaches and defenses he has had for the majority of his career? and you think that Brady would have had the same type of success with Dungy rather than Bellichick?

Brady has benefited in some ways, but Belichick isn't an offensive minded coach, so his development has nothing to do with him. Brady sought passing coaches to help him improve on a continual basis, and he was already pretty good coming out of college - just overlooked by many because of various circumstances that happened within the school's program. Phillip Rivers works with Passing Coaches every year as well, Brock Osweiler shares the same coach with Rivers in the off-season. I believe Brady has three Super Bowl rings due to Belichick, but I also believe that Brady would have flourished anywhere because he had that chip on his shoulder, because he knew what he wanted and he put the effort in to it to make it happen. I don't like Brady, I think he's a bigger ***hole then Jake Plummer, but there is no denying his ability and football savvy, just like there is no denying that Manning is probably the greatest cerebral quarterback of the modern era and best regular season quarterback of all-time.

[Poet]

Brady has benefited in some ways, but Belichick isn't an offensive minded coach, so his development has nothing to do with him. Brady sought passing coaches to help him improve on a continual basis, and he was already pretty good coming out of college - just overlooked by many because of various circumstances that happened within the school's program. Phillip Rivers works with Passing Coaches every year as well, Brock Osweiler shares the same coach with Rivers in the off-season. I believe Brady has three Super Bowl rings due to Belichick, but I also believe that Brady would have flourished anywhere because he had that chip on his shoulder, because he knew what he wanted and he put the effort in to it to make it happen. I don't like Brady, I think he's a bigger ***hole then Jake Plummer, but there is no denying his ability and football savvy, just like there is no denying that Manning is probably the greatest cerebral quarterback of the modern era and best regular season quarterback of all-time.

The Patriots lost coordinator after coordinator, and it didn't matter. BB didn't have to be an offensive guru to assist Brady.

[Poet]

There might be an abundance of talent here but there is no discipline. And if Peyton isnt someone you can rely on in crunch time than it is kind of wasting the team in general unless your true goal is just to have Oz learn and win championships under his time under center. The team has some glaring holes and while BB outcoached Del Rio (which would be a given) it wasnt the coaching that failed the team, it was the turnovers. I cant stress that enough, you just cant turn the ******* ball over. Its that simple. No way we should of allowed that team to get back in the damn game by given them the ball like that. This team wont win a SB playing like this, they just wont. Its easy to rake up the points against sub 500 teams but when it gets time to play true contenders we need to show we can come through. My biggest problem is im always watching OTHER teams overcome adversity while this team ******* collapses like punks when they shouldnt be. Its incredibly frustrating as a fan to watch this shit year after year. Your last paragraph has merit but this team for a while now has not shown me as a fan that they can overcome those types of adversity. Yea, we are ******* 9-2, wonderful. We might beat the overrated Chiefs to go to 10-2. Sweet. We went 13-3 last year too so regular season records just do much for me anymore. Failing to win a championship is failing to win a championship no matter if your 16-0 or 0-16. Sharpe had it correct when he stated that if your not winning championships its a failure. And if anyone thinks that im a spoiled fan so be it, they can kiss my mother****ing ass. I will always be a Bronco fan but i will always speak my mind if i think the team is failing to step it up like they should.

Didnt really mean to go on a rant but i get so tired of this crap. Been way too long (as Bowlen would say) not to have been to the big game.

I think John Fox is a bad coach. I think Del Rio is a bad coach. I think they're both simpletons who lack the ability to understand the nuances of the game. I think that pretty much eliminates the Broncos from winning a Super Bowl, unless Manning just goes all-out-man-mode. I understand and acknowledge your position in regards to the championship. If I can analogize, I have long since grown vitriolic towards Marvin Lewis. Not because I think he's a bad X's and O's coach, or because I think he's a bad person. I acknowledge that he has a great eye for talent - Brown finally let Lewis give more input in our drafts about 4 years ago, now look at us -, but we can't get it done in the playoffs for a LONE victory.

Having talent and winning records is fine and dandy, but winning is awesome. Many times a great team can do it, and then individuals gain far more credit than they deserve. Ironically, this pretty much summarizes Tom Brady, but we've had that conversation many times.

[Lancane]

The Patriots lost coordinator after coordinator, and it didn't matter. BB didn't have to be an offensive guru to assist Brady.

But here is the million dollar question, I stated that Brady doesn't have three rings without Belichick, would Belichick have three rings without Brady? I don't think so, he'd have probably fielded some above average teams as we saw with Cassel in New England that one year, but fact remains that Brady is still a HOF Quarterback who like Manning as been a standard of elite quarterbacking in the NFL.

[Poet]

But here is the million dollar question, I stated that Brady doesn't have three rings without Belichick, would Belichick have three rings without Brady? I don't think so, he'd have probably fielded some above average teams as we saw with Cassel in New England that one year, but fact remains that Brady is still a HOF Quarterback who like Manning as been a standard of elite quarterbacking in the NFL.

He might have one. We forget that Bledsoe was a very fine quarterback himself. What BB needed was a smart QB who could manage a game. Well, we've seen a lot of teams follow that blueprint. We almost might remember that BB won a playoff game with Bledsoe replacing a hurt Tom Brady. BB was going to be doing just fine in the playoffs. If you don't believe me, go rewatch their first SB victory over the Rams. You'll see that Brady was nothing more than a game manager. So in reality, that three ring to one ring comparison that comes up is more accurately viewed as a two ring to one ring comparison. Then again, that require fans to abandon the "he wins so he's good," vantage point that they find so reassuring.

[Joel]

It's a good point, and did occur to me when posting that thread on the subject the other day: As a Colt, all Mannings cold games were road games, and road games are harder anyway, particularly for offensive players and ESPECIALLY for those who routinely audible and re-audible as much as Manning.

The 40° cutoff is crap anyway; as noted in that thread, it's used, not because 40 is a nice round number, but because making it the cutoff conveniently excludes the 40° playoff game against KC when Manning not only WON, but played so well his team NEVER PUNTED (nor did the Chiefs; as memorable as that game was, one would think the commentators would, well, REMEMBER it.)

"Freezing playoff games" already narrows the sample to the point firm conclusions are hard, but "freezing HOME playoff games" makes it even smaller: There's just one. Manning didn't look good that day; he didn't (quite) break 300 yds in 5+ quarters of play, and ended it with his third turnover. He didn't really look horrible though either, just not Manning-like; if you handed someone the stats and names separately without telling them which game it was, most people would probable pair Mannings numbers with Flacco, and vice versa.

It was still just one game though, and his first season back after a year off from football, with high expectations for the #1 seed. It might've been as simple as nerves and a little lingering rust; all the reports from players and observers during and after TC were that Mannings balls have a LOT more zip on them this year than they did even at the end of last year. Hopefully we finish off the Chiefs (even without Vickerson to help shut down Charles,) then CJ2K, then the Bolts and get some more home playoff games to evaluate him with in a couple months.

That's when the verdict will come in, fairly or not.

[Poet]

Good lord, if Joel and I can agree on the 40 degree cutoff being trash, then it has to be true!

[Joel]

Good lord, if Joel and I can agree on the 40 degree cutoff being trash, then it has to be true!
Well, the problem is it's a Texas Sharpshooter Effect: The number wasn't chosen arbitrarily, but specifically to exclude the road playoff game Manning played VERY well despite the 40° temperature and hostile crowd. Limiting it to "<40°" let's them say he's "NEVER won a cold playoff game" rather than just "seldom." Again, the mid-fifties isn't ideal, but that was the temperature when he beat Baltimore on the road en route to his SB win. The real test will be Denver playoff games, where the other QB has the loud crowd and PFM can call all his audibles in peace.

[Lancane]

He might have one. We forget that Bledsoe was a very fine quarterback himself. What BB needed was a smart QB who could manage a game. Well, we've seen a lot of teams follow that blueprint. We almost might remember that BB won a playoff game with Bledsoe replacing a hurt Tom Brady. BB was going to be doing just fine in the playoffs. If you don't believe me, go rewatch their first SB victory over the Rams. You'll see that Brady was nothing more than a game manager. So in reality, that three ring to one ring comparison that comes up is more accurately viewed as a two ring to one ring comparison. Then again, that require fans to abandon the "he wins so he's good," vantage point that they find so reassuring.

However, let's throw in one more little gander, I don't believe Belichick is as good as he's labeled. How many championships has he had since the league found out that he illegally spied on opponents? Absolutely zero, and while Bledsoe was a good quarterback, even above average in some aspects, Denver won a playoff game with Tebow under center for crying out loud. Heck, you don't think much of Del Rio as a coach and he won playoff game with David Garrard at the helm. But when I look at what he did or didn't do his first go round as a head coach? Mike Shanahan also looked to be a better HC his second time around...but there can be a fair argument that without Elway then Shanahan is below average.

[SR]

So you don't think that Brady has benefitted mightily with a world class head coach who always fields a good to great defense? You don't think Manning would have absolutely flourished the same if not better than Brady in that situation as opposed to the marginal coaches and defenses he has had for the majority of his career? and you think that Brady would have had the same type of success with Dungy rather than Bellichick?

The Patriots always field a good to great defense?

[SR]

I disagree it was a good post as he said I am splitting hairs w/ the argument Spano uses about Peyton's stats with temps 40 degrees or less. As I stated, 38 degrees is not cold. However, 25 degrees is. And the facts are Peyton's record gets increasingly worse as the temps drop.

Actually, as long as there isn't any wind, 25 isn't very cold at all. It's easy to keep outer extremities warm without wind down to about five or 10 degrees.

[SR]

I think John Fox is a bad coach. I think Del Rio is a bad coach

I agree on some aspects.

[topscribe]

Sub 40 degree temps should not be the measuring stick for a cold weather game. For example, 38 degrees is not cold at all.

Let's break down Peyton's numbers in sub 32 degree temps - He's 3-7. His numbers get worse as the temps drop.
Yup, those are his numbers. There are no other numbers. There aren't 52
other players on the team. Nothing else to consider. Just those numbers. :rolleyes:
.

[topscribe]

However, let's throw in one more little gander, I don't believe Belichick is as good as he's labeled. How many championships has he had since the league found out that he illegally spied on opponents? Absolutely zero, and while Bledsoe was a good quarterback, even above average in some aspects, Denver won a playoff game with Tebow under center for crying out loud. Heck, you don't think much of Del Rio as a coach and he won playoff game with David Garrard at the helm. But when I look at what he did or didn't do his first go round as a head coach? Mike Shanahan also looked to be a better HC his second time around...but there can be a fair argument that without Elway then Shanahan is below average.
Well, I think that can be said about any coach, Cane. Outside of the
fluke win with Tebow, a coach generally is at the mercy of the quality
of his quarterback. Lombardi had Starr. Landry had Staubach. Noll
had Bradshaw. Walsh had Montana.

I know a lot of people are a bit down on Fox, but I think Elway saw
one thing in him when he hired him: Fox went to the Super Bowl
without a great QB. We've been a bit exasperated by some of his
calls, yes. But a lot can be said about how contagious enthusiasm
and energy is to a team. Fox has that, and the team has really
missed it these last few weeks.
.

[Ravage!!!]

He might have one. We forget that Bledsoe was a very fine quarterback himself. What BB needed was a smart QB who could manage a game. Well, we've seen a lot of teams follow that blueprint. We almost might remember that BB won a playoff game with Bledsoe replacing a hurt Tom Brady. BB was going to be doing just fine in the playoffs. If you don't believe me, go rewatch their first SB victory over the Rams. You'll see that Brady was nothing more than a game manager. So in reality, that three ring to one ring comparison that comes up is more accurately viewed as a two ring to one ring comparison. Then again, that require fans to abandon the "he wins so he's good," vantage point that they find so reassuring.

Belicheck probably would have been fired if Bledsoe not been hurt and Brady came in. He didn't get along with Bledsoe...at all... but knew he couldnt' get rid of him in fear of losing the locker room. The players on that team loved Bledsoe, and that was HIS team. The injury to Drew was a GIFT.

Chances are HIGH that Belicheck never would have won a Super Bowl as a HC had Brady not been the savior. But I can say that about ANY coach that has multiple SUper Bolw rings. The QB generally makes the HC, but as we've seen, if great QBs don't have the right coaching they can't win either. It's the combo, but the player on the field is by FAR the most important between the two.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not down on Fox at all. Why would I be???? WHy is anyone down on Fox? He's a great facilitator of coaches and players. He's proved to have TOUGH teams in Carolina despite having TERRIBLE QBs.... and what did he turn around and do when having to put Tebow in the lineup?? I don't see h ow ANYONE can look at his accomplishments in Denver and then say he's a "bad" coach.

[SR]

I'm not down on Fox at all. Why would I be???? WHy is anyone down on Fox? He's a great facilitator of coaches and players. He's proved to have TOUGH teams in Carolina despite having TERRIBLE QBs.... and what did he turn around and do when having to put Tebow in the lineup?? I don't see h ow ANYONE can look at his accomplishments in Denver and then say he's a "bad" coach.

I just don't like the undisciplined nature of our team in terms of effort and turnovers. Those are coaching problems and through 11 games there hasn't been any kind of fix.

[Ravage!!!]

I just don't like the undisciplined nature of our team in terms of effort and turnovers. Those are coaching problems and through 11 games there hasn't been any kind of fix.

You mean like the disciplined Patriots that turned the ball over 3 times in teh first half against Denver? Like how they benched their #1 rusher because he's had fumbling problems this year, and yet, he's still fumbling? Or like the their #2 runner was benched as well? Sound familiar to another team you know?

I don't think that is an indication of "bad coaching" in the least. I also think (and not point out you specifically, just talking in general here) that TOO many fans think that they can spot "undisciplined" team and players and throw that cricism around when things don't go our way. Considering how few penalties we get, I think the team is not "un-disciplined." I think that is an easy attack. It's like when you hear people wanting to blame the trainer because of pulled hamstrings. Seems there is just a NEED to "blame" someone for EVERYTHING that happens.

[Hawgdriver]

I just don't like the undisciplined nature of our team in terms of effort and turnovers. Those are coaching problems and through 11 games there hasn't been any kind of fix.

I don't see lack of effort. I don't see lack of discipline.

The team is the #1 seed in the AFC.

The teams that lack discipline come unglued and lose games. Yeah, Broncos lost to NE, but I don't see signs of coming unglued and spiraling downward.

If anything, I think Manning needs a shot of whiskey or something before games, he gets too overwrought.

[Northman]

I see lack of discipline quite easily actually. Whether anyone wants to blame that on coaching is their point of view or call. But this team is not ready to win a championship playing like they do. Love for them to prove me wrong but its just my gut feeling on them. At this point nothing matters until they get to the playoffs anyway. If they want the championship they need to go out and get it.

[Poet]

However, let's throw in one more little gander, I don't believe Belichick is as good as he's labeled. How many championships has he had since the league found out that he illegally spied on opponents? Absolutely zero, and while Bledsoe was a good quarterback, even above average in some aspects, Denver won a playoff game with Tebow under center for crying out loud. Heck, you don't think much of Del Rio as a coach and he won playoff game with David Garrard at the helm. But when I look at what he did or didn't do his first go round as a head coach? Mike Shanahan also looked to be a better HC his second time around...but there can be a fair argument that without Elway then Shanahan is below average.

But then that goes for Brady as well. The better question is who is better at their job, BB, or Brady? There's three other QB's on par with Brady. There's not another head coach in the league right now as good as BB.

I don't remember if I said it in this thread or not, but Del Rio won a playoff game with a game manager quarterback and a stout defense. Which, ironically, is exactly how BB won a Super Bowl...against one of the best offenses ever.

[Hawgdriver]

I see lack of discipline quite easily actually.

I don't. What am I missing?

[SR]

You mean like the disciplined Patriots that turned the ball over 3 times in teh first half against Denver? Like how they benched their #1 rusher because he's had fumbling problems this year, and yet, he's still fumbling? Or like the their #2 runner was benched as well? Sound familiar to another team you know? I don't think that is an indication of "bad coaching" in the least. I also think (and not point out you specifically, just talking in general here) that TOO many fans think that they can spot "undisciplined" team and players and throw that cricism around when things don't go our way. Considering how few penalties we get, I think the team is not "un-disciplined." I think that is an easy attack. It's like when you hear people wanting to blame the trainer because of pulled hamstrings. Seems there is just a NEED to "blame" someone for EVERYTHING that happens.

That's was one half of football for NE.
It's been 11 games THIS SEASON for Denver.

[SR]

I don't see lack of effort. I don't see lack of discipline. The team is the #1 seed in the AFC. The teams that lack discipline come unglued and lose games. Yeah, Broncos lost to NE, but I don't see signs of coming unglued and spiraling downward. If anything, I think Manning needs a shot of whiskey or something before games, he gets too overwrought.

Yeah, Denver is 9-2 and the top seed in the AFC, but there are a couple aspects of this team that if they're not corrected are going to bite this team in the ass come playoff time...and they're all coachable problems.

[WARHORSE]

Sub 40 degree temps should not be the measuring stick for a cold weather game. For example, 38 degrees is not cold at all.

Let's break down Peyton's numbers in sub 32 degree temps - He's 3-7. His numbers get worse as the temps drop.


haha

Keep thinking this is the issue.

Peyton didnt lose that game.

And come playoff time, look forward to us running the ball down your throats again.

Why throw Peyton when you have a 14 pt lead and playing a team that cant stop the run to the tune of 6 yards per carry ?


See you in the playoffs.

[SR]

haha Keep thinking this is the issue. Peyton didnt lose that game. And come playoff time, look forward to us running the ball down your throats again. Why throw Peyton when you have a 14 pt lead and playing a team that cant stop the run to the tune of 6 yards per carry ? See you in the playoffs.

Huh?

[WTE]

Huh?

Warhorse smoking much peace pipe.

[Simple Jaded]

Huh?
Basically he's saying the Broncos were pounding NE's mudhole full of cocksnot and he supports their decision to stick with what's working.

[BroncoJoe]

You mean like the disciplined Patriots that turned the ball over 3 times in teh first half against Denver? Like how they benched their #1 rusher because he's had fumbling problems this year, and yet, he's still fumbling? Or like the their #2 runner was benched as well? Sound familiar to another team you know?

I don't think that is an indication of "bad coaching" in the least. I also think (and not point out you specifically, just talking in general here) that TOO many fans think that they can spot "undisciplined" team and players and throw that cricism around when things don't go our way. Considering how few penalties we get, I think the team is not "un-disciplined." I think that is an easy attack. It's like when you hear people wanting to blame the trainer because of pulled hamstrings. Seems there is just a NEED to "blame" someone for EVERYTHING that happens.

We're actually tied for 7th for the most penalized team. I don't necessarily think we're undisciplined, but we have FAR too many penalties.

[Ravage!!!]

That's was one half of football for NE.
It's been 11 games THIS SEASON for Denver.

Their running back wasn't removed from the game for that ONE fumble. He's been fumbling all season.

[SR]

Their running back wasn't removed from the game for that ONE fumble. He's been fumbling all season.

As a team, how many lost fumbles does NE have compared to Denver?

[MOtorboat]

As a team, how many lost fumbles does NE have compared to Denver?

Denver leads the AFC with 16. New England is tied for 2nd with 8.

[Ravage!!!]

We're actually tied for 7th for the most penalized team. I don't necessarily think we're undisciplined, but we have FAR too many penalties.

Fair enough. I didn't realize. But I was thinking of OL penalties when making the comment. Are we high in offensive penalties, or defensive...or is it both?

[Ravage!!!]

As a team, how many lost fumbles does NE have compared to Denver?

You said that the fumbles happen and "nothign seems to be done about it." Which I find to be a statement that doesn't have any backign to it because we see our coaches "sit" players that fumble as much as anyone else. We have seen Belicheck SIT his starting two RBs becaus of fumbles, and it wasn't because they fumbled in just that ONE game...he's had fumbling problems all year long.

Point being, is Belicheck "not doing anything about it" when we see his starting RB continue to fumble all year long?

[SR]

You said that the fumbles happen and "nothign seems to be done about it." Which I find to be a statement that doesn't have any backign to it because we see our coaches "sit" players that fumble as much as anyone else. We have seen Belicheck SIT his starting two RBs becaus of fumbles, and it wasn't because they fumbled in just that ONE game...he's had fumbling problems all year long. Point being, is Belicheck "not doing anything about it" when we see his starting RB continue to fumble all year long?

Denver leads the AFC in fumbles. Twice as many as NE. That was my point.

[Ravage!!!]

Denver leads the AFC in fumbles. Twice as many as NE. That was my point.

Your point was that you don't see the coaches doing anything about it. That's a statement is not based on fact because you don't know what the coaches are doign to try and solve the problem.

Either way. If that is what you gather from the fumble stat.... that the team is undisciplined.. that's your right. I just don't see it that way.

[MOtorboat]

Your point was that you don't see the coaches doing anything about it. That's a statement is not based on fact because you don't know what the coaches are doign to try and solve the problem.

Either way. If that is what you gather from the fumble stat.... that the team is undisciplined.. that's your right. I just don't see it that way.

Fine. Semantics.

Whatever they are doing isn't working. At all.

[SR]

Your point was that you don't see the coaches doing anything about it. That's a statement is not based on fact because you don't know what the coaches are doign to try and solve the problem. Either way. If that is what you gather from the fumble stat.... that the team is undisciplined.. that's your right. I just don't see it that way.

What MO said

[Northman]

Yea, even if the coaches are addressing the fumbling its clearly not sinking in. I realize that we dont have a large stockpile of backs to work with but its clearly not sinking in when the players are continuing to cough up the football. You just cant win very many football games like that and it has been something that has plagued us the last couple of years.

[Hawgdriver]

Some lost fumbles are on Chris Clark. Some are on the running backs. Some are on the coaches. Etc.

It's a fair point that ball security is a weakness and that's on the coaches. Not sure how much. Not sure that's a discipline issue, but could be.

[Joel]

Fine. Semantics.

Whatever they are doing isn't working. At all.
Exactly: Stop saying, "it's unacceptable, but fixable," EVERY week: ACTUALLY fix it. We're out of second chances: Another loss probably gives NE homefield, and KC the AFCW if it's against them.

We phone in games, don't show up for the first half (or the second) and fumble, fumble, fumble. That's discipline, and THAT'S coaching. Normally if a team has lots of turnovers I look at the QB, because interceptions are several times more common than fumbles—except in Denver, where our RBs fumbles roughly equal our QBs Ints. That's a horrifying number: The statistically SAFEST way to move the ball is the RISKIEST for us. Even though the guys doing most of it are backups who get maybe a dozen runs/game. You're right, coach: That IS inexcusable.

[Hawgdriver]

One of the young backs needs to demonstrate ball security. Perhaps the coaching staff is failing to address this?


"We have no other options," Gase said. "I mean, nobody is coming through that door. At some point one of these three guys, these young guys, they have to step up. We have to be able to not have (Moreno) go 37 carries a game. So one of these guys has to step up and hold on to the ball and do what they’re supposed to do and that’s a challenge to them. Somebody is going to step up. Hopefully, Montee decides, 'hey it’s not going to happen anymore.' We have to get that fixed -- but nobody is walking through that door so we have to fix it and they have to do it during a game."

[MOtorboat]

One of the young backs needs to demonstrate ball security. Perhaps the coaching staff is failing to address this?

Talk is kind of cheap when you have double the fumbles of anyone else in he conference.

[Ravage!!!]

I just LOVE it when COUCH, paper back, coaches say FIX IT..... as if the coaches are the ones on the field fumbling the ball. I LOVE it when not only are there posters that have never coached preaching about how its a "discipline" problem, but posters that have never even strapped on shoulder pads from the earliest of ages... are griping about the the NFL coaches "aren't ADDRESSING" the problem, as if they can't see it when the couch geniuses can. I really like how posters say it's "Not being addressed" because they saw a fumble in the game.

Joel... how many teams in the NFL have gone undefeated throughout a season and won the Super Bowl? Throughout the history of the NFL, has their been GREAT, all-time, teams??? If so, they the MUST have lost, and if they were an all-time great team... they LOST to weaker teams. This "we phone in losses" is COMPLETELY bullshit when we've lost just 2 games.

[Hawgdriver]

Talk is kind of cheap when you have double the fumbles of anyone else in he conference.

So the coaching staff is failing to provide adequate instruction of technique to Ball, Hillman, and Anderson, while Moreno learned his excellent technique by osmosis?

[MOtorboat]

So the coaching staff is failing to provide adequate instruction of technique to Ball, Hillman, and Anderson, while Moreno learned his excellent technique by osmosis?

I don't know. But whatever they are doing to try and fix it is failing miserably. They have DOUBLE the fumbles than any other team in the conference.

[Joel]

I just LOVE it when COUCH, paper back, coaches say FIX IT..... as if the coaches are the ones on the field fumbling the ball. I LOVE it when not only are there posters that have never coached preaching about how its a "discipline" problem, but posters that have never even strapped on shoulder pads from the earliest of ages... are griping about the the NFL coaches "aren't ADDRESSING" the problem, as if they can't see it when the couch geniuses can. I really like how posters say it's "Not being addressed" because they saw a fumble in the game.

Joel... how many teams in the NFL have gone undefeated throughout a season and won the Super Bowl? Throughout the history of the NFL, has their been GREAT, all-time, teams??? If so, they the MUST have lost, and if they were an all-time great team... they LOST to weaker teams. This "we phone in losses" is COMPLETELY bullshit when we've lost just 2 games.

We stomped the Ravens in their own house last year; if not for a Prevent "so what" TD it would've been 34-10. Just a MONTH later they came to Denver and beat us in a DOT game where we made Flacco look like Montana. Tell me we came to play that day. I said we phone in GAMES; we get away with it against a Washington or Jacksonville, but not GOOD teams.

We're not talking about A fumble in A game, we're talking about SEASON where we lead the NFL with 16 (the Giants are next with 12.) The Chiefs lead the league in sacks AND turnovers, yet we only allowed ONE turnover and NO sacks against them—so why did we spend a SOLID MONTH before that fumbling to crap defenses multiple times per game and letting them make Manning run for his life. We KNOW we have the talent to play like we did against KC EVERY week, yet that's the exception rather than the rule: Why?

Your speculationg about my personal history has nothing to do with two of our three backs giving the ball away EVERY GAME they play, or a team with SB talent not finishing (or starting) games. Just because we beat a bunch of 4-7 teams when we finally bothered to start playing doesn't make us SB contenders.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't know. But whatever they are doing to try and fix it is failing miserably. They have DOUBLE the fumbles than any other team in the conference.

The stat line you reference is fumbles lost, not total fumbles. Regardless, point taken.

Some of the fumbles can be explained. The injuries and blocking problems (e.g. JT, noob RBs) on the offensive line cause fumbles. Trindon Holliday causes fumbles. Rookie backs cause fumbles.

It's a major concern, but it doesn't strike me as a discipline issue. I think other factors explain the phenomenon.

[MOtorboat]

The stat line you reference is fumbles lost, not total fumbles. Regardless, point taken.

Some of the fumbles can be explained. The injuries and blocking problems (e.g. JT, noob RBs) on the offensive line cause fumbles. Trindon Holliday causes fumbles. Rookie backs cause fumbles.

It's a major concern, but it doesn't strike me as a discipline issue. I think other factors explain the phenomenon.

Doesn't that make it worse?

[Joel]

Games like the 'Skins and Jax stand out: We zipped downfield in one play on our first drive, then went silent and were tied 7-7 at the half at home against wretched D; they led 21-7 after our next two possessions. But all is well because the offense and defense finally showed up halfway through the third so we won by 24.

Great—except there'll be no 3-8 teams in the playoffs. If we take plays (let alone whole halfs) off they'll end our season on the spot. But for a failed two point conversion, the 2-9 Jags would've been TIED at the half against our Super Bowl favorite, record setting offense. They won't make the playoffs either, so beating them 35-19 when bothered to finish the game doesn't reassure.

Why can't we play like whole GAMES like champions, EVERY week? That smacks of poor coaching just as a seasons worth of league leading fumbles does.

[silkamilkamonico]

I think a better measuring point is, when it's 15 degrees with a little wind chill, how comfortable are you with Peyton Manning. I'm not. And it isn't Peyton's fault because what QB is going to be great in cold weather? It just sucks to know that our team revolves around the play of our QB maybe more than any other team, and cold weather games, which teams need to win in the playoffs, is going to take away every advantage we have as a team.

Hell, we have already seen it last year.

[Hawgdriver]

Doesn't that make it worse?

It might. Too lazy to actually look it up. Just being clear, not naysaying.

[MOtorboat]

I think a better measuring point is, when it's 15 degrees with a little wind chill, how comfortable are you with Peyton Manning. I'm not. And it isn't Peyton's fault because what QB is going to be great in cold weather? It just sucks to know that our team revolves around the play of our QB maybe more than any other team, and cold weather games, which teams need to win in the playoffs, is going to take away every advantage we have as a team.

Hell, we have already seen it last year.

Does it?

He played poorly and Denver lost on the road by 3 in overtime.

[WTE]

Guys, have you moved on to KC yet? Doesn't seem like it to this keen observer.

[Hawgdriver]

I'll move on when I'm damn good and ready. Right now I'm talking about...

what was it?

[SR]

I just LOVE it when COUCH, paper back, coaches say FIX IT..... as if the coaches are the ones on the field fumbling the ball. I LOVE it when not only are there posters that have never coached preaching about how its a "discipline" problem, but posters that have never even strapped on shoulder pads from the earliest of ages... are griping about the the NFL coaches "aren't ADDRESSING" the problem, as if they can't see it when the couch geniuses can. I really like how posters say it's "Not being addressed" because they saw a fumble in the game. Joel... how many teams in the NFL have gone undefeated throughout a season and won the Super Bowl? Throughout the history of the NFL, has their been GREAT, all-time, teams??? If so, they the MUST have lost, and if they were an all-time great team... they LOST to weaker teams. This "we phone in losses" is COMPLETELY bullshit when we've lost just 2 games.

What makes you so much more qualified than any of us? You're no different.

[WTE]

What makes you so much more qualified than any of us? You're no different.

Actually, Ravage!!! is less qualified.

[Slick]

Coaches can teach and preach taking care of the football all week long. Ultimately it's up to the players to hold on to the ball.

[SR]

Coaches can teach and preach taking care of the football all week long. Ultimately it's up to the players to hold on to the ball.

True enough. We have lost two games because of turnovers by running backs. Something has to happen soon or we are gonna be up the creek without a paddle. I LOVE what Moreno is doing but they're gonna kill him the way they have run him the last two weeks. I want to see Ball hang on to the ball because that kid is very, very talented.

[silkamilkamonico]

Does it?

He played poorly and Denver lost on the road by 3 in overtime.

They lost. Just like last year in Denver in the playoffs.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think its fair to say the staff knows how to work with the backs. They did help Moreno overcome it after all. Ball will be fine. Hillman's bqll security concerns me more because he doesn't put both hands on the ball when he's in traffic, combined with being undundersized.

[SR]

I think its fair to say the staff knows how to work with the backs. They did help Moreno overcome it after all. Ball will be fine. Hillman's bqll security concerns me more because he doesn't put both hands on the ball when he's in traffic, combined with being undundersized.

Hillman's ball security problems are also magnified by his lack of productivity.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Hillman's ball security problems are also magnified by his lack of productivity.

He's decent in space (screen passes, etc.), but I hold my breath whenever they give him the ball between the tackles.

[embeeteeay]

Guys, this thread was about Manning's performance in cold weather, not the RBs and fumbling issues.

So I'd like to mention that the weather in KC should be a balmy 48 degrees on Sunday.

[MOtorboat]

Guys, this thread was about Manning's performance in cold weather, not the RBs and fumbling issues.

So I'd like to mention that the weather in KC should be a balmy 48 degrees on Sunday.

No one really gives a shit what you think. Thanks, though.

[SR]

Guys, this thread was about Manning's performance in cold weather, not the RBs and fumbling issues. So I'd like to mention that the weather in KC should be a balmy 48 degrees on Sunday.

Thanks Jim Cantore ;)

[WTE]

Guys, this thread was about Manning's performance in cold weather, not the RBs and fumbling issues.

So I'd like to mention that the weather in KC should be a balmy 48 degrees on Sunday.

That's a fantastic point and I greatly appreciate what you think.

Hence, given the ideal throwing conditions do you think we will finally see Peyton display confidence and air it 20+ more yards at least once this Sunday?

[MOtorboat]

How cute. The Patriot trolls are here to give us their superior football knowledge.

[WTE]

How cute. The Patriot trolls are here to give us their superior football knowledge.

Mo, can you give me an update on just how bad 'Bama is steamrolling over Auburn? I haven't been able to watch.

Thanks Little Buddy!

[MOtorboat]

Mo, can you give me an update on just how bad 'Bama is steamrolling over Auburn? I haven't been able to watch.

Thanks Little Buddy!

It's 28-21 because Auburn just gave up a 99 yard pass. Thanks for asking!

[WTE]

It's 28-21 because Auburn just gave up a 99 yard pass. Thanks for asking!

Thanks for the update Little Buddy! Far from a steam rolling tho so far, wouldn't you say?

Anyhoots, plenty of time left!!

[SR]

Thanks for the update Little Buddy! Far from a steam rolling tho so far, wouldn't you say? Anyhoots, plenty of time left!!

Can you quit trolling outside of smack please?

[embeeteeay]

That's a fantastic point and I greatly appreciate what you think.

Hence, given the ideal throwing conditions do you think we will finally see Peyton display confidence and air it 20+ more yards at least once this Sunday?

Thank you.

I should mention that I like you much more than Mr MOtormouth.............er MOtorboat.

Peyton should have no problems in the balmy KC air and zepher-like wind conditions.....very dome-like.

In fact, the only thing that I see which could prevent him from reverting to his early season superlative and record-setting play is the fact that this is a big game.

[Simple Jaded]

Fine. Semantics.

Whatever they are doing isn't working. At all.

Actually, speaking of semantics, whatever they're doing with Hillman seems to be working.

[Joel]

Thank you.

I should mention that I like you much more than Mr MOtormouth.............er MOtorboat.

Peyton should have no problems in the balmy KC air and zepher-like wind conditions.....very dome-like.

In fact, the only thing that I see which could prevent him from reverting to his early season superlative and record-setting play is the fact that this is a big game.
The 2003 Divisional Playoff @KC was a big game at 40°; Manning was 22/30 for 304 yds, 3 TDs and 0 Ints. His team never punted and won 38-31. http://tinyurl.com/qepyhmb

I'm still not sure why they didn't try a 45 yd FG on 4th and 3 with 0:13 to play, but I guess Dungy thought the risk of a blocked FG greater than the risk of giving KC the ball at their 30 with 0:08 to play, down by a TD with no time outs. Maybe that's why Manning called six straight runs last year and gave the Ravens the ball at their 30 with 0:40 to play, down by a TD with no time outs.

Again, the "Manning's never won a playoff <40°" stat is more about EXCLUDING that game than it is listing his cold weather playoffs. He's not great against playoff teams on the road and in the cold, but who is? Odds are we'll get to see how good Brady does in a rare road playoff game before the SB; maybe we should compare notes then.

[Joel]

Actually, speaking of semantics, whatever they're doing with Hillman seems to be working.
Benching him since the Colts game? I guess it's not failing; not sure if it's succeeding much since Ball's just giving opponents early Christmas presents in his place. I said after the last KC game he couldn't expect Trevathan and Jammer to bail him out everytime, but apparently even a Trevathan fumble recovery wasn't enough to offset Balls lost fumble in a second straight game.

[SR]

Actually, speaking of semantics, whatever they're doing with Hillman seems to be working.

Yeah. He hasn't played.

As Borat would say, "Great success!"

[Simple Jaded]

Benching him since the Colts game? I guess it's not failing; not sure if it's succeeding much since Ball's just giving opponents early Christmas presents in his place. I said after the last KC game he couldn't expect Trevathan and Jammer to bail him out everytime, but apparently even a Trevathan fumble recovery wasn't enough to offset Balls lost fumble in a second straight game.
He hasn't fumbled since the Colts game, it's working. They might have to try something different with Ball, but the option is always there.

[Broncolingus]

Peyton is not a good QB in cold weather games...

[atwater27]

Eat it haters.

[SR]

Eat it haters.

LOL considering you high fived the post above yours

[Northman]

Peyton is not a good QB in cold weather games...

It wasnt cold today.

[atwater27]

42 degrees.
Pretty balmy, indeed

[Simple Jaded]

It's not actually "cold" unless Manning struggles.

[atwater27]

It's not actually "cold" unless Manning struggles.

/thread

[Broncolingus]

If it will help clarify, generally (at least) my context refers to games below 30...

...and with other elements (sleet, snow, etc.).

I also don't apply a Donkster slant to everything...eg. one good or bad game demonstrates fact.

I just think during his career, Peyton has been a poorer QB when playing outside and in cold/wet weather...

...yes, there's been 'cold weather' games where that hasn't been the case and he's played well, just as there's been occasional mild/warm/dry games where he's played poorly.

Again, though, just the overall trend and not based one or two instances...

JMO...

[Lancane]

It's not just the cold, it's various elements along with it, as BL was pointing out to and sorry but 42 degrees isn't F'n balmy, that is average for a Colorado winter day, big difference to your typical Buffalo NY, Chicago IL or Boston MA winter day where it is 30 degrees with a -15 degree wind chill, various forms of snow fall and a slightly frozen surfaces that effect not only sports but simple day to day activities. Nowhere near the conditions that Manning faced the week before...

[Poet]

Watching people try to debate degrees of weather is hilarious.

[Northman]

It's not just the cold, it's various elements along with it, as BL was pointing out to and sorry but 42 degrees isn't F'n balmy, that is average for a Colorado winter day, big difference to your typical Buffalo NY, Chicago IL or Boston MA winter day where it is 30 degrees with a -15 degree wind chill, various forms of snow fall and a slightly frozen surfaces that effect not only sports but simple day to day activities. Nowhere near the conditions that Manning faced the week before...

Exactly.

It was 45 degrees here yesterday but with no wind and the sun shining it felt like 60-70. Its all dependent on what other conditions are going on.

[Lancane]

Exactly.

It was 45 degrees here yesterday but with no wind and the sun shining it felt like 60-70. Its all dependent on what other conditions are going on.

I had a friend who moved here from Anchorage, we met for coffee one day to BS and just chit-chat and I said "Damn it's too damn cold", it was snowing and was about 30 degrees maybe 20 with the wind chill and he laughed at me and told me "This feels like an average day back home!", I thought he was nuts. Now he lives in Nova Scotia...crazy *******.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I had a friend who moved here from Anchorage, we met for coffee one day to BS and just chit-chat and I said "Damn it's too damn cold", it was snowing and was about 30 degrees maybe 20 with the wind chill and he laughed at me and told me "This feels like an average day back home!", I thought he was nuts. Now he lives in Nova Scotia...crazy *******.

Cold is relative. I use to think winters in Boise (very similar climate to Denver) were cold, then I spend one winter in Sioux Falls, SD. I said I would never complain about another Boise winter after that. It didn't get above 20 degrees until the 3rd week of March, and it was frequently 10-20 below zero with the windchill during January and March.

[SR]

Cold is relative. I use to think winters in Boise (very similar climate to Denver) were cold, then I spend one winter in Sioux Falls, SD. I said I would never complain about another Boise winter after that. It didn't get above 20 degrees until the 3rd week of March, and it was frequently 10-20 below zero with the windchill during January and March.

Same here. Working night shift all winter for the winter of 2010-2011 broke me. I mean, I still complain about the cold because it's cold, but when you "feel ok" at 5 degrees with no wind, something isn't right. Working night in and night out in 0 to -30+ makes you appreciate the 30 degree days...especially when winter here shows it's face in October and doesn't let up until April-Mayish.

[jhildebrand]

Manning will have a very cold game Sunday. The high might be 15 on Sunday. This will be good for them.

[LawDog]

Peyton is the greatest regular season quarterback of all time. And yet, he has played all these playoff games on the road. Anyone else see a paradox here?

[BroncoNut]

not sure what you are getting at Dog. explain

[SR]

Peyton is the greatest regular season quarterback of all time. And yet, he has played all these playoff games on the road. Anyone else see a paradox here?

The explination for that is easy. Other teams finished with better records those years and the Colts didn't have homefield throughout. Also, I believe his Super Bowl loss was also considered a road playoff loss as New Orleans was the "home" team. Don't quote me there though.

[Ravage!!!]

The explination for that is easy. Other teams finished with better records those years and the Colts didn't have homefield throughout. Also, I believe his Super Bowl loss was also considered a road playoff loss as New Orleans was the "home" team. Don't quote me there though.

Yeah.. I don't think that's true. I mean, that would really be odd since it's a neutral field.


But.. I think too much is made out of the "cold weather" stat. I think its a stat that "fits" .. and thus... we make it a fact. Wasn't long ago that Denver "can't win" in Florida. That was a "fact" because we had the lost games to PROVE it.

Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl by more than three points, and hasn't won a Super Bowl since Vinatari left. I guess going by the given data, Brady can't win a Super Bowl without Vinatari kicking FGs for him.

[Poet]

Yeah.. I don't think that's true. I mean, that would really be odd since it's a neutral field.


But.. I think too much is made out of the "cold weather" stat. I think its a stat that "fits" .. and thus... we make it a fact. Wasn't long ago that Denver "can't win" in Florida. That was a "fact" because we had the lost games to PROVE it.

Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl by more than three points, and hasn't won a Super Bowl since Vinatari left. I guess going by the given data, Brady can't win a Super Bowl without Vinatari kicking FGs for him.

There is technically a home and an away team. They use it for the coin flip, I'm not sure how it's determined, and I'm not sure if they use that determination to officially declare that someone is playing at home or away on a neutral field.

[MOtorboat]

There is technically a home and an away team. They use it for the coin flip, I'm not sure how it's determined, and I'm not sure if they use that determination to officially declare that someone is playing at home or away on a neutral field.

Every other year...

[LawDog]

not sure what you are getting at Dog. explain

If Manning is so unstoppable in the regular season, how did the Colts have so many playoff road games? Basically, I'm just poking fun a bit at the people that make the statement that he can only win in the regular season, but in the big time post season games he sucks. Maybe he was good enough to make the playoffs even with marginal teams around him, and those weaknesses get exposed in the playoffs. Doesn't mean that Manning himself chokes in the postseason or that there is some correlation between cold weather and his win loss record. That is all.

[Ravage!!!]

If Manning is so unstoppable in the regular season, how did the Colts have so many playoff road games? Basically, I'm just poking fun a bit at the people that make the statement that he can only win in the regular season, but in the big time post season games he sucks. Maybe he was good enough to make the playoffs even with marginal teams around him, and those weaknesses get exposed in the playoffs. Doesn't mean that Manning himself chokes in the postseason or that there is some correlation between cold weather and his win loss record. That is all.

This is exactly my point with how the temperature stat is overblown. It fits, but the truth is that there are TENS of other factors that come into play. Can Brady REALLY not win without Vinatari on the roster? Well, I guess not because the stats show that he can't. Therefore, it must be a fact! Forget allllll the other things that come into play, lets just focus in on the ONE stat that seems to fit the criteria.

[Mike]

We all love Manning here (well, most of us). But the fact is his play gets noticably worse in really cold weather. Football is a team sport, but for the most part Denver isn't good enough to beat good teams when Manning isn't playing good football.

As to the article, meh. I could care less what his record was in cold weather before the injury or what other QBs do in the cold. I have seen how he performs in Denver in really cold weather post injury and there is a huge dropoff. We will see this weekend. I hope he can dispell this concern.

[Northman]

We all love Manning here (well, most of us). But the fact is his play gets noticably worse in really cold weather. Football is a team sport, but for the most part Denver isn't good enough to beat good teams when Manning isn't playing good football.

As to the article, meh. I could care less what his record was in cold weather before the injury or what other QBs do in the cold. I have seen how he performs in Denver in really cold weather post injury and there is a huge dropoff. We will see this weekend. I hope he can dispell this concern.

Indeed.

At the end of the day the stereotype that he has is he struggles when playing in colder weather and unfortunately until he goes and plays better and leads whatever team he is on to a SB by going outside and doing it (or if he makes it too the SB this year which is outdoors) than he will always have that asterisk next to his name in this regard. It just is what it is.

[jhildebrand]

Peyton is the greatest regular season quarterback of all time. And yet, he has played all these playoff games on the road. Anyone else see a paradox here?

If, as you contend, he is the greatest regular season QB, then why are his teams always on the road? :confused: If he is the greatest regular season QB, he would be at home.

Manning isn't the best regular season QB. He is one of the top 3 QB's all time. He may be the GOAT by the time he is done in Denver!

[BroncoNut]

[QUOTE=The Brandon Spano Network;2080405]. Patrick made some pretty awesome points,
:lol: that is funny. you are funny

[LawDog]

If, as you contend, he is the greatest regular season QB, then why are his teams always on the road? :confused: If he is the greatest regular season QB, he would be at home.

That is exactly the point I was making. People like to put Manning down by saying he is only great in the regular season, but he ended up playing a ton of road games in the playoffs... can't have it both ways.

[AllThings18]

It's not actually "cold" unless Manning struggles.Sounds a bit like the old cliche that It's not a big game unless Manning loses.

[Northman]

That is exactly the point I was making. People like to put Manning down by saying he is only great in the regular season, but he ended up playing a ton of road games in the playoffs... can't have it both ways.

I just pointed out in another thread that Flacco has played 11 road games and is 7-4. Some people are putting way too much emphasis on playing on the road yet they seem to forget that even the 98' Broncos had to go to both KC and Pitt on their way to the SB vs the Pack. It just doesnt mean the same anymore as it used too when competing in the playoffs.

[BroncoNut]

Coaches can teach and preach taking care of the football all week long. Ultimately it's up to the players to hold on to the ball.

coaches can also suggest that defensive players do things to cause fumbles. like hitting with the helmet, punching at the ball, ripping it. not making excuses, but fumbles are going to happen despite coaching. Plus, we have a pretty high octane offense, we've certainly relied on it all season. I think some of the 16 fumbles can be attributed to the number of times we carry the ball, and also Trindon Holiday. I dont' like the stat "leads the AFC in NUMBER of fumbles. there needs to be another statistic. like fumble rate,

[SR]

coaches can also suggest that defensive players do things to cause fumbles. like hitting with the helmet, punching at the ball, ripping it. not making excuses, but fumbles are going to happen despite coaching. Plus, we have a pretty high octane offense, we've certainly relied on it all season. I think some of the 16 fumbles can be attributed to the number of times we carry the ball, and also Trindon Holiday. I dont' like the stat "leads the AFC in NUMBER of fumbles. there needs to be another statistic. like fumble rate,

I don't know if Denver has run so many plays that doing a rate of fumble stat would improve their "numbers" any. Fumble rate, like amount of fumbles per play, might even be a misleading stat. It would be easy to come up with the number, but misleading considering not every team runs the same amount of plays. I think total fumbles and fumbles lost are about as telling as you're going to get there.

[AllThings18]

I don't know if Denver has run so many plays that doing a rate of fumble stat would improve their "numbers" any. Fumble rate, like amount of fumbles per play, might even be a misleading stat. It would be easy to come up with the number, but misleading considering not every team runs the same amount of plays. I think total fumbles and fumbles lost are about as telling as you're going to get there.

A ratio per touch could be a decent indicator.

If a back has 1 fumble in 10 carries and another has 3 in 100 carries, 3 is obviously greater than 1, but the ratio of 3/100 is far better than 1/10.

The harder part to calculate is that when a QB/RB has an issue with the exchange, they typically go on the QB even though more times than not it should be on the RB's tally.


Mannning's had 10 fumbles lost 6, and only 2 maybe 3 are truly on him. The strip/sacks are caused by the excessive pressure/lack of protection, the QB/RB exchanges I have witnesses are more on the RB's, and there have been a couple of bad snaps that get charged to the QB as well.

Moreno has 1 in 244 touches
Ball has 3 in 97 touches
Hilliman has 2 in 52 touches
Manning has 10 in 524 touches(Pass attempts + sacks + rushes)

For the backs I defined touches as rushing attempts + receptions.

Moreno has a fumble ratio of 1 out of every 244
Ball has a fumble ratio of 1 out of every 32 touches
Hilliman has a fumble ratio of 1 out of every 26 touches
Manning has a fumble ratio of 1 every 52 touches(if you charge him with every fumble as opposed to accurately assessing blame).


Fumbles lost is harder to gauge because it more times than not it has as much to do with a lucky bounce.

Fumbles Lost: P.Manning 6, M.Ball 3, T.Holliday 2, E.Decker 1, D.Trevathan 1, R.Hillman 1, W.Welker 1, T.Carter 1 Total: 16

[Northman]

I think Joel has competition for the longest post award with AT18.

[Simple Jaded]

I think Joel has competition for the longest post award with AT18.

Please! That's like saying Joel has competition for longest post award.

[Poet]

I once wrote a 25 thousand word post on this message board.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I once wrote a 25 thousand word post on this message board.

Jesus wept

[Poet]

Jesus wept

All the post said was: 25 thousand word post.

[Dzone]

All the post said was: 25 thousand word post.
Jesus wept.

[Poet]

Jesus wept.

We all have our cro-

Never mind.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

A ratio per touch could be a decent indicator.

If a back has 1 fumble in 10 carries and another has 3 in 100 carries, 3 is obviously greater than 1, but the ratio of 3/100 is far better than 1/10.

The harder part to calculate is that when a QB/RB has an issue with the exchange, they typically go on the QB even though more times than not it should be on the RB's tally.


Mannning's had 10 fumbles lost 6, and only 2 maybe 3 are truly on him. The strip/sacks are caused by the excessive pressure/lack of protection, the QB/RB exchanges I have witnesses are more on the RB's, and there have been a couple of bad snaps that get charged to the QB as well.

Moreno has 1 in 244 touches
Ball has 3 in 97 touches
Hilliman has 2 in 52 touches
Manning has 10 in 524 touches(Pass attempts + sacks + rushes)

For the backs I defined touches as rushing attempts + receptions.

Moreno has a fumble ratio of 1 out of every 244
Ball has a fumble ratio of 1 out of every 32 touches
Hilliman has a fumble ratio of 1 out of every 2
Manning has a fumble ratio of 1 every 52 touches(if you charge him with every fumble as opposed to accurately assessing blame).


Fumbles lost is harder to gauge because it more times than not it has as much to do with a lucky bounce.

Fumbles Lost: P.Manning 6, M.Ball 3, T.Holliday 2, E.Decker 1, D.Trevathan 1, R.Hillman 1, W.Welker 1, T.Carter 1 Total: 16

Hillman fumbles 1 out of every 2 touches. LOL. Your math is a LOT off there. He fumbles once every 26 touches

[AllThings18]

Hillman fumbles 1 out of every 2 touches. LOL. Your math is a LOT off there. He fumbles once every 26 touches

It's not my math that was off it's my POS wireless keyboard that doesn't work as well as it needs to. Sometimes it stutters, and sometimes it leaves off a letter/number.

So as you can see earlier in the post I have 2 out of 52 for Hillman, which is 1 out of 26. So thanks.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

It's not my math that was off it's my POS wireless keyboard that doesn't work as well as it needs to. Sometimes it stutters, and sometimes it leaves off a letter/number.

So as you can see earlier in the post I have 2 out of 52 for Hillman, which is 1 out of 26. So thanks.

Oh, ok.

If Hillman really did fumble every 2 touches, I hope he'd be on the streets.

[Dzone]

Jesus wept
I see what you did there...the shortest verse in the bible...witty...not every0ne got the joke. lol

[Joel]

That post wasn't that long and needed to be made: AVERAGES aren't skewed by one team running a lot more plays than another—that's the whole point! We need a big enough sample one huge datapoint doesn't blow the whole average, but it's not like some teams call 1000 plays/year and some call 100; the variance is relatively small. It helps that there's not much opportunity for a huge datapoint with fumbles, because they're typically Boolean: It's very rare to have multiple fumbles on one play, so it's usually just "did he or didn't he?"

The only potential problem I see with comparing fumble averages is the KIND of plays, because some teams run/pass a lot more than most, and most passers fumble far more than most runners.

[Dzone]

The only potential problem I see with comparing fumble averages is the KIND of plays, because some teams run/pass a lot more than most, and most passers fumble far more than most runners.
Are their more fumbles in ice bowls?

[Hawgdriver]

Yeah, I wonder about that too.

[Dzone]

Top 10 coldest games in NFL history
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/09000d5d824da7dd

[Dzone]

Ok, the guy on foxsports just said that Peyton Manning is the second worst cold weather qb. The worst? Mike Vick...Interesting that both played in domes

[Joel]

Are their more fumbles in ice bowls?
I would expect there to be less, since there tends to be passing and passers usually fumble more due to strip-sacks and scrambles, but I couldn't say. The Ice Bowl box score says there were a total of 6 fumbles, 3 lost. That's the same number as the SB V "Blunder Bowl," but all save one of those was lost (and there were 6 Ints as well.) Temperature at kickoff: 59°.

[Ravage!!!]

Ok, the guy on foxsports just said that Peyton Manning is the second worst cold weather qb. The worst? Mike Vick...Interesting that both played in domes

YeaH... But that is going off the records of W-L. Meaning, have you see Flacco's stats for the games he "won?" Other than this last season, his stats in the playoffs were HORRIBLE, but his defense won the games. Manning has never had that kind of defense....nor needed it.

[Dean]

After watching Peyton's 397 yards and 4 TDs, he didn't seem to be hindered by the cold. I don't think he will be scrutinized by the Titans or their fans. :elefant:

[topscribe]

Peyton Manning in his postgame interview with Dave Logan (KOA radio) on the
critics regarding hiis performance in cold weather: "Whoever wrote that can stick
it where the sun don't shine."

Way to go, Peyton! :salute:
.

[Dean]

He certainly is a silver tongued devil.