Bottom Line, the Defense Lost us that game, not Peyton and not the Offense

[artie_dale]

24 point lead at the half, give up 21 points in the 3rd quarter to a team that is throwing IN TO THE WIND! Even blame Del Rio, the defensive coach.

I believe that Peyton Manning doesn't like the cold. I also believe that he is a better QB in the cold than a lot of other QB's when they play in the cold (especially those who aren't used to it, just like Peyton). But, maybe Peyton is so good in good weather that it looks way worse than it actually is when he does play in the cold. he still had two TD passes for geez sakes! When our backs were against the wall, Peyton threw a great TD pass IN TO THE WIND. So, I believe he can still win in the cold.

Peyton didn't let NE score 21 pts. And I refuse to believe that Peyton is 100% responsible for the offensive play calling. I believe he has faith in Gase & Del Rio (and Fox) and he has to give them the benefit of the doubt sometimes (otherwise, what's the point of them being there?). The Offense was too conservative too often for my taste, but because the run was working so well, why would they go away from it???

Kudos to NE for making 2nd half adjustments (the exact approach we had against KC which was -- Brady getting rid of the ball within 1.5 to 2.5 seconds). It didn't allow our pass rush to pressure him and of out all the games, it had to be that one that the NE WRs caught every damn thing (in the 2nd half) off of timing routes. Not easy in the cold with 20 mph winds (and they did it going IN TO THE WIND.. F'n Defense).

I love our defense and I love the talent on our defense. I'm just not sure why Jack Del Rio hasn't figured out the best way to get them playing well for an entire game. Either I'm naive and my expectations are too high because our defensive players really aren't that good. OR, Del Rio just isn't the answer to getting these guys playing to their potential. I'm still not sure.

[Mike]

Outside of 1 drive the offense did shit. The defense was the reason we were up 24. The offense didn't get it done, the defense had a bad quarter (in large part due to losing two critical players). The coaches just flat out shit the bed. You know that NE isn't going to lay down and take it, they are going to start syncing. With a 24 point lead, all the offense has to do is sustain some drives and not turn the ball over. They failed on both counts.

[Northman]

The defense provided 7 pts off a turnover, then two more TO's put the offense on a short field. The defense is NOT to blame for what happened in that game. The defense at times this year had their faults but not against the Pats. Thats just absurd.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The defense provided 7 pts off a turnover, then two more TO's put the offense on a short field. The defense is NOT to blame for what happened in that game. The defense at times this year had their faults but not against the Pats. Thats just absurd.

I totally agree

[artie_dale]

HOLY CRAP! Are you guy SERIOUS?!?!? Hey, the defense played great in the first half. They really did.... BUT THEY ARE WHO GAVE UP 28 POINTS IN JUST OVER A QUARTER.... WITH THE WIND TO THEIR BACKS!

Ran the ball to control the clock. It worked. But again, the offense did not give up a 24 point lead. How big of a lead does a defense need?????

[Dapper Dan]

This is insane.

[topscribe]

The defense provided 7 pts off a turnover, then two more TO's put the offense on a short field. The defense is NOT to blame for what happened in that game. The defense at times this year had their faults but not against the Pats. Thats just absurd.
The defense was given two short fields. You don't do that against Brady.
But when DRC and Vickerson went out, that did weaken the defense.
Brady went to town after that -- in the third quarter. But the defense
seemed to adjust and stiffened in the fourth and in OT.

That is a good defense (Denver's) if they can keep people healthy.
.

[BroncoNut]

Artie Dale, it makes me sick to know that I sent you a care package.

[Dapper Dan]

Our offense had 3 drives in the 3rd quarter. How did they end?

Fumble

Punt

Interception


Yeah, the offense really helped out there.

[artie_dale]

Are you telling me that the Defense can sit across from the offense and say "Hey guys, a 24 point lead isn't enough. We need more points if you want us to hold the other team to win."

[Dapper Dan]

Are you telling me that the Defense can sit across from the offense and say "Hey guys, a 24 point lead isn't enough. We need more points if you want us to hold the other team to win."

The defense helped create that lead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When your offense turns the ball over and doesn't sustain drives, it hurts the defense.

[topscribe]

Our offense had 3 drives in the 3rd quarter. How did they end?

Fumble

Punt

Interception


Yeah, the offense really helped out there.
Denver's offense went into a funk in the third quarter, and NE's shifted into
overdrive. What would one expect to happen from that against Tom Brady?
.

[Lancane]

This is a joke right? The defense was pimp slapping the hell out of New England the entirety of the first half, especially during that first quarter while the offense struggled to sustain even a semblance of a solid offensive drive give one. For the quarter and a half that followed the offense couldn't do a damn thing still, but it was Del Rio who went from and aggressive defensive gameplan and switched to a more conservative gameplan soon after the third score and he continued that into the third quarter thinking it was working, but Belichick isn't a dumb coach and neither is McDaniels they laid a trap for Del Rio, making him believe that his planning was effective and to be complacent, then boom. Del Rio should have switched back to an aggressive defensive gameplan immediately after the half to try and extend the lead before allowing a level of complacency that was detrimental to the outcome of the game, especially knowing the offense was limited and not able to sustain even a drive of mediocrity. The loss to New England just like Kansas City's loss to us the week before is proof of why conservative football doesn't lead to championships.

[Mike]

Are you telling me that the Defense can sit across from the offense and say "Hey guys, a 24 point lead isn't enough. We need more points if you want us to hold the other team to win."

No. But the defense can say, how about all the points on the board are because of us. You haven't done shit all game. All we need is for you to hold on the damn ball, sustain some drives, and maybe put up a few more points.

Brady is too good a QB and Gronk is too good a TE (even better against a defense notorious for sucking against TEs) to hold down for long. Giving them shortened fields is a one-way ticket to a butt-whoopin.

I am really surprised that anyone can watch that game and feel that the offense did anything all game. Moreno came to play, but they never took advantage of it with Manning sucking ass and the OC not utilizing play action...so his great game amounted to nothing.

[topscribe]

No. But the defense can say, how about all the points on the board are because of us. You haven't done shit all game. All we need is for you to hold on the damn ball, sustain some drives, and maybe put up a few more points.

Brady is too good a QB and Gronk is too good a TE (even better against a defense notorious for sucking against TEs) to hold down for long. Giving them shortened fields is a one-way ticket to a butt-whoopin.

I am really surprised that anyone can watch that game and feel that the offense did anything all game. Moreno came to play, but they never took advantage of it with Manning sucking ass and the OC not utilizing play action...so his great game amounted to nothing.
I agree on the play-action. With Moreno trucking the defense and probably
the best play-action QB in the game, where was the play-action? :confused:
.

[embeeteeay]

The defense provided 7 pts off a turnover, then two more TO's put the offense on a short field. The defense is NOT to blame for what happened in that game. The defense at times this year had their faults but not against the Pats. Thats just absurd.

I'm glad a couple of you Denver fans said this. Other than run the ball well (in part because NE kept their two safeties way back, inviting the run) and a few very good passes
by Manning, the Denver offense played miles below their season average, while the defense created those three huge turnovers in the first quarter.

[silkamilkamonico]

this could quite possibly be the dumbest thread i have ever seen.

congratulations to you artie dale.

[embeeteeay]

HOLY CRAP! Are you guy SERIOUS?!?!? Hey, the defense played great in the first half. They really did.... BUT THEY ARE WHO GAVE UP 28 POINTS IN JUST OVER A QUARTER.... WITH THE WIND TO THEIR BACKS!

Ran the ball to control the clock. It worked. But again, the offense did not give up a 24 point lead. How big of a lead does a defense need?????

Credit Tom Brady on that one. Did you see the fire in his eyes and the mustard on his throws, despite the wind?

[Ravage!!!]

I think the defense allowing 31 points in a regulation half absolutely calls to be a HUGE blame for this game. DOn't let the Patriot fans, that love to pile on Manning for everything, jump in on this. The defense gave up 31 points in regulation. They didn't stop SHIT in the second half.

Now I'm not taking the blame OFF the offense, because we need to get back to Manning throwing the damn ball rather than this running 30+ times a game. That's two games in a row, against the two toughest opponents of the season, and we've GONE AWAY from what we had been doing all year....why?

[Ravage!!!]

Credit Tom Brady on that one. Did you see the fire in his eyes and the mustard on his throws, despite the wind?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[LawDog]

Credit Tom Brady on that one. Did you see the fire in his eyes and the mustard on his throws, despite the wind?

Did you see the fire in the eyes and mustard on pinpoint throws that Manning had in the final TD drive to tie the game at 31 apiece?

[Ravage!!!]

Did you see the fire in the eyes and mustard on pinpoint throws that Manning had in the final TD drive to tie the game at 31 apiece?

He didn't seem to have the "fire in his eyes " on the last 4 offensive possessions they had to win the game.

[topscribe]

He didn't seem to have the "fire in his eyes " on the last 4 offensive possessions they had to win the game.
Not to mention how confused and resigned he looked in the first half . . .
.

[artie_dale]

Our offense had 3 drives in the 3rd quarter. How did they end?

Fumble

Punt

Interception


Yeah, the offense really helped out there.

Alright, I'll admit the offense sure didn't make it easy for the defense in the 3rd quarter. And absolutely the defense deserves the majority of credit in the first half. They set the tone. But, to expect an offense, ANY OFFENSE, to not stumble in that kind of weather... is it not reasonable that they did? Also, does Peyton and the offense not deserve credit for threading those drive extending passes into Jacob Tamme? Nearly every single one of those, the defender was right on Tamme's back (mad kudos to Tamme). The NE Defense played us tough and tight, and in tough, tough weather. Definitely a fumble & INT are never acceptable, but a punt happens and is supposed to happen.

[MasterShake]

The Defense also played well enough once we tied the game to take us well into overtime in a sudden death situation. If not for that muffed punt we at worst end in a tie or get a game winning field goal attempt.

[LawDog]

He didn't seem to have the "fire in his eyes " on the last 4 offensive possessions they had to win the game.

And Brady did?

Plus, remember the context for my comment - I was responding to mbta's brady ballwashing post.

[artie_dale]

And also, what if the NE Defense just played us that well? They all were all over our RCVRs. They basically laid the red carpet down for us to run. Once the NE offense made it's adjustments after the half (Brady getting rid of the ball quickly), they carved our defense up. And yes, the defense did step it up when it was too late in order to take us deep into OT.

Belichek is supposed to be the defensive guru. He was ready for our Peyton Manning ran offense. He had a game plan to shut down the pass at the expense of our run, and they did and the numbers prove it. I just can't put all the blame on the offense or on Peyton.

[jhildebrand]

Denver's last 9 possessions ended in:
punt
fumble
punt
interception
punt
touchdown
punt
punt
punt

Some of those left the D with a short field. A D that basically spotted the O a 24 point cushion. The D gave the O the ball back for what could have been game winning drives multiple times. The D did their job.

I just dont see how this is the D's fault! :noidea:

[jhildebrand]

If I were to blame the D for anything I would blame the coaching staff for failing to make some easy adjustments. But that goes for adjustments on O as well!

[Lancane]

I just dont see how this is the D's fault! :noidea

Because it's not, the fault rests on Del Rio and the coaching staff.

[Buff]

Denver's last 9 possessions ended in:
punt
fumble
punt
interception
punt
touchdown
punt
punt
punt

Some of those left the D with a short field. A D that basically spotted the O a 24 point cushion. The D gave the O the ball bacl for what could have been game winning drives multiple times. The D did their job.

I just dont see how this is the D's fault! :noidea

^ This... And only this.

[jhildebrand]

Super Bowl teams are that because they can play "their" game while taking away their opponents strength. They can stick to their offense even if the defense and everybody in the stands knows what they are doing and still execute. The 97 and 98 Bronco teams were that way. That hasn't changed. When you have a $20 million QB and no plan B, I would expect to see a better 9 possessions. Yes Moreno had a great game. However, when the wind was at Denver's back, they needed to play to their strengths which is letting Manning throw the ball. That is how they finally tied the game and that was against the wind. Sometimes this team, players and coaches, appear to operate as though they are preordained to win. This was one of those games. I don't get how they didn't adjust to some rather easy scenarios.

[Northman]

HOLY CRAP! Are you guy SERIOUS?!?!? Hey, the defense played great in the first half. They really did.... BUT THEY ARE WHO GAVE UP 28 POINTS IN JUST OVER A QUARTER.... WITH THE WIND TO THEIR BACKS!

Ran the ball to control the clock. It worked. But again, the offense did not give up a 24 point lead. How big of a lead does a defense need?????


And yet our #1 offense floundered in the same weather as the Pats. The defense can only do so much so when the defense spots you 17 pts and holds a team scoreless for a entire half you better do more than turn it over 3 times in the second half to ALLOW the opposing offense to get back in the game.

[Northman]

The defense was given two short fields. You don't do that against Brady.
But when DRC and Vickerson went out, that did weaken the defense.
Brady went to town after that -- in the third quarter. But the defense
seemed to adjust and stiffened in the fourth and in OT.

That is a good defense (Denver's) if they can keep people healthy.
.

Exactly.

Its not like we have the 2000 Ravens defense here so when they actually step up it would be nice if the offense could do what they need to do to keep the pressure on the opposing team.

[Northman]

I think the defense allowing 31 points in a regulation half absolutely calls to be a HUGE blame for this game.

I dont, no one would know better than the Pats what 3 turnovers can do to a defense with its back against the wall. Our offense is supposed to be the bread and butter of this team and where most of the weight should be carried. When your defense actually steps up and puts the opposing team in a deep hole that should benefit an offense. Turning the ball back over a number of times would let ANY team back in a game.

[Northman]

But, to expect an offense, ANY OFFENSE, to not stumble in that kind of weather... is it not reasonable that they did?

Didnt stop Brady for throwing over 300 yds in that same weather so no, not a great example there. The fact we had 224 yds rushing from Moreno makes the woes of the offense even more of a problem that we couldnt score more in the second half.

[MOtorboat]

I'm choosing to look at it, as such:

Despite the passing offense looking bad and the defense disappearing in the 3rd quarter, Denver lost by three, late in overtime on the road to the best team in football the last 15 years.

It's OK everyone...put down the cyanide.

[Northman]

I'm choosing to look at it, as such:

Despite the passing offense looking bad and the defense disappearing in the 3rd quarter, Denver lost by three, late in overtime on the road to the best team in football the last 15 years.

It's OK everyone...put down the cyanide.


Ok, everyone stop discussing the game. MO has spoken.

[MOtorboat]

Ok, everyone stop discussing the game. MO has spoken.

Exactly.

[Lancane]

I'm choosing to look at it, as such:

Despite the passing offense looking bad and the defense disappearing in the 3rd quarter, Denver lost by three, late in overtime on the road to the best team in football the last 15 years.

It's OK everyone...put down the cyanide.

They haven't been the best team in football for a few years now despite winning the AFC crown in two years ago, but I still concur that they are among the upper echelon - what bothers me is that if we can't even handle them in the regular season when we have a 24 point lead, what will happen in the post-season when they are at their best and the chances of facing them to get to the championship is about 40% and that is simply based on statistics, when in reality it's more like 75%.

[jhildebrand]

I'm choosing to look at it, as such:

Despite the passing offense looking bad and the defense disappearing in the 3rd quarter, Denver lost by three, late in overtime on the road to the best team in football the last 15 years.

It's OK everyone...put down the cyanide.

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is this NE team is less than a shell of its former self. It is the Broncos and Manning's nemesis. At some point you need to 'exorcise your demons' for long term success and it was there on a silver platter with a 24-0 cushion.

[artie_dale]

Didnt stop Brady for throwing over 300 yds in that same weather so no, not a great example there. The fact we had 224 yds rushing from Moreno makes the woes of the offense even more of a problem that we couldnt score more in the second half.

Threw for over 300 yds against who? And Tom Brady's offense did stumble in the first half.

[MOtorboat]

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is this NE team is less than a shell of its former self. It is the Broncos and Manning's nemesis. At some point you need to 'exorcise your demons' for long term success and it was there on a silver platter with a 24-0 cushion.

Bah to "Demons."

Denver has only lost the last three to New England, only one was a playoff game, and two were with Tebow at quarterback.

They just lost on the road in crazy weather in overtime. That's it. Nothing more.

[Lancane]

Threw for over 300 yrs against who? And Tom Brady's offense did stumble in the first half.

Did stumble is the key phrase, once Del Rio switched to a conservative defensive gameplan the blueprint for victory was set in place and the Patriots executed a flawless plan of attack against our conservative defense and bumbling, yet conservative offense at the start of the second quarter and didn't relent. Had Del Rio switched back to an aggressive defensive gameplan at the start of the third quarter we'd likely be singing a different tune right now despite the woes of the offense Sunday night.

[Mike]

I'm choosing to look at it, as such:

Despite the passing offense looking bad and the defense disappearing in the 3rd quarter, Denver lost by three, late in overtime on the road to the best team in football the last 15 years.

It's OK everyone...put down the cyanide.

It isn't a big deal to me. It was more eye-opening and reality setting in than anything. At least now I know where to set my expectations going forward. Denver is a good team, a very good team in the right environment, but they are not a team that I expect to win in a tough environment. I do think they have a good shot at winning out and clinching the #1 seed. So there is hope. But I will hope for a mild January/February too.

I won't color this turd though. It was a turd all-around. It was great to see Moreno's toughness though and for Miller to look close to form.

[Lancane]

Bah to "Demons."

Denver has only lost the last three to New England, only one was a playoff game, and two were with Tebow at quarterback.

They just lost on the road in crazy weather in overtime. That's it. Nothing more.

Fox has only won against them once I believe in all the years he faced them, the last time we beat them was when McDaniels was the HC, Orton was the QB and we ran about the wildest gameplan in recent memory to confuse Belichick. Shanahan was the last Broncos coach to have a winning record vs Belichick, since then we don't seem to have what it takes to win, even when the score is 24-0 at halftime...can you say Kryptonite, reminds me of Shanahan vs Manning's Colts.

[artie_dale]

Bah to "Demons."

Denver has only lost the last three to New England, only one was a playoff game, and two were with Tebow at quarterback.

They just lost on the road in crazy weather in overtime. That's it. Nothing more.

MO, your perspective is refreshing and somewhat healing. You are very right.

[Joel]

Outside of 1 drive the offense did shit. The defense was the reason we were up 24. The offense didn't get it done, the defense had a bad quarter (in large part due to losing two critical players). The coaches just flat out shit the bed. You know that NE isn't going to lay down and take it, they are going to start syncing. With a 24 point lead, all the offense has to do is sustain some drives and not turn the ball over. They failed on both counts.
Only objections:

1) The OFFENSE didn't fail; Moreno had his best pro game (by far) and carried that team on his back until it snapped (almost literally.) His backups were crap, but the real issue is Manning going 19/36 for 150 yds with 2 TDs and a pick thrown behind Decker. Not only Eli but, even now, ARCHIE Manning could probably do better.

2) For complaints about offfensive playcalling, see the preceding. If one dislikes the defensive playcalling in the second half, that's one thing (though the points about missing starters apply there, too; it took the D a whole quarter to compensate for their casulaties, but by halfway through the fourth, they did, and Brady never managed so much as a FG drive thereafter.) In terms of our "conservative" offensive playcalls, they weren't McCoys and Foxs any more than McCoys in September or Del Rios before last month.

Fox and Del Rio are defensive coaches; we all know who calls most of the offense, because we see him jumping around and doing it right up until the snap before each and every one of them.

GENERALLY his playcalls are correct, right down to the 3rd and long run against Baltimore in last years playoff; he couldn't throw reliably that day either (though he was roughly twice as good as Sunday,) and even if he had, the risk of an incomplete giving them the ball with >1:00 was too great when all our D had to do was keep them from driving the field for a TD for just 0:40. Defense DID lose that game, though PFM helped by doing NOTHING in a full OT, just as he did NOTHING in a full OT Sunday (actually, Sunday was better: He didn't gift them the ball in FG range this time—our return team did it for him.)

I will say I wish he'd mixed it up Sunday with more first down throws and second down runs rather than doing the opposite on EVERY series. There was ONE time an unbroken runs got us a first down or two and Manning called a pass when they completely sold out on stopping it—dead ball foul at the snap killed the play and revealed what it was; so long, element of surprise.

The playcalling and pass execution after the third turnover was dubious, too; either pass or don't, but don't call a SINGLE pass play, take a sack instead of throwing it away, then never pass again. Moreno and Ball actually gained 45 yds on 8 runs from New England 44, but intead of finishing one yard deep in the endzone the 7 yd run at the end put us on the 9 for a FG thanks to the sack. Stick with the run and we score (there was only one time they stopped us for a SINGLE negative yard, from their 5; two runs from their 6 against that beat up front four is probably a TD, or at least close enough to go for and get it on 4th and G.) Or throw a second pass when that's pretty much the only shot on 3rd and G from the 16, just don't force it or take a(nother sack.)

Manning just looked completely off all night; the D went cold in the third quarters, and Ball had the fumble that got him benched then after a strong first half (including the 3rd and long screen where he WILLED a conversion that led to a TD,) but Manning only looked decent on a single drive to tie it in the fourth. The rest of the time he looked like Ponder or Gabbert.


I agree on the play-action. With Moreno trucking the defense and probably
the best play-action QB in the game, where was the play-action? :confused:
.
Ask the best play action QB in the game; he calls practicallly all offensive plays, usually three or four times per down, and at the line. My theory: He noticed he was barely completing half his passes, to receivers who had to jump and dive for balls to even have a chance, so he knew running to establish the pass wouldn't work this time since he couldn't pass whether it was established or not. I'm not saying you're wrong, because he had to know he'd HAVE to pass sooner or later (when you establish the run THAT well, they sell out on stopping it: That's the point.) He had to pass sooner or later, so should've done it in favorable conditions.

[Joel]

I think the defense allowing 31 points in a regulation half absolutely calls to be a HUGE blame for this game. DOn't let the Patriot fans, that love to pile on Manning for everything, jump in on this. The defense gave up 31 points in regulation. They didn't stop SHIT in the second half.

Now I'm not taking the blame OFF the offense, because we need to get back to Manning throwing the damn ball rather than this running 30+ times a game. That's two games in a row, against the two toughest opponents of the season, and we've GONE AWAY from what we had been doing all year....why?
In the first game, because we were playing a team that lead the league in sacks (by a wide margin) and had a couple studs in the secondary, but ranked in the BOTTOM ten against the run. In the second game, because Manning couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and Moreno was running for >220 yds and 6 yds/carry. If we had more than one decent RB out of FOUR we win that game by at least two scores. Instead: Ball gives them a TD, Manning gives them another, and suddenly they only need 17 offensive points (not 31) to take a TD lead after being down 24. They also had a nice kick return to near midfield to help.

19/36, 150 yds, 2 TDs and an Int: Just how desperate are we to excuse one of the worst pro games Manning ever played. I haven't checked (because I don't want to dig through a decade and a half of regular and postseason game logs) but wouldn't be surprised if those are the WORST numbers of ANY pro game he's EVERY played.


And also, what if the NE Defense just played us that well? They all were all over our RCVRs. They basically laid the red carpet down for us to run. Once the NE offense made it's adjustments after the half (Brady getting rid of the ball quickly), they carved our defense up. And yes, the defense did step it up when it was too late in order to take us deep into OT.

Belichek is supposed to be the defensive guru. He was ready for our Peyton Manning ran offense. He had a game plan to shut down the pass at the expense of our run, and they did and the numbers prove it. I just can't put all the blame on the offense or on Peyton.
No offense, but: Bull.

Their top THREE CBs were playing hurt (actually, I think one didn't play AT ALL, and the best, Talib, left during the OT: PFM STILL couldn't get a pass to Thomas he didn't have to jump for.)

They STARTED a couple rookie scrubs at BOTH DT spots, and, IIRC, started another replacement at LDE.

They had yet ANOTHER replacement for Jerod Mayo, who's out for the year at LB. Not only that, but after starting a coverage LB they quickly switched to a run stuffer weak in coverage when Moreno and Ball ran all over them.

Yet.... 19/36 for 150 yds, 2 TDs and a pick thrown behind Decker. We had a MASSIVE edge in every aspect of that game except 1) kick returns and 2) QB.

Receiving: DT, Welker, Decker, Tamme and even Moreno>Edelman, Amendola, Vereen and a Gronk with three separate injuries. Two Pro Bowlers vs. one beat up Pro Bowler

Line: Second string LT>third string RT. We blew them off the ball all night and only gave up two sack to their three. Advantage: Denver.

Front four: Wolfe, Knighton, Vickerson/Williams and Phillips>Chandler Jones, a pair of rookie scrubs and Ninkovich. They had to compensate for Big Vicks loss, but did so by the fourth.

LBs: Former DRoY, Woodyard and Trevathan>Hightower, Spikes and Collins/Fletcher. A possible HoFer and two great coverage LBs vs. a second year guy and decent Mike: Advantage, us. Again.

Secondary: DRC/Webster/Jammer, Harris, Jammer/Webster, Ihenacho and Adams>injured Talib, injured Arrington, McCourty and Harmon (Dennard didn't even play.) Not even close.

RB: Moreno and (in the first half) Ball>(in the first half) Ridley, Bolden and Vereen. By roughly 2:1

Despite HUGE advantages at EVERY position (except in the wretched return game that turned a near certain tie into an irretrievable loss) PFM couldn't even do HALF as well as Brady.

Somehow that's on the D that giftwrapped 17 pts for him HALFWAY THROUGH THE FIRST QUARTER? At WORST they broke even by allowing 14 pts in exchange for the 17 they scored; the reality is that still leaves them 3 pts ahead, and it would probably be 7 (enough to win in regulation) if Manning hadn't eaten a sack on 2nd and G from the 6. After the D gave us the ball at the NE 44 we ran for 45 yds yet—somehow—wound up on their 9 instead of in the end zone. Either ride Moreno and Ball to the endzone, zing 'em with a TD pass in two tries or at least throw it away to avoid the sack so they can run it in from the 6.

Manning BLEW it, dude. Even with the best game of Morenos career plus 40 yds from Ball, the offense only managed TWO scores on their own in FIVE quarters. And Manning needed a huge third down catch and run from Ball to keep the first of THOSE drives alive long enough for him to hit Tamme (the only one he hit >4 times) for the TD. He had ONE good drive of his own, good enough for the tie after our awful D spotted him 17 pts, but not enough to win, even with their Swiss cheese D, great blocking and two Pro Bowl WRs. Maybe that's not enough for PFM to win, but he's never had more, and never will.


Bah to "Demons."

Denver has only lost the last three to New England, only one was a playoff game, and two were with Tebow at quarterback.

They just lost on the road in crazy weather in overtime. That's it. Nothing more.
I stopped after "Denver has only lost the last three to NE." In the long list of bad arguments, that's gotta be near the top.

[MOtorboat]

9-2. First place in the AFC.

Suck on that for awhile.

[artie_dale]

No offense, but: Bull.

Their top THREE CBs were playing hurt (actually, I think one didn't play AT ALL, and the best, Talib, left during the OT: PFM STILL couldn't get a pass to Thomas he didn't have to jump for.)

They STARTED a couple rookie scrubs at BOTH DT spots, and, IIRC, started another replacement at LDE.

They had yet ANOTHER replacement for Jerod Mayo, who's out for the year at LB. Not only that, but after starting a coverage LB they quickly switched to a run stuffer weak in coverage when Moreno and Ball ran all over them.

Yet.... 19/36 for 150 yds, 2 TDs and a pick thrown behind Decker. We had a MASSIVE edge in every aspect of that game except 1) kick returns and 2) QB.

Receiving: DT, Welker, Decker, Tamme and even Moreno>Edelman, Amendola, Vereen and a Gronk with three separate injuries. Two Pro Bowlers vs. one beat up Pro Bowler

Line: Second string LT>third string RT. We blew them off the ball all night and only gave up one sack to their three. Advantage: Denver.

Front four: Wolfe, Knighton, Vickerson/Williams and Phillips>Chandler Jones, a pair of rookie scrubs and Ninkovich. They had to compensate for Big Vicks loss, but did so by the fourth.

LBs: Former DRoY, Woodyard and Trevathan>Hightower, Spikes and Collins/Fletcher. A possible HoFer and two great coverage LBs vs. a second year guy and decent Mike: Advantage, us. Again.

Secondary: DRC/Webster/Jammer, Harris, Jammer/Webster, Ihenacho and Adams>injured Talib, injured Arrington, McCourty and Harmon (Dennard didn't even play.) Not even close.

RB: Moreno and (in the first half) Ball>(in the first half) Ridley, Bolden and Vereen. By roughly 2:1

Despite HUGE advantages at EVERY position (except in the wretched return game that turned a near certain tie into an irretrievable loss) PFM couldn't even do HALF as well as Brady.

Somehow that's on the D that giftwrapped 17 pts for him HALFWAY THROUGH THE FIRST QUARTER? At WORST they broke even by allowing 14 pts in exchange for the 17 they scored; the reality is that still leaves them 3 pts ahead, and it would probably be 7 (enough to win in regulation) if Manning hadn't eaten a sack on 2nd and G from the 6. After the D gave us the ball at the NE 44 we ran for 45 yds yet—somehow—wound up on their 9 instead of in the end zone. Either ride Moreno and Ball to the endzone, zing 'em with a TD pass in two tries or at least throw it away to avoid the sack so they can run it in from the 6.

Manning BLEW it, dude. Even with the best game of Morenos career plus 40 yds from Ball, the offense only managed TWO scores on their own in FIVE quarters. And Manning needed a huge third down catch and run from Ball to keep the first of THOSE drives alive long enough for him to hit Tamme (the only one he hit >4 times) for the TD. He had ONE good drive of his own, good enough for the tie after our awful D spotted him 17 pts, but not enough to win, even with their Swiss cheese D, great blocking and two Pro Bowl WRs. Maybe that's not enough for PFM to win, but he's never had more, and never will.

That's the problem. You compare Brady to Manning using the final results of the game.

In the beginning, the Denver Broncos wanted to keep the Pats off the field by controlling the clock. The run worked. It was productive. There was no reason to go away from it.
Our defense was outstanding in the beginning causing multiple fumbles, which our offense turned in to points in the first half.
The offense didn't have to throw it, they were up 24 - zip at the half, just keep doing what they were doing. It's working.

2nd half comes around, Broncos choose to rcv.
Broncos' offense sees no reason to worry yet, so they keep running to control the tempo and the clock (they had a huge lead). Boom, turnover happens (fumble) and Pats take advantage. Uh oh, tempo tides changing?
Pats revamp offensive strategy, Brady gets rid of ball much faster via timing routes, which eliminates our what was effective pass rush.
NE Defense stops Broncos, Broncos punt with wind at their back, Pats get ball, drive down field, another Touch Down, tempo has been officially swung.
NE's Defense stops Broncos offense again via turnover, Patriots take advantage.
NE's defense forces Den to punt again (into the wind), Pats drive nearly the full field, score AGAIN.

yaddy, yadda yadda.

Brady stumbled big time in the first half, he even fumbled the ball. By the time it was time for Peyton to do what Peyton does, the Pats were already steam rolling, the Broncos' backs were against he wall, and Peyton drove down the field to tie the game up. The tempo had been swung, and the Pats did it by taking advantage of two turnovers as well as driving the length of the field IN TO THE WIND. The conservative approach wasn't doing it any more, and Tom Brady threw for over 300 yards against our Defense, damn near ALL in the 2nd half.

If anything, I now think the coaching gets the majority of the blame for not putting their foot on the gas the whole time.

[Northman]

Threw for over 300 yds against who? And Tom Brady's offense did stumble in the first half.

Yes, stumbled because our defense was knocking the crap out of him.

[Dzone]

How many Manning passes were dropped? What would have happened if they had not ...another thing that makes you wonder what if

[Joel]

That's the problem. You compare Brady to Manning using the final results of the game.
Er, what? I said the 17-21 pts the D giftwrapped for us halfway through the first quarterspecific drives, but, despite running for 45 yds from their 45, settled for a 26 yd FG thanks to Mannings sack. I then noted the offense only managed two scores on its own the whole rest of the game, one on a drive Ball kept alive with a HUGE catch and run on third and long. How is that "only using the final results"? Want me to link the play-by-play? Here: http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331124017&period=0 Feel free to cite each defensive screw up.


In the beginning, the Denver Broncos wanted to keep the Pats off the field by controlling the clock. The run worked. It was productive. There was no reason to go away from it.
Our defense was outstanding in the beginning causing multiple fumbles, which our offense turned in to points in the first half.
The offense didn't have to throw it, they were up 24 - zip at the half, just keep doing what they were doing. It's working.

2nd half comes around, Broncos choose to rcv.
Broncos' offense sees no reason to worry yet, so they keep running to control the tempo and the clock (they had a huge lead). Boom, turnover happens (fumble) and Pats take advantage. Uh oh, tempo tides changing?
Pats revamp offensive strategy, Brady gets rid of ball much faster via timing routes, which eliminates our what was effective pass rush.
NE Defense stops Broncos, Broncos punt with wind at their back, Pats get ball, drive down field, another Touch Down, tempo has been officially swung.
NE's Defense stops Broncos offense again via turnover, Patriots take advantage.
NE's defense forces Den to punt again (into the wind), Pats drive nearly the full field, score AGAIN.

yaddy, yadda yadda.

Brady stumbled big time in the first half, he even fumbled the ball. By the time it was time for Peyton to do what Peyton does, the Pats were already steam rolling, the Broncos' backs were against he wall, and Peyton drove down the field to tie the game up. The tempo had been swung, and the Pats did it by taking advantage of two turnovers as well as driving the length of the field IN TO THE WIND. The conservative approach wasn't doing it any more, and Tom Brady threw for over 300 yards against our Defense, damn near ALL in the 2nd half.

If anything, I now think the coaching gets the majority of the blame for not putting their foot on the gas the whole time.
NEW ENGLAND (NOT us) chose to receive in the second half, and without DRC they quickly marched downfield for a TD.

No big deal; they were still down three scores and time was on our side—then Ball fumbled the ball to them in easy scoring range and they marched in for another TD on the short field.

Still, annoying more than devastating; we still led by two scores and had the ball back. Manning had a good 3rd and 5 pass for 17 yds to get us to our 37, but after Moreno ran for 5 yds, then none, Manning flat out dropped the ball (though it was recorded as a sack,) fell on it and we punted all the way to New Englands 35.

Now we're in trouble, and it only takes NE 1:42 to drive 65 yds on our tiring undermanned D and pull within a FG. STILL, we led, and had the ball back; all we need is a nice solid TD drive to reestablish control.

After a Moreno and Anderson run net us a first down, Manning throws a ball behind Decker but straight to third string CB Logan Ryan, and NE only needs 30 yds for the go ahead TD.

EVEN NOW we can regain the lead with a TD drive, so we promptly—go three-and-out, then punt to OUR 41. By the grace of God, the D somehow allows NE just 34 yds and forces a FG, but now we trail by 7.

FINALLY Manning musters his ONE decent drive in the game and ties it, then (apparently) goes home. D forces another three-and-out; PFM is 1/5 for 8 yds (Morenos got the only first down) and we go to OT.

We get the ball: Moreno and Ball get us 32 yds on 3 carries to the NE 48, but Mannings only completion is from an illegal pick by Decker; PFM goes 0/2 and we punt.

D gives up 19 yds before forcing a punt; Moreno and Anderson get us 34 yds on 6 carries (and Moreno gets his bone bruise in the process) and Manning's 2/3 for 16, but instead of running into FG range from the NE 37 he calls a pass, which he misses, and after a Delay of Game penalty we pin them deep.

D forces gives up 23 yds before forcing a punt which should guarantee us AT LEAST a tie: There's just 3:01 left and they only have 2 TOs in OT, so if we manage even ONE first down against their exhausted, banged up and useless run D we just KEEP running till we're either in FG range or the game ends in a tie—except the return team muffs the punt and NE recovers in range for an easy FG: Game over.

Again, feel free to explain how ANY of that is the defenses fault.

Only ONCE did NE "drive nearly the full field," on that second half opening drive (despite our supposedly choosing to receive the second half kick) Otherwise, their LONGEST drive was 65 yds from their 35 (hardly "the full field") and HALF the TD drives started <33 yds from our goal line. The FG drive started on OUR 47, but our awful D stopped them at our 13 after an 8:00 drive (note: THAT'S how ball control with the lead looks) and never let them score again. The drive chart alone shows that much.

Again, I looked and am looking at FAR more than just the final result. It doesn't show what you evidently think it does.

[Joel]

How many Manning passes were dropped? What would have happened if they had not ...another thing that makes you wonder what if
How many were dropped when WRs had to do a high jump to reach them, and how many more were out of the reach of even that? How many were dirtballs they had to dig off the turf? My personal favorite as one of the late Tamme catches that prompted a Gameday poster to say he was sure it was a pick. Yes, our WRs normally catch several of those balls, but let's not pretend they were dropping easy ones left and right.

[artie_dale]

Er, what? I said the 17-21 pts the D giftwrapped for us halfway through the first quarterspecific drives, but, despite running for 45 yds from their 45, settled for a 26 yd FG thanks to Mannings sack. I then noted the offense only managed two scores on its own the whole rest of the game, one on a drive Ball kept alive with a HUGE catch and run on third and long. How is that "only using the final results"? Want me to link the play-by-play? Here: http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331124017&period=0 Feel free to cite each defensive screw up.


NEW ENGLAND (NOT us) chose to receive in the second half, and without DRC they quickly marched downfield for a TD.

No big deal; they were still down three scores and time was on our side—then Ball fumbled the ball to them in easy scoring range and they marched in for another TD on the short field.

Still, annoying more than devastating; we still led by two scores and had the ball back. Manning had a good 3rd and 5 pass for 17 yds to get us to our 37, but after Moreno ran for 5 yds, then none, Manning flat out dropped the ball (though it was recorded as a sack,) fell on it and we punted all the way to New Englands 35.

Now we're in trouble, and it only takes NE 1:42 to drive 65 yds on our tiring undermanned D and pull within a FG. STILL, we led, and had the ball back; all we need is a nice solid TD drive to reestablish control.

After a Moreno and Anderson run net us a first down, Manning throws a ball behind Decker but straight to third string CB Logan Ryan, and NE only needs 30 yds for the go ahead TD.

EVEN NOW we can regain the lead with a TD drive, so we promptly—go three-and-out, then punt to OUR 41. By the grace of God, the D somehow allows NE just 34 yds and forces a FG, but now we trail by 7.

FINALLY Manning musters his ONE decent drive in the game and ties it, then (apparently) goes home. D forces another three-and-out; PFM is 1/5 for 8 yds (Morenos got the only first down) and we go to OT.

We get the ball: Moreno and Ball get us 32 yds on 3 carries to the NE 48, but Mannings only completion is from an illegal pick by Decker; PFM goes 0/2 and we punt.

D gives up 19 yds before forcing a punt; Moreno and Anderson get us 34 yds on 6 carries (and Moreno gets his bone bruise in the process) and Manning's 2/3 for 16, but instead of running into FG range from the NE 37 he calls a pass, which he misses, and after a Delay of Game penalty we pin them deep.

D forces gives up 23 yds before forcing a punt which should guarantee us AT LEAST a tie: There's just 3:01 left and they only have 2 TOs in OT, so if we manage even ONE first down against their exhausted, banged up and useless run D we just KEEP running till we're either in FG range or the game ends in a tie—except the return team muffs the punt and NE recovers in range for an easy FG: Game over.

Again, feel free to explain how ANY of that is the defenses fault.

Only ONCE did NE "drive nearly the full field," on that second half opening drive (despite our supposedly choosing to receive the second half kick) Otherwise, their LONGEST drive was 65 yds from their 35 (hardly "the full field") and HALF the TD drives started <33 yds from our goal line. The FG drive started on OUR 47, but our awful D stopped them at our 13 after an 8:00 drive (note: THAT'S how ball control with the lead looks) and never let them score again. The drive chart alone shows that much.

Again, I looked and am looking at FAR more than just the final result. It doesn't show what you evidently think it does.

Both D's were undermanned, and yet they (NE) aren't given credit for having a good game plan against Manning and still Manning gets the blame. And when our D has an injured player, it's not their fault for falling a part?

Coaches to blame, more so than Manning.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes, stumbled because our defense was knocking the crap out of him.

Not the second half they weren't. They disappeared until late in the 4th, just like our offense.

[Dapper Dan]

Not the second half they weren't. They disappeared until late in the 4th, just like our offense.

Did MO really sleep through the 2nd half? It could be his fault.

[MOtorboat]

Did MO really sleep through the 2nd half? It could be his fault.

No. No, I did not. I slept through the second quarter of one of our wins earlier this season.

[Dapper Dan]

No. No, I did not. I slept through the second quarter of one of our wins earlier this season.

Can anyone confirm this?

[Buff]

Did MO really sleep through the 2nd half? It could be his fault.

We are still in the midst of an internal investigation and are not at liberty to comment at this time. All I can say is that we're looking into it.

[MOtorboat]

Can anyone confirm this?

No.

[bcbronc]

Bottom line, Manning played like shit. Always too simplistic to lay all the blame on 1 guy, and there was more to it than just Manning. But fact still is, other than one drive he played like shit. Blame the weather if you like, but Brady was throw darts, while Peyton was wafting farts.

Very frustrating loss. Need a convincing outdoor performance from Manning next week for my own mental wellness.

[Joel]

No. No, I did not. I slept through the second quarter of one of our wins earlier this season.
So you actually DON'T watch the games? Thou hypocrite; first pluck the beam from thine own eye. :tongue:

[zbeg]

My takeaway from this game is that there were 11 fumbles in this game between the two teams.

Fumble recoveries are essentially random. There's been shown no ability for teams to demonstrate an actual skill in recovering the football once it hits the turf. (Not fumbling is a skill, but recovery isn't.) Vegas bookmakers know this, and they're staking hundreds of millions of dollars on this knowledge.

So what happened is that we had 11 coinflips for possession of the football in this game. 6 by the Patriots, 5 by the Broncos. That's going to cause some incredible swings when you have such high leverage coinflips. I don't know how much we learned about either team in that regard. It's just not something I'm going to get worked up over, especially since the Broncos are realistically looking at a 14-2 season.

The team is likely going to win 13 or 14 games this year. Yeah the game Sunday sucked, but that's hardly cause to jump off a ledge.

[Joel]

Vegas bookmakers don't play the odds, they SET the odds so equal numbers bet both sides and they take the vig from both while paying the winner with the losers money so they profit WHOEVER wins. They don't CARE who wins as long as the "book" balances. Statistically determining that a given probability is a pick 'em doesn't help them a bit.

Regardless, I don't think most of us are upset about our relative success recovering our own or opponent fumbles, but about committing them in the first place, which, as you note, is a function of talent, skill, training and practice at least as much as of luck. It comes down to coaching, whether it's failure to teach ball handling (and turnover forcing) fundamentals or failure to bench/cut guys who refuse to learn.

[embeeteeay]

Not to mention how confused and resigned he looked in the first half . . .
.

HaHa. I think the second half and the Pats resurgence are proof enough that what you thought was confusion and resignation was actually determination and resolve!

Stop embarrassing yourself.

[embeeteeay]

Bottom line, Manning played like shit. Always too simplistic to lay all the blame on 1 guy, and there was more to it than just Manning. But fact still is, other than one drive he played like shit. Blame the weather if you like, but Brady was throw darts, while Peyton was wafting farts.

Very frustrating loss. Need a convincing outdoor performance from Manning next week for my own mental wellness.

Great way to sum it all up.

[zbeg]

Vegas bookmakers don't play the odds, they SET the odds so equal numbers bet both sides and they take the vig from both while paying the winner with the losers money so they profit WHOEVER wins. They don't CARE who wins as long as the "book" balances. Statistically determining that a given probability is a pick 'em doesn't help them a bit.


That's a bit of a myth. Often they set the line where they know they're going to get public action on the wrong side, accept that some professional money is going to go on the favored side, and the books are essentially backing one side or the other, knowing the money is coming in on the wrong side.

[Slick]

For me, the killer in that game was Ball's fumble. We all knew New England wasn't going to lay down. So they come out of the gate in the 3rd quarter and drive the length of the field, against the wind, and score a touchdown making it 24-7.

Then, we're with the wind, we need to answer to stem the momentum (if you believe in momentum as it pertains to sports. I certainly do.). We get a first down or two, looking like we will at least sustain a drive, and Ball fumbled. Heads went down, Peyton got that look on his face, and the Patriots capitalized.

The fumble didn't cost us the game, but it certainly was a horrible time to cough up the ball. Had we answered their opening drive of the 3rd quarter with at least a FG, I believe the outcome would have been different. The defense stiffened up in the 4th quarter and overtime. Despite the 3rd quarter crap fest, the offense still had plenty of opportunities and didn't do much with them.


I hate it for Montee too. It looks like the game is starting to slow down for him. He had some good runs spelling Moreno, and that 30 yard screen pass on 3rd and 20 was fabulous. His ball security issues are a serious bummer, he was starting to show that he was absolutely our number 2 RB and we desparately need him.

[Dapper Dan]

That FG in overtime pretty much sealed the deal. That sucked.

[Joel]

That FG in overtime pretty much sealed the deal. That sucked.
No kidding. Lousy no good defense forcing punts on every drive of a full OT.... :mad:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Are you telling me that the Defense can sit across from the offense and say "Hey guys, a 24 point lead isn't enough. We need more points if you want us to hold the other team to win."

You do realize the Pats got half their points off of turnovers, right?

[Dapper Dan]

You do realize the Pats got half their points off of turnovers, right?

But they got ALL of their points against the defense. Oh! What now? I'm just kidding.

[jhildebrand]

That FG in overtime pretty much sealed the deal. That sucked.

That play may have iced the game for the Pats!

[Dapper Dan]

That play may have iced the game for the Pats!

I think it pretty much put the nail in the coffin.

[LawDog]

I think we were still in it until the kick sailed between the uprights.

[Dapper Dan]

I think we were still in it until the kick sailed between the uprights.

True. That's when the fat lady sang.

[Simple Jaded]

Two words, Trindon Welker.

[jhildebrand]

I wish I was good with photoshop and pictures. I would do a TrindON photo of him running one back. I would do a TrindOFF of him fumbling.

I suppose you could do the Trindon HoliDAY and have him running one back during the day and Trindon Holinight and him running one back at night.

[jhildebrand]

Two words, Trindon Welker.

Trindon Weldecker

[Simple Jaded]

Trindon Weldecker

Peydon WelDecker.

[LawDog]

Trindon Weldecker
Montondon Weldeckering

[Simple Jaded]

WesPeyDon BallDecker

[jhildebrand]

Montondon Weldeckeringrioball

[Simple Jaded]

WesPeyDon DelWoodBallDecker.

[artie_dale]

You do realize the Pats got half their points off of turnovers, right?

So did our Offense. So if anything, NE's defense deserves the most credit BECAUSE THEY PLAYED THE WHOLE GAME!

[capt. Jack]

This is getting pretty funny!

[jhildebrand]

BECAUSE THEY PLAYED THE WHOLE GAME!

How did it come to pass that the Pats recovered a fumble on a punt?? :confused:

Or to put it another way, why were the Patriots punting LATE in overtime when Tony Carter fumbled?

[Broncolingus]

24 point lead at the half, give up 21 points in the 3rd quarter to a team that is throwing IN TO THE WIND! Even blame Del Rio, the defensive coach.

I believe that Peyton Manning doesn't like the cold. I also believe that he is a better QB in the cold than a lot of other QB's when they play in the cold (especially those who aren't used to it, just like Peyton). But, maybe Peyton is so good in good weather that it looks way worse than it actually is when he does play in the cold. he still had two TD passes for geez sakes! When our backs were against the wall, Peyton threw a great TD pass IN TO THE WIND. So, I believe he can still win in the cold.

Peyton didn't let NE score 21 pts. And I refuse to believe that Peyton is 100% responsible for the offensive play calling. I believe he has faith in Gase & Del Rio (and Fox) and he has to give them the benefit of the doubt sometimes (otherwise, what's the point of them being there?). The Offense was too conservative too often for my taste, but because the run was working so well, why would they go away from it???

Kudos to NE for making 2nd half adjustments (the exact approach we had against KC which was -- Brady getting rid of the ball within 1.5 to 2.5 seconds). It didn't allow our pass rush to pressure him and of out all the games, it had to be that one that the NE WRs caught every damn thing (in the 2nd half) off of timing routes. Not easy in the cold with 20 mph winds (and they did it going IN TO THE WIND.. F'n Defense).

I love our defense and I love the talent on our defense. I'm just not sure why Jack Del Rio hasn't figured out the best way to get them playing well for an entire game. Either I'm naive and my expectations are too high because our defensive players really aren't that good. OR, Del Rio just isn't the answer to getting these guys playing to their potential. I'm still not sure.

I think Denver lost as a team (players and coaches) and one can't really fault a specific...

That said, I think it's pretty much fact now Peyton just isn't the same (stellar) QB outside in the cold as he is inside when it's warmy and pretty...

...and (unfortunately) teams that blow 24-point leads don't win championships.

Of course, anything can happen, sure, but...

JMO...

[artie_dale]

I think Denver lost as a team (players and coaches) and one can't really fault a specific...

That said, I think it's pretty much fact now Peyton just isn't the same (stellar) QB outside in the cold as he is inside when it's warmy and pretty...

...and (unfortunately) teams that blow 24-point leads don't win championships.

Of course, anything can happen, sure, but...

JMO...

The majority of Super Bowl winners in all of the Super Bowl era, were not considered the best teams in the league for those seasons. Ravens lost like 5 of their last 6 games. Giants lost 4 of their last 5, a lot of them were wild cards. So, for Denver to stumble this way, I'm not too, too worried. They show the flashes of greatness. It's just a matter of whether they pull it all together when it matters most. I do believe that if Denver is going to win a Super Bowl this year, the whole team will have to step it up and not leave it up to just Peyton.

[Bayern Bronco]

Brand new user here, so go easy bros.

Couple things I wanted to add:

1. I am concerned about the defense. They played lights out in the first half but came out flat in the second until the end. I get it that there were injuries. But, Pats scored on 5 successive possessions. How are we a super bowl contending team with these performances? Someone posted earlier "how many points does the defense need to be spotted to win the game?" Can anyone recollect a super bowl winner who let other offenses score so easily? What is the old saying, defenses win championships?

2. Pats receivers were getting big time separation. It was just pitch and catch for Brady. It wasn't like every throw he did was a miracle and everything Manning threw was a wobbler. Pats DB's were all over our receivers, they couldn't get any separation. I don't understand why we didn't do more play-action and screens though if Manning has a harder time in the cold.

3. Manning didn't have the best performance but even with him not having his best night, he made good decisions and didn't blow it. Brady and Manning both turned it over. Tough conditions to play in. When Manning had to deliver to force OT, he did.

4. I would rather have a loss now to NE in the regular season. Maybe, if we get to face them again in the playoffs the anger, sting, embarrassment will be more of a motivator to get it done in the playoffs and not lose to them again.

5. I think a big coaching decision was to try to keep Brady OFF the field rather than our high powered fast paced offense going. Clock management by pounding the rock.

6. I am not too worried by the loss. I would rather find the problems now and fix them before the playoffs.

Just my .02 worth.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Show me a historic comeback and I'll show you a crucial turnover. It happened last year when the Broncos were down 24-0 at San Diego. Tony Carter and Chris Harris each scored off turnovers.

It happened against the Patriots. The Broncos don't lose if Montee Ball doesn't fumble, if Peyton Manning doesn't throw an interception, if Tony Carter doesn't run into the punt.

Underplayed was Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie's injury on the last play of the first half. The secondary leaked in the second half but think about it. They were playing without Rodgers-Cromartie for the whole second half, Rahim Moore for the first time this season, and Champ Bailey for the ninth time. That's a ton of talent missing.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_24605427/broncos-mailbag-whats-wrong-peyton-manning-denver

[embeeteeay]

The majority of Super Bowl winners in all of the Super Bowl era, were not considered the best teams in the league for those seasons. Ravens lost like 5 of their last 6 games. Giants lost 4 of their last 5, a lot of them were wild cards. So, for Denver to stumble this way, I'm not too, too worried. They show the flashes of greatness. It's just a matter of whether they pull it all together when it matters most. I do believe that if Denver is going to win a Super Bowl this year, the whole team will have to step it up and not leave it up to just Peyton.

I agree with you in principle. Sunday's loss is one game and doesn't mean for one minute that Denver can't win a SB this season. To some, the bitter disappointment of Sunday's loss just makes it feel that way, but I wouldn't rule out a Broncos' appearance in the title game. I don't happen to believe that they could win, however, with this game being being played outdoors in the Northeast in February, unless by some fluke of nature, the night turns out to be unusually warm for February, say climbing to mid-30s and no wind.

[embeeteeay]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_24605427/broncos-mailbag-whats-wrong-peyton-manning-denver

Feel good article, but what Kris fails to explain as he grasps for reasons why Denver lost is this....

Last I checked, Peyton Manning was torching his opponents with a completion percentage of roughly 70%. What did he do Sunday? Wasn't it 15-20 % points lower than his average? Wasn't that the primary reason that Denver was unable to protect its early lead? If Brady had performed at a similar level, we could chalk it all up to the elements and give Manning a pass. But, fact is, Brady completed 68% of his throws, under the exact same conditions.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Feel good article, but what Kris fails to explain as he grasps for reasons why Denver lost is this....

Last I checked, Peyton Manning was torching his opponents with a completion percentage of roughly 70%. What did he do Sunday? Wasn't it 15-20 % points lower than his average? Wasn't that the primary reason that Denver was unable to protect its early lead? If Brady had performed at a similar level, we could chalk it all up to the elements and give Manning a pass. But, fact is, Brady completed 68% of his throws, under the exact same conditions.

Peyton Manning was torching his opponents before the ankle injuries - in case you have not heard, he is far from 100%. That is why the offensive game plan was heavy with running plays.

[embeeteeay]

Peyton Manning was torching his opponents before the ankle injuries - in case you have not heard, he is far from 100%. That is why the offensive game plan was heavy with running plays.

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see. If he continues to throw at a 52% rate, you'll have a point.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see. If he continues to throw at a 52% rate, you'll have a point.

Or if the ankles heal, he will, once again, have a higher percentage. Also, dropped passes do not help a QB's rating.

[Lancane]

Peyton Manning was torching his opponents before the ankle injuries - in case you have not heard, he is far from 100%. That is why the offensive game plan was heavy with running plays.

Carol, I would say you have a point but his ankles were a concern the week before if I am not mistaken, when he was 24/40 for 323 yards through the air with one touchdown and zero interceptions. Denver still ran for over a hundred yards that day, but the passing game didn't suffer on the same level as it did against a depleted New England squad this past Sunday, so unless his ankles suddenly took a turn for the worst...then I have to agree with Embeeteeay.

[gregbroncs]

HOLY CRAP! Are you guy SERIOUS?!?!? Hey, the defense played great in the first half. They really did.... BUT THEY ARE WHO GAVE UP 28 POINTS IN JUST OVER A QUARTER.... WITH THE WIND TO THEIR BACKS!

Ran the ball to control the clock. It worked. But again, the offense did not give up a 24 point lead. How big of a lead does a defense need?????Maybe they need an offense and special teams that does not turn the ball over repeatedly in the 2nd half.
The offense and special teams take all the blame for that game.

[embeeteeay]

Or if the ankles heal, he will, once again, have a higher percentage. Also, dropped passes do not help a QB's rating.

1. Manning's ankle injuries date back at least three weeks, so how were his stats in the previous two games?
2. Manning was up and bouncing on his feet from the get-go on Sunday, so I can't believe the ankles were any major issue in his performance.
3. Do you really think you need to explain to a NE fan how dropped passes affect QB rating and completion %, given all that Brady has endured with a crop on new WRs this season?

And finally, are you really saying that that Manning's Sunday performance was due to his ankle injuries, rather than the elements? It would seem so.

[Lancane]

Am I the only one or one of the select few who find it ironic that the blame is being spread-out whether then shouldered by the one who holds the most blame? Del Rio? Chris Harris (AKA) Tony Carter according to Klis holds the blame, Wes Welker holds the blame, Peyton Manning holds the blame, the Defense holds the blame, no it's injuries that hold the blame...this speaks of the toughness both physically and mentally of this team or lack thereof. Despite the injuries Denver still fielded a more complete roster till the very end of the contest, Manning struggled and he holds some blame but not enough to be heralded for the loss, he did enough to be up 24-0 at the half - that doesn't allow him to shoulder the blame despite his factual struggles in such weather. Welker made a very minor mistake as did Harris, it happens but in reality they were put in a position that they should have not been in to begin with, and if not for the defense the Broncos would have in accordance with statisticians and the stats not even in the game for most of the contest.

Del Rio holds the most blame, he faced a coaching genius and fell into the most obvious trap in all of coaching...complacency, pure fool-hearted complacency and he continuously played not to lose instead of to win after they were up by three scores rather then making sure they put the game away. That is not until the last half quarter of the fourth period and then as I've stated it was a little to late to come to the party, one in fact that Denver had no excuse to be in because most teams don't blow a twenty-four point deficit, especially when you're facing a team that despite everything is the top seed in their individual conference. I've said before that at times the coaches in Denver from Fox on down are a bit more conservative at times when the game calls for something else and Del Rio showed that weakness on national television. Proof is in the pudding though, look at the scores of the games we've played thus far this year, they've allowed most teams to hang in there with them and the only reason we're 9-2 is because of Peyton Manning and the passing offense, negate that and we're lucky if we're 7-4, of the close games we've played the Broncos are 2-2 that is horrible for a championship capable team.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos are 9-2 Cane, thanks for jinxing them.

[Northman]

I dont really hold Del Rio more responsible here. The turnovers in the second half by the players is more to blame, not too mention i actually hold Manning more accountable in a sense that he's been to the big game, been in bigger situations than Del Rio has ever faced so to expect a DC who was really a subpar HC to a higher standard than the 90 million dollar man isnt really in the cards for me. To be honest, even if Fox was there i think he would of been the same exact way as Del Rio in terms of playcalling with a 24-0 lead. While there are certainly other things to lay down at the coaches feet the brunt of his loss is totally on the offense and Manning who should show far more moxie and determination to beat one of his biggest rivals with a large lead. Add in the turnovers in the second half and its just a recipe for disaster. Any idiot would of known that BB and Brady would make adjustments so it was up to the offense to protect the ball and get a couple of more scores to salt away the game. They failed.

[Lancane]

The Broncos are 9-2 Cane, thanks for jinxing them.

Shush....:lol:

[Lancane]

I dont really hold Del Rio more responsible here. The turnovers in the second half by the players is more to blame, not too mention i actually hold Manning more accountable in a sense that he's been to the big game, been in bigger situations than Del Rio has ever faced so to expect a DC who was really a subpar HC to a higher standard than the 90 million dollar man isnt really in the cards for me. To be honest, even if Fox was there i think he would of been the same exact way as Del Rio in terms of playcalling with a 24-0 lead. While there are certainly other things to lay down at the coaches feet the brunt of his loss is totally on the offense and Manning who should show far more moxie and determination to beat one of his biggest rivals with a large lead. Add in the turnovers in the second half and its just a recipe for disaster. Any idiot would of known that BB and Brady would make adjustments so it was up to the offense to protect the ball and get a couple of more scores to salt away the game. They failed.

And that speaks a lot to the coaching staff's ever endearing nature of switching to a conservative based gameplan once they hold the lead. Look at our schedule North, even the Jaguars hung in there with this team, most teams that score 24 or more points on a weekly basis win more then lose, yet we've won simply because the high powered nature of the passing game. Ravens 27, Giants 23, Raiders 21, Eagles 20, Jaguars 19, Colts 39, Redskins 21 before the bye-week, the F'n Jaguars held us at this point to our lowest offensive output at that part in the season...not to mention they are the only team at that point that didn't score twenty or more points against us, then San Diego 20, Chiefs 17 and Patriots 34, the Chargers then held us to our lowest NFL total thus far of the season since the Jaguars. Our defense has been missing for a lot of the season with the safe-play, conservative defensive gameplanning which is on Del Rio, suddenly we're seeing flashes but then after we're in a comfortable spot he switches back, how is Del Rio not responsible, he plans in accordance to how he and Fox coach, the only side that neither controls is the offense, the reason we have the record we do.

[Northman]

And that speaks a lot to the coaching staff's ever endearing nature of switching to a conservative based gameplan once they hold the lead. Look at our schedule North, even the Jaguars hung in there with this team, most teams that score 24 or more points on a weekly basis win more then lose, yet we've won simply because the high powered nature of the passing game. Ravens 27, Giants 23, Raiders 21, Eagles 20, Jaguars 19, Colts 39, Redskins 21 before the bye-week, the F'n Jaguars held us at this point to our lowest offensive output at that part in the season...not to mention they are the only team at that point that didn't score twenty or more points against us, then San Diego 20, Chiefs 17 and Patriots 34, the Chargers then held us to our lowest NFL total thus far of the season since the Jaguars. Our defense has been missing for a lot of the season with the safe-play, conservative defensive gameplanning which is on Del Rio, suddenly we're seeing flashes but then after we're in a comfortable spot he switches back, how is Del Rio not responsible, he plans in accordance to how he and Fox coach, the only side that neither controls is the offense, the reason we have the record we do.

But the problem is its not Del Rio's fault that Ball fumbles or that Manning and the offense cant sustain drives. The defense can only do so much man and when your offense is supposed to be the bread and butter of the team and the main engine that drives it and yet they fail to step up when they need too it would break any defense's back. We could of had the 2000 Ravens defense out there but turning it over like that would create problems for even them. Just cant do it. Our defense is not all world so when they step up above and beyond its up to the offense to carry their weight as well and not get sloppy and complacent. If Del Rio had just come out and forced Manning to throw the ball more than he did it could of turned out far worse with turnovers. We were succeeding with running the ball it was when we started coughing it up that lead to the quicker comeback by NE.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The game plan in the second half would have been fine if we wouldn't have turned the ball over.

[Lancane]

The game plan in the second half would have been fine if we wouldn't have turned the ball over.

Ask the Ravens what happens when you go with a conservative defensive gameplan when your offense is struggling! Do you think they won the Super Bowl being aggressive or by being conservative on the defensive side of the ball? I don't give a **** about having a Top 10 Defense, I'm fine with a Bend Don't Break Defensive Philosophy to be honest, but the fact remains that allowing a soft defense to not lose the game instead of being aggressive tends to lead to disaster. Yes, the offense had an off day, they couldn't get crap done, but thanks to the early turnovers the Broncos had the lead, not to mention they allowed 31 points in two quarters. Sometimes it is the job of the defense to save the offenses' ***, especially after the offense has been saving the Defenses' ***es all season long.

[Elevation inc]

24 point lead at the half, give up 21 points in the 3rd quarter to a team that is throwing IN TO THE WIND! Even blame Del Rio, the defensive coach.

I believe that Peyton Manning doesn't like the cold. I also believe that he is a better QB in the cold than a lot of other QB's when they play in the cold (especially those who aren't used to it, just like Peyton). But, maybe Peyton is so good in good weather that it looks way worse than it actually is when he does play in the cold. he still had two TD passes for geez sakes! When our backs were against the wall, Peyton threw a great TD pass IN TO THE WIND. So, I believe he can still win in the cold.

Peyton didn't let NE score 21 pts. And I refuse to believe that Peyton is 100% responsible for the offensive play calling. I believe he has faith in Gase & Del Rio (and Fox) and he has to give them the benefit of the doubt sometimes (otherwise, what's the point of them being there?). The Offense was too conservative too often for my taste, but because the run was working so well, why would they go away from it???

Kudos to NE for making 2nd half adjustments (the exact approach we had against KC which was -- Brady getting rid of the ball within 1.5 to 2.5 seconds). It didn't allow our pass rush to pressure him and of out all the games, it had to be that one that the NE WRs caught every damn thing (in the 2nd half) off of timing routes. Not easy in the cold with 20 mph winds (and they did it going IN TO THE WIND.. F'n Defense).

I love our defense and I love the talent on our defense. I'm just not sure why Jack Del Rio hasn't figured out the best way to get them playing well for an entire game. Either I'm naive and my expectations are too high because our defensive players really aren't that good. OR, Del Rio just isn't the answer to getting these guys playing to their potential. I'm still not sure.


defense clamped down in the 4th and OT to give us a chance don't forget we forced punts in OT, and we were getting the ball back with 2 min left, it was poor coaching that lost us the game after halftime by stopping the pressure on Brady, and not opening the offense up, some crappy injuries, and a stupid bounce.....

[Simple Jaded]

On the bright side, we got to see why Osweiler chose football over basketball on NE's FG attempt. Billy Hoyle.