Knowshon Moreno's bruised leg bone, fumbles by backups have Broncos concerned

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Knowshon Moreno walked into the Broncos' locker room Monday, a crutch nestled in his right armpit. Behind him came the kids, C.J. Anderson, Montee Ball and Ronnie Hillman, like a string of ducklings following their mother.

It's wild to think that a year ago Moreno was looking more and more like a first-round bust, that three months ago, Hillman, who's been inactive for the team's past four games, was listed as the starter going into the season opener. From the outset this fall, Moreno rose above his younger teammates, the clear starter in front of three-man chaos.

Who'd fumble today: Hillman? Ball? Even Anderson got in on the fun at New England on Sunday night.


rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24601111/backfield-motion

[Ravage!!!]

Personally, I'm a bit tired of the NFL trend to sit a player after a fumble. Seems to be the "new thing" now, a player fumbles and he's "in the dog house" and on the bench. I was GLAD when the Patriots benched their best runner because of a fumble, and I'm sure it did NOT upset the Patriots to see us pull Ball out of the lineup once Moreno was limping around. I think its a stupid idea. Pulling the player doesn't bring back the fumble you lost.

Its time we get these young players ball carries. Moreno was a beat against NE Sunday night, no doubt about it. But he feels he needs to come out after getting a 13 yrd rush, AND, he doesn't have a top gear in regards to speed. Ball is a rookie that needs to get the experience, because we WILL need him.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Moreno carried the ball 37 times, and they said towards the end of the game, he had been playing hurt. I have NO problem with him coming out after a 13 yard carry. He more than did his part in the game.

[Ravage!!!]

Moreno carried the ball 37 times, and they said towards the end of the game, he had been playing hurt. I have NO problem with him coming out after a 13 yard carry. He more than did his part in the game.

Carol... quit being so defensive. I'm not talking at the end of the game when he was hurting. I'm talking in general.

[topscribe]

Personally, I'm a bit tired of the NFL trend to sit a player after a fumble. Seems to be the "new thing" now, a player fumbles and he's "in the dog house" and on the bench. I was GLAD when the Patriots benched their best runner because of a fumble, and I'm sure it did NOT upset the Patriots to see us pull Ball out of the lineup once Moreno was limping around. I think its a stupid idea. Pulling the player doesn't bring back the fumble you lost.

Its time we get these young players ball carries. Moreno was a beat against NE Sunday night, no doubt about it. But he feels he needs to come out after getting a 13 yrd rush, AND, he doesn't have a top gear in regards to speed. Ball is a rookie that needs to get the experience, because we WILL need him.
I thought it was a bad, bad move to bench Ball. He was playing with
confidence and authority and had the spurt that Anderson does not have
and was disappearing from Moreno as he wore down.
.

[Ravage!!!]

I thought it was a bad, bad move to bench Ball. He was playing with
confidence and authority and had the spurt that Anderson does not have
and was disappearing from Moreno as he wore down.
.

Not to mention, having a kid that has a total of 7 carries in the lineup, not to mention 0 experiene with game time situations with this team, and against the patriots on this big game? Just seems like a TERRIBLE time to keep your 2nd RB on the bench when the #1 guys is obviously hurting.

But its not just Denver. Seems you fumble, you are benched. It didn't "hurt" our team that Ridley was out.

[Joel]

"I believe that is something that we can fix ourselves. We control that. And so I believe, as we do that, that we take away the one thing that has kind of been our kryptonite, and hopefully it gets a lot better."
So stop hoping and DO IT. Our backs only have one less fumble than Manning has interceptions. Part of that's because Manning is very accurate, reads defenses very well and didn't imprint on that Favrian "my laser, rocket, arm can thread a needle between Champ Bailey and Night Train Lane" crap that afflicts so many QBs today. But a lot of it's because Ball and Hillman have fumbled a lot this year. One key advantage of running, a reason teams do it to salt away wins, is that it's MUCH (~3X) safer than passing. Except, in Denver it's about the same.

When a guy's fumbling every 20 touches, you bet he'll sit. Every 75 isn't much better, but if I MUST pick, I'll take it. The bigger issue is why do we have FOUR RBs but only ONE (maybe two) who don't hand opponents the ball in FG range every game or two? If you have 5-6 WRs ALL constantly dropping balls and running ragged routes, should you fire them, or the receivers coach? Speaking of which, why do the two big WRs we drafted never fight for balls or beat jams, but the 5'9" 185 lb. guy we DIDN'T draft DOES?

When a team has all the talent and more to win titles, but can't beat anyone with a winning record, I stop looking at the roster and start looking at the staff.

[topscribe]

When a team has all the talent and more to win titles, but can't beat anyone with a winning record, I stop looking at the roster and start looking at the staff.
That has entered my mind . . .
.

[Lancane]

Better question is with such an effective running game as the Broncos have had so far and especially Sunday - why the hell weren't the Broncos running any bootlegs to open up the passing game, especially when they were playing with the wind on their side?

[topscribe]

Better question is with such an effective running game as the Broncos have had so far and especially Sunday - why the hell weren't the Broncos running any bootlegs to open up the passing game, especially when they were playing with the wind on their side?
I think a lot of that might have had to do with Manning's ankles. On healthy
ankles, I can picture them possibly trying that . . .
.

[Lancane]

I think a lot of that might have had to do with Manning's ankles. On healthy
ankles, I can picture them possibly trying that . . .
.

Plausible, but at some point you have to try to do anything to generate something in some cases. A couple successful bootlegs could have caused New England to abandon their defensive gameplan well enough for Denver's offense to breath some new life on the field. But this is the problem with conservative football, it always allows the opposition a chance to get back into the game and a coach should never run a conservative offense or defense in the first or third quarter. I'd rather have gunslinger mentality based offense looking to light it up and an aggressive 'Bend don't Break' defense then a stout conservative offense or for that matter cautious defense willing to allow offenses or defenses any sort of rhythmic semblance on the field.

[Joel]

Better question is with such an effective running game as the Broncos have had so far and especially Sunday - why the hell weren't the Broncos running any bootlegs to open up the passing game, especially when they were playing with the wind on their side?
Ask the playcaller; Collinsworth was certainly going on about it a lot. In fairness to Manning though, even in his healthy youth he was never much of a scrambler, bootlegger nor even roll out QB: He's the quintessential pocket passer, and won't leave that security unless forced. If you want a roll out and/or scrambling QB, you need the OTHER Manning (warning: He's has periodic fumbling problems when scrambling.)

Sunday though, I doubt it mattered. He wasn't missing throws from pressure (NE only had one sack:) He was just missing throws. It's irrelevant whether he does that in the pocket or sprinting toward the sideline.

[topscribe]

I just took a peek at the Broncos' opening drive of the game. On the third play,
Manning booted out to the right. He looked more like a healthy duck. Those
ankles are a mess, so the bootleg was out of the question. I did, however,
like jhildebrand's suggestions (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/566118-Broncos-Gameday-Thread-Broncos-vs-Patriots-11-24-13?p=2079181#post2079181) to run a reverse or misdirection a time or two.
I remember that they used to run Terrell Davis out wide with a halfback toss
and let him cut in or out. I've always been in favor of reviving that play. It
might have been wide open in this game and also had an effect in slowing
those DEs down.
.

[Lancane]

Ask the playcaller; Collinsworth was certainly going on about it a lot. In fairness to Manning though, even in his healthy youth he was never much of a scrambler, bootlegger nor even roll out QB: He's the quintessential pocket passer, and won't leave that security unless forced. If you want a roll out and/or scrambling QB, you need the OTHER Manning (warning: He's has periodic fumbling problems when scrambling.)

Sunday though, I doubt it mattered. He wasn't missing throws from pressure (NE only had one sack:) He was just missing throws. It's irrelevant whether he does that in the pocket or sprinting toward the sideline.

But as I stated previously, all it takes is a few successful passes to change the outcome and with the success of the run game, bootlegging is more possible then say when McDaniels tried to run similar plays with Orton and the run game was not even semi productive. Granted that Manning isn't the most mobile of quarterbacks, but then you change the protection to give him the time to run a bootleg - the mere threat could have caused a positive change where the defense would have been iffy by any similar looks.

[slim]

I'm not sure how benching a player that fumbles is a "new thing". :noidea:

[artie_dale]

Yeah, turnovers are just too costly and can easily change the tempo of a game (as was said in another thread). I do wonder though, why we haven't seen more of CJ Anderson. That first game after Hillman was benched, CJ looked awesome. Flashy, quick, and a little explosive. Was there a reason we haven't seen him since (until this last Sunday)?

[CoachChaz]

This team will be happy when they allow CJ to play.

But I agree with the ridiculous fumble benching thing. If it was such a "necessary" thing, AP would have spent the first 3 years of his career on the bench. And oh by the way...AP, Lynch and Charles are among the leaders in fumbles this year. How often do they get benched now?

[slim]

Sigh.

If you are producing like AP, Lynch and Charles you get more leeway. If you are Montee Ball or Ronnie Hillman you get benched.

[CoachChaz]

Sigh.

If you are producing like AP, Lynch and Charles you get more leeway. If you are Montee Ball or Ronnie Hillman you get benched.

If you get 10 carries a game...you'll never produce like AP, Lynch or Charles

[artie_dale]

This team will be happy when they allow CJ to play.

But I agree with the ridiculous fumble benching thing. If it was such a "necessary" thing, AP would have spent the first 3 years of his career on the bench. And oh by the way...AP, Lynch and Charles are among the leaders in fumbles this year. How often do they get benched now?

Knowshon got benched when he had the fumble-idous, and the Knowshon we had last year and the Knowshon we have this year, is the result. So, I don't think it's a bad thing and Knowshon is proof, that if the player has decent character, they can right the ship so long as they work hard at it.

[slim]

If you get 10 carries a game...you'll never produce like AP, Lynch or Charles

You think Montee and Ronnie are at the same level as AP, Lynch and Charles?

I don't think either can produce like that.

[artie_dale]

You think Montee and Ronnie are at the same level as AP, Lynch and Charles?

I don't think either can produce like that.

Yeah, that's a ridiculous comparison. Lynch wasn't know as a fumbler, and while AP & Charles did have fumble issues, they were also breaking long runs for TDs. Hillman & Ball haven't done the latter yet. And Hillman reminds me of Tatum Bell, which is not a good thing. Fast but runs out of gas during breakaways. In other words, doesn't finish. AP, Charles, & Lynch are finishers.

[Joel]

I'm not sure how benching a player that fumbles is a "new thing". :noidea:
I'm certain it's a very old thing.

[slim]

Yeah, that's a ridiculous comparison. Lynch wasn't know as a fumbler, and while AP & Charles did have fumble issues, they were also breaking long runs for TDs. Hillman & Ball haven't done the latter yet. And Hillman reminds me of Tatum Bell, which is not a good thing. Fast but runs out of gas during breakaways. In other words, doesn't finish. AP, Charles, & Lynch are finishers.

Manning has fumbled a lot this year, but he didn't get benched.

I mean, you can't bench your best players but when a marginal player (back up) is turning it over, they aren't going to play.

[Ziggy]

I have no problem with the benching of Ball. He has 3 fumbles in 83 touches, not counting his preseason blunders. That's one turnover per game for a starting RB in the NFL. This team has lost 2 games. In those two games, they have turned the ball over 7 times. As far as I'm concerned the Broncos are unbeatable when they don't turn the ball over until proven otherwise. Holliday needs to be put on the shelf as well.

[Joel]

But as I stated previously, all it takes is a few successful passes to change the outcome and with the success of the run game, bootlegging is more possible then say when McDaniels tried to run similar plays with Orton and the run game was not even semi productive. Granted that Manning isn't the most mobile of quarterbacks, but then you change the protection to give him the time to run a bootleg - the mere threat could have caused a positive change where the defense would have been iffy by any similar looks.
I agree in principle, but the problem wasn't receivers getting open, it was Mannings inability to throw them anything but jump balls and dirtballs. That only gets worse, not better, if we ask an immobile QB to throw on the run with bad ankles. They had all of ONE sack, and receivers got separation downfield (though seldom at the line; my statements of the past week were evidently wrong: Tackling a receiver in the backfield before a screen pass arrives ISN'T Holding NOR PI.) The problem wasn't pressure or coverage, it was crappy passing. Bootlegs, while good in principle, don't make bad passes better.

[slim]

Manning needs to take better care of the ball as well.

[Joel]

This team will be happy when they allow CJ to play.

But I agree with the ridiculous fumble benching thing. If it was such a "necessary" thing, AP would have spent the first 3 years of his career on the bench. And oh by the way...AP, Lynch and Charles are among the leaders in fumbles this year. How often do they get benched now?
Um... didn't Peterson break the single game rushing record his rookie year? Are you trying to say the only thing stopping Ball from doing that is his lack of carries? Maybe if he got, like, 50/game—MAYBE; he'd have to average right at 6 yds/carry even then, and so far he's only averaging a little over HALF that.


Knowshon got benched when he had the fumble-idous, and the Knowshon we had last year and the Knowshon we have this year, is the result. So, I don't think it's a bad thing and Knowshon is proof, that if the player has decent character, they can right the ship so long as they work hard at it.
That may well be a great comparison, but let's try it and see: Bench Ball and we'll talk in 2015—IF the starter gets hurt after fumbling 5 times in 9 games (which is how Moreno got McGahees job. ;))

[Joel]

Manning has fumbled a lot this year, but he didn't get benched.

I mean, you can't bench your best players but when a marginal player (back up) is turning it over, they aren't going to play.
Manning's been strip-sacked three times that I recall off the top of my head (mainly because they were in three straight games, starting with a loss, and cost us points each time.) There's a reason why commentators cite stats like "most fumbles by a NON-QB." Passers tend to fumble more, because of strip sacks, bobbled snaps, losing the ball under an avalanche of sackers, or balls chopped from behind when they scramble. Check the league leaders for fumbles at pretty much any time and most will be QBs.

Also, EVERY fumbled handoff is AUTOMATICALLY charged to the QB, presumably because he has possession last. It doesn't matter if the RB goes up and punches the ball from his hands: Officially, QBs fault. Andersons juggled and dropped handoff Sunday? One of the 2 fumbles charged to Manning; Anderson's listed with none, even though we're talking about benching him for catching Ball and Hillmans fumbling bug.

None of that applies to RBs, and the implication that fumbling every other game (or EVERY game in Balls case) is acceptable in a starting RB is completely untenable.


Manning needs to take better care of the ball as well.
Agreed; how dare he let his LT allow a blindside strip-sack three times (that I recall) or not use a staple gun when handing off to Ball and Anderson? That's HALF his 10 charged fumbles this year, btw. Think there were one or two bad snaps from Ramirez early, too, though I'm not sure if those are charged to the QB or C (by "all fumbled handoffs are automatically the QBs fault" logic they should be on the C, but dunno.)

[topscribe]

Manning has fumbled a lot this year, but he didn't get benched.

I mean, you can't bench your best players but when a marginal player (back up) is turning it over, they aren't going to play.
That's really not a good comparison. Most of Peyton's fumbles have been when
he was trying to pass the ball. Those incidents are on the blockers, not the QB.

I do personally believe they benched Ball too quickly. He was running with
confidence and authority and had a great spurt.
.

[sneakers]

No running back wants to fumble, do you think sitting him is going to make him want to fumble less?

[Broncolingus]

I don't think there was anyone here that didn't know an injury 100% going to happen with the workload that Moreno was putting in that night...

...and I absolutely HATE it for him too because of the way he was playing - particularly his attitude - this year.

The guy deserves a break (no pun intended) from the ****-ing injury bug...

[Slick]

Maybe have a player sit out a series, but to bench him for a game or more just lets the fumble linger in his mind. Then when he finally gets another chance to play, all he is thinking about is the fumble. Sometimes a guy fumbles because of a good hit, not because he is butterfingers, which I think has happened to Ball a couple of times this year.

If we don't have another back step up this year, which Ball was starting to do, we are effed.