It's Finally Time To Move Champ To Safety

[BSN Denver]

3809

The Broncos are one lucky team. They have two all-pro, Hall-of-Fame caliber leaders. Even luckier is that they possess one on each side of the ball. One of them is Super Bowl winning quarterback Peyton Manning and the other is 13 time Pro Bowl cornerback Champ Bailey. The latter of the two should switch positions, to safety.

Bailey is 35 years old and can’t seem to shake the foot injury that has plagued him off and on since August 17th when the Broncos played the Seahawks in the preseason. Champ has played a total of six quarters all season - out of ten games.

Recovering from his injury is not the only thing Champ has been slow at.

Take for instance that the last game, at full health, that he’s played was the January 12th, 2012 divisional playoff matchup against the Baltimore Ravens. In that matchup, he didn’t look at all like the Champ we used to know and got beat all night by Torrey Smith. In other words, the last time we saw Champ in a meaningful game, he was a liability. Even against the Jaguars, this year, he was a shell of himself.

Two players who aren’t liabilities are Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and Chris Harris. Both are not only better players than an aging Champ Bailey, but are grading out as two of the best corners in all of football. Harris is arguably the most underrated player in the league and has seven interceptions over his first three years and he’s picked up a lot of what he’s learned from Bailey. Rodgers-Cromartie has played amazing all season, shutting down the left side of the field and has showed phenomenal speed and agility.

Moving Champ to safety has the potential to help for the future as well....CONTINUE READING (http://www.brandonspano.com/headlines.html?entry=it-s-finally-time-to)

[Ravage!!!]

Maybe, but at the same time, do we trust that he can make the conversion to a position that he has NEVER played before...this point in the season????? How many plays has he diagnosed from that position? We've seen EXPERIENCED safeties make bad reads and reacts...what about a guy that is watching the game through CB eyes? Woodson was as good of a corner as they come, but a TERRIBLE safety. So it doesn't just always come as this "easy transition" that so many seem to believe.

To me, you can't possibly change him at this stage of the season, and then going into next year, we can't afford to keep his salary.

[DenBronx]

Uh oh....lol

[dab]

Champ had an awesome year last year, then one week later he had a bad game. Did he suddenly age over the course of that week? Sure, at this age he heals slower, but I think we need to let him get healthy before we judge him. He obviously came back too soon, meaning he now has to listen to the nay-sayers. My hope is we get him healthy...truly healthy...before the playoffs begin.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Champ had an awesome year last year, then one week later he had a bad game. Did he suddenly age over the course of that week? Sure, at this age he heals slower, but I think we need to let him get healthy before we judge him. He obviously came back too soon, meaning he now has to listen to the nay-sayers. My hope is we get him healthy...truly healthy...before the playoffs begin.

Great post, and welcome to Broncos Forums

[GEM]

Ahhhh shit, Zam has taken over the Spano Network. May God have mercy on your souls!!

[Slick]

I think Champ could be as good as Rod Woodson was when he made the switch, IF, he can get healthy. I'd love to see it. If he decides to hang 'em up, I can respect that too.

[Northman]

I think Champ could be as good as Rod Woodson was when he made the switch, IF, he can get healthy. I'd love to see it. If he decides to hang 'em up, I can respect that too.

Same. I really dont think it would be that much of a problem for him.

[Ravage!!!]

I think Champ could be as good as Rod Woodson was when he made the switch, IF, he can get healthy. I'd love to see it. If he decides to hang 'em up, I can respect that too.

Or he could make the transition like Charles Woodson, which is NOT good.

[MOtorboat]

Switching Champ Bailey to safety will magically heal his foot.

:coffee:

:rolleyes:

[Slick]

Or he could make the transition like Charles Woodson, which is NOT good.

Woodson played excellent in Green Bay when their young corners took over and Woodson was able to be more of a rover and Dom Capers used him that way. Charles Woodson this year on the Raiders, yeah, he hasn't done much.

[Slick]

Switching Champ Bailey to safety will magically heal his foot.

:coffee:

:rolleyes:

Who said that, Mo?

What a dumb post.

[powderaddict]

I would tend to think Champ has the smarts to make the transition fairly smoothly.

DRC, Harris, Webster & even recently Jammer have been playing well at CB. S is now a much bigger need. If Champ is healthy enough to play, put him where he will make the biggest difference. I see that as S, but I'll be happy to see him back in any capacity!

[DenBronx]

I think Champ could be as good as Rod Woodson was when he made the switch, IF, he can get healthy. I'd love to see it. If he decides to hang 'em up, I can respect that too.

Or he could make the transition like Charles Woodson, which is NOT good.


I dont doubt Champs ability to transition but I am more worried that his foot will never be the same. A healthy Champ is really what we need to see first.

[Slick]

I dont doubt Champs ability to transition but I am more worried that his foot will never be the same. A healthy Champ is really what we need to see first.

Absolutely. A safety with all the smarts in the world isn't going to help us if he can't run.

[MOtorboat]

Who said that, Mo?

What a dumb post.

I said that.

This debate, as much as I think it is stupid (and it's pretty ******* stupid), is moot until Bailey's foot is completely healed. He couldn't perform safety duties any better than he could perform cornerback duties, because he's hurt.

[powderaddict]

If Champ is on the field I'm going ahead and assuming he was cleared by the Dr's and ran in practice.

I doubt anyone believes a gimpy Champ who can't run should be on the field.

[Slick]

I said that.

This debate, as much as I think it is stupid (and it's pretty ******* stupid), is moot until Bailey's foot is completely healed. He couldn't perform safety duties any better than he could perform cornerback duties, because he's hurt.

But it's not even a debate. Zam isn't here. We are rational people speculating that a healthy Champ Bailey in the twilight of his career might make a good free safety.

[MOtorboat]

But it's not even a debate. Zam isn't here. We are rational people speculating that a healthy Champ Bailey in the twilight of his career might make a good free safety.

I didn't realize that since my opinion is opposite of the premise of this article, that I was not allowed to voice it.

Next time, a disclaimer would be appreciated on which threads are debates, and which ones are for those who only share the same opinion.

I will back away, and not point out the 10 reasons not to move him, so that you can all discuss moving him without dissention.

[Ravage!!!]

Woodson played excellent in Green Bay when their young corners took over and Woodson was able to be more of a rover and Dom Capers used him that way. Charles Woodson this year on the Raiders, yeah, he hasn't done much.

He wasn't excellent last year, no.

[Slick]

I didn't realize that since my opinion is opposite of the premise of this article, that I was not allowed to voice it.

Next time, a disclaimer would be appreciated on which threads are debates, and which ones are for those who only share the same opinion.

I will back away, and not point out the 10 reasons not to move him, so that you can all discuss moving him without dissention.

Whoa man. Let's not get carried away here.

You made a stupid sarcastic post about him playing safety would magically heal his foot. Nobody said it would, neither did the article. We know he's hurt.

Lighten up brother. We're on the same team here. You think it's a bad move, state your reasons why.

[Slick]

He wasn't excellent last year, no.

He was at one point Rav.

[slim]

I said that.

This debate, as much as I think it is stupid (and it's pretty ******* stupid), is moot until Bailey's foot is completely healed. He couldn't perform safety duties any better than he could perform cornerback duties, because he's hurt.

Well he has been practicing for a few weeks now. So I guess it makes sense to discuss his return to the field.

Personally I hope they try him at safety. As you know, when a CB hits the wall the decline is very fast. It just seems like now is the time.

[MOtorboat]

Well he has been practicing for a few weeks now. So I guess it makes sense to discuss his return to the field.

Personally I hope they try him at safety. As you know, when a CB hits the wall the decline is very fast. It just seems like now is the time.

I don't follow this logic.

He has hit a wall at one position and cannot perform the position, so changing positions eliminates the wall? Please explain.

[slim]

I don't follow this logic.

He has hit a wall at one position and cannot perform the position, so changing positions eliminates the wall? Please explain.

Safety does not require the same speed/quickness that CB does. Do I really need to explain this to you?

[MOtorboat]

Whoa man. Let's not get carried away here.

You made a stupid sarcastic post about him playing safety would magically heal his foot. Nobody said it would, neither did the article. We know he's hurt.

Lighten up brother. We're on the same team here. You think it's a bad move, state your reasons why.

Yeah, you're right, I made a sarcastic post, because the arguments for this never get any better. It's always "he's old. Rod Woodson did it. Move him."

Those reasons aren't good enough reasons to move him to a position he's never played before.

He was an All Pro (That's one of the best 4 cornerbacks in the game) last year. He had a plantar fascitus injury (or however you spell it), came back too soon and wasn't himself. That leads to people saying he's "hit a wall" and "it's time." These are not logical reasons to move anyone to another position they've never played before.

Then there's the mid-season reason. He's prepared all off season and has been in team meetings as a cornerback. So, what should we do with him? Put him at safety.

I haven't heard one sound, logical reason for moving him to safety, ever. So, yes, forgive me if I'm a little sarcastic about it.

[MOtorboat]

Safety does not require the same speed/quickness that CB does. Do I really need to explain this to you?

A safety covers a lot more ground, so I guess I'm not sure I buy that. The quick-twitch type of movements, sure, but speed is an important part of being a safety.

Considering he was an All Pro the last time he was on the field and healthy, I'm not sure what "wall" he's hit, anyway.

[MOtorboat]

Think about this for a second, Slim.

You're watching the draft, and the Broncos are up with Pick No. 32, and Mel Kiper's analysis of the safety they are about to take is, "well, he plays safety because he's not fast enough to be a cornerback."

What sort of sense does that make?

[Joel]

Champ could read and react at least as quickly and well from centerfield as he does at the line; if he could drop his man and run the width of the field for an '06 pick, he can do it now. That said, I wouldn't move him midseason, no; the switch isn't as impossible as... certain people :tongue: suggest, but not instant nor automatic either. Champ's not dumb, and won't be in demand as a starting CB next year, so renegotiating a more manageable contract to retain all our other stars and move him to safety next year makes much sense. THIS year, despite depth at CB and lack at safety, there's a reason we signed two FA safeties this week.

[powderaddict]

A reasonable argument for putting Champ at S is that the current CB's we have are doing a bang-up job, where as S has become a bit of a concern recently.

If he can play the position and provide an upgrade, I don't see why it's such a terrible idea to consider it. I'm not saying it should happen, but if he's healthy enough to play he might be able really strengthen that position.

[MOtorboat]

A reasonable argument for putting Champ at S is that the current CB's we have are doing a bang-up job, where as S has become a bit of a concern recently.

If he can play the position and provide an upgrade, I don't see why it's such a terrible idea to consider it. I'm not saying it should happen, but if he's healthy enough to play he might be able really strengthen that position.

Denver gets stronger defensively with Harris and Webster playing inside and Champ playing his normal position, than it does putting a player at a position he's never played before.

[Ravage!!!]

Think about this for a second, Slim.

You're watching the draft, and the Broncos are up with Pick No. 32, and Mel Kiper's analysis of the safety they are about to take is, "well, he plays safety because he's not fast enough to be a cornerback."

What sort of sense does that make?

That is actually the case in MANY situations. Safeties don't have to make the quick change change of directions, the pivot of the hips, or the flat out speed that corners do. They don't really have to cover more area, but do have the advantage of seeing the QB before/as he's throwing the ball. Not to mention, the safety has the "extra" time of ball flight to react to the correct direction of ball flight that a corner doesn't have.

Its why Safeties can be bigger than corners, on many occasions. They have the long legs to cover ground, but aren't nearly as fast nor as quick (not to mention having the size helps with run support) as the outside guys.

I agree with what you are saying. Moving a player mid-season to a position he's never played bfore doesn't make sense to me. If we were at the END of this season and were talking about moving him NEXT year, I would be on board with the idea of giving him a shot, because I don't believe he has the quickness, or speed, to be a corner anymore.

But we can't/won't spend the money to stick around...even with his voted all-pro selection.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

I don't think it's the time to move Champ to safety and I still think that this discussion is a little premature. For his position, he can tackle so I think that attribute would transition well in a move to safety. However, I'm not entirely comfortable with our current corners like others on here. I'm encouraged, but not comfortable. I think Adams can maintain the position (and Bruton, if necessary) until Moore gets back for the playoffs.

When I started reading about Moore's injury, I started thinking of Quinton Carter. We sure could use him right now and I'm hoping we haven't seen his last down in the NFL.

[Northman]

I would tend to think Champ has the smarts to make the transition fairly smoothly.

DRC, Harris, Webster & even recently Jammer have been playing well at CB. S is now a much bigger need. If Champ is healthy enough to play, put him where he will make the biggest difference. I see that as S, but I'll be happy to see him back in any capacity!

Pretty much. If he's healthy and can still play up to par at CB than great but if not and the team thinks he can contribute at safety i dont see a problem with it. I would rather get 2-3 years with him at safety with a better chance at getting a ring than just have him retire after the year in case we dont make it. I dont think its bad to consider it.

[Northman]

I didn't realize that since my opinion is opposite of the premise of this article, that I was not allowed to voice it.

Next time, a disclaimer would be appreciated on which threads are debates, and which ones are for those who only share the same opinion.

I will back away, and not point out the 10 reasons not to move him, so that you can all discuss moving him without dissention.


No one is saying you cant voice it MO, but you were being a bit of a dickhole about it.

[Northman]

Safety does not require the same speed/quickness that CB does. Do I really need to explain this to you?

Very very true.

I played safety and since i wasnt the fastest guy it allowed me to survey and scan the field in front of me which i had success doing. Tried DB once and got torched, like a LOT. lol And that was when i was young.

[Joel]

A reasonable argument for putting Champ at S is that the current CB's we have are doing a bang-up job, where as S has become a bit of a concern recently.
Oh, how I wish that were true.... :tongue:

Actually, it IS true (except that the safety concern is far from recent:) It's a REASONABLE argument, just not a very POPULAR one around here. There are TONS of reasons this makes sense next year:

1) We're stacked at CB. Even with Carter regressing, Jammer's shown he's got some miles left and rookie Kayvon Webster has stepped up; as long as Tony Carter's our BACKUP DIMEBACK, we're fine.
2) Safety's far less secure. Even with Dukes emergence, Moore was no worldbeater before injury, but now we're starting a solid but unremarkable Adams who's just a year and a half younger than Champ.
3) Champs declining speed is less of a liability at safety than at CB, because that extra field he must cover actually gives him more time to react and a better view of the QB and receivers.
4) The accuracy and speed of his play recognition is essential to good safeties.
5) So is his firm secure tackling and eagerness to do it even in the running game; the last line of defense can't miss tackles, and Champ rarely does.
6) The same reaction time that let him make up ground on WRs (and ambush QBs) would be invaluable at safety; QBs couldn't frustrate him by just throwing to another man, because EVERYONE'S the safetys man.
7) A decade of Pro Bowls means even PFM playcalling won't confuse or fool him often, if at all.

That's just the stuff I can remember off the top of my head, but there are so many reasons Champ could finish his career as an elite safety that I usually forget a few. Yet some folks can't think of ANY; weird....

[Slick]

Yeah, you're right, I made a sarcastic post, because the arguments for this never get any better. It's always "he's old. Rod Woodson did it. Move him."

Those reasons aren't good enough reasons to move him to a position he's never played before.

He was an All Pro (That's one of the best 4 cornerbacks in the game) last year. He had a plantar fascitus injury (or however you spell it), came back too soon and wasn't himself. That leads to people saying he's "hit a wall" and "it's time." These are not logical reasons to move anyone to another position they've never played before.

Then there's the mid-season reason. He's prepared all off season and has been in team meetings as a cornerback. So, what should we do with him? Put him at safety.

I haven't heard one sound, logical reason for moving him to safety, ever. So, yes, forgive me if I'm a little sarcastic about it.

Fair enough.

I think he might, because all I am doing is speculating, might make a good to great free safety because...

He's a stud tackler, always has been.

He can defend TEs. He's got good size and if he can heal, he can run with any of them.

He has excellent ball skills.

He is good at reading a QBs eyes, studies their tendencies, knows a lot of times who is the hot route.

He could diagnose plays playing centerfield maybe a little better if he's in the middle of the field instead of at corner.


I agree that a mid season move would be extremely difficult, even if he gets healthy. He may never, and it turns into a moot point anyways.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Denver gets stronger defensively with Harris and Webster playing inside and Champ playing his normal position, than it does putting a player at a position he's never played before.

So we know in the games he has played that he is too slow. That is probably due to his foot injury, but if he is at the same speed he is a liability as a CB. We are thin at S, if another guy gets hurt we are putting the guy who hasn't played for us in Huff or a special team guy in Bruton in at safety. Maybe if Champ is a half a step slow at CB, he might be fast enough to play safety. Yea, he hasn't played there before and Huff might be a better choice, but unless his foot heals and he regains that half-step, he isn't playing CB again for us unless there are some injuries.

[slim]

A safety covers a lot more ground, so I guess I'm not sure I buy that. The quick-twitch type of movements, sure, but speed is an important part of being a safety.

Considering he was an All Pro the last time he was on the field and healthy, I'm not sure what "wall" he's hit, anyway.

Speed is important, but elite speed is not necessary for a safety. Too me Bailey no longer has elite speed. I am basing that off of the end of last year and what little I have seen this year.

Frankly I don't want to see him back at CB this year. I would love for him to come back and prove me wrong, but he is not going to play CB forever, MO.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Speed is important, but elite speed is not necessary for a safety. Too me Bailey no longer has elite speed. I am basing that off of the end of last year and what little I have seen this year.

Frankly I don't want to see him back at CB this year. I would love for him to come back and prove me wrong, but he is not going to play CB forever, MO.

I really think he is done at CB unless there are some injuries.

[slim]

I really think he is done at CB unless there are some injuries.

I do too. It sucks it has to end like this for him, which one reason I hope they give him a try at safety.

[atwater27]

I said that.

This debate, as much as I think it is stupid (and it's pretty ******* stupid), .

Your opinion on the matter is a good indication that it should happen.

[Dzone]

Players should have to run a 40 every year and have it made public. It would help the fans in deciding what position someone should be playing. lol
If I am not mistaken, Darrel Green was still fast at the end and I think he played to 42.

[Northman]

Players should have to run a 40 every year and have it made public. It would help the fans in deciding what position someone should be playing. lol
If I am not mistaken, Darrel Green was still fast at the end and I think he played to 42.

Yea, but Green isnt the norm. Dude was a freak of nature.

[topscribe]

I said that.

This debate, as much as I think it is stupid (and it's pretty ******* stupid), is moot until Bailey's foot is completely healed. He couldn't perform safety duties any better than he could perform cornerback duties, because he's hurt.
I agree with the thought, even though I don't agree with the acerbic way
you expressed it. The first concern is to get Champ healthy. He is of little use
anywhere on the field until that happens. That will be the time he and the
team can decide where he will play.

But I wouldn't have any concerns over whether a healthy Champ can play
safety. He may have lost a half-step as a CB, but he could still outrun most
safeties, once healthy. And he's very cerebral and knows defense inside
and out - probably the greatest need for a free safety.

But, as you said, wait and see . . .
.

[claymore]

I agree with the thought, even though I don't agree with the acerbic way
you expressed it. The first concern is to get Champ healthy. He is of little use
anywhere on the field until that happens. That will be the time he and the
team can decide where he will play.

But I wouldn't have any concerns over whether a healthy Champ can play
safety. He may have lost a half-step as a CB, but he could still outrun most
safeties, once healthy. And he's very cerebral and knows defense inside
and out - probably the greatest need for a free safety.

But, as you said, wait and see . . .
.

Others have done it. I dont see why Champ couldnt.

[MOtorboat]

Others have done it. I dont see why Champ couldnt.

One has done it successfully. One has done it to mediocre success. Several others have been disasters.

[Northman]

One has done it successfully. One has done it to mediocre success. Several others have been disasters.

Why do you feel so sure he wouldnt work out?

[claymore]

One has done it successfully. One has done it to mediocre success. Several others have been disasters.

So its been done. I dont see why you dont think Champ is capable of doing it. Its better then just cutting him. Id take him over Michael Huff any day.

[MOtorboat]

Why do you feel so sure he wouldnt work out?

It's not that I don't think he could play the position. He was an ALL PRO at his current position just last year. Not five or six years ago, last year.

Why on Earth would you move an All Pro to a new position?

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah.. Rod Woodson, who was elected to the 75th anniversary team while still a player (only Rod, Joe Montana ((with Chiefs at the time)) and Jerry Rice were selected on that team and still playing in the NFL). That just goes to show you that Rod Woodson was considered one of the top 2 Corners of ALL TIME of the NFL. Selected from 75 years of teams, and Rod Woodson is the one everyone brings up as being "Why" Champ can make the conversion.

Rod Woodson actually qualified for the Olympic hurdling team, and is the only player to tear ACL and actually come back and PLAY the very same season.

The only other BIG name to move from corner to safety was Ronnie Lott, and Ronnie moved after just 4 years in the NFL.

Obviously, Champ has had the skills and head to make the transition, but that doesn't mean he can make the transition at this stage of his career, at this point of the season.

[claymore]

It's not that I don't think he could play the position. He was an ALL PRO at his current position just last year. Not five or six years ago, last year.

Why on Earth would you move an All Pro to a new position?

Because he's 40 years old and only has one foot. Plus he was beat like a drum in the most important game of his life.

[Ravage!!!]

It's not that I don't think he could play the position. He was an ALL PRO at his current position just last year. Not five or six years ago, last year.

Why on Earth would you move an All Pro to a new position?

Yeah, but that' just votes. We can ALLLLLL see that Champ has lost a step, and its an OBVIOUS drop off. He was beat like a DRUM against Baltimore over and over again, and that was after he had already lost 1/2 a step. He was able to keep up and play well after losing that 1/2 step, but now, that 1/2 step has been lengthened by closer to a full step. The EYE test says a lot more than the "All Pro" votes.

[Northman]

It's not that I don't think he could play the position. He was an ALL PRO at his current position just last year. Not five or six years ago, last year.

Why on Earth would you move an All Pro to a new position?


If he is slowing down or age is catching up with him i can see moving him to a new position to prolong his career because of his overall talent. While im not saying take him if he's still able to perform at a high level at DB i dont know why anyone would frown upon him moving to safety if he just wasnt able to perform better than some of the young guys we have at DB. While we dont know yet because his foot isnt healed its not really a bad question to ask per the article.

[MOtorboat]

Because he's 40 years old and only has one foot. Plus he was beat like a drum in the most important game of his life.

He's closer to 30 than 40, and he gave up three touchdowns in 17 games, so I'll try to look at the whole season rather than two plays.


Yeah, but that' just votes. We can ALLLLLL see that Champ has lost a step, and its an OBVIOUS drop off. He was beat like a DRUM against Baltimore over and over again, and that was after he had already lost 1/2 a step. He was able to keep up and play well after losing that 1/2 step, but now, that 1/2 step has been lengthened by closer to a full step. The EYE test says a lot more than the "All Pro" votes.

The only thing we've seen is an injured player not at full strength.

[MOtorboat]

If he is slowing down or age is catching up with him i can see moving him to a new position to prolong his career because of his overall talent. While im not saying take him if he's still able to perform at a high level at DB i dont know why anyone would frown upon him moving to safety if he just wasnt able to perform better than some of the young guys we have at DB. While we dont know yet because his foot isnt healed its not really a bad question to ask per the article.

I frown upon him movie to safety because he's an exceptional corner, and corner is still a markedly more important position than safety.

[Ravage!!!]

The only thing we've seen is an injured player not at full strength.

That wasn't the case against Baltimore. I don't see backing away from Champ anymore, but rather attacking him and his lack of speed.

[Northman]

I frown upon him movie to safety because he's an exceptional corner, and corner is still a markedly more important position than safety.


Tell the Ravens that. lol

[Dzone]

Isnt Champs tackling skills as good as most safeties and better than most corners? I suppose he could play safety, but its a moot point if they dont ever intend to move him there.
Fans can debate hypotheticals all they want, but it doesnt affect coaches decisions...Has Del Rio ever been asked about moving Champ to safety?

[claymore]

He's closer to 30 than 40, and he gave up three touchdowns in 17 games, so I'll try to look at the whole season rather than two plays.

The only thing we've seen is an injured player not at full strength.He's over 35, makes 10 Million a year and was absolutley smoked in the last meaningful game he played in. He is our 3rd or 4th best corner unless he takes HGH, he is either gone, or changes position. I would rather him change positions and take a paycut than have him retire.

[Northman]

Isnt Champs tackling skills as good as most safeties and better than most corners? I suppose he could play safety, but its a moot point if they dont ever intend to move him there.
Fans can debate hypotheticals all they want, but it doesnt affect coaches decisions...Has Del Rio ever been asked about moving Champ to safety?

Doubt it.

[MOtorboat]

Tell the Ravens that. lol

?

Their defense was markedly worse without Webb and Smith last year and they let go of their starting safeties, even after winning a Super Bowl.

[Northman]

?

Their defense was markedly worse without Webb and Smith last year and they let go of their starting safeties, even after winning a Super Bowl.


I was talking about them torching our secondary. But, the release of the safeties had more to do with age/cap space. And yes, they were worse off without Webb and Smith but you can say that about any team that loses their starters.

[MOtorboat]

I was talking about them torching our secondary. But, the release of the safeties had more to do with age/cap space. And yes, they were worse off without Webb and Smith but you can say that about any team that loses their starters.

Well, in that one game, they torched a corner and a safety...ugh...I hate that ******* game.

If you look at the Ravens when they moved Woodson, they could do so because they drafted Chris McAlister, who had one of the biggest impacts on that team as a CB, and DeRon Jenkins at the other. The main reason was McAlister and McAlister was on a team-friendly rookie contract.

What we've seen out of DRC, Harris and Webster has been impressive, but not sure they are as good as the Ravens combo.

DRC is not going to be on a team-friendly contract if he signs next year with the Broncos.

PLUS...Woodson was a safety at Purdue...

[claymore]

Well, in that one game, they torched a corner and a safety...ugh...I hate that ******* game.

If you look at the Ravens when they moved Woodson, they could do so because they drafted Chris McAlister, who had one of the biggest impacts on that team as a CB, and DeRon Jenkins at the other. The main reason was McAlister and McAlister was on a team-friendly rookie contract.

What we've seen out of DRC, Harris and Webster has been impressive, but not sure they are as good as the Ravens combo.

DRC is not going to be on a team-friendly contract if he signs next year with the Broncos.

PLUS...Woodson was a safety at Purdue...

So you think Champ retires? I dont see him back at his current rate, or within 90% of his current rate.

[MOtorboat]

So you think Champ retires? I dont see him back at his current rate, or within 90% of his current rate.

I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote.

No, I don't think Champ is retiring.

[slim]

I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote.

No, I don't think Champ is retiring.

He will be 36 next year, Mo. In the history of the NFL, the list of 36 y/o CB is pretty short.

[claymore]

I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote.

No, I don't think Champ is retiring.

I just know you are against moving him to safety. I improperly used the reply I guess.

What do you think happens to Champ? I cant imagine that any team to include us would be willing to pay him his current salary when he isnt the best option at the position.

[MOtorboat]

He will be 36 next year, Mo. In the history of the NFL, the list of 36 y/o CB is pretty short.

I have no reservations saying Bailey is one of those guys. None at all.


I just know you are against moving him to safety. I improperly used the reply I guess.

What do you think happens to Champ? I cant imagine that any team to include us would be willing to pay him his current salary when he isnt the best option at the position.

Everybody just hold the damn phone here. He was the best option last year. He was a Top 5 corner in the league LAST YEAR. He's injured this year, so when he came back prematurely, of course he didn't look very good. We're not talking about someone who's five years removed from excellence.

[claymore]

I have no reservations saying Bailey is one of those guys. None at all.



Everybody just hold the damn phone here. He was the best option last year. He was a Top 5 corner in the league LAST YEAR. He's injured this year, so when he came back prematurely, of course he didn't look very good. We're not talking about someone who's five years removed from excellence.We had a fantastic pass rush last year and we were in the weakest division in football. His statistics benefited greatly. He didnt look near what he used to.

He is on the downside of his career, and we dont need a top 5 CB more than we need all of the players who are FA's at the end of the year. We need that money, and have awesome young CB's in Harris and Webster.

[LTC Pain]

If Champ doesn't significantly restructure his salary the Broncos stand a good chance of having to let DRC walk.

[claymore]

If Champ doesn't significantly restructure his salary the Broncos stand a good chance of having to let DRC walk.

There isnt a single scenario I can think of where JFE would let that happen. If he made the team as a starting safety he would take less of a paycut IMO.

[topscribe]

If Champ doesn't significantly restructure his salary the Broncos stand a good chance of having to let DRC walk.
Frankly, if it came down to that, I don't see their keeping Champ at the
expense of a younger, faster DRC who is showing that he is a shutdown CB.
But Champ has already indicated he would play safety if and when the time
comes. And I'm sure he also has enough business acumen to know that no
one else is going to pay him his present salary. I see him renegotiating.
.

[Joel]

Frankly, if it came down to that, I don't see their keeping Champ at the
expense of a younger, faster DRC who is showing that he is a shutdown CB.
But Champ has already indicated he would play safety if and when the time
comes. And I'm sure he also has enough business acumen to know that no
one else is going to pay him his present salary. I see him renegotiating.
.
That. Champ's not a petulant idiot who'll screw himself out of a shot at a Ring by demanding money he can't get in Denver so he ends up playing for less than our offer on a losing team. We won't—can't—continue his current contract, and no one else will match it, so it's just a question of where and how he wants to play for less money. There's not a lot of teams itching to sign a 36 year old CB who missed most of a season with injury after getting burned for multiple TDs in a playoff game.

As to whether it's been discussed, I believe Carol was the one who linked an article during TC that said no one's suggested it and the coaches say they'll wait until Champ does. Fair enough, but there's no way that contract isn't renogiated whatever position he plays next year. All good things come to an end; I just hope we can get him a Ring one way or another before he retires.

[Ravage!!!]

That's really not the question. This "home town discount" rarely.. RARELY...exists.

If Champ doesn't really want to move to safety, and wants to end his career playing corner..... he'll move on to a team that will start him at corner. Will he have to be paid less....yes. No shit. He knew that would happen when he signed this contract to begin with. It's a backloaded contract to help teams out with their salary cap with the expectations that the contract would be re-negotiated.

But that doesn't mean a player isn't willing to go play, say, inside a dome....for a team that is willing to pay him to play corner.

[claymore]

Frankly, if it came down to that, I don't see their keeping Champ at the
expense of a younger, faster DRC who is showing that he is a shutdown CB.
But Champ has already indicated he would play safety if and when the time
comes. And I'm sure he also has enough business acumen to know that no
one else is going to pay him his present salary. I see him renegotiating.
.I dont see anyone paying him more than Denver will. At this point in his life, I imagine its the NFL that will be the hard thing to give up, not the money. I see him back in a reduced role, at a reduced rate. Or at safety. To be honest, Im cool with every scenario other than him returning at the same salary.

[Ravage!!!]

I dont see anyone paying him more than Denver will. At this point in his life, I imagine its the NFL that will be the hard thing to give up, not the money. I see him back in a reduced role, at a reduced rate. Or at safety. To be honest, Im cool with every scenario other than him returning at the same salary.

Thats a given. It was a contract that even Champ knew would have to be renegotiated when he signed it.

[claymore]

Thats a given. It was a contract that even Champ knew would have to be renegotiated when he signed it.

Why do you say that? It wasnt backloaded. He makes less this year and next year than he did in 2011 and 2012. I think he intended to play out the contract. I dont think he counted on father time taking its toll, and us doing so well with Webster and Harris.

[Slick]

That's really not the question. This "home town discount" rarely.. RARELY...exists.

If Champ doesn't really want to move to safety, and wants to end his career playing corner..... he'll move on to a team that will start him at corner. Will he have to be paid less....yes. No shit. He knew that would happen when he signed this contract to begin with. It's a backloaded contract to help teams out with their salary cap with the expectations that the contract would be re-negotiated.

But that doesn't mean a player isn't willing to go play, say, inside a dome....for a team that is willing to pay him to play corner.

He's not going to go play for a team that has no shot at winning just so he can ge a starting corner. Champ isn't wired that way.

[claymore]

He's not going to go play for a team that has no shot at winning just so he can ge a starting corner. Champ isn't wired that way.


Champ Bailey "One thing I've learned is, the grass is not always greener," Bailey said by conference call. "You can look at an organization that looks like they're ready but they're not ready. And then I'm miserable because I'm around a lot of unfamiliar faces in an unfamiliar place.

"I thought about that. I thought about being on the market but all in all, it didn't really take me to forgive them. There's new people in charge there. I know I could have got something worked out once Josh McDaniels left. And things did work out didn't they?"

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_17454037
I dont think he leaves either. I just think he needs to come back at a much cheaper rate.

[topscribe]

Why do you say that? It wasnt backloaded. He makes less this year and next year than he did in 2011 and 2012. I think he intended to play out the contract. I dont think he counted on father time taking its toll, and us doing so well with Webster and Harris.
And DRC. Especially DRC. Harris is obviously a very good CB, and Webster is
showing that he will become a very good CB. But DRC appears to be becoming
the elite CB the Cardinals thought they were getting when they drafted him.
That's what they needed: an elite CB to replace Champ.

Well, Champ has been replaced, IMO. Champ can still be a valuable component
in the defensive backfield, but he is rejoining a crowded CB position (let's not
forget Jammer). The safety position is hurting right now for depth. That was
evident when the Broncos signed the two scrubs in the last couple days.
Champ is a better football player than perhaps all the Broncos safeties (though,
of course, not as experienced at that position). I wouldn't be surprised at
seeing him doing some of his field time back there, once he comes back.
.

[Ravage!!!]

He's not going to go play for a team that has no shot at winning just so he can ge a starting corner. Champ isn't wired that way.

You don't know that. Do you really know how important it is for him to play corner as opposed to moving to safety? What about a team like ...Detroit...New Orleans.. Dallas? They all play inside, could pay him ot play corner. What about a team like NE? Again, are we talking about the difference in pay or the difference of positions?

I don't know what's more important to him because I don't know him. How do we know that once you get to this time of his career, realizing thatit would be his LAST contract, that he doesn't simply pick a team that "respects" him the most with the most pay (in parenthesis because that is how player associate respect)?

Again, I've said (probably in this very thread) that I believe its time for Champ to make the move..if he can.... because I dont' believe he has the speed to play corner any more. ALthough, I don't expect to see the "switch" after 10 games of the season. So I'm not opposed to Champ staying and changing, but it would have to come next year. Which then leaves the possibility of him either WANTING to make the switch and agree to work all off season to make the change...or... his agent finds a team that is willing to pay him comparable money to stay at the position he already knows.

[Ravage!!!]

Why do you say that? It wasnt backloaded. He makes less this year and next year than he did in 2011 and 2012. I think he intended to play out the contract. I dont think he counted on father time taking its toll, and us doing so well with Webster and Harris.

I think a player that is expecting to make 10 million at 37 realizes that there is a good chance he is asked to "renegotiate" his contract to make it more cap friendly.

[Simple Jaded]

Here's my issue about the change, the last time I saw Bailey playing healthy I saw plenty of speed, what I think had been lacking in his play is his elite ball skills. The second TD to Torrey Smith is a prime example, Bailey was in his hip pocket but Smith made a better play on the ball. I wonder if it's the skills that would have made him special at S that should be questioned, not his speed and coverage ability.

He's not the player he was when he had 18 Int's in the span of 30 games, I don't think any CB is, but had Bailey been healthy this season I think he'd make a perfect trio with DRC and Jr, my hope is they let Bailey heal as long as possible and we eventually get to see what this D would look like with all their players.

[Joel]

And DRC. Especially DRC. Harris is obviously a very good CB, and Webster is
showing that he will become a very good CB. But DRC appears to be becoming
the elite CB the Cardinals thought they were getting when they drafted him.
That's what they needed: an elite CB to replace Champ.

Well, Champ has been replaced, IMO. Champ can still be a valuable component
in the defensive backfield, but he is rejoining a crowded CB position (let's not
forget Jammer). The safety position is hurting right now for depth. That was
evident when the Broncos signed the two scrubs in the last couple days.
Champ is a better football player that perhaps all the Broncos safeties (though,
of course, not as experienced at that position). I wouldn't be surprised at
seeing him doing some of his field time back there, once he comes back.
.
(Almost) everyone's finally reached the same conclusion I reached after watching Champ get there just a beat too late to pick Roethlisberger in the end zone and prevent an OT-forcing TD on the very next play. Just like Kubes is finally accepting what I said about Schaub that year (so close; if Jacoby Jones doesn't fumble a punt at Houstons 2 they go to the AFCCG in 2011.) Even with Ihenachos emergence we've still got a lot more quality players at CB than at safety; Champs speed is still reduced and he still has excellent read and tackling skills. All that's changed is we have DRC, Webster and Carter, and Champ's two years older.

Champ's a team player, doesn't need the money and lacks naught but a Ring at this stage of his career. I expect a switch, though I agree it won't be so quick and easy we should try it in the middle of a title run.

[embeeteeay]

Great arguments all around, guys. I really enjoy digesting all the various opinions and insight.

[Simple Jaded]

(Almost) everyone's finally reached the same conclusion I reached after watching Champ get there just a beat too late to pick Roethlisberger in the end zone and prevent an OT-forcing TD on the very next play. Just like Kubes is finally accepting what I said about Schaub that year (so close; if Jacoby Jones doesn't fumble a punt at Houstons 2 they go to the AFCCG in 2011.) Even with Ihenachos emergence we've still got a lot more quality players at CB than at safety; Champs speed is still reduced and he still has excellent read and tackling skills. All that's changed is we have DRC, Webster and Carter, and Champ's two years older.

Champ's a team player, doesn't need the money and lacks naught but a Ring at this stage of his career. I expect a switch, though I agree it won't be so quick and easy we should try it in the middle of a title run.


See, I knew this would happen, the quacks that have saying Bailey should move to S forever would come out and say "I told you so" when the time finally came to consider it.

Congrats, Nostradamus, you were (Almost) prophetic.

[Ravage!!!]

See, I knew this would happen, the quacks that have saying Bailey should move to S forever would come out and say "I told you so" when the time finally came to consider it.

Congrats, Nostradamus, you were (Almost) prophetic.

Exactly. :lol: Joel thinks he's "ahead of everyone" on everything. "I predict the negative outcome, because when I'm right I have the ""I told you so""..when I'm wrong I have the ""he beat the odds despite them being against him."" It's a No-lose perspective and shows absolutely NO knowledge.

"I predict when Manning and Brady can no longer complete passes, neither will be playing in the NFL any longer."

[Simple Jaded]

Exactly. :lol: Joel thinks he's "ahead of everyone" on everything. "I predict the negative outcome, because when I'm right I have the ""I told you so""..when I'm wrong I have the ""he beat the odds despite them being against him."" It's a No-lose perspective and shows absolutely NO knowledge.

"I predict when Manning and Brady can no longer complete passes, neither will be playing in the NFL any longer."
I predict that Joel will soon post an epic War and Peace dissertation about how the Broncos can't afford any of the those world class European athletes/future ProBowlers because Peyton Manning makes $20 mil/year.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Great arguments all around, guys. I really enjoy digesting all the various opinions and insight.

Zip it commie-

[Canmore]

Zip it commie-

You are to kind.