Peyton's Injuries

[Shazam!]

Am I they only one wondering if our Boy Manning can make it through 7 more games?

He looked like he was in genuine pain at the presser.

I am concerned...

[BroncoWave]

Not really worried myself. Other than his neck injury, he has never missed a game in his career. This is a guy who plays through pain. It's going to take more than some sprained ankles to keep him out.

[SR]

Not really worried myself. Other than his neck injury, he has never missed a game in his career. This is a guy who plays through pain. It's going to take more than some sprained ankles to keep him out.

What about his obvious right knee injury today?

I worry about his health if the offensive line continues to let pressure through

[BroncoWave]

What about his obvious right knee injury today?

I worry about his health if the offensive line continues to let pressure through

It can't have been too serious since he stayed in.

[Army Bronco]

Don't our players get penalized and fined for hits like the one that hobbled Manning? It was clearly after he threw the ball.

[Simple Jaded]

Don't our players get penalized and fined for hits like the one that hobbled Manning? It was clearly after he threw the ball.

You're not allowed to hit the QB below the knees either.

[SR]

You're not allowed to hit the QB below the knees either.

Apparently the rules are a little cloudy

[BroncoWave]

It is a joke how no flags have been called on late hits on Peyton all year. It's like every star QB gets protected but him. I don't get it.

[atwater27]

Teams are starting to capitalize on his lack of mobility. I mean, he was barely functionally mobile before, but with his akles, it's T-Ball time.

[OrangeHoof]

Yeah, that's what I hate most about NFL games - all the call/no call stuff. Mostly, the officials let them play today which is the way I prefer it but all those times I've watched my teams get flagged for hitting the QB high or low and, today, nothing gets called.

[Timmy!]

I know its pretty much against what we normally do and without a fb our personnel aren't completely ideal for it, but if we have a double digit lead in the second half, we need need to line up in big formations and just pound the rock, or at least try. Peyton is a warrior, but we simply can not have him taking unneeded shots all the time. Rotate backs and just try 3 runs in a row, please, and not out of the pistol or gun 3/4 of the time.

[Simple Jaded]

I know its pretty much against what we normally do and with a fb our personnel aren't completely ideal for it, but if we have a double digit lead in the second half, we need need to line up in big formations and just pound the rock, or at least try. Peyton is a warrior, but we simply can not have him taking unneeded shots all the time. Rotate backs and just try 3 runs in a row, please, and not of the pistol or gun 3/4 of the time.

They're gonna need a better running game in the playoffs, chances are, getting it fine tuned wouldn't be the worst idea ever.

[Timmy!]

They're gonna need a better running game in the playoffs, chances are, getting it fine tuned wouldn't be the worst idea ever.

Moreno has been saving our asses this year, and his running his balls off. Suddenly he actually has vision, and turns out he is really good on check downs for 5+ yards almost every time. We really need Ball to step up, and either CJ or Hillman :cringe. to do something.

[Simple Jaded]

Moreno has been saving our asses this year, and his running his balls off. Suddenly he actually has vision, and turns out he is really good on check downs for 5+ yards almost every time. We really need Ball to step up, and either CJ or Hillman :cringe. to do something.
Even if it's just Moreno and Ball, that'd be enough. Moreno is the tone setter, imo, he's the only offensive player with an attitude.

[Joel]

What about his obvious right knee injury today?

I worry about his health if the offensive line continues to let pressure through
Peyton Manning has 6 Ints and 7 fumbles this year: NINE were in the last THREE games. The line was doing a phenomenal job (Ramirez is surprisingly a much better C than G) until Clady went down; Manning was almost untouched and Moreno averaging >5 yds per carry. Injuries—particularly Cladys—have sadly exposed our lack of depth by exposing our QB and RBs to opposing tacklers. Kuper was reportedly hobbling after the games where he had to sub for Vasquez so the latter could slide into Franklins spot; if ANY of our lineman get hurt at this point things will be grim. Looking at Manning, things are kind of grim NOW.


It is a joke how no flags have been called on late hits on Peyton all year. It's like every star QB gets protected but him. I don't get it.
The standard's different for us; same reason Decker and Thomas scream for flags they don't get (Welker's apparently just resigned to it) while OUR DBs get flagged if they even look at a receiver.


Yeah, that's what I hate most about NFL games - all the call/no call stuff. Mostly, the officials let them play today which is the way I prefer it but all those times I've watched my teams get flagged for hitting the QB high or low and, today, nothing gets called.
It's fine whether they "let 'em play" or call it tight as long as they do one or the other CONSISTENTLY, not let ONE team play and call it tight on the OTHER. That's just not a level playing field. Our guys get flagged for PI, Illegal Contact, Defensive Holding or Hitting a Defenseless Receiver if it's even close; meanwhile "the Legion of Boom" is celebrated for (basically) playing like it's 1970 and getting away with it. Vickerson can't even brush ANY QB without a 15 yd penalty and automatic first down when a team should be punting, but defensive linemen can dive at Peyton Mannings ankles as a catch is made and it's fine.

There's just no way we can win a title with officiating this heavily biased against us, and if anyone doubts that: Remember the team we shelled by 4 TDs on their homefield, only to have them beat us on ours in the playoffs just a month later? Was it any surprise when that team "won" the Super Bowl? Rejecting such predetermined popularity contests is why I always preferred the NFL to the SECAA, but the pros are evidently doing their unlevel best to be even worse about it than college ball.

[SR]

Peyton Manning has 6 Ints and 7 fumbles this year: NINE were in the last THREE games. The line was doing a phenomenal job (Ramirez is surprisingly a much better C than G) until Clady went down; Manning was almost untouched and Moreno averaging >5 yds per carry. Injuries—particularly Cladys—have sadly exposed our lack of depth by exposing our QB and RBs to opposing tacklers. Kuper was reportedly hobbling after the games where he had to sub for Vasquez so the latter could slide into Franklins spot; if ANY of our lineman get hurt at this point things will be grim. Looking at Manning, things are kind of grim NOW. The standard's different for us; same reason Decker and Thomas scream for flags they don't get (Welker's apparently just resigned to it) while OUR DBs get flagged if they even look at a receiver. It's fine whether they "let 'em play" or call it tight as long as they do one or the other CONSISTENTLY, not let ONE team play and call it tight on the OTHER. That's just not a level playing field. Our guys get flagged for PI, Illegal Contact, Defensive Holding or Hitting a Defenseless Receiver if it's even close; meanwhile "the Legion of Boom" is celebrated for (basically) playing like it's 1970 and getting away with it. Vickerson can't even brush ANY QB without a 15 yd penalty and automatic first down when a team should be punting, but defensive linemen can dive at Peyton Mannings ankles as a catch is made and it's fine. There's just no way we can win a title with officiating this heavily biased against us, and if anyone doubts that: Remember the team we shelled by 4 TDs on their homefield, only to have them beat us on ours in the playoffs just a month later? Was it any surprise when that team "won" the Super Bowl? Rejecting such predetermined popularity contests is why I always preferred the NFL to the SECAA, but the pros are evidently doing their unlevel best to be even worse about it than college ball.

All six of his picks were in four games.
The team has played nine.

[MOtorboat]

Peyton Manning has 6 Ints and 7 fumbles this year: NINE were in the last THREE games. The line was doing a phenomenal job (Ramirez is surprisingly a much better C than G) until Clady went down; Manning was almost untouched and Moreno averaging >5 yds per carry. Injuries—particularly Cladys—have sadly exposed our lack of depth by exposing our QB and RBs to opposing tacklers. Kuper was reportedly hobbling after the games where he had to sub for Vasquez so the latter could slide into Franklins spot; if ANY of our lineman get hurt at this point things will be grim. Looking at Manning, things are kind of grim NOW.


The standard's different for us; same reason Decker and Thomas scream for flags they don't get (Welker's apparently just resigned to it) while OUR DBs get flagged if they even look at a receiver.


It's fine whether they "let 'em play" or call it tight as long as they do one or the other CONSISTENTLY, not let ONE team play and call it tight on the OTHER. That's just not a level playing field. Our guys get flagged for PI, Illegal Contact, Defensive Holding or Hitting a Defenseless Receiver if it's even close; meanwhile "the Legion of Boom" is celebrated for (basically) playing like it's 1970 and getting away with it. Vickerson can't even brush ANY QB without a 15 yd penalty and automatic first down when a team should be punting, but defensive linemen can dive at Peyton Mannings ankles as a catch is made and it's fine.

There's just no way we can win a title with officiating this heavily biased against us, and if anyone doubts that: Remember the team we shelled by 4 TDs on their homefield, only to have them beat us on ours in the playoffs just a month later? Was it any surprise when that team "won" the Super Bowl? Rejecting such predetermined popularity contests is why I always preferred the NFL to the SECAA, but the pros are evidently doing their unlevel best to be even worse about it than college ball.

Denver doesn't get flagged any more or less than anyone else.

They have less penalties than their opponents and are in the bottom 10 for penalty yards against.

It's in your, and a lot of other people's heads, and it just frankly isn't true.

[Simple Jaded]

It's not that the Broncos get flagged more or less, it's that they get screwed more than their opponents.

[MOtorboat]

It's not that the Broncos get flagged more or less, it's that they get screwed more than their opponents.

Which is also BS.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Denver doesn't get flagged any more or less than anyone else.

They have less penalties than their opponents and are in the bottom 10 for penalty yards against.

It's in your, and a lot of other people's heads, and it just frankly isn't true.

Where did you get the stats on the penalties? Everywhere I've looked shows we are in the bottom third on penalties per game, penalty yards per game, and penalty yards per penalty

[Simple Jaded]

Which is also BS.

If you say so.

[MOtorboat]

Where did you get the stats on the penalties? Everywhere I've looked shows we are in the bottom third on penalties per game, penalty yards per game, and penalty yards per penalty

Right. And you're not wrong. But there's no damn conspiracy against the Broncos.

[OrangeHoof]

Bottom line is we are 8-1 and really only been scared a couple of times on the road. I don't think we've been unfairly singled out. What I hate is the randomness from week to week or play to play. Consistency is sorely lacking.

I would love to see a chart of # of personal fouls for hitting the QB for/against each team the last two seasons. I'd put money on the Texans having the largest disparity between fouls called on them hitting the QB versus the fewest personal fouls called on their opponents. Matt Schaub couldn't buy a personal foul call except the infamous Joe Mays hit. Even when he'd get cheap-shotted.

[Simple Jaded]

I didn't say there was a conspiracy, I said they're getting screwed more than their opponents.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Right. And you're not wrong. But there's no damn conspiracy against the Broncos.

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying there's a conspiracy against the Broncos, but I've been thinking for weeks that we need to clean up the penalties. It was frustrating today though to watch SD get multiple attempts on third downs.

[MOtorboat]

I didn't say there was a conspiracy, I said they're getting screwed more than their opponents.

Which to me sounds like you're espousing a conspiracy.

[MOtorboat]

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying there's a conspiracy against the Broncos, but I've been thinking for weeks that we need to clean up the penalties. It was frustrating today though to watch SD get multiple attempts on third downs.

I agree. It's on the Broncos, not the refs, to not commit penalties.

[Broncolingus]

Manning won't make it through one more game, let alone seven (or more) at this rate...

...coaches need to get the protection aspects (which have worsened the past several weeks) straight, and Denver is also going to now have to find a way to be more successful running the ball.

Not the second coming of Terrell Davis, just a good solid run game to keep the defense honest and pressure off Manning.

That all needs to happen STARTING next week as KC can rush the passer very good with it's down-four...

I also don't see more/less flags for the Bronco's vs. everyone else on the whole...

JMO, though...

[Joel]

All six of his picks were in four games.
The team has played nine.
All six picks were in the LAST four games; he had NONE in the first four and, fortunately, none today—just the strip-sack that set the Bolts up for an easy TD. Now, one of those turnovers was a deflection, and one was Demaryius falling down, but fully half a dozen of them were getting hit from behind and/or on his throwing arm as he made a pass. It's kind of a big deal that our QB's giving the ball away a lot right now, especially heading into a game against an undefeated division rival whose whopping +15 turnover differential leads the rest of the NFL by a wide margin.


It's not that the Broncos get flagged more or less, it's that they get screwed more than their opponents.
^THAT^ The Bolts alone had FOUR failed third downs saved by penalty today—and two of them weren't even on us; they were procedure calls that saved two blown plays that should've forced a punt. Remember the Rough on Vickerson that sealed Indys win? Or how 'bout the 12 men penalty at the end of the first half against Washington? A 5 yd penalty's fairly minor under MOST circumstances, but that one just happened to be enough for a first down that turned a FG into a TD. Gee, what an amazing coincidence, all the more so because it HAPPENS SO FREAKIN' REGULARLY! I could set my watch by it.

[MOtorboat]

All six picks were in the LAST four games; he had NONE in the first four and, fortunately, none today—just the strip-sack that set the Bolts up for an easy TD. Now, one of those turnovers was a deflection, and one was Demaryius falling down, but fully half a dozen of them were getting hit from behind and/or on his throwing arm as he made a pass. It's kind of a big deal that our QB's giving the ball away a lot right now, especially heading into a game against an undefeated division rival whose whopping +15 turnover differential leads the rest of the NFL by a wide margin.


^THAT^ The Bolts alone had FOUR failed third downs saved by penalty today—and two of them weren't even on us; they were procedure calls that saved two blown plays that should've forced a punt. Remember the Rough on Vickerson that sealed Indys win? Or how 'bout the 12 men penalty at the end of the first half against Washington? A 5 yd penalty's fairly minor under MOST circumstances, but that one just happened to be enough for a first down that turned a FG into a TD. Gee, what an amazing coincidence, all the more so because it HAPPENS SO FREAKIN' REGULARLY! I could set my watch by it.

Right.

So you remember Denver's penalties. Do you remember the opponents penalties? Because Denver has only lost one game, and according to this it's because they got "screwed" on a call, which was a complete legit penalty and idiotic move by Vickerson, not the refs fault.

[701Bronco]

I did not understand the call today for an "illegal snap" on the chargers, which actually helped them out on that drive. Anyone know what that was about?

[Captain Speardog]

Anyone think Clady is overpaid?

[Captain Speardog]

I did not understand the call today for an "illegal snap" on the chargers, which actually helped them out on that drive. Anyone know what that was about?

THat is the worst call ever. The Center can never be flagged for that because when he snaps the ball the play has begun so how can they flag him. The only thing I can think of is that he moved the ball before he snapped it.

[GEM]

I don't think the refs are calling the wrong flags, I think they are missing some huge calls. I think a couple that were called were questionable. That don't upset me, what upsets me is the blatant missed calls.

[Joel]

Right.

So you remember Denver's penalties. Do you remember the opponents penalties? Because Denver has only lost one game, and according to this it's because they got "screwed" on a call, which was a complete legit penalty and idiotic move by Vickerson, not the refs fault.
I personally suspect that's the whole problem: All the SI covers and preseason SB odds convinced the NFL it had to do something to ensure the old "any team can beat any team on any given Sunday" mantra remains true in Denver. Sure, we've won all but one of our games DESPITE the bad calls heavily lopsided toward opponents, but I don't remember ALL of them: Those were just the ones I recalled off the top of my head. Either I remembered every single one, or there are many more I DON'T remember.

It'll be interesting to see how our first game against a team with a better record (and the NFL last unbeaten one) goes, especially since their front seven is likely to sadistically pound the Broncos QB who liimped off the field today after a hit that probably would've gotten Vickerson ejected and suspended. I mean, if KC's goes to 10-0 by dropping us to 8-2, who REALLY needs handicapping?

Between the calls, our line, the resulting injuries to our QB, the inability of our receivers to beat jams even when he can play through the pain to get balls on target and, above all, the brutal KC D forcing obscene amounts of turnovers, I'll sleep a lot better when the next three games are behind us. I may not like the outcomes, but at least I'll be able to stop thinking about them

[Joel]

Anyone think Clady is overpaid?
I guarantee Peyton Manning doesn't. Yet he's one of the biggest reasons we had trouble paying Clady; how's that for irony? Anyone think Elvis Dumervil misses playing for a winning team though? :tongue: Speaking of which, the Saints are pounding the snot out of Dallas right now, so it looks like we're back to being winless against winning teams (since none of the 8 teams we've beaten has a winning record; only one is even .500.) Here's hoping that changes next week, but it's looking scary right now. Irresistible force vs. Immovable object; hopefully we win, and half the team doesn't leave the field on stretchers.

[MOtorboat]

I personally suspect that's the whole problem: All the SI covers and preseason SB odds convinced the NFL it had to do something to ensure the old "any team can beat any team on any given Sunday" mantra remains true in Denver. Sure, we've won all but one of our games DESPITE the bad calls heavily lopsided toward opponents, but I don't remember ALL of them: Those were just the ones I recalled off the top of my head. Either I remembered every single one, or there are many more I DON'T remember.

It'll be interesting to see how our first game against a team with a better record (and the NFL last unbeaten one) goes, especially since their front seven is likely to sadistically pound the Broncos QB who liimped off the field today after a hit that probably would've gotten Vickerson ejected and suspended. I mean, if KC's goes to 10-0 by dropping us to 8-2, who REALLY needs handicapping?

Between the calls, our line, the resulting injuries to our QB, the inability of our receivers to beat jams even when he can play through the pain to get balls on target and, above all, the brutal KC D forcing obscene amounts of turnovers, I'll sleep a lot better when the next three games are behind us. I may not like the outcomes, but at least I'll be able to stop thinking about them

So it's a conspiracy to **** the Broncos.

:tsk:

I apologize in advance, but that's just ******* stupid.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos are currently $10 mil under the salary cap, they didn't struggle to pay Clady whatsoever.

[GEM]

Didn't look to be bothering doom on his sack towards the end of the game today.

[GEM]

So it's a conspiracy to **** the Broncos.

:tsk:

I apologize in advance, but that's just ******* stupid.

Joel is allowed to have his opinion, he isn't staking it as fact. Calm down.

[Simple Jaded]

Which to me sounds like you're espousing a conspiracy.

What does my wife have to do with this?

[DenBronx]

So it's a conspiracy to **** the Broncos.

:tsk:

I apologize in advance, but that's just ******* stupid.


You are so over the top sometimes.


Relax.

[DenBronx]

Am I they only one wondering if our Boy Manning can make it through 7 more games?

He looked like he was in genuine pain at the presser.

I am concerned...



Our OL looks rather bad sometimes.


I have to go back and watch the tape but Manning is constantly getting pressured and it seems like it is mostly from his blindside. They need to mix some things us there, maybe move Franklin to LT.

[MOtorboat]

Joel is allowed to have his opinion, he isn't staking it as fact. Calm down.

Am I allowed to have mine?

[DenBronx]

And isnt JD Walton back now?

[DenBronx]

Am I allowed to have mine?

Certainly but you sort of like to chop everyones head off when they have theirs.

[Simple Jaded]

And isnt JD Walton back now?

Describe "back".

[Timmy!]

Somebody take the midgets whiskey away :D

[DenBronx]

Describe "back".

He's back from injury.


I thought we brought Winston Justice in to give him a try at LT? Clark seems to get beat alot and its caused problems for Manning.

[Ziggy]

Ramirez looked great today. Him and Vasquez were both solid, and opened up some nice running lanes for Moreno. Our tackles had a rough day in general.

[GEM]

Am I allowed to have mine?

You are more than welcome to state yours and to debate his, but its not necessary to tell anyone their opinion is "******* stupid".

No reason to lose your composure.

[MOtorboat]

I apologize Joel.

Your conspiracy here is likely not true, not really supported by any facts and generally ridiculous.

Is that better?

[Simple Jaded]

He's back from injury.


I thought we brought Winston Justice in to give him a try at LT? Clark seems to get beat alot and its caused problems for Manning.

Hell Kuper is back too, I just wouldn't say he's back, back until we see it.

[Simple Jaded]

Ramirez looked great today. Him and Vasquez were both solid, and opened up some nice running lanes for Moreno. Our tackles had a rough day in general.

I think the dude that hit Manning low was Manny's guy.

[Joel]

So it's a conspiracy to **** the Broncos.

:tsk:

I apologize in advance, but that's just ******* stupid.
Not necessarily screw, but possibly normalize. When a team starts the season by tying an offensive record no one's matched in 40 years—against a team that just won a SB on its DEFENSE, no less—well, maybe their opponents get the benefit of a doubt on close calls, but they never will: They're good enough they should be able to win anyway. And good enough their opponents need all the help they can get just to stay in games. As the season progressed and whistling over records increased, so did the bad calls, and the injuries.

C'mon, now, the refs kept the Bolts in the game today with no less than FOUR penalties that saved them from punting; two of those drives ended in TDs and another in an easy FG they still missed. If not for a pass being barely tipped it would've happened a FIFTH time (and the SECOND on just one DRIVE) to give them 1st and G at our 1 and make the TD all but automatic. Take away those calls and the 28-20 nail-biter that left our QB limping off the field after a law, low and UNCALLED hit is a 28-6 rout that Osweiler finishes.

That's even before DB jamming all our WRs 10-15 yds downfield on nearly every play, forcing Manning to hold the ball that much longer despite his poor protection, then take a late/low hit that only gets called when WE'RE on defense. One can accurately claim the two penalties on Vickerson met the letter of a very bad law—but not while simultaneously arguing the late/low hits that leave Manning limping DON'T.

I don't care if they call it loose or tight as long as they do one OR (not AND) the other CONSISTENTLY, but it doesn't seem like they do. That needn't mean a conspiracy to screw us; it could just be a conspiracy to maintain parity By Any Means Necessary. Put it this way: There've been far more 15-1 teams over the years than 16-0. In nearly a century of NFL seasons, exactly 4 unbeaten untied teams have reached a title game—only 1 survived it unbeaten. That may not be a conspiracy against any one team or Goodell consciously playing wine steward to the '72 Dolphins, but the pattern makes it increasingly hard to call coincidence.

All of which, once again, makes next weeks game VERY interesting, because the Chiefs have about as much shot at a perfect season as we do. ;)

[Joel]

I apologize Joel.

Your conspiracy here is likely not true, not really supported by any facts and generally ridiculous.

Is that better?
Infinitely. To be fair, there's an important distinction between calling a STATEMENT stupid (as before) and saying its AUTHOR is. I took no offense, FWIW, but appreciate the efforts of all parties to maintain civility. :)

[DenBronx]

Hell Kuper is back too, I just wouldn't say he's back, back until we see it.

Yeah well cant be any worse than what we got now.

[Joel]

Didn't look to be bothering doom on his sack towards the end of the game today.
Maybe winning the sack title but missing the playoffs will provide Doom consolation when Manning's hoisting his second Lombardi—but I sure hope not.... ;)

[GEM]

I apologize Joel.

Your conspiracy here is likely not true, not really supported by any facts and generally ridiculous.

Is that better?

Actually, yes it is.

[Joel]

Ramirez looked great today. Him and Vasquez were both solid, and opened up some nice running lanes for Moreno. Our tackles had a rough day in general.
Franklin had a sack, but only one, IIRC. The biggest problem, IMHO, is our left side's VERY soft. Since Mathis tore up his old teammates ankle folks have taken advantage of Clark. Beadles is pass blocks okay, and can downfield block people half his size, but gets no push against defensive LINEMEN, and opens more holes INTO our backfield than out of it. I wish we'd stick Dreesen/Green over there to help run and pass blocking, and alternate Welker and Orange Julius on the other side. Maybe some counters and cutbacks starting right, then going left, though even that might not work if defenders can Beadles and Clark every time.

As far as who we have back in what capacity, googling Mannings injury just now turned up this DP article: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24495162/broncos-vs-chargers-live-blog-peyton-manning

Apparently both Walton AND Kuper were inactive today, so looks like Justice was our sixth (and ONLY other) offensive lineman. I can only guess what's going on there; after the strip-sack Simms quoted Fox calling Clark the NFLs best BACKUP tackle, but that only reminded me that 1) Fox is a defensive coach and 2) Justice is a former STARTER who's shut down the likes of Julius Peppers. Clark seems to do okay with bull rushers (e.g. he handled DeMarcus Ware, albeit when Ware was returning from an injury that sidelined him again a few weeks later) but has trouble with fast agile guys (e.g. Mathis.)

I dunno, but if we're gonna dress 4 TEs and only 3 Ts (and NO Gs,) seems like we ought to use a lot more 2TE sets when our QB's getting creamed and our running game isn't moving.

I take it back: I believe we also had Vallos as a backup C, so we wouldn't have been TOTALLY naked if someone got hurt and Justice entered as our only remaining lineman. I don't want to think of being down to Vallos though; nothing against the guy, I just don't want to rest the season on a 7th round pick who's started 10 games in 6 years.

[CrazyHorse]

Am I they only one wondering if our Boy Manning can make it through 7 more games?

He looked like he was in genuine pain at the presser.

I am concerned...

7? We need him to make through at least 10 or 11.

[aberdien]

More importantly, if worse comes to worse, could Osweiler hold down the fort?

[CrazyHorse]

More importantly, if worse comes to worse, could Osweiler hold down the fort?

I heard that Tebow kid has playoff experience.

[OrangeHoof]

I am hoping Denver saved a few surprises for the Chiefs, including some variety of blocking schemes and a little hurry-up. I don't think the Chiefs are a good come-from-behind team (ie overcoming large leads) so getting an early lead can be big.

[Nomad]

You're not allowed to hit the QB below the knees either.

I thought this as well. Manning was chewing out the white hat, but he seemed not to give a crap what Manning was saying.

[Northman]

Am I they only one wondering if our Boy Manning can make it through 7 more games?

.

No, im very concerned. Especially with colder weather coming which can be hard on an aging body.

[Northman]

It can't have been too serious since he stayed in.

That really doesnt mean anything. Sometimes players play through broken bones even if its not the brightest of ideas.

[BroncoWave]

That really doesnt mean anything. Sometimes players play through broken bones even if its not the brightest of ideas.

If Cutler were still our QB I'd be worried that a nagging injury could keep him out. But Manning has literally never missed a game in his career other than for that neck issue. He's very much like Brett Favre in his ability to play through pretty much everything. If he had a broken ankle or torn ligament, I don't think he would have been able to pop up as quickly as he did. I'm really not worried at all about his ability to play next week.

[Captain Speardog]

I think Denver needs to go back to two TE sets a majority of the time. This gives Manning more protection. Welker can take some plays off and wait for Manning to get healthy.

[BroncoWave]

Vic Lombardi tweeted this last night:


he left without a boot. or crutches. or a nurse. so that's positive.

In other words, he will be fine.

[Northman]

Vic Lombardi tweeted this last night:



In other words, he will be fine.


For now. He might not survive the rest of the season.

[BroncoWave]

For now. He might not survive the rest of the season.

Meh, you could say that about any player in the NFL. They are all one hit away from their season ending. It's really not worth worrying about. If it happens it happens, but odds are it won't IMO.

[PatriotsGuy]

He's just doing his best Roethlisberger impersonation. I'm a warrior, I'm so hurt blah blah. He won't miss a snap, even if the Broncos are killing the opponent.

[BroncoWave]

He's just doing his best Roethlisberger impersonation. I'm a warrior, I'm so hurt blah blah. He won't miss a snap, even if the Broncos are killing the opponent.

Well that last part isn't true, because Osweiler has come in at the end of one blowout this season and has come close to coming into a few others.

[PatriotsGuy]

Well that last part isn't true, because Osweiler has come in at the end of one blowout this season and has come close to coming into a few others.

Um, what game because lol and "come close" how did you determine that?

[Dapper Dan]

Um, what game because lol and "come close" how did you determine that?

Probably when Oz starts warming up. That's just a guess though.

[BroncoWave]

Um, what game because lol and "come close" how did you determine that?

Against Philly he came in for the last drive or two and even threw a couple of passes. Against Oakland he was warming up and it was reported later that he was going to come in, but Oakland score late to keep it to within a few scores, so we had to keep in Manning.

[PatriotsGuy]

Probably when Oz starts warming up. That's just a guess though.

wishful thinking on Os's part

[Dzone]

If Oz ever plays, its going to be BOMBS AWAY!!!!:salute:

[SR]

Didn't look to be bothering doom on his sack towards the end of the game today.

That was a beautiful sack too

[SR]

And isnt JD Walton back now?

How many games as a pro has he played left tackle? And how would he solve any problems on the offensive line?

[Ravage!!!]

How many games as a pro has he played left tackle? And how would he solve any problems on the offensive line?

That would be a bad idea. I don't think Walton, moving from Center, would be the guy to move to LT. There is a reason he's center.

But I do think that if he's ready to play, and play better than our current center, that thinks could be shifted. But I don't know. Could we move our current center to guard, Vasquez to LT? That sounds horrible to me as well. What about Kuper, where is he?

It's interesting that people were saying that Clady wasn't worth the money we paid him, yet, look where we are without him.

[atwater27]

I hate to rain on some of your parades, but we didn't sign Osweiler to a 5 year, 96 million dollar deal. I wonder why?

[Army Bronco]

How many games as a pro has he played left tackle? And how would he solve any problems on the offensive line?

That would be a bad idea. I don't think Walton, moving from Center, would be the guy to move to LT. There is a reason he's center.

But I do think that if he's ready to play, and play better than our current center, that thinks could be shifted. But I don't know. Could we move our current center to guard, Vasquez to LT? That sounds horrible to me as well. What about Kuper, where is he?

It's interesting that people were saying that Clady wasn't worth the money we paid him, yet, look where we are without him.I think with Clady we would be 9-0 easy with at least 3 less fumbles on the year.

[Lancane]

While some on here are quick to dismiss his injuries, I for one am not. I've had the same neck procedures as Manning and even at the best of times there is a level of chronic pain that doesn't dull without medication and even those that are not considered opiates have side effects that can cause some internal harm, and you can damn well guarantee that he's on a carefully watched regiment of medication. Now I know some are saying 'What does that have to do with anything?', but if you throw in his age and the wear and tear on his body from years playing the sport, each injury could be one too many for him. Let's say that the ankle injury is nothing but a bruise, next week we'll face one of the better defensive units, a unit known for getting to the quarterback more often than not - he'll already be sore and wary because his blindside is meekly protected, he'll be overly cautious and that could hinder the offense. San Diego like Jacksonville and Dallas were getting after him and that has shown to be a pretty big weakness, against a team like the Chiefs or Texans who are among the best at pressuring the passer? They have the ability to do far more damage then simply winning a football game, one ACL Tear or Broken Collarbone and the season will be pretty much be all for nothing because this team was built to win and that injury could play a factor in Manning's decision to return or not return the following season...after all there is only so much one can endure.

So am I worried? Yeah, big time. And I lay the blame where it belongs - on the front office. I know I will rile some feathers with that comment, but it is true. Elway and company committed a knee-jerk reaction by extending Chris Clark, knowing that he wasn't the answer they tried to inquire about All-Pro Joe Thomas which would have been costly, but maybe better then watching their four year window, multi-million dollar investment to win it all now blow up in their faces. Point is that they knew that the left tackle spot was in serious straits and did little to fix it, instead the tight end took blame by local media and yet the numbers support that Clark is a serious liability to both the offense and the health of their starting quarterback.

I have no doubt that Osweiler can come in and lead us to more wins then losses, but lead them to the pinnacle prize? I am not so sure. But Clark would still be protecting the blindside and add in Brock's lack of experience? It could lead to even more disaster. If I was the VP Joe Ellis or Executive VP of Football Operations John Elway, I'd be giving tryouts to any free agent tackles with left tackle experience, that is about the only chance I see of fixing the issue at this point. But if this continues as it has the last three or four weeks?

[Lancane]

That would be a bad idea. I don't think Walton, moving from Center, would be the guy to move to LT. There is a reason he's center.

But I do think that if he's ready to play, and play better than our current center, that thinks could be shifted. But I don't know. Could we move our current center to guard, Vasquez to LT? That sounds horrible to me as well. What about Kuper, where is he?

It's interesting that people were saying that Clady wasn't worth the money we paid him, yet, look where we are without him.

Of course it's worth it and the loss of Clady is showing itself more each week.

[BroncoWave]

wishful thinking on Os's part

Except you are ignoring the part about him actually playing and throwing passes against Philly.

[BroncoWave]

That would be a bad idea. I don't think Walton, moving from Center, would be the guy to move to LT. There is a reason he's center.

But I do think that if he's ready to play, and play better than our current center, that thinks could be shifted. But I don't know. Could we move our current center to guard, Vasquez to LT? That sounds horrible to me as well. What about Kuper, where is he?

It's interesting that people were saying that Clady wasn't worth the money we paid him, yet, look where we are without him.

PFF gave Manny Ramirez their second highest grade in the NFL at center in their midseason report. We aren't moving him from center.

[BigDaddyBronco]

A lot of talk about the loss of Clady and our tackles sucking in general, but wasn't Manning hurt both times by a rush up the middle? I know in the game yesterday that Manny and Beadles both let their guys get through and Manning took a shot in the legs from Liguit (sp?). Yea, Clark and Franklin have been letting him get strip-sacked, but he is getting the leg shots from the rush up the middle.

[CoachChaz]

Our problems seem to be more at the tackle spots than in the middle. That isnt too much of a problem with a pocket passer like Manning and we are still at the bottom of the list on sacks allowed. The issue we have is that we dont have a QB that can take the knock downs. If you tell any other QB in the NFL that he'd only be sacked 13 times in 9 games...he's happy. And most likely, he can survive the knock downs as well. But with Peyton, our OL literally has to be perfect and I think that is a bit much to ask. If we had a younger guy under center that could weather the hits better...this would be a non issue.

[TXBRONC]

While some on here are quick to dismiss his injuries, I for one am not. I've had the same neck procedures as Manning and even at the best of times there is a level of chronic pain that doesn't dull without medication and even those that are not considered opiates have side effects that can cause some internal harm, and you can damn well guarantee that he's on a carefully watched regiment of medication. Now I know some are saying 'What does that have to do with anything?', but if you throw in his age and the wear and tear on his body from years playing the sport, each injury could be one too many for him. Let's say that the ankle injury is nothing but a bruise, next week we'll face one of the better defensive units, a unit known for getting to the quarterback more often than not - he'll already be sore and wary because his blindside is meekly protected, he'll be overly cautious and that could hinder the offense. San Diego like Jacksonville and Dallas were getting after him and that has shown to be a pretty big weakness, against a team like the Chiefs or Texans who are among the best at pressuring the passer? They have the ability to do far more damage then simply winning a football game, one ACL Tear or Broken Collarbone and the season will be pretty much be all for nothing because this team was built to win and that injury could play a factor in Manning's decision to return or not return the following season...after all there is only so much one can endure.

So am I worried? Yeah, big time. And I lay the blame where it belongs - on the front office. I know I will rile some feathers with that comment, but it is true. Elway and company committed a knee-jerk reaction by extending Chris Clark, knowing that he wasn't the answer they tried to inquire about All-Pro Joe Thomas which would have been costly, but maybe better then watching their four year window, multi-million dollar investment to win it all now blow up in their faces. Point is that they knew that the left tackle spot was in serious straits and did little to fix it, instead the tight end took blame by local media and yet the numbers support that Clark is a serious liability to both the offense and the health of their starting quarterback.

I have no doubt that Osweiler can come in and lead us to more wins then losses, but lead them to the pinnacle prize? I am not so sure. But Clark would still be protecting the blindside and add in Brock's lack of experience? It could lead to even more disaster. If I was the VP Joe Ellis or Executive VP of Football Operations John Elway, I'd be giving tryouts to any free agent tackles with left tackle experience, that is about the only chance I see of fixing the issue at this point. But if this continues as it has the last three or four weeks?

I won't blow it off. His neck isn't issue but like said I know when a person has neck or back they're never the same again. He's not same player physically that he was back in his prime so blowing off the injuries a 37 year old quarterback doesn't make sense to me.

[Lancane]

Our problems seem to be more at the tackle spots than in the middle. That isnt too much of a problem with a pocket passer like Manning and we are still at the bottom of the list on sacks allowed. The issue we have is that we dont have a QB that can take the knock downs. If you tell any other QB in the NFL that he'd only be sacked 13 times in 9 games...he's happy. And most likely, he can survive the knock downs as well. But with Peyton, our OL literally has to be perfect and I think that is a bit much to ask. If we had a younger guy under center that could weather the hits better...this would be a non issue.

I partly agree with your assessment Coach, but the whole of the line is not the issue compared to the weakness of the blindside IMHO. Yeah, a younger, healthier quarterback may be alright with that sack total thus far, but not with his backside having a glowing red target, of all the offensive line positions to be weak at, as you know - the blindside is the worst and being hit from that side has caused more career ending injuries then some can possibly fathom, because the quarterback literally at times can be unaware as to the hit about to be laid on them, and as you stated - Manning isn't really at the shape to be hit like that. And despite the sack totals, you're not accounting for knockdowns which can be just as harmful to his health.

[PatriotsGuy]

Except you are ignoring the part about him actually playing and throwing passes against Philly.

And you're ignoring the many other games that were well in hand. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if he stays in until the end, my only point was that he won't miss a snap and this is mostly lip service.

[atwater27]

Our defense in some of those games was not exactly allowing us to comfortably sit him.

[Joel]

That would be a bad idea. I don't think Walton, moving from Center, would be the guy to move to LT. There is a reason he's center.

But I do think that if he's ready to play, and play better than our current center, that thinks could be shifted. But I don't know. Could we move our current center to guard, Vasquez to LT? That sounds horrible to me as well. What about Kuper, where is he?

It's interesting that people were saying that Clady wasn't worth the money we paid him, yet, look where we are without him.
Ramirez was such an awful G I'm stunned by what a good C he's been (though the DP article Carol linked on Mannings MRI confirmed Ramirez had the block on Liuget.) MUCH better than Walton, IMHO. Vasquez is the only G we've got who can run block at the line, so needs to stay put if at all possible; we saw how well moving him to T worked when Franklin went down: Instead of a below average RT we had a below average RT AND RG. Maybe Kuper's healthier now (I certainly hope so, for many reasons,) but he's never open holes or provided the push our running game needs; he's a better pass than run blocker (like Beadles.)

Yes, Clady was always worth it, and with the trade deadline behind us I see no real solutions to his absence; the only people we can sign are those bad enough others release them. Justice is the guy I'd bet on, since he's a former starter and has had success against elite pass rushers, but evidently the coaches disagree because Clark's still starting, which speaks volumes on how good they think our backups are in general.

[Joel]

Our problems seem to be more at the tackle spots than in the middle. That isnt too much of a problem with a pocket passer like Manning and we are still at the bottom of the list on sacks allowed. The issue we have is that we dont have a QB that can take the knock downs. If you tell any other QB in the NFL that he'd only be sacked 13 times in 9 games...he's happy. And most likely, he can survive the knock downs as well. But with Peyton, our OL literally has to be perfect and I think that is a bit much to ask. If we had a younger guy under center that could weather the hits better...this would be a non issue.
That's misleading because the line did such a fine job protecting Manning AND opening Grand Canyon holes for Moreno and the rest—until we lost Clady for the year. Our pass and run blocking have progressively declined since. It's kind of like the "our record scoring pace proves all is well!" schtick. Yeah, because we pasted all but one of our first five opponents for >40 pts (on two occasions, >50.) Since then? 28 pts against SDs strictly average (if that) defense. Against the awful 'Skins and Colts Ds our offense scored nearly as much for them as for us! THIS is the offensive juggernaut that will annihilate the league?

[JPPT1974]

No tear in the MRI. As he wants to play as well. Hope it will not affect him at all. As glad he is OK. But may need to get a second opinion though.

[Dzone]

We are going to see Osweiler Sunday night anyway after we get up by 35 points by the 3rd quarter

[Joel]

We are going to see Osweiler Sunday night anyway after we get up by 35 points by the 3rd quarter
I'd like to believe we'll score more in three quarters than Dallas or Philly managed in four, but I doubt it. Their run D is soft, but their pass rush is brutal and forces turnovers; our line is so soft our running is weak and they let teams force lots of turnovers from Manning. It's a perfect storm and KCs defense could easily score more points than EITHER teams offense; that's been their hallmark for 9 games so far. We can call that a lucky streak, but 9 straight games is a pretty long streak for mere luck. I hope we give Clark some TE help in run AND pass blocking (i.e. start Dreesen, Green or Tamme ahead of Thomas.) Max protect FTW.

[SR]

No tear in the MRI. As he wants to play as well. Hope it will not affect him at all. As glad he is OK. But may need to get a second opinion though.

He doesn't need a second opinion for an ankle sprain. He needs to take it easy and rest this week as much as possible because his right foot determines the accuracy and zip on the ball. If he can't plant and rotate his hips his passes will be all over the map like they were against the Skins.

[MOtorboat]

I'd like to believe we'll score more in three quarters than Dallas or Philly managed in four, but I doubt it. Their run D is soft, but their pass rush is brutal and forces turnovers; our line is so soft our running is weak and they let teams force lots of turnovers from Manning. It's a perfect storm and KCs defense could easily score more points than EITHER teams offense; that's been their hallmark for 9 games so far. We can call that a lucky streak, but 9 straight games is a pretty long streak for mere luck. I hope we give Clark some TE help in run AND pass blocking (i.e. start Dreesen, Green or Tamme ahead of Thomas.) Max protect's your friend.

You worry too much.

They are good, but they aren't the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears. And their offense is down right pathetic.

[Joel]

You worry too much.

They are good, but they aren't the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears. And their offense is down right pathetic.
So were the 2000 Ravens and 1985 Bears offenses; their defenses were good enough it didn't matter. As it happens, in this season where everyone talks about what our offense is "on pace" to do, the Chiefs D is on pace to allow exactly as many points as the '85 Bears: 198. It's actually a decent comparison: Aggressive, smothering D, a great back, a mediocre QB and not much else; the Chiefs receiving corps may even be better (but Chicago had a better line.) The difference is the average offense scores a LOT more than 30 years ago, so allowing just 198 pts is more impressive.

If we still had Clady I wouldn't worry; I never expect Beadles to block actual linemen as well as he does safeties and LBs, but he pass blocks okay, and the line as a whole opened holes and got push when Clady was there. But now he's not, and won't be till next year, which leaves us with a problem. We can't just run right behind our solid RG and road-grading RT, because other teams know our strengths and weaknesses, too. We also can't afford to have our QB repeatedly blindsided and carted off the field before the Chiefs (or anyone) take the resulting fumble/Int on a 10 yd TD "drive;" even KCs offense can manage THAT.

[MOtorboat]

So were the 2000 Ravens and 1985 Bears offenses; their defenses were good enough it didn't matter. As it happens, in this season where everyone talks about what our offense is "on pace" to do, the Chiefs D is on pace to allow exactly as many points as the '85 Bears: 198. It's actually a decent comparison: Aggressive, smothering D, a great back, a mediocre QB and not much else; the Chiefs receiving corps may even be better (but Chicago had a better line.) The difference is the average offense scores a LOT more than 30 years ago, so allowing just 198 pts is more impressive.

If we still had Clady I wouldn't worry; I never expect Beadles to block actual linemen as well as he does safeties and LBs, but he pass blocks okay, and the line as a whole opened holes and got push when Clady was there. But now he's not, and won't be till next year, which leaves us with a problem. We can't just run right behind our solid RG and road-grading RT, because other teams know our strengths and weaknesses, too. We also can't afford to have our QB repeatedly blindsided and carted off the field before the Chiefs (or anyone) take the resulting fumble/Int on a 10 yd TD "drive;" even KCs offense can manage THAT.

I guess I'm just not that worried at all. They can't score with Denver and basically the only chance they have to win is to get a turnover or two. Denver wins because they are a solid football team, IMO. Remember all those "opportunistic" Denver squads that were so high in turnover margin early in the season only to get exposed. That's the Chiefs.

[Joel]

I guess I'm just not that worried at all. They can't score with Denver and basically the only chance they have to win is to get a turnover or two. Denver wins because they are a solid football team, IMO. Remember all those "opportunistic" Denver squads that were so high in turnover margin early in the season only to get exposed. That's the Chiefs.
Except it's not early in the season anymore: It's week 10 and they've been doing it for two and a half months without a break. No, their offense can't keep up with ours; it couldn't keep up with Dallas' or Phillys either: It didn't have to, because their D forced 7 turnovers. Dallas even held Jamaal Charles to 55 yards on 16 carries, but it didn't matter because Alex Smith ran for 57 on just 8. Teams run up and down the field on KC? Sure; LeSean McCoy had 158 yards, and Michael Vick had another 99 in just FOUR carries: They still lost by two scores.

The way our line's blocking (or NOT blocking, more to the point) and Manning's hobbling I'm worried EVERY week now, but in this case most of the next matchup favors KC.

They get to QBs; we can't protect ours.
They force turnovers; we commit them (in both cases, mainly for the preceding reason.)
They're weak vs. the run; we run poorly (again, largely because of our line.)
They only run well; we defend the run well.

That last case is pretty much the only one where we have a clear advantage rather than disadvantage, and even if we win it'll be purey Pyrrhic if we lose Manning for any length of time.

[MOtorboat]

Except it's not early in the season anymore: It's week 10 and they've been doing it for two and a half months without a break. No, their offense can't keep up with ours; it couldn't keep up with Dallas' or Phillys either: It didn't have to, because their D forced 7 turnovers. Dallas even held Jamaal Charles to 55 yards on 16 carries, but it didn't matter because Alex Smith ran for 57 on just 8. Team run up and down the field on KC? Sure; LeSean McCoy had 158 yards, and Michael Vick had another 99 in just FOUR carries: They still lost by two scores.

The way our line's blocking (or NOT blocking, more to the point) and Manning's hobbling I'm worried EVERY week now, but in this case most of the next matchup favors KC.

They get to QBs; we can't protect ours.
They force turnovers; we commit them (in both cases, mainly for the preceding reason.)
They're weak vs. the run; we run poorly (again, largely because of our line.)
They only run well; we defend the run well.

That last case is pretty much the only one where we have a clear advantage rather than disadvantage, and even if we win it'll be purey Pyrrhic if we lose Manning for any length of time.

Philadelphia and Dallas suck. So I really don't care.

[Joel]

Philadelphia and Dallas suck. So I really don't care.
Except, presumably, when starting threads about us scoring 97 pts more than Dallas, the next most prolific scorer. FACT: Their OFFENSES don't suck—except when playing KC. Facts are stubborn things.

[MOtorboat]

Except, presumably, when starting threads about us scoring 97 pts more than Dallas, the next most prolific scorer. FACT: Their OFFENSES don't suck—except when playing KC. Facts are stubborn things.

Yes they are.

Which cherry-picked stat/fact would you like me to pull to counter this?

[Joel]

Yes they are.

Which cherry-picked stat/fact would you like me to pull to counter this?
They're second in the league in scoring, behind only the team (formerly) on a record setting pace: How do they "suck"? It's cherry-picking to say KCs D is only good because they faced three backup QBs in the last month; Romo's not a backup, and neither is Vick, yet KC shut them down just as effectively.

[MOtorboat]

They're second in the league in scoring, behind only the team (formerly) on a record setting pace: How do they "suck"? It's cherry-picking to say KCs D is only good because they faced three backup QBs in the last month; Romo's not a backup, and neither is Vick, yet KC shut them down just as effectively.

Well, they are 5-5 and just got their ass handed to them on national TV.

Denver is 8-1, which you have obviously missed.

[Joel]

Well, they are 5-5 and just got their ass handed to them on national TV.

Denver is 8-1, which you have obviously missed.
I'm aware of both; I'M not the one patting Denver on the back for outperforming Dallas. Let's see how we and KC do against winning teams; that's far more relevant to the AFCW race than any NFC team is.

[CrazyHorse]

Except it's not early in the season anymore: It's week 10 and they've been doing it for two and a half months without a break. No, their offense can't keep up with ours; it couldn't keep up with Dallas' or Phillys either: It didn't have to, because their D forced 7 turnovers. Dallas even held Jamaal Charles to 55 yards on 16 carries, but it didn't matter because Alex Smith ran for 57 on just 8. Team run up and down the field on KC? Sure; LeSean McCoy had 158 yards, and Michael Vick had another 99 in just FOUR carries: They still lost by two scores.

The way our line's blocking (or NOT blocking, more to the point) and Manning's hobbling I'm worried EVERY week now, but in this case most of the next matchup favors KC.

They get to QBs; we can't protect ours.
They force turnovers; we commit them (in both cases, mainly for the preceding reason.)
They're weak vs. the run; we run poorly (again, largely because of our line.)
They only run well; we defend the run well.

That last case is pretty much the only one where we have a clear advantage rather than disadvantage, and even if we win it'll be purey Pyrrhic if we lose Manning for any length of time.

All we need to do is run two tight end sets with lots of screens and play action. Put Green on the left side and Welker out on some plays. That should do enough to slow down the pass rush. Moreno needs to have a big game both rushing and receiving. As far as defensively just play press coverage and stack the box. Force them to take chances deep. They don't have an explosive offense so if they get behind they'll be in trouble.

[Joel]

All we need to do is run two tight end sets with lots of screens and play action. Put Green on the left side and Welker out on some plays. That should do enough to slow down the pass rush. Moreno needs to have a big game both rushing and receiving. As far as defensively just play press coverage and stack the box. Force them to take chances deep. They don't have an explosive offense so if they get behind they'll be in trouble.
That's basically what I'm thinking, except I'd rather start Dreesen than Green (unless you mean start BOTH of them,) because that puts KC to the guess: They can't just ASSUME Dreesen will stay in to block OR go out for a pass, because he does both well. Rotate him with either Tamme or Green, depending on how bad the rush gets, and rotate Welker with Orange Julius on the other, because guys who can stay with Welker can't tackle Thomas, and guys who can tackle Thomas can't stay with Welker.

We definitely need a big day running against a poor run D, but our line's not good enough for that without solid TE blocking. They won't bite on play action if the run game never gels; they'll just sell out on the pass and figure being wrong costs them nothing since our running isn't hurting them anyway. I'm a little nervous about those bubble screens against a 3-4, too, because LBs are faster than DEs, and 3-4 OLBs are in the perfect spot to break up a screen. Of course, the real point of the screen isn't to bust long plays but to deter the whole D sprinting toward the QB, so if it does that job it's worth a few lost yards.

[CrazyHorse]

That's basically what I'm thinking, except I'd rather start Dreesen than Green (unless you mean start BOTH of them,) because that puts KC to the guess: They can't just ASSUME Dreesen will stay in to block OR go out for a pass, because he does both well. Rotate him with either Tamme or Green, depending on how bad the rush gets, and rotate Welker with Orange Julius on the other, because guys who can stay with Welker can't tackle Thomas, and guys who can tackle Thomas can't stay with Welker.

We definitely need a big day running against a poor run D, but our line's not good enough for that without solid TE blocking. They won't bite on play action if the run game never gels; they'll just sell out on the pass and figure being wrong costs them nothing since our running isn't hurting them anyway. I'm a little nervous about those bubble screens against a 3-4, too, because LBs are faster than DEs, and 3-4 OLBs are in the perfect spot to break up a screen. Of course, the real point of the screen isn't to bust long plays but to deter the whole D sprinting toward the QB, so if it does that job it's worth a few lost yards.

Yeah Dressen is probably a better start than Green. J.Thomas needs to start too though.

[BroncoNut]

Am I they only one wondering if our Boy Manning can make it through 7 more games?

He looked like he was in genuine pain at the presser.

I am concerned...

I didn't see the presser, but you're not the only one concerned on this. Osweiler needs some reps. seems like Manning's wheels are starting to come off, even after the bye

[Joel]

Yeah Dressen is probably a better start than Green. J.Thomas needs to start too though.
Starting both of them makes sense; I still like rotating Welker with Thomas to mess with match ups even more, though of course the D can also substitute when we do. I honestly don't know enough about Tamme as a blocker to say whether I'd prefer him or Green rotating with Dreesen; if he's at least a decent blocker though I'd prefer that, because Sunday was the first catch I've seen Green make. The beauty of legit TEs is that teams can't safely assume he's a blocker OR runner, which is often loss as fans ooh and ah ever more over pure receiving TEs. A TE is neither a big receiver nor a fast tackle: He's a receiving blocker.

If we played real TEs we'd have the multi-option matchup challenging receivers AND solid pass and run blocking at need. The problem is so many teams get suckered into TEs who only do one or the other.

[Joel]

I didn't see the presser, but you're not the only one concerned on this. Osweiler needs some reps. seems like Manning's wheels are starting to come off, even after the bye
One oft neglected downside of PFMs notorious work ethic is his backups rarely get much practice time with the first team; he drills them over and over until they collapse. Maybe if he takes a few days off to heal his ankles Osweiler can get some of that time, though at this point I doubt 2-3 days will make much difference either way. Come next weekend he'll either be ready or he won't; hopefuly we won't need him: We have to play them again in just two weeks, and get through a road game against the Cheatriots first. Two of those teams will probably get playoff byes, and one of them is probably NE; the AFC runner up plays on the road.

One of the things that struck me at the start of the season about the parallels between the '97 Broncos and this team was that, not only were they coming off a demoralizing first round playoff shocker despite a 13-3 record and homefield throughout the playoffs, but their 12-4 finish was only good enough for a wildcard the following year: We had to go on the road, and ultimately through KC, to reach the AFCCG and win the SB with our 37 year old QB. I'm not promising history will repeat itself, and our line WAS much better (and our QB more mobile) then, but a wildcard wouldn't doom us.

[MOtorboat]

Julius Thomas has 42 catches for 547 yards and 9 touchdowns in 9 games.

Dreesen has never had those numbers in an entire season in 7 full seasons.

Facts are stubborn things.

[Joel]

Julius Thomas has 42 catches for 547 yards and 9 touchdowns in 9 games.

Dreesen has never had those numbers in an entire season in 7 full seasons.

Facts are stubborn things.
Dreesen's not as good a receiver as Orange Julius, but that's not the point. He did have 41 catches and 5 TDs last year, 28 for 353 and 6 TDs in just 10 starts the previous year and 36 for 518 and 4 TDs in just 11 starts the year before that. And that was as the #2, because Pro Bowl TE Owen Daniels is Houstons starter. That's not, again, to say Dreesen's as good a receiver, because he's clearly not—but he is VERY good.

If that were the SOLE difference Julius Thomas would still be the preferred starter; stellar>very good. Yet it's not the only difference, because Dreesen's a MUCH better blocker, by a MUCH wider margin than Thomas is a better receiver. If we still had a line that was giving Moreno >5 yards per carry and PFM had only been sacked a couple times while throwing NO picks in 5 games, Thomas would still be preferable.

That's not where we are anymore though, is it? I'm fully confident DT, Welker, Decker, Moreno and Dreesen can shred KCs secondary just fine without Orange Julius' help; I'm far less confident Clark, Beadles, Ramirez, Vasquez, Franklin and Moreno can blow holes in their run D and keep Manning vertical without Dreesens. We're not paying the crappy 'Skins, Colts or Bolts D this week, and KC's read our injury report (not that it makes their gameplan any different than what it's been for the past three months.)

I genuinely don't get it. Do you think PFM's indestructible, that our line's going to magically improve a lot in five days, or just that the Chiefs pass rush isn't legit? Because they didn't get to Buffalo? I was sorry to see Erik Pears go when he left, and am doubly so now, but rookie Cordy Glenn's been a standout at LT so far; I'd trade Clark for either in a heartbeat.

[MOtorboat]

Dreesen's not as good a receiver as Orange Julius, but that's not the point. He did have 41 catches and 5 TDs last year, 28 for 353 and 6 TDs in just 10 starts the previous year and 36 for 518 and 4 TDs in just 11 starts the year before that. And that was as the #2, because Pro Bowl TE Owen Daniels is Houstons starter. That's not, again, to say Dreesen's as good a receiver, because he's clearly not—but he is VERY good.

If that were the SOLE difference Julius Thomas would still be the preferred starter; stellar>very good. Yet it's not the only difference, because Dreesen's a MUCH better blocker, by a MUCH wider margin than Thomas is a better receiver. If we still had a line that was giving Moreno >5 yards per carry and PFM had only been sacked a couple times while throwing NO picks in 5 games, Thomas would still be preferable.

That's not where we are anymore though, is it? I'm fully confident DT, Welker, Decker, Moreno and Dreesen can shred KCs secondary just fine without Orange Julius' help; I'm far less confident Clark, Beadles, Ramirez, Vasquez, Franklin and Moreno can blow holes in their run D and keep Manning vertical without Dreesens. We're not paying the crappy 'Skins, Colts or Bolts D this week, and KC's read our injury report (not that it makes their gameplan any different than what it's been for the past three months.)

I genuinely don't get it. Do you think PFM's indestructible, that our line's going to magically improve a lot in five days, or just that the Chiefs pass rush isn't legit? Because they didn't get to Buffalo? I was sorry to see Erik Pears go when he left, and am doubly so now, but rookie Cordy Glenn's been a standout at LT so far; I'd trade Clark for either in a heartbeat.

You're the master at throwing one stone and opening up two holes.

Remove from the lineup one of the reasons Denver has the best offense in the NFL. Insert offensive formation, alignment and personnel grouping team has not used the entire season. Expect perfection.

[Ziggy]

Julius is putting up great numbers. However if Manning continues get battered, the Broncos are going to be going into the playoffs with Oz at the helm. I have no problem with Dreesen starting and OJ playing the #2 TE spot. I'd gladly give up 7 points or so per game to help keep Peyton upright and improve the running game.

[MOtorboat]

Julius is putting up great numbers. However if Manning continues get battered, the Broncos are going to be going into the playoffs with Oz at the helm. I have no problem with Dreesen starting and OJ playing the #2 TE spot. I'd gladly give up 7 points or so per game to help keep Peyton upright and improve the running game.

I just don't think there's any guarantee that Manning doesn't get hit if it's Dreesen or Thomas, so just keep Thomas in there, because that keeps the scoring part clicking.

[Captain Speardog]

He's just doing his best Roethlisberger impersonation. I'm a warrior, I'm so hurt blah blah. He won't miss a snap, even if the Broncos are killing the opponent.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/152/237/zP10f.gif

[Joel]

I just don't think there's any guarantee that Manning doesn't get hit if it's Dreesen or Thomas, so just keep Thomas in there, because that keeps the scoring part clicking.
There's no guarantee he doesn't get hit with Clady in there, or that Dreesen won't bust a pass for a 74 yd TD—but both are a lot less likely than with Thomas. If we can run (and if KCs D has an Achilles heel, that's it) Manning will get hit far less anyway, but he's far less likely to get hit in general with a TE who's a quality blocker AND receiver than with one who's just a really great receiver. If catches are all that matter, why not bench Dreesen and Green altogether and just make Caldwell or Holliday our #2 "TE"?

It's not like our offense is utterly dependent on Julius Thomas; we've still got two Pro Bowl WRs, another pretty good one, Moreno running AND receiving, plus Dreesen, a guy who's averaged >300 yds and 5 TDs the last three seasons. There's only ONE person on whom our offense is utterly dependent, and when he's already hobbling around rushing wobbly short throws and getting strip-sacked Thomas' receiving edge over Dreesen isn't worth giving him that same non-protection now that we're facing the leagues top D instead of strictly average ones.

[MOtorboat]

There's no guarantee he doesn't get hit with Clady in there, or that Dreesen won't bust a pass for a 74 yd TD—but both are a lot less likely than with Thomas. If we can run (and if KCs D has an Achilles heel, that's it) Manning will get hit far less anyway, but he's far less likely to get hit in general with a TE who's a quality blocker AND receiver than with one who's just a really great receiver. If catches are all that matter, why not bench Dreesen and Green altogether and just make Caldwell or Holliday our #2 "TE"?

It's not like our offense is utterly dependent on Julius Thomas; we've still got two Pro Bowl WRs, another pretty good one, Moreno running AND receiving, plus Dreesen, a guy who's averaged >300 yds and 5 TDs the last three seasons. There's only ONE person on whom our offense is utterly dependent, and when he's already hobbling around rushing wobbly short throws and getting strip-sacked Thomas' receiving edge over Dreesen isn't worth giving him that same non-protection now that we're facing the leagues top D instead of strictly average ones.

The way to keep the Kansas City defense off Manning is the short throws to Julius Thomas and Welker, not MORE protection. More protection is just scared football.

[Dapper Dan]

The way to keep the Kansas City defense off Manning is the short throws to Julius Thomas and Welker, not MORE protection. More protection is just scared football.

The condom has a hole in it and your solution is to stick it in deeper?

[MOtorboat]

The condom has a hole in it and your solution is to stick it in deeper?

That's not necessarily a good analogy.

Three and five step drops neutralize aggressive front sevens, so quick hits (which Denver is EXTREMELY good at) are the answer, not MORE protection on the offensive line and less options in receiving patterns. You force them to jump routes and ultimately hit middle to possibly deep passes on simple pass plays.

What Denver shouldn't be doing is dropping back into seven step drops and trying to run deep crosses and go routes with a pass rush like Kansas City's, even if they do keep in seven or eight to protect.

[Pudge]

The condom has a hole in it and your solution is to stick it in deeper?

I agree with Mo, don't give them time to get there and let them burn them with yards after catch, but I love the way you worded that

[Joel]

The way to keep the Kansas City defense off Manning is the short throws to Julius Thomas and Welker, not MORE protection. More protection is just scared football.
We've been trying that about a month now; our QB wound up with TWO sprained ankles, and even with a week off to heal quick short throws protected him so well Sunday he needed an MRI Monday to let him know if he could play next week. That's with SDs best pass rusher playing for US now; the Chiefs rush is MUCH better than anyone we've faced yet, and a fourth fast LB starting may complicate bubble screens. We have threads asking where the deep ball went and a QB whose ankles are taped so tightly he probably can't feel his feet. That solution isn't working.

By the way, remember who caught the game tying TD against Washington? Joel Dreesen. He wasn't even covered; I personally think Washington thought he was in to block on a run from 1 yd out on 4th down, and were completely caught off guard when he went out for the pass. That's the difference between a TE and a fast tackle or big receiver: Defenses never know what he'll do if he does both well.

[Dapper Dan]

I agree with Mo, don't give them time to get there and let them burn them with yards after catch, but I love the way you worded that

I agree with him too. I just have to make posts like this since bronconut isn't around anymore. :tsk: RIP, nut :dead:

[MOtorboat]

We've been trying that about a month now; our QB wound up with TWO sprained ankles, and even with a week off to heal quick short throws protected him so well Sunday he needed an MRI Monday to let him know if he could play next week. That's with SDs best pass rusher playing for US now; the Chiefs rush is MUCH better than anyone we've faced yet, and a fourth fast LB starting may complicate bubble screens. We have threads asking where the deep ball went and a QB whose ankles are taped so tightly he probably can't feel his feet. That solution isn't working.

By the way, remember who caught the game tying TD against Washington? Joel Dreesen. He wasn't even covered; I personally think Washington thought he was in to block on a run from 1 yd out on 4th down, and were completely caught off guard when he went out for the pass. That's the difference between a TE and a fast tackle or big receiver: Defenses never know what he'll do if he does both well.

First of all, it was one play. And on that one play where he got hurt. Dreesen doesn't solve the problem. Thomas stays in to block and stiffs his man while Ramirez gets pile-drived right back into Manning.

[Ziggy]

The way to keep the Kansas City defense off Manning is the short throws to Julius Thomas and Welker, not MORE protection. More protection is just scared football.

Mo, sooner or later the Broncos are going to have to be able to run the ball to win. Not only does it help close out games, it helps Manning stay healthy. I don't think that anyone will argue that Dreesen is huge upgrade in the run game, and in pass protection. The Broncos are averaging a pitiful 3.7 yards/carry, and Manning is getting battered. Winter is coming, and the passing game will suffer. Being one dimensional on offense is not a good formula for the playoffs, regardless of how good that one dimension is. Ask the 2007 Pats. As good as this offense is, it has 2 Achilles heel's right now. QB protection and running game. Give me 10 points less/game and a healthy Manning for the playoffs. The current scoring numbers are sexy, but it's time to address the 2 elephants in the room.

[MOtorboat]

Mo, sooner or later the Broncos are going to have to be able to run the ball to win. Not only does it help close out games, it helps Manning stay healthy. I don't think that anyone will argue that Dreesen is huge upgrade in the run game, and in pass protection. The Broncos are averaging a pitiful 3.7 yards/carry, and Manning is getting battered. Winter is coming, and the passing game will suffer. Being one dimensional on offense is not a good formula for the playoffs, regardless of how good that one dimension is. Ask the 2007 Pats. As good as this offense is, it has 2 Achilles heel's right now. QB protection and running game. Give me 10 points less/game and a healthy Manning for the playoffs. The current scoring numbers are sexy, but it's time to address the 2 elephants in the room.

But Denver isn't one dimensional. They actually rush the ball just fine, especially in the redzone. They are Top 5 in rushing touchdowns.

Sure, they aren't setting up in ace or I formations and battering teams, but this team isn't set up to do that. They are a mediocre running team in terms of yards and yards per rush, but that doesn't mean they aren't balanced.

I think we all remember Thomas whiffing on one play, and we're magnifying that play into our collective psyche.

Like I mentioned before, on the play where Manning went down against San Diego, Thomas put a hell of a block on his man, while Manny Ramirez and the middle of the line got blown up. Putting Dreesen in doesn't solve that problem.

[Dzone]

I agree with him too. I just have to make posts like this since bronconut isn't around anymore. :tsk: RIP, nut :dead:
He died? Damn that sucks. I thought he came back as someone else, but I am sorry he is dead

[Dapper Dan]

He died? Damn that sucks. I thought he came back as someone else, but I am sorry he is dead

What? No. Shit.

"Nut" is gone. "Agapingbutt" is here. I assume the poster is still alive. I miss the real broncosnut though.

[Ziggy]

But Denver isn't one dimensional. They actually rush the ball just fine, especially in the redzone. They are Top 5 in rushing touchdowns.

Sure, they aren't setting up in ace or I formations and battering teams, but this team isn't set up to do that. They are a mediocre running team in terms of yards and yards per rush, but that doesn't mean they aren't balanced.

I think we all remember Thomas whiffing on one play, and we're magnifying that play into our collective psyche.

Like I mentioned before, on the play where Manning went down against San Diego, Thomas put a hell of a block on his man, while Manny Ramirez and the middle of the line got blown up. Putting Dreesen in doesn't solve that problem.

Open your eyes Mo. If you think the Broncos rushing game is ok, you're fooling yourself. 3.7 yards/carry while almost never facing more than 6 or 7 in the box. The rushing TD's are there because the Broncos throw the ball down into the redzone, spread out the defense and run it in from inside the 5 half the time. When the Broncos need a first down to put the game away what do they do? The San Diego game was the perfect example. Denver had to throw for the first down on the last drive. The last first down was by rushing because the D gave us 5 free yards with an encroachment penalty. It's the same problem Denver had last year in the playoffs, and one of the main reasons we lost to the Ravens.

And yes, Dreesen is a huge improvement over Thomas when it comes to blocking. Go back and watch the games again. Thomas consistently misses his blocks, whether it's in the passing game or the run game. I love having his talent out there when he's catching balls. When he's blocking it's Russian roulette. I'd like to see the stats on where the Broncos stats have come from. I'd be willing to bet that a very small percentage are from inside pressure.

[MOtorboat]

Open your eyes Mo. If you think the Broncos rushing game is ok, you're fooling yourself. 3.7 yards/carry while almost never facing more than 6 or 7 in the box. The rushing TD's are there because the Broncos throw the ball down into the redzone, spread out the defense and run it in from inside the 5 half the time. When the Broncos need a first down to put the game away what do they do? The San Diego game was the perfect example. Denver had to throw for the first down on the last drive. The last first down was by rushing because the D gave us 5 free yards with an encroachment penalty. It's the same problem Denver had last year in the playoffs, and one of the main reasons we lost to the Ravens.

And yes, Dreesen is a huge improvement over Thomas when it comes to blocking. Go back and watch the games again. Thomas consistently misses his blocks, whether it's in the passing game or the run game. I love having his talent out there when he's catching balls. When he's blocking it's Russian roulette. I'd like to see the stats on where the Broncos stats have come from. I'd be willing to bet that a very small percentage are from inside pressure.

On the last drive, Moreno went for 4.75 a carry on four carries. They sealed the deal just fine.

[Joel]

First of all, it was one play. And on that one play where he got hurt. Dreesen doesn't solve the problem. Thomas stays in to block and stiffs his man while Ramirez gets pile-drived right back into Manning.
Clarks given up a strip-sack that led to a TD in EACH of our last THREE games. The first was the worst, when Mathis brought PFMs record-setting aerial assault crashing down to Earth by wrecking BOTH his ankles and getting a safety before the Colts took the resulting possession in for a TD. Since we lost by 6, those 9 pts were kind of huge. So was the third quarter play where JT got pushed into Manning by a defender who hit our QBs arm and forced a bad throw the Colts intercepted; our D actually pushed them BACK about 5 yds, but they were already in FG range, so our chance to get even turned into 3 more pts for them.

It's not like our offense was spinning its wheels before we got JT; our passing game was fine without him last year, and we've still got plenty of receiving weapons. What we DON'T have is lots of blockers. Our QB's getting killed, and people are complaining he needs to throw it away after 2-3 seconds; talk about "playing scared." Our rushing total is 20th in the league; just because we pass our way down to the goal line so Moreno and Ball can break tackles or move the pile for the 5th most TDs doesn't change that.

The point of citing that last first down against SD wasn't that Dreesen would've helped Ramirez make a block in the middle, but that we wouldn't have PASSED in the first place if we had a TE who could lead block for Moreno. It's all well to point to Morenos average on that last drive, but the only reason that drive even HAPPENED is that the previous one consisted of three short runs that went nowhere while people in the Game Day Thread raised Hell about the uninspired playcalling; if our D hadn't made a stop after that we'd have been playing to break a tie rather than kill the clock on our last drive. Against a .500 team.

Again, we've tried the quick hit short passes to protect PFM for a month; all it's done is bang up his ankles so badly he's had 2 MRIs in that month and people ask where the deep threat went. He needs at least minimal time to complete even short passes, because DBs are working hard to jam our receivers at the line (or even downfield, since they never get called for Illegal Contact,) and until the refs start flagging PI and Defensive Holding (which is illegal ANYWHERE if the ball's in the air) it's more likely to lead to another pick-six like DeAngelo Halls than a TD for us.

I hate to run the fantasy football thing into the ground, but that's the only place a SB contender can afford to ignore blocking in favor of just starting as many scoring threats as possible. We won 13 games last year without JT, and Dreesen started all but one of them (racking up 5 TDs in 41 catches.) Our receiving threats don't diminish much swapping Dreesen for JT, but our blocking is MUCH better. Again, when PFM went the first moth with just a couple sacks, no Ints and Moreno gaining >5 yd/touch, that was no big deal, but those days are gone with Clady, and he's not coming back this year.

This isn't something we can wait out unless we're willing to wait till 2014 for a SB our battered 38 year old QB might not stick around to win.

[Joel]

Mo, sooner or later the Broncos are going to have to be able to run the ball to win. Not only does it help close out games, it helps Manning stay healthy.
That can't be overemphasized. We've got tons of receiving threats, but have very few solid blockers left, so we can't trade TE blocking for scoring like we did when Clady was healthy. We can't win without Manning, so he needs protection, and needs to NOT be forced to kill the clock passing (which isn't a great way to kill the clock anyway, even with accuracy as high as PFMs.)


Open your eyes Mo. If you think the Broncos rushing game is ok, you're fooling yourself. 3.7 yards/carry while almost never facing more than 6 or 7 in the box. The rushing TD's are there because the Broncos throw the ball down into the redzone, spread out the defense and run it in from inside the 5 half the time. When the Broncos need a first down to put the game away what do they do? The San Diego game was the perfect example. Denver had to throw for the first down on the last drive. The last first down was by rushing because the D gave us 5 free yards with an encroachment penalty. It's the same problem Denver had last year in the playoffs, and one of the main reasons we lost to the Ravens.

And yes, Dreesen is a huge improvement over Thomas when it comes to blocking. Go back and watch the games again. Thomas consistently misses his blocks, whether it's in the passing game or the run game. I love having his talent out there when he's catching balls. When he's blocking it's Russian roulette. I'd like to see the stats on where the Broncos stats have come from. I'd be willing to bet that a very small percentage are from inside pressure.
It's even possible Dreesen coming in after JTs injury was what turned the around the 'Skins game. The running game started getting push (e.g. the pile that almost instantly formed around Ball, but slowly inched forward until it crossed the goal line 4 yds later) and Manning started getting protection. Dreesen also had a first down catch at the start of our tying drive, which he and PFM finished with a wide open 1 yd TD catch.

You make a good point that we're #5 in rushing TDs yet #20 in rushing yards largely because we get G to go with passes, then use that threat to spread offenses and nudge it over the goal line. I mean, OK, Manning has a rushing TD, too, but it's not because our line sealed everything off so well he scampered downfield 50 yds like Michael Vick: He ran around end form a yard or two out, because the D was too busy watching his receivers. As a receiver, Thomas is but one of many; as a blocker, he's a liability to both the running game and PFMs health. Dreesen does both well.

You're also right about the dangers of being one-dimensional: The offenses biggest advantage is they know what they're doing and the D doesn't; conceding that advantage does half the Ds job FOR them. As we head toward those <40° games where PFM's NEVER won in the playoffs and passes start to feel like catching frozen bricks, we'll need to run better than we did in last years playoffs. And we need to be able to keep the clock moving, wear already fatigued defenses and rest ours ANY time we're protecting a small lead late.