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DenBronx
10-31-2013, 08:48 PM
Broncos defensive tackle Kevin Vickerson picked up a costly penalty in his team’s loss to the Colts when he bumped into Andrew Luck, who appeared to flop to the ground intentionally to get the referee to flag Vickerson for roughing the passer. Vickerson thinks Luck is the one who should have been penalized.

Vickerson told the Associated Press he wants the NFL to start fining quarterbacks who flop to try to draw flags, saying that football should follow the lead of basketball, where players can be disciplined for flopping.

“All the quarterbacks in the world are the chosen ones,” Vickerson said. “The NFL should have the same rules they have in the NBA about flopping.”

READ FULL ARTICLE:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/31/broncos-vickerson-wants-nfl-to-fine-quarterbacks-for-flopping/

broncohead
10-31-2013, 08:50 PM
I don't think Luck flopped but I've seen it other times

DenBronx
10-31-2013, 08:52 PM
As dumb as Vickerson played he sort of has a point. It should be an unsportsman like conduct penalty for players who do flop, just like Basketball.

I would add Punters to the list as well because they flop alllllll the damn time.


Vick still needs to get his head out of his ass though and quit hitting the QB late, even he does flop.

SR
10-31-2013, 08:54 PM
This would have a huge impact on defensive linemen and linebackers drawing offensive holding calls.

Lancane
10-31-2013, 09:27 PM
A lot of people to continue to blast Vickerson for late hits, instead of realizing that sometimes you can not stop the momentum of a man his size easily and possibly not without injury.

As for the flop rule, I fully support it...I am tired of quarterbacks falling haphazardly to ground to try and get a flag or every time they get hit a little harder trying to entice the referees for a flag (it's a contact sport).

Denver Native (Carol)
10-31-2013, 09:28 PM
I don't blame him for suggesting that. But, just like basketball, it is a judgement call, and more players get away with flopping, rather than having it called, so I doubt it would really be called much, even if they put that in the rules. It would have to be really obvious.

DenBronx
10-31-2013, 09:31 PM
You are probably right Carol, especially in the NFL. But then again with the flags that can be thrown on defense for faking injuries I guess it's possible.


With all of these safety rules now I don't see a change. BUT it does sucks to have an outcome of a game changed because the QB wants to go from being an athlete to a hollywood actor in .025 seconds


Someone should give Luck an Oscar!!

Denver Native (Carol)
10-31-2013, 09:35 PM
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/10/andrew-luck-flop-broncos-kevin-vickerson/

Luck's flop

Army Bronco
10-31-2013, 10:23 PM
I don't think Luck flopped but I've seen it other timesBrother, Luck flopped bad! I know its to draw a penalty but I lost some respect for him.

Dzone
10-31-2013, 11:31 PM
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/10/andrew-luck-flop-broncos-kevin-vickerson/

Luck's flop
If that isnt a flop, then I dont know what is. Pathetic and it should never have been a penalty. Utterly ridiculous. We got screwed. Vickerson barely touched him. Ive been hit harder by people getting off an elevator

Dzone
10-31-2013, 11:36 PM
Luck reminds me of the person at Safeway who looks for some water on the floor and goes over and falls down on purpose and then hires an attorney

broncohead
10-31-2013, 11:58 PM
Brother, Luck flopped bad! I know its to draw a penalty but I lost some respect for him.

Idk he wasn't expecting it and the fact that Vick is 320 or so could have knocked him off his feet. Regardless I think its weird that it also happened with RG3.

Lancane
11-01-2013, 12:16 AM
Idk he wasn't expecting it and the fact that Vick is 320 or so could have knocked him off his feet. Regardless I think its weird that it also happened with RG3.

Like I stated above, Vickerson is no lightweight at 320lbs. And one's momentum is hard enough to immediately brake when your charging the quarterback but at that size? It would be damn near impossible not to mention could lead to a serious injury. I don't see a damn thing wrong with either hit and had it been before the current commissioner had started to sissify the league, neither would have been called.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-01-2013, 12:33 AM
320 is very conservative....

Dzone
11-01-2013, 12:42 AM
Lucks flop is like Tavon Austins flop on Monday night. The difference is , It looks like Austin was just trying to be a comedian. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tb4TK-LOEQ

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
11-01-2013, 01:08 AM
Like I stated above, Vickerson is no lightweight at 320lbs. And one's momentum is hard enough to immediately brake when your charging the quarterback but at that size? It would be damn near impossible not to mention could lead to a serious injury. I don't see a damn thing wrong with either hit and had it been before the current commissioner had started to sissify the league, neither would have been called.

Charging at the QB? Vickerson was 3 steps away and slowing down when the ball was out of Luck's hand. He had plenty of time to redirect his momentum away from Luck. Why does he have to carry his momentum into the QB?

While I will say that Luck clearly flopped and exaggerated the impact, Vickerson didn't just accidentally run into him. He sticks his chest right into Luck and turns his head to the side. He knew what he was doing. I'll call the flop a mitigating factor, but Vickerson deserves no defense for stupid (especially when he did the same thing the very next game).

sneakers
11-01-2013, 06:01 AM
I think flopping in the NFL is easier to spot than in other sports

BroncoJoe
11-01-2013, 08:05 AM
No need for a fine. How about they just realize what happened and keep the flag in their pocket? Unsportsmanlike penalty on that call was ridiculous.

TXBRONC
11-01-2013, 08:36 AM
Vickerson has a valid point but I don't see it changing.

Northman
11-01-2013, 08:53 AM
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/10/andrew-luck-flop-broncos-kevin-vickerson/

Luck's flop

Definitely a flop but Vick would of been able to help his case if he had tried to actually grab Luck from falling. He definitely bumped him on purpose but that was also major acting on Luck.

Northman
11-01-2013, 08:55 AM
Idk he wasn't expecting it and the fact that Vick is 320 or so could have knocked him off his feet. Regardless I think its weird that it also happened with RG3.

RG3 was even worse because Vick barely touched him. But as i stated the other day once you get that reputation the refs start look at the player and what he does around the QB.

claymore
11-01-2013, 09:08 AM
I credit Luck and RG3 for getting their team an extra 15 yards. The smarter, better player prevailed in both situations. I hope Vick cools his jets. I liked him alot more before he started this shit.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2013, 10:29 AM
Vickerson just needs to shut up. He had PLENTY of time to stop, but he didnt' want to. He WANTED to nudge Luck to let Luck know "he was right there." I get it, and I know what he was doing. I also "get" that Luck flopped and got the call.

But that being said, Vick, SHUT UP. Do your job and STOP taking three steps to "bump" the QBs. You've been called TWICE IN A ROW now. It's on YOU. Not the QBs, Not the Refs....YOU. Keep your head out of your ass and realize you WILL get called for "bumping" the QB if you've had time to stop. We hit RGIII a LOT of times the other night after he had released the ball. It's not liek the refs aren't letting momentum take it's course.

Kickers have been flopping for years. We've learned not to hit the kicker at all, and QBs aren't given as much leway as kickers are. This is on Vickerson, alone.

Joel
11-01-2013, 12:55 PM
Vickerson has a valid point but I don't see it changing.
That's pretty much the size of it. Unfortunately.


Like I stated above, Vickerson is no lightweight at 320lbs. And one's momentum is hard enough to immediately brake when your charging the quarterback but at that size? It would be damn near impossible not to mention could lead to a serious injury. I don't see a damn thing wrong with either hit and had it been before the current commissioner had started to sissify the league, neither would have been called.
This is what gets me: Even ten years ago that wouldn't get a flag, because Luck wasn't HIT, just touched. Even now, any other player who flopped after such minimal contact wouldn't get anything from refs but a dirty look. It wasn't a late hit, because it wasn't a HIT. It was somebody touching a starting QB, but since we pay them $10-20 million/year and opening day stadiums with pics of even bad QBs, it MUST be flagged.

Charging at the QB? Vickerson was 3 steps away and slowing down when the ball was out of Luck's hand. He had plenty of time to redirect his momentum away from Luck. Why does he have to carry his momentum into the QB?

While I will say that Luck clearly flopped and exaggerated the impact, Vickerson didn't just accidentally run into him. He sticks his chest right into Luck and turns his head to the side. He knew what he was doing. I'll call the flop a mitigating factor, but Vickerson deserves no defense for stupid (especially when he did the same thing the very next game).
Actually, I think accidentally bump into Luck is EXACTLY what he did. Watching the clip it's very clear what Vickersons head turned to look at the moment the ball was released: The 3rd and long pass whose outcome was the difference between the Colts getting (at least) three more plays to eat clock, or punting from their end zone with 5:00 left (and don't you know Bruton was drooling over the possibility of another block?) So Vickerson quit watching where he was going, bumped Luck and the QB leapt to the turf for the flag. If Vickerson had wanted to hit him he would've, well, HIT him, not just strolled into him.

I grant Vickerson needs to be more heads up, be aware of the NFL bubble around QBs and where both he and the QB are on the field—he just SHOULDN'T need that. But we don't live in Should Land, and this is the way the NFL is now. He'll have to save his carelessness for RBs, whose injuries are so many fewer and careers so much longer than QBs that the NFL doesn't care what's done to them. Anyone think that play draws a flag if it's Adrian Peterson flopping rather than Luck? After expanding the playoffs to include everyone with >6 wins the NFLs next change will probably be banning sacks. :rolleyes:

arapaho2
11-01-2013, 05:24 PM
I don't mind vick getting flagged...he did it intentional and he needs to understand its a candy ass game and if you even slightly bump a qb after the ball is gone you run the risk of putting your team in a bad way, just accept the refs are gonna call it and don't do it but when that lil bump gets called and the low hit on mannings knees in the jags game doesn't...then I have issues, if your gonna call a slight bump a penalty, then throw the flag when a defender goes low on a qbs knees

Ravage!!!
11-01-2013, 06:02 PM
He obviously did it on purpose and obviously didn't get the message the second time around. But, he'll either get it or he won't, and if he dosen't, Hillman won't be the only one on the sideline for making mistakes. The Luck penalty could have been THE play that cost us that game. He just needs to shut up.

broncohead
11-01-2013, 08:15 PM
Knowing that QBs flop would be more reason to NOT touch the already protected QB. Just asking for a flag

Joker56
11-01-2013, 09:16 PM
And i saw Manning get hit... and hit ... last few games and he never flopped and never got a penalty....
They were going for his legs,knees.. and he never drew a penalty as i can remember...

EastCoastBronco
11-04-2013, 07:50 AM
It all starts at the source...
If Vickerson uses what little grey matter is between his ears in either the Luck situation or the RG3 situation this thread is dead before it starts.
In both cases he purposefully went out of his way to make contact, especially the RG3 incident.
Then he looks at the refs like he's being singled out and picked on.
If Vickerson controls what he can control and leaves the rest alone, he'll be fine.
Aggression is accepted, stupidity is not.

Broncolingus
11-04-2013, 10:30 AM
I agree with him that ANY player (not just QBs) should be flagged if they 'flop,' but in his instances this year, I agreed with the call and thought it was kind of a bush-league play on his part...or at least don't get caught.

Of course, dude shouldn't really be worrying at all about flags for flopping, but rather getting to the QB while he STILL HAS the ****-ing football!!!

...then you wouldn't need to worry about all that other shit, would you there, Vick???

Lancane
11-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Charging at the QB? Vickerson was 3 steps away and slowing down when the ball was out of Luck's hand. He had plenty of time to redirect his momentum away from Luck. Why does he have to carry his momentum into the QB?

While I will say that Luck clearly flopped and exaggerated the impact, Vickerson didn't just accidentally run into him. He sticks his chest right into Luck and turns his head to the side. He knew what he was doing. I'll call the flop a mitigating factor, but Vickerson deserves no defense for stupid (especially when he did the same thing the very next game).

I love the fickle nature of the fan base at times, it's so hypocritically tendentious that there is no room for a rational, plausible discussion. Nope, Vickerson is guilty without question, well because 'we' say so and because there is proof, it's called film. Yet, at the same time 'we' will forget about other factors based on logical possibilities or even scientific facts such as physical momentum based on weight and size, quickness of feet of lack thereof, possible induced adrenaline or fatigue both physically and mentally, overall speed from one point to another, etc.

Is there anyone on the board who is similar in size to Vickerson? If so, have your buddies and you play some football allow for fatigue to set in and then during a moment where adrenaline kicks in to shed the blocker and go full speed at the quarterback then stop your momentum within three steps of the quarterback to avoid hitting him and then come tell me that Vickerson should or even could have done this or that. I'll send you flowers to the hospital, chances are you'll tear your ACL or worse, if not I guarantee your buddy who was playing quarterback was knocked on his *** even with you slowing down.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
11-04-2013, 01:42 PM
I love the fickle nature of the fan base at times, it's so hypocritically tendentious that there is no room for a rational, plausible discussion. Nope, Vickerson is guilty without question, well because 'we' say so and because there is proof, it's called film. Yet, at the same time 'we' will forget about other factors based on logical possibilities or even scientific facts such as physical momentum based on weight and size, quickness of feet of lack thereof, possible induced adrenaline or fatigue both physically and mentally, overall speed from one point to another, etc.

Is there anyone on the board who is similar in size to Vickerson? If so, have your buddies and you play some football allow for fatigue to set in and then during a moment where adrenaline kicks in to shed the blocker and go full speed at the quarterback then stop your momentum within three steps of the quarterback to avoid hitting him and then come tell me that Vickerson should or even could have done this or that. I'll send you flowers to the hospital, chances are you'll tear your ACL or worse, if not I guarantee your buddy who was playing quarterback was knocked on his *** even with you slowing down.

I didn't realize that we were having an irrational, implausible discussion. You claimed that Vickerson would have trouble stopping his momentum as he was "charging" the QB at his 320 lb frame. I argued that he was slowing down 3 steps before getting to the QB, implying and explicitly stating that he had plenty of time to redirect his momentum away from the QB at the speed he was going. He was not "charging" or going full speed. If he was, then I would find your point valid. However, I disagreed.

So what was your response? Insulting my loyalty to the Broncos as a team because I criticize the actions of one player. I love the passive-aggressiveness of the fan base at times. If anyone has any scientific inquiries, then please address them to Lancane.

Lancane
11-04-2013, 02:18 PM
I didn't realize that we were having an irrational, implausible discussion. You claimed that Vickerson would have trouble stopping his momentum as he was "charging" the QB at his 320 lb frame. I argued that he was slowing down 3 steps before getting to the QB, implying and explicitly stating that he had plenty of time to redirect his momentum away from the QB at the speed he was going. He was not "charging" or going full speed. If he was, then I would find your point valid. However, I disagreed.

So what was your response? Insulting my loyalty to the Broncos as a team because I criticize the actions of one player. I love the passive-aggressiveness of the fan base at times. If anyone has any scientific inquiries, then please address them to Lancane.

He was charging up to three feet of the quarterback which only reduces some speed and some momentum, that still doesn't equate to being able to completely avoid hitting a quarterback, just doing so with less force then he originally would have - it's not easy to shift that sort of body mass that quickly. By all means, please test the theory, it's far too much weight and mass, even linebackers charging at lesser weight would have a hard time slowing down enough and lowering the momentum of their rush to completely avoid the quarterback despite their higher level of agility, let alone a mammoth of a man the size of Vickerson. But argue away...

And no one questioned your loyalty nor did I insult you, I questioned yours as well as others irrational yet infinitive worded aplomb of the situation without such finality that it went beyond opinionative and lacked reason beyond 'we say so' mentality. If that is insulting, well, then I am sorry, but I find it insulting that people want to remit their point of view as irrevocable conclusiveness beyond a reason of a doubt without weighing in other factors as I stated above.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
11-04-2013, 02:57 PM
He was charging up to three feet of the quarterback which only reduces some speed and some momentum, that still doesn't equate to being able to completely avoid hitting a quarterback, just doing so with less force then he originally would have - it's not easy to shift that sort of body mass that quickly. By all means, please test the theory, it's far too much weight and mass, even linebackers charging at lesser weight would have a hard time slowing down enough and lowering the momentum of their rush to completely avoid the quarterback despite their higher level of agility, let alone a mammoth of a man the size of Vickerson. But argue away...

And no one questioned your loyalty nor did I insult you, I questioned yours as well as others irrational yet infinitive worded aplomb of the situation without such finality that it went beyond opinionative and lacked reason beyond 'we say so' mentality. If that is insulting, well, then I am sorry, but I find it insulting that people want to remit their point of view as irrevocable conclusiveness beyond a reason of a doubt without weighing in other factors as I stated above.

While I agree that some posts lack logic and rationality, I don't believe that applies in the current discussion. I don't think it's illogical to think he could have redirected his momentum while moving at the speed he was moving. You want to get into the whole momentum has magnitude and direction, it depends on velocity and mass, etc. Yet without actual numbers, we can't really pick who is right and who is wrong. We just can state our opinions and because you don't agree with mine, you view it as irrational. I had a factual basis for my opinion. There was no "I'm right, you're wrong."

Still, I saw Vickerson moving at a low velocity and I also saw a chest bump (or intent). You disagreed. That's fine. No need to go passive-aggressively attack the entire fan base, which includes me and every poster on this board.

gregbroncs
11-04-2013, 03:22 PM
Just don't touch them late and you don't have to worry about it. In both cases the quarterback may have flopped. But WTF was he doing even touching them on those plays?

broncohead
11-04-2013, 08:38 PM
Flop or not Vick would have a case if he looked like he actually tried to avoid contact with not 1 but both QBs.

wayninja
11-04-2013, 11:27 PM
He was charging up to three feet of the quarterback which only reduces some speed and some momentum, that still doesn't equate to being able to completely avoid hitting a quarterback, just doing so with less force then he originally would have - it's not easy to shift that sort of body mass that quickly. By all means, please test the theory, it's far too much weight and mass, even linebackers charging at lesser weight would have a hard time slowing down enough and lowering the momentum of their rush to completely avoid the quarterback despite their higher level of agility, let alone a mammoth of a man the size of Vickerson. But argue away...

And no one questioned your loyalty nor did I insult you, I questioned yours as well as others irrational yet infinitive worded aplomb of the situation without such finality that it went beyond opinionative and lacked reason beyond 'we say so' mentality. If that is insulting, well, then I am sorry, but I find it insulting that people want to remit their point of view as irrevocable conclusiveness beyond a reason of a doubt without weighing in other factors as I stated above.

Yeah, sorry lancane, but definitely does not look like a case of either hit the quarterback or tear an ACL. The thrust of his chest at the end was basically a dead giveaway in my opinion.

While it's true that we don't have the numbers to measure impulse, it's pretty clear from the video that Vickerson definitely did not go out of his way to avoid the QB.

Captain Speardog
11-05-2013, 12:09 AM
A lot of people to continue to blast Vickerson for late hits, instead of realizing that sometimes you can not stop the momentum of a man his size easily and possibly not without injury.

As for the flop rule, I fully support it...I am tired of quarterbacks falling haphazardly to ground to try and get a flag or every time they get hit a little harder trying to entice the referees for a flag (it's a contact sport).

If you watch that play again, Vickerson had no excuse on hitting Luck. It was a boneheaded play and he deserved to be penalized.

wayninja
11-05-2013, 12:16 AM
If you watch that play again, Vickerson had no excuse on hitting Luck. It was a boneheaded play and he deserved to be penalized.

Good point. Also, kudos for the judicious posts/day. Clearly this one was just too tempting not to comment on.

Ravage!!!
11-05-2013, 12:25 AM
He was charging up to three feet of the quarterback which only reduces some speed and some momentum, that still doesn't equate to being able to completely avoid hitting a quarterback, just doing so with less force then he originally would have - it's not easy to shift that sort of body mass that quickly. By all means, please test the theory, it's far too much weight and mass, even linebackers charging at lesser weight would have a hard time slowing down enough and lowering the momentum of their rush to completely avoid the quarterback despite their higher level of agility, let alone a mammoth of a man the size of Vickerson. But argue away...

And no one questioned your loyalty nor did I insult you, I questioned yours as well as others irrational yet infinitive worded aplomb of the situation without such finality that it went beyond opinionative and lacked reason beyond 'we say so' mentality. If that is insulting, well, then I am sorry, but I find it insulting that people want to remit their point of view as irrevocable conclusiveness beyond a reason of a doubt without weighing in other factors as I stated above.

Lan, I don't know why you are making this case, but seriously dude....its a losing one. We see EVERY SUNDAY guys that way 320 lbs stop their "momentum" easier than that. We see them simply turn their shoulders to dodge the QB..and we ABSOLUTELY can see that Vickerson did the "bump" intentionally. I don't even know why you are trying to go into such lengths to defend it, but your defense is standing on VERY VERY weak legs. If you were a lawyer defending a murder trial, you would be reaching into your ass and trying to pull out the SMALLEST of hopes of getting some kind doubt in "beyond reasonable doubt."

If the belly can't dip, you must acquit!!

Lancane
11-05-2013, 01:18 AM
Lan, I don't know why you are making this case, but seriously dude....its a losing one. We see EVERY SUNDAY guys that way 320 lbs stop their "momentum" easier than that. We see them simply turn their shoulders to dodge the QB..and we ABSOLUTELY can see that Vickerson did the "bump" intentionally. I don't even know why you are trying to go into such lengths to defend it, but your defense is standing on VERY VERY weak legs. If you were a lawyer defending a murder trial, you would be reaching into your ass and trying to pull out the SMALLEST of hopes of getting some kind doubt in "beyond reasonable doubt."

If the belly can't dip, you must acquit!!

Okay Rav, then let me ask you this how come the added bone-headedness and aggressiveness? Kevin Vickerson has been a Denver Bronco for four years and a starter since he came here, in that time how often have we seen this from him over that time frame? So he's simply developed such an aggressive nature that he's willing to be fined money week in and week out (which he doesn't make a lot of in comparison to certain others)...so is it possible that he's earned the possibility of doubt because it is so unusual?

Look, I get what you and Ninja, North and FBM are trying to say, but all of you are convicting the poor fat ******* on the premise that this is intentional, when it's unusual and there could be other reasons for such. Not to mention that it is harder for mammoth sized men to slow their momentum enough to avoid hitting the quarterback continuosly, at least not without sustaining some physical strain or injury to themselves. And every Sunday we see Defensive Lineman, Linebackers and Safeties called for 'Roughing the Passer', a good 7 out of 10 momentum plays a factor – the other 3 out of 10 are simply boneheaded decisions by the players, there are those that they try and turn their shoulders or move their head or even hit with less force, so this is a valid argument in this case, could it also be that he didn't realize that he had to stop sooner? Maybe his awareness is piss poor? I don't know, all I am saying is that before we crucify the fat kid, we need to look at all possibilities without a level aplomb finality that I've seen and is completely unreasonable, especially in an era where quarterbacks are coddled (and they know this) to the point of nausiousness and that they are known for flopping to a point of unsportsmanship. This isn't Lombardi's Football anymore, too many Actors and Primadonnas, it's starting to look like the WWE without the choreographed vicious hitting.

Hawgdriver
11-05-2013, 01:47 AM
No need for a fine. How about they just realize what happened and keep the flag in their pocket? Unsportsmanlike penalty on that call was ridiculous.

That sounds proportionate to the offense, but the league called it a pattern behavior. Maybe the refs were on his case about it already and told him to watch it, and this was a three-strikes type penalty. Or, maybe they are too trigger happy when protecting the league QBs. Either way, the message is clear and this only hurts the team moving forward.

Salutethis
11-05-2013, 05:43 AM
Ok, I agree that it was not smart for Vick to bump Luck...he's also probably done that before, enough that I think Luck was expecting him to be there. I do consider it a small consolation that Luck had to go Brady to get that pivotal first down....
Blame goes all around here. I blame Vick for being dumb...even if your goal is to get to the qb... You don't give the other team a way to get a cheap unwarranted penalty. If you are getting flagged make that hit count.
I blame Luck for being a pansy. Most of these players act like they are so tough playing this game. Fine, but if you act as brittle as Brady or a soccer player then I hope you are treated as such. I still don't think its especially smart as everybody could do this. Honestly this is a reason I don't like soccer as much. If I want to watch acting I'll watch a movie.
Finally I blame the ref for being a moron. Honestly a chest bump getting flagged is a penalty taken to the extreme. Luck was looking to make sure the ref saw his act as it happened. I know the refs are told to error on the side of safety. This penalty call was extreme, however, and the penalty really killed the comeback (among other things, thanks Ronnie).
I will still say I hope Denver sees these guys in the playoffs. It took miracles and acting to get a win. I doubt that will happen again.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-05-2013, 10:32 AM
Ok, I agree that it was not smart for Vick to bump Luck...he's also probably done that before, enough that I think Luck was expecting him to be there. I do consider it a small consolation that Luck had to go Brady to get that pivotal first down....
Blame goes all around here. I blame Vick for being dumb...even if your goal is to get to the qb... You don't give the other team a way to get a cheap unwarranted penalty. If you are getting flagged make that hit count.
I blame Luck for being a pansy. Most of these players act like they are so tough playing this game. Fine, but if you act as brittle as Brady or a soccer player then I hope you are treated as such. I still don't think its especially smart as everybody could do this. Honestly this is a reason I don't like soccer as much. If I want to watch acting I'll watch a movie.
Finally I blame the ref for being a moron. Honestly a chest bump getting flagged is a penalty taken to the extreme. Luck was looking to make sure the ref saw his act as it happened. I know the refs are told to error on the side of safety. This penalty call was extreme, however, and the penalty really killed the comeback (among other things, thanks Ronnie).
I will still say I hope Denver sees these guys in the playoffs. It took miracles and acting to get a win. I doubt that will happen again.

eh, I don't know....if it was Manning we'd all be taking about how brilliant he was for drawing a penalty. The fact is Vick needs to use the space between his ears a little better.

Ravage!!!
11-05-2013, 11:04 AM
Okay Rav, then let me ask you this how come the added bone-headedness and aggressiveness? Kevin Vickerson has been a Denver Bronco for four years and a starter since he came here, in that time how often have we seen this from him over that time frame? So he's simply developed such an aggressive nature that he's willing to be fined money week in and week out (which he doesn't make a lot of in comparison to certain others)...so is it possible that he's earned the possibility of doubt because it is so unusual?

Look, I get what you and Ninja, North and FBM are trying to say, but all of you are convicting the poor fat ******* on the premise that this is intentional, when it's unusual and there could be other reasons for such. Not to mention that it is harder for mammoth sized men to slow their momentum enough to avoid hitting the quarterback continuosly, at least not without sustaining some physical strain or injury to themselves. And every Sunday we see Defensive Lineman, Linebackers and Safeties called for 'Roughing the Passer', a good 7 out of 10 momentum plays a factor – the other 3 out of 10 are simply boneheaded decisions by the players, there are those that they try and turn their shoulders or move their head or even hit with less force, so this is a valid argument in this case, could it also be that he didn't realize that he had to stop sooner? Maybe his awareness is piss poor? I don't know, all I am saying is that before we crucify the fat kid, we need to look at all possibilities without a level aplomb finality that I've seen and is completely unreasonable, especially in an era where quarterbacks are coddled (and they know this) to the point of nausiousness and that they are known for flopping to a point of unsportsmanship. This isn't Lombardi's Football anymore, too many Actors and Primadonnas, it's starting to look like the WWE without the choreographed vicious hitting.

I would say that he is on a team that is been brought in to bring pressure to the QB. HE himself, is getting more pressure because of the rest of the talent on the DL. THat brings out just that much MORE want and expectations to put pressure on the QB. After all, everyone on that DL is competitive, and not just against the other team, but with each other. They, as competive individuals, absolutely will take pride in knowing they provided the most pressure on the QB during ANY game...not to mention knowing that helps the team.

Then there are the reasons I explained earlier. Having played QB, you know that EVERY DL tries to make you feel the p ressure. That they were "almost there." They will touch you, laugh and comment on how they "just needed another 1/3 second"..."ah man I had you"... and of course bump you on EVERY play to make you feel as though you don't have much time. It's VERY common. So Vick bumping into the QB absolutely looked just like that situation. He could have EASILY.. yes.. EASILY... stopped himself or avoided Luck, but he didn't WANT to avoid Luck. He WANTED to bump him, so that in the back of Luck's head, the clock is clicking just a tiny bit faster. It's just the nature of the gamesmanship that goes on.

I don 't know if you are arguing that Vick did it on purpose or if the hit shouldn't have been a foul? It would make more sense to argue that the hit didn't deserve a penalty instead of trying to suggest Vick didn't "bump" Luck on purpose. He OBVIOUSLY bumped Vick on purpose. This "his momentum" thing is just...well... lame. It's a poor excuse. He didn't want to avoid Luck because he, like you and everyone else, didn't think he was "bumping" Luck hard enough to draw a penalty flag. I would agree that it should NOT have been flagged and Luck pulled a flop to get the flag....and it worked. Kickers have been doing that for years.

That's a different argument than saying Vick's "large body just couldn't stop"..because that's just a huge pile of BS. As far as "crucifying" him because of the foul. It probably would have ended LONG ago had he not done the SAME STUPID shit against Washington the following week. Even more proof that he doesn't WANT to stop, but wants to make the QB feel as if he's just "that close" to getting there. Look at the fans on Decker over a dropped pass. You want to see a player get crucified over something that happens all the time to players around the NFL, keep track of that around here. It's what fans do. But again, a different argument, because Vick OBVIOUSLY bumped Luck on purpose and just didn't think it would draw a flag. CONSIDERING the TIMING of that move, it was stupid. Just stopped thme on 3rd and long and they were punting at a CRUCIAL point in the game. Dumb dumb dumb...and he did the same thing against Washington (just not as crucial a moment).

Hopefully he's learned to cut that crap out and learns to "control his momentum" since he seems to think its equivalent to a freight train and needs about a mile to stop.