View Full Version : Broncos' MVP is a no-brainer, but who is second-most valuable player?
Denver Native (Carol)
10-30-2013, 06:47 PM
from article:
During the blur of an NFL game, casual fans seldom monitor the prowess of the right guard. It's one of those situations where if you don't hear his name called, he must be playing OK. But Denver newcomer Vasquez, utilizing his frighteningly strong hands and veteran experience, has exceeded OK. In fact — he's the Broncos' SMVP.
Yes, he's Denver's Second-Most Valuable Player (the "SMI-VIP," as they say — they being no one). The former Charger is rated as the league's top overall performing right guard according to the player-tracking site Pro Football Focus. He's also tops of all guards, left and right, in Pass Blocking Efficiency, a rating system that looks at mistakes allowed. He's allowed just four hurries on Denver's MVP, no hits or sacks.
full article - http://www.denverpost.com/hochman/ci_24420583/who-behind-peyton-manning-is-broncos-second-most-valuable-player
BroncoWave
10-30-2013, 06:52 PM
Man, Elway gets an A+ for his free agency haul this offseason in Vasquez, DRC, and Welker. All 3 have been studs.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-30-2013, 07:01 PM
Man, Elway gets an A+ for his free agency haul this offseason in Vasquez, DRC, and Welker. All 3 have been studs.
Yep, it makes up for the productivity of this years's draft. :D
I jest....I think Ball and Sly will contribute eventually. Fortunately, there's a lot of depth on this team at those positions. The emergence of Malik Jackson has been pretty cool.
atwater27
10-30-2013, 07:06 PM
Vasquez most definitely. Rolls with the changes with authority and grace. What a signing!
Ziggy
10-30-2013, 07:31 PM
My vote is for Woody.
Knowshon Moreno. He is your best back and keeps defenses honest.
JPPT1974
10-30-2013, 08:14 PM
It will be hard to figure out who the second MVP player is on the team!
Lancane
10-30-2013, 08:23 PM
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie or Shaun Phillips IMHO.
chazoe60
10-30-2013, 08:24 PM
Woodyard now, Von by the end of the season. The defense is not the same when one or both of those guys are out.
Ziggy
10-30-2013, 08:30 PM
Man, Elway gets an A+ for his free agency haul this offseason in Vasquez, DRC, and Welker. All 3 have been studs.
Let's not forget about Pot Roast. He's one of the unheralded studs on this team.
Vasquez gets my vote. The line totally fell apart when Kuper was at RG in Indy. He is as reliable as you could hope for at the position this year. He has played every offensive snap of every game and is probably an All-Pro. Another way of thinking about it is who we could least afford to lose. After Clady, it would have to be Vasquez.
VonDoom
10-30-2013, 09:37 PM
Vasquez has been great but my vote goes to Woodyard. The drop off when he wasn't there was startling, and that tells me something. Moreno is up there too, considering how far above the other RB's he's been playing
DenBronx
10-31-2013, 06:00 AM
Welker or Moreno.
Anything else and you're not being honest.
Vasquez gets my vote. The line totally fell apart when Kuper was at RG in Indy. He is as reliable as you could hope for at the position this year. He has played every offensive snap of every game and is probably an All-Pro. Another way of thinking about it is who we could least afford to lose. After Clady, it would have to be Vasquez.
There's a good reason why the Chargers fans I know were apoplectic when Denver made this signing. This isn't a surprise performance by a guy having a breakout season. This guy has been and continues to be a monster on the offensive line.
The fact this weakened a division rival makes his performance just a little sweeter. Suck it, Chargers. Suck it hard.
Let's not forget about Pot Roast. He's one of the unheralded studs on this team.
He has been good against the run but he was a monster against the Redskins
TXBRONC
10-31-2013, 06:32 AM
Yep, it makes up for the productivity of this years's draft. :D
I jest....I think Ball and Sly will contribute eventually. Fortunately, there's a lot of depth on this team at those positions. The emergence of Malik Jackson has been pretty cool.
Defensive tackle and wide receiver are two of the toughest to transition from college to the pros.
EastCoastBronco
10-31-2013, 07:17 AM
I'd have to say Woodyard with Moreno running a close second.
LTC Pain
10-31-2013, 08:24 AM
Hard to tell at the halfway point in the season. But if the defense continues to dominate in teh 2nd half of the season like it did against the Redskins then I nominate Woodyard.
BroncoWave
10-31-2013, 08:28 AM
Welker or Moreno.
Anything else and you're not being honest.
:confused: So it would be dishonest to say Woodyard? Did you see how bad our defense got without him, and how much it improved with him back?
Ravage!!!
10-31-2013, 09:51 AM
I'm not even a Moreno fan and I think Moreno should be up for the 2nd MVP. As of right now, we don't really know if the defense WOULD have looked better against the Redskins or not. There were a lot of thigns going on with the defense the last couple of weeks. Having all three starters on the field, at the same time, for the first time this season is a big deal for sure..though.
I knew Vasquez was a great signing when we made it, but am thrilled how well it turned out. We knew Wes was going to do what Wes does...but to me, Moreno has run harder than he's EVER EVER run before.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-31-2013, 09:57 AM
I'm not even a Moreno fan and I think Moreno should be up for the 2nd MVP. As of right now, we don't really know if the defense WOULD have looked better against the Redskins or not. There were a lot of thigns going on with the defense the last couple of weeks. Having all three starters on the field, at the same time, for the first time this season is a big deal for sure..though.
I knew Vasquez was a great signing when we made it, but am thrilled how well it turned out. We knew Wes was going to do what Wes does...but to me, Moreno has run harder than he's EVER EVER run before.
This is also the first time since his rookie year he's been on the field for 8 straight games, whether it's due to injury or being benched in favor of McGahee.
powderaddict
10-31-2013, 01:04 PM
Woodyard, Vasquez, Moreno, hell I'll even throw Chris Harris' name out there for nomination. Trevathan gets an honorary nod.
When you are 7-1, there's a lot of guys contributing and producing :salute:
Spiritguy
10-31-2013, 01:40 PM
Vasquez has been great but my vote goes to Woodyard. The drop off when he wasn't there was startling, and that tells me something. Moreno is up there too, considering how far above the other RB's he's been playing
Your right! The Defense is totally different when Woody isn't in there. Was just listening to Brian Spano's podcast with Chris Harris and they were talking about Woody and how there are times when the other teams offense is going no huddle and the play call for the defense is done by Woody. Harris said that he just knows what Del Rio would call and gets them set.
BigDaddyBronco
10-31-2013, 02:45 PM
Vasquez has been great but my vote goes to Woodyard. The drop off when he wasn't there was startling, and that tells me something. Moreno is up there too, considering how far above the other RB's he's been playing
Woody would be my vote as well. Without Doom, Champ, and Von they played pretty well the first few games until Woody got hurt right before halftime at Dallas. Then they struggled until he got back and started playing well again. He really is the QB and leader of the defense.
DenBronx
10-31-2013, 03:54 PM
:confused: So it would be dishonest to say Woodyard? Did you see how bad our defense got without him, and how much it improved with him back?
I think Moreno has even outplayed Woody, performance wise.
Then Welker leads the league in TDs.
You got to say one of those two guys. Although I do really like Woody and yes the defense struggles without him. But you could also say it struggles without V. Miller or Chris Harris.
DenBronx
10-31-2013, 04:00 PM
Man, Elway gets an A+ for his free agency haul this offseason in Vasquez, DRC, and Welker. All 3 have been studs.
He has been nailing it every offseason. It's crazy to think about what he might even do next year. He has hand picked the perfect guys to fit with this team and even has persueded some to take less to come here. I am super impressed with Elways ability to build a football team.
TXBRONC
10-31-2013, 05:01 PM
I'd have to say Woodyard with Moreno running a close second.
I agree and what confirmed for me is when Woodyard was out for those 2.5 games.
Dzone
10-31-2013, 05:49 PM
Man, Elway gets an A+ for his free agency haul this offseason in Vasquez, DRC, and Welker. All 3 have been studs.
Carrying on his dad's legacy. Jack taught his son well. Its amazing to see
Dzone
10-31-2013, 05:51 PM
Woodyard for sure. He is the leader of the D. Honorable mention to Moreno and Welker, maybe DRC too
G_Money
10-31-2013, 05:55 PM
Great quotes in this article: (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24423105/no-o-8800-ense-but-defense-deserves-some)
"When it was 21-7, at that point it was on us," Knighton said, even though it really wasn't on the Broncos' defense. "We got our leader, Wood, back. He's the best leader I've been around. He wasn't going to let us budge. He sets the tone for us."
Miller, the Broncos' best pass rusher, shook off six games of rust against the Colts, then had one of the Broncos' three sacks against Washington quarterbacks. Woodyard had five tackles and an immeasurable amount of presence.
"Whatever you've heard about Wood? It's better than that," said Broncos safety Rahim Moore. "You see that 'C' on his shoulder?
"It's there for a reason."
Woodyard is our second-most valuable player. :salute: And he's finally getting recognition for it now, too.
~G
TXBRONC
10-31-2013, 06:31 PM
Woodyard for sure. He is the leader of the D. Honorable mention to Moreno and Welker, maybe DRC too
Shaun Philips also deserves a honorable mention.
Simple Jaded
10-31-2013, 08:26 PM
Honesty and Wesley Woodyard, one of these is overrated and the other is not.
BroncoJoe
11-01-2013, 08:55 AM
No one cares about second place.
:couch:
I'd have to say Woodyard with Moreno running a close second.
If the offensive QB's the MVP, the defensive QB's the SMVP. The D didn't do as badly as many seem to think when he missed the Indy game, but it was tissue paper when he left the Cowboys game; until Romo did his Romo-thang at the end I don't think we stopped them once in the whole second half.
That said, when Miller returned, it did make a difference, not necessarily in what he did himself, but in opportunities it created for others when offenses were forced to scheme for Miller. Teams can't double everyone, and if they put two guys on him it's that much more likely Wolfe, or Knighton, or Ayers, or Phillips or SOMEBODY finds the QB. Guys like that make the whole unit better by occupying a disproportionate share of the offenses attention and resources.
Yet it's impossible to say who are next most valuable player is until/unless we beat a winning team, something we've only done twice since the start of LAST season (and one of those teams made up for it with interest in the playoffs.) I don't care much who has (a) big game(s) against scrubs in the regular season; I want to know who's going to step up against top division and conference rivals to secure homefield and wins in the playoffs. This is our second season with two guaranteed first ballot HoFers (and probably at least one more:) Just making the playoffs (even with a bye) isn't good enough.
No one cares about second place.
:couch:
The NFLs last unbeaten team agrees with you. :tongue: Seriously, our schedule's been VERY soft till now apart from Indy, but we must step it up after the bye, because, even with the Texans tanking, 5/8 of our remaining games are against GOOD teams, with 4 in the division and 2 of those against a team already a game ahead of us. Unless we sweep them (unlikely) there's a good chance we'll have to sweep the rest of the division and/or beat NE on the road just to stay in the division race, because they're just not many losses on KCs schedule. Basically, us, SD and Indy; the rest are creampuffs (e.g. Buffalo this week.)
What if Luck gets hurt and/or KC pulls a SD on Indy? That's pretty freakin' grim, Broncos fans; they could end up 15-1 or 14-2, with an outside shot at a perfect season if we don't bring our A game at least once. I HOPE Vasquez is our second most valuable player, because KCs NT is a beast; I'm not sure Beadles and Ramirez have the COMBINED strength to deal with him. Franklin may be up to handling Justin Houston, but unless we clone Moreno and start playing with fifteen man rugby teams there's no way Clark and Beadles can handle Derrick Johnson AND Tamba Hali.
Enjoy the bye, 'cause fun time ends when it does; then we go to work for real....
FanInAZ
11-02-2013, 03:43 AM
I know that I’ve only been able to watch the primetime games that Denver’s played, but I just don’t buy the idea that Moreno is our SMVP. The only basis that anyone has provided supporting the idea is that all of the other RBs are so bad. That’s not a good enough reason for me. There are probably at least a half a dozen players who have been performing at PB levels, but he’s not one of them. I know that statistics don’t tell the whole story, but that can’t be completely ignored either.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00/gamelog/2013/
For his game logs of his entire career: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00/gamelog/
I’m a big support of the idea that a solid RB should average 4+ yards per carry. I’m willing to show some tolerance for 3.5-3.9 yards per carry, but Moreno hasn’t even met that lower standard in 5 out of 8 games so far this season. He was held to under 3 yards per carry in back to back weeks, including the loss to the Colts.
I think for Moreno, it's the fact that he's producing like a top flight back and his pass protection is pivotal for you guys. Isn't it? Your line is beat up, and some of your other threats can't help him out in it either. When's the last time anyone has ever said "Welker is a good blocker?" Or J. Thomas? I know D. Thomas can. Great RB production plus an important skillset that your team lacks...isn't that huge? I guess from an outsider's view, he's the obvious choice.
tomjonesrocks
11-02-2013, 06:49 AM
Let's not forget about Pot Roast. He's one of the unheralded studs on this team.
He was certainly a killer last week..,
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-02-2013, 10:48 AM
I know that I’ve only been able to watch the primetime games that Denver’s played, but I just don’t buy the idea that Moreno is our SMVP. The only basis that anyone has provided supporting the idea is that all of the other RBs are so bad. That’s not a good enough reason for me. There are probably at least a half a dozen players who have been performing at PB levels, but he’s not one of them. I know that statistics don’t tell the whole story, but that can’t be completely ignored either.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00/gamelog/2013/
For his game logs of his entire career: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00/gamelog/
I’m a big support of the idea that a solid RB should average 4+ yards per carry. I’m willing to show some tolerance for 3.5-3.9 yards per carry, but Moreno hasn’t even met that lower standard in 5 out of 8 games so far this season. He was held to under 3 yards per carry in back to back weeks, including the loss to the Colts.
The fact that he might be the best 3rd down back in the league can't be overlooked.
Simple Jaded
11-02-2013, 11:06 AM
The fact that he might be the best 3rd down back in the league can't be overlooked.
Reggie Bush, Matt Forte, Darren Sproles, LeSean McCoy, Jamal Charles, Arian Foster.
I know that I’ve only been able to watch the primetime games that Denver’s played, but I just don’t buy the idea that Moreno is our SMVP. The only basis that anyone has provided supporting the idea is that all of the other RBs are so bad. That’s not a good enough reason for me. There are probably at least a half a dozen players who have been performing at PB levels, but he’s not one of them. I know that statistics don’t tell the whole story, but that can’t be completely ignored either.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00/gamelog/2013/
For his game logs of his entire career: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00/gamelog/
I’m a big support of the idea that a solid RB should average 4+ yards per carry. I’m willing to show some tolerance for 3.5-3.9 yards per carry, but Moreno hasn’t even met that lower standard in 5 out of 8 games so far this season. He was held to under 3 yards per carry in back to back weeks, including the loss to the Colts.
He's averaging 4.2 yards per attempt for the season, and was >5 yards per carry before Franklin went down; by your stated metric, he's "a solid RB." Yes, his production nose-dived once BOTH our starting tackles went out and our starting RG moved to a wholly new position to replace one of them, and got replaced by a gimpy former starter who's solid in pass protection but has never been a good run blocker. All we need to do to see the difference Moreno made even under those conditions is compare how all our other backs did: Worse. Much worse.
Then there's his pass blocking, which is as big a deal as his fans make it. It's as important as short yardage running for the same reason: Because a flexible back prevents telegraphing our playcalls based on whether the poor runner and good blocker is in (i.e. pass) or the strong running poor blocker (i.e. run.) Same reason I'd like to see more of Dreesen and Tamme rather than Orange Julius and Green.
According to the same MHR article that noted Moreno was averaging >5 yds per carry before we lost Franklin, he was also averaging >2 yds after contact. He probably still is; the problem is the contact's coming a lot sooner now that our run blocking has fallen off so badly. Averaging 2 yds afer contact is good for 5+ when the line opens a hole that gets the back 3 before anyone touches him, but when he's hit in the backfield a negligible gain is the best case scenario. That was pretty much Morenos whole career until the start of this year (same with McGahee when he was here,) and when we lost our blockers it was more of the same.
Whether that makes him the second most valuable Bronco remains to be seen, though I'm already concerned about what being 16th in total and 23rd in average rushing tells opposing defenses.
Broncolingus
11-04-2013, 11:03 AM
I agree with those and don't know if there's a clear 2nd...
Woody
Moreno
Clark (all-in-all he's really done a good job)
Phillips
Manny
DRC
Danny T (no, I still can't spell his last name)
...certainly several more.
A lot of guys really have stepped up and are the reason the team is 7-1...
Keep up the fire, gents!!!
gregbroncs
11-04-2013, 02:46 PM
Honesty and Wesley Woodyard, one of these is overrated and the other is not.I really would not argue that Honesty is overrated....But if you say so. :)
Jsteve01
11-04-2013, 11:03 PM
come on Jaded Wood is not overrated. He brings what we've lacked since wilson retired. An uber athletic undersized Mike who motivates everyone around him. Sure he has a tough time shedding and can over pursue, but his line last year was ridiculous and you saw the drop off in the Cowgirls and Fillies games without him qb'in for the defense.
Captain Speardog
11-05-2013, 12:15 AM
The MVP currently for this team outside on Manning I think is Vasquez. BUT the most important person on the team outside of Manning is Von Miller of Course. I would also put Woodyard ahead of Vasquez if he hadn't a missed three games.
Simple Jaded
11-05-2013, 12:27 AM
Holy ass, Batman!
:golfclapforspeardogsavi:
Denver Native (Carol)
11-22-2013, 03:16 PM
Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi 4h
Broncos second-most indispensable player? Knowshon Moreno. According to one player: "Man, we're in trouble if we lose Knowshon".
The MVP currently for this team outside on Manning I think is Vasquez. BUT the most important person on the team outside of Manning is Von Miller of Course. I would also put Woodyard ahead of Vasquez if he hadn't a missed three games.
Vasquez isn't a bad choice as our only legit guard, and Franklin merits mention: Even after we lost Clady, our running and pass protection was still good till Franklin got hurt; since then we've been Swiss cheese except for the pass blocking last week, when our rushing average was worse than ever against awful run D. Depending on whether last week and Dallas are more representative than the game in between, Clark may be the most important after Manning BECAUSE of Manning. Yet between Balls fumblitus and how our line's run blocking (or rather, not) we'd be in dire straits without Moreno, and not just for his pass blocking.
Ravage!!!
11-22-2013, 06:19 PM
Strange to hear Joel think we would be in dire straights about anything. He's usually so positive.
BroncoWave
11-22-2013, 11:03 PM
Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi 4h
Broncos second-most indispensable player? Knowshon Moreno. According to one player: "Man, we're in trouble if we lose Knowshon".
Well according to some on this board he is due to break in half any minute now, so I guess we are screwed. :(
Bump. No more debate - Vasquez is it.
Bump. No more debate - Vasquez is it.
I actually feel more confident in the Moreno declaration.
I actually feel more confident in the Moreno declaration.
Vasquez gave up zero sacks in 16 games with the least mobile starting QB in the NFL. He helped Moreno have a career year. Our o-line was hot garbage the one game where he wasn't at RG (against the Colts he moved to RT - and still graded out awesome in his only ever start there)... And oh by the way, he is an All Pro.
Moreno had a great year, but not an All Pro year. /debate
Vasquez gave up zero sacks in 16 games with the least mobile starting QB in the NFL. He helped Moreno have a career year. Our o-line was hot garbage the one game where he wasn't at RG (against the Colts he moved to RT - and still graded out awesome in his only ever start there)... And oh by the way, he is an All Pro.
Moreno had a great year, but not an All Pro year. /debate
Well, Moreno is closer to the all-pro than you'd believe, but the question is valuable. Moreno is your savior at running back, as your other options fumble the ball and choke. They also cannot consistently produce, and none of them block or receive as well as he does. He gives you a massive versatile outlet that your team really needs. This is a passing league, but even the Packers drafted Eddie Lacy. The Broncos would be in a much worse place if Montee Ball was your starting running back, and we shall not speak of the other running back that the fans wish was dumped on a hill, man.
Manning has also made a history of taking some shoddy lines and making them look better than what they are. The last quarter of his time in Indy was a bit of a trainwreck. The guards were shuffled quite a bit, Saturday was horrendous at times, and in spite of that Manning still stayed clean. Manning, however, has not had much of a history in making running backs around him better. Donald Brown is only a decent player after Manning. Addai with Manning was never much of anything. The list goes on and on. So while the entire team is pretty much thanking their lucky stars that 18 is on the roster, it's fair to say that the issue goes a bit deeper than you think it does.
Oh, and since we are talking about all-pros and offensive lineman, I just read an article that mentioned how hard it is for writers to pick offensive lineman. So while I don't mean to take a dump on Vasquez, Moreno is every bit as worthy of a selection.
Well, Moreno is closer to the all-pro than you'd believe, but the question is valuable. Moreno is your savior at running back, as your other options fumble the ball and choke. They also cannot consistently produce, and none of them block or receive as well as he does. He gives you a massive versatile outlet that your team really needs. This is a passing league, but even the Packers drafted Eddie Lacy. The Broncos would be in a much worse place if Montee Ball was your starting running back, and we shall not speak of the other running back that the fans wish was dumped on a hill, man.
Manning has also made a history of taking some shoddy lines and making them look better than what they are. The last quarter of his time in Indy was a bit of a trainwreck. The guards were shuffled quite a bit, Saturday was horrendous at times, and in spite of that Manning still stayed clean. Manning, however, has not had much of a history in making running backs around him better. Donald Brown is only a decent player after Manning. Addai with Manning was never much of anything. The list goes on and on. So while the entire team is pretty much thanking their lucky stars that 18 is on the roster, it's fair to say that the issue goes a bit deeper than you think it does.
Oh, and since we are talking about all-pros and offensive lineman, I just read an article that mentioned how hard it is for writers to pick offensive lineman. So while I don't mean to take a dump on Vasquez, Moreno is every bit as worthy of a selection.
Moreno is worthy of being in the discussion. There is a case to be made for him. But Vasquez is a better player relative to his peers and to his backup on the team.
Beyond that - Vasquez is physically dominant. Moreno is scrappy, but he is not an elite physically gifted RB. Vasquez is the more valuable player on an absolute and relative basis.
Moreno is worthy of being in the discussion. There is a case to be made for him. But Vasquez is a better player relative to his peers and to his backup on the team.
Beyond that - Vasquez is physically dominant. Moreno is scrappy, but he is not an elite physically gifted RB. Vasquez is the more valuable player on an absolute and relative basis.
How can one say that Vas is better in regards to his peers that back him up? Moreno's peers have had, according to many on this board, lost games, literally. I feel like you need to address the Manning effect on Vasquz, as that is a key part of my argument.
Moreno was a first round draft pick. Maybe he's not elite, but his talent and ability was worthy of that selection. But, where was Vas drafted? Third round, correct? Now super talented players can fall in the draft, but what was the context surrounding his draft stock?
How can one say that Vas is better in regards to his peers that back him up? Moreno's peers have had, according to many on this board, lost games, literally. I feel like you need to address the Manning effect on Vasquz, as that is a key part of my argument.
Moreno was a first round draft pick. Maybe he's not elite, but his talent and ability was worthy of that selection. But, where was Vas drafted? Third round, correct? Now super talented players can fall in the draft, but what was the context surrounding his draft stock?
Doesn't matter what their stock was 5 years ago. That's the beauty of the NFL - it's a meritocracy. Montee Ball has gotten more effective as the year has gone on. He had over 100 yards in KC. I feel much more confident in him than I did our backups last year - or our backups at guard. Our line literally fell apart in Indy when we had to move Vasquez. We already lost Clady - losing our 2nd best OL would be devastating.
Beyond that - zero sacks is zero sacks with or without Manning. All of the other guys surrendered sacks. I think Moreno was probably our #3 MVP, so it's not like I'm advocating against him - I just think Vasquez is on another level.
Ziggy
01-03-2014, 06:08 PM
Ill be the first to say that I was dead wrong about Woody. Besides not giving up a sack all season, Vasquez opened up some huge holes in the run game. Most of Moreno's success came from running to either side of Vasquez. Moreno can be replaced by Montee Ball and we would lose some in pass blocking and receiving. Ball was a better runner in the last 4 games though. If you take Vasquez off of this team, the whole landscape changes for this offense. I'm with Buff on this one. Vasquez over Moreno by a nose, with some love for Pot Roast and DRC.
Doesn't matter what their stock was 5 years ago. That's the beauty of the NFL - it's a meritocracy. Montee Ball has gotten more effective as the year has gone on. He had over 100 yards in KC. I feel much more confident in him than I did our backups last year - or our backups at guard. Our line literally fell apart in Indy when we had to move Vasquez. We already lost Clady - losing our 2nd best OL would be devastating.
Beyond that - zero sacks is zero sacks with or without Manning. All of the other guys surrendered sacks. I think Moreno was probably our #3 MVP, so it's not like I'm advocating against him - I just think Vasquez is on another level.
When we're talking about their physical abilities, it very much matters. Guys don't typically get much faster, slower, or stronger, or jump higher, excluding injuries and what not.
Montee Ball's effectiveness late in the year further's my point. He obviously wasn't ready to take the load in the early and middle part of the season. Denver would have lost out on a lot of production and play-calling capabilities if he was the main back. The situation surely worsens if Hillman is playing.
Production based on another player is production based on another player. I also can repeat myself to further my point. ;)
TXBRONC
01-03-2014, 06:23 PM
Vic Lombardi @VicLombardi 4h
Broncos second-most indispensable player? Knowshon Moreno. According to one player: "Man, we're in trouble if we lose Knowshon".
If something did happen to Moreno I think Denver would be fine because Ball has matured quite bit over the last couple of months.
Hawgdriver
01-03-2014, 07:25 PM
Vasquez gave up zero sacks in 16 games with the least mobile starting QB in the NFL. He helped Moreno have a career year. Our o-line was hot garbage the one game where he wasn't at RG (against the Colts he moved to RT - and still graded out awesome in his only ever start there)... And oh by the way, he is an All Pro.
Moreno had a great year, but not an All Pro year. /debate
/crutch
Hawgdriver
01-03-2014, 07:29 PM
Good points Buff, you might have convinced me. That is not sarcasm.
http://fantasy.nfl.com/research/scoringleaders#researchScoringLeaders=researchScor ingLeaders%2C%2Fresearch%2Fscoringleaders%253Fposi tion%253D2%2526sort%253D21%2526statCategory%253Dst ats%2526statSeason%253D2013%2526statType%253Dseaso nStats%2526statWeek%253D17%2Creplace
Moreno was fifth in receiving yards for RB's this year. Two of the guys ahead of him are almost exclusively pass catchers - Sproles and Woodhead - which should demonstrate to you how versatile Moreno was. Moreno was head of LeSean friggen McCoy in this stat. Moreno was a ubiquitous element of the Denver offense. He was your best blocking back, your best rushing back, your best pass catching back, and was a huge playmaker for the season. If you're going to compare his overall season to his peers, Moreno grades out as one of the most complete backs in the game.
It's Moreno.
Broncolingus
01-03-2014, 09:04 PM
I still say Knowshon...
...no disrespect to anyone else (Manny, etc.), but his play, attitude, and heart were off the charts this year IMO...
DRC would prob be my defensive pick if I had to choose from that side of the ball...
BroncoJoe
01-04-2014, 10:52 AM
No one cares about 2nd place....
DenBronx
01-04-2014, 03:10 PM
After seeing the regular season come to an end, I say its Moreno.
wayninja
01-04-2014, 11:42 PM
There's probably a healthy debate to be had for 3rd MVP and beyond, but Moreno has to be number 2. He definitely did his job lighting a fire even when it seemed like Peyton was unable to.
He's been an awesome offensive weapon and has really stepped up his leadership game as well.
TXBRONC
01-05-2014, 09:20 AM
I think a good case could be made for several player being second but I think Joe hit nail on the head. Who cares about second place the MVP of this team is Manning without Manning this team more than likely doesn't go 26-6 over the last two years nor do they hold the number one seed in the playoffs two years running. He is the main reason this in the position that it is right now.
There's probably a healthy debate to be had for 3rd MVP and beyond, but Moreno has to be number 2. He definitely did his job lighting a fire even when it seemed like Peyton was unable to.
He's been an awesome offensive weapon and has really stepped up his leadership game as well.
Moreno's just not as talented as Vasquez. But he gets all the love because he handles the ball. I expand on that on the preceding couple of pages - but the gist of my argument is that Vasquez is a more physically dominant player, and is more valuable relative to his backup on the team as well. So IMO Vasquez is better on an absolute and relative basis and very clearly the #2 MVP.
CoachChaz
01-07-2014, 03:16 PM
The notion of an offensive lineman being in the discussion is crazy. We dont have much of a clue how Vasquez's back-up would do because he plays a position where a back-up is rarely needed. Or do we? Seems to me that we know what Kuper is able to do and I imagine he would hold down the fort for Vasquez if needed.
This same argument could have been made for Clady last year...but we know what we're capable of when his back-up plays. The exact same record that we had when he played. Vasquez is a stud and deserving of All-Pro status, but Moreno got us out of more jams and made more crucial plays when we needed them and was top 5 in total yardage in the NFL.
The notion of an offensive lineman being in the discussion is crazy. We dont have much of a clue how Vasquez's back-up would do because he plays a position where a back-up is rarely needed. Or do we? Seems to me that we know what Kuper is able to do and I imagine he would hold down the fort for Vasquez if needed.
This same argument could have been made for Clady last year...but we know what we're capable of when his back-up plays. The exact same record that we had when he played. Vasquez is a stud and deserving of All-Pro status, but Moreno got us out of more jams and made more crucial plays when we needed them and was top 5 in total yardage in the NFL.
Kuper came in and shit the bed against Indy with his mangled ankle that doesn't work and nearly got Manning killed. ManRam got pwned repeatedly last year at RG. Perhaps I'm overestimating the stabilizing influence of Vasquez, but I personally don't think so.
Plus he's an All Pro. That should objectively separate him from the others IMO.
CoachChaz
01-07-2014, 03:29 PM
Kuper came in and shit the bed against Indy with his mangled ankle that doesn't work and nearly got Manning killed. ManRam got pwned repeatedly last year at RG. Perhaps I'm overestimating the stabilizing influence of Vasquez, but I personally don't think so.
Plus he's an All Pro. That should objectively separate him from the others IMO.
I get what you're saying. He is an All-Pro guard. That means he is the best at what he does. What does he do? He blocks. And no matter how well he blocks, the skill players still have to do their job...and more. If Moreno breaks 3 tackles after a shoe-string catch and fights for a needed first down...is the talent of Vasquez responsible for that? If Manning hits DT on a bubble screen and he takes it 50 yards for a TD...is it because of Vasquez?
At the end of the day a solid OL is necessary and we have one of the best interior guys in the game. But if the skill players dont do their job on the back end, then none of it matters. I think Vasquez is a great player and I was one of the few that was very excited when we signed him. But I just dont see an OL being the 2nd most valuable player on a team full of VERY good skill players.
CoachChaz
01-07-2014, 03:31 PM
And while I'm at it...I'm still waiting for all of this evidence that Ramirez was "repeatedly owned" at RG last year. He wasnt perfect and that is evidenced by Denver's decision to sign Vasquez...but it really gets old when people tear down a player because of a few plays or because of what other people say.
I get what you're saying. He is an All-Pro guard. That means he is the best at what he does. What does he do? He blocks. And no matter how well he blocks, the skill players still have to do their job...and more. If Moreno breaks 3 tackles after a shoe-string catch and fights for a needed first down...is the talent of Vasquez responsible for that? If Manning hits DT on a bubble screen and he takes it 50 yards for a TD...is it because of Vasquez?
At the end of the day a solid OL is necessary and we have one of the best interior guys in the game. But if the skill players dont do their job on the back end, then none of it matters. I think Vasquez is a great player and I was one of the few that was very excited when we signed him. But I just dont see an OL being the 2nd most valuable player on a team full of VERY good skill players.
But I think you can just as easily make the contrary case... Which is that if he isn't blocking, and the line is getting beat like they were in Indy, then Moreno and Manning can't do their jobs.
Vasquez played every single snap this year... It's not like we're talking about a pitcher winning MVP in baseball playing every 5th day. He is every bit as vital to this team's success as any of the skill players.
And while I'm at it...I'm still waiting for all of this evidence that Ramirez was "repeatedly owned" at RG last year. He wasnt perfect and that is evidenced by Denver's decision to sign Vasquez...but it really gets old when people tear down a player because of a few plays or because of what other people say.
I've given the guy all the credit in the world for his performance at center this year. But he was a below average guard last year and it was clear as day. I don't have a subscription to any of the sites that grade players out, but I'd be willing to be he graded out below average last year.
CoachChaz
01-07-2014, 04:46 PM
But I think you can just as easily make the contrary case... Which is that if he isn't blocking, and the line is getting beat like they were in Indy, then Moreno and Manning can't do their jobs.
Vasquez played every single snap this year... It's not like we're talking about a pitcher winning MVP in baseball playing every 5th day. He is every bit as vital to this team's success as any of the skill players.
So then we just play the "chicken or the egg" game. If the OL doesnt block...skill players dont have success. If skill players have success...it's only because the line blocked.
I'm not buying that. In order for success to happen, all players need to play as a team and yes...the OL is very important to this success. But if their importance is at the level that you seem to be arguing, then we should NEVER see another skill position win any kind of award. Because...afterall...they wouldnt be who they are without their line. So why are we bothering discussing Vasquez as the 2nd MVP? I mean, if it wasnt for him, Manning wouldnt have been shit this year. So maybe Vasquez is the #1 MVP for the Broncos.
CoachChaz
01-07-2014, 04:50 PM
I've given the guy all the credit in the world for his performance at center this year. But he was a below average guard last year and it was clear as day. I don't have a subscription to any of the sites that grade players out, but I'd be willing to be he graded out below average last year.
He actually graded as a +3 last year. Barely above mediocre, but still better than most give him credit for.
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 04:53 PM
I think the way our offense has played after losing Clady proves pretty sufficiently how replaceable o-lineman are. Left tackle is supposed to be the most vital position on the line, and we lost one of the best ones in the league, and our offense still performed at record levels.
On the flip side, look at our games where our offense has struggled. They have been the ones without skill players like Wes. Or look at the playoff game last year, where our offense clearly fell off when Moreno went out.
O-line play is definitely important, but I think a great skill player is FAR more valuable than a great o-lineman.
So then we just play the "chicken or the egg" game. If the OL doesnt block...skill players dont have success. If skill players have success...it's only because the line blocked.
I'm not buying that. In order for success to happen, all players need to play as a team and yes...the OL is very important to this success. But if their importance is at the level that you seem to be arguing, then we should NEVER see another skill position win any kind of award. Because...afterall...they wouldnt be who they are without their line. So why are we bothering discussing Vasquez as the 2nd MVP? I mean, if it wasnt for him, Manning wouldnt have been shit this year. So maybe Vasquez is the #1 MVP for the Broncos.
Skill players are vital cogs too. I'm not minimizing that. There are all kinds of ways to produce in the NFL - and there are all kinds of ways to evaluate players. There is no hard and fast rule about which positions mean more to their respective teams.
My point is very simply that the All Pro designation is among the most prestigious in all of football. Vasquez is a dominant force and the best in the league at his position. You argued that linemen shouldn't be in the discussion for MVP because their roles aren't as important, and I am making the opposite case that they can be as vital as skill players, as we witnessed in the Indy game. Obviously QB is its own animal as that's the most difficult position in sports, so QBs are always going to get extra consideration in the MVP discussion for degree of difficulty...
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:06 PM
Matt Prater was a second team all pro. One of 4 Broncos to be first or second team. Is he one of our 4 most important players?
I think the way our offense has played after losing Clady proves pretty sufficiently how replaceable o-lineman are. Left tackle is supposed to be the most vital position on the line, and we lost one of the best ones in the league, and our offense still performed at record levels.
On the flip side, look at our games where our offense has struggled. They have been the ones without skill players like Wes. Or look at the playoff game last year, where our offense clearly fell off when Moreno went out.
O-line play is definitely important, but I think a great skill player is FAR more valuable than a great o-lineman.
Anecdotally speaking - the one game where Vasquez was moved out of his RG position, the line was in shambles and had their worst game of the year.
Generally speaking - I would mostly agree that skill positions are more important. Certainly QB is the most important position. But then why do teams draft linemen in the first round? If they are universally less valued than skill players, shouldn't the draft reflect that phenomenon?
Matt Prater was a second team all pro. One of 4 Broncos to be first or second team. Is he one of our 4 most important players?
Kickers and punters are the exceptions to every rule - you know that. They are barely even considered football players by their teammates.
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:10 PM
Anecdotally speaking - the one game where Vasquez was moved out of his RG position, the line was in shambles and had their worst game of the year.
Generally speaking - I would mostly agree that skill positions are more important. Certainly QB is the most important position. But then why do teams draft linemen in the first round? If they are universally less valued than skill players, shouldn't the draft reflect that phenomenon?
It tends to almost exclusively be left tackles drafted in round 1, which makes sense as they protect the QB's blind side. As for guards though, you see MAYBE one go in the first round per year, if that?
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:11 PM
Kickers and punters are the exceptions to every rule - you know that. They are barely even considered football players by their teammates.
Fair enough. My point was that all-pro designation doesn't necessarily make a player more valuable to a team than one who wasn't an all-pro.
It tends to almost exclusively be left tackles drafted in round 1, which makes sense as they protect the QB's blind side. As for guards though, you see MAYBE one go in the first round per year, if that?
But they do get drafted high when their production warrants. Just as I'd argue elite lineman performance should be recognized when it warrants. Giving up zero sacks and helping your QB and RB put up career seasons is exemplary, but because he is a guard nobody notices or cares.
Ravage!!!
01-07-2014, 05:14 PM
I think the way our offense has played after losing Clady proves pretty sufficiently how replaceable o-lineman are. Left tackle is supposed to be the most vital position on the line, and we lost one of the best ones in the league, and our offense still performed at record levels.
On the flip side, look at our games where our offense has struggled. They have been the ones without skill players like Wes. Or look at the playoff game last year, where our offense clearly fell off when Moreno went out.
O-line play is definitely important, but I think a great skill player is FAR more valuable than a great o-lineman.
yes and no. What you don't know is just how much adjustments have had to be made to cover for Clady or any lost OL. Manning's ability to get rid of the ball at 2.5 seconds per throw is what very well could be saving the offense. Our hurry up offense and Manning's ability to pre-read is making ALL the differences in the world. Put someone else behind center other than Manning, and lets see just h ow important that extra .5 seconds are.
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:15 PM
But they do get drafted high when their production warrants. Just as I'd argue elite lineman performance should be recognized when it warrants. Giving up zero sacks and helping your QB and RB put up career seasons is exemplary, but because he is a guard nobody notices or cares.
I think many of us notice and care. It's just that when forced to choose, we value Moreno's production over his. That's not to say Vasquez isn't a very valuable player. We're mostly just splitting hairs here.
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:16 PM
yes and no. What you don't know is just how much adjustments have had to be made to cover for Clady or any lost OL. Manning's ability to get rid of the ball at 2.5 seconds per throw is what very well could be saving the offense. Our hurry up offense and Manning's ability to pre-read is making ALL the differences in the world. Put someone else behind center other than Manning, and lets see just h ow important that extra .5 seconds are.
Well given that Manning is in fact our QB, you have to factor that into your opinion. If his quick release minimizes the importance of o-line play for us, then that lends to the fact that Moreno might be the more valuable player. I still reference back to when he got hurt against the Ravens. Our offense just wasn't the same after that.
I think many of us notice and care. It's just that when forced to choose, we value Moreno's production over his. That's not to say Vasquez isn't a very valuable player. We're mostly just splitting hairs here.
Fair - Personally I could never put Moreno ahead of Vasquez because his skill set doesn't warrant. He overachieved and had a great season - but he is not a dominant player or the best in class at his position. And ultimately I'd rather lose Moreno because I feel like we could more easily endure that loss than we could losing Vasquez. Just my two cents.
Fair - Personally I could never put Moreno ahead of Vasquez because his skill set doesn't warrant. He overachieved and had a great season - but he is not a dominant player or the best in class at his position. And ultimately I'd rather lose Moreno because I feel like we could more easily endure that loss than we could losing Vasquez. Just my two cents.
If you take away Manning they're both going to be average. It's a wash.
If you take away Manning they're both going to be average. It's a wash.
I'm glad you made this point, because my whole argument is based around the idea that Vasquez would be better as a standalone player regardless of system. If you strip Manning away, Vasquez is still physically dominant, and Moreno is not.
I'm glad you made this point, because my whole argument is based around the idea that Vasquez would be better as a standalone player regardless of system. If you strip Manning away, Vasquez is still physically dominant, and Moreno is not.
Vasquez would be an average guard and do average guard things. Moreno would be an average RB and do average RB things. Personally speaking, I'd rather have the average RB who is a three down back.
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:28 PM
I'm glad you made this point, because my whole argument is based around the idea that Vasquez would be better as a standalone player regardless of system. If you strip Manning away, Vasquez is still physically dominant, and Moreno is not.
I do agree with you that Vasquez is a better guard than Moreno is a RB. My issue is mainly with assigning importance to their respective positions on this team.
It's this simple - both of them need Manning equally, but one guy scores, and the other guy doesn't. Take the guy who scores.
BroncoWave
01-07-2014, 05:30 PM
Take the guy who scores.
Beef Stew approves of this philosophy.
Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 02:59 PM
Buff, I was messing around at pro-football focus and came across this stat, and it seems to help your case. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but it seems like strong evidence. I'll just leave this here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/leaders.htm):
Leaders Mouseover Statistic Names for Descriptions
Approximate Value
1. Louis Vasquez*+ · DEN 19
Richard Sherman*+ · SEA 19
Peyton Manning*+ · DEN 19
4. Luke Kuechly*+ · CAR 18
Vontaze Burfict* · CIN 18
Navorro Bowman*+ · SFO 18
Typo: that's Pro-football reference, not PFF.
Hawgdriver
01-08-2014, 03:09 PM
Buff, I was messing around at pro-football focus and came across this stat, and it seems to help your case. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but it seems like strong evidence. I'll just leave this here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/leaders.htm):
Leaders Mouseover Statistic Names for Descriptions
Approximate Value
1. Louis Vasquez*+ · DEN 19
Richard Sherman*+ · SEA 19
Peyton Manning*+ · DEN 19
4. Luke Kuechly*+ · CAR 18
Vontaze Burfict* · CIN 18
Navorro Bowman*+ · SFO 18
I dug around, found the methodology, and it's basically giving him props for his AP All-Pro nod. I was hoping for more advanced analysis, but that's not the case.
If you take away Manning they're both going to be average. It's a wash.
To play devils advocate, Morenos success is even more dependent on Vasquez than on Manning (for one thing, if our right side weren't SOLID we'd have trouble running AT ALL, because Beadles can only run block safeties and LBs downfield, not DTs and DEs at the line.) It's a tough call, but if you take Manning away you get Moreno on the '11 Broncos (which was nothing special) and Vasquez on the '12 Bolts (which was borderline Pro Bowl, hence many considered him one of our top FA scores, which is saying a lot given the company.)
I still think Moreno gets the edge by a nose because he does everything well, if nothing exceptionally well. It's hard to overestimate the value of not telegraphing play calls by rotating in the RB who can pass block for the one who only runs well (or vice versa.) Maybe this weeks game will tell us who's Denvers second most valuable player.
To play devils advocate, Morenos success is even more dependent on Vasquez than on Manning .
I disagree, as Manning uses the running game and screen game at times compensate for the makeshift line. Haha! Chicken and the egg time, Joel!
Buff, I was messing around at pro-football focus and came across this stat, and it seems to help your case. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but it seems like strong evidence. I'll just leave this here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/leaders.htm):
Leaders Mouseover Statistic Names for Descriptions
Approximate Value
1. Louis Vasquez*+ · DEN 19
Richard Sherman*+ · SEA 19
Peyton Manning*+ · DEN 19
4. Luke Kuechly*+ · CAR 18
Vontaze Burfict* · CIN 18
Navorro Bowman*+ · SFO 18
Typo: that's Pro-football reference, not PFF.
This is beautiful. Essentially they've given us a scale by which to compare apples and oranges.
Most people would not dispute that Vasquez is a better guard than Moreno is a running back. But it's hard to quantify just how much better he is. This gives us some idea.
MOtorboat
01-08-2014, 06:09 PM
This is beautiful. Essentially they've given us a scale by which to compare apples and oranges.
Most people would not dispute that Vasquez is a better guard than Moreno is a running back. But it's hard to quantify just how much better he is. This gives us some idea.
Richard Sherman has the same value as Manning, eh?
I disagree, as Manning uses the running game and screen game at times compensate for the makeshift line. Haha! Chicken and the egg time, Joel!
Not really, because a RUNNING back must still be at least a passable runner first to get a chance to contribute as receiver and blocker, much as a "dual threat" QB must be at least a passable passer (see what I did there? :tongue:) to get a chance to contribute as a runner. Where it's chicken/egg is in the games cyclical nature dictating that whether specialists beat generalists often depends on the era and team in question, usually both.
Yet when Morenos blocking sucked, so did he, and the debate was whether his receiving skills justified keeping a scrub back just to catch on third down (the pass blocking skills that suddenly made him indispensable in 2013 were apparently beneath notice or mention as recently as last year. ;)) Mannings taste for screens and checkdowns to backs (hardly unique to him, but he does both well) certainly make Moreno MORE valuable, but Vasquez makes all Morenos secondary skills less NECESSARY even as he makes Morenos PRIMARY job easier.
It really is a tough call. I give it to Moreno by a nose because he's very good in ALL areas without being great in any, but there's a strong case for Vasquez. Manning also uses the run to reduce picks, kill the clock, tire defenses, rest his own and prevent opponents blitzing him on every down, too. It's hard to gauge whether Moreno's more valuable than Vasquez there, too, but even with Clady out our running game's still better than it was with Moreno last year, and when he needs Ball to spell him Vasquez is still opening holes and keeping Mannings jersey clean.
This is beautiful. Essentially they've given us a scale by which to compare apples and oranges.
Most people would not dispute that Vasquez is a better guard than Moreno is a running back. But it's hard to quantify just how much better he is. This gives us some idea.
Except it's very hard to find, let alone compile and analyze line stats, so many places have used second hand consensus in the form of All Pro votes, as PFR has done, and which is even more unreliable since the NFL made Pro Bowl selections a combination of equal parts fan, coach and player votes. Probably the best way to compare them would be DVOA or something similar at Football Outsiders, but I don't know whether they break that down to individual players or just use it for whole offensive lines (primarily for the reasons just stated.)
MOtorboat
01-08-2014, 06:57 PM
Except it's very hard to find, let alone compile and analyze line stats, so many places have used second hand consensus in the form of All Pro votes, as PFR has done, and which is even more unreliable since the NFL made Pro Bowl selections a combination of equal parts fan, coach and player votes. Probably the best way to compare them would be DVOA or something similar at Football Outsiders, but I don't know whether they break that down to individual players or just use it for whole offensive lines (primarily for the reasons just stated.)
While I agree that All-Pro voting probably shouldn't be placed into a metric trying to gauge performance, PFR uses the All-Pro voting which is completely different than Pro Bowl selections and fan voting.
While I agree that All-Pro voting probably shouldn't be placed into a metric trying to gauge performance, PFR uses the All-Pro voting which is completely different than Pro Bowl selections and fan voting.
You're right, my bad, though it sounds like we're agreed on the core point a poll of AP sportswriters is also too subjective for this purpose.
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