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View Full Version : Where did the long ball go?



LawDog
10-27-2013, 09:26 PM
Peyton didn't complete any deep passes today vs. the 'Skins. He did attempt a few though - but they were either off target or thrown to well covered receivers. I thought at first that it might be the ankles, especially after reading how Peyton is using his legs and core to make up for the lack of strength in his tricep. But I'm really not sure what the deal is. Any thoughts?

G_Money
10-27-2013, 09:27 PM
I do think it's his lower body, like you said originally. With his ankle he can't step into the throw. It's all arm stuff with him or short flat routes where he might throw it a ways across the field but he doesn't have to javelin-loft it.

~G

atwater27
10-27-2013, 09:38 PM
I think our receivers can't get any separation downfield, combined with the fact that our line is 3 starters light. Demaryius will always get the best corner, Wes has great initial quickness but just above average top speed, Decker lacks both the acceleration and deep speed to be a great option on the long ball, although his height and jumping ability help. If we still had our 2 best tackles, I bet our long ball game would be much better.

G_Money
10-27-2013, 09:42 PM
Decker also has a bad ankle, so his top speed is limited as well. He's not outrunning anybody right now, and we lost Julius so their went some of the seam pressure over the top. Maybe after the bye.

~G

G_Money
10-27-2013, 09:49 PM
And one last thing: LOT of two-deep safeties last week, and quite a bit this week too. Challenging us to make long drives, which we did (16 plays on one of em, if I saw correctly). As has always been said, you run a team out of a Tampa Two look, or any two-deep safety defense. We aren't doing that yet, but that's part of what we use the WR screens for, which DT did well today.

*shrugs* Nobody wants to get beat over the top, especially as badly as we've humiliated some teams. So they've adjusted and it's our job to make em pay for playing defense this way against us. If we could STOP TURNING THE BALL OVER we'd have made them regret playing this way against us, so as soon as we stop doing that it'll force teams to come up and open up the long pass again.

Hopefully Manning will be healthy enough to throw the long ball accurately again by the time that happens.

~G

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-27-2013, 09:52 PM
I have seen Manning underthrow Thomas more often than not on the 9 route the last two weeks.

MOtorboat
10-27-2013, 09:55 PM
Teams are purposely taking it away. Has little to do with Denver or Manning.

NightTerror218
10-27-2013, 10:35 PM
I think part of it is the WRs, mostly Decker, are wanting flags rather then fight for the long balls.Decker throws arms up a lot.

DenBronx
10-27-2013, 10:40 PM
Manning over threw Demaryius Thomas today. The ball was there but Thomas didnt get there quick enough.

GEM
10-27-2013, 10:55 PM
Manning doesn't trust this line at all. He's looking for short drop offs because dlinemen are hitting middle and off Clark far too fast.

atwater27
10-27-2013, 11:01 PM
One other thing... teams seem to be pressing our receivers quite abit as well. That seems to be why we had such success with screen passes... the blockers were already engaged. Teams seem to be trying to get physical with the receivers to disrupt timing and knowing that our O-line will break quick. Hope we game plan that going forward.

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 11:04 PM
the fact that our line is 3 starters light

That's what I think.

gregbroncs
10-27-2013, 11:16 PM
Jacksonville showed that a 2 deep set can have some success against our offense. At least slowing down the quick strikes and making the offense work their way down the field. The receivers and Manning have shown a little bit of frustration and impatience with the style of defense being played against them the last 3 weeks. Hopefully today starts to show them if they are patient they can beat teams that play that way and still score.

I was encouraged that they ran more screens and slants this week. Last week they seemed to not want to go to those even though Indy was extremely aggressive at the line.

Dzone
10-27-2013, 11:17 PM
I think part of it is the WRs, mostly Decker, are wanting flags rather then fight for the long balls.Decker throws arms up a lot.
I agree.Wish they would give more effort to get the ball instead of effort trying to get a flag.
Yes, they are getting held, the refs dont call it...accept it and fight for the ball.

Simple Jaded
10-27-2013, 11:49 PM
The two biggest whiners about PI are the two biggest receivers.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2013, 12:01 AM
Peyton didn't complete any deep passes today vs. the 'Skins. He did attempt a few though - but they were either off target or thrown to well covered receivers. I thought at first that it might be the ankles, especially after reading how Peyton is using his legs and core to make up for the lack of strength in his tricep. But I'm really not sure what the deal is. Any thoughts?

I think that the passes just weren't completed.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2013, 12:04 AM
I think part of it is the WRs, mostly Decker, are wanting flags rather then fight for the long balls.Decker throws arms up a lot.

Weird... I was saying that about Thomas allll night tonight after watching him slip, fall, and miss several passes.

Joel
10-28-2013, 11:18 AM
I think our receivers can't get any separation downfield, combined with the fact that our line is 3 starters light. Demaryius will always get the best corner, Wes has great initial quickness but just above average top speed, Decker lacks both the acceleration and deep speed to be a great option on the long ball, although his height and jumping ability help. If we still had our 2 best tackles, I bet our long ball game would be much better.
I think that's the bulk of it: Our line's beat all to Hell and, as you note below, since Indy had success jamming our receivers and playing physical all the way downfield without getting flagged, everyone will do it now. It really does look 1970 out there much of the time; DBs are routinely getting away with stuff against us that wouldn't have flown 20 years ago against anyone else, let alone now.

Contact past 5 yards is supposed to be a penalty unless incidental: That's why the Illegal Contact penalty exists, whether or not there's any PI. They sure don't mind calling Thomas or Decker for pushing off; why not call that? They would with any other team. Contact within 5 yards of the line is legal, but if a pass comes to the receiver it's supposed to be PI unless the DB stops grabbing him. Not in Denver. At this point I wouldn't be surprised at a Seahawks/Colts SB: Those are the secondarys playing like it's 40 years ago—and getting away with it.

Like you say though, no protection+no separation=no deep balls; that simple. It takes time for receivers to get downfield, more if they have to carry a DB on their back, and our line won't let Manning wait that long. That's been the standard way to deal with timing routes and deep passes ever since the days of Air Coryell and Landrys razzle-dazzle Cowboys, which is why mugging receivers was banned then. Just not in Denver.

Joel
10-28-2013, 11:42 AM
And one last thing: LOT of two-deep safeties last week, and quite a bit this week too. Challenging us to make long drives, which we did (16 plays on one of em, if I saw correctly). As has always been said, you run a team out of a Tampa Two look, or any two-deep safety defense. We aren't doing that yet, but that's part of what we use the WR screens for, which DT did well today.

*shrugs* Nobody wants to get beat over the top, especially as badly as we've humiliated some teams. So they've adjusted and it's our job to make em pay for playing defense this way against us. If we could STOP TURNING THE BALL OVER we'd have made them regret playing this way against us, so as soon as we stop doing that it'll force teams to come up and open up the long pass again.

Hopefully Manning will be healthy enough to throw the long ball accurately again by the time that happens.

~G
Meh; people say that like it's a new thing, but the only new part is the Tampa Two: "Run to establish the pass" has been around since Arnie Herber was lobbing bombs to Don Hutson. The problem is we only have one proven back, and our run blocking's VERY sketchy at the line. Another flashback, maybe: Multiple defenders in our backfield at the snap force our back to "run to daylight" (or run for their lives.)

Teams have liked passing at least since the '50s; the problem was DBs and LBs could sit in zone and clothesline recievers unless forced to play the run. Before the NFL finally passed rules agianst that in 1974 and 1978, several teams won Super Bowls that way; now it looks like the Seahawks or Colts may win one that way in 2013. Bottom line is we need run blocking; I thought we finally had it with Ramirez at C and Vasquez at RG, but losing Clady and Franklin put a real crimp in that. Franklin'll be back, but we're stuck with Clark till next year.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-28-2013, 07:40 PM
Two bum ankles will take away the long ball. He's attempted several, but some have fallen short. He's also overthrown a few - like the one where Decker quit on during the Indy game or he probably could've had it. The DT throw vs the skins that was picked wasn't a bad throw and it was one DT normally comes down with but Hall made a gray play ripping it away at the last second.

As Manning's ankles get better, so will his long ball. Our WRs need to do a better job going after it instead of letting it come to them.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-28-2013, 07:44 PM
I think part of it is the WRs, mostly Decker, are wanting flags rather then fight for the long balls.Decker throws arms up a lot.

Weird... I was saying that about Thomas allll night tonight after watching him slip, fall, and miss several passes.

I still think Thomas was severely interfered with on that play and Manning agreed. You could see on the replay that Hall has two handfuls of jersey (left hand on left shoulder, right hand on the front if the jersey pulling downward) and pulls Thomas down as he comes out of his break. It wasn't immediately apparent but it's visible on the replay.

wayninja
10-29-2013, 12:37 AM
While I'd like to see more shots downfield, I'm happy with Peyton exploiting what the defense gives him. If we can score 38 points throwing short/crossing/screens and moving the chains, I'm totally fine with that.

Take what the D gives you. On sunday the D gave Peyton everything up front, short, and he killed them with it.

powderaddict
10-29-2013, 10:35 AM
As long as the offense is dropping 38 points on opponents, I don't really care if it's by long ball, short ball, fast ball, slow ball, hand ball, Montee Ball, or any other kind of ball.

broncofaninfla
10-29-2013, 12:55 PM
Not sure what it is but there has been an obviuos drop in velocity in his passes since mid way in the Colts game.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-29-2013, 01:04 PM
Not sure what it is but there has been an obviuos drop in velocity in his passes since mid way in the Colts game.

I think it's a combination of ankle sprains and an inability to step up into the pocket. I don't think his arm has anything to do with it. I'm sure he'll be fine, especially now that Franklin is back.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2013, 11:39 AM
For something that is supposedly so "obvious".. I don't see a drop in the velocity of his passes.

CoachChaz
11-01-2013, 11:50 AM
I read some where that Manning is like 1 for 16 with 2 INT's on his last 16 attempts over 15 yards. The one completion was 16 yards