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Denver Native (Carol)
10-26-2013, 10:40 AM
Let's review the Broncos' running back situation.

Knowshon Moreno, bless his gritty heart, is approaching the point of overworked. He is getting used more than his ripped-apart-and-sewn-back-together knees — two major surgeries in two years — should handle because youngsters Montee Ball and Ronnie Hillman have yet to seize the available backup role. A trust issue with ball security has been the problem there.

Meanwhile, rookie running back C.J. Anderson has been a game-day inactive member of the Broncos' 53-man roster.

AND


Through seven games, Denver's running game has pretty much been Moreno and little else. He leads the NFL with eight rushing touchdowns and ranks 14th with 413 yards. Hillman and Ball have combined for 321 yards, one touchdown and three lost fumbles.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24391155/c-j-anderson-ready-rescue-denver-broncos-running

SR
10-26-2013, 10:47 AM
All I saw on the DP that mattered to me in the past couple of days was that Kuper practiced.

Lancane
10-26-2013, 04:10 PM
This whole CJ thing is getting far too much press for being an unknown and possible insignificant move. It's almost like the media is trying to replace the coverage of offensive line and defensive issues that are plaguing the Broncos with something positive.

Joel
10-26-2013, 05:56 PM
This whole CJ thing is getting far too much press for being an unknown and possible insignificant move. It's almost like the media is trying to replace the coverage of offensive line and defensive issues that are plaguing the Broncos with something positive.
It may be a combination. The line was run blocking well until our big bookends went down, but Moreno was the only one taking advantage of that opportunity, possibly because he appreciates how rare it's been throughout his pro career. Moreno's been great, Hillman average and Ball below average, all of which is compounded by Hillman and Balls inadequate pass blocking and fumbles at the worst possible times.

Take away arguably our two best blockers and where does that leave the running game? Moreno's struggling while Hillman and Ball aren't even doing that much. We're not likely to pickup any All Pro linemen at this stage, nor is it likely our third stringers are hidden gems, which leaves few options save finding Moreno a new backup. Is it likely to be the difference? No. Is it likely to do any harm? No.

BroncoWave
10-26-2013, 07:55 PM
Rescue our running game? Our running game doesn't really need any rescuing. Moreno is doing just fine. If you want to say he is rescuing our backup running game, I guess that could be true. We still have to see how he does against starters, though.

Lancane
10-26-2013, 08:20 PM
It may be a combination. The line was run blocking well until our big bookends went down, but Moreno was the only one taking advantage of that opportunity, possibly because he appreciates how rare it's been throughout his pro career. Moreno's been great, Hillman average and Ball below average, all of which is compounded by Hillman and Balls inadequate pass blocking and fumbles at the worst possible times.

Take away arguably our two best blockers and where does that leave the running game? Moreno's struggling while Hillman and Ball aren't even doing that much. We're not likely to pickup any All Pro linemen at this stage, nor is it likely our third stringers are hidden gems, which leaves few options save finding Moreno a new backup. Is it likely to be the difference? No. Is it likely to do any harm? No.

Still Joel, you have to admit it is far too much press about an issue that holds very little significance in regards to the broader view of things that are an issue with this squad right now. It's not really positive or negative and makes as much a difference as Ramirez starting at center.

MOtorboat
10-26-2013, 08:22 PM
Still Joel, you have to admit it is far too much press about an issue that holds very little significance in regards to the broader view of things that are an issue with this squad right now. It's not really positive or negative and makes as much a difference as Ramirez starting at center.

They are doing so because fans made a big stink out of it in training camp. They just don't make things up, they write things people will read, and people seem to want to read about Anderson.

Ziggy
10-26-2013, 08:37 PM
As well as Moreno is playing, this team still can't convert a 3rd and short on the ground. The running game needs rescued. Teams have to be able to run when they need to in the playoffs. Period.

Joel
10-26-2013, 08:52 PM
Still Joel, you have to admit it is far too much press about an issue that holds very little significance in regards to the broader view of things that are an issue with this squad right now. It's not really positive or negative and makes as much a difference as Ramirez starting at center.
Sure, but it's one of the few things even the coaches and front office can change about a running game with multiple serious issues. If a planes wings detach at 40,000' releasing oxygen masks and donning flotation devices doesn't help, but distracts from a far more serious yet far more challenging problem. Its constructiveness is as dubious as you say, but I'm not DEFENDING it, simply suggesting a possible explanation.

MOtorboat's right about the fan-driven angle, too; Andersons brief preseason performance against second and third stingers got many fans stoked far out of proportion to its significance. Even that's kind of a chicken/egg thing though; that wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention had Hillman and Ball not both been so disappointing fans and reporters alike were looking for SOME encouraging performance from ANY running back. It's a short road from Anderson being the only back with a good preseason to expecting he'll be the only back with a good regular season.

We DO need such a back, because Moreno can't do it alone, and neither Hillman nor Ball have filled his shoes when he's sucking wind. Anderson's next choice because he is (or was) next behind them on the depth chart; in he goes. The press probably IS making too much of it, but we can't know till he plays. Once upon a time there was a guy no one heard of till a preseason Tokyo game where he laid out a kick returner. ;)


As well as Moreno is playing, this team still can't convert a 3rd and short on the ground. The running game needs rescued. Teams have to be able to run when they need to in the playoffs. Period.
All comes back to that. We converted those easily before Franklin and Clady went down, but the Colts game removed any doubt we could replace them. If anything, moving Vasquez to RT made things worse, because now he's out of position and Kuper's taken over for him on a bum leg, even though Kuper's always been a good pass blocker but iffy run blocker.

Nothing we can feasibly do now is likely to solve that problem, so talking about replacing Hillman/Ball with Anderson is at least as practical as talking trades for Joe Thomas. It's the same kind of thinking though.

dogfish
10-26-2013, 09:08 PM
cj1k


ftw

Lancane
10-26-2013, 09:12 PM
@Joel

See I fully disagree, I believe the team has not only the need but the means to change the situation. Rumors galore, fact is that the Broncos did inquire about Joe Thomas, even though the reality of such a trade is slim to none at this point, whereas the others about adding defensive linemen seems to be fan driven. Don't get me wrong, I understand both your point and Mo's, I simply disagree that the Front Office is doing all it can to assuage the problems plaguing them both offensively and defensively. Even a miniscule move would be positive in my honest opinion, because it would mean that they aware and know they need to fix it - but thus far I've seen the Tight Ends taking the majority of the blame and not staff regarding the thinness of the position or them trying to really fix it...so plug and play and hope for the best. So my opinion simply differs...

olathebroncofan
10-26-2013, 10:25 PM
How does cj compare in size to km?

Joel
10-26-2013, 10:30 PM
@Joel

See I fully disagree, I believe the team has not only the need but the means to change the situation. Rumors galore, fact is that the Broncos did inquire about Joe Thomas, even though the reality of such a trade is slim to none at this point, whereas the others about adding defensive linemen seems to be fan driven. Don't get me wrong, I understand both your point and Mo's, I simply disagree that the Front Office is doing all it can to assuage the problems plaguing them both offensively and defensively. Even a miniscule move would be positive in my honest opinion, because it would mean that they aware and know they need to fix it - but thus far I've seen the Tight Ends taking the majority of the blame and not staff regarding the thinness of the position or them trying to really fix it...so plug and play and hope for the best. So my opinion simply differs...
Fair enough; reasonable men can differ. The problem with trades is what we'd have to sacrifice (though the Browns will evidently trade half a roster for a playoff teams late picks.) Thomas is a recognized Pro Bowler in his prime, and plugging a hole at tackle wouldn't help if it created another where, say, Von Miller used to be, or Demaryius Thomas. That's especially true since we wouldn't need Clady AND Thomas once both were healthy, and trying to pay both would make keeping Miller and Demaryius that much harder. Maybe if we could get Thomas for Ball and Hillman, but the Browns are just stupid, not drooling imbeciles.

How many more knives can we juggle without dropping those already in the air? The nice thing about free agents is they can be signed after the trade deadline, without sacrificing current/future players; the bad thing is the best seldom hit the market, or stay on it long, and command high prices even though playing long enough to justify that usually puts them at or past their peak. All that said, if Ratliff's probably the best answer for our defensive line if he's healthy enough to start before seasons end; we'd gain pass rushing without losing what our current starters bring to run stuffing.

Joel
10-26-2013, 10:41 PM
How does cj compare in size to km?
Um, you know you're on the internet, right? So you can look that up as easily as anyone can? :tongue: NFL.com lists Knowshon at 5'11" 220 and Anderson at 5'8" 224. So Anderson's 3" shorter but a few lbs. heavier. Not bad for moving the pile in short yardage and/or goal line situations, but if he had break away speed and/or elusiveness to go with that someone probably would've drafted him.

ShaneFalco
10-27-2013, 12:14 AM
You guys honestly dont expect moreno from every down here till the superbowl... do you?

Lancane
10-27-2013, 02:18 AM
Fair enough; reasonable men can differ. The problem with trades is what we'd have to sacrifice (though the Browns will evidently trade half a roster for a playoff teams late picks.) Thomas is a recognized Pro Bowler in his prime, and plugging a hole at tackle wouldn't help if it created another where, say, Von Miller used to be, or Demaryius Thomas. That's especially true since we wouldn't need Clady AND Thomas once both were healthy, and trying to pay both would make keeping Miller and Demaryius that much harder. Maybe if we could get Thomas for Ball and Hillman, but the Browns are just stupid, not drooling imbeciles.

Joe Thomas is hardly the only tackle in the NFL that can man the left side, there are other options and as I said, I wouldn't be so hard on the Front Office if they were doing something, anything to fix the situation nor would I care so much if as I said they were not in 'Win Now' mode, but they are. Granted, it could be a nightmare having to pay for two All-Pro Tackles that play at the same spot, however there are options other then relying on a backup that is better suited for the right tackle spot in a bind more so then the left that wouldn't break the bank. Example: Adam Snyder, starting right guard of the San Francisco 49ers was a premier left tackle coming out of college, he played several positions for the 49ers including tackle, his versatility is a plus for most teams, if Kuper is near 100% an even trade would make sense, because Snyder is not a true right guard while Kuper is, or trade Kuper and throw in Bolden - San Francisco needs free safety and kick return help and it would open up another roster spot to bring someone in or up from the practice squad. Point is there are options, cheaper options other then sitting still and getting your quarterback killed and then throwing the blame on the Tight Ends.


How many more knives can we juggle without dropping those already in the air? The nice thing about free agents is they can be signed after the trade deadline, without sacrificing current/future players; the bad thing is the best seldom hit the market, or stay on it long, and command high prices even though playing long enough to justify that usually puts them at or past their peak. All that said, if Ratliff's probably the best answer for our defensive line if he's healthy enough to start before seasons end; we'd gain pass rushing without losing what our current starters bring to run stuffing.

And as I stated before, re-watch the film, the corners are playing so far off the receivers that quarterbacks are having career numbers against this defense. You said that Denver had a load of coverage sacks. We may have some, but if the coverage was that good then they wouldn't be giving up that many yards in the air and we'd have coverage sacks galore. People tend to point to the easiest thing to blame, point and case - Rahim Moore in the playoffs, except that Denver still had a chance to win, till Manning threw and interception, but Rahim Moore is still at fault. I'm not saying that what he did was smart football, but fans blaming him weren't smart in their analysis. I wouldn't be upset about Ratliff coming in, but until the defensive backs are playing the ball and not the receivers and trying to either break up the pass or intercept the ball, well it will be a lot of the same song and dance.


How many more knives can we juggle without dropping those already in the air?

The answer is as many as it takes, when you are in charge of putting out a competitive team, especially one assembled to win it all now, then you get off your a** and get it done, sometimes it's the job of the coaching staff or the personnel staff, if not both. But you do it, because not doing your letting down the team you've put together for it, your letting down the fans and faculty that counted on you doing it. Manning is here to win it, you can bet that is why Welker came to Denver as well. If you buy a dog to be a guard dog, you don't get to just chain it up and say so be it, you still have to feed it and take care of it, otherwise your nothing more then a cruel jack*** that deserves to be treated much the same.

:beer:

BroncoWave
10-27-2013, 08:09 AM
You guys honestly dont expect moreno from every down here till the superbowl... do you?

Who has said or even implied that they expect that?

olathebroncofan
10-27-2013, 09:37 AM
How does cj compare in size to km?
Um, you know you're on the internet, right? So you can look that up as easily as anyone can? :tongue: NFL.com lists Knowshon at 5'11" 220 and Anderson at 5'8" 224. So Anderson's 3" shorter but a few lbs. heavier. Not bad for moving the pile in short yardage and/or goal line situations, but if he had break away speed and/or elusiveness to go with that someone probably would've drafted him.

My boss told me that as I transition into a project manager role, I need to learn how to delegate tasks better. Thank you for finding the information for me.

SR
10-27-2013, 10:08 AM
My boss told me that as I transition into a project manager role, I need to learn how to delegate tasks better. Thank you for finding the information for me.

=you don't know where to look or what to look for.

olathebroncofan
10-27-2013, 10:11 AM
My boss told me that as I transition into a project manager role, I need to learn how to delegate tasks better. Thank you for finding the information for me.

=you don't know where to look or what to look for.

Wrong! I know what to look for and where to get it. But why go through the hassle when someone else can and will do it for you.

SR
10-27-2013, 10:12 AM
Wrong! I know what to look for and where to get it. But why go through the hassle when someone else can and will do it for you.

So you're admittedly lazy then? Good trait for a "project manager".

olathebroncofan
10-27-2013, 10:14 AM
Wrong! I know what to look for and where to get it. But why go through the hassle when someone else can and will do it for you.

So you're admittedly lazy then? Good trait for a "project manager".

Bids tks me that I need to learn how to become a fat lazy engineer. Got all that taken care of.

atwater27
10-27-2013, 10:55 AM
What in the hell does this have to do with CJ Anderson?

SR
10-27-2013, 11:01 AM
What in the hell does this have to do with CJ Anderson?

Everything.

Simple Jaded
10-27-2013, 11:20 AM
You guys honestly dont expect moreno from every down here till the superbowl... do you?

I don't expect to see him missing significant time like I did before.

Joel
10-27-2013, 11:24 AM
Joe Thomas is hardly the only tackle in the NFL that can man the left side, there are other options and as I said, I wouldn't be so hard on the Front Office if they were doing something, anything to fix the situation nor would I care so much if as I said they were not in 'Win Now' mode, but they are. Granted, it could be a nightmare having to pay for two All-Pro Tackles that play at the same spot, however there are options other then relying on a backup that is better suited for the right tackle spot in a bind more so then the left that wouldn't break the bank. Example: Adam Snyder, starting right guard of the San Francisco 49ers was a premier left tackle coming out of college, he played several positions for the 49ers including tackle, his versatility is a plus for most teams, if Kuper is near 100% an even trade would make sense, because Snyder is not a true right guard while Kuper is, or trade Kuper and throw in Bolden - San Francisco needs free safety and kick return help and it would open up another roster spot to bring someone in or up from the practice squad. Point is there are options, cheaper options other then sitting still and getting your quarterback killed and then throwing the blame on the Tight Ends.
It's not so much whether we can get Thomas specifically as whether we can get more than just a warm body without giving up someone we need just as badly elsewhere. Your example illustrates that, too: If Snyder's already a starting RG for a contender and could be as good/better at LT, why would they trade him for a former starter relegated to backup status due to an injury so severe it's lingered for two years, and may end his career? Even if we throw in a backup safety who's a good special teamer? A guy who can start two places, one critical, for two backups, one of whom so broken down he may retire?

The FO HAS made some moves. Wikipedias page on Justice starts by saying he was graded a first round talent but slipped to the second on character concerns, goes on to quote Umenyiora defending him in the press after abusing him to the point of humiliation, then notes he handled Terrell Suggs admirably in his next start. Frankly, his resume is better than Clarks, so perhaps the real question is why the latter's subbing for Clady. There are better guys out there, but none we'd WANT protecting Manning or pushing piles for Moreno will come cheap, and we aren't deep enough most places to "spare the horses" yet win a title.


And as I stated before, re-watch the film, the corners are playing so far off the receivers that quarterbacks are having career numbers against this defense. You said that Denver had a load of coverage sacks. We may have some, but if the coverage was that good then they wouldn't be giving up that many yards in the air and we'd have coverage sacks galore. People tend to point to the easiest thing to blame, point and case - Rahim Moore in the playoffs, except that Denver still had a chance to win, till Manning threw and interception, but Rahim Moore is still at fault. I'm not saying that what he did was smart football, but fans blaming him weren't smart in their analysis. I wouldn't be upset about Ratliff coming in, but until the defensive backs are playing the ball and not the receivers and trying to either break up the pass or intercept the ball, well it will be a lot of the same song and dance.
We DO have coverage sacks galore; I don't have film in front of me, but would bet we average >1.5 coverage sacks/game. Romo and many other QBs have had all day to throw passes, and usually NEEDED it; that suggests pretty good coverage, or they'd be routinely zipping first down passes out after 3-4 seconds. Our horrid passing totals don't tell the whole story any more than our excellent rushing totals; our big second half leads inflate the former and deflate the latter.

The real problem, IMHO, is our CBs are MUCH better than our safeties, hence we have a second year UDFA starting at SS. He may be better than Moore, too; giving up a playoff Hail Mary may have something to do with why our CBs play so far off: They cover well, but if someone gets behind them, we're in trouble. I don't disagree they should play the ball more and receivers less; I'm often frustrated that they give up catches (or penalties) trying to lay guys out instead of deflecting (or catching) balls. Yet that kind of aggressive play requires reliable safeties so missing's not an automatic TD, and we don't have those safeties.


The answer is as many as it takes, when you are in charge of putting out a competitive team, especially one assembled to win it all now, then you get off your a** and get it done, sometimes it's the job of the coaching staff or the personnel staff, if not both. But you do it, because not doing your letting down the team you've put together for it, your letting down the fans and faculty that counted on you doing it. Manning is here to win it, you can bet that is why Welker came to Denver as well. If you buy a dog to be a guard dog, you don't get to just chain it up and say so be it, you still have to feed it and take care of it, otherwise your nothing more then a cruel jack*** that deserves to be treated much the same.
You're not wrong, but I think there's a very good reason we keep trying to fill holes with FAs rather than trades: We can spare more money than players. If we could do it by throwing in draft picks, sure, because we're definitely in "win now" mode due to Manning and Champs rapidly closing windows. Unfortunately, everyone but Cleveland is smart enough to realize even a first round pick from a playoff team won't be in the top twenty; our draft picks aren't worth as much as Jacksonvilles. Look over the roster and ask yourself two questions:

1) Which players wouldn't we miss and 2) what can we get for them?

The front office is almost certainly doing the same, but coming up empty. Bench warmers are easy to find, but unless one side badly miscalculates game changers are usually traded for game changers. What frustrates me about fan trade discussions is most people don't realize what a Catch 22 it often is, so they end up talking about how one former Pro Bowler or another needs to be traded because he's hurt, aging, near the end of his contract, has off field issues: All the reasons fans cite for trading current/former stars lower their trade value, and the ones who don't have those red flags are the LAST ones we want to trade.

"We should trade Miller, because we'll lose him for the year if he's suspended again; we should trade Clady because he's hurt a lot." Yeah, everyone else knows that, too, so no one's going to offer us Aaron Rodgers or Adrian Peterson for either player. The time to trade for Peterson was when he was coming off season-ending surgery, not a year later when he came within 9 yards of breaking the single season rushing record.

So we look to free agency and the waiver wire, because there's no deadline and it "only" costs cap space. Game changers rarely hit the FA market though, if only because teams will try to trade guys they can't/won't keep, so they at least "get something." That's what makes Ratliff so appealing if he can play again this year: He only hit the market because of a spat with Jerry Jones while he was out with an injury that made him untradable, but he passed his last physical and is reportedly ready to sign with someone; better us than SF. He's a great run stuffer and decent rusher, so he'd significantly improve us.

Simple Jaded
10-27-2013, 11:31 AM
Alex Boone starts over Snyder in SF.

Does anyone know what's become of Jeff Otah? Last I heard he was healthy and trying to get back in NFL.

Joel
10-27-2013, 11:38 AM
My boss told me that as I transition into a project manager role, I need to learn how to delegate tasks better. Thank you for finding the information for me.
No problem, but I'm adding "football secretary" to my resume and listing you as a reference. :tongue: Among others.... ;)

In terms of time management though, I cited NFL.com because it's considered more reliable than Wikipedia (though in this case there's no difference,) but in my experience ESPNs site runs MUCH faster. NFL.com runs like a bunch of middle-aged jocks got their geeky teenage sons and nephews to design a website: It's very pretty, with lots of shiny graphics, videos and pop up pull down menus, but all that combined makes it move like molasses in January, crippling functionality. ESPN spams me with videos, too, but not to the point my computer freezes and I have to wait to scroll down to the data I actually WANTED.

Joel
10-27-2013, 11:58 AM
I don't expect to see him missing significant time like I did before.
If our line doesn't start blocking again that's EXACTLY what I expect. It was main cause before, and will be again if we don't do something about it, and soon. Franklin can't return soon enough; not only is he a road grader who's matured into a steady RT, but shifting Vasquez over instead of promoting Justice has reduced us to having just one lineman playing at his natural position. We both know whom that is, and what it therefore means. Pancaking safeties ten yards downfield is all well and good, but doesn't help much if a DT has already wrapped up Moreno behind the line.

Moreno averages >2 yards after contact yet couldn't convert 3rd and 1 last week: Where does that mean he usually got hit? That's not good for his production OR durability; it's a flashback to 2011, when McGahee led the NFL in yards after contact but he AND Moreno spent a frightening amount of time on crutches. I made a thread on this, but check it out if you haven't seen it (bring booze; you'll need it:) http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/10/25/5024040/replaying-the-broncos-run-game-against-colts


Alex Boone starts over Snyder in SF.
Sounds more like Justice then; we've already got a Justice, and didn't have to give up Kuper or anyone else in the process. I'd still probably take that deal just because of Kupers injury status and Snyders greater versatility, but same old deal: All the reasons it's a good idea for us makes it a bad idea for SF. Doesn't hurt to ask (as they say in bridge, always give the defense a chance to screw up,) but I'm not optimistic.


Does anyone know what's become of Jeff Otah? Last I heard he was healthy and trying to get back in NFL.
I only know what Wikipedia says: He started most of '09 before sidelined with injury, missed all of 2010 on IR after knee surgery, went BACK on IR for the knee 6 games into 2011 and the Panthers finally traded him to the Jets in the offseason—only to have the trade nullified when he failed two physicals, after which Carolina released him; he's currently a FA. Could go either way; after three years his knee's probably as good as it'll ever be, but if it wasn't healed after two full years he's probably done.

Dzone
10-27-2013, 01:19 PM
Joel must really type fast

Lancane
10-27-2013, 01:31 PM
Alex Boone starts over Snyder in SF.

Does anyone know what's become of Jeff Otah? Last I heard he was healthy and trying to get back in NFL.

That only makes him easier to acquire then. Snyder has started 83 out of 128 games for the 49ers, not to mention that he is not in his natural spot.

Joel
10-27-2013, 01:54 PM
Joel must really type fast
70 wpm on a good day, faster if I don't mind errors.


That only makes him easier to acquire then. Snyder has started 83 out of 128 games for the 49ers, not to mention that he is not in his natural spot.
The better he is the more he'll cost us; the cheaper he is the less he'll help us. Like I say, if they'll take a late pick for him, great, but otherwise....

Lancane
10-27-2013, 02:09 PM
70 wpm on a good day, faster if I don't mind errors.

The better he is the more he'll cost us; the cheaper he is the less he'll help us. Like I say, if they'll take a late pick for him, great, but otherwise....

He's a nine year veteran who has started at almost every position for the 49ers but never really got a shot at the position he was drafted, as a left tackle. Coming out of Oregon he was one of the most decorated left tackles in the nation, winning the Morris Trophy, which also was won by Matt Kalil, Levi Jones, Tony Boselli, Jonathan Ogden and former Broncos' great Gary Zimmerman, few offensive lineman who've won the Morris have been less then stellar. Put him in his natural position and I believe he'd be better then what we have and that versatility would come in handy once Clady returns.

Broncolingus
10-27-2013, 02:17 PM
I have no problem with this move...

Moreno is the #1, but hasn't looked strong short yardage situations - particularly lately...

...why not give CJ the (a) chance? ...and yes, of course lots for him to prove against 1st teamers.

As far as Hillman, I have no doubt he was told coming out of preseason to get his fumbling issues fixed...and he didn't - period.

The thing that's strange is Ball's absence...hard to believe he's not getting any playing time because of the fumble in NY...

...maybe he just hasn't looked good in practice?

Idk...

Joel
10-27-2013, 02:21 PM
He's a nine year veteran who has started at almost every position for the 49ers but never really got a shot at the position he was drafted, as a left tackle. Coming out of Oregon he was one of the most decorated left tackles in the nation, winning the Morris Trophy, which also was won by Matt Kalil, Levi Jones, Tony Boselli, Jonathan Ogden and former Broncos' great Gary Zimmerman, few offensive lineman who've won the Morris have been less then stellar. Put him in his natural position and I believe he'd be better then what we have and that versatility would come in handy once Clady returns.
That suggests we'd either have to give up more than a good special teamer/backup safety and a former starter on his last leg, or hope the '9ers undervalue Snyder. The better he is, the more he'd cost us.

ShaneFalco
10-27-2013, 06:54 PM
CJ looked good today, actually holds onto the ball.

SR
10-27-2013, 06:57 PM
CJ looked good today, actually holds onto the ball.

So did Ball. And Moreno.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-27-2013, 07:10 PM
I like that 3 man rotation. All 3 guys can run between the tackles.

VonDoom
10-27-2013, 07:26 PM
So did Ball. And Moreno.

Yes, exactly. I just looked at the box score, and statistically, no one blows you away (except for Moreno's receiving yards, which led the team!) but they ran solidly and didn't turn it over. I thought Anderson looked fast and decisive in his limited time out there.

Joel
10-27-2013, 07:31 PM
Yes, exactly. I just looked at the box score, and statistically, no one blows you away (except for Moreno's receiving yards, which led the team!) but they ran solidly and didn't turn it over. I thought Anderson looked fast and decisive in his limited time out there.
More so than Ball, IMHO. Not that Ball looked bad, but he kind of stutter stepped on that one carry down to the 1, and if just makes one cut and sprints I think that's a TD instead of the FG we settled for instead. Not a huge deal in a game like that, but last week it could've been the difference between winning and losing (though even the FG would've been better than what Hillman did.)

Broncolingus
10-27-2013, 07:38 PM
I liked what I saw out of CJ today...admittedly in very few looks.

About the ONLY thing Knowshon has looked a little weak on this year is rushes inside the 5 and on short yardage runs...

...but Ball and CJ (again, on a VERY few looks) appeared to be solid and I'm okay with them bashing it in those cases letting Knowshon avoid the beatings.

Unless a significant injury, I don't really care to see Hillman back active this season...

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 07:47 PM
So did Ball. And Moreno.

I agree, but if you look at Moreno's stat line, it's not that impressive. But he did really well. A lot of good stuff that doesn't get captured real well in the numbers. Punishing running. Effort and intensity. Catching not dropping (Moreno 6 targets, 6 catches 89 yards). Punishing blocking (didn't he lay out a defender?)

I'm not sure how CJ and Ball did with the non-statistical stuff, but at least they didn't cough it up.

But Moreno is playing so well. So damn well. I hope that dude stays healthy. Lord knows we can't afford losing another seasoned blocker.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:01 PM
I agree, but if you look at Moreno's stat line, it's not that impressive. But he did really well. A lot of good stuff that doesn't get captured real well in the numbers. Punishing running. Effort and intensity. Catching not dropping (Moreno 6 targets, 6 catches 89 yards). Punishing blocking (didn't he lay out a defender?) I'm not sure how CJ and Ball did with the non-statistical stuff, but at least they didn't cough it up. But Moreno is playing so well. So damn well. I hope that dude stays healthy. Lord knows we can't afford losing another seasoned blocker.

No, 120+ yards and a TD isn't that impressive at all...

Joel
10-27-2013, 08:03 PM
I liked what I saw out of CJ today...admittedly in very few looks.

About the ONLY thing Knowshon has looked a little weak on this year is rushes inside the 5 and on short yardage runs...

...but Ball and CJ (again, on a VERY few looks) appeared to be solid and I'm okay with them bashing it in those cases letting Knowshon avoid the beatings.

Unless a significant injury, I don't really care to see Hillman back active this season...
According to MHR, Moreno's averaging >2 yards after contact this year. He looked fine in short yardage till Clady and Franklin went down and Vasquez left his natural spot to help fill that void. The problem after that was the same problem he's had the rest of his career: It's hard to gain 5 yards when two guys are on him before the handoff. There was plenty of that today until the offensive line finally woke up after the two huge turnovers to start the second half; as I noted in the Game Day Thread there was one play where Beadles actually got shoved back and down so he swept Morenos legs from beneath him two yards behind the line.

We didn't see that kind of crap in the first four games, and I know because I fully expected and watched for it only to be pleasantly stunned when the line got some push in short yardage and opened holes that got Moreno 2-3 yards past the line so moving the pile or making the first guy miss resulted in a 5-6 yard gain instead of the 2-3 he gets when forced to do it on his own. They did that more today at the end of the third and start of the fourth quarter, but the rest of the game it was just like last week, and if that keeps up we can expect reminders of seasons more painful for Moreno than for any of us.

Beadles... I'm just resigning myself to Beadles never getting any push at the line, and hoping Moreno can outrun the defensive linemen that get through, then take advantage of Beadles pulling and making excellent downfield blocks on much smaller LBs and safeties. Once Franklin's healthy though I REALLY hope we run right more (just not enough to be predictable.) Let Beadles kick out and block over there, because Clark isn't good enough to take an RDE AND help Beadles with a DT. If we don't get that problem licked it won't matter who our starting back is.

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:04 PM
No, 120+ yards and a TD isn't that impressive at all...

Yeah, since when is YFS a stat? Bite me. You know I'm right.

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:04 PM
This is so 1st grade. SR you have kids, right? We are arguing about how much Moreno kicks ass.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:05 PM
Yeah, since when is YFS a stat? Bite me. You know I'm right.

What?

MOtorboat
10-27-2013, 08:05 PM
Yeah, since when is YFS a stat? Bite me. You know I'm right.

Bullshit. I'm sick and tired of people acting as if his receiving ability, especially in THIS offense, doesn't matter.

Moreno had 130+ yards actually and a touchdown and led the entire team in receiving. Time people recognize that and quit bitching that he's not Adrian Peterson. Mostly, because this isn't that pathetic offense, and it's not 1975.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:07 PM
This is so 1st grade. SR you have kids, right? We are arguing about how much Moreno kicks ass.



Your post was anything but "Moreno kicks ass"

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:08 PM
What?

Yards from scrimmage. Is that what you needed help with? You said 120+. I assume that was the total yards from scrimmage, a little math problem you did in your head since it's not a reported stat by any mainstream source. Really?

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:08 PM
Your post was anything but "Moreno kicks ass"

No way.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:09 PM
Yards from scrimmage. Is that what you needed help with? You said 120+. I assume that was the total yards from scrimmage, a little math problem you did in your head since it's not a reported stat by any mainstream source. Really?

Yards from scrimmage isn't a relevant stat? Weird, considering he led the TEAM, which includes receivers, in yards.

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:09 PM
Bullshit. I'm sick and tired of people acting as if his receiving ability, especially in THIS offense, doesn't matter.

Moreno had 130+ yards actually and a touchdown and led the entire team in receiving. Time people recognize that and quit bitching that he's not Adrian Peterson. Mostly, because this isn't that pathetic offense, and it's not 1975.

Jesus you two.

Just when I thought you two were an audience. :smh:

MOtorboat
10-27-2013, 08:11 PM
Jesus you two.

Just when I thought you two were an audience. :smh:

You're not doing a very good job of explaining your point.

If that's not your point, I apologize to you. My point is still relevant with many fans, though.

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:11 PM
Yards from scrimmage isn't a relevant stat? Weird, considering he led the TEAM, which includes receivers, in yards.

Of course it's a relevant stat. It's the MOST relevant. I'm defending him. You look at any source, and you'll see 14/44 as his rushing contribution. You won't see X/130+. If you do, link me up.

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:12 PM
I agree, but if you look at Moreno's stat line, it's not that impressive. But he did really well. A lot of good stuff that doesn't get captured real well in the numbers. Punishing running. Effort and intensity. Catching not dropping (Moreno 6 targets, 6 catches 89 yards). Punishing blocking (didn't he lay out a defender?)

I'm not sure how CJ and Ball did with the non-statistical stuff, but at least they didn't cough it up.

But Moreno is playing so well. So damn well. I hope that dude stays healthy. Lord knows we can't afford losing another seasoned blocker.

I highlighted all of the intangibles that aren't captured in 14/44 and complimented Moreno. What is missing?

SR
10-27-2013, 08:13 PM
Of course it's a relevant stat. It's the MOST relevant. I'm defending him. You look at any source, and you'll see 14/44 as his rushing contribution. You won't see X/130+. If you do, link me up. Who gives a shit? He had 130+ total yards, which in today's NFL, as far as a running back is concerned, touches and yards from scrimmage are most of what matters. And a lot of analysts taking about yards from scrimmage when mentioning stats.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:14 PM
I highlighted all of the intangibles that aren't captured in 14/44 and complimented Moreno. What is missing?

Your whole post was fine, but his stats were pretty ****** good

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:14 PM
You're not doing a very good job of explaining your point.

^ My point is that Moreno is kicking ass and most observers will focus on the 14/44 carries/yards as a measure, but he's much better than that if you take a complete look.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:14 PM
^ My point is that Moreno is kicking ass and most observers will focus on the 14/44 carries/yards as a measure, but he's much better than that if you take a complete look.

Fair enough

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:15 PM
Your whole post was fine, but his stats were pretty ****** good

Right, except for the 3ypc. That was the point. His receiving was brilliant, but I guess that tends to be overlooked by RBs, right? Or is that just me. The discussion of RB's tends to be focused on an old-school Sanders/Jim Brown need for 5.0+ ypc to validate skill at the position. Maybe that's just me.

Simple Jaded
10-27-2013, 08:16 PM
Even Slowshon fans can't agree on Slowshon.

SR
10-27-2013, 08:16 PM
Right, except for the 3ypc. That was the point. His receiving was brilliant, but I guess that tends to be overlooked by RBs, right? Or is that just me. The discussion of RB's tends to be focused on an old-school Sanders/Jim Brown need for 5.0+ ypc to validate skill at the position. Maybe that's just me.

It's slowly fading away as a single back backfield is becoming the exception and not the norm

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 08:16 PM
Who gives a shit? He had 130+ total yards, which in today's NFL, as far as a running back is concerned, touches and yards from scrimmage are most of what matters. And a lot of analysts taking about yards from scrimmage when mentioning stats.

Besides Hawgdriver and SR and MO, name a quality analyst that talks about YFS...

Foochacho
10-27-2013, 08:52 PM
Picked up that critical 4th and 2 and saw him hurdle someone again along the sideline. Knowshon doesn't have alot of speed but damn he runs hard and gives it his all. Our line is not creating big holes so he gets hit in the backfield alot. Our lline needs to pick it up so we can move the chains easier with the running game. We have to really work for just a couple yards. I like what I see from Knowshon though he is playing with fire.

SR
10-27-2013, 09:16 PM
Besides Hawgdriver and SR and MO, name a quality analyst that talks about YFS...

Ever watch a game with Darren Sproles? What about Reggie Bush? Have you watched a Pats game this year?

G_Money
10-27-2013, 09:23 PM
Knowshon has trouble inside on short yardage, but right now that's about ALL he has trouble with (and that's partly because our interior blocking isn't exactly moving mountains). If CJ Anderson can get low and get me the one yard that Knowshon struggles with (certain 4th down runs excepted) then we'll be fine. Ball is the backup, Hillman can watch and practice holding the ball... we're good.

Knowshon is doing everything I could reasonably ask him to do. Blitz pickups, smart and hard running with the ball either after the catch or out of the backfield, LOTS of effort and emotion, doesn't mind laying a dude out...

It may have taken him 4 years to figure out how to play in this league and give complete effort on every play, but he's doin' it now.

Just need somebody for goal-line / third-down work. I'm thinking it's Anderson, but it might be Ball - once Ball learns the lessons Moreno has figured out.

Either way, we've got both of em, and Moreno is unquestionably the most complete back on the roster. I'm proud of him.

~G

Dzone
10-27-2013, 09:28 PM
Have to admire the way Knowshon Moreno plays and his whole attitude and leadership by example. I like all our rbs, but Knowshon, hes got that aggressive attitude. We need him for the playoff run. Keep doing what he is doing to recover and stay healthy.

G_Money
10-27-2013, 09:31 PM
I like that we're not wearing him out. We're making sure that he gets touches but isn't getting completely beat up with 25, 30 carries a game or anything. We rotate backs well. He gets rest and balls in the open field rather than having a thousand pounds of dude sitting on his head all the time.

We seem to be learning how to use him better even as Knowshon figures out how to play to his best ability and strengths.

~G

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 09:42 PM
Ever watch a game with Darren Sproles? What about Reggie Bush? Have you watched a Pats game this year?

No, never. Didn't realize you were a Pats fan. Makes sense though, seeing you getting all sophisticated with these advance metrics.

Dude. You ever read a box score?

MOtorboat
10-27-2013, 09:54 PM
No, never. Didn't realize you were a Pats fan. Makes sense though, seeing you getting all sophisticated with these advance metrics.

Dude. You ever read a box score?

You are all over the map.

What is your point?

Dzone
10-27-2013, 10:00 PM
Lol

Hawgdriver
10-27-2013, 11:36 PM
You are all over the map.

What is your point?

My point is that Moreno is playing the position of RB well; however, his conventional stat line does not adequately convey this. Most fans look to see a RB's stat line by his attempts and total yardage. 44 yards rushing is hardly impressive. Yes, 89 yards receiving is impressive, and the average observer would notice this. Still, this combination of rushing and receiving would not be meaningfully captured in a single metric. Moreover, the other elements of solid play from the position would never be captured--his fire, play effectiveness rate, etc.

I'm drunk. Quit picking on me. It's unbecoming of a short person.

Truth be told, I'm a bit surprised at your reactions, because I give you both more credit than that for understanding the ramblings of a person like me. :mhs:

dogfish
10-28-2013, 12:07 AM
i got your back, hawg-- don't take no shit. . .



:defense:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-28-2013, 12:32 AM
I've been saying for two years Moreno is one of the best 3rd down backs in the league....take that suckas!
:laugh:


There's no doubt if he has one fumble or gets injured the vultures will start circling again.

Hawgdriver
10-28-2013, 12:42 AM
i got your back, hawg-- don't take no shit. . .



:defense:

Times like this.

Brothas gotta work it out.

And stop chasin.

artie_dale
10-28-2013, 07:33 AM
I don't know if our running game needed any rescuing that didn't involve benching Hillman, but I did like CJ's burst during yesterday's game. He's got good potential and if that's the case, Hillman may have fumbled his way off the team.

TXBRONC
10-28-2013, 09:31 AM
@Joel

See I fully disagree, I believe the team has not only the need but the means to change the situation. Rumors galore, fact is that the Broncos did inquire about Joe Thomas, even though the reality of such a trade is slim to none at this point, whereas the others about adding defensive linemen seems to be fan driven. Don't get me wrong, I understand both your point and Mo's, I simply disagree that the Front Office is doing all it can to assuage the problems plaguing them both offensively and defensively. Even a miniscule move would be positive in my honest opinion, because it would mean that they aware and know they need to fix it - but thus far I've seen the Tight Ends taking the majority of the blame and not staff regarding the thinness of the position or them trying to really fix it...so plug and play and hope for the best. So my opinion simply differs...

Lancane where are you getting your information that Denver did inquire about Joe Thomas? Inquiring about him doesn't mean much. I have a hard accusing the front office of doing nothing because I dont know. I do know that making in season trade is all that easy. First there salary cap to consider and second, more problems may be created than are resolved.

Lancane
10-28-2013, 12:10 PM
Lancane where are you getting your information that Denver did inquire about Joe Thomas? Inquiring about him doesn't mean much. I have a hard accusing the front office of doing nothing because I dont know. I do know that making in season trade is all that easy. First there salary cap to consider and second, more problems may be created than are resolved.

No, you're right that it doesn't mean much, except that it would show the Front Office was concerned enough about the offensive line to even inquire on a possible move that would have had certain ramifications for the organization down the road. And is anyone going to really argue that the offensive line is still a problem? Despite the win against Washington, Manning was continually pressured once again, sacked 3 times for a loss of 25 yards and knockdown three times that? And Washington's defense isn't that good, neither was Indianapolis' or Jacksonville's, and that has to be a worry going into the bye week because we'll be facing three Top 10 Defenses down the second stretch and one of those defenses twice in KC. Yeah, I am concerned and I think the Front Office should be, and maybe they are - but it doesn't help to ignore the situation either.

Ravage!!!
10-28-2013, 12:53 PM
All NFL teams will get to the QB. One thing that is REALLY pissing me off is that Manning is for some reason refusing to throw the ball away and taking sacks. He rolled out, and had TONS of time to simply throw the ball away and not take the hit. Instead, he held and held and held. Same thing against the Colts. The safety sack, was on Manning.

Joel
10-28-2013, 02:45 PM
Ever watch a game with Darren Sproles? What about Reggie Bush? Have you watched a Pats game this year?
There was this dude one time named Marshall Faulk; won a SB, lost another. And this other dude before that named Herschel Walker; he was never on a SB team, but Minnesota traded Dallas one just to get him.

Yards from scrimmage is a real thing, yeah—ESPECIALLY for Peyton Manning, who lived off it with James and Addai.


All NFL teams will get to the QB. One thing that is REALLY pissing me off is that Manning is for some reason refusing to throw the ball away and taking sacks. He rolled out, and had TONS of time to simply throw the ball away and not take the hit. Instead, he held and held and held. Same thing against the Colts. The safety sack, was on Manning.
Where was he rolled out and refusing to throw the ball away on the safety sack? http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2013/10/robert-mathis-big-hit-on-peyton-causes-fumble-and-safety-video/

He was in the pocket (to the extent there was one) and stripped from behind as he cocked to throw. Same with his interception in the second half. Same with his strip-sack yesterday. Never left the pocket, was cocking to throw; blindsided and stripped/tipped. Unless he's got eyes in the back of his head, that's not on Manning: His pass blockers need to do their job.

That's from a guy who's far from a Manning groupie, but maybe that's the problem: When Clady and Franklin went down everyone insisted Manning doesn't need blockers because he went to SBs with scrub linemen—except he had two Pro Bowlers blocking for him the year he won, which probably has more to with his 14 sacks in 16 starts (it was 17 the previous year) than Mannings elusiveness does. His brother's an elusive scrambler; Peyton's a pure pocket passer, which means he needs a POCKET.

The running theme there is WHOEVER our passers/runners are won't do much without better blocking. Trade deadline's tomorrow, so it's not likely we can do much about it now; just have to cross our fingers, hope Clark grows up fast (or Justice is a much better replacement,) everyone still standing stays that way, and pray.

slim
10-28-2013, 06:54 PM
Holy cow...MO and SR are both pretty slow.

SR
10-28-2013, 06:58 PM
Holy cow...MO and SR are both pretty slow.

You are

slim
10-28-2013, 06:58 PM
You are

That is true.