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TXBRONC
09-08-2009, 08:05 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13288338

Kiszla: Simms a better choice at Cincy
By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/08/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT
Updated: 09/08/2009 01:27:40 AM MDT


You think the Broncos have dealt with too much melodrama at quarterback?

It has only just begun.

Do you know who the team's starting quarterback will be when Denver opens the regular season?

Josh McDaniels cannot be absolutely, 100 percent positive about the answer to that crucial question as he awakens this morning, only five days before the first game that counts on his record as an NFL coach.

With the spy-versus-spy secrecy the Broncos give to injuries, believe anything you hear this week regarding the health of the QBs at your own risk.

When last I saw him, Kyle Orton was lounging in the press box at a football stadium in Denver, with his feet propped on a chair while he nursed a busted throwing hand as teammates played their final preseason game. He looked more ready to order a pizza than strap on a helmet.

Is this the quarterback whom McDaniels really wants to trust to lead his team in the season opener at Cincinnati, where the Broncos have been established as 4 1/2-point underdogs?

Just say no, Kid McD.

At 100 percent efficiency, Orton is a mediocre NFL quarterback.

The Broncos might well have a better chance to win with a quarterback who hasn't thrown a touchdown pass in the league since 2006.

Go ahead, call me crazy in an upper extremity. But if there's any way Chris Simms can jog to the Denver huddle on his gimpy ankle, I say he would be a better choice to start than Orton, who looked unprepared for the job before suffering an injury that could adversely affect his every pass.

Sure, Orton will go out today at practice and test the dislocated knuckle that poked through the skin on his right index finger.

After obtaining Orton in a controversial trade for Jay Cutler, naming the former Chicago Bears quarterback his starter before training camp began and giving him all the meaningful work with Denver's first-string offense, there's no mystery about which quarterback McDaniels wants to take the field against the Bengals.

But since joining the Broncos, Orton has stunk in the red zone, done nothing to win the public's confidence and gotten himself hurt.

Anybody who has seen Simms throw knows he has a stronger arm than does Orton.

Anybody who has spent five minutes around Simms also knows he exudes a stronger sense of confidence than does Orton.

On a Broncos team searching for an identity, shouldn't superior physical tools and greater self-reliance count for something?

Although the NFL is a quarterback-obsessed league, if McDaniels is to surpass the dire predictions for failure during his rookie campaign, the young coach must find a way to let everybody except the QB define this team's personality.

Denver needs to look smart for taking Knowshon Moreno with the first draft choice of the McDaniels era, for if the Broncos are correct, they will have a wow factor at running back for the first time since Mike Shana- han traded Clinton Portis.

The stubborn patience to keep Brandon Marshall through his trade demands and infantile outbursts is a gamble McDaniels needs to pay off, because the disgruntled receiver creates the space in the secondary that will give the Denver fast-breaking, short- passing offense room to operate.

For all the cries that each interception Orton threw during the preseason was proof positive the sky was falling, could there also be something of meaning in those meaningless exhibitions when the reworked Broncos defense allowed a respectable 17.8 points per game?

Maybe the smart bet is Orton will play quarterback in Cincy, and the Broncos will send McDaniels back home with a loss.

But here's thinking the most stunning thing we could see is Marshall celebrating the first Denver touchdown of 2009 on a pass from Simms.

Haven't we had enough with upsetting every Broncomaniac in town?

It's time for the Broncos to pull an upset.

Mark Kiszla: 303-954-1053 or mkiszla@denverpost.com

Elevation inc
09-08-2009, 08:49 AM
i agree. i would love for simms to get the call, im sick of the excuses being made for orton, i gave him a chnace and backed him, but after what i have seen the facts to my eyes are that he will suck in this system does have a weak arm, cant take care of the football, sucks in the redzone, and after the left haded INT well that was the final straw for me.....i pray simms comes in and absolutely destroys cincy....

girler
09-08-2009, 09:01 AM
I've wanted Simms to be the starter since we acquired him. :salute: He's always impressed me. I don't care if he is missing a spleen. :rolleyes:

TXBRONC
09-08-2009, 09:04 AM
i agree. i would love for simms to get the call, im sick of the excuses being made for orton, i gave him a chnace and backed him, but after what i have seen the facts to my eyes are that he will suck in this system does have a weak arm, cant take care of the football, sucks in the redzone, and after the left haded INT well that was the final straw for me.....i pray simms comes in and absolutely destroys cincy....

I like Simms' arm better than Orton's but I am concerned about Simms' durability.

MOtorboat
09-08-2009, 09:09 AM
People without spleens just can't be trusted, imo.

:vroam:

Denver Native (Carol)
09-08-2009, 10:09 AM
This morning, Vic and Gary were talking about the schedule that the Broncos had released to the press, and they said that Orton will be meeting with the press (I think today), and they said that the starting qb is the one who meets with the press, so if that is true, it looks like Orton is starting - and then they threw in, unless they do not want to give Cincinnati an indication who is starting.

WARHORSE
09-08-2009, 10:30 AM
McDaniels........who wants to win........is not going to play the QB who proves to him in practice to be the second string QB.

Orton was named the starter for a reason, and either way, in the end the situation will play itself out.

Once again, we have all the WRs learning all the positions for receivers.

The Patriots QBs threw six picks in last years preseason before they threw a single TD.

The offense is hard on QBs early and they hate it.........but love it later when everyone gets on the same page.

Every game Orton played for us......he showed improvement.

I dont believe his dislocation penetrated the skin. I dont even believe he dislocated it. I honestly believe all he did was cut his finger open on the glove of the defender.

Open dislocations dont reset themselves. On the replays, his finger never looked out of joint.

Orton....imo....probably has some swelling that accompanies a bad cut. Its just me, but I think Orton plays.


And Im giving him, McDaniels, the defense and all the Broncos nothing but support going in.

I only look for one thing: winning.

CoachChaz
09-08-2009, 10:36 AM
Orton will be the starter and will be just fine.

dunk7
09-08-2009, 10:38 AM
Orton will be the starter and will be just fine.

What flavor of Koolaid do you prefer, Orange or Blue?

Ravage!!!
09-08-2009, 10:39 AM
well. I do believe it was dislocated because you don't see any person (not to mention player) react to a cut finger like Orton did on the sideline. You could see the PAIN in his face and worry that something was serious. YOu wouldn't have that look if it was simply a cut-e-boo.

That being said. I have liked the looks of Simms a lot more than I have Orton. However, I think McDaniels HAS to believe Orton is the guy since he specifically took Orton over other choices. He's not then going to put him as second string. I don't think his ego will allow it.

T.K.O.
09-08-2009, 10:45 AM
What flavor of Koolaid do you prefer, Orange or Blue?

i like both.....OH YEAH !:D

Elevation inc
09-08-2009, 10:47 AM
I like Simms' arm better than Orton's but I am concerned about Simms' durability.

orton has been quite unhealthy himself the last few years.....and despite durability its clear to me simms or even brandy give this team the better chance to win.....

CrazyHorse
09-08-2009, 10:16 PM
Absolutely!
I think Simms will be the starter sometime this year.
Maybe even Brandstater too.
If not for Orton's play, then it will be due to injury.
Orton's not as mobile as Jay was and the O-line seemed a bit shaky not running the ZBS.
He'll have to endure more punishment than Cutler, although probably not as much as he did with the Bears.
It's time to let another Superbowl Winning QB's son lead the franchise again.

girler
09-08-2009, 10:22 PM
Absolutely!
I think Simms will be the starter sometime this year.
Maybe even Brandstater too.
If not for Orton's play, then it will be due to injury.
Orton's not as mobile as Jay was and the O-line seemed a bit shaky not running the ZBS.
He'll have to endure more punishment than Cutler, although probably not as much as he did with the Bears.
It's time to let another Superbowl Winning QB's son lead the franchise again.

Oh dear. That's not really all that motivating.

MOtorboat
09-08-2009, 10:25 PM
The backup quarterback is always the most popular man in town.

I'll trust the coach. Although, I know there are a lot of you out there who aren't capable of that.

Lonestar
09-08-2009, 10:32 PM
The backup quarterback is always the most popular man in town.

I'll trust the coach. Although, I know there are a lot of you out there who aren't capable of that.


As do I Josh has made some tough decisions in the past 8-9 months.. who the starter in an away game is not brain surgery..

kizla well, he is a pot stirrer not much else..

dogfish
09-08-2009, 10:37 PM
Absolutely!
I think Simms will be the starter sometime this year.
Maybe even Brandstater too.
If not for Orton's play, then it will be due to injury.
Orton's not as mobile as Jay was and the O-line seemed a bit shaky not running the ZBS.
He'll have to endure more punishment than Cutler, although probably not as much as he did with the Bears.
It's time to let another Superbowl Winning QB's son lead the franchise again.

ZBS is a run-blocking scheme, it doesn't have anything to do with pass protection-- all pass pro is man-to-man. . . . :listen:

CrazyHorse
09-08-2009, 11:12 PM
Oh dear. That's not really all that motivating.
I remind you Griese was a Probowl caliber quarterback.
That probably had more to do with talent surrounding him though.


ZBS is a run-blocking scheme, it doesn't have anything to do with pass protection-- all pass pro is man-to-man. . . . :listen:

What about bootlegs and similar plays?

nevcraw
09-08-2009, 11:15 PM
I remind you Griese was a Probowl caliber quarterback.
That probably had more to do with talent surrounding him though.




What about bootlegs and similar plays?

West Coast offense?

http://football.about.com/od/offensivestrategy/a/West-Coast.htm

The West Coast Offense, as developed by former San Francisco 49ers head coach Bill Walsh, is a finesse offense that utilizes a short passing game designed to control the ball.
In most conventional offenses, the idea is to run the ball to draw the safeties and linebackers in closer to the line of scrimmage, thus opening up passing lanes for a vertical attack. The West Coast Offense does just the opposite, using a quick, horizontal passing attack to set up the running game.

The West Coast Offense employs a variety of formations and pre-snap motions designed to confuse defenders. It also relys heavily on an ability to flood a defense with more receivers than they can handle. The quarterback often moves around more than in a conventional offense with designed rollouts and bootlegs that are tied in with the patterns being run by the receivers.

Elevation inc
09-09-2009, 08:05 AM
The backup quarterback is always the most popular man in town.

I'll trust the coach. Although, I know there are a lot of you out there who aren't capable of that.

trust should be earned not given freely without any basis.....

CrazyHorse
09-09-2009, 08:49 AM
Let me clarify...
I know the zone blocking scheme is used as run blocking scheme as an extension of the West Coast Offense.
However aren't some of the elements of zone blocking such as zonelocking/manlocking used in pass protection for example in the circumstances of playaction/bootlegs because it's set up as a running play?

From what I read McDaniels won't abandon this scheme but will include other elements such as pulling guards etc...
This should help our red zone woes as that is one of the weaknesses of ZBS.

Ravage!!!
09-09-2009, 09:46 AM
From what I read McDaniels won't abandon this scheme but will include other elements such as pulling guards etc...
This should help our red zone woes as that is one of the weaknesses of ZBS.

Which bothers me a bit... simply because last year, the Patriot's (without Brady) Cassel was the WORST QB the NFL in the red-zone.. AND... Cassel took more hits and was sacked the most in the NFL. The Patriots OL is pretty good, and Cassel is pretty damned mobile.

I only say that, because if he's making changes that duplicates THAT system, and a highly mobile QB was sacked and hit the most, and the 'great' Matt Cassel was the worst in the NFL in the red-zone..... I don't see how changing the blocking will help our woes. But we'll see.

Ravage!!!
09-09-2009, 09:50 AM
The backup quarterback is always the most popular man in town.

I'll trust the coach. Although, I know there are a lot of you out there who aren't capable of that.

But as Inc said, that should be earned MUCH more than it should simply be given. Cutler trusted McDaniels at first, too :D ;) (just joking)

But we can't forget that the coach (and I mean ALL coaches) DOES have a stake in who he picks as the starting QB. We can't assume they aren't human, and aren't making decisions based on ego. Lets face it. McDaniels has been put through the wringer on this trade for Orton (and rightfully so)... so you can't just toss out the fact that he absolutely feels he MUST make that decision look like the right one.

There was NO WAY he was going to make that trade, then put someone else as the starting QB they could have gotten for free.... OR.. not have the QB from Washington on the roster.

TXBRONC
09-09-2009, 10:11 AM
But as Inc said, that should be earned MUCH more than it should simply be given. Cutler trusted McDaniels at first, too :D ;) (just joking)

But we can't forget that the coach (and I mean ALL coaches) DOES have a stake in who he picks as the starting QB. We can't assume they aren't human, and aren't making decisions based on ego. Lets face it. McDaniels has been put through the wringer on this trade for Orton (and rightfully so)... so you can't just toss out the fact that he absolutely feels he MUST make that decision look like the right one.

There was NO WAY he was going to make that trade, then put someone else as the starting QB they could have gotten for free.... OR.. not have the QB from Washington on the roster.

True McDaniels have vested interest starting Orton because part of the reason he traded Cutler to the Bears was for Orton. Even if he were to take heat for starting Simms over Orton he could still do it because he is the head coach.

Kaylore
09-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Let me clarify...
I know the zone blocking scheme is used as run blocking scheme as an extension of the West Coast Offense.
However aren't some of the elements of zone blocking such as zonelocking/manlocking used in pass protection for example in the circumstances of playaction/bootlegs because it's set up as a running play?

Sometimes this is so, but the majority of Denver's snaps last year were pass plays with Cutler in the shotgun which means the defense knew most of the time it was a pass and they were man blocking in those instances. Bottom line is that Denver's pass pro has no reason to be worse this year once Kuper gets back.

And speaking to the topic at hand, Simms isn't good. He holds the ball too long and can't throw accurately from the pocket. His footwork stinks and in that area alone, Brandstater is already better than him.

The smart football observers should have seen who wrote this article and immediately assumed whatever was said, the opposite is true.

TXBRONC
09-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Sometimes this is so, but the majority of Denver's snaps last year were pass plays with Cutler in the shotgun which means the defense knew most of the time it was a pass and they were man blocking in those instances. Bottom line is that Denver's pass pro has no reason to be worse this year once Kuper gets back.

And speaking to the topic at hand, Simms isn't good. He holds the ball too long and can't throw accurately from the pocket. His footwork stinks and in that area alone, Brandstater is already better than him.

The smart football observers should have seen who wrote this article and immediately assumed whatever was said, the opposite is true.

Orton seemed to be having the same problem with his footwork in preseason games that he played in.

broncobryce
09-09-2009, 11:40 AM
But as Inc said, that should be earned MUCH more than it should simply be given. Cutler trusted McDaniels at first, too :D ;) (just joking)

But we can't forget that the coach (and I mean ALL coaches) DOES have a stake in who he picks as the starting QB. We can't assume they aren't human, and aren't making decisions based on ego. Lets face it. McDaniels has been put through the wringer on this trade for Orton (and rightfully so)... so you can't just toss out the fact that he absolutely feels he MUST make that decision look like the right one.

There was NO WAY he was going to make that trade, then put someone else as the starting QB they could have gotten for free.... OR.. not have the QB from Washington on the roster.

Everyone knows Orton was injured, so he could just say Orton isn't ready yet. In the situation you're saying he would still be safe because it's not his fault Orton got hurt.

Ravage!!!
09-09-2009, 11:42 AM
True McDaniels have vested interest starting Orton because part of the reason he traded Cutler to the Bears was for Orton. Even if he were to take heat for starting Simms over Orton he could still do it because he is the head coach.

of course he could still do it, and I'm not saying he won't. But when you hear the "I'll trust the coach" comments, you have to point out that sometimes the coaches don't do what may be better for the team, but do what is better for THEM. Their necks are on the line, and decisions like that trade are a HUGE factor in your tenure. Benching Orton for Simms would be cutting his throat to the media, and the media can get more eyes watching.

I'm just saying.... everyone is looking out for themselves.

Ravage!!!
09-09-2009, 11:44 AM
Everyone knows Orton was injured, so he could just say Orton isn't ready yet. In the situation you're saying he would still be safe because it's not his fault Orton got hurt.

I said previously that the best thing for him would be for Orton to be hurt.... through four games.

But its against the rules to put a player on the bench if they aren't hurt and SAY its because of injury. So it would have to come out that Simms was starting, it wasn't for injury (this rule is set into place to eliminate point shaving and betting frauds).

topscribe
09-10-2009, 12:37 AM
I like Simms' arm better than Orton's


Really?



The other perception that has followed Orton to Denver is that he doesn't
have the strength to throw deep. While no one is going to confuse Orton with
Cutler when it comes to sheer power, Orton, McDaniels and several Broncos
receivers insist there is not a throw that Orton isn't strong enough to make.

"Perception is everything in this league, and a lot of times, unless you're a
self-promoter, it can become negative," Orton said.

Still, the fact that Orton's longest completion of the preseason was 26 yards
hasn't helped diminish the perception.

Orton's high school coach from Southeast Polk High in Runnels, Iowa, knows
the deep-ball threat is there, and always has been. Kent Horstmann recalled
taking Orton to a quarterback camp at Purdue in 2000, the summer before
Orton's senior year of high school.

At age 17, Orton won the long-ball competition with a heave of 78 yards,
beating all other high school boys — and one NFL quarterback, Jon Kitna, then
with the Seahawks, who happened to be visiting camp.

"He could really throw the football," Horstmann said. "Certainly he had the
best arm I've ever seen at this level."

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13288566

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pipes
09-10-2009, 12:43 AM
Really?



http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13288566

-----

Just think how much further he could throw it if he actually got in the gym and grew a muscle on his arm. ;)

I kid, I kid....I'm actually starting to get really geeked up for the upcoming season and to see the new offense-regular season offense NOT preseason offense.

dogfish
09-10-2009, 12:54 AM
crazy. . . i didnt know orton won the punt, pass and kick competition. . . .

TXBRONC
09-10-2009, 12:03 PM
Really?



http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13288566

-----

Where did I say Orton's arm is weak? :confused:

Superchop 7
09-10-2009, 12:22 PM
That would be my job.


I dunno guys, high ankle sprains can be a *****.

Gotta let the docs call this one.

topscribe
09-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Where did I say Orton's arm is weak? :confused:

You didn't, and I didn't accuse you of that, did I? I was just pointing out that
I seriously doubt that Simms has a better arm than Orton. Orton has a stronger
arm than Peyton Manning (68 yards) and Tom Brady (67 yards) and, according
to records, can actually throw with Favre (77 yards). (All distances registered in
QB Challenges.)

Of course, someone will quickly point out that accuracy counts, too, and that
is where the others have had it over Orton on passing deep. However, from
reports out of camp and OTAs, Simms has not been as accurate as Orton, which
is likely one reason Orton is starting and Simms is not . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
09-10-2009, 02:53 PM
ugh..we are seriously using QB challenges as the indicator of arm strength??? really?

topscribe
09-10-2009, 02:54 PM
ugh..we are seriously using QB challenges as the indicator of arm strength??? really?

In the QB Challenge, the QB winds up and heaves the ball as far as he can.

Yes, I would say throwing as far as one can would be a good indicator . . .

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Requiem / The Dagda
09-10-2009, 03:00 PM
Yeah, not really.

By that measuring stick, my lifetime friend who was a WR to QB convert in high school has the same arm strength as two of the greatest NFL Quarterbacks to play the game. Somehow I highly doubt that.

topscribe
09-10-2009, 03:07 PM
I would rather stick to documented cases . . .

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Requiem / The Dagda
09-10-2009, 03:14 PM
It is a documented case. I was there. So were the coaches. So were teammates. Just because you can toss a ball that far doesn't mean you have a strong arm.

topscribe
09-10-2009, 03:17 PM
Inasmuch as I understand you would dearly love to derail the issue, what I did
was to respond to the comment that Simms' arm may be better than Orton's.
While I don't know how strong Simms' arm is, I simply produced some figures to
cast some doubt on that assumption.

That is my point, and I'm sticking to it. End of story . . . :coffee:

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Ravage!!!
09-10-2009, 03:19 PM
In the QB Challenge, the QB winds up and heaves the ball as far as he can.

Yes, I would say throwing as far as one can would be a good indicator . . .

-----

Not to me... no. THey don't just stand their.. they take a running start at it.. some more than others.

Sorry... but you can watch and see that Manning's deep OUT or hitting the deep cross is a lot stronger than Orton's. THAT's where arm strength comes into play in the NFL... not the friggin deep ball.

I realize you've never played QB in your life top, but let me tell you that the deep pass is NOT the sign of a strong passing arm. I could throw the ball further than our starting QBs in college, but their tight, on-a-rope passes to the sidelines is what made them the starters.

I think we had this same discussion regarding the arm strength of Plummer as well.

QB "challenge" passes .... or the Punt-pass-n-kick competitions do NOT signify who really has a strong arm.



P.S. ... end of story :coffee:

Requiem / The Dagda
09-10-2009, 03:23 PM
My response was on point to Ravage's comment criticizing using measurements from the QB Challenges in Hawaii or whenever they do them as an indicator of arm strength. There are plenty of videos across the internet with HS quarterbacks, college guys, etc. being able to throw the ball 60+. That doesn't mean they have as strong of arms as Manning, Brady and the other elites of the game.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-10-2009, 03:24 PM
Not to me... no. THey don't just stand their.. they take a running start at it.. some more than others.

Sorry... but you can watch and see that Manning's deep OUT or hitting the deep cross is a lot stronger than Orton's. THAT's where arm strength comes into play in the NFL... not the friggin deep ball.

I realize you've never played QB in your life top, but let me tell you that the deep pass is NOT the sign of a strong passing arm. I could throw the ball further than our starting QBs in college, but their tight, on-a-rope passes to the sidelines is what made them the starters.

I think we had this same discussion regarding the arm strength of Plummer as well.

QB "challenge" passes .... or the Punt-pass-n-kick competitions do NOT signify who really has a strong arm.



P.S. ... end of story :coffee:

Bingo. Moreover, read any scouting report on Kyle Orton coming out of Purdue and they'll talk about how his throwing motion hurts his touch and ability to throw the deep ball. His arm isn't nearly as strong as people have tried to indicate.

topscribe
09-10-2009, 03:32 PM
Not to me... no. THey don't just stand their.. they take a running start at it.. some more than others.

Sorry... but you can watch and see that Manning's deep OUT or hitting the deep cross is a lot stronger than Orton's. THAT's where arm strength comes into play in the NFL... not the friggin deep ball.

I realize you've never played QB in your life top, but let me tell you that the deep pass is NOT the sign of a strong passing arm. I could throw the ball further than our starting QBs in college, but their tight, on-a-rope passes to the sidelines is what made them the starters.

I think we had this same discussion regarding the arm strength of Plummer as well.

I know you have a tough time keeping from referring wayyyyy back to
Plummer. That's far back enough now that you could now have a ball twisting
around what I said about Plummer, couldn't you?

Nonetheless, after some50+ years of playing and watching football, including
considerable time in pads on the same field with QBs on the high school and
college levels, I think I know just a little bit about it.

And I have observed Orton and Manning throwing deep outs. While Manning
has been more accurate there than Orton (and just about everyone else), to
say it is a "LOT" stronger than Orton's is exaggerating.

So that's enough now about Manning and Plummer. My response centered on
Orton vs. Simms, with only a side reference to other QBs. So you might want
to hijack the thread with this, but I don't. So enough of this . . .

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dogfish
09-10-2009, 03:45 PM
among quarterbacks who attempted over 200 passes last year, only tyler thigpen, marc bulger and ryan fitzpatrick had lower averages per play than orton's 6.4 yards per play (which was actually significantly higher than his career average of 5.8). . . don't blame his line and receivers, either-- guys like shaun hill, trent edwards and jeff garcia didn't have much more to work with. . .

the REAL measure of arm strength in the NFL is, as rav indicated, how much velocity a guy gets on the intermediate throws like the fifteen yard outs to the sideline, and his ability to fit the ball through tight windows when he has to have it and his receiver doesn't have a lot of separation. . . when i've watched orton, from purdue to chicago up to preseason here, i've never seen him display any confidence in his ability to fit the ball into the tight spaces that top NFL QBs have to. . . IMO he's a dink and dunk, check down, throw it away type of passer who doesn't have the confidence in his own arm to challenge NFL defensive backs or consistently make all the throws that you need to at this level. . . that type of QB is okay if you have a top five defense, but unfortunately we don't. . .

i'd love to have orton prove me wrong, but i'm sure not going to hold my breath. . . .

Overtime
09-10-2009, 03:53 PM
screw Simms and Orton. Put in Brandstater, develop the rookie, and let's get this team back on track.

Simms and Orton are both subpar, and mediocre QB's who couldn't lead a horse to a pond to drink water.

Ravage!!!
09-10-2009, 03:54 PM
So that's enough now about Manning and Plummer. My response centered on
Orton vs. Simms, with only a side reference to other QBs. So you might want
to hijack the thread with this, but I don't. So enough of this . . .

-----

YOU are the one that brought up the other QBs, top. You can't make an absurd reference and expect people to simply let it go because YOU dont' want to be called on it.

I only brought up Plummer for ONE reason, and that is because you have a tendency (a pattern) to believe the QBs we bring in have stronger arms than most around the NFL do. Plummer was known for not having a strong arm, yet you defended and defended by using an example of some college long throw you swore you saw (undocumented btw ;) ). Now you are stating that Orton (who is known for not having a strong arm) has a stronger arm than people believe because of some deep throw in a QB challenge.

Its become somewhat of a pattern. The same type of passes somehow prove that these QBs have strong arms. Perhaps if you just had more than these silly QB challenges.

You made it read, in your post, that your points were 'fact' instead of opinion by bringing up the 'stats' of this QB challenge and the names of some other NFL quarterbacks.

Some of us aren't buying into these as facts.

topscribe
09-10-2009, 04:00 PM
among quarterbacks who attempted over 200 passes last year, only tyler thigpen, marc bulger and ryan fitzpatrick had lower averages per play than orton's 6.4 yards per play (which was actually significantly higher than his career average of 5.8). . . don't blame his line and receivers, either-- guys like shaun hill, trent edwards and jeff garcia didn't have much more to work with. . .

the REAL measure of arm strength in the NFL is, as rav indicated, how much velocity a guy gets on the intermediate throws like the fifteen yard outs to the sideline, and his ability to fit the ball through tight windows when he has to have it and his receiver doesn't have a lot of separation. . . when i've watched orton, from purdue to chicago up to preseason here, i've never seen him display any confidence in his ability to fit the ball into the tight spaces that top NFL QBs have to. . . IMO he's a dink and dunk, check down, throw it away type of passer who doesn't have the confidence in his own arm to challenge NFL defensive backs or consistently make all the throws that you need to at this level. . . that type of QB is okay if you have a top five defense, but unfortunately we don't. . .

i'd love to have orton prove me wrong, but i'm sure not going to hold my breath. . . .

Yes, I've noted Orton's YPC figures. I also have taken into consideration how
good/bad his receivers are at YPC. Of course, Heston is almost without peer
at broken-field running, but you have to have separation to begin your YPC,
and Heston seldom had separation enough. In short, Orton was working with
a sub par receiving corps.

I also have noted the YPC figures over the years of a certain future HOFer.
That would be Tom Brady. Here they are:

2001 6.9
2002 6.3
2003 6.9
2004 7.8
2005 7.8
2006 6.8
2997 8.3

Of course, 2007 saw the arrival of Moss and Welker, so you see the difference
there. Nonetheless, Cutler, for instance, averaged 7.4 YPC over his three
years, not once dipping below 7.3. Yet I don't believe for a minute that Cutler
is a better QB than Brady.

I might note that Orton's average YPC during the first seven (healthy) games
last year was 7.3.

I will be more interested in how Orton does this year with his new supporting
cast, especially if Marshall comes back at full speed.

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topscribe
09-10-2009, 04:01 PM
YOU are the one that brought up the other QBs, top. You can't make an absurd reference and expect people to simply let it go because YOU dont' want to be called on it.

I only brought up Plummer for ONE reason, and that is because you have a tendency (a pattern) to believe the QBs we bring in have stronger arms than most around the NFL do. Plummer was known for not having a strong arm, yet you defended and defended by using an example of some college long throw you swore you saw (undocumented btw ;) ). Now you are stating that Orton (who is known for not having a strong arm) has a stronger arm than people believe because of some deep throw in a QB challenge.

Its become somewhat of a pattern. The same type of passes somehow prove that these QBs have strong arms. Perhaps if you just had more than these silly QB challenges.

You made it read, in your post, that your points were 'fact' instead of opinion by bringing up the 'stats' of this QB challenge and the names of some other NFL quarterbacks.

Some of us aren't buying into these as facts.

I believe I explained my position quite well.

I'm not interested in a pissing contest, Rav. Piss somewhere else. :coffee:

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dogfish
09-10-2009, 04:05 PM
and more to the point, what does it matter how far he can throw it with a running start, no line of scrimmage or any defenders pressuring him? tell me when he's ever going to encounter THAT situation during a game? what we're talking about is functional strength as it applies to game situations, just as scouts differentiate between weight room strength and functional football strength when grading prospects. . . after all, it doesn't matter if a defensive lineman can do a million bench press reps or squats in a t-shirt and shorts if he doesn't have the knee bend and power base to hold the point of attack when a pair of OLs are trying to blow him off the LOS. . .

and how far orton can throw it in a t-shirt has very little relevance to how much zip he puts on a slant or comeback when his feet aren't set and there's a BD bearing down on the receiver. . . .

topscribe
09-10-2009, 04:11 PM
and more to the point, what does it matter how far he can throw it with a running start, no line of scrimmage or any defenders pressuring him? tell me when he's ever going to encounter THAT situation during a game? what we're talking about is functional strength as it applies to game situations, just as scouts differentiate between weight room strength and functional football strength when grading prospects. . . after all, it doesn't matter if a defensive lineman can do a million bench press reps or squats in a t-shirt and shorts if he doesn't have the knee bend and power base to hold the point of attack when a pair of OLs are trying to blow him off the LOS. . .

and how far orton can throw it in a t-shirt has very little relevance to how much zip he puts on a slant or comeback when his feet aren't set and there's a BD bearing down on the receiver. . . .

My point involved Orton vs. Simms. I don't know why that is so hard to
understand. Moreover, I am the only one to provide any documentation here.
I believe the issue of this thread has been derailed, so I really don't see what
further business I have in here.

I'm outta here. Have fun, kiddies . . . :wave:

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NameUsedBefore
09-10-2009, 04:36 PM
Comparing the arms of Favre and Manning to Orton? Oivey...

Ravage!!!
09-10-2009, 04:37 PM
documentation of what?

I can provide article after article of writers saying that Orton's arm isn't a strong NFL arm. Is that documentation enough?

Requiem / The Dagda
09-10-2009, 04:38 PM
. . . or that of college scouts and heads of player personnel departments. . . I guess they aren't enough, Rav. :(

NameUsedBefore
09-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Orton has decent velocity in the short range game, but then again, who doesn't? Anything beyond that and his passes start floating. A lot of people can throw a ball a long ways; the question is can they do it on a rope? The answer for Orton is a resounding no.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Orton couldn't throw a tootsie pop the length of two sidewalks.

tumbana
09-10-2009, 04:43 PM
Orton couldn't throw a tootsie pop the length of two sidewalks.

I agree.

TXBRONC
09-11-2009, 09:22 AM
and more to the point, what does it matter how far he can throw it with a running start, no line of scrimmage or any defenders pressuring him? tell me when he's ever going to encounter THAT situation during a game? what we're talking about is functional strength as it applies to game situations, just as scouts differentiate between weight room strength and functional football strength when grading prospects. . . after all, it doesn't matter if a defensive lineman can do a million bench press reps or squats in a t-shirt and shorts if he doesn't have the knee bend and power base to hold the point of attack when a pair of OLs are trying to blow him off the LOS. . .

and how far orton can throw it in a t-shirt has very little relevance to how much zip he puts on a slant or comeback when his feet aren't set and there's a BD bearing down on the receiver. . . .

This why I like Simms' arm better than Orton's. The way it looks to me is that Simms throws with more velocity than Orton. Like you said it's no big deal that Orton can throw the ball 75 yards down field with no pressure in his face. I have little doubt that Simms could throw the ball just far under the same set of circumstances.

That being said, I don't think either one of them is a long term solution but only time will tell.

TXBRONC
09-11-2009, 09:28 AM
Orton has decent velocity in the short range game, but then again, who doesn't? Anything beyond that and his passes start floating. A lot of people can throw a ball a long ways; the question is can they do it on a rope? The answer for Orton is a resounding no.

He's does ok when he gets his feet set properly and follow through is good. But even when he does those things well his velocity isn't great.