Deep Thoughts by Northman

[Northman]

Ok, not really that deep but...


I had thought of this when we first starting getting in the running in the Peyton Manning sweepstakes and over the course of the last year or so. When i look at the Broncos right now i do see a team that can compete but my question is are we really BUILT to win a championship?

The last time Denver was in a SB it was littered with more vets than youngsters not vice versa. While we do have some vet leadership at certain positions the reality is most of our guys are very green so while Elway got Manning to make a run for a title are we really built to actually get one? At least at this stage? The window with Manning is very small so even now i was very surprised he came here. John must of had one hell of a pitch but im really wondering if we are built to go the distance.

Thoughts? Flamage? Dont give a flying monkey that came out of MO's ass?

[topscribe]

I would love to flame you, Anubis. But I'll save that for a better opportunity. :D

But I would like for the Broncos to learn from the Colts' discipline. As the
commentators said, they don't beat themselves. And they showed that last
night. The team that beat the Broncos last night was . . . well, the Broncos.
.

[DenBronx]

Are we built to win a championship?

Yes

But depends on how bad we want it, if we can stay healthy and how good we will execute down the stretch.


Some teams win with a roster full of vets, others win with a roster thats balanced of good draft stacked upon good draft. We are not that old of a team really other than a few key veterans. Manning is the exception to the rule. He is like Roger Clemens, who still played at a high level even in his later years. Elway won back to back SBs in his late 30's. Also, Manning is playing better than any QB in history through the first 7 games. So I like our chances.

One loss isn't any reason to doubt this team right now and I would say yes we are built to win.

[DenBronx]

I would love to flame you, Anubis. But I'll save that for a better opportunity. :D

But I would like for the Broncos to learn from the Colts' discipline. As the
commentators said, they don't beat themselves. And they showed that last
night. The team that beat the Broncos last night was . . . well, the Broncos.
.

Ehhh I'm not sold on the Colts right now and won't crown them at all. They beat us, every dog has it's day and that was their day. 7 out of 10 times we meet them we would win.

They lose in Denver and that's fact.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think we're more than able to compete for a Championship. Built for it, even. Manning has never had all the weapons he does now. Not taking anything from Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Stokely, etc but I think our WRs are just better.

Our #1 problem right now us injuries. Not one snap this season have all of our starters from camp played together. First it was Champ, Walton, Koppen, and Von. Then Clady. Then Ayers and Woodyard. Now Franklin. Try telling any other QB out there to go play a very good team without your 2 starting tackles. Or better yet, your backup LT and a Guard playing RT. There's a reason we couldn't run the ball or pass protect on the edges last night.

Most of all, I think everyone's expectations are just too damned high. We've gotten spoiled as a fan base and come to expect perfection from this team every week. So much so that we bitch about a 35-19 blowout as if it is disgraceful. Do the Colts still beat us if all of our starters are healthy? I doubt it.

My question is, if we're not a Championship caliber team, then who is? KC? When their defense does have a bad game and they get down by 2 scores (it will happen at some point), who's gonna bring them back when they have to throw to catch up? Alex Smith? :lol:

Sure, their defense looks great, but it's not like they are dominant. Shit, the last two games they won were vs backup QBs, one of whom was a 3rd stringer who'd never played an NFL snap - and they won by ONE POINT.

I think we're getting a little ridiculous with the fretting about this team. We haven't scored under 33 points in a game and we're a walking MASH unit. Regardless of the current record, we are the best team in the league right now, IMO and we're going to roll the Chiefs when we play them. We had a bad game last night. We will be the Chiefs' bad game in a few weeks.

[Buff]

Defense wins championships. We've got a lot of work to do.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Defense wins championships. We've got a lot of work to do.

That's a myth. Maybe it was true back in the 70s, maybe the 80s, but as long as the offense/STs doesn't give up 3 turnovers (2 inside our own 20 and one in a goal to go situation) and a Safety along with 6 3 and outs in a row, the defense will be fine.

Tell the Steelers that defense wins Championships as Aaron Rodgers throws for 3 TDs and 300+ yards on them. The game is built to favor the offense nowadays.

Nobody could've foreseen at the start of camp that by week 7, that we'd have been this banged up on both sides of the ball. Injuries happen, but not having them at key positions helps your chances tremendously.

The Chiefs have had all their starters except Flowers for every game (he missed one game). Tell me their defense would be anywhere near as good if Houston was suspended and Hali, Johnson, and Flowers were all hurt or nursing nagging injuries. That's pretty much where we've been without Von, Ayers, Woodyard, and Champ.

[BroncoWave]

Defense wins championships. We've got a lot of work to do.

Not really. In the past 20 or so years, Super Bowl winners have a higher average offensive rank than defensive rank. Teams with shitty defenses like the Saints and Packers have won recent Super Bowls. You don't need a great defense to win a title.

[Buff]

That's a myth. Maybe it was true back in the 70s, maybe the 80s, but as long as the offense/STs doesn't give up 3 turnovers (2 inside our own 20 and one in a goal to go situation) and a Safety along with 6 3 and outs in a row, the defense will be fine.

Tell the Steelers that defense wins Championships as Aaron Rodgers throws for 3 TDs and 300+ yards on them. The game is built to favor the offense nowadays.

Nobody could've foreseen at the start of camp that by week 7, that we'd have been this banged up on both sides of the ball. Injuries happen, but not having them at key positions helps your chances tremendously.

The Chiefs have had all their starters except Flowers for every game (he missed one game). Tell me their defense would be anywhere near as good if Houston was suspended and Hali, Johnson, and Flowers were all hurt or nursing nagging injuries. That's pretty much where we've been without Von, Ayers, Woodyard, and Champ.

I guess it depends on how literally you're interpreting that... Sure, we all know franchise QBs actually win championships... But I think our game against the Ravens was a perfect example last year - the field gets leveled in the playoffs and being able to run the ball and play defense become more important. It's a cliche, but it still holds true.

[BroncoWave]

I guess it depends on how literally you're interpreting that... Sure, we all know franchise QBs actually win championships... But I think our game against the Ravens was a perfect example last year - the field gets leveled in the playoffs and being able to run the ball and play defense become more important. It's a cliche, but it still holds true.

Eh, I still see that Ravens game as a giant fluke. We were a better team than them and one gaffe by Moore unraveled all of it. If you replay that game 10 times, I think we win 7 of them. I'd rather take my chances with a great passing game than a great RB or defense. Look at the last 10 super bowl champs. A lot of mediocre running games and defense on that list. Not so many mediocre QBs.

[DenBronx]

Not really. In the past 20 or so years, Super Bowl winners have a higher average offensive rank than defensive rank. Teams with shitty defenses like the Saints and Packers have won recent Super Bowls. You don't need a great defense to win a title.


True but I think Buffs point is it will deffinitely help. I don't want to see shootouts every week and would rather see us deal some more blowouts.

We were 6-0 before Miller. Insert Miller and we are 6-1. So even adding some of the elite defensive players in the league isn't going to win you games. Execution on both sides of the ball wins you games.


Really....I would be more concerned with our OL than anything. We lost 3 of our starters, LT, C and RT. That's huge! At least we should get Franklin and Woody back soon.

[MOtorboat]

Yes. I think this team is a championship team.

[BroncoWave]

I know this is a hard point to argue after giving up 39 points, but I don't think our defense was the problem at all last night. Our offense and special teams were putting them in horrible positions all night. They probably had an average starting field position around the 40 or 50. It's hard to stop teams when they are starting around midfield every drive.

[BroncoWave]

Yes. I think this team is a championship team.

I think almost any team that makes the playoffs in a given year is a championship caliber team. There is almost an indistinguishable difference in talent between NFL teams, especially when you limit it to playoff teams. It's not like the MLB or NBA where you know which 5 or so teams will be contending year in and year out. Several NFL teams are good enough to win the title, and we are certainly one of them.

[slim]

The defense played OK. I still think Woody is the heart and soul of the D, though. Once he gets back, the defense will be substantially better.

[MOtorboat]

I think almost any team that makes the playoffs in a given year is a championship caliber team. There is almost an indistinguishable difference in talent between NFL teams, especially when you limit it to playoff teams. It's not like the MLB or NBA where you know which 5 or so teams will be contending year in and year out. Several NFL teams are good enough to win the title, and we are certainly one of them.

Just to compare the 2011 team to the 2012 team, where both made the playoffs.

The 2011 team was not a championship team. The 2012 team was a championship team.

The 2013 team, likewise, is also a championship team.

[BroncoWave]

Just to compare the 2011 team to the 2012 team, where both made the playoffs.

The 2011 team was not a championship team. The 2012 team was a championship team.

The 2013 team, likewise, is also a championship team.

Yeah, not every playoff team is championship caliber. Our 2011 squad being an example. But for the most part, I would say at least 10 of the 12 playoff teams every season have a legitimate shot to win the title. You just never know in a single elimination tournament.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

That's a myth. Maybe it was true back in the 70s, maybe the 80s, but as long as the offense/STs doesn't give up 3 turnovers (2 inside our own 20 and one in a goal to go situation) and a Safety along with 6 3 and outs in a row, the defense will be fine.

Tell the Steelers that defense wins Championships as Aaron Rodgers throws for 3 TDs and 300+ yards on them. The game is built to favor the offense nowadays.

Nobody could've foreseen at the start of camp that by week 7, that we'd have been this banged up on both sides of the ball. Injuries happen, but not having them at key positions helps your chances tremendously.

The Chiefs have had all their starters except Flowers for every game (he missed one game). Tell me their defense would be anywhere near as good if Houston was suspended and Hali, Johnson, and Flowers were all hurt or nursing nagging injuries. That's pretty much where we've been without Von, Ayers, Woodyard, and Champ.

I guess it depends on how literally you're interpreting that... Sure, we all know franchise QBs actually win championships... But I think our game against the Ravens was a perfect example last year - the field gets leveled in the playoffs and being able to run the ball and play defense become more important. It's a cliche, but it still holds true.

I completely agree that having a strong defense is important. I just think that you really can't judge our defense at face value right now nor can you say that having a great defense wins Championships.

SF and Baltimore both had great defenses, yet both scored over 30 points in what turned out to be a shoot out in the Super Bowl. SF had the superior defense to Baltimore, whose defense was actually pretty average last year. Yet, Baltimore threw the ball all over the yard and built a huge lead. The 49ers then started throwing the ball all over the yard and almost came back to win. All the while, the defenses looked almost helpless.

[ShaneFalco]

They passed up the greatest show on turf in pts the year they won the SB. Yes they should be able to win the big one, and anything else is a bust.

[MHCBill]

I would love to flame you, Anubis. But I'll save that for a better opportunity. :D

But I would like for the Broncos to learn from the Colts' discipline. As the
commentators said, they don't beat themselves. And they showed that last
night. The team that beat the Broncos last night was . . . well, the Broncos.
.Teams lose games more than they win them. Denver lost the game, Indy didn't win it.

[Ziggy]

The defense will be fine. We were 3rd in the NFL in points allowed last season. We replaced Doom with Philips, which is close enough to a wash for me. We added DRC, Kayvon, and Pot Roast. All nice additions. It's been injuries and suspensions that have killed us. By the time the playoffs come around, this D will be solid. Add that to the best offense in the NFL and what you have is a team that's built to win a championship.

[TimHippo]

The main concern is the running game. A pass first high scoring offense will score quickly but not give the defense time to rest. You can win by outscoring the other team but you need to have a power running game that can be counted on to get the tough yards and eat up clock without fumbling when called upon and in certain situations. You might as well bring Tebow back for short yardage situations if you are going to give the ball to Hillman. McGahee could play that consistent power running game but was let go.

Losing Clady doesn't help but right now you have two pass catching running backs (in Knowshown and Hillman) who aren't capable of handling the ball 25-30 carriers a game and are inconsistent in short yardage situations. And Montee Ball seems like a bust like most of the Wisconsin running backs who dominate college but then are mediocre in the NFL.

[Ziggy]

You're dubbing Ball a bust 7 games into his rookie year? Wow.

[BroncoWave]

You're dubbing Ball a bust 7 games into his rookie year? Wow.

It's nothing new on this board. DT, Ayers, Moreno, Moore, and others were all deemed busts by some on this board pretty early in their careers. Part of the instant gratification culture of today I guess.

[TimHippo]

You're dubbing Ball a bust 7 games into his rookie year? Wow.

Yes. If he were any good, considering we need a power running back, he would be contributing. Running back you can usually tell right away if they are going to do anything in the league or not. They aren't guys you just sit for a couple years and then they suddenly explode like with QBs or even wide receivers. Look at Alfred Morris, they plugged in the unheralded guy his rookie year and he starts to dominate right away. Montee Ball 7 games and not much to show for it given multiple opportunities.

Wisconsin running backs have a very poor track record in the NFL compared to their production and dominance in the NCAAs.

[silkamilkamonico]

Way to early to call Ball a bust. He does certainly look like a dime a doze though. I don't see anything special of him when he runs, but I'm also one that thinks RB's are only as good as their oline with an exception of a handful. Really wish we could have had Lacy but whatever.


I'm honestly not sure why people are questioning the way this team is built. You can't question the offense on it being capable to win. and if you did that's just stupid. The defense is really struggling, but it has stretches where they are capable. I don't think it's being said enough on just how much they are missing Woodyard. I'm not even that worried about losing Bailey, because when everything else is equal, DRC, Harris, and Webster is a pretty formidable tandem of CB's. IMO there is way too much being asked right now of guys like Trevathan, and our Safetys, and that's because Woodyard is out and Von isn't up to speed yet obviously. It still might take a few weeks, but I'm still hopeful the defense comes together when people start getting healthy (hopefully).

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't believe we need a powerback. Our offensive system doesn't call for one and Knowshon has been proving a very capable runner even when teams know it's coming. He couldn't run against Indianapolis, but neither could Adrian Peterson with the $hit Show our oline put on yesterday.

[aberdien]

Honestly, and here's a cliche answer, my biggest concern is Peyton. We all know his perceived frailty in big playoff games and how he is apparently not so good in cold weather games. And there's all of the hooplah about the SB being played in NJ this year. That could be troublesome. My concern is with Peyton because it's obvious that without him we're above average at best, so if he doesn't play great I dunno about our chances.

I mean I still think we're favorites and I will be surprised and disappointed if we don't make the SB, but I am worried that Peyton will confirm the perception that he sucks in cold weather in the post season. That's honestly the biggest doubt in my mind, because I feel like most everything else that is a problem can be fixed.

[Ziggy]

Yes. If he were any good, considering we need a power running back, he would be contributing. Running back you can usually tell right away if they are going to do anything in the league or not. They aren't guys you just sit for a couple years and then they suddenly explode like with QBs or even wide receivers. Look at Alfred Morris, they plugged in the unheralded guy his rookie year and he starts to dominate right away. Montee Ball 7 games and not much to show for it given multiple opportunities.

Wisconsin running backs have a very poor track record in the NFL compared to their production and dominance in the NCAAs.

Hall of Famer Floyd Little says hello.

[NightTerror218]

Last season we were 2nd ranked defense. We are capable of that again.

[Northman]

I would love to flame you, Anubis. But I'll save that for a better opportunity. :D

But I would like for the Broncos to learn from the Colts' discipline. As the
commentators said, they don't beat themselves. And they showed that last
night. The team that beat the Broncos last night was . . . well, the Broncos.
.


I agree with all this but it kind of gets to what im talking about. The mentality just isnt there with most of the players from what i see. I dont think they truly realize (which is shocking considering what happened last year in the playoffs) that every game counts and you have to be focused week in and week out. I just dont know if most of the guys surrounding Manning have the mental fortitude to push themselves farther. While i do understand there are some injuries you just cant rely on that excuse, you have to be able to adjust and this goes from the HC all the way down to the guy backing up someone on the bench. While Denver beat themselves last night, they did it because i just dont see the urgency there.

[Lancane]

I'm not sure that they are to be quite honest. I believe that the front office believes they are, but over the last three weeks the blueprint on how to beat the Broncos has been created with our games against Dallas, Jacksonville and Indianapolis. Outscore them, don't be afraid to cover their receivers like a blanket even at the cost of a penalty, go for turnovers and try and stay at the same tempo as them.

Fundamentally and Mentally the defense is nowhere near ready to compete against the more high powered offenses, when the middle to lower offenses are near enough to near beat you or beat you, well then there is a problem. Between the stagnation and fundamental flaws of the defense and the piss poor job of the offensive line? Granted that this wasn't the case at the beginning of the season, but it is the case now.

Denver needs to re-infuse some oomph on the offensive front to protect Manning, Del Rio needs to do better at his defensive play calling as well as making adjustments and the whole defense needs to grow some balls and quit playing 'patty-cake', they need to be more aggressive like they were last year. Play the ball not the receivers, fight to cause turnovers even if you draw a penalty, make the receivers and ball carriers sorry for having or going for the ball in the first place and do whatever it takes to put the quarterback on his back or to feel the pressure - they don't need to be elite, they can be a true 'bend don't break' defense, but aggressiveness is the key to success as that type of defense and we should know, that is the type of defenses we had when we won two championships and were continuous contenders in the AFCW.

[Lancane]

I agree with all this but it kind of gets to what im talking about. The mentality just isnt there with most of the players from what i see. I dont think they truly realize (which is shocking considering what happened last year in the playoffs) that every game counts and you have to be focused week in and week out. I just dont know if most of the guys surrounding Manning have the mental fortitude to push themselves farther. While i do understand there are some injuries you just cant rely on that excuse, you have to be able to adjust and this goes from the HC all the way down to the guy backing up someone on the bench. While Denver beat themselves last night, they did it because i just dont see the urgency there.

Only a handful seem to have that hunger as well as the will and drive to go for it all.

[TXBRONC]

Defense wins championships. We've got a lot of work to do.

Colts won the Super Bowl with the 32nd rank defense in the League in 2007.

That said Denver's run defense is for real and not having Woodyard on the field hurting the defense in pass coverage as bad if not worse in some respects than not having Von.

[Dzone]

we wont know until november when we go at chargers chiefs at patriots at chiefs...that is going to be 4 tough games in a row...the rest of the season is a cake walk after that

[silkamilkamonico]

I agree with all this but it kind of gets to what im talking about. The mentality just isnt there with most of the players from what i see. I dont think they truly realize (which is shocking considering what happened last year in the playoffs) that every game counts and you have to be focused week in and week out. I just dont know if most of the guys surrounding Manning have the mental fortitude to push themselves farther. While i do understand there are some injuries you just cant rely on that excuse, you have to be able to adjust and this goes from the HC all the way down to the guy backing up someone on the bench. While Denver beat themselves last night, they did it because i just dont see the urgency there.

I respectfully disagree. This is a veteran team that has been there before and knows that, especially after last year, nothing it will do during the regular season will be good enough. They are already well playing their way to get where they need to, the playoffs. Does every game count for this team? It didn't last year. All it heard during the offseason was how much of a disappointment last season was, and only because of basically 1 play in the postseason.

I understand in a sentiment of what your saying, especially after watching last nights debacle between 2 winless teams (who not playing with a sense of urgency when your winless and your pride is broken was clearly evident), but I don't get that with a team like Denver. We weren't going into the playoffs undefeated (and if we were that would have been the kiss of death, IMO), and we went on the road against a very young and talented team who heard all week about how their organization traded away the second coming and he was going to come back and rip them a new one.

We limped into Indy and played a young and capable team who played with a hell of a lot of inspiration in a game they needed to win much more than we did, we had basically every glaring weakness come to the forefront that our team has, and we still almost pulled the game out. Yea it sucked losing, Denver was undisciplined, did not play well in an explosive environment and it was disappointing, but in my opinion it didn't show a lack of hunger or sense of urgency. Denver got their ass kicked along the oline, and it showed throughout the course of the game.

[silkamilkamonico]

we wont know until november when we go at chargers chiefs at patriots at chiefs...that is going to be 4 tough games in a row...the rest of the season is a cake walk after that


I think the whole season is mediocre. KC is playing inspirational, they are a young team with a bunch of perennial losers who are undefeated, overachieving, and haven't been here before. Their best win is also a 1 point home victory against ho hum Dallas, the only team they've played with a winning record.

I still can't take San Diego seriously.

We might drop another game or 2, but big deal.

[aberdien]

The Chiefs offense is not frightening at all, the only worry in the games vs KC is dealing with their defense. They can get after PFM.

[Northman]

The Chiefs offense is not frightening at all, the only worry in the games vs KC is dealing with their defense. They can get after PFM.

Just like Indy did.

I think some people unfortunately try to say Denver shot themselves in the foot, and yes to a degree they did. But you cant take away anything the Colts did just like you cant totally take away what Tre did vs Dallas and a lot more people were giving him credit rather than believing that Romo has been plagued by late game decision making. Either way, if there is a defense that can make Manning uncomfortable it really leaves us in a bind which is why our own defense really needs to step up more.

[nevcraw]

the bottom line for me is that this team has not proven yet it can win when Peyton has a bad game. Now I think that can change but right now this team needs Peyton to be good or great to win games. Any team with a stud defense that can rattle Peyton and and O that can get the ball down the field has a decent shot at winning.

[Lancane]

The Chiefs offense is not frightening at all, the only worry in the games vs KC is dealing with their defense. They can get after PFM.

When the 32nd offense nearly beats you then the 19th overall offense can give you a run for your money, by the way the Colts had I believe the 16th overall offense and did beat us. Throw in a tenacious and aggressive defense known for it's pass rush - yeah, we are not ready to face the Chiefs as is. The offensive line needs to prove leaps and bounds before we face Kansas City, Tennessee and Houston all three which are Top 10 defenses. As for our defense, Washington will be a huge test for our defense, since they have the 4th overall offense.

[GEM]

I know this is a hard point to argue after giving up 39 points, but I don't think our defense was the problem at all last night. Our offense and special teams were putting them in horrible positions all night. They probably had an average starting field position around the 40 or 50. It's hard to stop teams when they are starting around midfield every drive.

What the **** was up with Colquitt Sunday night? And Holliday? They both chose that night to shit the bed. :mad: