Should We Trade Next Year's First For...?

[OrangeHoof]

After the 6-0 start, I presume everyone is "all in" on reaching the Super Bowl this year and we need to think that we have a narrow window of opportunity with Manning. In consideration of that, maybe we should trade next year's first-rounder to fill a hole on this year's squad.

Injuries have hurt us on the offensive line and the linebacking corps. There are some good teams that are finding themselves surprisingly on the outside this year (Falcons, Texans, Vikings, Giants) who might be willing to send a good player for a pick next year. Obviously, we'd only be giving up a spot in the low-20s to high-30s so it isn't like we are trading away a Top 10 draft pick.

Who would you go after or do you think it's a bad idea? Think quickly. The trade deadline normally comes around Halloween.

[Traveler]

Never mortgage the future unless it's for an established can't miss "younger" veteran player. Who that is at this point would be my question.

[weazel]

After the 6-0 start, I presume everyone is "all in" on reaching the Super Bowl this year and we need to think that we have a narrow window of opportunity with Manning. In consideration of that, maybe we should trade next year's first-rounder to fill a hole on this year's squad.

Injuries have hurt us on the offensive line and the linebacking corps. There are some good teams that are finding themselves surprisingly on the outside this year (Falcons, Texans, Vikings, Giants) who might be willing to send a good player for a pick next year. Obviously, we'd only be giving up a spot in the low-20s to high-30s so it isn't like we are trading away a Top 10 draft pick.

Who would you go after or do you think it's a bad idea? Think quickly. The trade deadline normally comes around Halloween.

uh oh, I wouldn't go this route. I said something like this in the gameday thread and was called stupid, idiot, a moron... because apparently an NFL organization with a team of scouts can't find a single player on another team that would be an upgrade over Chris Clarke. There is not one single OT sitting anywhere on any roster that would be an upgrade without having to trade away Clady... or so I'm told.

[SR]

If this team was in dire straits and needed someone NOW, I'd say try to work a deal. However, that isn't the case.

[broken12]

Not first rnd but jarious byrd fs buffalo would help

[SR]

Not first rnd but jarious byrd fs buffalo would help

Yeah...an injury prone DB who will want as much money as Champ is EXACTLY what the team needs.

[Northman]

JJ Watt.

[OrangeHoof]

I presume we would be getting a veteran nearing the end of their contract who can help us this year and, if not in our future, can be shopped in the off-season or let go as a free agent. Maybe a 1st would be too great a sacrifice but possible a second.

I think part of the timidity with the play-calling last night was uncertainty over how long the o-line could hold out Indy's pass rush and they certainly aren't the league's best pass rush. I think we need to upgrade the OT position unless you want to see dump offs in the flat all day.

[OrangeHoof]

JJ Watt.

That would probably take two 1sts, a second, D. Thomas and a lot of money.

[Lancane]

Actually, I've been wondering this for the last couple weeks. Denver's pass protection has become suspect with the current offensive front and last night against Indianapolis it was exposed even further - take away some of that pressure and the Broncos likely win. For the past two weeks teams one above average and the other far below have generated a solid pass rush against the Broncos, and I believe the team has been too complacent in many areas this season already, and this is one of them. Will Beatty (New York Giants), Matt Kalil (Minnesota), Duane Brown (Houston) and Joe Thomas (Cleveland) are all viable options to trade for upgrade the offensive front. Chris Clark is not horrid, but he is subpar for the standard that Denver needs to really compete. When Jacksonville can give you issues, what will they do when they are scheduled to play four top 10 defenses in the weeks to come? Add in that Denver's defense is struggling, yeah they improved a little but Denver will face three other top 10 offenses this season and last night the 14th best beat the Broncos, while struggling to wrangle in even the more mundane offenses at times. Denver doesn't have the ability to make too many changes, and personally I believe they have to make a change - as they are right now we'll be lucky to win a wildcard game despite the scoring ability of the offense.

If it was me in Elway's shoes I'd be making the decision to fix as much as I could in light of the variable problems the team faces which at this point is quite a bit, Denver could be looking at severe punishment come the end of the season due to the legal troubles of a few players and front office personnel. We're better set offensively this season to make a run then we were last year but the overall defense is struggling while the offensive line is the weakest it's been at anytime under the new regime. I would be trading for one of the aforementioned left tackles to solidify the line, I would force Bailey to restructure his contract and move him to the nickel spot - if he refused I would cut him from the roster and bring someone up or sign someone for depth while giving an extension to DRC who has been one of the few surprises this season. I know people will say it's not that bad - but point in fact, Bailey had (zero) defended passes against the Colts, he at least had three against Jacksonville. The formula on how to beat the Broncos is out and about right now, the team needs to refocus and fix what can be fixed or this will be an A-typical run much like what we went through during the Shanahan years, win enough to be in the playoffs but in the end go nowhere.

[GEM]

Actually, I've been wondering this for the last couple weeks. Denver's pass protection has become suspect with the current offensive front and last night against Indianapolis it was exposed even further - take away some of that pressure and the Broncos likely win. For the past two weeks teams one above average and the other far below have generated a solid pass rush against the Broncos, and I believe the team has been too complacent in many areas this season already, and this is one of them. Will Beatty (New York Giants), Matt Kalil (Minnesota), Duane Brown (Houston) and Joe Thomas (Cleveland) are all viable options to trade for upgrade the offensive front. Chris Clark is not horrid, but he is subpar for the standard that Denver needs to really compete. When Jacksonville can give you issues, what will they do when they are scheduled to play four top 10 defenses in the weeks to come? Add in that Denver's defense is struggling, yeah they improved a little but Denver will face three other top 10 offenses this season and last night the 14th best beat the Broncos, while struggling to wrangle in even the more mundane offenses at times. Denver doesn't have the ability to make too many changes, and personally I believe they have to make a change - as they are right now we'll be lucky to win a wildcard game despite the scoring ability of the offense.

If it was me in Elway's shoes I'd be making the decision to fix as much as I could in light of the variable problems the team faces which at this point is quite a bit, Denver could be looking at severe punishment come the end of the season due to the legal troubles of a few players and front office personnel. We're better set offensively this season to make a run then we were last year but the overall defense is struggling while the offensive line is the weakest it's been at anytime under the new regime. I would be trading for one of the aforementioned left tackles to solidify the line, I would force Bailey to restructure his contract and move him to the nickel spot - if he refused I would cut him from the roster and bring someone up or sign someone for depth while giving an extension to DRC who has been one of the few surprises this season. I know people will say it's not that bad - but point in fact, Bailey had (zero) defended passes against the Colts, he at least had three against Jacksonville. The formula on how to beat the Broncos is out and about right now, the team needs to refocus and fix what can be fixed or this will be an A-typical run much like what we went through during the Shanahan years, win enough to be in the playoffs but in the end go nowhere.

Whoa buddy!!! I was wondering why the season had started and you hadn't come back around. :) Nice to see ya!

[Northman]

Definitely, always good to see a Lancane sighting. \m/

[Lancane]

Whoa buddy!!! I was wondering why the season had started and you hadn't come back around. :) Nice to see ya!

Nice to be back, been busy as hell and not much time to jump on... ;)

[Lancane]

Definitely, always good to see a Lancane sighting. \m/

You know how it is, Bigfoot and I got this deal going on...when he is spotted I disappear till the sightings of him are debunked and then I show back up! LMAO.

[broken12]

Seymore would help the interior line

[Lancane]

Seymore would help the interior line

Problem is that Seymour believes he is worth top dollar and so Denver will likely pass. I agree he'd be a welcome addition in the rotation, especially on passing downs but not worth the money he is demanding. I'd rather see Denver trade a first round pick for a left tackle then to break the bank on someone who will do only so much and demand even more.

[CrazyHorse]

I say yes but only if we get someone that can start at tackle or possibly on the defensive line. Trades are pretty rare so I don't think it will happen. We could have had Eugene Monroe.

[Lancane]

I say yes but only if we get someone that can start at tackle or possibly on the defensive line. Trades are pretty rare so I don't think it will happen. We could have had Eugene Monroe.

Defensive line? While I admit that Seymour could help in rotation, the woes of the defense are far in away not the fault of the line which is the reason we are number one against the run and they are able to get pressure on the quarterback when the rest of the defense does their jobs. No, problem regarding the defense is the two-bit coverage we are seeing out of the secondary, they are playing so far off the receivers that separation is really not a problem like it is for our own receivers. It's like they are terrified that they'll draw a penalty flag or actually have to work. Rahim Moore started out strong again, but look how he has held himself back from laying monster hits on receivers, and that is but one example. Bailey looked lost as a starter, he couldn't even get his hands up to defend a pass once last night. The secondary needs to be passionate about their jobs and quit worrying about job security.

[broken12]

Justin tuck, last yr contract give up little for him

[ShaneFalco]

Not first rnd but jarious byrd fs buffalo would help

YES! Jairus deserves a team like the Broncos. I know he wants out of Buffalo bad.

Played on same team in HS. :) He is a cool guy.

[tripp]

Problem is that Seymour believes he is worth top dollar and so Denver will likely pass. I agree he'd be a welcome addition in the rotation, especially on passing downs but not worth the money he is demanding. I'd rather see Denver trade a first round pick for a left tackle then to break the bank on someone who will do only so much and demand even more.

I'm not so sure he thinks he is worth top dollar after being out of football for almost half a season. I think he'd take less dollar on a contract to go on a team like ours that is a legitimate SB contender.

With that being said.. is Sylvester Williams anything that we thought he would be? I haven't heard much talk about him if any at all.

[TimHippo]

Matt Kalil (Minnesota), Duane Brown (Houston) and Joe Thomas (Cleveland) are all viable options to trade for upgrade the offensive front. Chris Clark is not horrid, but he is subpar for the standard that Denver needs to really compete. .

Matt Kalil. LOL. A low #1 pick, or even two #1's would not get you Matt Kalil.

[Dapper Dan]

I think we could trade a 5th rounder for Eli Manning so we can start him in January/February.

[WARHORSE]

Adrian Peterson for our first anyday.

Maybe AP for Von since he has that one year suspension over his head........................grr.

[Lancane]

Matt Kalil. LOL. A low #1 pick, or even two #1's would not get you Matt Kalil.

Most of those teams I mentioned are getting ready to start rebuilding off-seasons, that is the reason I mentioned those tackles and you'd be surprised what a team is willing to part with on the brink of having to rebuild. I doubt Denver can actually get Kalil, but his name is worth mentioning in the discussion.

[Lancane]

Adrian Peterson for our first anyday.

Maybe AP for Von since he has that one year suspension over his head........................grr.

Denver will not give up their best defensive prospect in over two decades because simple technicalities, and we have far bigger issues then our ground game. And the chances of Miller being suspended for a year are slight, the league could be looking at what some would consider double jeopardy which could lead credence to a major suit not only by Miller, but the Broncos as well as the NFLPA.

[OrangeHoof]

Most of those teams I mentioned are getting ready to start rebuilding off-seasons, that is the reason I mentioned those tackles and you'd be surprised what a team is willing to part with on the brink of having to rebuild. I doubt Denver can actually get Kalil, but his name is worth mentioning in the discussion.

Likewise, I don't think the Texans are willing to give up Duane Brown but the Browns might be talked into giving up Joe Thomas. They've already cashed in Richardson for a low 1st next year.

[TXBRONC]

Not first rnd but jarious byrd fs buffalo would help

No he wouldn't.

[TXBRONC]

Likewise, I don't think the Texans are willing to give up Duane Brown but the Browns might be talked into giving up Joe Thomas. They've already cashed in Richardson for a low 1st next year.

Hoof that isn't realistic. Sending Richardson packing is one thing getting rid one the best left tackles in the game is quite another. Denver just gave a new contract to Clady how do they pay him and Thomas? I don't see either making that kind of a move.

[OrangeHoof]

First, every offensive line has TWO offensive tackles. Second, one can be used as trade bait after the season. You just have to figure how to stay under the cap for now. For all we know, Thomas may thank us on hands and knees for getting him out of Cleveland and would be willing to reshape his contract to stay or he might be grateful we moved him to an organization like, say, Green Bay which is in the same state where he played college ball.

Yes, it could take more than a first to do it but you never know.

The late Bum Phillips remembers talking to John McKay about the Oilers trading up to draft Earl Campbell. They discussed trading first round picks and then included a few players and they thought there was a framework for a deal but Bum thought he was paying way too small a price.

So, the day before the draft, McKay calls Phillips and tells him he wants more. Now he wants the Oilers to add reserve TE Jimmie Giles to the deal. "That's it?", asked Bum trying to muffle his enthusiasm. "Yeah", said McKay. "Well, I guess we can do that," Bum said and the deal was completed. And the rest was history.

Never presume what the other side wants in the deal before discussing terms. They may value a player you know you can do without. Be prepared they will ask for a lot but don't presume they will value your players the same way you do.

[Lancane]

Hoof that's Hoof that isn't realistic. Sending Richardson packing is one thing getting rid one the best left tackles in the game is quite another. Denver just gave a new contract to Clady how do they pay him and Thomas? I don't see either making that kind of a move.

TX, the Broncos wouldn't trade Cutler or Marshall either, remember? Did we forget about Eugene Monroe? All I am saying is that it's worth it for the Broncos to put out feelers to teams who may be willing to forget the need over the chance to add a pick to the likely rebuilding process they face.

[weazel]

Likewise, I don't think the Texans are willing to give up Duane Brown but the Browns might be talked into giving up Joe Thomas. They've already cashed in Richardson for a low 1st next year.

oh boy, Motorboat tore me a new one in the gameday thread for even mentioning this. According to him I am the stupidest person on the board for even thinking it. I was just throwing out a name but it got him going... Like I have said, lately there are way too many arrogant people on this board. Unless you're one of a few posters, you're going to get flamed for anything you say. It's a clique based board

[MOtorboat]

oh boy, Motorboat tore me a new one in the gameday thread for even mentioning this. According to him I am the stupidest person on the board for even thinking it. I was just throwing out a name but it got him going... Like I have said, lately there are way too many arrogant people on this board. Unless you're one of a few posters, you're going to get flamed for anything you say. It's a clique based board

It's pretty stupid no matter who suggests it. For a number of different reasons.

Just because I didn't see this one doesn't mean I don't think it's not stupid. Also it's not stupid because it wouldn't be awesome to have another team's starting tackle to plug in to the position for our injured tackle that's out for the season. It's stupid because this isn't Madden. Denver doesn't have the cap room, and those teams aren't just going to hand over a player at one of the four most important positions on the field.

Think about it. As much as people bitch about spending money on guys like Champ, now we're suggesting we pay two top-dollar left tackles?

It would have to be Clady and a pick for Thomas, and it would be pretty dumb for the Browns to trade for a player who won't even play until next season, meanwhile giving up likely the best player on their entire offense.

[OrangeHoof]

Think about it. As much as people bitch about spending money on guys like Champ, now we're suggesting we pay two top-dollar left tackles?



Those top-dollar tackles are what keeps our top dollar quarterback out of the hospital. Capisce?

And trading Clady doesn't help us on cap space. It probably accelerates it. That's why you offer draft choices.

[MOtorboat]

Those top-dollar tackles are what keeps our top dollar quarterback out of the hospital. Capisce?

And trading Clady doesn't help us on cap space. It probably accelerates it. That's why you offer draft choices.

Yeah, I got it. Thus why I said, and believe, that LT is one of the four most important positions on the field.

I'm not 100 percent sure how the cap numbers work when players are traded in season, but Denver can't get under the cap by trading ONLY a draft pick for a high-dollar left tackle as you have suggested. That simply can't work monetarily.

Beyond this season, Denver then has two left tackles under massive contracts, and a fully capable right tackle and a fairly high-paid right guard. Meanwhile, Denver has to find money to sign quite a few guys, which has been a topic of conversation since the Dumervil signing/non-signing.

So, at some point, you're either trading Clady (or the player you acquire in this so called trade which cap-wise isn't possible, and probably taking 50 cents, or less, on the dollar because other teams know you can't afford him) or your swapping this player for Clady (which makes no sense for the other team involved) or you end up having to cut one of the better left tackles in the league. It makes no financial sense, and it is terrible team-building philosophy.

And that's not even factoring in whether or not a team would make a trade like that in season.

[TimHippo]

First, every offensive line has TWO offensive tackles. Second, one can be used as trade bait after the season. You just have to figure how to stay under the cap for now. For all we know, Thomas may thank us on hands and knees for getting him out of Cleveland and would be willing to reshape his contract to stay or he might be grateful we moved him to an organization like, say, Green Bay which is in the same state where he played college ball.

Yes, it could take more than a first to do it but you never know.

The late Bum Phillips remembers talking to John McKay about the Oilers trading up to draft Earl Campbell. They discussed trading first round picks and then included a few players and they thought there was a framework for a deal but Bum thought he was paying way too small a price.

So, the day before the draft, McKay calls Phillips and tells him he wants more. Now he wants the Oilers to add reserve TE Jimmie Giles to the deal. "That's it?", asked Bum trying to muffle his enthusiasm. "Yeah", said McKay. "Well, I guess we can do that," Bum said and the deal was completed. And the rest was history.

Never presume what the other side wants in the deal before discussing terms. They may value a player you know you can do without. Be prepared they will ask for a lot but don't presume they will value your players the same way you do.

That anecdote has little relevance to what we are talking about. Comparing a draft day trade to move up for a college player who has not played a down in the NFL is quite different then offering magic beans for a 6 time pro bowler in Joe Thomas or a guy who made the pro bowl in his first year (Matt Kalil). Joe Thomas was the 3rd player drafted in the entire NFL draft and Kalil was the 4th player drafted in the 1st round.

What people are proposing doesn't even make sense. Minnesota or Cleveland are going to unload one of their most valuable players at one of the most vital positions just so they can tank the season and rebuild? What so they can get a high draft pick which they would have to fill by drafting another stud tackle? If anything a dumb trade like that will just make the rebuilding process even harder.

This kind of thinking is amateur Fantasy Football GM level that will likely repeatedly get rejected until you find some sucker who isn't even playing anymore. Doesn't work in the NFL.

[Simple Jaded]

Someone like Cordy Glenn, Jared Allen or Everson Griffin. No premium pick unless it's for Adrian Peterson, but they're not trading him and they'd never get the "Herchell Walker" compensation in today's NFL.

[DenBronx]

JJ Watt.

I would be happy with a playmaker like that on defense. Watt is a machine abd him and Miller would be crazy.


Wolfe or Ayers would have to go in the deal too, which I wouldnt really complain about. Plus his contract and Miller contract together would be alot to stomach.


Seems like our OL is just battered too....so I we even made a smaller trade like a 3rd rounder for another tackle or guard that would be a need NOW. Don't see us doing any blockbuster trades really. Not sure why everyone automatically throws out the 1st rounder in a trade scenario when maybe you could get a solid player for a 2 or 3. Bill Polian said today on ESPN that usually around this time of the year trades are not discussed over the phone but they are discussed over a few beers.


But....even if we could land a guy like Watt I wouldnt complain at all.

[DenBronx]

Someone like Cordy Glenn, Jared Allen or Everson Griffin. No premium pick unless it's for Adrian Peterson, but they're not trading him and they'd never get the "Herchell Walker" compensation in today's NFL.


Now you're talkin. Jared Allen would take alot less compared to a guy like Watt. I would hate to see Minn trade Allen back to KC.

[DenBronx]

Likewise, I don't think the Texans are willing to give up Duane Brown but the Browns might be talked into giving up Joe Thomas. They've already cashed in Richardson for a low 1st next year.

Then what do you propose we do with Clady and his new deal then?

[Lancane]

Yeah, I got it. Thus why I said, and believe, that LT is one of the four most important positions on the field.

I'm not 100 percent sure how the cap numbers work when players are traded in season, but Denver can't get under the cap by trading ONLY a draft pick for a high-dollar left tackle as you have suggested. That simply can't work monetarily.

The Denver Broncos as of right now according to Spotrac http://www.spotrac.com/cap-tracker/nfl/2013/ have enough cap space to make about any move and have room to maneuver, they have 10,330,525.00 left under the cap.


Beyond this season, Denver then has two left tackles under massive contracts, and a fully capable right tackle and a fairly high-paid right guard. Meanwhile, Denver has to find money to sign quite a few guys, which has been a topic of conversation since the Dumervil signing/non-signing.

This is true, of course sometimes you make moves in order to make a run for a championship that seem costly to those outside the decision rooms, but they are also decisions that could be key to the success or failure of the season. Franklin is a solid right tackle, but Denver was looking at possibly kicking him inside at one point, problem is that Clark is struggling on the left side and Ramirez is struggling in the middle.


So, at some point, you're either trading Clady (or the player you acquire in this so called trade which cap-wise isn't possible, and probably taking 50 cents, or less, on the dollar because other teams know you can't afford him) or your swapping this player for Clady (which makes no sense for the other team involved) or you end up having to cut one of the better left tackles in the league. It makes no financial sense, and it is terrible team-building philosophy.

It’s not meant to be based on any other philosophy other than to win now. Manning isn’t going to be around much longer, especially at the rate he is getting hit recently – that will take a toll on him and force a quicker end then to be expected. Look, I usually tend to agree that ‘building philosophy’ is key to a team’s success, but where is this team without Peyton Manning? Osweiler is the starting quarterback, Wes Welker doesn’t sign on nor does Caldwell or Tamme, Moreno remains mediocre because he struggles in the system without Manning’s offense, Clady may not have been resigned due to concerns so you have a rookie at left tackle or traded for someone, Vasquez isn’t as much a priority because the youth of most of the offense, there is also a chance that neither Phillips or Rodgers-Cromartie come on board on the defensive side of the ball. But you can damn well bet this offense wouldn’t be the offense it is with the man under center. The Broncos didn’t sign him to be the franchise quarterback but to be the key cog for a Championship run and you don’t invest in that scenario without spending to protect the man, because he goes down or retires then the whole gamble backfires on the Front Office.


And that's not even factoring in whether or not a team would make a trade like that in season.

Trent Richardson and Eugene Monroe thus far, but history is full of in-season trades, most granted were for receivers and running backs but there have been lineman, quarterbacks, defensive players and more. So the idea that it is unusual is unusual, the biggest thing is, is there a team willing to give up what it would take to acquire such a player? And as I pointed out earlier, right now there are GM’s and CEO’s that know that they will be facing a rebuilding year, and they’ll be the ones making this decision. So do they take the trade or not? But it doesn’t hurt for the Broncos to put feelers out there and see what can be or cannot be done. And this isn’t just about the left tackle position, for example Alex Mack is an UFA after the season, since they are not likely to trade Joe Thomas, Denver could possibly make a package to Cleveland for the All-Pro Center which allows Ramirez to be moved to guard and to give Beadles a look at tackle…don’t get all flabbergasted, it’s just an example.

Denver could also look to Free Agency and bring in some veteran help like Max Starks, Wayne Hunter or Jared Gaither to boost the tackle position. Either way there is one glaring fact, the line as it is, is not near good enough to make a championship run, they can barely hold their own against lesser defenses let alone those of what is yet to come.

[Lancane]

That anecdote has little relevance to what we are talking about. Comparing a draft day trade to move up for a college player who has not played a down in the NFL is quite different then offering magic beans for a 6 time pro bowler in Joe Thomas or a guy who made the pro bowl in his first year (Matt Kalil). Joe Thomas was the 3rd player drafted in the entire NFL draft and Kalil was the 4th player drafted in the 1st round.

What people are proposing doesn't even make sense. Minnesota or Cleveland are going to unload one of their most valuable players at one of the most vital positions just so they can tank the season and rebuild? What so they can get a high draft pick which they would have to fill by drafting another stud tackle? If anything a dumb trade like that will just make the rebuilding process even harder.

This kind of thinking is amateur Fantasy Football GM level that will likely repeatedly get rejected until you find some sucker who isn't even playing anymore. Doesn't work in the NFL.

There is actually a long list of surprise trades of people believed to be untradeable, most notably Herschel Walker and Erick Dickerson, but they happened and during the season. That said, you seem to be missing the point, it doesn't hurt for a Front Office to put the feelers in place and look at their options, even at the veterans still available in Free Agency or second tier left tackles that can be had for less. But as it stands this offensive line is not good enough and that is the bottom line when looking at a championship run. This offensive line against KC, TEN or HOU, we may well see the end of the Manning era in Denver due to front office negligence.

[OrangeHoof]

I have no problem using a second or a third and keeping the first if that's what it takes. BTW, I'd pass on Max Starks. He wasn't even very good as a Steeler. The thing is - you either accept the o-line situation as it is and try to fix it by bringing in better talent or you presume Franklin comes back and others heal and the problem just goes away.

We went from a rebuilding team two years ago to a "win now" team because of Manning. If you believe that, you'll not want to throw away a 6-1 start because of hoarding draft picks. Realistically, it is this year or next year with Manning at the helm and that is probably it for a SB run.

[TimHippo]

There is actually a long list of surprise trades of people believed to be untradeable, most notably Herschel Walker and Erick Dickerson, but they happened and during the season. That said, you seem to be missing the point, it doesn't hurt for a Front Office to put the feelers in place and look at their options, even at the veterans still available in Free Agency or second tier left tackles that can be had for less. But as it stands this offensive line is not good enough and that is the bottom line when looking at a championship run. This offensive line against KC, TEN or HOU, we may well see the end of the Manning era in Denver due to front office negligence.

Not really. Any player can be had for the right price. All you are doing is reinforcing my point that it's delusional to think that you can get a Matt Kalil or Joe Thomas for one low #1 or even two low #1s.

The Colts had to give up one #1 draft pick, two #2 draft pick and Cornelius Bennett (who was the 2nd pick in the entire NFL draft to get Dickerson).

The Vikings had to give up the following to get Herschell Walker:
LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) -

[G_Money]

The problem right now with the OL is that everyone is out of position and we can't buttress just one position. When Franklin was on the right side we could roll a TE to the other side to help Clark when he needed it. With Clark and Vasquez on the corners they both need help, and we aren't a max protect kind of team. Manny also only seems comfortable next to Vasquez (they played together in college) so when Kuper comes in nobody knows how to work with each other.

If Franklin is a quick fix, the situation mostly takes care of itself. We'll miss Clady, but while Green+Clark might be necessary to properly protect the blind side, the rest of the guys can do their jobs well enough to keep a solid pocket for Peyton.

We just can't afford any more long-term injuries to the OL. We weren't deep, and we knew we weren't, and we didn't do anything about it.

Hopefully it doesn't bite us in the ass any more - like, say against the front of the Chiefs. I would not be against an OL upgrade, don't get me wrong, but I don't think Starks (for instance) is an improvement on Clark. Only make trades for improvements. I happen to think the Colts threw away a first round draftpick on Richardson. He looks like Ron Dayne to me.

If we can get an actual improvement for the OL (that we can afford to keep) for the price of a 30-something pick in the draft, sure. Or the DL, even - Jared Allen is a FA after the year but I could spend some sort of draft pick to acquire him knowing it's to get a ring. I don't need to spend one on the next Clark.

~G

[TimHippo]

I have no problem using a second or a third and keeping the first if that's what it takes. BTW, I'd pass on Max Starks. He wasn't even very good as a Steeler. The thing is - you either accept the o-line situation as it is and try to fix it by bringing in better talent or you presume Franklin comes back and others heal and the problem just goes away.

We went from a rebuilding team two years ago to a "win now" team because of Manning. If you believe that, you'll not want to throw away a 6-1 start because of hoarding draft picks. Realistically, it is this year or next year with Manning at the helm and that is probably it for a SB run.

Then why waste a pick on Osweiler.

Bringing in better talent to win now is a great idea. But you have to be realistic about what you are going to get. You are not getting Matt Kalil or Joe Thomas.

[G_Money]

UGH. Do not talk to me about drafting Osweiler in the 2nd when Manning was gonna be here 3-4 years (coincidentally, the length of Oz's rookie deal anyway).

:tsk: But yeah, we're not getting Kalil or Thomas. I wouldn't turn them down, mind you, but that is not the kind of player we're trading for because no team gives up their best pass protector (and one of the best in the league) for basically nothing.

~G

[Lancane]

Not really. Any player can be had for the right price. All you are doing is reinforcing my point that it's delusional to think that you can get a Matt Kalil or Joe Thomas for one low #1 or even two low #1s.

The Colts had to give up one #1 draft pick, two #2 draft pick and Cornelius Bennett (who was the 2nd pick in the entire NFL draft to get Dickerson).

The Vikings had to give up the following to get Herschell Walker:
LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) -

You're not very good at listening are you? There are more examples then just those two. So keep up the irrational argument for the sake of what? Wanting to be right?

[Lancane]

UGH. Do not talk to me about drafting Osweiler in the 2nd when Manning was gonna be here 3-4 years (coincidentally, the length of Oz's rookie deal anyway).

:tsk: But yeah, we're not getting Kalil or Thomas. I wouldn't turn them down, mind you, but that is not the kind of player we're trading for because no team gives up their best pass protector (and one of the best in the league) for basically nothing.

~G

The Broncos will re-sign Osweiler, if they've come to believe he is the future in Denver and to a conventional extension that could turn into a franchise-like contract, I am not worried about that.

And Denver might not get Kalil or Thomas, there are other options as well - they were used as examples. There are nine teams with two or less wins so far that pretty much know that their season is over all but playing out the remainder of the schedule. Not to mention that some teams have veteran lineman ahead of youthful talent that they may be willing to part with depending on their situations, if it netted them a fourth or fifth round pick they may well jump at the idea. We're not talking simply elite talent either but an overall upgrade to finish a run the Front Office set themselves up for.

[silkamilkamonico]

I think there's a good chance people are going to look back at the Osweiler pick and have a change in heart of the timing.

1 - Manning made us "win now". People can hate on the drafting of a QB in the second and I certainly wouldn't argue, but with the benefit of hindsight, no player drafted in that position last year would have changed the outcome of last season, and nobody could have predicted the events that would have unfolded to the defensive struggles of this season, from Miller being suspended to injuries to a couple of our most important pieces (Bailey and more specificially Woodyard).

2 - Osweiler was very young (21) and raw when he was drafted, he was someone who had a lot of potential but not a lot of experience. He isn't getting experience but he is seeing how arguably one of the G.O.A.T is performing on a week to week basis, how he handles his teammates and the huddle, and what it takes to be a QB at this level. He could very well come in and be the guy when he's 24-25 years old.

3 - Forget about his contract. He hasn't played anyways and teams aren't going to give a lot of money to an unknown guy who hasn't played. With Manning's contract off the table Denver will be the best possible situation for him, one he already knows, anyways.

3 - Some of these rookie hybrid QB's, IMO, are clouding the thought process of NFL fans expectations from young QB's. We could have waited closer until Manning retires, but then were counting on a QB we don't know much about who has only been in the NFL for a coupe seasons or so. With seeing what is happening to young guys starting from the beginning like Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Sam Bradford, Christian Ponder, Blaine Gabbert, and the stalled progress of some other young QB's, I don't mind seeing what can happen with a guy who is learning what it takes, and not having everything given to him.

Yes Osweiler can come in and suck (so can any young QB we maybe would have waited on). We won't know until it happens. But at least we're seeing progress with his development when we can see him and he's able to work on things like his throwing motion and other mechanical issues without being under the gun of pressure. We're seeing things that he's able to do, and he's able to work on things he struggles on. Game experience is good for young QB's. But it can also hinder fatal flaws that they need to work on and don't get a chance to because they have to constantly revert back to habits in situations where the game isn't going to slow down enough for them to change. We see that happen all the time too.

[G_Money]

So the example was basically, "Hey we could get Tom Brady... well, I mean some QB anyway, I'm sure Ponder can be had..." :huh:

I agree, there are teams out there struggling badly, but which guys off THOSE teams can be had who are upgrades? Like I said, I pretty much detest Max Starks, so please don't bring that guy up. Who is not just a stopgap now but an improvement next year as well, and worth a first round pick?

Because if Clady can't play because of that foot injury (having to play on a peg-leg is basically a career-ender, so fingers are crossed for him) we'll need a new left tackle. Is whoever we get better than 8 weeks of Clark + a TE on Peyton's blind-side, plus the ability to draft LT Erving or whoever next year?

I'm sure we could get the Jags to cough up DeMarcus Love. He plays tackle. Of course, he was suspended for PED use earlier and that's why the Vikings cut him, and he was marginal to make their squad anyway. Is a guy who couldn't make a 1-win team's roster and was only picked up by a no-win team the improvement we're looking for?

I'm not sure who's on this list. If there is a good player, I agree with the theory. But I haven't seen anyone mention a good, GETTABLE player.

~G

[Lancane]

The problem right now with the OL is that everyone is out of position and we can't buttress just one position. When Franklin was on the right side we could roll a TE to the other side to help Clark when he needed it. With Clark and Vasquez on the corners they both need help, and we aren't a max protect kind of team. Manny also only seems comfortable next to Vasquez (they played together in college) so when Kuper comes in nobody knows how to work with each other.

If Franklin is a quick fix, the situation mostly takes care of itself. We'll miss Clady, but while Green+Clark might be necessary to properly protect the blind side, the rest of the guys can do their jobs well enough to keep a solid pocket for Peyton.

We just can't afford any more long-term injuries to the OL. We weren't deep, and we knew we weren't, and we didn't do anything about it.

Hopefully it doesn't bite us in the ass any more - like, say against the front of the Chiefs. I would not be against an OL upgrade, don't get me wrong, but I don't think Starks (for instance) is an improvement on Clark. Only make trades for improvements. I happen to think the Colts threw away a first round draftpick on Richardson. He looks like Ron Dayne to me.

If we can get an actual improvement for the OL (that we can afford to keep) for the price of a 30-something pick in the draft, sure. Or the DL, even - Jared Allen is a FA after the year but I could spend some sort of draft pick to acquire him knowing it's to get a ring. I don't need to spend one on the next Clark.

~G

There is no way to really buttress the situation on the offensive line, Ramirez's timing with Manning has caused what four or five fumbles not to mention miscues? I don't really care about the comfort of Ramirez or Vasquez when it could well lead to disaster. As for Clark, he has allowed continuous pressure on Peyton even with help from a tight end and what little security Manning has on the right depends on the status of Franklin. If Clark was really worth much at all then why did they spend a large sum on Vasquez when they could have started Clark on the right side while kicking Franklin inside where a number of team officials felt he was a better fit? Hell, there was talk of them moving Beadles to the right tackle position in order to kick Franklin inside, but the loss of Walton, Clady and Koppen left this line paper thin in a year where all the pieces were suppose to be together. And as I've restated over and over, Thomas and Kalil were being mentioned simply because the status of their respective teams, in truth we have about as much a shot at either as getting Trent Williams from Shanahan in Washington. They were examples, nothing more. But as I've stated, does it hurt the Broncos to put out their interest and see what is available? No.

As for everyone going on about defensive line help? I don't see how Jared Allen or for that matter anyone else will really boost the best run defense, when the problem with the defense is in pass coverage in the defensive backfield. And why the interest in Allen when Phillips thus far has better overall numbers? And with Miller returning? This is seriously where fans think we need to improve? Rather then tweaking the offensive front or the defensive backfield? I want to know what games they've been watching.

[G_Money]

I guess I'm still confused. I'm a Ramirez hater and have been since before the pre-season, but it's not like getting some other center will help the fumbling problem because they won't have timing with Manning either, nor the ability to make the line calls.

Manny is a very strong guy, but his application of that strength is terrible. Playing next to Vasquez, though, he's a servicable blocker. Without Vasquez he reverts to being bad (it seems to me, anyway). Vasquez hasn't wandered off for the whole year, though - just a couple weeks til Franklin gets back.

Once it's Beadles / Manny / Vasquez / Franklin again as 4 of the starting 5, the remaining questions are:

1) can we stay healthy?
2) can we compensate with a TE to help Clark, or do we need a real LT?
3) can we get a better LT than Clark?

Nobody has given me any name that might actually be available who fulfills #3, so even if the answer to #2 is "no" what can we do about it? I agree we're paper thin and can't afford any more line injuries, but if the only guys we can get are worse than the backups we have, why throw away draft picks for guys who just mess up line cohesion and aren't any more talented?

I agree, I'd put out feelers and see what we can get, but I haven't seen anything yet that makes me go, "yeah, that'd definitely help us and is worth a first rounder."

~G

[Lancane]

So the example was basically, "Hey we could get Tom Brady... well, I mean some QB anyway, I'm sure Ponder can be had..." :huh:

I agree, there are teams out there struggling badly, but which guys off THOSE teams can be had who are upgrades? Like I said, I pretty much detest Max Starks, so please don't bring that guy up. Who is not just a stopgap now but an improvement next year as well, and worth a first round pick?

Because if Clady can't play because of that foot injury (having to play on a peg-leg is basically a career-ender, so fingers are crossed for him) we'll need a new left tackle. Is whoever we get better than 8 weeks of Clark + a TE on Peyton's blind-side, plus the ability to draft LT Erving or whoever next year?

I'm sure we could get the Jags to cough up DeMarcus Love. He plays tackle. Of course, he was suspended for PED use earlier and that's why the Vikings cut him, and he was marginal to make their squad anyway. Is a guy who couldn't make a 1-win team's roster and was only picked up by a no-win team the improvement we're looking for?

I'm not sure who's on this list. If there is a good player, I agree with the theory. But I haven't seen anyone mention a good, GETTABLE player.

~G

Well, it's not really a list per say as more a notion that being negligent to fix a major weakness on a team that is in 'Win Now' mode should really overlook. Feelers are never a bad thing, maybe Atlanta is willing to part with Sam Baker, Houston with Duane Brown, Tampa Bay with Donald Penn or New York with Will Beatty...people focused on the names of Thomas and Kalil like they were the only options because I simply mentioned them. Eugene Monroe was suppose to be an irreplaceable left tackle and he is now in Baltimore. And as I said, if the feelers come back empty, then it doesn't hurt for the front office to bring in Gaither, Starks or other free agents with significant time at left tackle to boost the offensive line and to either push Clark to improve or replace him. As it stands right now, if I was Manning I would be dreading the upcoming games against Houston, Tennessee and especially Kansas City, because the little protection he has at the moment is far too thin to be comfortable with, and come the playoffs? Think about how many elite defenses Denver could be facing at that time...not pretty!

[G_Money]

Sam Baker is about the only guy I've thought might be available, because he never really turned into what they wanted - however, Atlanta would take a large cap-hit on his signing bonus for the contract extension he signed, so I don't think that's gonna happen. Duane Brown signed a 50 million dollar deal last year, didn't he? So he's out for the same reasons. Penn signed a couple of years ago so Tampa Bay might be willing to do that, and he's out of guaranteed money. Starks is awful (wasn't he rated the worst starting OL in the league one year? If he wasn't, he should have been).

I completely agree, put out feelers, keep sifting free agents - don't stop looking for an upgrade. Even if someone like Penn is duking it out with a healthy Clady and Franklin next camp, we can live with that. Franklin is still cheap and could play both G and T (I like him better at guard anyway).

Better to have too many tackles than too few - but trying to add that tackle now is the thing.

So you've sold me. Try to get Penn. ;) 6ish million a year, no guaranteed cash, I'm sure he'd be thrilled to play for a contender, and his weight issues piss off control freaks in the FO and head coaching position in Tampa anyway.

~G

[TXBRONC]

The Steelers let Starks go because they figured he either close being used up or he was already there. It just so happens he is done. He was in the Chargers training camp and was let go in the first round of cuts. He was never a great offensive tackle but he did manage to make the pro bowl a couple of time.

[Lancane]

Sam Baker is about the only guy I've thought might be available, because he never really turned into what they wanted - however, Atlanta would take a large cap-hit on his signing bonus for the contract extension he signed, so I don't think that's gonna happen. Duane Brown signed a 50 million dollar deal last year, didn't he? So he's out for the same reasons. Penn signed a couple of years ago so Tampa Bay might be willing to do that, and he's out of guaranteed money. Starks is awful (wasn't he rated the worst starting OL in the league one year? If he wasn't, he should have been).

I completely agree, put out feelers, keep sifting free agents - don't stop looking for an upgrade. Even if someone like Penn is duking it out with a healthy Clady and Franklin next camp, we can live with that. Franklin is still cheap and could play both G and T (I like him better at guard anyway).

Better to have too many tackles than too few - but trying to add that tackle now is the thing.

So you've sold me. Try to get Penn. ;) 6ish million a year, no guaranteed cash, I'm sure he'd be thrilled to play for a contender, and his weight issues piss off control freaks in the FO and head coaching position in Tampa anyway.

~G

What I am more worried about is that Denver's front office will be complacent and content to go forward as is, despite the fact that the effectiveness of the offensive line or lack thereof caused two turnovers against Indy which could have been the difference against the Colts. Or that now Manning who has been beat up two weeks in a row is taking it's toll. He didn't practice due to a sore ankle - if this keeps up, Osweiler better be ready to take the helm. If it was me, I don't care if it's Beatty, Penn or someone else, but I'd rather have three above average tackles rather then possibly one come seasons' end and during the playoffs.

[Lancane]

The Steelers let Starks go because they figured he either close being used up or he was already there. It just so happens he is done. He was in the Chargers training camp and was let go in the first round of cuts. He was never a great offensive tackle but he did manage to make the pro bowl a couple of time.

That is true, so maybe Starks isn't the best name to toss in the mix, but the need remains. Maybe Denver doesn't trade for someone but rather signs Gaither and allows him to compete with Clark and remain a backup...it doesn't hurt and Gaither has played the left tackle position for longer or has played for playoff teams, that is what made Starks' name somewhat intriguing. Teams also need to remember that such veterans are not spring chickens, maybe they show up better on game day then in practice. Point still remains, right now Denver is in a precarious position in regards to the offensive line, one which could easily dictate the offense and season for the Broncos.