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DenBronx
10-20-2013, 10:57 PM
Never put the ball in his hands again.

BroncoWave
10-20-2013, 10:59 PM
Shoot.

Poet
10-20-2013, 10:59 PM
This thread has legs.

MOtorboat
10-20-2013, 11:00 PM
Well, it's not his fault he's in the game.

BroncoWave
10-20-2013, 11:01 PM
This thread has legs.

Hey King, can we borrow someone from the Bengals to shoot Ronnie Hillman?

DenBronx
10-20-2013, 11:02 PM
Well, it's not his fault he's in the game.

No shit! Moreno is the starter and Ball is a bigger stronger back. On the goal line Hillman shouldnt even be an option.


How many times has he fumbled this year?

MOtorboat
10-20-2013, 11:04 PM
No shit! Moreno is the starter and Ball is a bigger stronger back. On the goal line Hillman shouldnt even be an option.


How many times has he fumbled this year?

That was actually his first lost fumble.

sneakers
10-20-2013, 11:04 PM
punch in the balls

Poet
10-20-2013, 11:06 PM
Hey King, can we borrow someone from the Bengals to shoot Ronnie Hillman?

I'll send Pacman Jones right over.

BroncoWave
10-20-2013, 11:06 PM
That was actually his first lost fumble.

Who recovers a fumble is a pretty fluky thing though. Footballs bounce in weird ways. It doesn't make a fumble less of a mistake because the offense recovers it.

MOtorboat
10-20-2013, 11:08 PM
Who recovers a fumble is a pretty fluky thing though. Footballs bounce in weird ways. It doesn't make a fumble less of a mistake because the offense recovers it.

OK, it was his second fumble, his first lost fumble. He wasn't as much of a liability as I thought, so I'm not getting on board here...

Now...is Moreno hurt?

DenBronx
10-20-2013, 11:09 PM
OK, it was his second fumble, his first lost fumble. He wasn't as much of a liability as I thought, so I'm not getting on board here...

Now...is Moreno hurt?



Moreno is in now.

Simple Jaded
10-20-2013, 11:15 PM
Time for Hillman to find Moreno's old spot in the scout team doghouse.

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:17 PM
or a spot in FA.

CrazyHorse
10-20-2013, 11:20 PM
Who recovers a fumble is a pretty fluky thing though. Footballs bounce in weird ways. It doesn't make a fumble less of a mistake because the offense recovers it.

I thought he recovered it. I think that was a bad call. So was the missed PI on Welker at the end.

DenBronx
10-20-2013, 11:20 PM
Thats a touchdown on the next play if he doesnt fumble. 3 timeouts and all we need is a stop with time left.


We should have took the extra point earlier, should have found a way to get Welker in the gameplan earlier too.


I really hate that we didnt win this one because I dislike Irsay.

AlWilsonizKING
10-20-2013, 11:21 PM
No shit! Moreno is the starter and Ball is a bigger stronger back. On the goal line Hillman shouldnt even be an option.


How many times has he fumbled this year?

I thought the same thing when we ran the play. WTF?!?! Knowshon should be in there at that point IMO.


PEACE!!!

DenBronx
10-20-2013, 11:22 PM
Give us CJ Anderson please!!! At this point Hillman just looks like Lance Ball. How do the coaches not see this?

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:27 PM
Id rather have Lance Ball to be honest.

Skinny
10-20-2013, 11:29 PM
I swear he's got the grip of a toddler. Like taking candy from a baby.


I hope he can redeem himself as the season goes on. We're still early into this championship run.

skins_fan82
10-20-2013, 11:30 PM
It doesn't make a fumble less of a mistake because the offense recovers it.

this. Ronnie should not touch the ball again in the 2013 season

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:32 PM
He doesnt use 2 hands.... i dont get it... Like you are not Barry sanders bro...

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
10-20-2013, 11:32 PM
Yeah...Ronnie really dropped the ball tonight...literally....

jhildebrand
10-20-2013, 11:35 PM
Ditch him for a tackle on someone's practice squad. Clark is ok at best and Vazquez couldnt' hold down the fort. This team needs a T more than a fumble machine.

Army Bronco
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
I swear he's got the grip of a toddler. Like taking candy from a baby.


I hope he can redeem himself as the season goes on. We're still early into this championship run. I hope he redeems himself by getting the team water.

G_Money
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
CJ Anderson for President. :lol:

But seriously, my kingdom for a back who can get two yards on third and one (Anderson can do this) and who can hold onto the ball (nobody can be worse than Hillman and Ball have been so far).

Deactivate Hillman for next week's game and give Anderson the short-yardage carries, see what happens. Can't be worse.

~G

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
Ditch him for a tackle on someone's practice squad. Clark is ok at best and Vazquez couldnt' hold down the fort. This team needs a T more than a fumble machine.

lol seriously. give an undrafted rookie tackle a shot, Hillman not worth the roster spot.

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
Ditch him for a tackle on someone's practice squad. Clark is ok at best and Vazquez couldnt' hold down the fort. This team needs a T more than a fumble machine.

I don't think a practice squad T is the answer

Krugan
10-20-2013, 11:37 PM
Bench Manning to, he fumbled and it turned into 9 points.

Not to mention better the int, that turned into another 3.

Better harm Clark too, because we all know those sacks werent his fault.

Ohh yea, OJ too, he caused that late int....

Damn people

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-20-2013, 11:38 PM
Right before that I said out loud, "Don't run Hillman up the middle."

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:39 PM
To be honest tho, the tackles were not horrible. You cant expect them to block some of the best pass rushers 1 on 1. We needed more RBs staying in to chip. I wish moreno was in on every play, but he cant be ;(

jhildebrand
10-20-2013, 11:39 PM
Knowshon should be in there at that point IMO.




Why wasn't he? :confused: For God's sakes he was drafted #12 overall, the team had no intention of bringing him back until the fumbles all but forced their hand, and may not resign him. Run him until his legs fall off! Gase mentioned after Dallas that Moreno got more work than they would like? Why? Seriously get your money and draft value out of him!

Krugan
10-20-2013, 11:40 PM
Why wasn't he? :confused: For God's sakes he was drafted #12 overall, the team had no intention of bringing him back until the fumbles all but forced their hand, and may not resign him. Run him until his legs fall off! Gase mentioned after Dallas that Moreno got more work than they would like? Why? Seriously get your money and draft value out of him!

Maybe because its only week 7, and all be damned if we do make the playoffs we really need a running back then too.

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:40 PM
Bench Manning to, he fumbled and it turned into 9 points.

Not to mention better the int, that turned into another 3.

Better harm Clark too, because we all know those sacks werent his fault.

Ohh yea, OJ too, he caused that late int....

Damn people
im sorry, not trying to be rude... i dont get this logic.

the game was on the line for those last two series. He gave up the ball, using one hand to hold it, like a showboat.... how its not on him is like saying Romo didnt throw the game losing interception.

jhildebrand
10-20-2013, 11:41 PM
lol seriously. give an undrafted rookie tackle a shot, Hillman not worth the roster spot.

I said as depth. Obviously this team could do without Hillman. Moreno, Ball, and CJ would be fine. At this point they need someone who has been and played T to back up Franklin when he comes back so Vazquez doesn't have to. Justice can handle the other side.

G_Money
10-20-2013, 11:41 PM
If we're gonna run it up the middle, then it should have been any back but Hillman. We wouldn't have gotten it, because Hillman was met behind the LOS anyway by a horde of guys, but Hillman is for outside runs and catches only.

Blitz pickup by the RBs was bad in this game, by Moreno too. He got Peyton killed by jumping the wrong gap more than once. But I couldn't figure out our TE usage for assisting the tackles. We got it right on a couple of plays but we sure didn't use them in concert with the RBs in any meaningful way to decrease the pressure in Peyton. Weird game with a surprising lack of adjustments til it was too late.

~G

Krugan
10-20-2013, 11:42 PM
im sorry, not trying to be rude... i dont get this logic.

the game was on the line for those last two series. He gave up the ball, using one hand to hold it, like a showboat.... how its not on him is like saying Romo didnt throw the game losing interception.

Hrmm, so your saying the game wasnt on the line from the time time of the first kickoff and all those mistakes were irrelevant, just the fumble at the two?

That post was sarcasm, pointing out the knee jerk reaction of the fans, any one of those mistakes could be considered game costing, but yet the bitch fest is focused on one single play, kinda like the playoff loss.

Its frigging sick, and quite lame.

jhildebrand
10-20-2013, 11:43 PM
We had the Welker slant open all night. They were predictably handing off on first down all night when they could have been running that slant among other plays. I don't understand why Virgil green wasn't a bigger part of the game plan if not for anything more than to help block.

ShaneFalco
10-20-2013, 11:44 PM
Hrmm, so your saying the game wasnt on the line from the time time of the first kickoff and all those mistakes were irrelevant, just the fumble at the two?

That post was sarcasm, pointing out the knee jerk reaction of the fans, any one of those mistakes could be considered game costing, but yet the bitch fest is focused on one single play, kinda like the playoff loss.

Its frigging sick, and quite lame.of course the game was, but the stakes were the highest during those last minutes.

Just like the playoff loss.

jhildebrand
10-20-2013, 11:46 PM
John Fox thought it was the GOP Convention tonight and went all C-O-N-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-V-E

Krugan
10-20-2013, 11:51 PM
I would say the INT at the 20 was just as big a mistake, had Thomas even somewhat blocked there, we may very well not be having to worry about a fumble.

So where is the outcry for a blocking TE?

I just dont get it, it was a costly mistake yes, avoidable sure.

It just is, and I think once again the displeasure is abit much.

G_Money
10-20-2013, 11:51 PM
I was proud of Fox for the 4th down call, actually.

This was a team we SHOULD have been able to run on, we just didn't. I don't know if that's conservative, just being unable to take advantage of the opponent's scheme.

A mix of our OL woes and back stupidity, mostly.

Play-calling didn't help. If we threw one more pass to a double-covered RB in the flat for one yard... grr...

~G

DenBronx
10-20-2013, 11:52 PM
John Fox thought it was the GOP Convention tonight and went all C-O-N-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-V-E


Manning audibled the plays several times and it failed. Can't blame Fox. Actually Adam Gase is calling the plays. Not sure why Fox is to even blame other than putting Hillman in at the goaline. I didn't think Hillman would fumble.....I just knew he wouldnt get the needed yards. Hillman has been a NON factor this whole year.

I would give CJ the spot right now and see what we got. Moreno should have been in but.....I would have rather seen Manning throw it instead.

jhildebrand
10-20-2013, 11:54 PM
Manning audibled his plays several times and it failed. Can't blame Fox. Not sure why he is to even blame other than putting Hillman in at the goaline. I didn't think Hillman would fumble.....I just knew he wouldnt get the needed yards. Hillman has been a NON factor this whole year.

I would give CJ the spot right now and see what we got. Moreno should have been in but.....I would have rather seen Manning throw it instead.

Fair point and I agree. I probably got a little caught in the heat of the moment. However, the constant 1st down runs were way too predictable especially in where they were running. They should have gone to the slant and short routes all night and did the o line a favor. Running how they did on 1st down and where they did made the subsequent downs all too predictable.

Dzone
10-20-2013, 11:57 PM
expect Fox to turn to Hillman in the playoffs when the game is on the line.

DenBronx
10-20-2013, 11:59 PM
Sack fumble/safety
Caldwell play
Hillman fumble
Manning INT
Miller was a ghost
Vickerson flag
Holiday fumble
Decker not trying when the ball was in the area
Going for 2 instead of taking 1, which would have eased the pressure at the end...only one score still if we take 1.
Gase way calling bad plays
Manning was calling even worse audibles
Got Welker involved too late

I don't know.....alot of blame can be spread around. Still think the Hillman fumble was the most costly and he had no business being in over Moreno.

ShaneFalco
10-21-2013, 12:01 AM
Miller was not a ghost, he was pressuring Luck pretty much every play. Luck is just good at throwing on the run, keeps his eyes down field.

CrazyHorse
10-21-2013, 12:02 AM
I hope we get the Colts in the Playoffs and hand them their asses at Mile High.

jhildebrand
10-21-2013, 12:03 AM
Sack fumble/safety
Caldwell play
Hillman fumble
Manning INT
Miller was a ghost
Vickerson flag
Holiday fumble
Decker not trying when the ball was in the area
Going for 2 instead of taking 1, which would have eased the pressure at the end...only one score still if we take 1.
Gase way calling bad plays
Manning was calling even worse audibles
Got Welker involved too late

I don't know.....alot of blame can be spread around. Still think the Hillman fumble was the most costly and he had no business being in over Moreno.

What was the caldwell play you are referring to?

ShaneFalco
10-21-2013, 12:03 AM
Marshall faulk telling Ronnie he needs some cough syrup :(

BroncoWave
10-21-2013, 12:04 AM
What was the caldwell play you are referring to?

He committed the holding that put us deep in our own territory before the safety.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-21-2013, 12:06 AM
Hillman has fumbled twice on less than 50 touches. Add his two fumbles in the preseason and he puts the ball on the ground about every 15 touches. I hold my breath every time he touches the ball.

Aside from that he shouldn't be getting the ball in that situation. He is not one who breaks tackles or runs with power. He's a scat back who has a ball security problem.

DenBronx
10-21-2013, 12:07 AM
He committed the holding that put us deep in our own territory before the safety.

That play started a cluster fck of bad plays, that led to 9 points.

DenBronx
10-21-2013, 12:08 AM
I hope we get the Colts in the Playoffs and hand them their asses at Mile High.

Yeah...I already want revenge. I want us to knock the smirk off Irsays face.

DenBronx
10-21-2013, 12:09 AM
Miller was not a ghost, he was pressuring Luck pretty much every play. Luck is just good at throwing on the run, keeps his eyes down field.


He looks a little slower. He gained 16 pounds of muscle which might of made him lose some game speed. Maybe it's just rust.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-21-2013, 12:13 AM
He looks a little slower. He gained 16 pounds of muscle which might of made him lose some game speed. Maybe it's just rust.

15 pounds since his rookie year. He's only gained 5 pounds since last year. He played at 255 last year.

Simple Jaded
10-21-2013, 12:29 AM
Aside from run defense Miller was invisible.

DenBronx
10-21-2013, 12:33 AM
15 pounds since his rookie year. He's only gained 5 pounds since last year. He played at 255 last year.

I was just going by what they said pregame. Wasnt aware it was since his rookie year.


He will be fine....not worried about him on the field. Tonight he did look a little slower than usual. Slower than the Miller we are used to seeing.

NightTerror218
10-21-2013, 12:43 AM
Miller was also doubled teamed and ton

Joel
10-21-2013, 12:52 AM
CJ Anderson for President. :lol:

But seriously, my kingdom for a back who can get two yards on third and one (Anderson can do this) and who can hold onto the ball (nobody can be worse than Hillman and Ball have been so far).

Deactivate Hillman for next week's game and give Anderson the short-yardage carries, see what happens. Can't be worse.

~G


Manning audibled the plays several times and it failed. Can't blame Fox. Actually Adam Gase is calling the plays. Not sure why Fox is to even blame other than putting Hillman in at the goaline. I didn't think Hillman would fumble.....I just knew he wouldnt get the needed yards. Hillman has been a NON factor this whole year.

I would give CJ the spot right now and see what we got. Moreno should have been in but.....I would have rather seen Manning throw it instead.
Careful; last time someone argued we lose nothing by seeing what we have in Anderson it was (somehow) a declaration he's Emmitt Smith and denial of Hillmans respectable production. Needless to say, I still support the idea, but want to say for the record: Let's stop short of saying Hillman should be "shot" or "punched;" I understand it was a joke, but there are a lot of nutjobs out there who need no unwitting or other encouragement to do something awful. Release him or stick him on the PS and hope he doesn't turn into someones Trindon Holliday.


I would say the INT at the 20 was just as big a mistake, had Thomas even somewhat blocked there, we may very well not be having to worry about a fumble.

So where is the outcry for a blocking TE?

I just dont get it, it was a costly mistake yes, avoidable sure.

It just is, and I think once again the displeasure is abit much.
For what it's worth, this is why I've been pushing Dreesen ever since we signed him: He may not catch as well as Orange Julius, but is still pretty good; he may not block as well as Green, but is still pretty good. In other words, he's a darned good tight end, not just a bulky receiver or fast tackle.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-21-2013, 01:02 AM
At the end of the day, not having Franklin really hurts.

silkamilkamonico
10-21-2013, 01:05 AM
At the end of the day, not having Franklin really hurts.

Our oline was the worst part of that game IMO. Just completely manhandled. I don't even want to think about what a front 7 like KC is going to do to us if we can't get healthy and/or make some adjustments.

Joel
10-21-2013, 01:11 AM
Our oline was the worst part of that game IMO. Just completely manhandled. I don't even want to think about what a front 7 like KC is going to do to us if we can't get healthy and/or make some adjustments.
Agreed, especially with them a game up now. Losing Franklin hurts, but losing Franklin AND Clady hurts more, running and passing. It's hard to do either with no push in short yardage and no protection in long.

dogfish
10-21-2013, 01:46 AM
I would say the INT at the 20 was just as big a mistake, had Thomas even somewhat blocked there, we may very well not be having to worry about a fumble.

So where is the outcry for a blocking TE?

I just dont get it, it was a costly mistake yes, avoidable sure.

It just is, and I think once again the displeasure is abit much.

not that i'm entitled to speak for anyone else, but i'll at least take a stab at it. . . people are always unhappy in general after a loss, but there are probably two main reasons that hillman is getting singled out for extra attention. . . one, he's had ball security issues all year, obviously dating back to three balls that he put on the ground in pre-season (counting the one that wasn't called). . . he's kind of burned up his benefit of the doubt--compounded by the fact that montee ball has also coughed it up twice. . . also, hillman probably cost us our last reasonable hope of winning, just when it could have been in reach. . . fair or not, the last mistake sticks in the mind the most. . . it's the one that can't be survived-- the final nail in the coffin. . .

i don't think that people are oblivious to the fact that manning's performance was sub-par. . . but with his score-to-tunrnover ratio this year, he HAS earned more than a little benefit of the doubt. . . and while julius thomas certainly isn't exempt from criticism for his blocking, he does at least off-set his deficiencies there with his production in the passing game. . . like that TD catch he made on pure freak ability tonight. . .

clearly, there's more than enough blame to go around-- and few players that played well enough to escape any of it. . . we need woodyard and franklin back-- especially if bailey's lost again. . . i can't lie, though-- i'm among the people that are pretty disgruntled with our young backs. . . i understand that you have to have some patience for youngsters transitioning to our admittedly complex scheme, but hillman with a year-plus under his belt still struggles just as much in pass protection as the rookie ball. . . montee also can't catch to save his life, and they both keep putting it on the ground. . . you expect some growing pains, but we've seen way too many of them, and not enough good plays to make up for it. . . JMO. . . moreno doesn't have the type of durability to make you comfortable giving him 25+ touches every week-- we need another back that we can rely on to grind out yards and hold onto the ball. . . we don't need someone to be a difference-maker at RB, just execute the basic responsibilities of the scheme. . .

Northman
10-21-2013, 01:59 AM
Defense needs to get better no matter what is going on out there. But, when you turn the ball over its never going to help and that is from Manning on down the line. Turnovers are turnovers no matter who you are.

dogfish
10-21-2013, 02:29 AM
Defense needs to get better no matter what is going on out there. But, when you turn the ball over its never going to help and that is from Manning on down the line. Turnovers are turnovers no matter who you are.

holliday's propensity for them doesn't help either. . .

atwater27
10-21-2013, 07:28 AM
the real question is why were we running the ball anyways down a 6 points when they have been stuffing our run all day, especially on 3rd and 1 and when we should have been conserving time?

Dreadnought
10-21-2013, 08:17 AM
Agreed, especially with them a game up now. Losing Franklin hurts, but losing Franklin AND Clady hurts more, running and passing. It's hard to do either with no push in short yardage and no protection in long.

Agreed. With all of Julius Thomas' wonderful pass catching skills we may have to see a little less of him going forward and more of Dreesen and Tamme if he can't improve his blocking to something as good as almost adequate.

BigDaddyBronco
10-21-2013, 08:47 AM
Manning was the one who audibled for a run there. That one isn't on the coaching staff.

Mike
10-21-2013, 08:48 AM
Sooner or later the topic of undisciplined/sloppy football has to be addressed. Teams can get away with it against inferioir teams, but it will catch up to you against good teams. The coaching staff should start taking some heat.

Nomad
10-21-2013, 09:01 AM
Defense needs to get better no matter what is going on out there. But, when you turn the ball over its never going to help and that is from Manning on down the line. Turnovers are turnovers no matter who you are.

Mettenburger approves of this message:lol:

Traveler
10-21-2013, 09:23 AM
Sooner or later the topic of undisciplined/sloppy football has to be addressed. Teams can get away with it against inferioir teams, but it will catch up to you against good teams. The coaching staff should start taking some heat.

Especially Del Rio. This was the first game where it seemed like no adjustments were made at halftime. They had better fix this pass defense or it's going to be a long second half of the season. No way they can continue to give up 30+ points a game. All those senseless unsportsman-like conduct penalties will doom a team most every time. JDR better nip that shit in the bud ASAP.

On offense, JT is a complete liability when blocking, and the Colt DE's were getting constant pressure against our T' and TE's. Why didn't they go to 12 personnel (Green/Dreessen) when it was clear our T's needed help?

Not a conspiracy theorist, but, Manning just didn't look right last night. Even before the game began he looked out of it. Similar to how he looked last year when we played ATL. It seemed like he just wasn't up for this game. He would normally tear apart teams playing single coverage on our WR's. Too many of his passes were horrible looking last night. Even the TD pass to DT seemed like it took forever to get there.

The last three games have exposed our shortcomings on defense to the entire league. The injuries to our OT's also reveal our lack of depth at the position. Might be time to see what Winston Justice can do at RT and move Vasquez back to his OG position. Not sure how badly Kuper played overall, but when I did notice him, it wasn't good.

While it's still early in the season, all isn't lost. Let's see where we are at the end of November. This is the wake up call the team needed IMO.

SR
10-21-2013, 09:25 AM
Sooner or later the topic of undisciplined/sloppy football has to be addressed. Teams can get away with it against inferioir teams, but it will catch up to you against good teams. The coaching staff should start taking some heat.

Those personal fouls and bullshit penalties against Vickerson last night were absolute garbage. Del Rio should have been on the sidelines tearing him a new ass.

Broncolingus
10-21-2013, 09:25 AM
Usually I don't (seriously) get into reactionary threads, but in this case I agree & support...

...Hillman, going back to early in the preseason, has had a bad case of fumbeitis that looks nowhere near being cured...

...it's unfair to say he 'lost' the game for the Bronco's - that was a TEAM effort - but he put the last nail in the coffin.

Broncolingus
10-21-2013, 09:26 AM
The coaching staff should start taking some heat.

I agree with that too...

SR
10-21-2013, 09:28 AM
Especially Del Rio. This was the first game where it seemed like no adjustments were made at halftime. They had better fix this pass defense or it's going to be a long second half of the season. No way they can continue to give up 30+ points a game. All those senseless unsportsman-like conduct penalties will doom a team most every time. JDR better nip that shit in the bud ASAP.

On offense, JT is a complete liability when blocking, and the Colt DE's were getting constant pressure against our T' and TE's. Why didn't they go to 12 personnel (Green/Dreessen) when it was clear our T's needed help?

Not a conspiracy theorist, but, Manning just didn't look right last night. Even before the game began he looked out of it. Similar to how he looked last year when we played ATL. It seemed like he just wasn't up for this game. He would normally tear apart teams playing single coverage on our WR's. Too many of his passes were horrible looking last night. Even the TD pass to DT seemed like it took forever to get there.

The last three games have exposed our shortcomings on defense to the entire league. The injuries to our OT's also reveal our lack of depth at the position. Might be time to see what Winston Justice can do at RT and move Vasquez back to his OG position. Not sure how badly Kuper played overall, but when I did notice him, it wasn't good.

While it's still early in the season, all isn't lost. Let's see where we are at the end of November. This is the wake up call the team needed IMO.

Franklin may be back this week, so inserting Justice now is a bit premature. We're playing Washington then have the BYE. If we can't make the adjustments in practice this week and beat the Skins, our starting right tackle is the least of the team's problems.

SR
10-21-2013, 09:28 AM
As a sidenote, I do think it's a bit weird that Montee Ball was drafted because of his pass blocking abilities, nose for the endzone and penchant for taking care of the ball...yet has has not shown any of that this year.

Broncolingus
10-21-2013, 09:30 AM
As a sidenote, I do think it's a bit weird that Montee Ball was drafted because of his pass blocking abilities, nose for the endzone and penchant for taking care of the ball...

I thought the same thing last night when Hillman fumbled...

Mike
10-21-2013, 09:44 AM
Especially Del Rio. This was the first game where it seemed like no adjustments were made at halftime. They had better fix this pass defense or it's going to be a long second half of the season. No way they can continue to give up 30+ points a game. All those senseless unsportsman-like conduct penalties will doom a team most every time. JDR better nip that shit in the bud ASAP.

On offense, JT is a complete liability when blocking, and the Colt DE's were getting constant pressure against our T' and TE's. Why didn't they go to 12 personnel (Green/Dreessen) when it was clear our T's needed help?

Not a conspiracy theorist, but, Manning just didn't look right last night. Even before the game began he looked out of it. Similar to how he looked last year when we played ATL. It seemed like he just wasn't up for this game. He would normally tear apart teams playing single coverage on our WR's. Too many of his passes were horrible looking last night. Even the TD pass to DT seemed like it took forever to get there.

The last three games have exposed our shortcomings on defense to the entire league. The injuries to our OT's also reveal our lack of depth at the position. Might be time to see what Winston Justice can do at RT and move Vasquez back to his OG position. Not sure how badly Kuper played overall, but when I did notice him, it wasn't good.

While it's still early in the season, all isn't lost. Let's see where we are at the end of November. This is the wake up call the team needed IMO.

Yeah, Manning looked off. I don't know if he is hurting or just a bad night, but it was obvious.

Del Rio's scheme this year has been questionable. It is either the scheme or the players being consistently out of position. Either way it is a coaching problem.

I was thinking about Fox too. He just doesn't seem to be able to process good judgement calls quickly. He should have gone for the 4th and cm. He should have challenged the Andrew Luck scramble for a first (I think the spot was generous). He should have challenged the Decker non-TD. Hillman should not have been in the goal-line situation. The fumbles and lack of ball awareness are a joke.

Obviously this is only one loss and far from the end of the season. But I think that it has been recurring in the last few games and finally got us. You just can't keep making mental mistakes/sloppy-undiscplined football, especially in the playoffs. The players need to wake up and so do the coaches.

weazel
10-21-2013, 09:50 AM
yah all hillmans fault... lol

I blame Rahim Moore.

claymore
10-21-2013, 12:30 PM
I know Studsville has a job for life.... But, Tiki Barber didnt stop Fumbling until Studsville was fired from NY. He needs to be held accountable for the fumbles as well. I get nervous when 3 players have the ball. M. Ball, Hillman, and Holiday. 2 of those guys are Studsvilles responsibility.

Traveler
10-21-2013, 12:53 PM
I know Studsville has a job for life.... But, Tiki Barber didnt stop Fumbling until Studsville was fired from NY. He needs to be held accountable for the fumbles as well. I get nervous when 3 players have the ball. M. Ball, Hillman, and Holiday. 2 of those guys are Studsvilles responsibility.

Any ideas on who would replace him if he were let go after the season?

claymore
10-21-2013, 12:55 PM
Any ideas on who would replace him if he were let go after the season?

I only have problems, not solutions. :D

slim
10-21-2013, 12:57 PM
Punch him in the face!!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-21-2013, 01:52 PM
I know Studsville has a job for life.... But, Tiki Barber didnt stop Fumbling until Studsville was fired from NY. He needs to be held accountable for the fumbles as well. I get nervous when 3 players have the ball. M. Ball, Hillman, and Holiday. 2 of those guys are Studsvilles responsibility.

I honestly don't worry about Ball. He has a good technique when running with the ball. I don't think fumbling will continue to be a problem with him. Hillman, well, eh......

rationalfan
10-21-2013, 01:57 PM
i just scanned this thread so i might have missed it, but it's interesting that hillman's developing into the role of scapegoat and vickerson is getting by without much blame.

slim
10-21-2013, 02:00 PM
Well, this a thread about Hillman :noidea:

But you are right, there is plenty of blame to go around.

G_Money
10-21-2013, 02:01 PM
The guy who can replace Vickerson is, uh... yeah, nobody really. Hillman has plenty of replacements.

Also, Vick can remember to keep his helmet on while he's on the field (one would think). We can glue it on if we have to.

No such luck with Hillman's delicate fingers.

~G

Traveler
10-21-2013, 02:19 PM
Guessing if Houston can axe their 3rd round pick, DE Sam Montgomery, maybe Denver can move Hillman for a low round pick to a RB needy team. Only difference being Montgomery is a douche!



Texans waived DE Sam Montgomery.

The 95th overall pick in April's draft, Montgomery was a colossal bust during his short stay with the Texans. His skill set didn't translate to outside linebacker as hoped, and he eventually was moved back to defensive end, where Montgomery wasn't getting any playing time. Per the Houston Chronicle's John McClain, Montgomery was waived for violating team rules at the Kansas City hotel ahead of Sunday's Week 7 loss to the Chiefs.

http://www.rotoworld.com/sports/nfl/football?r=1

rationalfan
10-21-2013, 02:42 PM
i get the "let's trade hillman" mindtrap. but think about this clearly for a moment or two: you're a GM in the NFL. Denver calls you to see if you're interested in trading for an undersized, none-too-productive running back with a history of fumbles. are you really going to make that trade?

G_Money
10-21-2013, 02:53 PM
Hillman doesn't have to be traded or cut, but there's no reason we need him active for games we have no intention of playing him in. He's pretty good in the open field if he's not being touched. That's not something we can exactly count on, so just put him on the inactive list barring injury. He doesn't need to suit up, and it'll help him figure out that fumbling = bad.

Every time we yank him off the field for it, you'd think he'd get the hint, but that's not really the case.

It took Knowshon a while to grow up and accept his responsibilities, and Hillman was the youngest player in the LEAGUE last year and I think he's still the youngest Bronco this year - we can wait a little bit for him to adjust and figure out how to keep the ball in his arms.

But that doesn't mean we need to let him keep hurting us at critical times.

~G

Army Bronco
10-21-2013, 03:01 PM
i get the "let's trade hillman" mindtrap. but think about this clearly for a moment or two: you're a GM in the NFL. Denver calls you to see if you're interested in trading for an undersized, none-too-productive running back with a history of fumbles. are you really going to make that trade?Of course....for a 7th rd

Buff
10-21-2013, 03:08 PM
The problem is that Hillman provides speed out of the backfield that none of the other 3 backs can provide. But obviously if he keeps fumbling then it doesn't matter how fast he is.

SR
10-21-2013, 03:09 PM
The problem is that Hillman provides speed out of the backfield that none of the other 3 backs can provide. But obviously if he keeps fumbling then it doesn't matter how fast he is.

Ball security > speed.

Speaking of which...Trindon Holliday seems not to have received the memo.

slim
10-21-2013, 03:13 PM
Ball security > speed.

Speaking of which...Trindon Holliday seems not to have received the memo.

It will always be a problem for Holliday (he is too small), but you can live with it when he produces so well. Hillman doesn't produce squat, so he is completely useless.

mrbusinesz
10-21-2013, 03:14 PM
I didn't read the whole thread but I agree Hillman should not touch another ball in a Broncos uniform

claymore
10-21-2013, 03:18 PM
I dont want to throw in the towell on Hillman. I really think coaching can fix our issues at RB. McGahee had fumbling issues while here as well. Fire Studsville!!!

BigDaddyBronco
10-21-2013, 03:26 PM
Hillman needs to sit until we need him. I have no idea why Moreno wasn't in there on that play.

Manning still audibled to a run on that play, why I don't know.

SR
10-21-2013, 03:27 PM
Obviously something is up. It's a systemic thing with this team and the one common denominator with it (and our other problems aside from injuries) is coaching.

SR
10-21-2013, 03:28 PM
Hillman needs to sit until we need him. I have no idea why Moreno wasn't in there on that play.

Manning still audibled to a run on that play, why I don't know.

The play calling went to shit, just like it did in the playoffs against Baltimore last year.

Buff
10-21-2013, 03:31 PM
Hillman needs to sit until we need him. I have no idea why Moreno wasn't in there on that play.

Manning still audibled to a run on that play, why I don't know.

It felt like we ran the ball too much last night, but in looking at the stat sheet we only had about 20 carries between Moreno and Hillman... It just seemed like a lot because the outcome was continuously bad.

Mike
10-21-2013, 03:33 PM
It felt like we ran the ball too much last night, but in looking at the stat sheet we only had about 20 carries between Moreno and Hillman... It just seemed like a lot because the outcome was continuously bad.

And I think it also seemed that way because when they ran it was predictable (i.e. like every 1st down).

claymore
10-21-2013, 03:37 PM
The play calling went to shit, just like it did in the playoffs against Baltimore last year.

THe gameplan was terrible. It felt like they rolled out of bed expecting to win.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-21-2013, 03:55 PM
I see folks complaining about Hillman being on the field for the fumble play and I think it was just coincidence. Hillman happened to be on the field for the previous play when Welker got it down to the 2 yard line and we were playing hurry up. It was a long yardage play and Manning likes to get to the line as early as possible without substituting which allows the defense to match.

Hillman didn't get a chance to sub out and at that point, like always, Manning is calling the plays at the line. Normally, a run on 1st and goal from the 2 is the safest play so I don't blame Manning. Hillman screwed it up by not protecting the ball as usual.

I just don't see a lot of upside with Hillman. He really isn't as fast as everyone gives him credit for and none of his other qualities are endearing at all. Hopefully, he can can run with the scout team for awhile until he learns to focus on ball security like Moreno did and we give CJ a shot.

Bronco Bible
10-21-2013, 04:21 PM
i just scanned this thread so i might have missed it, but it's interesting that hillman's developing into the role of scapegoat and vickerson is getting by without much blame.

no holliday is getting by,am I the only person who has too hold thier breath when he touches the ball?
cocky person that DID get it handed to them by a kicker:tsk:

tripp
10-21-2013, 04:24 PM
Give Hillman the Moreno treatment of last year. Bench the guy, and bring him in if we absolutely need to.

BroncoNut
10-21-2013, 04:31 PM
OK, it was his second fumble, his first lost fumble. He wasn't as much of a liability as I thought, so I'm not getting on board here...

Now...is Moreno hurt?

I'm with you Mo, I am like wtf? I think some fans should be shot actually

tripp
10-21-2013, 04:39 PM
I'm with you Mo, I am like wtf? I think some fans should be shot actually

Premier RB's in the NFL have 1 or 2 fumbles in this season with 100+ carries, Hillman has a handful of carries and has 2 fumbles. It would be an easier pill to swallow if he was the RB of the future for the Broncos but he's not. He's a small guy who will go down after a tackle. You can't say we didn't give him a fair shot, I believe he was named starter week 1. I don't believe he should be cut, just put him on the inactive and let's put CJ into the equation against the 'Skins.

SR
10-21-2013, 04:51 PM
Premier RB's in the NFL have 1 or 2 fumbles in this season with 100+ carries, Hillman has a handful of carries and has 2 fumbles. It would be an easier pill to swallow if he was the RB of the future for the Broncos but he's not. He's a small guy who will go down after a tackle. You can't say we didn't give him a fair shot, I believe he was named starter week 1. I don't believe he should be cut, just put him on the inactive and let's put CJ into the equation against the 'Skins.

Premier running backs get more than 100 carries in a season. Premier backs, like AP, MJD (when he's not hurt and they're actually using him), CJ2K, etc, get that in four games. Other than that little nit-pick, I agree.

G_Money
10-21-2013, 04:54 PM
Hillman also had two fumbles in the preseason in similarly limited carries, right? That's where the problem is coming from. If he'd lost one fumble in his pro career that's not a fireable offense, but he's had what, 60 or 65 carries this year and has put the ball on the ground 4 times including preseason? After knowing ball security was a bugaboo last season, and in college?

Here's what I said about Hillman on draft day:


He's a smooth runner and his vision's good. I didn't like what I saw of him against faster defenses, I didn't think he had the extra gear that guys in his position need to display, I think he needs to work on catching passes and taking care of the ball...

He needs work. I don't like moving up for RBs who aren't 3-down guys and need work on the very skills we drafted them for.

Has he gotten any better at these deficiencies? I don't think so. Again, he's a really young dude. I'm fine with letting him continue to learn, but I don't want to pay for his learning curve in missed blocking assignments and fumbled balls in games that matter.

~G

G_Money
10-21-2013, 05:05 PM
BTW: average fumble rate (not lost fumbles, just fumbles) among all running backs with any sort of carries totals is something like 1.3 to 1.5%. So the average back in 200 carries puts the ball on the ground three times. When Hillman puts the ball on the ground 4 times in 60 or 70 carries that's not just a little fumbling problem, it's a pretty big deal.

Maybe with more carries it'll even out and he won't fumble in his next 150 carries, but he's shown nothing to give me that confidence, nor to make me think he provides enough production to fumble like that. People are willing to argue that Adrian Peterson fumbles too much and he runs for 2000 yards through 9-man fronts.

Hillman's got to keep the ball off the ground. Don't they make guys sleep with the ball and carry it around campus any more? I remember Omar Epps doing that, and it worked for him...

~G

DenBronx
10-21-2013, 05:15 PM
It wasn't just any fumble though, it was a fumble that cost us a game. It would have been so bad had it been in the 1st Q but with the game on the line late in the 4th Q and we are driving into the endzone you just can't do that.



You would think protecting the football would be the single most important thing for a RB. Hillmans fumble wasnt the only thing that cost us the game....but we had a real chance at a comeback up until that happened. Right now, he doesn't deserve to play and that's where I am at on that.


Moreno has shined all year and I was really dissapointed he wasn't in on that play. I don't know if he called himself out or if the coaches called him out. That's one thing I don't like about Moreno. Sometimes he calls himself out and he needs to suck it up and stay in like the rest of the guys.

We also need to see more of Ball and CJ so I hope the coaches cool it on Hillman for awhile. I am not as angry as I was last night about this loss and maybe we even needed a bit of a wakeup call. Also at least now we don't have to deal with the pressure of going undefeated, don't think anyone on here really believed we were going 19-0 this year anyway.

This game must had been an emotional wreck on Manning as well. Deep down I knew this game could be our first loss. Indy has beat the 49ers, Seahawks and Broncos.....they are not a slouch team by any means. Lets just handle KC, NE and meat the Colts again in Denver in the playoffs. It starts with Washington next week.

DenBronx
10-21-2013, 05:18 PM
I know Studsville has a job for life.... But, Tiki Barber didnt stop Fumbling until Studsville was fired from NY. He needs to be held accountable for the fumbles as well. I get nervous when 3 players have the ball. M. Ball, Hillman, and Holiday. 2 of those guys are Studsvilles responsibility.



Well....we all know what happened to the last coach who supposedly was our coach for life. He is coming to Denver next week.

MOtorboat
10-21-2013, 06:09 PM
I'm with you Mo, I am like wtf? I think some fans should be shot actually

I was thinking tarred a feathered.

Army Bronco
10-21-2013, 08:19 PM
I'm with you Mo, I am like wtf? I think some fans should be shot actually

I was thinking tarred a feathered.lol...Bring it!

Simple Jaded
10-21-2013, 09:21 PM
Any ideas on who would replace him if he were let go after the season?

Jim Skipper was Fox's RB for a long time in Carolina, last I heard he was hired by Titans after being let go by Panthers.

Dreadnought
10-22-2013, 09:23 AM
BTW: average fumble rate (not lost fumbles, just fumbles) among all running backs with any sort of carries totals is something like 1.3 to 1.5%. So the average back in 200 carries puts the ball on the ground three times. When Hillman puts the ball on the ground 4 times in 60 or 70 carries that's not just a little fumbling problem, it's a pretty big deal.

Maybe with more carries it'll even out and he won't fumble in his next 150 carries, but he's shown nothing to give me that confidence, nor to make me think he provides enough production to fumble like that. People are willing to argue that Adrian Peterson fumbles too much and he runs for 2000 yards through 9-man fronts.

Hillman's got to keep the ball off the ground. Don't they make guys sleep with the ball and carry it around campus any more? I remember Omar Epps doing that, and it worked for him...

~G

To put that in perspective, I looked up Tatum Bell, a guy who got a rap as a fumbler. Bell had ten fumbles in his career on 569 carries and 71 catches. or 1.56%. Bell was just a touch higher than average as it turns out...Hillman OTOH - jeesh.

PS - I ran the numbers on AP, and he came out at 1.4%. He had an awful time in 2008 and 2009, with 16 of his 29 career fumbles coming in those two seasons. Seems like he fixed the issue.

TXBRONC
10-22-2013, 09:32 AM
Give us CJ Anderson please!!! At this point Hillman just looks like Lance Ball. How do the coaches not see this?

Den I'm pretty sure they see a lot more than you and I ever will.

BroncoNut
10-22-2013, 01:40 PM
I know Studsville has a job for life.... But, Tiki Barber didnt stop Fumbling until Studsville was fired from NY. He needs to be held accountable for the fumbles as well. I get nervous when 3 players have the ball. M. Ball, Hillman, and Holiday. 2 of those guys are Studsvilles responsibility.

not saying you dont' have a point, but how do you figure? how can studesville control that?

BroncoNut
10-22-2013, 01:41 PM
lol...Bring it!

who says we are talking about you jerkoff?

claymore
10-22-2013, 03:49 PM
not saying you dont' have a point, but how do you figure? how can studesville control that?

The guy that replaced him in NY worked with Tiki. I think they made him wear something on his forearm or something. Its been awhile since I saw the story though.

DenBronx
10-22-2013, 03:52 PM
Den I'm pretty sure they see a lot more than you and I ever will.

Well are they seeing the fumbling in the redzone in live games like I am?

Ravage!!!
10-22-2013, 03:55 PM
The guy that replaced him in NY worked with Tiki. I think they made him wear something on his forearm or something. Its been awhile since I saw the story though.

They changed where he carried the ball. They worked with him carrying the ball up high, pressed against this peck with the ball basically standing vertical against his body instead of in tight against the ribs in the horizontal position. Worked wonders with Tiki. He went from a back that had a huge fumbling problem to a RB that rarely fumbled.

Army Bronco
10-22-2013, 07:52 PM
lol...Bring it!

who says we are talking about you jerkoff?hey dip shit...I fit the profile of what your describing so **** off.

SR
10-22-2013, 08:32 PM
who says we are talking about you jerkoff?

That's unnecessary.

DenBronx
10-23-2013, 03:24 PM
hey dip shit...I fit the profile of what your describing so **** off.

they were probably talkin about me but you took the bait.

DenBronx
10-23-2013, 03:28 PM
They changed where he carried the ball. They worked with him carrying the ball up high, pressed against this peck with the ball basically standing vertical against his body instead of in tight against the ribs in the horizontal position. Worked wonders with Tiki. He went from a back that had a huge fumbling problem to a RB that rarely fumbled.


Tiki was a comepletely differant back after that. I don't know who or where the guy is now that helped Tiki but we need him on speed dial at all times. That includes calling him for WRs, TEs, Returners and RBs.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2013, 03:43 PM
Tiki was a comepletely differant back after that. I don't know who or where the guy is now that helped Tiki but we need him on speed dial at all times. That includes calling him for WRs, TEs, Returners and RBs.

Tiki also outweighed Hillman by about 25 pounds.

claymore
10-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Tiki also outweighed Hillman by about 25 pounds.

Listed weight Tiki is 10 lbs heavier.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2013, 03:51 PM
Listed weight Tiki is 10 lbs heavier.

He only played at 205? He looked a lot thicker than that. As far as the eyeball test goes, he looked a lot stouter than Hillman does.

DenBronx
10-23-2013, 03:54 PM
Listed weight Tiki is 10 lbs heavier.

Earlier in Tikis career he might of even been lighter. Not a huge differance between the two. Tiki was by far a better RB than Hillman.


At some point Morenos probably going to fumble too but at least he is producing on the field.

claymore
10-23-2013, 03:59 PM
Earlier in Tikis career he might of even been lighter. Not a huge differance between the two. Tiki was by far a better RB than Hillman.


At some point Morenos probably going to fumble too but at least he is producing on the field.

Yeah, I hope Moreno doesnt fumble for a few more games at least. He is just now earning most fans trust!!! As for Hillman, I hope he can turn it around. I think his confidence is so low that we arent seeing the real deal.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2013, 04:01 PM
Yeah, I hope Moreno doesnt fumble for a few more games at least. He is just now earning most fans trust!!! As for Hillman, I hope he can turn it around. I think his confidence is so low that we arent seeing the real deal.

He did have a few nice runs in that game. He does get to the corner pretty well. I just struggle with it because everytime he touches the ball I hold my breath when a tackler gets close because I'm worried he's going to lose the ball. I experience similar anxiety with Holliday, but it's worth the anxiety.

Ravage!!!
10-23-2013, 04:19 PM
Tiki was a comepletely differant back after that. I don't know who or where the guy is now that helped Tiki but we need him on speed dial at all times. That includes calling him for WRs, TEs, Returners and RBs.

I actually believe that it was Coughlin, the HC, that decided to change the way Tiki was carrying the ball.

Ravage!!!
10-23-2013, 04:22 PM
Yeah, I hope Moreno doesnt fumble for a few more games at least. He is just now earning most fans trust!!! As for Hillman, I hope he can turn it around. I think his confidence is so low that we arent seeing the real deal.

Even the commentators made the point that Hillman's speed was getting something done in the running game that Moreno wasn't getting done. But even that, when we were near the goal line I said DON'T GIVE IT TO THE GUY THAT FUMBLES!! and bam... he fumbled.

I'm sure you are right, clay. I think is confidence is low. But considering he has lost time because of his fumbling problem, I think that he needs to get the ball sparingly. I"ve defended his speed and the need for speed at the RB position... and he has the burst. But damnit.... NOT IN THAT MOMENT.

broncohead
10-23-2013, 04:23 PM
I was just thinking Hillman was running well then he fumbled... He has a the potential but he needs to fix ball security issues before getting anymore touches imo

TXBRONC
10-23-2013, 05:49 PM
I was just thinking Hillman was running well then he fumbled... He has a the potential but he needs to fix ball security issues before getting anymore touches imo

Agreed.

Army Bronco
10-23-2013, 06:10 PM
hey dip shit...I fit the profile of what your describing so **** off.

they were probably talkin about me but you took the bait.So were in it together bro! Fight the power.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2013, 06:56 PM
So were in it together bro! Fight the power.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae300/LinusBilder/Adonai/Bild384.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/LinusBilder/media/Adonai/Bild384.jpg.html)

claymore
10-23-2013, 07:45 PM
Even the commentators made the point that Hillman's speed was getting something done in the running game that Moreno wasn't getting done. But even that, when we were near the goal line I said DON'T GIVE IT TO THE GUY THAT FUMBLES!! and bam... he fumbled.

I'm sure you are right, clay. I think is confidence is low. But considering he has lost time because of his fumbling problem, I think that he needs to get the ball sparingly. I"ve defended his speed and the need for speed at the RB position... and he has the burst. But damnit.... NOT IN THAT MOMENT.

Hopefully in 2 years we look back and say "glad we stuck with that kid". Cause if he dont fix it, his as has got to go.

TimHippo
10-23-2013, 08:44 PM
I was just thinking Hillman was running well then he fumbled... He has a the potential but he needs to fix ball security issues before getting anymore touches imo

Something like that is very hard to correct. David Wilson has been dealing with fumbling problems since his senior season at Virginia Tech 3 years ago. It's usually a result of a lifetime of very poor ball protection bad habits that become hard to correct. Either that or the player is too frail and will cough the ball up on impact.

Buff
10-23-2013, 08:48 PM
I was just thinking Hillman was running well then he fumbled... He has a the potential but he needs to fix ball security issues before getting anymore touches imo

He did have a couple of good pace-changing runs just prior to his fumble. I like the speed he brings to the table. I worry a little bit that his ceiling might be too low, but he was the youngest guy in the league last year if I remember correctly, so I want to give him some more time to develop.

broncohead
10-24-2013, 03:23 PM
He did have a couple of good pace-changing runs just prior to his fumble. I like the speed he brings to the table. I worry a little bit that his ceiling might be too low, but he was the youngest guy in the league last year if I remember correctly, so I want to give him some more time to develop.

Completely agree. I don't want the guy cut but he probably shouldn't be in the game when it's on the line or close.

DenBronx
10-24-2013, 03:56 PM
I actually believe that it was Coughlin, the HC, that decided to change the way Tiki was carrying the ball.

You're probably right there.

I was looking at Knowshons stats compared to Tikis, Emmit Smiths and a few other known RBs and Morenos isnt even half as bad as most of those guys.

Dean
10-25-2013, 08:10 PM
Hillman will be inactive against the 'skins. IMO this is the first public step of the front office saying fix it or you are gone.

NightTerror218
10-25-2013, 10:09 PM
Glad to see CJ getting a shot

dogfish
10-25-2013, 10:40 PM
Hillman will be inactive against the 'skins. IMO this is the first public step of the front office saying fix it or you are gone.

:defense:

hey dean, how ya doin?

Ravage!!!
10-28-2013, 12:12 AM
It appeared to me that the RBs must have gotten a SERIOUS ear thrashing during this week in meetings because each and every back ran hard. Ball had the best game he's played, moreno fought as hard as always, and CJ looked like he was ready to try hard. I hope the message is thoroughly injected each and every week and the RBs keep this fire.

DenBronx
10-28-2013, 01:53 AM
On the plays CJ was in he looked explosive. Cant wait to see more.

I dont feel bad for Hillman at all...

Dapper Dan
01-04-2016, 10:15 PM
I'm glad he's still alive

Joel
01-04-2016, 10:23 PM
The "let's see where he is in two years" comment's certainly interesting: About the same place as 2013, though with slightly less fumbles. I still think it's telling that if a RB has 6 turnovers in a season he goes to the waiver wire but if a QB does he goes to the Pro Bowl. Passing doesn't cause several times as many turnovers as running though; that's just crazy talk from people who never play nor watch, and thus know nothing about, football. Woody Hayes and Vince Lombardi, for example. ;)

NightTerror218
01-05-2016, 10:02 AM
Hillman has 863 yards this season and Anderson has 720.

Not a bad season for the duo.

TXBRONC
01-05-2016, 10:25 AM
Hillman has 863 yards this season and Anderson has 720.

Not a bad season for the duo.

That is pretty good but I think Denver is still going to need someone who can be a little more of workhorse.

BigDaddyBronco
01-05-2016, 10:37 AM
It doesn't hurt to have 3 or 4 guys you can depend on. What has impressed me the most with Hillman (other than his speed on the edge), is that he has more or less fixed his fumbling problem. Most of us thought he would be done after he couldn't hold onto the ball his first two years. How he has stuck with it and improved has been impressive.

I like the plan of getting lower round guys and rookie free agents and seeing if any of them turn out to be good. If we never spend a 1st or 2nd on a RB again I'll be ok with it.

Valar Morghulis
01-05-2016, 10:40 AM
It doesn't hurt to have 3 or 4 guys you can depend on. What has impressed me the most with Hillman (other than his speed on the edge), is that he has more or less fixed his fumbling problem. Most of us thought he would be done after he couldn't hold onto the ball his first two years. How he has stuck with it and improved has been impressive. I like the plan of getting lower round guys and rookie free agents and seeing if any of them turn out to be good. If we never spend a 1st or 2nd on a RB again I'll be ok with it.

I don't really rate his speed on the edge, I think that is overstated.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2016, 10:51 AM
Hillman would be a great 3rd down back if he could catch and block. Moreno was slow, but was a good 3rd down back because he was good at both.

TXBRONC
01-05-2016, 11:03 AM
Hillman would be a great 3rd down back if he could catch and block. Moreno was slow, but was a good 3rd down back because he was good at both.

Hillman has almost as many catches as Anderson and unless I am remembering this wrong I thought heard somewhere around camp time that his doing a good job in pass protection.

underrated29
01-05-2016, 11:20 AM
Hillman has almost as many catches as Anderson and unless I am remembering this wrong I thought heard somewhere around camp time that his doing a good job in pass protection.


Neither caught the ball like knowshon. He was a natural pass catcher. CJ and hillman are ok at it but nothing special.
He may have been in camp but he gets blown up a lot in pass pro during the games when it counts. Juwann is the only one who has stonewalled his guy most of the time.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2016, 11:38 AM
Neither caught the ball like knowshon. He was a natural pass catcher. CJ and hillman are ok at it but nothing special.
He may have been in camp but he gets blown up a lot in pass pro during the games when it counts. Juwann is the only one who has stonewalled his guy most of the time.

THat's not true... I've seen Hillman step up and cruch blitzing LBs.

BroncoWave
01-05-2016, 11:48 AM
It doesn't hurt to have 3 or 4 guys you can depend on. What has impressed me the most with Hillman (other than his speed on the edge), is that he has more or less fixed his fumbling problem. Most of us thought he would be done after he couldn't hold onto the ball his first two years. How he has stuck with it and improved has been impressive.

I like the plan of getting lower round guys and rookie free agents and seeing if any of them turn out to be good. If we never spend a 1st or 2nd on a RB again I'll be ok with it.

Hillman only had 4 total fumbles in his first two seasons. This whole fumble issue thing for him is a huge myth. I'm not really sure where it came from.

TXBRONC
01-05-2016, 11:51 AM
Neither caught the ball like knowshon. He was a natural pass catcher. CJ and hillman are ok at it but nothing special.
He may have been in camp but he gets blown up a lot in pass pro during the games when it counts. Juwann is the only one who has stonewalled his guy most of the time.

Two different offensive systems so you're comparing apples to oranges.. The more important skill to have in this offense is ability to run the ball. He was good pass catcher but he was a notch below Hilllman and Anderson when comes to running the ball.

What games are you talking about because I think of any this year where Hillman has gotten blown in pass protection?

All three backs are second tier.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2016, 11:54 AM
Hillman only had 4 total fumbles in his first two seasons. This whole fumble issue thing for him is a huge myth. I'm not really sure where it came from.

Not a myth, you are looking at lost fumbles. A drive can be killed with a recovered fumble, just as a scorig chance can be killed by a recovered fumble (as I must have been talking about in the thread back in 2013). Early on, he definitely had slippery fingers and light grip.

underrated29
01-05-2016, 12:01 PM
Two different offensive systems so you're comparing apples to oranges.. The more important skill to have in this offense is ability to run the ball. He was good pass catcher but he was a notch below Hilllman and Anderson when comes to running the ball.

What games are you talking about because I think of any this year where Hillman has gotten blown in pass protection?

All three backs are second tier.


Agreed.
As for hillman getting run over, I cannot think of a specific example off the top of my head. But I know it has happened. But it happened with CJ too. I want to say in the bengals game Vontez burfict completely ran over hillman (but it may have been CJ) I dont remember but whomever it was was crushed like an empty coke can.

BroncoWave
01-05-2016, 12:03 PM
Not a myth, you are looking at lost fumbles. A drive can be killed with a recovered fumble, just as a scorig chance can be killed by a recovered fumble (as I must have been talking about in the thread back in 2013). Early on, he definitely had slippery fingers and light grip.

No, I made sure to check that before I posted it. It was 4 total fumbles. That's two per season. That's not a fumbling problem.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2016, 12:03 PM
THat's not true... I've seen Hillman step up and cruch blitzing LBs.

Sweep the leg! :laugh:

Ravage!!!
01-05-2016, 12:06 PM
No, I made sure to check that before I posted it. It was 4 total fumbles. That's two per season. That's not a fumbling problem.

Probably the timing of his fumbles, then. Would seem early, thta he would get few opportunities, and he would put the ball on the ground. There are reasons people made the obervations back in 2013.... that's why "stats" don't always tell the story as to what is actually happening on the field.

TXBRONC
01-05-2016, 12:06 PM
Agreed.
As for hillman getting run over, I cannot think of a specific example off the top of my head. But I know it has happened. But it happened with CJ too. I want to say in the bengals game Vontez burfict completely ran over hillman (but it may have been CJ) I dont remember but whomever it was was crushed like an empty coke can.

If you can't come up with anything then you don't have answer. Something like would be pretty memorable.

BroncoWave
01-05-2016, 12:06 PM
Just for the record, I rechecked and he lost two fumbles over those 2 years. So 4 total fumbles, 2 lost. Again, that's not a fumbling problem. Those fumbles probably stuck in people's minds and got exaggerated, but it was not the issue people make it out to be.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2016, 12:44 PM
Just for the record, I rechecked and he lost two fumbles over those 2 years. So 4 total fumbles, 2 lost. Again, that's not a fumbling problem. Those fumbles probably stuck in people's minds and got exaggerated, but it was not the issue people make it out to be.

yeah.. but they got him benched. Soooooo.... apparently it was a problem.

TXBRONC
01-05-2016, 12:53 PM
yeah.. but they got him benched. Soooooo.... apparently it was a problem.

I think that is/was a fair point but that doesn't seem to be the case now.

BroncoJoe
01-05-2016, 12:59 PM
Just for the record, I rechecked and he lost two fumbles over those 2 years. So 4 total fumbles, 2 lost. Again, that's not a fumbling problem. Those fumbles probably stuck in people's minds and got exaggerated, but it was not the issue people make it out to be.


yeah.. but they got him benched. Soooooo.... apparently it was a problem.

I think it was definitely the timing. IIRC, both lost fumbles happened inside the redzone.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2016, 01:01 PM
I think that is/was a fair point but that doesn't seem to be the case now.

For sure.

Northman
01-05-2016, 01:02 PM
You also have to look at his fumble in accordance with how many times he actually touched the ball. For instance, in his first two years Hillman touched the ball 139 times but fumbled 4 times. So judging by how little he touched the ball it was easy to see why holding onto the ball might be a problem for him. Whereas in the last two years he has touched the ball 313 times and fumbled 4 times (3 this year). Im sure Ravage has a point about timing because i know ever since his fubar in Indy a few years ago Missy has pretty much disliked Hillman and anytime he touches the ball in a game.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2016, 01:06 PM
You also have to look at his fumble in accordance with how many times he actually touched the ball. For instance, in his first two years Hillman touched the ball 139 times but fumbled 4 times. So judging by how little he touched the ball it was easy to see why holding onto the ball might be a problem for him. Whereas in the last two years he has touched the ball 313 times and fumbled 4 times (3 this year). Im sure Ravage has a point about timing because i know ever since his fubar in Indy a few years ago Missy has pretty much disliked Hillman and anytime he touches the ball in a game.

Exactly.. 1 fumble every 35 touches is a problem. Glad that's been resolved. The TEAM has had a fumbling problem...but.. the NFL is about stripping the ball now days. It's another factor that has changed over the years.

NightTerror218
01-05-2016, 05:25 PM
Agreed.
As for hillman getting run over, I cannot think of a specific example off the top of my head. But I know it has happened. But it happened with CJ too. I want to say in the bengals game Vontez burfict completely ran over hillman (but it may have been CJ) I dont remember but whomever it was was crushed like an empty coke can.

That was juwan that he blew up. He was in at fullback to failed and Anderson was hit behind the line.

ShaneFalco
01-05-2016, 05:29 PM
That was juwan that he blew up. He was in at fullback to failed and Anderson was hit behind the line.

which i dont understand, this team needs a real FB

NightTerror218
01-05-2016, 07:42 PM
which i dont understand, this team needs a real FB

I believe Kubiak has always had one.

Dapper Dan
01-05-2016, 07:44 PM
I like our running game right now.

Northman
01-05-2016, 08:04 PM
which i dont understand, this team needs a real FB

Yes, they do.

Hawgdriver
01-06-2016, 01:55 AM
Never put the ball in his hands again.

I've never shared this sentiment. No, he's not the second coming. But he's got grit.

TXBRONC
01-06-2016, 09:22 AM
Yes, they do.

I agree and in hindsight it would have probably been a good idea to hold on to Joe Don Duncan.

tomjonesrocks
01-06-2016, 10:10 AM
I agree and in hindsight it would have probably been a good idea to hold on to Joe Don Duncan.

If they wanted him, they'd just call him up. Not even on a practice squad at the moment.

NightTerror218
01-06-2016, 10:26 AM
He just got AFC player of the week

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 11:50 AM
That was juwan that he blew up. He was in at fullback to failed and Anderson was hit behind the line.

Ohhh... man. If that's true, then this is goingto COMPLETELY ruin ur's complaint about needing to put juwan in the lineup OVER Hillman. How is ur goign to continue to protest for a player on the bench to start over hillman if he gets blown up, and hillman keeps winning player of the week???

This is going to COMPLETELY throw a wrench in ur's plan to organize a strike outside the stadium.

underrated29
01-06-2016, 01:11 PM
That was juwan that he blew up. He was in at fullback to failed and Anderson was hit behind the line.

You are thinking of the wrong play. The play you are thinking of Juwan was the FB and burfict blew him up and tackled CJ, who would have had a huge gain.

The play I was talking about Burfict came straight down the pipe and crushed hillman on his way to Brock.



Ohhh... man. If that's true, then this is goingto COMPLETELY ruin ur's complaint about needing to put juwan in the lineup OVER Hillman. How is ur goign to continue to protest for a player on the bench to start over hillman if he gets blown up, and hillman keeps winning player of the week???

This is going to COMPLETELY throw a wrench in ur's plan to organize a strike outside the stadium.


1. I never said I would rather see Juwann in over hillman
2. Its the wrong play
3. See the above
4. Never!!!!! We shall strike outside the stadium at Dawn!

NightTerror218
01-06-2016, 01:19 PM
You are thinking of the wrong play. The play you are thinking of Juwan was the FB and burfict blew him up and tackled CJ, who would have had a huge gain.

The play I was talking about Burfict came straight down the pipe and crushed hillman on his way to Brock.

1. I never said I would rather see Juwann in over hillman
2. Its the wrong play
3. See the above
4. Never!!!!! We shall strike outside the stadium at Dawn!

You never mentioned a hit on QB just a block getting good blown up and crushed like a can. So burfict blew up several backs then.

underrated29
01-06-2016, 01:28 PM
You never mentioned a hit on QB just a block getting good blown up and crushed like a can. So burfict blew up several backs then.



We were talking about pass pro. Thats why I didnt mention that play or any other run plays. Only the RBs in pass pro, to which I said Hillman is the worst in pass pro. Then cited the play of burfict coming through the Agap and lighting him up.


Are you still ready to protest at dawn?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-06-2016, 01:28 PM
Burfict blows a lot of people up. I don't know if that's an indictment on anybody.

My concern with Ronnie is his football iq in blitz pick up, and overall situational awareness on 3rd down. He gets more reps than CJ, but yet has less catches. I wonder if this is means the coaches are more confident on CJ in those situations.

TXBRONC
01-06-2016, 01:53 PM
If they wanted him, they'd just call him up. Not even on a practice squad at the moment.

If I'm not mistaken it's to late bring him in. Nevertheless, it might have been good idea to hand on to him to begin with.

TXBRONC
01-06-2016, 01:55 PM
Burfict blows a lot of people up. I don't know if that's an indictment on anybody.

My concern with Ronnie is his football iq in blitz pick up, and overall situational awareness on 3rd down. He gets more reps than CJ, but yet has less catches. I wonder if this is means the coaches are more confident on CJ in those situations.

Al, fwiw Anderson has all of one more reception than Hillman.

OrangeFanatic
01-06-2016, 02:01 PM
Kapri ******* Bibbs please.

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 02:04 PM
Kapri ******* Bibbs please.

the guy on the bench is always so popular.

OrangeFanatic
01-06-2016, 02:05 PM
the guy on the bench is always so popular.

Still not even on the bench...might as well give him a shot.

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 02:12 PM
Still not even on the bench...might as well give him a shot.

why? That doesn't even make sense to give the guy "a shot" when our running game just went for 7 ypc, and our RB was the AFC player of the week. If he's not good enough to get in the lineup, why "might as well" give him a shot...as if everyone is hurt?? I'm confused by this logic. :confused:

OrangeFanatic
01-06-2016, 02:19 PM
why? That doesn't even make sense to give the guy "a shot" when our running game just went for 7 ypc, and our RB was the AFC player of the week. If he's not good enough to get in the lineup, why "might as well" give him a shot...as if everyone is hurt?? I'm confused by this logic. :confused:

Are you kidding me? Our running game was horrible. We got lucky with a few big runs to boost our YPC, but our running game is still complete garbage. WHICH is all linked to our worthless/garbage offensive line.

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 02:32 PM
Are you kidding me? Our running game was horrible. We got lucky with a few big runs to boost our YPC, but our running game is still complete garbage. WHICH is all linked to our worthless/garbage offensive line.

so the answer, in your eyes, is to bring a guy off the practice squad?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-06-2016, 02:37 PM
Al, fwiw Anderson has all of one more reception than Hillman.

I understand it's not a huge gap...I'm just saying that he should have more receptions.

OrangeFanatic
01-06-2016, 02:46 PM
so the answer, in your eyes, is to bring a guy off the practice squad?

Exactly, try something new instead of trying the same thing over and over with no success.

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 02:50 PM
Exactly, try something new instead of trying the same thing over and over with no success.

Yeah.. that's just a big giant step to failure.... considering we have had success. Maybe you just don't know success when you see it... as illustrated in the other thread. But you don't think the coaches know what they have seen from the practice squad guy? Considering the OL, don't you think its important to recognize blitzes and pick ups? Would you want the PS guy protecting your back.. in the playoffs no less.... if you were our QB?

Zweems56
01-06-2016, 03:31 PM
We were talking about pass pro. Thats why I didnt mention that play or any other run plays. Only the RBs in pass pro, to which I said Hillman is the worst in pass pro. Then cited the play of burfict coming through the Agap and lighting him up.


Are you still ready to protest at dawn?

waitwaitwaitwaitwait... Maybe I just didn't read far enough back, but are you seriously bitching about Hillman getting blown up by Burfict in pass pro? I think I know exactly what play you're talking about. Brock still got the ball out, right?

I was impressed as hell with Hillman on that play. He stuck his nose in there and attempted to block one of the angriest 250lb men that currently plays this game. Burfict is a ******* ball of destructive energy. He got right in there, popped him and got bowled over. But he slowed down a giant for enough time for Brock to get the ball out. You can't ask for more out of a guy that gives up 50+ lbs and 4" to Burfict.

For real... are you actually complaining about Hillman putting in effort to block that giant son of a bitch and losing the 1-on-1? Get the hell out of here.

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 03:34 PM
For real... are you actually complaining about Hillman putting in effort to block that giant son of a bitch and losing the 1-on-1? Get the hell out of here.

This is a brilliant sentence!

underrated29
01-06-2016, 06:59 PM
waitwaitwaitwaitwait... Maybe I just didn't read far enough back, but are you seriously bitching about Hillman getting blown up by Burfict in pass pro? I think I know exactly what play you're talking about. Brock still got the ball out, right?

I was impressed as hell with Hillman on that play. He stuck his nose in there and attempted to block one of the angriest 250lb men that currently plays this game. Burfict is a ******* ball of destructive energy. He got right in there, popped him and got bowled over. But he slowed down a giant for enough time for Brock to get the ball out. You can't ask for more out of a guy that gives up 50+ lbs and 4" to Burfict.

For real... are you actually complaining about Hillman putting in effort to block that giant son of a bitch and losing the 1-on-1? Get the hell out of here.



No.

You didnt read far enough back. I have been stating that CJ is a better back than hillman. That CJ should start in place of hillman.


Then people chimed in trying to say hillman is a better blocker, better runner, etc. Anyone who has watched the games knows that CJ is the better runner, the better pass pro guy. Its clear as day. A select few are trying to argue otherwise, mainly for the sake of arguing I think.

NightTerror218
01-06-2016, 07:23 PM
No.

You didnt read far enough back. I have been stating that CJ is a better back than hillman. That CJ should start in place of hillman.

Then people chimed in trying to say hillman is a better blocker, better runner, etc. Anyone who has watched the games knows that CJ is the better runner, the better pass pro guy. Its clear as day. A select few are trying to argue otherwise, mainly for the sake of arguing I think.

Hillman is a nice compliment to CJ sometimes his burst is just enough to get yards where CJ has problems. CJ is the better running but their styles compliment.

Ravage!!!
01-06-2016, 07:27 PM
No.

You didnt read far enough back. I have been stating that CJ is a better back than hillman. That CJ should start in place of hillman.


Then people chimed in trying to say hillman is a better blocker, better runner, etc. Anyone who has watched the games knows that CJ is the better runner, the better pass pro guy. Its clear as day. A select few are trying to argue otherwise, mainly for the sake of arguing I think.

Well.. its hard to take your criticisms too seriously since you are so overly harsh on Hillman, despite him producing well for this team and doing a good job. So when you try to say "obviously" or "clear as day." What you are really saying is "if they don't agree with me, then they don't know what they are talking about."

You use this "should start" in front of Hillman statement. Yet, the coaches... the ones that know the gameplans, the practices, and the needs from the RB position... keep Hillman over CJ despite your "should be" be statements. Perhaps the coaches haven't watched the games??? Maybe they do that mainly for the agument sake.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-06-2016, 08:12 PM
Well.. its hard to take your criticisms too seriously since you are so overly harsh on Hillman, despite him producing well for this team and doing a good job. So when you try to say "obviously" or "clear as day." What you are really saying is "if they don't agree with me, then they don't know what they are talking about."

You use this "should start" in front of Hillman statement. Yet, the coaches... the ones that know the gameplans, the practices, and the needs from the RB position... keep Hillman over CJ despite your "should be" be statements. Perhaps the coaches haven't watched the games??? Maybe they do that mainly for the agument sake.

It seems as though the only reason Anderson dropped on the depth chart in the last 5-6 weeks is because of injury. He's had ankle issues this last month and they had to limit his reps.

MOtorboat
01-06-2016, 08:24 PM
Joe Don Duncan. Lol.

Simple Jaded
01-06-2016, 08:54 PM
Offensive line. Bad.

BroncoWave
01-06-2016, 08:55 PM
Well.. its hard to take your criticisms too seriously since you are so overly harsh on Hillman, despite him producing well for this team and doing a good job. So when you try to say "obviously" or "clear as day." What you are really saying is "if they don't agree with me, then they don't know what they are talking about."

You use this "should start" in front of Hillman statement. Yet, the coaches... the ones that know the gameplans, the practices, and the needs from the RB position... keep Hillman over CJ despite your "should be" be statements. Perhaps the coaches haven't watched the games??? Maybe they do that mainly for the agument sake.

And he can't even use the argument that Hillman was drafted high and that's why he's playing, because this coaching staff didn't even draft him.

aberdien
01-06-2016, 09:01 PM
Hillman and CJ are fine. Doing about as well as you can with that O-line.

Dapper Dan
01-06-2016, 09:20 PM
We should sign more players that don't get hurt.

BroncoWave
01-06-2016, 09:21 PM
We should sign more players that don't get hurt.

I think you just cracked the code!

underrated29
01-06-2016, 10:22 PM
Well.. its hard to take your criticisms too seriously since you are so overly harsh on Hillman, despite him producing well for this team and doing a good job. So when you try to say "obviously" or "clear as day." What you are really saying is "if they don't agree with me, then they don't know what they are talking about."

You use this "should start" in front of Hillman statement. Yet, the coaches... the ones that know the gameplans, the practices, and the needs from the RB position... keep Hillman over CJ despite your "should be" be statements. Perhaps the coaches haven't watched the games??? Maybe they do that mainly for the agument sake.


It is obvious and clear as day. And every single, every single fact points to that. Stats, YPC, pass pro, etc. and had CJ not been hurt he would have been. I also bet CJ will be once the playoffs start.

But you are free to start a poll. I bet CJ would win the vote of who should start, or the better back, or whatever criteria you would like.

It's funny because the coaches did see it as CJ was the starter all the way until he got hurt. But feel free to argue otherwise. You know it's the wrong side and likely your only holding point, the coaches, will be making that switch sooner than later.

Simple Jaded
01-06-2016, 10:31 PM
The poll should be who is the better back, it's Anderson imo, but I don't care which one starts as long as they're both used successfully.

Dapper Dan
01-06-2016, 11:08 PM
The poll should be who is the better back, it's Anderson imo, but I don't care which one starts as long as they're both used successfully.

What poll?

Simple Jaded
01-06-2016, 11:20 PM
What poll?

UR told Rav to start a poll.

NightTerror218
01-06-2016, 11:57 PM
It is obvious and clear as day. And every single, every single fact points to that. Stats, YPC, pass pro, etc. and had CJ not been hurt he would have been. I also bet CJ will be once the playoffs start.

But you are free to start a poll. I bet CJ would win the vote of who should start, or the better back, or whatever criteria you would like.

It's funny because the coaches did see it as CJ was the starter all the way until he got hurt. But feel free to argue otherwise. You know it's the wrong side and likely your only holding point, the coaches, will be making that switch sooner than later.

I think CJ will be starter, early in season he struggled and Hillman given go ahead then CJ took off and then got injured.

Valar Morghulis
01-07-2016, 02:24 AM
What poll?

Calm down, he is taking about a poll, not a pole

BroncoJoe
01-07-2016, 08:31 AM
Does it really matter who the starter is? They both get carries, and they both excel at their individual strengths.

BroncoWave
01-07-2016, 08:34 AM
Does it really matter who the starter is? They both get carries, and they both excel at their individual strengths.

But then what are we all going to argue about?!??!!?1?!1/?!?

Dapper Dan
01-07-2016, 09:15 AM
Does it really matter who the starter is? They both get carries, and they both excel at their individual strengths.

Because someone else can always do better

underrated29
01-07-2016, 10:09 AM
Does it really matter who the starter is? They both get carries, and they both excel at their individual strengths.



Because one is much better at running up the middle, much better at short yardage situations, and much better at breaking tackles. Another is good at running outside.

Ravage!!!
01-07-2016, 11:02 AM
But you are free to start a poll. I bet CJ would win the vote of who should start, or the better back, or whatever criteria you would like.



Actually, I find it funny that you think a poll would prove your opinion. That's pretty funny.

Other than that, I just don't think I see CJ as being as good as you see him being, and I certainly don't see Hillman being nearly as bad as you see him being. You can tell me it's "clear as day" allllllllllll day long, and it STILL is just your opinion.

DenBronx
01-07-2016, 11:15 AM
Ok...so he's playing alot better now and I think that's because he has grown as a player and is way more comfortable in this scheme. As fans, we can only go off of what schemes the players are in at the current time and how they execute the game plan. Also, many of us had been begging to see CJ as the starter and no doubt he was the better back late in this season.

What used to piss me off at Hillman wasn't just the fumbles or terrible running. It was his fumbles at THE WORST time and side of the field.


But thanks DD for bumping a old and played out stale ass thread. Good job, that alone should guarantee you a spot in the Bronco forums HOF! Lol

underrated29
01-07-2016, 11:47 AM
Actually, I find it funny that you think a poll would prove your opinion. That's pretty funny.

Other than that, I just don't think I see CJ as being as good as you see him being, and I certainly don't see Hillman being nearly as bad as you see him being. You can tell me it's "clear as day" allllllllllll day long, and it STILL is just your opinion.



Except "my opinion" is shared by nearly everyone but you. When everyone says it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and floats like a duck. You might want to consider the idea its a duck.

Like I said, Clear as day.

Ravage!!!
01-07-2016, 11:50 AM
Except "my opinion" is shared by nearly everyone but you. When everyone says it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and floats like a duck. You might want to consider the idea its a duck.

Like I said, Clear as day.

Except, no matter how many you believe (or even do) agree with you, ur..its STILL an opinion. You might believe your opinion to be "more true" because others agree with you...but that doesn't make your opinion more factual, more right, or a fact....at all.

So...its not a duck by fact, but to you, it looks like a duck when in reality it's just a shared opinion. An opinion that I don't think is as "clear" as you want to believe/want it to be.

underrated29
01-07-2016, 11:53 AM
Except, no matter how many you believe (or even do) agree with you, ur..its STILL an opinion. You might believe your opinion to be "more true" because others agree with you...but that doesn't make your opinion more factual, more right, or a fact....at all.

So...its not a duck by fact, but to you, it looks like a duck.



Well then why do you take issue when I say this duck is better than the other gosling

Ravage!!!
01-07-2016, 11:57 AM
Well then why do you take issue when I say this duck is better than the other gosling

I'm confused by this question. I'm assuming because my opinion may vary from yours, although I recognize that is your opinion. I don't think its such a wide gap as you proclaim, and I don't think CJ is all that good. I don't think Hillman is a workhorse RB, but I certainly don't think he's NEARLY as bad as you try to make him out to be. I think your 'opinion' is just one that seems to exaggerate the deficiencies of Hillman without being fair. That's MY opinion.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
01-07-2016, 01:37 PM
Um... "shoot"?

Seems drastic compared to the other options.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-07-2016, 01:40 PM
Um... "shoot"?

Seems drastic compared to the other options.

It could be something as harmless as an air soft gun. Don't make assumptions, jeesh.

Zweems56
01-07-2016, 01:48 PM
It is obvious and clear as day. And every single, every single fact points to that. Stats, YPC, pass pro, etc. and had CJ not been hurt he would have been. I also bet CJ will be once the playoffs start.

But you are free to start a poll. I bet CJ would win the vote of who should start, or the better back, or whatever criteria you would like.

It's funny because the coaches did see it as CJ was the starter all the way until he got hurt. But feel free to argue otherwise. You know it's the wrong side and likely your only holding point, the coaches, will be making that switch sooner than later.

What happens to actually be clear as day is why CJ is playing the second fiddle right now. Kubiak said it himself if you bothered to listen early in the season. CJ functions better in that "chip on the shoulder" role. He runs angrier. He got the shot at the bellcow quite a bit early in the season and failed spectacularly. Injuries aside, Ronnie has been given the "starting" role and CJ has been "spelling" him. You do realize that a lot of CJ's success has been based on running late in the game against a worn down defense, right? I'm not trying to take anything away from CJ here... he's been brilliant late in the season. But I think a lot of the reason that he's been brilliant is because Kubiak manufactured that chip back onto his shoulder that he had before he was declared the preseason-bellcow-starter-first-round-fantasy-pick-super-productive-heavyweight-champion-of-the-world.

Buff
01-07-2016, 03:35 PM
What happens to actually be clear as day is why CJ is playing the second fiddle right now. Kubiak said it himself if you bothered to listen early in the season. CJ functions better in that "chip on the shoulder" role. He runs angrier. He got the shot at the bellcow quite a bit early in the season and failed spectacularly. Injuries aside, Ronnie has been given the "starting" role and CJ has been "spelling" him. You do realize that a lot of CJ's success has been based on running late in the game against a worn down defense, right? I'm not trying to take anything away from CJ here... he's been brilliant late in the season. But I think a lot of the reason that he's been brilliant is because Kubiak manufactured that chip back onto his shoulder that he had before he was declared the preseason-bellcow-starter-first-round-fantasy-pick-super-productive-heavyweight-champion-of-the-world.

Disagree with your assertion that Ronnie has earned the #1 role outright. I thought it was pretty clear that CJ had been getting a limited workload due to his lack of health/durability this year.

Zweems56
01-07-2016, 04:43 PM
Disagree with your assertion that Ronnie has earned the #1 role outright. I thought it was pretty clear that CJ had been getting a limited workload due to his lack of health/durability this year.
I didn't assert that Ronnie earned anything. I asserted that CJ lost it of his own accord and he hasn't reclaimed yet. CJ lost his "starting" role partly because of injury and partly because of performance. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that he was largely ineffective until Pats week, both injured and uninjured. Ronnie and CJ are splitting reps for the rest of the season. What is the difference between 1a and 1b? CJ operates well with the chip on his shoulder and Kubes said as much.

underrated29
01-07-2016, 04:50 PM
I didn't assert that Ronnie earned anything. I asserted that CJ lost it of his own accord and he hasn't reclaimed yet. CJ lost his "starting" role partly because of injury and partly because of performance. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that he was largely ineffective until Pats week, both injured and uninjured. Ronnie and CJ are splitting reps for the rest of the season. What is the difference between 1a and 1b? CJ operates well with the chip on his shoulder and Kubes said as much.



I understand your point better. The difference is as I posted above. CJ is clear as day better running between the tackles, short yardage situations. The week before the pats game he was running better and he has since then too. 1A and B is fine. I think most agree in the NFL now that is the best way unless you have an AD or Gurley type.

I also refuse to believe CJ only runs hard because he is the B to Ronnies A. If that is the case and CJ has no motivation then he shouldnt even be on this team. But, I do not believe it. I think CJ is the better back by a long shot, especially for our team, and is the one that should be used in short/goal situations.

Zweems56
01-07-2016, 05:06 PM
I understand your point better. The difference is as I posted above. CJ is clear as day better running between the tackles, short yardage situations. The week before the pats game he was running better and he has since then too. 1A and B is fine. I think most agree in the NFL now that is the best way unless you have an AD or Gurley type.

I also refuse to believe CJ only runs hard because he is the B to Ronnies A. If that is the case and CJ has no motivation then he shouldnt even be on this team. But, I do not believe it. I think CJ is the better back by a long shot, especially for our team, and is the one that should be used in short/goal situations.

I mean.. you can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, man. Whether or not there shouldn't be a place on the roster for someone who needs something to motivate them to be great? You're ******* crazy. This has been CJ's M.O. since day 1. Why is he number 22? Because there were 22 RBs drafted before him. Some people need that chip and that motivation. That doesn't make them bad players. Sometimes players need to manufacture motivation themselves.

I know everyone's entitled to their opinions, man, but that's just ******* retarded. Everyone motivates themselves to get through their day to day tasks in different ways. If CJ needs to motivate himself by saying "yeah, well you think he's better than me? Bullshit. Is he better than THIS!?" who the hell are we to judge him? Like I said before, Kubiak himself said that CJ plays better with a chip on his shoulder. However the hell that chip needs to get manufactured, I'm just perfectly fine with it. He has been EXTREMELY effective in his role on this team the past several weeks.

Edit: Also, why does the "between the tackles" RB need to be the #1 RB? I'm not sure where you're getting with this garbage. It's not like we're running Ronnie on the goal line, or through the A gap, and it's not like we're running tosses with CJ. Ronnie HAS been getting the majority of the outside runs, and CJ HAS been getting the majority of the between the tackle work.

Edit2: Yep. I need to keep talking about it because your second paragraph has me so goddamn salty right now. For real, how do you get yourself motivated to work your dead end job like the rest of us plebs? These guys aren't ALLOWED to have a bad day. They can't come in to work on a Sunday and just say "wellp... I slept poorly last night and had an argument with the lady, so I'm just gonna squeak by my day today." No. They play a grown-ass man's game where they are in a goddamn car crash on every single snap. Whether they need to motivate themselves or not, neither one of us has the right to question what he does to get up for game day. That shit pisses me off, man.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-07-2016, 05:19 PM
Yes, CJ was ineffective early in the year, due to turf toe

Simple Jaded
01-07-2016, 06:42 PM
Um... "shoot"?

Seems drastic compared to the other options.

They meant shoot as in photo shoot, porn is the engine that drives the internet.

underrated29
01-07-2016, 07:34 PM
I mean.. you can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, man. Whether or not there shouldn't be a place on the roster for someone who needs something to motivate them to be great? You're ******* crazy. This has been CJ's M.O. since day 1. Why is he number 22? Because there were 22 RBs drafted before him. Some people need that chip and that motivation. That doesn't make them bad players. Sometimes players need to manufacture motivation themselves.

I know everyone's entitled to their opinions, man, but that's just ******* retarded. Everyone motivates themselves to get through their day to day tasks in different ways. If CJ needs to motivate himself by saying "yeah, well you think he's better than me? Bullshit. Is he better than THIS!?" who the hell are we to judge him? Like I said before, Kubiak himself said that CJ plays better with a chip on his shoulder. However the hell that chip needs to get manufactured, I'm just perfectly fine with it. He has been EXTREMELY effective in his role on this team the past several weeks.

Edit: Also, why does the "between the tackles" RB need to be the #1 RB? I'm not sure where you're getting with this garbage. It's not like we're running Ronnie on the goal line, or through the A gap, and it's not like we're running tosses with CJ. Ronnie HAS been getting the majority of the outside runs, and CJ HAS been getting the majority of the between the tackle work.

Edit2: Yep. I need to keep talking about it because your second paragraph has me so goddamn salty right now. For real, how do you get yourself motivated to work your dead end job like the rest of us plebs? These guys aren't ALLOWED to have a bad day. They can't come in to work on a Sunday and just say "wellp... I slept poorly last night and had an argument with the lady, so I'm just gonna squeak by my day today." No. They play a grown-ass man's game where they are in a goddamn car crash on every single snap. Whether they need to motivate themselves or not, neither one of us has the right to question what he does to get up for game day. That shit pisses me off, man.



What the hell are you talking about?

BroncoWave
01-07-2016, 07:36 PM
What the hell are you talking about?

He's basically saying who ****ing cares how CJ gets motivated so long as he does so? Michael Jordan was the kind of creating chips on his shoulder to get fired up. Was he not worthy of playing either?

underrated29
01-07-2016, 07:39 PM
I mean.. you can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, man. Whether or not there shouldn't be a place on the roster for someone who needs something to motivate them to be great? You're ******* crazy. This has been CJ's M.O. since day 1. Why is he number 22? Because there were 22 RBs drafted before him. Some people need that chip and that motivation. That doesn't make them bad players. Sometimes players need to manufacture motivation themselves.

I know everyone's entitled to their opinions, man, but that's just ******* retarded. Everyone motivates themselves to get through their day to day tasks in different ways. If CJ needs to motivate himself by saying "yeah, well you think he's better than me? Bullshit. Is he better than THIS!?" who the hell are we to judge him? Like I said before, Kubiak himself said that CJ plays better with a chip on his shoulder. However the hell that chip needs to get manufactured, I'm just perfectly fine with it. He has been EXTREMELY effective in his role on this team the past several weeks.

Edit: Also, why does the "between the tackles" RB need to be the #1 RB? I'm not sure where you're getting with this garbage. It's not like we're running Ronnie on the goal line, or through the A gap, and it's not like we're running tosses with CJ. Ronnie HAS been getting the majority of the outside runs, and CJ HAS been getting the majority of the between the tackle work.

Edit2: Yep. I need to keep talking about it because your second paragraph has me so goddamn salty right now. For real, how do you get yourself motivated to work your dead end job like the rest of us plebs? These guys aren't ALLOWED to have a bad day. They can't come in to work on a Sunday and just say "wellp... I slept poorly last night and had an argument with the lady, so I'm just gonna squeak by my day today." No. They play a grown-ass man's game where they are in a goddamn car crash on every single snap. Whether they need to motivate themselves or not, neither one of us has the right to question what he does to get up for game day. That shit pisses me off, man.



I re-read this and I still don't know what you are saying.


You said CJ plays better because he has a chip on his shoulder because he is the 1b to Ronnies 1a. You said this. I think that's bullshit. He shouldn't have to be motivated to play that day because Ronnie started over him.

As for him being 22, yes. I forgot which rb, lynch I think, told him to make sure the NFL knows his story. That's a chip! But being 1b to a 1a is not.


Also, yes, Ronnie has been the guy we've been running at goalie and through the a gaps. And yes, CJ is the one we have run pitch plays too. Exactly opposite of what you just said. Have you watched the games? Or did I just not get what you were trying to state there. Because what you said we haven't been doing is exactly what we have been doing. Clear as day.

Hope that clears it up for you because I have no idea what else you are talking about

underrated29
01-07-2016, 07:40 PM
He's basically saying who ****ing cares how CJ gets motivated so long as he does so? Michael Jordan was the kind of creating chips on his shoulder to get fired up. Was he not worthy of playing either?


Who said MJ was not worthy of playing?
Who said CJ is not worthy of playing?

Are you guys all on drugs? This is some of the most retarded arguments I have ever had.

Let me try, is Brock not worthy of playing because his name rhymes with rock?

Northman
01-07-2016, 07:43 PM
Who said MJ was not worthy of playing?
Who said CJ is not worthy of playing?

Are you guys all on drugs? This is some of the most retarded arguments I have ever had.

Let me try, is Brock not worthy of playing because his name rhymes with rock?

Can you smell what the Brock is cooking????

BroncoWave
01-07-2016, 07:48 PM
Who said MJ was not worthy of playing?
Who said CJ is not worthy of playing?

Are you guys all on drugs? This is some of the most retarded arguments I have ever had.

Let me try, is Brock not worthy of playing because his name rhymes with rock?

This is what you said:

"I also refuse to believe CJ only runs hard because he is the B to Ronnies A. If that is the case and CJ has no motivation then he shouldnt even be on this team."

You are basically saying he is not worthy of playing for the Broncos if he derives his motivation from not being the starter.

SR
01-07-2016, 07:49 PM
Good lord.

Zweems56
01-07-2016, 07:53 PM
Who said MJ was not worthy of playing?
Who said CJ is not worthy of playing?

Are you guys all on drugs? This is some of the most retarded arguments I have ever had.

Let me try, is Brock not worthy of playing because his name rhymes with rock?

You. You said that. You said if CJ needs motivating there is no spot for him on the team. Those words left your fingers and they are retarded.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-07-2016, 08:07 PM
I will never get that two minutes of my life back.

underrated29
01-07-2016, 10:23 PM
I know and I've been sucked in to these guys stupidness.

underrated29
01-07-2016, 10:30 PM
This is what you said:

"I also refuse to believe CJ only runs hard because he is the B to Ronnies A. If that is the case and CJ has no motivation then he shouldnt even be on this team."

You are basically saying he is not worthy of playing for the Broncos if he derives his motivation from not being the starter.


You. You said that. You said if CJ needs motivating there is no spot for him on the team. Those words left your fingers and they are retarded.



Right.
Saying CJ only runs hard because he is not the starter is bullshit. If we have any player on this team that won't play hard (run, pass, catch, defend whatever position) because they are the starter, they don't belong in the NFL.

I can't honestly believe either of you actually believe this. Tim hippo makes more sense with his 3 cone drills than this. Tell you guys what, you believe the only reason CJ runs hard is because he is the backup to Ronnie. And that Ronnie is the better back despite, well, everything. I'd say logic but that obviously left the building.

Maybe you guys can tell us all how logic will come back after it has spent time backing up Ronnie Hillman too.

BroncoWave
01-07-2016, 10:33 PM
Right.
Saying CJ only runs hard because he is not the starter is bullshit. If we have any player on this team that won't play hard (run, pass, catch, defend whatever position) because they are the starter, they don't belong in the NFL.

I can't honestly believe either of you actually believe this. Tim hippo makes more sense with his 3 cone drills than this. Tell you guys what, you believe the only reason CJ runs hard is because he is the backup to Ronnie. And that Ronnie is the better back despite, well, everything. I'd say logic but that obviously left the building.

Maybe you guys can tell us all how logic will come back after it has spent time backing up Ronnie Hillman too.

Who has said CJ only runs hard because he is the backup? You are the only person to say this. What was actually said, if you were paying attention, is that CJ is MOST motivated when he has a chip on his shoulder such as not being the starter, and he plays better in that role. That's not to say he doesn't try or run hard when he is the starter, just that his motivation isn't the same.

underrated29
01-07-2016, 10:37 PM
Zweems did. His last sentence. Something along the lines of he runs harder because Gary kubiak put this chip on his shoulder because he is not the super duper starter anymore....

If that's not what he meant then I have no clue what the hell you guys are even arguing?

underrated29
01-07-2016, 10:40 PM
You added more to it.

So as you just said, CJ runs harder now because he is not the starter. His motivation is not the same.
This is fukkin stupid. He is a grown ass man and a professional. If his motivation is not as strong because he doesn't get the first reps then he would have no business being in the league....that's guys like Keary kolbert. Sorry but CJ runs just as hard when he starts vs not. It's a stupid idea and if you really believe I will not take you seriously when you post about players any longer