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Denver Native (Carol)
10-07-2013, 01:03 PM
ARLINGTON, Texas — Raise your hands, Broncos fans, if you thought from 2009 until halfway through 2012 that Knowshon Moreno was a first-round bust.

One, two, three, all of Denver. State of Colorado. Entire Rocky Mountain region.

This is why the silliest, stupidest, most irrelevant exercise in the NFL is when teams are given draft grades immediately upon completion.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24254052/broncos-briefs-knowshon-moreno-regains-his-burst-leaves

BroncoWave
10-07-2013, 01:04 PM
Good article. Moreno looks like every bit of a first round pick right now. It took a while to get here, but he is here. I really hope we give him a new contract this offseason.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-07-2013, 01:04 PM
also, from same article which contains other things:


Key players injured. His defense physically tattered, Broncos owner Pat Bowlen walked directly up to cornerback Champ Bailey after the high-scoring victory Sunday.

The conversation was private, but it doesn't take an owner to see Denver's defense needs Bailey back in the worst way.

Before fretting too much about the defensive injuries, there is a good chance Bailey, the Broncos' 12-time Pro Bowl cornerback, will return for the game Sunday against Jacksonville. And there is only one more game left in Von Miller's suspension.

Help is needed after Denver's defense lost three starters to first-half injuries. Cornerback Chris Harris (concussion), linebacker Wesley Woodyard (neck, shoulder) and defensive end Robert Ayers (left shoulder) didn't play in the second half, when the Cowboys scored 28 points.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24254052/broncos-briefs-knowshon-moreno-regains-his-burst-leaves

jhns
10-07-2013, 01:12 PM
also, from same article which contains other things:



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_24254052/broncos-briefs-knowshon-moreno-regains-his-burst-leaves

If Bailey needs it, this is a great week for him to sit back and recover a little more. Get healthy for the next game, which will be one he is actually needed in.

As for Moreno, he has been a great surprise. I've been a hater and he is shutting me up. Hope he keeps it up.

Buff
10-07-2013, 01:42 PM
Lesean McCoy isn't a huge fan.

LTC Pain
10-07-2013, 03:27 PM
Good article. Moreno looks like every bit of a first round pick right now. It took a while to get here, but he is here. I really hope we give him a new contract this offseason.

I agree 100% Then let Moreno, Hillman and Ball battle it out in training camp. And we also have CJ Andersen applying pressure. We sign Moreno and I don't see the Broncos sniffing a RB in the 2014 draft. Grab a couple of UDFAs and we are in good RB shape :)

Ziggy
10-07-2013, 03:33 PM
Moreno is a solid starter, but he isn't a difference maker. I wouldn't mind the Broncos re-signing him, but not at a high price. He's starting because he's the best blocking back on the roster. He's not going to take one to the house, or even make many people miss. He's a serviceable back who's solid all around. I'd still like to see the Broncos search for a difference maker via the draft or free agency. CJ Anderson may be that guy, but who knows whether or not he will get a chance to show it this season.

slim
10-07-2013, 03:35 PM
:bighoss:

CoachChaz
10-07-2013, 03:55 PM
Moreno is a solid starter, but he isn't a difference maker. I wouldn't mind the Broncos re-signing him, but not at a high price. He's starting because he's the best blocking back on the roster. He's not going to take one to the house, or even make many people miss. He's a serviceable back who's solid all around. I'd still like to see the Broncos search for a difference maker via the draft or free agency. CJ Anderson may be that guy, but who knows whether or not he will get a chance to show it this season.

Just out of curiosity...how many "difference makers" do we think this team can afford?

No one will ever be a 1500 yard back in this offense, but Moreno is on pace for 1000 yards and 10+ TDs at 5 ypc. To me...that makes a difference.

silkamilkamonico
10-07-2013, 03:58 PM
Moreno is a solid starter, but he isn't a difference maker. I wouldn't mind the Broncos re-signing him, but not at a high price. He's starting because he's the best blocking back on the roster. He's not going to take one to the house, or even make many people miss. He's a serviceable back who's solid all around. I'd still like to see the Broncos search for a difference maker via the draft or free agency. CJ Anderson may be that guy, but who knows whether or not he will get a chance to show it this season.

I think Knowshon's really a good fit for this offense. Finding a difference maker would be tough because their #1 priority would have to be to protect Manning.

Northman
10-07-2013, 04:21 PM
Im loving what im seeing from Moreno so far even dating back to late last year. His decision making just looks better, he isnt running up the Oline's ass, he is picking a lane and jetting through with power and determination. I already knew he good at catching the ball out of the backfield and he has yet to disappoint in that regard. I agree with Chaz, i dont need Knowmo to be a Adrian Peterson. The offense doesnt really need one but we will need KnowMo much more as the colder weather starts to roll in. I just want Moreno to stay healthy. Thats all i ask.

wayninja
10-07-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm not ready to give up on him being a bust.

Joker56
10-07-2013, 04:22 PM
We are not a run oriented team ...
So why do we need more expensive new running backs ?

Broncolingus
10-07-2013, 04:36 PM
...the only issue I've ever had with him has been his ability to stay healthy and contribute...

...GREAT job and stay healthy Knowshon!

Oh, and **** you too, LeSean McCoy!

cmc0605
10-07-2013, 04:47 PM
I would never have raised my hand...

"Anti-Moreno" was simply a religion, one repeatedly based on incoherent arguments that he got hurt once in a while, or never became Adrian Peterson when running against 18-man fronts when we played with Tebow, even though he was always a solid 4 ypc type and a good receiver. He showed flashes before, but ever since McGahee went down, he showed what I fully expected. The surprising thing was that people were surprised.

wayninja
10-07-2013, 04:54 PM
I never have any doubts about what I can prove in retrospect.

Slick
10-07-2013, 05:00 PM
Just out of curiosity...how many "difference makers" do we think this team can afford?

No one will ever be a 1500 yard back in this offense, but Moreno is on pace for 1000 yards and 10+ TDs at 5 ypc. To me...that makes a difference.
Great post Coach. Selfishly I would love to have a 1500 yard back but your post brings me back to reality.

He's playing really well. His vision is much improved, like North said, he's not running into his lineman, showing patience and running with a little more burst but a lot more attitude this year.

He's kept Peyton from getting creamed several times too. I never thought I'd say this about him but I'm damn glad we have him. He's one of the MVP'S on offense. Ball and Hillman combined aren't as good as Knowshon right now.

I'd like to see him keep his feet a little more though, mainly because I don't want to see him get hurt.

Buff
10-07-2013, 05:14 PM
Just out of curiosity...how many "difference makers" do we think this team can afford?

No one will ever be a 1500 yard back in this offense, but Moreno is on pace for 1000 yards and 10+ TDs at 5 ypc. To me...that makes a difference.

For me, I need my starting NFL RB to be a threat to take it to the house any time they touch the ball. Granted, not every effective NFL RB fits that criteria, but if I'm an NFL GM, speed, vision, and durability are the three most important factors. For his first couple years in the league, Moreno exhibited none of the above. Over the last two seasons his vision, elusiveness and durability have improved greatly. But he still lacks the speed to ever be in the top flight of NFL backs.

BroncoWave
10-07-2013, 05:16 PM
For me, I need my starting NFL RB to be a threat to take it to the house any time they touch the ball. Granted, not every effective NFL RB fits that criteria, but if I'm an NFL GM, speed, vision, and durability are the three most important factors. For his first couple years in the league, Moreno exhibited none of the above. Over the last two seasons his vision, elusiveness and durability have improved greatly. But he still lacks the speed to ever be in the top flight of NFL backs.

He missed 3 games combined in his first 2 seasons. Seems durable enough to me at the RB position.

Joel
10-07-2013, 07:18 PM
Moreno is a solid starter, but he isn't a difference maker. I wouldn't mind the Broncos re-signing him, but not at a high price. He's starting because he's the best blocking back on the roster. He's not going to take one to the house, or even make many people miss. He's a serviceable back who's solid all around. I'd still like to see the Broncos search for a difference maker via the draft or free agency. CJ Anderson may be that guy, but who knows whether or not he will get a chance to show it this season.
Are you sure you're thinking of THIS years Moreno? He was a difference maker yesterday, and key contributor on multiple TD drives, breaking tackles and keeping his balance after hits to get second effort first downs more times than I can count. He took a couple to the house from 20 yards out earlier this year, in the season opener against Baltimore, IIRC. It's amazing what good blocking across the board can do.

Put it this way: If Ball and Hillman blocked and caught as well as Moreno (they don't, but for sake of argument,) he'd still have a much higher rushing average: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2013.htm


No.


Age
Pos
G
GS
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
Y/G
A/G


27
Knowshon Moreno (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00.htm)
26
RB
5
5
65
331
4
25
5.1
66.2
13.0


38
Montee Ball (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BallMo00.htm)
23

5
0
40
124
0
12
3.1
24.8
8.0


21
Ronnie Hillman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm)
22

5
0
32
137
1
19
4.3
27.4
6.4


Yet the most interesting things in that article had nothing to do with Moreno. Bowlens one-on-one postgame discussion with Champ is one.

Another is the explanation of why Ayers was in a sling after the game: He had a dislocated shoulder that was popped back in before he briefly returned to post another sack. As someone who's had his shoulder dislocated I know that HURTS, and, Lethal Weapon movies aside, it's not all hunky dorry once reinserted (it's also prone to future dislocation because the socket's loosened, though in my case it frequently came back out because it initially slipped PARTIALLY back in on its own, but was never FULLY reinserted until it popped out and refused to go back—15 years later.)

Wares 115 sacks are impressive; Clark allowing him NONE is moreso. We already knew he played so well Ware finally gave up and switched to Franklins side (where his luck was no better,) and that the line allowed no sacks on Manning, but combined with that and giving Moreno good blocking so he didn't have to dodge guys in our backfield (instead having reliable surge for the 1 yd that tied the game at 48) they played a VERY good game against a tough front seven. Honestly, I'd give the game ball to the line yesterday.

Slick
10-07-2013, 08:02 PM
Are you sure you're thinking of THIS years Moreno? He was a difference maker yesterday, and key contributor on multiple TD drives, breaking tackles and keeping his balance after hits to get second effort first downs more times than I can count. He took a couple to the house from 20 yards out earlier this year, in the season opener against Baltimore, IIRC. It's amazing what good blocking across the board can do.

Put it this way: If Ball and Hillman blocked and caught as well as Moreno (they don't, but for sake of argument,) he'd still have a much higher rushing average: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2013.htm


No.


Age
Pos
G
GS
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
Y/G
A/G


27
Knowshon Moreno (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoreKn00.htm)
26
RB
5
5
65
331
4
25
5.1
66.2
13.0


38
Montee Ball (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BallMo00.htm)
23

5
0
40
124
0
12
3.1
24.8
8.0


21
Ronnie Hillman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm)
22

5
0
32
137
1
19
4.3
27.4
6.4


Yet the most interesting things in that article had nothing to do with Moreno. Bowlens one-on-one postgame discussion with Champ is one.

Another is the explanation of why Ayers was in a sling after the game: He had a dislocated shoulder that was popped back in before he briefly returned to post another sack. As someone who's had his shoulder dislocated I know that HURTS, and, Lethal Weapon movies aside, it's not all hunky dorry once reinserted (it's also prone to future dislocation because the socket's loosened, though in my case it frequently came back out because it initially slipped PARTIALLY back in on its own, but was never FULLY reinserted until it popped out and refused to go back—15 years later.)

Wares 115 sacks are impressive; Clark allowing him NONE is moreso. We already knew he played so well Ware finally gave up and switched to Franklins side (where his luck was no better,) and that the line allowed no sacks on Manning, but combined with that and giving Moreno good blocking so he didn't have to dodge guys in our backfield (instead having reliable surge for the 1 yd that tied the game at 48) they played a VERY good game against a tough front seven. Honestly, I'd give the game ball to the line yesterday.

Crazy to think that Clark frustrated Ware so much that he tried Franklyn's side in the second half. The line played great yesterday. Didn't hurt that Ware was not 100% either.

CoachChaz
10-07-2013, 08:23 PM
Just out of curiosity...how many "difference makers" do we think this team can afford?

No one will ever be a 1500 yard back in this offense, but Moreno is on pace for 1000 yards and 10+ TDs at 5 ypc. To me...that makes a difference.

For me, I need my starting NFL RB to be a threat to take it to the house any time they touch the ball. Granted, not every effective NFL RB fits that criteria, but if I'm an NFL GM, speed, vision, and durability are the three most important factors. For his first couple years in the league, Moreno exhibited none of the above. Over the last two seasons his vision, elusiveness and durability have improved greatly. But he still lacks the speed to ever be in the top flight of NFL backs.

Fair enough. Which elite backs possess all of those characteristics? AP, McCoy, maybe Foster...then who? In a 32 team league I came up with three starting running backs that fit those standards.

Dzone
10-07-2013, 09:18 PM
Driving home, listening to foxsports radio. Some dude actually was making a really big deal about the only way to stop Denver is to stop Moreno. Because Moreno is too much of a running threat and it keeps linebackers tight. He said if you take away the threat of run, then you can shut down manning. Not sayng I agree, but that was his opinion and he ranted for 15 minutes

Cugel
10-07-2013, 09:23 PM
Lesean McCoy isn't a huge fan.

McCoy can tweet that "Knowshon sux" all day. But the Broncos kicked his ass. And Knowshon was a part of that.

Broncos beat up the Eagles, stole their lunch money and then sent them home crying.

Sorry Lesean. You can quit your whining any time now. :coffee:

Ravage!!!
10-07-2013, 09:27 PM
I've pretty much expressed my disappointment in Moreno over the years. He's playing VERY good football and truly hope he continues. But he's really not a game breaker, and not a guy that truly gives a threat of "taking it to the house" on any play outside 25-30 yrds. But if he continues to make plays as he did at the end of the game, pushing 6 yrsd with people hanging onto him to get that IMPORTANT 1st down, then he's going to earn a spot in my heart.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2013, 09:30 PM
Driving home, listening to foxsports radio. Some dude actually was making a really big deal about the only way to stop Denver is to stop Moreno. Because Moreno is too much of a running threat and it keeps linebackers tight. He said if you take away the threat of run, then you can shut down manning. Not sayng I agree, but that was his opinion and he ranted for 15 minutes

Has to be Moreno's brother.

BroncoWave
10-07-2013, 09:31 PM
I've pretty much expressed my disappointment in Moreno over the years. He's playing VERY good football and truly hope he continues. But he's really not a game breaker, and not a guy that truly gives a threat of "taking it to the house" on any play outside 25-30 yrds. But if he continues to make plays as he did at the end of the game, pushing 6 yrsd with people hanging onto him to get that IMPORTANT 1st down, then he's going to earn a spot in my heart.

As others have said, the salary cap simply doesn't allow for a team to have gamebreaking playmakers at every positions. Given all the gambreakers we have on offense, I am more than happy with the role Moreno has carved out. He's no AP or Foster, but he has been great in the passing game and is churning out tough runs. Couldn't ask for a much better fit for this offense at the RB position. Seems like every time we call on him for a big first down he delivers. That shoestring catch on 3rd and 10 late in the game when we were down 3 might have been the most important play of the game. I don't think we win if we wind up having to punt there.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2013, 09:40 PM
Fair enough. Which elite backs possess all of those characteristics? AP, McCoy, maybe Foster...then who? In a 32 team league I came up with three starting running backs that fit those standards.

Who can take it to the house on any play? There are much more than that Forte, Rice and Charles are easily three more that do that. Buffalo has two in Jackson and Spiller. Jackson in Atlanta, Lynch in Seattle, and Foster in Houston. Reggie Bush is another. Chris Johnson obviously has the speed.

Hawgdriver
10-07-2013, 09:43 PM
He's not a difference maker . . . He's starting because he's the best blocking back on the roster.

I am not saying you are wrong. I get what you're saying and I pretty much agree with that.

I'm just saying look at the Bronco's overall offensive production, and look at who is playing the most during those particular snaps, the ones with the highest yards per play. If that's not a difference maker, I'm not sure what difference maker means.

Ravage!!!
10-07-2013, 09:44 PM
As others have said, the salary cap simply doesn't allow for a team to have gamebreaking playmakers at every positions. Given all the gambreakers we have on offense, I am more than happy with the role Moreno has carved out. He's no AP or Foster, but he has been great in the passing game and is churning out tough runs. Couldn't ask for a much better fit for this offense at the RB position. Seems like every time we call on him for a big first down he delivers. That shoestring catch on 3rd and 10 late in the game when we were down 3 might have been the most important play of the game. I don't think we win if we wind up having to punt there.

Thats silly. Why do teams continue to draft RBs if their "salary cap" doesn't allow it? Please. Of course it does. We drafted a RB THIS year to try and find someone to replace Moreno, and we most probably will do it again. RBs are the easiest position to fill with speed, adn with the new rookie salary cap, it allows teams to draft a stud and then let them walk after their rookie contract.

Also, he's been good, but he's not someone that can't easily be replaced. He doesn't "fit the offense" any better than a LOT of RBs would fit "this offense." What does he do that makes him "fit the offense" better than any decent RB would? He runs the ball through the hole...which is what you want your RB to do. But let's nto exaggerate the "couldn't ask for much better" silliness. Of course I could. Moreno is NOT fast, and speed KILLS in the NFL.

I've complimented Moreno a lot this year because he's the best we have, but I have to stop the exaggerations of his abilities when I read something liek that. It's over the top, and just not true.

Buff
10-07-2013, 09:49 PM
Fair enough. Which elite backs possess all of those characteristics? AP, McCoy, maybe Foster...then who? In a 32 team league I came up with three starting running backs that fit those standards.

Well, it's really hard to find that complete, all-around back with sprinter speed. So you point is well taken, I understand those guys don't grow on trees. But I guess my point is that Moreno is slow by NFL RB standards. In a perfect world I would like my RB to run in the 4.3x range - but if not I need them in the 4.4x range. I'd never spend a high 1st rd pick on a 4.5x guy like Knowshon.

That said, he's learned how to be an effective RB. But his ceiling is still too low from a roster construction standpoint.

BroncoWave
10-07-2013, 09:53 PM
Thats silly. Why do teams continue to draft RBs if their "salary cap" doesn't allow it? Please. Of course it does. We drafted a RB THIS year to try and find someone to replace Moreno, and we most probably will do it again. RBs are the easiest position to fill with speed, adn with the new rookie salary cap, it allows teams to draft a stud and then let them walk after their rookie contract.

WTF are you talking about? Where did I say the salary cap doesn't allow teams to draft running backs? I just said you can't afford to have a breakout playmaker at every position. Unless we get lucky and hit on one in the draft (which we have tried the last two years) we don't really have the money to sign an elite back. Which is fine since Moreno is good enough.


Also, he's been good, but he's not someone that can't easily be replaced. He doesn't "fit the offense" any better than a LOT of RBs would fit "this offense." What does he do that makes him "fit the offense" better than any decent RB would? He runs the ball through the hole...which is what you want your RB to do. But let's nto exaggerate the "couldn't ask for much better" silliness. Of course I could. Moreno is NOT fast, and speed KILLS in the NFL.

If Moreno is so "easily replaced" how has he stuck around for five years and survived multiple attempts to replace him? It's clearly not that easy or we would have done it by now. And the question you asked here is silly. His pass blocking is above average and his receiving ability is above average. He is definitely better in those areas than many other backs in this league. And that's what makes him a great fit for the offense. He also has the built-in advantage of knowing this offense, something a replacement back would be behind on.


I've complimented Moreno a lot this year because he's the best we have, but I have to stop the exaggerations of his abilities when I read something liek that. It's over the top, and just not true.

Where have I exaggerated? I said we couldn't ask for a much better fit. I didn't say we couldn't ask for a much better talent, because obviously we could. But in terms of how his skillset fits our offense, it fits it pretty damn well. I don't see why you take such offense to people saying this. No one is saying he is elite, just that his skills fit this offense really well. Not sure how you can deny that.

Joel
10-07-2013, 09:56 PM
Driving home, listening to foxsports radio. Some dude actually was making a really big deal about the only way to stop Denver is to stop Moreno. Because Moreno is too much of a running threat and it keeps linebackers tight. He said if you take away the threat of run, then you can shut down manning. Not sayng I agree, but that was his opinion and he ranted for 15 minutes
Offense thrives on the versatility to keep defense guessing, so if it's missing either half of its game the D has it right where they want it. Doesn't matter if it's pinning their ears back and ignoring the run to charge the QB while DBs play Prevent with a fourth quarter lead, or ignoring the pass and stuffing the run when opponents are milking the clock with a slim lead late. We all know that, but sometimes it's less obvious.

Like, say, when the starting RB is also the only one who pass blocks. Many people think Hillman or Anderson run better than Moreno (though statisticians don't,) and we didn't spend a 2nd round pick on Ball because we needed a bench warmer, but if we put one of them in because we decide Moreno's not doing it, where does that leave Manning on blitzes? The thing that really annoyed me about our backs after Mike Anderson and before McGahee was that we always had one guy who could run but not block/catch and another who could block/catch but not run.

Put yourself on defense when you see a guy who runs well but can't pass block come in on 1st and 10 or 3rd and 3: What playcall do you expect? How 'bout when a guy who pass blocks but can't run replaces him on 1st and 10 or 3rd and 7? How often do we pass when Montee Ball plays? Now, Moreno comes in on 3rd and 7, the D sends extra blitzers, they blow past Moreno—and he zips downfield for a 15 yard run. Or he comes in on 3rd and 3, the stack the box to stop the run, and Manning finds Welker for 20 yards.

Shut down Moreno and all that changes; I'm genuinely not sure which (if any) back could pick up the blitz if he didn't, and Hillman and Balls inconsistent running don't inspire me to lean on them, especially in the 4th quarter. We tried that with Hillman in our last playoff game and, while he did get us one first down, after that his average was next to nothing and we had to punt (though if we could play Prevent against a bad offense down a TD on their own 20 with 0:40 left it still wouldn't have mattered.)

Bottom line is Knowshon's a big asset in all phases of our offense; he didn't climb the depth chart to the starting job by default: He earned it. :salute:

Simple Jaded
10-07-2013, 10:58 PM
So typical.