Shaun Phillips is quietly 5th in the NFL in sacks at 5.5

[BroncoWave]

He appears well on his way to a double-digit sack season, especially with Von Miller on the way back to take pressure off of him. By comparison, the guy he replaced only has 3 sacks so far for Baltimore this season. I think it's safe to say that this signing is working out pretty well for us so far. While our pass rush as been weak at times, I don't think it's anything that would have looked much if any better if we had Doom instead of Phillips. I think losing Miller is hurting it far worse.

[Zweems56]

He appears well on his way to a double-digit sack season, especially with Von Miller on the way back to take pressure off of him. By comparison, the guy he replaced only has 3 sacks so far for Baltimore this season. I think it's safe to say that this signing is working out pretty well for us so far. While our pass rush as been weak at times, I don't think it's anything that would have looked much if any better if we had Doom instead of Phillips. I think losing Miller is hurting it far worse.

I agree with all of this.

[jhns]

You are ignoring things like consistent pressure and how defenses/offenses play these guys. Elvis is twice the player Phillips is. It's amazing how the absense of Miller alone takes this defense from top 5 in evety category last season to a terrible defense this season. This site claims DRC and Phillips are better than Bailey and Elvis, so is Miller really the only player who made this defense good last season?

[BroncoWave]

You are ignoring things like consistent pressure and how defenses play these guys. Elvis is twice the player Phillips is. It's amazing how the absense of Miller alone takes this defense from top 5 in evety category last season to a terrible defense this season. This site claims DRC and Phillips are better than Bailey and Elvis, so is Miller really the only player who made this defense good last season?

:lol: This isn't and never has been true.

[jhns]

:lol: This isn't and never has been true.

According to you. The defense has clearly lost a LOT from last season while people on thise site claim the guys who were lost have been replaced by better players. Again, your claim seems to be that Miller alone takes a defense from bottom of the league to top 5 in every category. Kind of silly.

[topscribe]

You are ignoring things like consistent pressure and how defenses play these guys. Elvis is twice the player Phillips is. It's amazing how the absense of Miller alone takes this defense from top 5 in evety category last season to a terrible defense this season. This site claims DRC and Phillips are better than Bailey and Elvis, so is Miller really the only player who made this defense good last season?
Maybe Elvis is consistently a little better than Phillips as a pass rusher,
although Phillips has already proven himself in that area. But twice the
player? No, I think Phillips may be a better all-around player than Elvis.
Phillips can do a lot of things, play a lot of positions, and well. Personally,
the only reason I might prefer Elvis at this stage is Phillips' age. But all
things being equal, I think it was ultimately a win-win for the Broncos.
.

[jhns]

Maybe Elvis is consistently a little better than Phillips as a pass rusher,
although Phillips has already proven himself in that area. But twice the
player? No, I think Phillips may be a better all-around player than Elvis.
Phillips can do a lot of things, play a lot of positions, and well. Personally,
the only reason I might prefer Elvis at this stage is Phillips' age. But all
things being equal, I think it was ultimately a win-win for the Broncos.
.

Top 5 in every category to one of the leagues worst defenses. The results speak for themselves.

[BroncoWave]

According to you. The defense has clearly lost a LOT from last season while people on thise site claim the guys who were lost have been replaced by better players. Again, your claim seems to be that Miller alone takes a defense from bottom of the league to top 5 in every category. Kind of silly.

I didn't imply anything of the sort.

[underrated29]

I actually agree with jhns here....Not sure what that means. Hell froze?

In any event. We can clearly see the difference in pass pressure from doom to phillips. Its a night and day difference. Even going back to the days with doom but before miller. If someone wants to argue that doom would have let romo sit in the pocket for 7-8 seconds on several occasions last night they might need to check some things.

[topscribe]

Top 5 in every category to one of the leagues worst defenses. The results speak for themselves.
That's a pretty shallow analysis. Until this last week, the total yards given up
in pass defense belied the actual performance of the defensive unit, if you
would just look up the yards per play given up. The opposing teams passed
a lot against the Broncos because they were behind and because Denver
made a habit of scoring so quickly. And I believe the Broncos are still number
one against the run.

But, yes, Von's absence makes a tremendous difference in the defense.
Not only will there be a dramatic upgrade at his position, but all the sudden
other pass rushers will get "better" because of his presence on the field.
Once they get Von and Champ back, and Woody, Trevathan, Duke, and
Ayers healthy again, it will again be a top defense. I have absolutely no
doubt about that.
.

[SR]

You are ignoring things like consistent pressure and how defenses/offenses play these guys. Elvis is twice the player Phillips is. It's amazing how the absense of Miller alone takes this defense from top 5 in evety category last season to a terrible defense this season. This site claims DRC and Phillips are better than Bailey and Elvis, so is Miller really the only player who made this defense good last season?

I haven't seen a single person say DRC and Phillips are better than Champ and Elvis. Not once.

[slim]

:strawman:

[SR]

Top 5 in every category to one of the leagues worst defenses. The results speak for themselves.

5-0

[slim]

The defense hasn't been good against the pass and they are missing their best pass rusher and best CB.

I'm not sure why this is shocking to anyone.

[jhns]

That's a pretty shallow analysis. Until this last week, the total yards given up
in pass defense belied the actual performance of the defensive unit, if you
would just look up the yards per play given up. The opposing teams passed
a lot against the Broncos because they were behind and because Denver
made a habit of scoring so quickly. And I believe the Broncos are still number
one against the run.

But, yes, Von's absence makes a tremendous difference in the defense.
Not only will there be a dramatic upgrade at his position, but all the sudden
other pass rushers will get "better" because of his presence on the field.
Once they get Von and Champ back, and Woody, Trevathan, Duke, and
Ayers healthy again, it will again be a top defense. I have absolutely no
doubt about that.
.


The defense was 20th in pass D before the Dallas game. Last seasons defense had to deal with the exact same thing. This team just broke a long streak of beating teams by at least a TD.

Bailey, Miller, and Doom are all being missed. None of them have been replaced. This forum would have you believe that 2/3 of them were replaced. Miller alone doesn't take this from one of the leagues worst defenses to top 5 in every category. It won't take long to prove how much Elvis is missed. Bailey and Miller will both be back. DRC and Nacho have upgraded other areas, along with a slightly better DT rotation.

Phillips isn't close to Doom. Never has been, never will be.

[jhns]

I haven't seen a single person say DRC and Phillips are better than Champ and Elvis. Not once.

I see multiple people making the Phillips claim here and many more making the Bailey claim in multiple other threads. Of course, this requires that lost art of reading. Maybe you'll aquire that skill someday.

[jhns]

5-0

Vs our terrible 2012 record?

[slim]

I see multiple people making the Phillips claim here and many more making the Bailey claim in multiple other threads. Of course, this requires that lost art of reading. Maybe you'll aquire that skill someday.

It seems to me that you are the one that needs to acquire that skill.

I see people saying that DRC is an upgrade over Porter/Carter and that Philips is roughly equal to Doom. I think both of those are true and based on current production any reasonable person would have to agree.

[SR]

I see multiple people making the Phillips claim here and many more making the Bailey claim in multiple other threads. Of course, this requires that lost art of reading. Maybe you'll aquire that skill someday.

Why don't you use your fantastic internet skills and find some quotes where anyone said DRC and Phillips are better than Elvis and Champ, slick.

[SR]

Vs our terrible 2012 record?

What was the record after five games last year?

[topscribe]

The defense was 20th in pass D before the Dallas game. Last seasons defense had to deal with the exact same thing. This team just broke a long streak of beating teams by at least a TD.

Bailey, Miller, and Doom are all being missed. None of them have been replaced. This forum would have you believe that 2/3 of them were replaced. Miller alone doesn't take this from one of the leagues worst defenses to top 5 in every category. It won't take long to prove how much Elvis is missed. Bailey and Miller will both be back. DRC and Nacho have upgraded other areas, along with a slightly better DT rotation.

Phillips isn't close to Doom. Never has been, never will be.
I don't disagree with everything you said here. Except that last year's
defense had Von and Champ . . . the whole year. Yes, they had Dumervil,
too, but the point is, they had Von and Champ.

And you still are going by the total yards given up, while ignoring the total
plays against them. Against the Ravens, Giants, Raiders, and Eagles, the
Broncos gave up, in yards, per completed pass, 5.19, 8.47, 9.06, and 10.94,
respectively, while gaining 28.39, 16.58, 20.98, and 25.90. I don't know off
the top where that ranks in the league, but total yards alone have always
been a poor means of analysis.
.

[jhns]

It seems to me that you are the one that needs to acquire that skill.

I see people saying that DRC is an upgrade over Porter/Carter and that Philips is roughly equal to Doom. I think both of those are true and based on current production any reasonable person would have to agree.

There are threads about moving Bailey to safety and others about giving DRC the #1 spot when he returns. People argued that Bailey needs to restructure or move on because he has lost too much.

They haven't been close to being replaced. If they are playing as well as the guys they replaced, it would mean those guys were replaced. So the as well or better argument is a lame game of semantics. Miller alone isn't the difference between top 5 and one of the worst in the league.

I haven't seen any of the DRC arguments involve Porter or Carter in recent weeks. Granted, none of them will include Bailey after this last game.

[SR]

There are threads about moving Bailey to safety and others about giving DRC the #1 spot when he returns. People argued that Bailey needs to restructure or move on because he has lost too much. They haven't been close to being replaced. If they are playing as well as the guys they replaced, it would mean those guys were replaced. So the as well or better argument is a lame game of semantics. Miller alone isn't the difference between top 5 and one of the worst in the league. I haven't seen any of the DRC arguments involve Porter or Carter in recent weeks. Granted, none of them will include Bailey after this last game.

The people that say that are maybe two or three in number and the exception, not the norm.

[topscribe]

I see multiple people making the Phillips claim here and many more making the Bailey claim in multiple other threads. Of course, this requires that lost art of reading. Maybe you'll aquire that skill someday.
Lol, same old caustic jhns. Just can't resist the ad hominem attacks.
.

[jhns]

I don't disagree with everything you said here. Except that last year's
defense had Von and Champ . . . the whole year. Yes, they had Dumervil,
too, but the point is, they had Von and Champ.

And you still are going by the total yards given up, while ignoring the total
plays against them. Against the Ravens, Giants, Raiders, and Eagles, the
Broncos gave up, in yards, per completed pass, 5.19, 8.47, 9.06, and 10.94,
respectively, while gaining 28.39, 16.58, 20.98, and 25.90. I don't know off
the top where that ranks in the league, but total yards alone have always
been a poor means of analysis.
.

It wasn't just in total yards. They are also doing poorly in points given up.

Y/A last season = 6.4

Y/A this season = 8.8

Opposing QBR last season = 79.4

Opposing QBR this season = 92.3

[jhns]

Lol, same old caustic jhns. Just can't resist the ad hominem attacks.
.

Poor whittle top.

[topscribe]

It wasn't just in total yards. They are also doing poorly in points given up.

Y/A last season = 6.4

Y/A this season = 8.8

Opposing QBR last season = 79.4

Opposing QBR this season = 92.3

Last season: Dumervil, Miller, Bailey present.
This season: Dumervil, Miller, Bailey absent.

Frankly, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.



Poor whittle top.
Case in point. :coffee:
.

[Northman]

I actually agree with jhns here....Not sure what that means. Hell froze?

In any event. We can clearly see the difference in pass pressure from doom to phillips. Its a night and day difference. Even going back to the days with doom but before miller. If someone wants to argue that doom would have let romo sit in the pocket for 7-8 seconds on several occasions last night they might need to check some things.


Agreed. I really dont want to get into an old debate that will go nowhere and end up in a circle jerk but I do think Doom is the better player. But, with that said im glad that Phillips still has something left in the tank and he has at least been productive.

[topscribe]

Agreed. I really dont want to get into an old debate that will go nowhere and end up in a circle jerk but I do think Doom is the better player. But, with that said im glad that Phillips still has something left in the tank and he has at least been productive.
Totally reasonable in both counts. It's only opinion on either side. To me, in
the long run, doesn't really matter who is the better player. I just believe the
Broncos came out of it smelling like a rose. Bottom line? 5-0.
.

[Ziggy]

I actually agree with jhns here....Not sure what that means. Hell froze?

In any event. We can clearly see the difference in pass pressure from doom to phillips. Its a night and day difference. Even going back to the days with doom but before miller. If someone wants to argue that doom would have let romo sit in the pocket for 7-8 seconds on several occasions last night they might need to check some things.

I'm not saying that Doom is better than Phillips but if you want to make the point that Romo wouldn't have had all day in the pocket with Doom, you might want to go back and watch the playoff game again last year with Flacco sitting in the pocket all day. That was with Von on the field as well.

[Ziggy]

Doom is the better pure pass rusher. Phillips is better against the run. For the price we're paying Phillips compared to what we would have been paying Doom, I'll take Phillips. The difference will probably mean keeping a player like Woodyard, Clady, Holliday, or DRC on this roster long term.

[BroncoWave]

Doom is the better pure pass rusher. Phillips is better against the run. For the price we're paying Phillips compared to what we would have been paying Doom, I'll take Phillips. The difference will probably mean keeping a player like Woodyard, Clady, Holliday, or DRC on this roster long term.

Exactly. People who complain about us losing Doom never really think about this. It's not always about keeping the better player. Yeah, Doom probably is a little better than Phillips. But if Doom's contract had kept us from being able to sign, say, a Holliday or a DRC then give me Phillips every day of the week.

[topscribe]

Doom is the better pure pass rusher. Phillips is better against the run. For the price we're paying Phillips compared to what we would have been paying Doom, I'll take Phillips. The difference will probably mean keeping a player like Woodyard, Clady, Holliday, or DRC on this roster long term.
Very good point. It's going to take some bucks to keep those guys. And, as
good as Doom is, it seems the Ravens haven't been any better this year
for it. As even Phillips has said in almost every one of his interviews, it's a
team game.
.

[jhns]

Maybe Elvis is consistently a little better than Phillips as a pass rusher,
although Phillips has already proven himself in that area. But twice the
player? No, I think Phillips may be a better all-around player than Elvis.
Phillips can do a lot of things, play a lot of positions, and well. Personally,
the only reason I might prefer Elvis at this stage is Phillips' age. But all
things being equal, I think it was ultimately a win-win for the Broncos.
.

This is what I'm arguing against Top. I don't know how that isn't clear. Considering this post from you, I have no idea why you are including Doom in that last reply to me. Phillips is the better player but missing Doom is part of the reason we are worse on defense. That doesn't really add up.

[topscribe]

This is what I'm arguing against Top. I don't know how that isn't clear. Considering this post from you, I have no idea why you are including Doom in that last reply to me. Phillips is the better player but missing Doom is part of the reason we are worse on defense. That doesn't really add up.
Lol, well, whatever. Have a good day. :wave:
.

[SR]

This is what I'm arguing against Top. I don't know how that isn't clear. Considering this post from you, I have no idea why you are including Doom in that last reply to me. Phillips is the better player but missing Doom is part of the reason we are worse on defense. That doesn't really add up.

No quotes? Can't find any?

[dogfish]

Lol, same old caustic jhns. Just can't resist the ad hominem attacks.
.

then don't feed the troll. . . you guys know better. . .

:tsk:

[SR]

then don't feed the troll. . . you guys know better. . . :tsk:

He just seems soooooooo hungry

[topscribe]

then don't feed the troll. . . you guys know better. . .

:tsk:
Maybe you don't realize it, but, in at least an indirect way, you just did. :nod:

[slim]

Dog, let's talk about Philips....just you and me.

[Ziggy]

Anyone been keeping an eye on Doom? He has a grand total of 3 sacks this season playing next to the best NT in the game and across from Suggs who has 7 sacks. I love Doom, but he's overpaid right now. Glad it's not the Broncos that are paying that check every week.

[Northman]

Anyone been keeping an eye on Doom? He has a grand total of 3 sacks this season playing next to the best NT in the game and across from Suggs who has 7 sacks. I love Doom, but he's overpaid right now. Glad it's not the Broncos that are paying that check every week.

Nah, he's not overpaid. Flacco is overpaid.

[Joker56]

OK
So our defense seem to be a little worse ... than last year...kool ..
But ...
but our offense seems to be running like just a bit .. a little bit better than last year ... ummmmm
sooooo
Welker...
JT
Moreno...
showing up like there was no tommorow..
and Decker
and DT
and Hollyday
and..
and...
and even Manning...

[DenBronx]

Miller alone doesnt make this defense a top 5 but he changes so many things and how teams will prepare for us. Adding in Miller with Phillips is going to cause way more pressure on the QB and make him have to release the ball quicker than he would have had to. This eases alot of pressure on the secondary, which is something we need right now.

Phillips has always been sort of underated to me. His stats speak for themselves and so does his play on the field. Dume was never really great at stopping the run or covering downfield when needed. Phillips provides a much more well rounded player than Dume. I think Dumes play the last couple of years wouldnt have been as good if Miller wasnt here.

This was the perfect replacement. Less money and probably better overall production. The other guy, Freeney is out for the season. Glad we didnt get Freeney or Abraham.

[dogfish]

Lol, same old caustic jhns. Just can't resist the ad hominem attacks.
.


Dog, let's talk about Philips....just you and me.

i think he's solid. . . we really need von back, though. . .

[jhns]

No quotes? Can't find any?

You just posted this in response to a post that had one of those quotes in it. Nicely done.

[SR]

You just posted this in response to a post that had one of those quotes in it. Nicely done.

Saying "I think he may be" equals de-facto to you? No ******* wonder you aren't getting it!

[TXBRONC]

i think he's solid. . . we really need von back, though. . .

Agreed he's been solid but Philips and the rest of the defense will be better once Miller gets back.

[jhns]

Saying "I think he may be" equals de-facto to you? No ******* wonder you aren't getting it!

That doesn't even make sense. Not that I expect anything different from you.


As for the Doom vs Phillips this year stuff. How about an actual breakdown of this season? Notice anyone missing from this list?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/10/02/signature-stats-pass-rushing-productivity/

[BroncoWave]

That doesn't even make sense. Not that I expect anything different from you.


As for the Doom vs Phillips this year stuff. How about an actual breakdown of this season? Notice anyone missing from this list?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/10/02/signature-stats-pass-rushing-productivity/

Except this doesn't really counter top's argument. He agreed that Doom is a better pass rusher, but that Phillips may be a better overall player. This is not an unreasonable stance to take.

[Joel]

Maybe Elvis is consistently a little better than Phillips as a pass rusher,
although Phillips has already proven himself in that area. But twice the
player? No, I think Phillips may be a better all-around player than Elvis.
Phillips can do a lot of things, play a lot of positions, and well. Personally,
the only reason I might prefer Elvis at this stage is Phillips' age. But all
things being equal, I think it was ultimately a win-win for the Broncos.
.
This. Doom's a great pass rusher, but was never better than adequate against the run, and well below average against the pass (not a huge deal for a RDE, but won't help him as an OLB any more than it did under McDumbass, sacks or no sacks.) Phillips, on the other hand, is good all around, and if his coverage skills are also less useful at DE, he's as stout a run stuffer as pass rusher.

DeMarco Murray is the best back the Cowboys have had in a while, maybe since Emmitt, and we shut him DOWN, even when Dallas was up 14-0 and had every reason to run. Except for the start of the third quarter they never trailed by so much running wasn't an option—except that our D MADE it a non-option. Before that we faced and beat the leagues #1 rushing offense a week after facing and beating the previous #1. The new rules obviate the need to run to establish the pass, but you're right, top: Much of why our passing D totals look so much worse than our rushing D totals is because the former plays a LOT more downs.

Phillips is a big part of our dominating run stuffing in addition to being a good pass rusher. But on the latter score, I believe he was ahead of Ayers on the depth chart until yesterdays injury, so being 5th in the league in sacks is impressive (even if Ayers has been relieving him, he's been on the field enough the stat's still pretty impressive.)

Ziggy also makes a good point: If the overall production is even close, the much lower COST that let us sign guys like DRC is more than worth letting Doom go after he screwed us with Faxgate. Faxgate is enough reason to let him go in itself, especially when we followed that with the biggest payday offer and he STILL left. That says it was only a matter of time; better now than when we need him (which we don't now—really.)

[SR]

That doesn't even make sense. Not that I expect anything different from you. As for the Doom vs Phillips this year stuff. How about an actual breakdown of this season? Notice anyone missing from this list? https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/10/02/signature-stats-pass-rushing-productivity/

In other words, I never saw him say as a matter of fact that "Shawn Phillips is better than Dumervil". Phillips is more well rounded than Doom. Doom is a better pure pass rusher than Phillips. Phillips gets paid SIGNIFICANTLY less than Dumervil and has nearly doubled Doom's sack total this year through five games. There are pros and cons to each player. I wouldn't say either is better than the other because each is better than the other in different areas and Phillips has been doing it a long time. That seems to be, at least to me, the general consensus amongst most of the posters here, not the opposite as you claim.

[jhns]

In other words, I never saw him say as a matter of fact that "Shawn Phillips is better than Dumervil". Phillips is more well rounded than Doom. Doom is a better pure pass rusher than Phillips. Phillips gets paid SIGNIFICANTLY less than Dumervil and has nearly doubled Doom's sack total this year through five games. There are pros and cons to each player. I wouldn't say either is better than the other because each is better than the other in different areas and Phillips has been doing it a long time. That seems to be, at least to me, the general consensus amongst most of the posters here, not the opposite as you claim.

He said Doom is a little better pass rusher and Phillips the better all around player. You claim no one said he is better. What the?

Phillips is half the player Dumervil is. Even with the rest of the front seven on that team, we were doubling Elvis in week one. Phillips doesn't get that respect. Doom was on the market for about an hour. How long was Phillips out there? I don't think the league agrees with any of you. They play Elvis different and didn't leave him on the open market.

[SR]

He said Doom is a little better pass rusher and Phillips the better all around player. You claim no one said he is better. What the? Phillips is half the player Dumervil is. Even with the rest of the front seven on that team, we were doubling Elvis in week one. Phillips doesn't get that respect. Doom was on the market for about an hour. How long was Phillips out there? I don't think the league agrees with any of you. They play Elvis different and didn't leave him on the open market.

Doom gets doubles because he's a monster pass rusher. Not a hard concept to grasp. Even if you interpret what he said as a matter of fact, he is still the very thin minority that believes that.

[Mike]

I liked Doom and appreciated him as a player. He is a very good pass rusher...at times. When he was on, he was on and it was virtually impossible to stop him. Other times he was virtually invisible. He literally disappeared in certain games and he wasn't as good against the run. I wish he were here still, but I am reserving judgement on the move until Denver gets their whole defense back.

I also think the Dallas games was an anomaly. Dallas was ready to play and the defense just looked unprepared as a unit. If they look that way against Indy in a couple of weeks then I will be concerned.

[Broncolingus]

I liked Doom and appreciated him as a player. He is a very good pass rusher...at times. When he was on, he was on and it was virtually impossible to stop him. Other times he was virtually invisible. He literally disappeared in certain games and he wasn't as good against the run. I wish he were here still, but I am reserving judgement on the move until Denver gets their whole defense back.

I also think the Dallas games was an anomaly. Dallas was ready to play and the defense just looked unprepared as a unit. If they look that way against Indy in a couple of weeks then I will be concerned.

Well said, Mike...

I'm usually most critical of the DL and front seven - of any team...

...but that's only because I think that group is a key element to winning in the post season.

Not saying that group needs to be like the 2000 Ravens every year, but just a solid group that can generally stop the run and can generate some consistent pressure on the QB.

I think one of the always top one or two keys in the NFL is the ability to pressure the QB...

JMO...

[TXBRONC]

I liked Doom and appreciated him as a player. He is a very good pass rusher...at times. When he was on, he was on and it was virtually impossible to stop him. Other times he was virtually invisible. He literally disappeared in certain games and he wasn't as good against the run. I wish he were here still, but I am reserving judgement on the move until Denver gets their whole defense back.

I also think the Dallas games was an anomaly. Dallas was ready to play and the defense just looked unprepared as a unit. If they look that way against Indy in a couple of weeks then I will be concerned.

I don't think Del Rio is going let his defense go onto the field unprepared. I think what happened was losing Woodyard, Ayers, and Harris all in the same game threw a monkey wrench in how they could defend the Cowboys.

[Joker56]

Ok the D looked and acted like "Crap"
Injuries did the damage ...
but ...
what won the game at the end ??????
the Defense ...
a lucky play..
a lucky Int..
also ... a "Great Play"
at the end the D ,somehow stepped up ...
i may be wrong...
this just my opinion...