Was Woodyard's hit on Pryor Legal?

[wayninja]

I can't quite understand the position of the League and the calls the refs make in games. By all outward appearance, I was expecting a flag on that play.

I know you 'lose some protections' if you run the football, but I still thought helmet-to-helmet was illegal?

What do you guys think? Was this a clean hit? A bad, but unintentional hit that should have been flagged?


POz-4XpwGxg

[BroncoWave]

I'm about to start rewatching the game. I will take a closer look at it to see.

[CoachChaz]

If that hit was illegal, then the hit on DT when he dropped the pass on the goal line should warrant a huge fine

[Ravage!!!]

Pryor was a running back on that play because he was running the ball. Inside the tackles, and within 1 yard of the LoS, there are no helmet to helmet illegal hits.

It was a good hit. Solid hit, and the ONLY way you can tackle a runner that is crouched over going through the line.

[Dreadnought]

Was it inside the tackle box? I think it might have been if we're thinking the same play. HTH hits are still legal inside the tackle box

[LTC Pain]

I can't quite understand the position of the League and the calls the refs make in games. By all outward appearance, I was expecting a flag on that play.

I know you 'lose some protections' if you run the football, but I still thought helmet-to-helmet was illegal?

What do you guys think? Was this a clean hit? A bad, but unintentional hit that should have been flagged?

Woodyard did not lead with his head nor did he target Pryor's head = good hit. Woodyard led with his shoulder. I thought there helmets making contact was a residual effect of the speed/violence of Woodyard's shoulder to Pryor's chest/chin area. No flag, no fine, no warning.

[wayninja]

It's not 100% clear, but it looks to me like it was out of the tackle box.

But even in the tackle box, why is HTH legal? I just don't understand the message the league is trying to send. If safety is paramount, how is this justified?

[BroncoWave]

I'm about to start rewatching the game. I will take a closer look at it to see.

Looks like you added in the video so nevermind! :lol:

[Dreadnought]

It's not 100% clear, but it looks to me like it was out of the tackle box.

But even in the tackle box, why is HTH legal? I just don't understand the message the league is trying to send. If safety is paramount, how is this justified?

I think because they are unavoidable in the box and within a yard - and mostly because they are not high velocity high speed hits the way a HTH on a sack or crossing route is

[VonDoom]

If that hit was illegal, then the hit on DT when he dropped the pass on the goal line should warrant a huge fine

Agreed with this. I didn't think the hit on Thomas was that bad, honestly, but the way they've been calling penalties this year, this absolutely should have been called. Would have led to one more TD too :2thumbs:

[Ravage!!!]

It's not 100% clear, but it looks to me like it was out of the tackle box.

But even in the tackle box, why is HTH legal? I just don't understand the message the league is trying to send. If safety is paramount, how is this justified?

Because how is a DT that startd down on all fours, head first fighting against a 300 lb lineman suppose to NOT hit a RB that is coming through the line...head first...without making contact helmet to helmet?

If they called a HTH hit in that area, it would be almost on every running play. At least the league understands that there are situations where it just can't be avoided.

[Ravage!!!]

In the video, you can see that our LB led with his shoulder, not his head.

[wayninja]

I think because they are unavoidable in the box and within a yard - and mostly because they are not high velocity high speed hits the way a HTH on a sack or crossing route is

Pryor has a concussion. Isn't that what they are trying to avoid?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, nor do I disagree with you, I'm just trying to clear the mud the league creates...

[Skinny]

If it was outside the tackle box it wasn't by much. Looks like he got hit right where the RT was standing at the snap.

[wayninja]

In the video, you can see that our LB led with his shoulder, not his head.

He still hits Pryor under the chin with the crown of his helmet. Does intention factor into it?

[wayninja]

Because how is a DT that startd down on all fours, head first fighting against a 300 lb lineman suppose to NOT hit a RB that is coming through the line...head first...without making contact helmet to helmet?

If they called a HTH hit in that area, it would be almost on every running play. At least the league understands that there are situations where it just can't be avoided.

Fair enough. I would argue that it could have easily been avoided in this play, however.

Dennis Allen agrees with you though:

"Asked whether the hit looked like an illegal helmet-to-helmet blow, Raiders coach Dennis Allen said he could not tell.

'Within the rules, it's inside the tackle box,' Allen said. 'But it was a pretty good hit.'"

[LawDog]

He still hits Pryor under the chin with the crown of his helmet. Does intention factor into it?

Look at 0:16-0:17 of the clip you posted, Woodyard does not use the crown of the helmet.

[wayninja]

Look at 0:16-0:17 of the clip you posted, Woodyard does not use the crown of the helmet.

That's what I'm looking at... the crown clearly hits pryor under the face-mask (on his left side). I can't explain why we see different things.

You can clearly see pryors head snap sideways with the contact

[LawDog]

That's what I'm looking at... the crown clearly hits pryor under the face-mask. I can't explain why we see different things.

Maybe you need to read the league's definition of "crown of the helmet".

[Ravage!!!]

He still hits Pryor under the chin with the crown of his helmet. Does intention factor into it?

He leads with the shoulder, jsut as the NFL wants a player to do. There is not way to eliminate contact with helmets, thats why they wear them. But Woodyard did not lead with his head. He went in and put his head in front of the runner, hitting with his shoulder pad first. I don't think you can ask more than that (although the NFL would like it to be paddy-cake). But if this hit is illegal, then there is no way to ask players to TRY and make a legal hit, as they would just give up.

Not to mention, as said before, if it was outside the tackle box, it wasn't by much. If QBs are going to run the ball, then get ready to be smacked.

I heard Phil Simms talking about just how fast DCs and defenses acclimate to changes in the NFL. He's saying that this "read option" offense is something that defenses are not only looking for, but basically saying PLEASE PLEASE run the option.

Its going to die about as fast as the Wildcat did.

[TXBRONC]

That was a legal hit. Pryor was outside the tackle box, we starting to duck, and it's seems clear to me Woodyard hit with his shoulder not his helmet. Also as Chaz pointed out if that's foul the hit D. Thomas is also definitely a foul.

[TXBRONC]

Woodyard did not lead with his head nor did he target Pryor's head = good hit. Woodyard led with his shoulder. I thought there helmets making contact was a residual effect of the speed/violence of Woodyard's shoulder to Pryor's chest/chin area. No flag, no fine, no warning.

Woodyard's hit the back Pryor's head with his shoulder pad.

[wayninja]

He leads with the shoulder, jsut as the NFL wants a player to do. There is not way to eliminate contact with helmets, thats why they wear them. But Woodyard did not lead with his head. He went in and put his head in front of the runner, hitting with his shoulder pad first. I don't think you can ask more than that (although the NFL would like it to be paddy-cake). But if this hit is illegal, then there is no way to ask players to TRY and make a legal hit, as they would just give up.

I've seen plenty of 'shoulder led' contact this season flagged. Again, I agree with you, I don't think Woodyard 'led' with his helmet, but HTH contact was made nonetheless. The whole 'lead with your shoulder' is kinda dumb when you think of the proximity of head to shoulder.


Not to mention, as said before, if it was outside the tackle box, it wasn't by much. If QBs are going to run the ball, then get ready to be smacked.

Dennis Allen seemed to think it was in the tackle box. I guess I just don't like having different rules for different situations. It annoys me as much as when I see signs saying 'Begin Fines double for speeding'. I mean, if you don't want people to speed, why not make the fine double all the time?


I heard Phil Simms talking about just how fast DCs and defenses acclimate to changes in the NFL. He's saying that this "read option" offense is something that defenses are not only looking for, but basically saying PLEASE PLEASE run the option.

Its going to die about as fast as the Wildcat did.

I don't think so. It's too powerful when the passing game is working to completely give up on. But it also depends on all the tweaking to the rules the league does too. Wish they'd just keep it simple.

[LawDog]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000247653/article/nfls-dean-blandino-reviews-new-crownofthehelmet-rule

[wayninja]

Maybe you need to read the league's definition of "crown of the helmet".

Well, I'll be happy for a citation, since I don't see an official league definition anywhere. Seems to me that 'crown' needs as much a definition as 'helmet'.

It's the top of the helmet. So in the sense that he doesn't hit pryror with the center-of-area point of the helmet, you are correct. In the looser sense that he uses the 'top' of his helmet, you aren't. In any event, I think that's splitting hairs. But splitting hairs is what we've been reduced to, I suppose.

[Ravage!!!]

I've seen plenty of 'shoulder led' contact this season flagged. Again, I agree with you, I don't think Woodyard 'led' with his helmet, but HTH contact was made nonetheless. The whole 'lead with your shoulder' is kinda dumb when you think of the proximity of head to shoulder.



Dennis Allen seemed to think it was in the tackle box. I guess I just don't like having different rules for different situations. It annoys me as much as when I see signs saying 'Begin Fines double for speeding'. I mean, if you don't want people to speed, why not make the fine double all the time?



I don't think so. It's too powerful when the passing game is working to completely give up on. But it also depends on all the tweaking to the rules the league does too. Wish they'd just keep it simple.

If you lead with your shoulder, you aren't using your head as a weapon. THAT is what they are trying to eliminate. You can't eliminate Helmet-to-helmet contact. They actually DO understand this. So if you show that you are making the PROPER attempt to lead with yoru shoulder, and the collision impact then causes the helmets to hit.... all is good (generally).


As far as the read-option. I think its becoming not nearly as effective as it was. Look how well it worked for the 49ers against both the Seahawks and the colts....and they were supposed to be the "elite" team with the Read-option.

Defensive players in the NFL are just TOO fast, and too smart, to run this inthe NFL for extended time. Not only are defenders able to keep the QB bottled up, they can force reads that the defense wants you to have (meaning, if they want the QB to keep the ball, they will give the read up front for him to keep it). Not only are DCs too smart for this, but defenders during the games are recognizing it soo much faster now. Did you see how fast LBs are closing in on Pryor last night? THe read-option is going to put QBs out of games. It's a passing league. I think the Read-option "fad" will die off very quickly.

[MOtorboat]

If it's the play I'm thinking of, they actually are supposed to start penalizing the runners for using their helmet, but I haven't seen it called yet.

[TXBRONC]

I've seen plenty of 'shoulder led' contact this season flagged. Again, I agree with you, I don't think Woodyard 'led' with his helmet, but HTH contact was made nonetheless. The whole 'lead with your shoulder' is kinda dumb when you think of the proximity of head to shoulder.



Dennis Allen seemed to think it was in the tackle box. I guess I just don't like having different rules for different situations. It annoys me as much as when I see signs saying 'Begin Fines double for speeding'. I mean, if you don't want people to speed, why not make the fine double all the time?



I don't think so. It's too powerful when the passing game is working to completely give up on. But it also depends on all the tweaking to the rules the league does too. Wish they'd just keep it simple.

You can't tell that's it Pyor's facemask hitting Woodyard's earhole?

[BroncoWave]

If it's the play I'm thinking of, they actually are supposed to start penalizing the runners for using their helmet, but I haven't seen it called yet.

They are only supposed to penalize them for it if it's outside the tackle box as well if I remember the rule correctly.

[BroncoWave]

Pryor just tweeted this. The side effects of concussions can be super scary. I can't imagine forgetting about most of the game because of one hit.

"Sorry about the loss RaiderNation. I don't remember much ! Good hit by whoever it was. I heard our team fought well .. We will be back!"

[Ravage!!!]

I think he heard wrong. :D

[BroncoWave]

I think he heard wrong. :D

He did say it was a good hit though, so he didn't seem to think it was illegal himself.

[wayninja]

You can't tell that's it Pyor's facemask hitting Woodyard's earhole?

Looks to me like it ends up at the ear hole, but definitely doesn't start there. After Pryor's head is turned, and Woodyard continues through, the facemask ends up at the ear hole.

I'll give up on the crown thing as clearly the consensus is that it wasn't the crown. Again, I agree that he didn't use his crown, I'm simply trying to play devils advocate.

I still did expect to see a flag though. I almost always do when I see a QB get hurt.

[BroncoWave]

Looks to me like it ends up at the ear hole, but definitely doesn't start there. After Pryor's head is turned, and Woodyard continues through, the facemask ends up at the ear hole.

I'll give up on the crown thing as clearly the consensus is that it wasn't the crown. Again, I agree that he didn't use his crown, I'm simply trying to play devils advocate.

I still did expect to see a flag though. I almost always do when I see a QB get hurt.

I didn't really expect a flag here. The league has made it a point of emphasis this year that running QBs will get no more protection from refs than a RB does. If you've noticed, Harbaugh and Carroll have both made a stink about it because people are taking shots at their QBs on read option plays. So I think the refs were actually being consistent by not calling a penalty on Woodyard.

[wayninja]

I didn't really expect a flag here. The league has made it a point of emphasis this year that running QBs will get no more protection from refs than a RB does. If you've noticed, Harbaugh and Carroll have both made a stink about it because people are taking shots at their QBs on read option plays. So I think the refs were actually being consistent by not calling a penalty on Woodyard.

My issue is the lack of consistency. I think we had a play last week (or maybe the week before?) where I believe Moore made a smashing lead-with-shoulder hit that resulted in a penalty. My beef isn't so much with the rules as they are written, but the difficulty in enforcing subjective guidelines with no review option.

[OrangeHoof]

The NFL seems to fine based on results, not rules. I would not be surprised to find out mid-week that Woodyard gets fined but the video I am seeing here seems clear. Woodyard hit Pryor's shoulder first and the momentum carried forward into HTH so, IMO, it's a legal hit.

[MOtorboat]

They are only supposed to penalize them for it if it's outside the tackle box as well if I remember the rule correctly.

I thought the stipulation was "open field."

[Ravage!!!]

My issue is the lack of consistency. I think we had a play last week (or maybe the week before?) where I believe Moore made a smashing lead-with-shoulder hit that resulted in a penalty. My beef isn't so much with the rules as they are written, but the difficulty in enforcing subjective guidelines with no review option.

Ahh.. but what you are forgetting is that the refs themselves are the ones on the field making that 1/4 second distinction at the time of the play. That doesnt' have anything to do with the NFL and it's rules, but the split second interpretation of those rules. The play you saw that did get a penalty may have been a legal hit and should NOT have been called. I think watching this one in slow motion shows that the refs did a great job of NOT calling it. It's possible, had we had a different ref crew at the game last night, that t hey MIGHT have called that an illegal hit.

[PatriotsGuy]

I thought the stipulation was "open field."

helmet-crown hits by running backs when they are outside the tackle box or more than three yards downfield.

[topscribe]

Woodyard did not lead with his head nor did he target Pryor's head = good hit. Woodyard led with his shoulder. I thought there helmets making contact was a residual effect of the speed/violence of Woodyard's shoulder to Pryor's chest/chin area. No flag, no fine, no warning.
It was vividly obvious: Woodyard's head was to the side as he hit Pryor.
Absolutely a clean hit. No doubt about it.
.

[shank]

My issue is the lack of consistency. I think we had a play last week (or maybe the week before?) where I believe Moore made a smashing lead-with-shoulder hit that resulted in a penalty. My beef isn't so much with the rules as they are written, but the difficulty in enforcing subjective guidelines with no review option.

That was against a defenseless receiver. Upon review it was clean, but at full speed it was close enough that it's a forgivable mistake. Big difference between runner and defenseless receiver though.

[LawDog]

helmet-crown hits by running backs when they are outside the tackle box or more than three yards downfield.

Watch the video I linked above, it is not limited to running backs. The new rule added running backs but it applies to defensive players as well. The second scenario discussed in the video is the exact same scenario as the Woodyard tackle, and explains why no flag and why it will not be fined.

[Northman]

I think that hit was fine. I got a bit concerned early in the game when Moore (i think it was him) hit a defenseless receiver. Moore used his shoulder but ive seen so many plays like that get flagged that i was automatically assuming he would get one. Glad he didnt though.

[wayninja]

I think that hit was fine. I got a bit concerned early in the game when Moore (i think it was him) hit a defenseless receiver. Moore used his shoulder but ive seen so many plays like that get flagged that i was automatically assuming he would get one. Glad he didnt though.

I'm watching NFL replay at the moment, the very first play of the game had a 49er get flagged under the new 'crown of the helmet' rule, but looking in slow mo, it was obvious that the defender turned his head and led with his shoulder. The announcers were appropriately apologizing for the refs.

I guess I just don't like the rule. Subjective rules suck, especially when they aren't reviewable.

[Ravage!!!]

I think that hit was fine. I got a bit concerned early in the game when Moore (i think it was him) hit a defenseless receiver. Moore used his shoulder but ive seen so many plays like that get flagged that i was automatically assuming he would get one. Glad he didnt though.

Me too. I remember that and th inking "Oh crap, that stupid rule is going to bite us here."

Which is why I was also glad they didn't make a call against the Raiders on the hit to DT. As a football guy, I WANT the safeties to try and hit recievers so that they don't catch balls. That is their JOB. That is football. This "let them catch it to see if its ok to then tackle them" crap, is taking away from the game.

Both good, non calls.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Me too. I remember that and th inking "Oh crap, that stupid rule is going to bite us here."

Which is why I was also glad they didn't make a call against the Raiders on the hit to DT. As a football guy, I WANT the safeties to try and hit recievers so that they don't catch balls. That is their JOB. That is football. This "let them catch it to see if its ok to then tackle them" crap, is taking away from the game.

Both good, non calls.

DT saw that hit coming too. He dropped the ball before contact was even made. That's the second game in a row I've seen him do that. I can't say I blame him if he knows he's going to get lit up.

[slim]

DT saw that hit coming too. He dropped the ball before contact was even made. That's the second game in a row I've seen him do that. I can't say I blame him if he knows he's going to get lit up.

Welker short-armed one too.

[Ravage!!!]

DT saw that hit coming too. He dropped the ball before contact was even made. That's the second game in a row I've seen him do that. I can't say I blame him if he knows he's going to get lit up.

Yeah.. he absolutely grew alligator arms on that one.


You know, Welker slid after catching a ball and running for a bit. I seem to remember people getting pretty angry at Decker for similar things.

[topscribe]

Yeah.. he absolutely grew alligator arms on that one.


You know, Welker slid after catching a ball and running for a bit. I seem to remember people getting pretty angry at Decker for similar things.
Lol, well, Decker is a big guy. Welker isn't . . .
.

[Slick]

I still hate the term defensless receiver. I know it's now a part of the game but I don't like it. A guy catching a punt can be defensless.

[G_Money]

Just think how badass some of the receivers of old were, going across the middle when Ronnie Lott and Steve Atwater were gonna make them cough up a spleen and fumble around on the ground for their jaws after some of those hits.

These receivers are getting alligator arms while never having been lit up like that. I'm not one to always harp about how "back in the day" things were so much better... but those possession receivers who worked the middle of the field with athletic monsters head-hunting them were TOUGH.

Doubt they were the slide-down-without-ever-being-touched kind either.

It's still possible to play physical D in the secondary though. The Seahawks do it, and we're still lighting guys up in the chest instead of the helmet. Hopefully that doesn't go away completely. Risk-reward is a big part of where you throw the ball, and the middle of the field used to be a kill zone where receivers would chew out QBs for leading them too much and letting them take a helmet in the ribs.

Shoulder-pads in the ribs hurt too.

~G

[wayninja]

Yeah.. he absolutely grew alligator arms on that one.


You know, Welker slid after catching a ball and running for a bit. I seem to remember people getting pretty angry at Decker for similar things.

Welker is 32 and 5'9. Decker is 26 and 6'3. I'm sure others will disagree, but that's reason enough to not expect them to react the same way.

I simply expect Decker to use his size more than Welker. To his credit, Decker did fight for yardage last night.

[Northman]

Yeah.. he absolutely grew alligator arms on that one.


You know, Welker slid after catching a ball and running for a bit. I seem to remember people getting pretty angry at Decker for similar things.


I think the only problem with Decker's slide was that he was still in open field. Welker just had nowhere to go on his catch.

[Northman]

Just think how badass some of the receivers of old were, going across the middle when Ronnie Lott and Steve Atwater were gonna make them cough up a spleen and fumble around on the ground for their jaws after some of those hits.

These receivers are getting alligator arms while never having been lit up like that. I'm not one to always harp about how "back in the day" things were so much better... but those possession receivers who worked the middle of the field with athletic monsters head-hunting them were TOUGH.

Doubt they were the slide-down-without-ever-being-touched kind either.

It's still possible to play physical D in the secondary though. The Seahawks do it, and we're still lighting guys up in the chest instead of the helmet. Hopefully that doesn't go away completely. Risk-reward is a big part of where you throw the ball, and the middle of the field used to be a kill zone where receivers would chew out QBs for leading them too much and letting them take a helmet in the ribs.

Shoulder-pads in the ribs hurt too.

~G

Easy Ed comes to mind. He used to take some wicked shots (one that cost him a broken leg in 2000).

[slim]

I think the only problem with Decker's slide was that he was still in open field. Welker just had nowhere to go on his catch.

Yeah, Decker could have made a play.

Welker was hemmed in pretty good.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Yeah, Decker could have made a play.

Welker was hemmed in pretty good.

Welker is also only about 185. He doesn't need to be taking shots from guys. I was glad to see him get down.

[slim]

Welker is also only about 185. He doesn't need to be taking shots from guys. I was glad to see him get down.

He has short arms.

I am glad he is on the team, but he looks funny catching passes.

[jhns]

Yeah.. he absolutely grew alligator arms on that one.


You know, Welker slid after catching a ball and running for a bit. I seem to remember people getting pretty angry at Decker for similar things.

Decker is much bigger and much younger. It's the same reason no one said anything about Stokley doing the same. Really it was critisized because he did it about the same time he fell with no defenders near him. He was doing some silly stuff around that time.

That Woodyard hit was amazing though. He is such a good player. He had that play figured out and Pryor on the ground before I knew what was going on. I rewound it to watch it a few more times. This team has a lot of good young defensive talent right now. I can't wait to see Champ and Miller back.

[Ravage!!!]

I justs give shit about the Decker slide because that was all about trying to save clock and get the ball back into the QBs hands (from his perspective anyway). I didn't WANT Welker to take a shot and thought taking a slide was smart. Hell, Rod Smith would do the same thing and was I was glad about it. Timing is everything, and I don't want my 6'3" guy taking a hit he doesn't need to take any more than the 5'10 guy.

Decker doesn't seem to be getting the props around here that I think he should get. He had one HELL of a game, came up big many times, and fought for a tough first down. Yet the only time we see posts and threads about him are when someone wants to gripe, moan, and grown. :shrug:

Oh well.... : kicks my box to the side: I'm sure I'll hop on that again another time.

[slim]

He had a great game last night. No doubt.

But he does make a lot of mistakes. It's OK to call him out when he does.

[Northman]

No worries, i like Decker. Hope we keep him.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I justs give shit about the Decker slide because that was all about trying to save clock and get the ball back into the QBs hands (from his perspective anyway). I didn't WANT Welker to take a shot and thought taking a slide was smart. Hell, Rod Smith would do the same thing and was I was glad about it. Timing is everything, and I don't want my 6'3" guy taking a hit he doesn't need to take any more than the 5'10 guy.

Decker doesn't seem to be getting the props around here that I think he should get. He had one HELL of a game, came up big many times, and fought for a tough first down. Yet the only time we see posts and threads about him are when someone wants to gripe, moan, and grown. :shrug:

Oh well.... : kicks my box to the side: I'm sure I'll hop on that again another time.

Decker had a great game, no doubt. He not only had some good runs after the catch, but he also had a great grab in the game too where he had to spin around and catch a ball that was thrown behind him on a crossing route. It was probably the best catch of the game.

[BroncoWave]

I justs give shit about the Decker slide because that was all about trying to save clock and get the ball back into the QBs hands (from his perspective anyway). I didn't WANT Welker to take a shot and thought taking a slide was smart. Hell, Rod Smith would do the same thing and was I was glad about it. Timing is everything, and I don't want my 6'3" guy taking a hit he doesn't need to take any more than the 5'10 guy.

Decker doesn't seem to be getting the props around here that I think he should get. He had one HELL of a game, came up big many times, and fought for a tough first down. Yet the only time we see posts and threads about him are when someone wants to gripe, moan, and grown. :shrug:

Oh well.... : kicks my box to the side: I'm sure I'll hop on that again another time.

There were plenty of positive posts about Decker last night in the game thread, even from myself, one of his biggest critics. He had a great game. I don't think there is any hypocrisy in how we talk about him on here. Yeah, he is criticized a lot, but he gets his proper credit when he plays well.

[wayninja]

There were plenty of positive posts about Decker last night in the game thread, even from myself, one of his biggest critics. He had a great game. I don't think there is any hypocrisy in how we talk about him on here. Yeah, he is criticized a lot, but he gets his proper credit when he plays well.

Agreed, I think he's gotten recognition for his play last night, which was really good. I also still believe he is the reciever in our corp with the most to prove. Just my take though.

[ShaneFalco]

Dont really care if was legal or not. Game moving at a higher speed in players minds then on replay. Woodyard barely had time to adjust .

[Northman]

Agreed, I think he's gotten recognition for his play last night, which was really good. I also still believe he is the reciever in our corp with the most to prove. Just my take though.

I dont think he has anything to prove. He was what? A 5th rounder? He's done more than enough to justify keeping him on the squad for me. Last year i stacked up his numbers to guys like Rod Smith and Easy Ed and he was right there with them if not better. Its kind of weird to see people harp on his negatives while glossing over the negatives of DT (fumbling a lot). DT is far more talented but he was also taken in the first round because of that. Decker is a late round guy who has stepped up when needed too. All receivers can have off days or bad moments but 90% of the time Decker comes through and personally thats good enough for me.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I dont think he has anything to prove. He was what? A 5th rounder? He's done more than enough to justify keeping him on the squad for me. Last year i stacked up his numbers to guys like Rod Smith and Easy Ed and he was right there with them if not better. Its kind of weird to see people harp on his negatives while glossing over the negatives of DT (fumbling a lot). DT is far more talented but he was also taken in the first round because of that. Decker is a late round guy who has stepped up when needed too. All receivers can have off days or bad moments but 90% of the time Decker comes through and personally thats good enough for me.

Decker was taken in the 3rd because an injury during his senior year made his draft stock drop.

[Northman]

Decker was taken in the 3rd because an injury during his senior year made his draft stock drop.


Even with that he has proven more valuable than people give him credit for.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Even with that he has proven more valuable than people give him credit for.

I think he is what he is....a good #2 receiver.

[Broncolingus]

Sad Pryor got injured, but the hit looked legal within the rules and Woodyard (perceived) intent...he looked to be leading with his shoulder and the helmet contact was after and incidental...

...they play so fast it's amazing they can be conscious and in control enough to not get flagged more.

JMO

[wayninja]

Looks Pryor is changing his tune a bit... even though he fist bumped Woodyard after the hit and tweeted later that it was a good shot, he's now saying Woodyard should be fined:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/89221/terrelle-pryor-woodyard-should-get-fined

[drewloc]

Looks Pryor is changing his tune a bit... even though he fist bumped Woodyard after the hit and tweeted later that it was a good shot, he's now saying Woodyard should be fined:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/89221/terrelle-pryor-woodyard-should-get-fined

Well his own coach said it was a legal hit, so I don't put much stock into his statement.

[Northman]

Lol, typical. What a puzzy.

[TXBRONC]

Looks Pryor is changing his tune a bit... even though he fist bumped Woodyard after the hit and tweeted later that it was a good shot, he's now saying Woodyard should be fined:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/89221/terrelle-pryor-woodyard-should-get-fined

Too bad it was a legal hit.

[DenBronx]

Theres a new article about this over at PFT. raider fans are all crying about this and saying if it were Manning every flag in the stadium would have came out and the whole NFL would have shut down for 6 weeks blah blah blah. They have this complex that everyones against them and the world isnt fair.

Dennis Allen even said it was a legal hit. Woody hit Pryor with his right shoulder pad and even turned his head so it wouldnt be helmet to helmet.

[Northman]

Except of course Manning isnt a hybrid QB. Because the Raiders use Pryor like a Michael Vick, Cam Newton, etc they will always be viewed as runners. You dont want your QB to get hurt? Quit using them as RB's.

[LawDog]

Theres a new article about this over at PFT. raider fans are all crying about this and saying if it were Manning every flag in the stadium would have came out and the whole NFL would have shut down for 6 weeks blah blah blah. They have this complex that everyones against them and the world isnt fair.

Dennis Allen even said it was a legal hit. Woody hit Pryor with his right shoulder pad and even turned his head so it wouldnt be helmet to helmet.

Because Manning is a running QB who puts himself in a position to be treated as a tailback... What a stupid argument.

[BroncoWave]

Because Manning is a running QB who puts himself in a position to be treated as a tailback... What a stupid argument.

Well, what do you expect from a stupid fanbase?

[TXBRONC]

Theres a new article about this over at PFT. raider fans are all crying about this and saying if it were Manning every flag in the stadium would have came out and the whole NFL would have shut down for 6 weeks blah blah blah. They have this complex that everyones against them and the world isnt fair.

Dennis Allen even said it was a legal hit. Woody hit Pryor with his right shoulder pad and even turned his head so it wouldnt be helmet to helmet.

Yeah like every flag that was thrown when Manning took a shot to the jaw in Ravens game.

[DenBronx]

Because Manning is a running QB who puts himself in a position to be treated as a tailback... What a stupid argument.


Yeah you guys should read some of their comments. Rather pathetic..

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/26/pryor-wants-nfl-to-fine-woodyard-but-allen-was-ok-with-the-hit/

[DenBronx]

Almost every raider fan I know they really cry about how unfair the NFL is to them. I am not exaggerating or joking at all. It's tuck rulle this and tuck rule that. Or Gruden screwed them over or Calahan sabotaged the team or the refs throw flags because Al tried to sue the league years back. It's really annoying. Anyone else know raider fans like this??

[LTC Pain]

Raider fan = cross between a KISS concert and a bad Hallowen party!

[Northman]

Almost every raider fan I know they really cry about how unfair the NFL is to them. I am not exaggerating or joking at all. It's tuck rulle this and tuck rule that. Or Gruden screwed them over or Calahan sabotaged the team or the refs throw flags because Al tried to sue the league years back. It's really annoying. Anyone else know raider fans like this??

Most of them ive come across are dolts. But guys like Devilspawn are the exception to the rule. I feel bad for him. Well sort of, since his fandom is self inflicted. lol

[BroncoWave]

I can only think of two Raider fans who I have met, but both actually seem like pretty good people. One was a guy I worked with last year who was actually a nice guy and knew his football. The other is kinda obnoxious, but he spends his free time volunteering at homeless shelters and leading bible studies, so definitely not your stereotypical Raider fan. Thankfully I haven't interacted with any of the gutter trash Raider fans you see on TV or posting on the internet.

[Joel]

He still hits Pryor under the chin with the crown of his helmet. Does intention factor into it?
It (rather than type of play or location of contact) SHOULD be the primary factor, but is irrelevant, possibly because so hard for anyone not involved to know.

The hit looked good to me; he led with his shoulder and, while it's illegal to hit a PASSER in the head with a shoulder or anything else, Pryor ceased being a passer when he tucked it away to run.

It seems like a few people are conflating the helmet-to-helmet and defenseless player rules, but I'm fairly certain those are separate rules. So hitting a defenseless receiver or QB in the head is illegal whatever one leads with, but since there's no such thing as a defenseless runner both running backs and running QBs get no such protection. Complaining about QBs becoming targets when they run boils down to complaing about the league changing rules to favor and increase passing over running: QBs are more vulnerable running than passing for the same reason RBs are more vulnerable running than WRs are catching.

Meanwhile, helmet-to-helmet is illegal whether a player's defenseless or not, except in the cases others have already noted (basically, at or near the line.) So penalties and possible fines are assessed for:

1) Hitting a receiver in the head/shoulder with ANYTHING before he has made a move common to the game of football,
2) Hitting a passer above the neck or below the knees and
3) Leading with the helmet when hitting anyone away from the line, before OR AFTER a receiver makes a move common to the game.

Really, I still do not understand why we needed a new rule for the last one; it's just spearing, and spearing has been illegal a very long time. The safety-conscious league is totally fine with sticking a shoulder in a guys head as long as he is not involved in a pass though, or after he makes a catch AND any move common to the game. If I were an offensive player that would sure encourage me to pass rather than run, and not just because of all the old and new defensive pass penalties that award automatic first downs. Just no helmet-to-helmet, except at the line.

In this case, Woodward stuck his shoulder in a runners head, which is perfectly legal, and the fact his helmet made contact AFTER he led with his shoulder is irrelevant, because he didn't lead with his helmet.

Am I missing something, or does that about cover it?

[topscribe]

Yeah you guys should read some of their comments. Rather pathetic..

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/26/pryor-wants-nfl-to-fine-woodyard-but-allen-was-ok-with-the-hit/
Well, when their own coach doesn't see anything wrong with the hit, what else is there to say?
.

[topscribe]

No worries, i like Decker. Hope we keep him.
You better believe it. The guy is a beast . . .
.

[Dzone]

That was beautiful shoulder tackle. Textbook. No penalty. How can anyone even play football anymore? There is no way you can play "heads up football" 100% of the time, otherwise you would have a hyper-extended neck.

[TXBRONC]

Looks Pryor is changing his tune a bit... even though he fist bumped Woodyard after the hit and tweeted later that it was a good shot, he's now saying Woodyard should be fined:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/89221/terrelle-pryor-woodyard-should-get-fined

So because Pryor has had change of heart and now says it was an illegal hit therefore it was? I don't think so.

I don't see what you're claiming. I've looked over that play numerous times and still haven't seen where crown of Woodyard's helmet with Pryor's jaw. Also keep in mind he was running back at that point.

If there is case to be made leading with the crown of the helmet that didn't get called it was the hit on D. Thomas.

[wayninja]

So because Pryor has had change of heart and now says it was an illegal hit therefore it was? I don't think so.

I don't see what you're claiming. I've looked over that play numerous times and still haven't seen where crown of Woodyard's helmet with Pryor's jaw. Also keep in mind he was running back at that point.

If there is case to be made leading with the crown of the helmet that didn't get called it was the hit on D. Thomas.

I'm not claiming anything. I posted a related article, nothing more. I also posted several times that I was playing Devils advocate and that I gave up on the crown thing because the consensus was clearly that it was NOT the crown. I also said that I completely agree that it was a legal hit.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not claiming anything. I posted a related article, nothing more. I also posted several times that I was playing Devils advocate and that I gave up on the crown thing because the consensus was clearly that it was NOT the crown. I also said that I completely agree that it was a legal hit.

I'm just responding to your post I'm not trying rag on you.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Honestly, I think that was a pretty stupid play call for the Raiders to have their QB running between the tackles on the goal line. There were 9 freaking guys in the box...stupid.

[Ravage!!!]

Honestly, I think that was a pretty stupid play call for the Raiders to have their QB running between the tackles on the goal line. There were 9 freaking guys in the box...stupid.

I was calling a QB draw the moment it was spotted on the 1. Spread formation, shotgun, QB draw is what I called. Thought it would have been a rollout to force DBs to stay back and cover the WRs, though.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I was calling a QB draw the moment it was spotted on the 1. Spread formation, shotgun, QB draw is what I called. Thought it would have been a rollout to force DBs to stay back and cover the WRs, though.

Well, it wasn't really a draw. He ran off tackle. A draw might have been a safer play because their wouldn't have been as much velocity behind the hit. Nevertheless, I hope they rethink what they do in those situations.

Who knows, it might not have been as bad if he wasn't being grabbed from behind. It was kind of scary how freaking fast Woody closed. Man, that dude is explosive. He might be the fastest linebacker in football.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, it wasn't really a draw. He ran off tackle. A draw might have been a safer play because their wouldn't have been as much velocity behind the hit. Nevertheless, I hope they rethink what they do in those situations.

No.. it wasn't a draw. But that was what I was guessing it to be. I honestly thought it would be the classic draw, from shotgun, right up the middle choosing left of right of the center. But then I thought, "makes more sense to roll him out on a pass to keep the DBs back and have him out speed the LB." Then neither happened and I was pretty happy. I'm guessing that was an option type play that he decided to turn up early? I don't know, seemed like a weird play to me, altogether.

But I also hope they do NOT rethink those decisions from the point forward. I love to watch the Raiders fail.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

No.. it wasn't a draw. But that was what I was guessing it to be. I honestly thought it would be the classic draw, from shotgun, right up the middle choosing left of right of the center. But then I thought, "makes more sense to roll him out on a pass to keep the DBs back and have him out speed the LB." Then neither happened and I was pretty happy. I'm guessing that was an option type play that he decided to turn up early? I don't know, seemed like a weird play to me, altogether.

Well, yeah, that makes sense. I can see using your QB to try and get to the edge with a few disguises on the way. But, if they keep using him like that in short yardage situations he won't last long. I don't see Kaep or Wilson taking shots like that. They run a few times per game, but they usually get down before contact....unless it's a cornerback. :laugh:

[LTC Pain]

Some have indicated that Woody is a bit undersized to play MLB. I thought he laid a pretty good thumping on Pryor on the play in question.

[topscribe]

Some have indicated that Woody is a bit undersized to play MLB. I thought he laid a pretty good thumping on Pryor on the play in question.
Some thought Zach Thomas was going to be too small, too . . .
.