Schefter: Denver has rendered Miller's suspension virtually meaningless

[BroncoWave]

Good article here.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9684692/broncos-thrive-miller-adam-schefter-blitz


Outside of a standout tight end's arrest on first-degree murder charges -- one of the most stunning offseason NFL developments ever -- the NFL's biggest summer story was Broncos linebacker Von Miller's six-game suspension for violating the league's drug policy.

The Broncos have been impressive in their first two games -- a near NFL-record 90 points, an obscene nine touchdown passes from Peyton Manning, six interceptions of the last two Super Bowl MVPs. But this is Denver's most impressive feat: It has rendered Miller's six-game suspension virtually meaningless.

One of the NFL's best pass-rushers and top defensive players is banned for six games, and Denver hasn't missed him at all. The Broncos have beaten, handily, in back-to-back weeks, the last two Super Bowl champions, the Giants and Ravens. And now, even without Miller, the Broncos are well-positioned not only to win their division, but also to capture home-field advantage.

[Northman]

and Denver hasn't missed him at all.

Which makes me think he can be expendable.

[Ravage!!!]

Which makes me think he can be expendable.

Two games as opposed to having the best OLB and pass rusher in the NFL? Derrick Thomas terrorized this division for years, and was always a force to be reckoned with. I don't like the idea of getting rid of the best defensive player we have, and one of the very best in the NFL. I'm hoping Elway sees it that way, too.

[BroncoWave]

Two games as opposed to having the best OLB and pass rusher in the NFL? Derrick Thomas terrorized this division for years, and was always a force to be reckoned with. I don't like the idea of getting rid of the best defensive player we have, and one of the very best in the NFL. I'm hoping Elway sees it that way, too.

I would imagine Elway does see it that way. As good as we are now, it makes me giddy to think of how much better we will be when Miller gets back.

[Ravage!!!]

I would imagine Elway does see it that way. As good as we are now, it makes me giddy to think of how much better we will be when Miller gets back.

Just to have that ONE MORE added bullet to our belt. First we ahve this offense that is going to make DCs bald with them pulling their hair out to match up with, and then on defense we have another mis-matching problem to deal with. Not only will Mannings offense put teams on their heals, but the opposing QB then has to deal with Von Miller with his ears pulled back on every down? That's just fun.

[Northman]

Two games as opposed to having the best OLB and pass rusher in the NFL? Derrick Thomas terrorized this division for years, and was always a force to be reckoned with. I don't like the idea of getting rid of the best defensive player we have, and one of the very best in the NFL. I'm hoping Elway sees it that way, too.

Well, last week it was "its only one game". This week its "its only two games" If we beat the raiders the excuse will be "its only 3 games".

Dont get me wrong, im quite aware of the the talent that Von has. But if the team is doing it WITHOUT him i find it hard to say "lets keep the idiot" just because he possesses talent. Ironically, Thomas terrorized the league yet died at a young age because of poor decisions in his personal life. Fact for me is if the Bronco defense keeps playing the way they are and arent "missing" Von as the article suggests than why do i want him back? Technially why screw up the massive chemistry our current defense has in place? Why allow a guy who constantly gets in trouble take up a roster spot while he only plays half a season? Some of you guys get so wrapped up in these players but when the players are arent even on the field contributing like they should it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I want guys on this team that want to be here and actually want to play and right now the guys we have playing have that desire and are showing it.

[Army Bronco]

We have also been with out Champ. Does that make both Champ and Von expendable? Hell no! It will makes us the Beasts of the NFL when they return. What if we don't lose with Clady out? Remember in the 98 season when we kept winning with Bubby Brister and his " comraderieship"? It did not make Elway expendable as we saw the next season.

[Northman]

We have also been with out Champ. Does that make both Champ and Von expendable? Hell no! It will makes us the Beasts of the NFL when they return. What if we don't lose with Clady out? Remember in the 98 season when we kept winning with Bubby Brister and his " comraderieship"? It did not make Elway expendable as we saw the next season.

The difference is Elway and Champ were hurt. Clady is hurt. Von is just a complete dumbass.

[BroncoWave]

The difference is Elway and Champ were hurt. Clady is hurt. Von is just a complete dumbass.

So what? So are tons of NFL players. No team is full of boy scouts. Every team has to put up with their fair share of knuckleheads to help them win.

[Northman]

So what? So are tons of NFL players. No team is full of boy scouts. Every team has to put up with their fair share of knuckleheads to help them win.

Well, according to that article Denver apparently doesnt.

[rationalfan]

as much as anything else, i think this speaks to the quality depth of this broncos team - something the team hasn't had in quite a while. through the final years of shanny's time here and especially with McD, it seemed like one or two injuries put those teams into nosedives. outside of manning, i don't see that happening this year.

[chazoe60]

If Von had been out assaulting people, beating his old lady, or doing other violent thuggish bullshit then I'd br more inclined to want to trade him, but I can't see the sense in trading arguably the best defensive player in the league for weed and forgetting to pay some fines. Stupid mistakes? No doubt. Mistakes that will make me brand a young man as some kind of failure who should be jettisoned from the team? Absolutely not.

The other thing I keep thinking about is how many people, including media folks who have dealt with him, have come out said that he's a good kid who just needs to grow up. He's worth taking a risk on, especially considering the relatively minor shit he's done.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I made a thread on this yesterday: The article posted in the thread, was just written yesterday - two weeks after Von has not played a game for the Broncos. Another 4 weeks before he will play a game for the Broncos. And the article has Von at the top of the list. Also, Dumervil is mentioned in the second tier.

article - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000247142/article/von-miller-tops-atls-outside-linebacker-rankings

IMO, there is no way the Broncos trade Von

[Army Bronco]

We have also been with out Champ. Does that make both Champ and Von expendable? Hell no! It will makes us the Beasts of the NFL when they return. What if we don't lose with Clady out? Remember in the 98 season when we kept winning with Bubby Brister and his " comraderieship"? It did not make Elway expendable as we saw the next season.

The difference is Elway and Champ were hurt. Clady is hurt. Von is just a complete dumbass.lol, Von is! But I still want him on our team.
.

[TXBRONC]

Yes Denver has played these first two game well without Miller but it has had huge impact on the defense. Denver in these first two hasn't been able to get to the quarterback without blitzing.

[TXBRONC]

Two games as opposed to having the best OLB and pass rusher in the NFL? Derrick Thomas terrorized this division for years, and was always a force to be reckoned with. I don't like the idea of getting rid of the best defensive player we have, and one of the very best in the NFL. I'm hoping Elway sees it that way, too.

I'm glad Denver has one won there first two games but lets face it Denver has played two struggling teams. What if they had faced the Texans and Seahawks in back to back weeks?

[topscribe]

Which makes me think he can be expendable.
Maybe. But that doesn't necessarily mean the Broncos shouldn't keep him.
The Broncos have a good defense without Miller. With him, they can be
close to dominant. The Broncos have won without him and likely will continue
to do so. However, the playoffs are a different story. When they roll around,
it will be very nice to have him on the field.
.

[Tned]

Which makes me think he can be expendable.

Bite your avatar's tongue! It's not like he's a midget, one-trick pony!

[claymore]

Trading Miller would be the dumbest thing this franchise has ever done.

[Dreadnought]

Trading Miller would be the dumbest thing this franchise has ever done.

Naw, that would be hiring Josh McDaniels. He retired that dumbest thing trophy.

Anyways, even a trade of a high profile and excellent football player works out sometimes. For example, once upon a time we traded a RB named Clinton Portis (now long retired) and swindled the Redskins out of both Champ Bailey and a second rounder for him!

[Northman]

Yes Denver has played these first two game well without Miller but it has had huge impact on the defense. Denver in these first two hasn't been able to get to the quarterback without blitzing.

NO offense TX, but we won our first two SB's doing a lot of blitzing.

[Northman]

With him, they can be
close to dominant.
.

Yea, if they can rely on him. So far that hasnt been the case.

[Northman]

Trading Miller would be the dumbest thing this franchise has ever done.

I think you said that about the Cutler trade too......

[CoachChaz]

All I know is I would hate to be Andrew Luck and the Colts right tackle.

[Ravage!!!]

All I know is I would hate to be Andrew Luck and the Colts right tackle.

Andrew hates his LT, too. Have you seen his OL right now? They are HORRIBLE. Picked a good game to come out on all cylinders.

[Broncolingus]

Schefter: Denver has rendered Miller's suspension virtually meaningless

...I think that's taking it a bit far and dramatic, Adam.

It's a long season and I think he's extremely important to any post season success Denver (will) have...

[topscribe]

Yea, if they can rely on him. So far that hasnt been the case.
??

This is Von's third year. His first year, he played 15 games, had 11.5 sacks, and was named to the Pro Bowl.
Last year, he played 17 games, had 18.5 sacks, and was named to the Pro Bow AND NFL All-Pro.

We had two years of being able to rely on him, and then some, before the debacle this year. I'm not about
to throw in the towel on him over this. And, apparently, the Broncos aren't, either.
.

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah, I would say that he's been pretty reliable.

[Davii]

All I know is I would hate to be Andrew Luck and the Colts right tackle.

Or left tackle or any interior linemen. I think we'll see von attack from all over the formation this year

[TXBRONC]

NO offense TX, but we won our first two SB's doing a lot of blitzing.

True but that's not what Shanahan wanted to do. He went out and signed Neil Smih with the hopes he would improve the pass rush.

[MOtorboat]

Trading Miller would be dumb.

[TXBRONC]

I would rather Denver have as many weapons as possible on both sides of the ball.

[Northman]

??

This is Von's third year. His first year, he played 15 games, had 11.5 sacks, and was named to the Pro Bowl.
Last year, he played 17 games, had 18.5 sacks, and was named to the Pro Bow AND NFL All-Pro.

We had two years of being able to rely on him, and then some, before the debacle this year. I'm not about
to throw in the towel on him over this. And, apparently, the Broncos aren't, either.
.

Well, no shit the Broncos arent. Thank you Capt. Obvious.

[Ravage!!!]

True but that's not what Shanahan wanted to do. He went out signed Neil Smih with hopes he would improve the pass rush.

And Williams.

[rationalfan]

Naw, that would be hiring Josh McDaniels. He retired that dumbest thing trophy.

without mcD denver doesn't get miller. just sayin.

[Ravage!!!]

without mcD denver doesn't get miller. just sayin.

Yeah.. that's not exactly rational thinking. "Without having a crappy coach, we never would have had the chance to have such a high round draft pick."

Going by that logic, I guess we should go looking for crappy coaches so that we continue to have those picks!!!!

[TXBRONC]

And Williams.

Yep and it didn't pan out the way Shanahan hoped it would.

[topscribe]

Well, no shit the Broncos arent. Thank you Capt. Obvious.
No offense, Anubis. Just jawing with you. ;)
.

[Joel]

Yeah, racking up 40 points will do that, but sooner or later even the best offense runs into a team that can at least slow, if not necessarily SHUT, it down. That's why we have defense, yet except for a cluster of sacks when the Ravens lost a starting tackle in the third quarter we haven't gotten to the QB much. Understand, I still believe sacks overrated, but only because so many people are so obsessed with them; the pass rush DOES matter, it's just not the end all be all of defense. If we're getting picks and forcing punts, fine; a coverage sack is STILL a sack.

We can't count on that every week though, and sending extra blitzers because the front four can't get there is NOT a long term solution. Hopefully we don't need a long term solution, since Miller will be back in a month if he can keep his nose clean that long (hardly a guarantee at this point.) But saying the suspension's virtually meaningless is an exaggeration; lighting up our first two opponents may TECHNICALLY validate it depending on whether the Cowboys show up (always hard to predict) and Michael Vicks health, but if either offense comes in hot we probably won't be shagging Hail Marys in garbage time.

[CrazyHorse]

The only scenario in which we would or should trade Miller is if we get some Herschel Walker type deal.

[Krugan]

I think our pass RUSH is kinda meh without Von, but I just watch the games.

Not that im promoting stupid ass behavior, and I certainly dont like the idea of my kid looking up to him at this point, but as far as football, we kinda need him...

[Army Bronco]

I understand that everyone is worried about the pass rush but we just played 2 games. The first against the SB champs and the second against the previous SB champs. Last PO game against the Ravens we barely got any pressure with Von and Dumervil. If we do not generate any pressure against the Raiders then we can begin to wonder a bit more because its 3 games and its the Raiders. I do think it will be a bit difficult if Pryor is really good on his feet against us.

[Bugs Baloney]

Maybe. But that doesn't necessarily mean the Broncos shouldn't keep him.
The Broncos have a good defense without Miller. With him, they can be
close to dominant. The Broncos have won without him and likely will continue
to do so. However, the playoffs are a different story. When they roll around,
it will be very nice to have him on the field.
.

my thoughts exactly! :salute:

[TXBRONC]

I understand that everyone is worried about the pass rush but we just played 2 games. The first against the SB champs and the second against the previous SB champs. Last PO game against the Ravens we barely got any pressure with Von and Dumervil. If we do not generate any pressure against the Raiders then we can begin to wonder a bit more because its 3 games and its the Raiders. I do think it will be a bit difficult if Pryor is really good on his feet against us.

And during the season Miller and Dumervil combined for 30 sacks AB.

[OrangeHoof]

The defense has allowed 50 points in two weeks. We're not exactly talking the '85 Bears here.

[rationalfan]

without mcD denver doesn't get miller. just sayin.

Yeah.. that's not exactly rational thinking. "Without having a crappy coach, we never would have had the chance to have such a high round draft pick."

Going by that logic, I guess we should go looking for crappy coaches so that we continue to have those picks!!!!

Dude, you're taking this in the wrong direction.

[TXBRONC]

Dude, you're taking this in the wrong direction.

So we should thank McDaniels for being a dick and a horrible coach?

[SR]

The defense has allowed 50 points in two weeks. We're not exactly talking the '85 Bears here.

We were up 41-16 against the Giants. Your 50 points against comment is a bit misleading considering the context of how the scores actually went.

[EMB6903]

Which makes me think he can be expendable.

People forget way too quickly.

I hate to be the one to say this but Von is already the most dominant defensive player that has ever worn a broncos uniform. He's that good.

To give up on him that easily is stupidity at its finest.

[wayninja]

We were up 41-16 against the Giants. Your 50 points against comment is a bit misleading considering the context of how the scores actually went.

How is it misleading? The sum total of points scored after 2 weeks is 50. That's just math.

Essentially you are saying that it was only 43 points before it was 50 points...

I love how this thread is basically the forum vs North.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm not sure that teams can trade inactive (suspended or IR) players anyway.

[Northman]

We were up 41-16 against the Giants. Your 50 points against comment is a bit misleading considering the context of how the scores actually went.

Not only that, but its not like we were the 2000 Ravens last year either.

[Northman]

People forget way too quickly.

I hate to be the one to say this but Von is already the most dominant defensive player that has ever worn a broncos uniform. He's that good.

To give up on him that easily is stupidity at its finest.

Nothing forgotten. I just want the best player to actually be playing and not sitting on the sidelines for 6 games. Its a pretty reasonable request as a fan.

[Northman]

I love how this thread is basically the forum vs North.


Me too. Its exciting.

[TXBRONC]

Me too. Its exciting.

Attention hog. :D

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The defense has played well without Von and Champ but their addition could bring us back into the top 5 in defense.

The defense has allowed 50 points in 2 games. That's too many. Sooner or later, our high powered offense will have a bad game and not score 40 points. Sooner or later we will face a high powered offense that doesn't turn the ball over. That's when we'll need the defense.

The SD game from last year was the perfect example. The offense started slow and we got in a big hole early on. We needed TE defense to stop SD in the second half so the offense could catch up. Had the defense not gotten turnovers and shut down the Chargers in the second half, we'd have lost that game. Von is a rare talent. He is more valuable to us than anything we could get in return.

[TXBRONC]

Nothing forgotten. I just want the best player to actually be playing and not sitting on the sidelines for 6 games. Its a pretty reasonable request as a fan.

I understand Von's made a plethora of mistakes and now he missing games but I think it would be big mistake to trade him at this point.

[Northman]

I understand Von's made a plethora of mistakes and now he missing games but I think it would be big mistake to trade him at this point.

We shall see.

[atwater27]

Well, last week it was "its only one game". This week its "its only two games" If we beat the raiders the excuse will be "its only 3 games".

Dont get me wrong, im quite aware of the the talent that Von has. But if the team is doing it WITHOUT him i find it hard to say "lets keep the idiot" just because he possesses talent. Ironically, Thomas terrorized the league yet died at a young age because of poor decisions in his personal life. Fact for me is if the Bronco defense keeps playing the way they are and arent "missing" Von as the article suggests than why do i want him back? Technially why screw up the massive chemistry our current defense has in place? Why allow a guy who constantly gets in trouble take up a roster spot while he only plays half a season? Some of you guys get so wrapped up in these players but when the players are arent even on the field contributing like they should it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I want guys on this team that want to be here and actually want to play and right now the guys we have playing have that desire and are showing it.

Don't worry North. They will understand when he gets suspended for a year next time. Or will they?

[atwater27]

without mcD denver doesn't get miller. just sayin.

not something a rational fan would say

[atwater27]

Trading Miller would be dumb.

in your opinion. In other's opinions, not considering trading an almost criminally dumb linebacker who hurts his team badly with his actions would be even dumber.

[atwater27]

I can guarantee you, North, that if we lost those 2 games for whatever reason, this conversation would be going much differently. But it's all good because we are winning in spite of him being gone. So apparently the running wisdom on this board is 'no harm no foul'.

[BroncoWave]

Nothing forgotten. I just want the best player to actually be playing and not sitting on the sidelines for 6 games. Its a pretty reasonable request as a fan.

You know what worse than only having one of the best defensive players in football for 10 games? Having one of the best defensive players in football for zero games.

I mean seriously, we are at worst going to be 5-1 when Von gets back and probably 6-0. I know you are going to use this to say "SEE, we don't need Von!", but the other way to look at it is wow, if we can go 6-0 without him, just imagine how unstoppable we would be with him.

I seriously don't get why you are so hellbent on us giving away the second best player on our team. You know we aren't going to get anything close to equal value for him right?

[BroncoWave]

in your opinion. In other's opinions, not considering trading an almost criminally dumb linebacker who hurts his team badly with his actions would be even dumber.

And those people would be laughably wrong.

[gregbroncs]

I can guarantee you, North, that if we lost those 2 games for whatever reason, this conversation would be going much differently. But it's all good because we are winning in spite of him being gone. So apparently the running wisdom on this board is 'no harm no foul'.If we had lost those games, the conversation would be different. We would be more upset with Miller, but far less willing to consider trading him. So this conversation would likely be even more against North's current stance, because of the difference Von could make. I'm not sure even North would be arguing we should trade him in that case.
.
I'm not going to defend Von too much what he did is stupid. But I did so many things far dumber than these trivial matter's when I was his age, so I find the desire to lynch him for them an overreaction of epic proportions.

[atwater27]

And those people would be laughably wrong.

Those people could very well be in the Broncos front office. So laugh away.

[BroncoWave]

Let's do a hypothetical here. Let's say we win the super bowl this year in large part to contributions Miller makes for us. Let's just assume without him we would not have won the super bowl. Then let's say in the offseason he fails another drug test and gets suspended for a year.

Is there any Bronco fan who would be mad because we didn't trade him, even though that trade would have cost us a super bowl? I know I wouldn't be.

[TXBRONC]

I can guarantee you, North, that if we lost those 2 games for whatever reason, this conversation would be going much differently. But it's all good because we are winning in spite of him being gone. So apparently the running wisdom on this board is 'no harm no foul'.

No one is saying 'no harm no foul' Atty. Everyone realize how bad he screwed up but I respectively disagree with you and North that Denver should consider getting rid of him at this time.

[BroncoWave]

Those people could very well be in the Broncos front office. So laugh away.

I would bet almost anything that they aren't. Elway has proven pretty solidly now that he knows what he is doing, so I feel safe in assuming he isn't shopping Miller around.

[OrangeHoof]

I would table this discussion until after the season. Nobody would be pursuing Von and his contract right now (Indianpolis Colts and Oakland Raiders notwithstanding).

Once the suspension is served and we can see how Von plays the rest of the season, we can have a more rational evaluation. Just don't trade him for Aldon Smith.

[atwater27]

What is wrong with the conversation? Especially if he finds out about it? Maybe that would scare him straight.

[Northman]

You know what worse than only having one of the best defensive players in football for 10 games? Having one of the best defensive players in football for zero games.

I mean seriously, we are at worst going to be 5-1 when Von gets back and probably 6-0. I know you are going to use this to say "SEE, we don't need Von!", but the other way to look at it is wow, if we can go 6-0 without him, just imagine how unstoppable we would be with him.

I seriously don't get why you are so hellbent on us giving away the second best player on our team. You know we aren't going to get anything close to equal value for him right?

Who says im hellbent on giving him away? Im simply playing devil's advocate here. The guy is missing 6 games due to being a dumbass. Can he striaghten up? Sure? Could it get worse? Oh yea. The bottom line here is that you posted an article that stated his suspension was meaningless because Denver's defense is playing well. I commend the article on that and simply stated that if this type of play from these guys continue that Von could become expendable if he cant straighten his shit out. Its no use having a talented guy like him on the team if he is missing massive amounts of games just because he cant get his shit together. Thats all im saying. What good would it do if Von gets into more trouble and gets suspended for a year, a year in which we make the SB and he isnt there to contribute? There are plenty of uber talented players in the league who arent missing games throughout any given year for simply being a retarded mofo. Thats all im saying.

[BroncoWave]

I'd rather have Von for 10 games than whatever we would trade him for for 16 games. Unless what we trade him for is JJ Watt.

[Northman]

Let's do a hypothetical here. Let's say we win the super bowl this year in large part to contributions Miller makes for us. Let's just assume without him we would not have won the super bowl. Then let's say in the offseason he fails another drug test and gets suspended for a year.

Is there any Bronco fan who would be mad because we didn't trade him, even though that trade would have cost us a super bowl? I know I wouldn't be.

I like this post because its a good question. But look at my last post where i show/provide a different senario.

[atwater27]

Who says im hellbent on giving him away? Im simply playing devil's advocate here. The guy is missing 6 games due to being a dumbass. Can he striaghten up? Sure? Could it get worse? Oh yea. The bottom line here is that you posted an article that stated his suspension was meaningless because Denver's defense is playing well. I commend the article on that and simply stated that if this type of play from these guys continue that Von could become expendable if he cant straighten his shit out. Its no use having a talented guy like him on the team if he is missing massive amounts of games just because he cant get his shit together. Thats all im saying. What good would it do if Von gets into more trouble and gets suspended for a year, a year in which we make the SB and he isnt there to contribute? There are plenty of uber talented players in the league who arent missing games throughout any given year for simply being a retarded mofo. Thats all im saying.And THAT is the attitude that a responsible GM or front office guy has. You and I both know this conversation has happened in Dove Valley. And is continuing, to the chagrin of the fan sites.

[BroncoWave]

I like this post because its a good question. But look at my last post where i show/provide a different senario.

Fair enough, but I have to imagine that he will keep clean until at LEAST the offseason. Once he is away from the team and their supervision who knows, but I'm just going to assume that he stays clean until after the super bowl. If he can do that and he helps us win a title this year, I can't say I would be mad that we kept him if he gets himself suspended again in the offseason.

[MOtorboat]

They may have had the conversation. And then they all probably laughed and made Russell order some pizzas.

[TXBRONC]

What is wrong with the conversation? Especially if he finds out about it? Maybe that would scare him straight.

I would bet missing six games and having watch Denver win their first two without him has his attention.

[atwater27]

I'd rather have Von for 10 games than whatever we would trade him for for 16 games. Unless what we trade him for is JJ Watt.

I'd rather have a star outside linebacker who conducted himself responsibly on and off the field. Guess we can't have everything we want.

[MOtorboat]

"Let's trade the best defensive player in the league for 40 cents on the $1."

"LOL, OK, Matt. Can you order us some pizzas now?"

[Northman]

And THAT is the attitude that a responsible GM or front office guy has. You and I both know this conversation has happened in Dove Valley. And is continuing, to the chagrin of the fan sites.

I dont know if it is or isnt but i would have to think that there is a little concern there going forward. I dont think they will drop the hammer at this stage but i would not be surprised that if he continues to get into issues that will cost him time that they may part with him. What they get in return? No idea.

[atwater27]

"Let's trade the best defensive player in the league for 40 cents on the $1."

"LOL, OK, Matt. Can you order us some pizzas now?"
Yes, we saw the unfunny joke before; posting it again doesn't make it any funnier.

[Northman]

Yes, we saw the unfunny joke before; posting it again doesn't make it any funnier.

Give him a little credit, it was just small joke.

[BroncoWave]

Here's another question. What could we POSSIBLY trade Miller for that would help us win the Super Bowl THIS season. I think most Broncos fans would agree that this year is a golden opportunity for us to win a title. We are as stacked as we have ever been, and the AFC is incredibly weak. We may not have this good of a chance for a title for a long time. Given that, we need to do all we can to win it this season. If we were to trade Miller now, we would probably just get draft picks, which don't help us this season. Even if we got a player back, it would be a worse player than Miller, so that is also a net negative for this year.

Now you know what, if we win the title this year and Manning retires, THEN I could see entertaining the notion of trading Von in the offseason. Unless Oz is going to step right in and be elite, we probably won't be a SB contender again for a few years. Maybe at that point the FO sees the value in adding some first round picks and not risking losing Miller for a year. It's still not a trade I would make, but I could at least see the logic in entertaining it at that point.

Right now though, I see no logic in even thinking about it.

[atwater27]

I dont know if it is or isnt but i would have to think that there is a little concern there going forward. I dont think they will drop the hammer at this stage but i would not be surprised that if he continues to get into issues that will cost him time that they may part with him. What they get in return? No idea.

That is the funniest part of this conversation. But but but we will get nothing in return! That is not the issue here. With every dumb thing Von does, HE is the one hurting his value further. Nobody wants to be having this discussion. We all just want the guy to wise the **** up.

[atwater27]

Here's another question. What could we POSSIBLY trade Miller for that would help us win the Super Bowl THIS season. I think most Broncos fans would agree that this year is a golden opportunity for us to win a title. We are as stacked as we have ever been, and the AFC is incredibly weak. We may not have this good of a chance for a title for a long time. Given that, we need to do all we can to win it this season. If we were to trade Miller now, we would probably just get draft picks, which don't help us this season. Even if we got a player back, it would be a worse player than Miller, so that is also a net negative for this year.

Now you know what, if we win the title this year and Manning retires, THEN I could see entertaining the notion of trading Von in the offseason. Unless Oz is going to step right in and be elite, we probably won't be a SB contender again for a few years. Maybe at that point the FO sees the value in adding some first round picks and not risking losing Miller for a year. It's still not a trade I would make, but I could at least see the logic in entertaining it at that point.

Right now though, I see no logic in even thinking about it.

How bout a decent left tackle. #rimshot

[olathebroncofan]

This argument is crazy. Yes von has issues, and he is hurting the team despite us winning games. That didn't make him expendable. Regardless of why he is not playing, he is still an asset to the team.

When the Steelers went with out Ben at the beginning of the season a few years back, and still won with Charlie batch, would you have traded been then. No! Why?? Because he is your best player.

They did the best they could with what they had and when he got back, they were a better team. Same thing when von gets back. The defense will do the best the can until he gets back. And when he does, we will be better, plus we have guys that are out there trying to prove themselves in the wake of his absence. In the long run this will make our defense better.

Forgive my mistakes. Auto correct had not been kind this morning

[Northman]

When the Steelers went with out Ben at the beginning of the season a few years back, and still won with Charlie batch, would you have traded been then. No! Why?? Because he is your best player.



This has already been addressed. Being out due to injury is one thing, out because your a complete dumbass is something different entirely.

[Ravage!!!]

I think that the traffic violation, and driving without a license, is tainting people's memory on exactly what has happened. He's suspended for not taking a test (which was probably a way for him to get around taking it, granted). The not showing up for a speeding ticket and driving without a license isn't costing him time, but fans want to just cry "Omg, he's been SUCH A BAD DUDE in the offseason." He hasn't. It's just been an exaggerated situation where fans just love to pile on.

Give me the best defensive player in football that gets a speeding ticket, and lets not trade him because he didn't show up for a traffic violation, please.

[atwater27]

Yeah. And players get 6 game suspensions for speeding tickets and other minor traffic violations.

[BroncoWave]

I think that the traffic violation, and driving without a license, is tainting people's memory on exactly what has happened. He's suspended for not taking a test (which was probably a way for him to get around taking it, granted). The not showing up for a speeding ticket and driving without a license isn't costing him time, but fans want to just cry "Omg, he's been SUCH A BAD DUDE in the offseason." He hasn't. It's just been an exaggerated situation where fans just love to pile on.

Give me the best defensive player in football that gets a speeding ticket, and lets not trade him because he didn't show up for a traffic violation, please.

Seriously. If he were beating women or shooting up night clubs I'd see the logic in maybe wanting to dump him. But all of his transgressions have been relatively minor stuff that tens of thousands of twenty-something year old guys do every year. Most people grow out of it. I'd rather take our chances and assume that he does as well.

[Ravage!!!]

Seriously. If he were beating women or shooting up night clubs I'd see the logic in maybe wanting to dump him. But all of his transgressions have been relatively minor stuff that tens of thousands of twenty-something year old guys do every year. Most people grow out of it. I'd rather take our chances and assume that he does as well.

That, and it's fresh in the mind of avid fans. If the traffic violations had come at a different time, it would have been blown off. But because of the drug suspension its fresh and all people seem to remember is that Von's name is in the paper.

I just don't see the big deal of missing traffic court. It happens to SOOOOOOO many people, all the time. It happens to the smartest of people and the most responsible people. Its just traffic court. All this "it's disrespectful to the courts"....is SUCH a huge exaggeration.

My biggest concern is Von's need for the weed.

[SR]

How is it misleading? The sum total of points scored after 2 weeks is 50. That's just math. Essentially you are saying that it was only 43 points before it was 50 points... I love how this thread is basically the forum vs North.

Your post was just a little underhanded. The defense has played pretty well considering we are starting essentially a rookie safety, a new corner, and two undrafted corners in the secondary, no real pass rush to speak of, and without Von Miller. Sure, 50PA is kind of a lot, but considering the offense has scored 90 points in the same span, it doesn't really seem that bad.

[SR]

Not only that, but its not like we were the 2000 Ravens last year either.

Absolutely not. A good defense for sure, but not Earth Shattering by any means

[SR]

Me too. Its exciting.


Oh yeah. Uhh. You're wrong, and stupid, and we are all right.

[atwater27]

Seriously. If he were beating women or shooting up night clubs I'd see the logic in maybe wanting to dump him. But all of his transgressions have been relatively minor stuff that tens of thousands of twenty-something year old guys do every year. Most people grow out of it. I'd rather take our chances and assume that he does as well.

Show me one person in this entire thread who said they wanted to dump him. You keep on saying things that aren't so. Nobody wants to cut him or dump him. Nobody even WANTS to trade him. Just considering options, that's all. And hopefully, Von himself has entertained the concept in his mind.

[Poet]

Trade him to Cincinnati! DO IT!

The truth of it is that MAYBE you could absorb that hit to your team with Manning. But when PFM retires, you're going to feel the loss of VM far more. I just don't see you guys even entertaining trades, unless it's just insane. I suppose someone could pony up 2 firsts and a good player, or three first round picks, but I doubt that.

[MOtorboat]

King.

Serious question. What would you give up for Miller now. (Take off the fan hat for a second).

[Poet]

King.

Serious question. What would you give up for Miller now. (Take off the fan hat for a second).

Can I assume that I am running a 4-3 that would allow Miller to be used exactly as he is now, and that my DC is competent?

[atwater27]

Trade him to Cincinnati! DO IT!

The truth of it is that MAYBE you could absorb that hit to your team with Manning. But when PFM retires, you're going to feel the loss of VM far more. I just don't see you guys even entertaining trades, unless it's just insane. I suppose someone could pony up 2 firsts and a good player, or three first round picks, but I doubt that.

Geno for Von straight up. I'd rather have a DT anyway. :D

[MOtorboat]

Can I assume that I am running a 4-3 that would allow Miller to be used exactly as he is now, and that my DC is competent?

Whatever floats your boat.

[Poet]

Geno for Von straight up. I'd rather have a DT anyway. :D

NO!

[MOtorboat]

Yes, we saw the unfunny joke before; posting it again doesn't make it any funnier.

In your opinion.

[Poet]

Whatever floats your boat.

I would offer two first round picks, and a swap of second round picks that is favorable to us. If that did not work, I would offer a swap that was favorable to you. If that did not work I would offer the two first round picks, a second, and a fourth. I would never offer the third first round pick, unless it was a swap deal. That is what he is worth as a player, as he is clearly a top five defensive player, and looks to be a generational defining player.

[MOtorboat]

I would offer two first round picks, and a swap of second round picks that is favorable to us. If that did not work, I would offer a swap that was favorable to you. If that did not work I would offer the two first round picks, a second, and a fourth. I would never offer the third first round pick, unless it was a swap deal. That is what he is worth as a player, as he is clearly a top five defensive player, and looks to be a generational defining player.

You'd offer up that much for a player the league tried to suspend for a year and will only help your team in 10 games this season?

[Poet]

You'd offer up that much for a player the league tried to suspend for a year and will only help your team in 10 games this season?

Legitimately speaking, if Von Miller was on the Bengals, we would have the best defense in football, to the point that even the Hawks and Niners were far behind us. Cincinnati would become an actual Super Bowl contender. The last time that happened, I was a year old.

[Ravage!!!]

Geno for Von straight up. I'd rather have a DT anyway. :D

I wouldn't.

[BroncoWave]

JJ Watt is the only player in the league I would be happy with Denver making a 1-for-1 player trade for. I don't even think I'd consider anyone else.

[Northman]

Trade him to Cincinnati! DO IT!

The truth of it is that MAYBE you could absorb that hit to your team with Manning. But when PFM retires, you're going to feel the loss of VM far more. I just don't see you guys even entertaining trades, unless it's just insane. I suppose someone could pony up 2 firsts and a good player, or three first round picks, but I doubt that.

Give us Burfict and YOUR bag of cheetos and its a deal.

[BroncoWave]

Give us Burfict and YOUR bag of cheetos and its a deal.

Yeah, because Burfict doesn't have any character red flags or anything.

[Poet]

Give us Burfict and YOUR bag of cheetos and its a deal.

I was going to eat the damn bag of Doritos anyway! :tsk:

[Northman]

Yeah, because Burfict doesn't have any character red flags or anything.

Lol, i knew that was coming. Has Burfict missed any time? Just wondering.

[BroncoWave]

Lol, i knew that was coming. Has Burfict missed any time? Just wondering.

He was a first round talent who went undrafted because of his red flags. He's missed as many games in his first two seasons as Von Miller did.

[Poet]

Lol, i knew that was coming. Has Burfict missed any time? Just wondering.

Only for injuries. They're rough on him in Cincinnati.

Man, why is this not Madden?! I want Von Miller!!!!

[Northman]

He was a first round talent who went undrafted because of his red flags. He's missed as many games in his first two seasons as Von Miller did.


Only for injuries. They're rough on him in Cincinnati.

Man, why is this not Madden?! I want Von Miller!!!!


There you go, injury and not for being a dumbass. So Wavey Lay? Shut your piehole!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[BroncoWave]

Are you saying you would trade Miller for Burfict straight up North?

[Northman]

Are you saying you would trade Miller for Burfict straight up North?

No. Just goofing off. Maybe the Cheetos.

[Nomad]

I can't wait to see the defense when Von and Champ are back.

[SR]

Yeah, because Burfict doesn't have any character red flags or anything.

He's been pretty good since he got to the NFL. Hasn't been suspended yet...more than Von can say...

[BroncoWave]

He's been pretty good since he got to the NFL. Hasn't been suspended yet...more than Von can say...

But the risk still exists for him. If we were to actually trade Von because of his character issues, we would look REALLY dumb if the guy we traded him for also got himself into trouble.

[SR]

But the risk still exists for him. If we were to actually trade Von because of his character issues, we would look REALLY dumb if the guy we traded him for also got himself into trouble.

I think Burfict is less of a flight risk than Miller anymore. Last year at this time I wouldn't have said that but we have all see Miller's penchant for bad choices. I'm not saying I would trade Miller for Burfict at all, but I am comparing their behavior.

[Nomad]

I wouldn't blame Elway for having Von on a very short leash when he comes back regardless of his talent. I'm hoping this is the last time we hear of Von Miller's name in a negative manner by the League.

[wayninja]

Your post was just a little underhanded. The defense has played pretty well considering we are starting essentially a rookie safety, a new corner, and two undrafted corners in the secondary, no real pass rush to speak of, and without Von Miller. Sure, 50PA is kind of a lot, but considering the offense has scored 90 points in the same span, it doesn't really seem that bad.

Nobody said the defense didn't play well, the referred poster simply said this isn't the 85 bears. I don't see how either post was misleading or underhanded. Giving up a touchdown in garbage time still counts, and I guarantee you they didn't 'let' the Giants score.

The 90 points scored isn't really relevant to the 50 points allowed. We've won because of that, but the original premise that the defense is far from perfect even without Miller, is true. I agree they've played better than expected, but hardly good enough to dismiss Von.

[RebelRocker]

A lot of you supporting Von are missing this one fact

He's ONE slip away from a year long suspension

That means we get NOTHING from him for a whole year
and we lose whatever guaranteed money we give to him

At this point, I think we let him play out his rookie deal then slap the franchise tag on him for a year or two
if we're still concerned about his off field behavior, then maybe we let him walk or do a sign and
Trade

Unless somebody gives us a kings ransom for him right now, just milk his contract for all it's worth and hoping his decision making improves is the best thing for us to do right now

Anybody who thinks we should give him a big money deal right now is beyond
stupid

[BroncoWave]

A lot of you supporting Von are missing this one fact

He's ONE slip away from a year long suspension

That means we get NOTHING from him for a whole year
and we lose whatever guaranteed money we give to him

At this point, I think we let him play out his rookie deal then slap the franchise tag on him for a year or two
if we're still concerned about his off field behavior, then maybe we let him walk or do a sign and
Trade

Unless somebody gives us a kings ransom for him right now, just milk his contract for all it's worth and hoping his decision making improves is the best thing for us to do right now

Anybody who thinks we should give him a big money deal right now is beyond
stupid

I don't think a single person has suggested giving him a big money contract now.

[RebelRocker]

I don't think a single person has suggested giving him a big money contract now.

The support of Von has given the impression that he should be a long term Bronco, which means
we'd give him a big money deal

[BroncoWave]

The support of Von has given the impression that he should be a long term Bronco, which means
we'd give him a big money deal

I think you are reading into something that isn't there. The support of Von is that we don't want to just give away an elite defensive player. Having said that, I think most of us realize the risk in giving him a big deal right now too. I think most of us would agree with your position of at LEAST letting this season play out and waiting until next year to even think about his contract.

[wayninja]

I hate to be the one to say this but Von is already the most dominant defensive player that has ever worn a broncos uniform. He's that good.

He definitely has the potential, but as of this point in history, I wouldn't even put Von in the top 5 most dominant defensive players that have ever worn orange and blue.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The fact that we can even have this discussion says a lot about Von, but he's no hall of famer yet.

[Ravage!!!]

The support of Von has given the impression that he should be a long term Bronco, which means
we'd give him a big money deal

I don't know when his contract is up for negotiations, but yes, I give him a big money deal. Great players get big money, that's the NFL. If you don't want to pay top money, you will never have top talent.

As far as the concerns on his suspensions and getting "guaranteed" money back... you must not have been watching the papers because teams get money back if players are suspended due to character issues all the time. It's not hard to put into his contract that suspensions due to drugs would require he pay money back to the Broncos.

So this "we don't get it"..and "we are idiots" for thinking he should get big money is just incorrect, and most probably, young ignorance. I support the notion of keeping the best defensive OLB in the NFL. I absolutely support that.

[wayninja]

I don't know when his contract is up for negotiations, but yes, I give him a big money deal. Great players get big money, that's the NFL. If you don't want to pay top money, you will never have top talent.

As far as the concerns on his suspensions and getting "guaranteed" money back... you must not have been watching the papers because teams get money back if players are suspended due to character issues all the time. It's not hard to put into his contract that suspensions due to drugs would require he pay money back to the Broncos.

So this "we don't get it"..and "we are idiots" for thinking he should get big money is just incorrect, and most probably, young ignorance. I support the notion of keeping the best defensive OLB in the NFL. I absolutely support that.

I wouldn't mind paying him big money if he comes out of his suspension, plays well and flies right. It's just not a decision that needs to be made now. Who knows what will happen during the season?

If he gets himself in trouble again or plays like ass, may be time to reconsider the 'big money'.

[BroncoWave]

I don't know when his contract is up for negotiations, but yes, I give him a big money deal. Great players get big money, that's the NFL. If you don't want to pay top money, you will never have top talent.

As far as the concerns on his suspensions and getting "guaranteed" money back... you must not have been watching the papers because teams get money back if players are suspended due to character issues all the time. It's not hard to put into his contract that suspensions due to drugs would require he pay money back to the Broncos.

So this "we don't get it"..and "we are idiots" for thinking he should get big money is just incorrect, and most probably, young ignorance. I support the notion of keeping the best defensive OLB in the NFL. I absolutely support that.

Next season is the last year of his contract. Assuming he comes back, plays well over the last 10 games and keeps his nose clean, we will probably negotiate his next contract this offseason. And there is really no reason not to. Big contracts have way less risk in the NFL than in other sports. If he does get suspended for a season, we can recoup a lot of that big contract and also release him if need be.

[atwater27]

we don't want to just give away an elite defensive player.

3525

[Ravage!!!]

I wouldn't mind paying him big money if he comes out of his suspension, plays well and flies right. It's just not a decision that needs to be made now. Who knows what will happen during the season?

If he gets himself in trouble again or plays like ass, may be time to reconsider the 'big money'.

Well, yeah. I mean, if by the end of this year he already gets a full season suspension, then we dont' have to make a decision until 2015! :lol:

but obviously what you said is true. But at the end of this year, I offer him a long-term contract.

[TXBRONC]

3525

That's funny friendo.

[Jsteve01]

team has an option on year five as well. that's the benefit of drafting a guy in the late first vs the early second. similar money and if you like the guy's potential you get an extra year on that rookie deal

[Davii]

team has an option on year five as well. that's the benefit of drafting a guy in the late first vs the early second. similar money and if you like the guy's potential you get an extra year on that rookie deal

There's also the franchise tag, etc. We don't HAVE to do a new contract for 3-4 years.

Either way, there will certainly be language in the contract protecting the team's investment. If he gets suspended on a new contract I guarantee there's a clause in the contract where Von would be paying back pro-rated bonus money and losing game checks, etc.

[claymore]

I think you said that about the Cutler trade too......

At the time, I was right. :)

[Northman]

At the time, I was right. :)

Only in your mind Clay. Only in your mind. :)

[claymore]

Only in your mind Clay. Only in your mind. :)

Id like to hear of another mess that was worse.

[BroncoWave]

Id like to hear of another mess that was worse.

We won the same number of games the year after we traded Cutler as we did the year before. :)

[LTC Pain]

There's also the franchise tag, etc. We don't HAVE to do a new contract for 3-4 years.

Either way, there will certainly be language in the contract protecting the team's investment. If he gets suspended on a new contract I guarantee there's a clause in the contract where Von would be paying back pro-rated bonus money and losing game checks, etc.

If Miller's troubles continue, I don't see the Broncos using the franhcise tag. If anything, Miller's conduct is hurting his market value and the Broncos may seek a reduced contract. We will see what dumbassery Miller can avoid until that next contract.

[claymore]

We won the same number of games the year after we traded Cutler as we did the year before. :)

Howd that work out for us?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If Miller's troubles continue, I don't see the Broncos using the franhcise tag. If anything, Miller's conduct is hurting his market value and the Broncos may seek a reduced contract. We will see what dumbassery Miller can avoid until that next contract.

If he avoids said dumbassery, how will we see it? :D

[CoachChaz]

Howd that work out for us?

Well...eventually it put us in a position to draft Demaryius and Von.

[TXBRONC]

Howd that work out for us?

What BTB won't mention is that Denver started off the season 6-0 then proceeded to lose 8 of it's next 10 games. The last four game losing actually stretched into the next season making it five game losing streak. But you won't hear that from BTB all he'll do argue for sake of arguing.

[BroncoWave]

What BTB won't mention is that Denver started off the season 6-0 then proceeded to lose 8 of it's next 10 games. The last four game losing actually stretched into the next season making it five game losing streak. But you won't hear that from BTB all he'll do argue for sake of arguing.

What BW was doing was having a little fun with Clay. Hence, why I haven't continued to argue after that one post.

But please, don't let that stop you in your obsession without pointing out every posting flaw of mine.

[claymore]

Well...eventually it put us in a position to draft Demaryius and Von.

Those 2 guys arent worht the pain of McD. When you look at it as a whole, it was worth it, but those 2 are only a couple pieces of the puzzle. Elway has done one hell of a bangup job fixing the mess that McD created.

[claymore]

What BTB won't mention is that Denver started off the season 6-0 then proceeded to lose 8 of it's next 10 games. The last four game losing actually stretched into the next season making it five game losing streak. But you won't hear that from BTB all he'll do argue for sake of arguing.


What BW was doing was having a little fun with Clay. Hence, why I haven't continued to argue after that one post.

But please, don't let that stop you in your obsession without pointing out every posting flaw of mine.
I didnt know BW was BTB. I hate name changes!!! What up BTB!!!

[TXBRONC]

What BW was doing was having a little fun with Clay. Hence, why I haven't continued to argue after that one post.

But please, don't let that stop you in your obsession without pointing out every posting flaw of mine.

Obsession? No you're butt hurt as usual. I hardly ever respond to your posts directly or indirectly.

Btw didn't you whine about you were going to put me on ignore because I'm only one who argues with you? If anyone has obsession with stock other posters and needling them it's you.

New Beginning? That's a joke right?

[BroncoWave]

I didnt know BW was BTB. I hate name changes!!! What up BTB!!!

Sorry Clay! I figured everyone knew at this point. Just decided to shake things up a little bit. Seems like I've started a little trend though with these "AGap" and "ShaneFalco" characters.

[claymore]

Sorry Clay! I figured everyone knew at this point. Just decided to shake things up a little bit. Seems like I've started a little trend though with these "AGap" and "ShaneFalco" characters.

I spotted AGap right away. His posting style is unmistakable. :|

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Well...eventually it put us in a position to draft Demaryius and Von.

.....and signe one FA by the name of Manning. I think 99% of Denver fans love it that way, but there are still those that have a man crush on Jay Cutler's arm (not referrencing anyone in this thread).

[claymore]

.....and signe one FA by the name of Manning. I think 99% of Denver fans love it that way, but there are still those that have a man crush on Jay Cutler's arm (not referrencing anyone in this thread).

I think we all love our current situation, but it wasnt a one for one swap. There were a few major miracles that had to happen to get us here. In all honesty, there are 31 other franchises that would still be screwed. #7 saved us.

[Joel]

We were up 41-16 against the Giants. Your 50 points against comment is a bit misleading considering the context of how the scores actually went.
That really make it better? It means our Prevent gave up TDs even when we knew the other guys would always pass. Us doing that is why one of those teams got an extra Lombardi while we watched on TV.


What is wrong with the conversation? Especially if he finds out about it? Maybe that would scare him straight.
Granted, the guy's got lots of free time right now, but he's probably not spending any of it here. Although if it distracts him from rolling up another, I kind of hope he is.


This has already been addressed. Being out due to injury is one thing, out because your a complete dumbass is something different entirely.
A six game suspension for rape, reduced to four, counts as being "a complete dumbass" (among other things.) Says a lot about the NFLs priorities, too.


Can I assume that I am running a 4-3 that would allow Miller to be used exactly as he is now, and that my DC is competent?
Actually, he'd almost certainly be better as a 3-4 OLB, which is what he was in college. 4-3 Sams don't traditionally blitz much; their main job is usually being big and strong enough to get through blocking TEs and bring down runners, which is why they're usually too slow to cover, sometimes even too slow to blitz effectively. Miller's severly overqualified for what's essentially a run-stuffer who's first off the field in nickel and dime, hence he plays DE in those sets. He's a Pro Bowler as a 4-3 Sam; he would only be better as 3-4 OLB.

For whatever it's worth, by the way, I'm still saying the Bengals are the class of their division this year; the statement just has (slightly) more evidence than it did three weeks ago.


team has an option on year five as well. that's the benefit of drafting a guy in the late first vs the early second. similar money and if you like the guy's potential you get an extra year on that rookie deal
Second overall is "late" first now? :tongue:

Don't teams have the option of including morals clauses that partly or fully void contracts if violated? If Goodell's really serious about turning the NFL into Boy Scouts (he's not, but for the sake of argument) that seems the ideal solution: It not only allows but encourages teams to severly penalize misbehaving players; serious infractions not only cost them hundreds of thousands for suspensions, but millions for fully or partly voided contracts. Why should the whole team eat a major cap hit for one talented boneheads screw up, especially if there was no warning?

That would solve the Miller problem and so many others: Give him his big payday, with the stipulation he must give it all back if he goes full-on Ricky Williams. If he doesn't like it he can always hold out for a trade or release, but at this point pretty much NO ONE will sign him without that stipulation given the chance.

[Poet]

Joel, either you didn't realize that Cincinnati is a 4-3 team, or you really just went off on a tangent for the hell of it.

[LTC Pain]

Miller is meaningless until he gets his head out and contributes on the field. Von who?

[MOtorboat]

Joel, either you didn't realize that Cincinnati is a 4-3 team, or you really just went off on a tangent for the hell of it.

Simeon Rice.

Just remember that when Joel says 4-3 Sams can't do what Miller does...

[Simple Jaded]

Simeon Rice.

Just remember that when Joel says 4-3 Sams can't do what Miller does...

Kamerion Wimbly and Brian Orakpo did the exact same thing before Miller came to the NFL. Mathias Kiwanuka too.

[TXBRONC]

Joel, either you didn't realize that Cincinnati is a 4-3 team, or you really just went off on a tangent for the hell of it.

Both is also an option.

[MOtorboat]

Kamerion Wimbly and Brian Orakpo did the exact same thing before Miller came to the NFL. Mathias Kiwanuka too.

Tampa got famous for the "Tampa 2."

The real innovation was the use of over front...

[Simple Jaded]

Tampa got famous for the "Tampa 2."

The real innovation was the use of over front...

I probably should read Joel's post. Maybe later.

[Poet]

Sorry Clay! I figured everyone knew at this point. Just decided to shake things up a little bit. Seems like I've started a little trend though with these "AGap" and "ShaneFalco" characters.

I'm changing my name to Baconator BengalGod

[BroncoWave]

I'm changing my name to Baconator BengalGod

It would be kinda funny if this started a huge avalanche of name changes. I'd feel sorry for any poor soul who has taken a break from the boards for a while and comes back lost and confused.

[Ravage!!!]

Simeon Rice.

Just remember that when Joel says 4-3 Sams can't do what Miller does...


Kamerion Wimbly and Brian Orakpo did the exact same thing before Miller came to the NFL. Mathias Kiwanuka too.


Tampa got famous for the "Tampa 2."

The real innovation was the use of over front...

Wait a minute. So you guys are saying that reading the definitions of defenses on Wiki isn't how it always works in the NFL???? :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

... but there are still those that have a man crush on Jay Cutler's arm (not referrencing anyone in this thread).

"You don't trade away a Jay Cutler."

-John Elway

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

"You don't trade away a Jay Cutler."

-John Elway

Don't get me wrong Ravage. I didn't think it was a good idea at the time, but I don't believe for a minute we would be as good as we are if he was still on the team.