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Denver Native (Carol)
08-29-2013, 10:24 AM
From the day he accepted a chance to earn a reduced role with the Broncos, Quentin Jammer has brought honor and professionalism to what a lesser man would consider an undignified situation.

The Broncos' preseason finale Thursday night against the Arizona Cardinals will mark the first time in Jammer's 12-year NFL career that he will play in the dreaded fourth exhibition game.

He was a preseason holdout as a rookie. And he was a San Diego Chargers starting cornerback in the 10 seasons since.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23968516/broncos-cornerback-quentin-jammer-battles-keep-career-alive

pnbronco
08-29-2013, 11:05 AM
I can finally enjoy this game. Mike Adams is a buddy and he has been on every bubble list till this one. I know how hard Sat is on me I can't imagine how tough it is on all the guys that know today is about playing for their job. I can't only hope that there are no injuries today.

Broncolingus
08-29-2013, 12:25 PM
From the little I've seen, I've liked Jammer more than Bolden this preseason...

LTC Pain
08-29-2013, 12:27 PM
Jammer hasn't shown much and Elway likes his draft picks. Jammer gets cut and Bolden makes the 53 man roster.

Joel
08-29-2013, 03:30 PM
I had no love for Jammer as a Bolt, but had he started next to Adams last year we'd have hosted the Conference Championship, and everyone here knows it. Again, the primary reason I wanted Champ at safety wasn't age catching up with him at CB or even our many other quality CBs, but our utter lack of quality safeties apart from Adams. Now, if Jammer just absolutely can't make the transistion from CB, that's one thing, but passing over his decade of tangible high performance for the hypothetical potential of guys like Bolden... well, how long can Manning and Champ wait for that potential to be realized...?

Good luck to him, and all the guys in orange and blue. If Bolden, Moore or anyone else out-competes Jammer for the job, more power to him and let's keep the best 53. I just hope we aren't going to try a title run by dismissing proven playmakers for guys who might be good eventually, some day—maybe. Guys like that are why we have a PS.

Jsteve01
08-29-2013, 03:50 PM
null other than "the play".. Moore outplayed Adams allyear. I'm getting kind of tired of all this revisionist history about how poorly moore played he was top 10 in the league last year in first downs allowed and touchdowns allowed you don't fake those numbers

Rick
08-29-2013, 03:50 PM
Not to start a riot or get too far off track but people need to get off the whole Moore is the reason we lost bit.

Moore may have been the icing...but he didn't throw any INTs nor did he personally give up all 38 points. The BRONCOS lost that game.

Now..to get myself back on track, I think Bolden should get the nod over Jammer for developmental purposes. Jammer/Bolden would be the 5th or 6th CB on this team, to me CB 5 and 6 should be guys who are young and can develop more, a vet wouldn't step in THAT much at 5 or 6 anyway.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-29-2013, 03:52 PM
Not to start a riot or get too far off track but people need to get off the whole Moore is the reason we lost bit.

Moore may have been the icing...but he didn't throw any INTs nor did he personally give up all 38 points. The BRONCOS lost that game.

Now..to get myself back on track, I think Bolden should get the nod over Jammer for developmental purposes. Jammer/Bolden would be the 5th or 6th CB on this team, to me CB 5 and 6 should be guys who are young and can develop more, a vet wouldn't step in THAT much at 5 or 6 anyway.

Usually you keep guys for development when they show the propencity for making plays. I don't know that we've seen that from him.

Joel
08-29-2013, 04:55 PM
other than "the play".. Moore outplayed Adams allyear. I'm getting kind of tired of all this revisionist history about how poorly moore played he was top 10 in the league last year in first downs allowed and touchdowns allowed you don't fake those numbers
I recall no "the plays" for Adams last year, or the previous one. Safety is inherently one of those positions where bad plays are bigger than good ones, because they're the last line of defense (hence "safety." :tongue: )

So guys can and do successfully defend a dozen Hail Marys only to be remembered for the one they missed that cost the game, or the season. Everson Walls was a four time Pro Bowler, is tied with Champ and Deion for most career Pro Bowl picks, and with Ed Reed for most seasons as NFL pick leader. He even saved a TD and his only SB (with the Giants) by tackling Thurman Thomas. Does anyone recall any of that when they think of Everson Walls? No: They remember "The Catch" his rookie year, the ONE play that simultaneously ended the decade-dynasty of Landrys Cowboys and began that of Walsh '9ers.

Now, if a guy who played CB all but his last three seasons (but won his only SB as a converted safety; apparently it CAN be done ;)) is best remembered for one season-ending play his rookie year, how much more critical is one season-ending play for a second year player whose primary job description is "don't give up a big play"?

Guys like Atwater and Lynch made safeties more positively prominent, and Moore appears to be among the many safeties who see themselves in a similar role, but when it comes to coverage, safety remains a position where anonymity is a good thing, because it means there haven't been any memorable screw ups. Folks used to complain Nick Ferguson and Sam Brandon knocked down too many passes instead of intercepting them, but, ultimately, knocking down Hail Maries is better than blowing won games trying for picks. Favres last SB XXXII pass wasn't picked—but was still his LAST pass, which was all that mattered. ;)

No, Moore didn't lose that game by himself; our HoF CB was burned for two TD bombs of his own long before that, and our HoF QB lost the ball three times, the last one handing Baltimore an easy game winning FG. However, just as Moores one bad play wouldn't have mattered without all those others, all those others wouldn't have mattered without his.

Jsteve01
08-29-2013, 07:35 PM
I recall no "the plays" for Adams last year, or the previous one. Safety is inherently one of those positions where bad plays are bigger than good ones, because they're the last line of defense (hence "safety." :tongue: )

So guys can and do successfully defend a dozen Hail Marys only to be remembered for the one they missed that cost the game, or the season. Everson Walls was a four time Pro Bowler, is tied with Champ and Deion for most career Pro Bowl picks, and with Ed Reed for most seasons as NFL pick leader. He even saved a TD and his only SB (with the Giants) by tackling Thurman Thomas. Does anyone recall any of that when they think of Everson Walls? No: They remember "The Catch" his rookie year, the ONE play that simultaneously ended the decade-dynasty of Landrys Cowboys and began that of Walsh '9ers.

Now, if a guy who played CB all but his last three seasons (but won his only SB as a converted safety; apparently it CAN be done ;)) is best remembered for one season-ending play his rookie year, how much more critical is one season-ending play for a second year player whose primary job description is "don't give up a big play"?

Guys like Atwater and Lynch made safeties more positively prominent, and Moore appears to be among the many safeties who see themselves in a similar role, but when it comes to coverage, safety remains a position where anonymity is a good thing, because it means there haven't been any memorable screw ups. Folks used to complain Nick Ferguson and Sam Brandon knocked down too many passes instead of intercepting them, but, ultimately, knocking down Hail Maries is better than blowing won games trying for picks. Favres last SB XXXII pass wasn't picked—but was still his LAST pass, which was all that mattered. ;)

No, Moore didn't lose that game by himself; our HoF CB was burned for two TD bombs of his own long before that, and our HoF QB lost the ball three times, the last one handing Baltimore an easy game winning FG. However, just as Moores one bad play wouldn't have mattered without all those others, all those others wouldn't have mattered without his. i'll admit, I just scanned the post but here's the rub. Mike Adams wasn't better than Moore last year as you asserted and Jammer himself in the article said he just wasn't getting it safety so I'm still confused as to the point you're trying to make. The play made me sick and still does, i just don't get the assertion that Moore is garbage because of the play. He played better all season than Adams, Gave up fewer plays in coverage. One terrible play doesn't erase that. Now this year he must take the next step and start making more plays on the ball. It has to happen or we'll have to find someone who will because our back line hasn't turned the ball over for us in years.

Joel
08-29-2013, 09:39 PM
i'll admit, I just scanned the post but here's the rub. Mike Adams wasn't better than Moore last year as you asserted and Jammer himself in the article said he just wasn't getting it safety so I'm still confused as to the point you're trying to make. The play made me sick and still does, i just don't get the assertion that Moore is garbage because of the play. He played better all season than Adams, Gave up fewer plays in coverage. One terrible play doesn't erase that. Now this year he must take the next step and start making more plays on the ball. It has to happen or we'll have to find someone who will because our back line hasn't turned the ball over for us in years.
Again, if Jammer's not getting it that's one thing; we've got lots of good CBs but few good safeties, so another good CB who can't play safety brings little to the table (and Jammers seniority carries a heavy price tag.) I'll take your word Adams gave up more plays than Moore, but I sure don't remember many, unless we're counting things like allowing a 12 yd reception on 4th and 20.

The idea we should just hope our starters at key positions improve, and replace them later this year (or whenever) if we don't scares me though, because we have a very narrow rapidly closing window of opportunity to win a title before PFM and Champ are gone.

SR
08-29-2013, 09:52 PM
I had no love for Jammer as a Bolt, but had he started next to Adams last year we'd have hosted the Conference Championship, and everyone here knows it. Again, the primary reason I wanted Champ at safety wasn't age catching up with him at CB or even our many other quality CBs, but our utter lack of quality safeties apart from Adams. Now, if Jammer just absolutely can't make the transistion from CB, that's one thing, but passing over his decade of tangible high performance for the hypothetical potential of guys like Bolden... well, how long can Manning and Champ wait for that potential to be realized...?

Good luck to him, and all the guys in orange and blue. If Bolden, Moore or anyone else out-competes Jammer for the job, more power to him and let's keep the best 53. I just hope we aren't going to try a title run by dismissing proven playmakers for guys who might be good eventually, some day—maybe. Guys like that are why we have a PS.

You're high.

Jsteve01
08-30-2013, 12:10 AM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/30/signature-stats-first-downs-allowed-safeties/

As you can see Moore was top ten in both categories. Adams not so much

Jsteve01
08-30-2013, 12:16 AM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/30/signature-stats-first-downs-allowed-safeties/

As you can see Moore was top ten in both categories. Adams not so much

He was also very high in tackling efficiency. IE he didn't miss many tackles.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/01/signature-stat-snapshot-tackling-efficiency-dbs/

Joel
08-30-2013, 11:07 AM
I've long preferred Football Outsiders, and not because they tell a very different tale here (though that's a nice perk.) Adams is ahead of Moore in all but one statistical category, often by a large margin.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/27161/rahim-moore
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/15301/mike-adams

The raw basic stats, while obviously not normalized for number of opportunities/targeting, favor Adams just as starkly:

Rahim Moore


Year
Team
Pos
G
GS
Total Tkl
Tkl
Ast
Sacks
Int
IntTD
PD
FF
FR
FumTD
Pen
PenYd


2012
DEN
FS
16
15
71
59
12
1.0
1
0
7
0
1
0
2
30


Mike Adams


Year
Team
Pos
G
GS
Total Tkl
Tkl
Ast
Sacks
Int
IntTD
PD
FF
FR
FumTD
Pen
PenYd


2012
DEN
FS
16
16
80
60
20
1.0
0
0
12
2
2
0
3
39



In on more start, Adams had 1 more solo and 8 more assisted tackles, equal sacks, 1 less pick, 5 more deflections, 2 more forced fumbles, 1 more recovery and 1 more penalty for 9 more yds. Either one pick and penalty are a lot more valuable than they look, or Adams was far more productive in 2012.

At first glance the difference between PFF and FOs ranking seems to be that PFF graded safety performance per SNAP and FO graded it per TARGET. Moore had almost 100 more snaps than Adams (despite starting one less game,) but Adams was targeted almost twice as much. Obviously guys give up more TD, first downs and yds when thrown at than when not.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-30-2013, 11:09 AM
The strong safety should have more tackles than the FS.

Joel
08-30-2013, 03:44 PM
The strong safety should have more tackles than the FS.
He did, at least on paper, but the distinction between them increasingly seems only nominal. Free safeties keep playing more like strong safeties, forcing strong safeties to provide more coverage, and their stats support that pattern with Moore and Adams. It was really noticeable with Lynch, especially as he slowed with age, because he was always listed as FS but always played like SS. Hence Ferguson and Brandon knocked down lots of passes at SS and fans complained they shoud've had more picks instead of being grateful our SS DIDN'T surrender more catches.

The stats say SS Adams allows a lower percentage of catches when targeted, and FS Moore's a better tackler. Either Fox and Del Rio are playing them out of position, or each safetys particular title means little.

Simple Jaded
08-31-2013, 12:11 PM
Jammer struggled to make transition to S, l heard they moved him back to CB.......highlighting one major reason I thought the idea of moving Bailey to S (at any time in the last 5 years) completely asinine.

Jsteve01
08-31-2013, 01:44 PM
Jammer struggled to make transition to S, l heard they moved him back to CB.......highlighting one major reason I thought the idea of moving Bailey to S (at any time in the last 5 years) completely asinine. you mean like Braxton, Woodson, or Woodson struggled? Or how about Malcolm Jenkins who has played at a pro bowl level since the switch? Just checkin lol

Joel
08-31-2013, 02:14 PM
you mean like Braxton, Woodson, or Woodson struggled? Or how about Malcolm Jenkins who has played at a pro bowl level since the switch? Just checkin lol
Or, as previously noted, Everson Walls. Famous for surrendering The Catch as a rookie CB, and one of only two CBs to lead the NFL in picks 3 different seasons, he played his last 3 and won a SB as a SAFETY. It's not a given any CB can do it, but top CBs have the top talent to make the transition likely for many. We're not talking about moving a WR to OG; the positions are closely related.

Simple Jaded
08-31-2013, 11:04 PM
you mean like Braxton, Woodson, or Woodson struggled? Or how about Malcolm Jenkins who has played at a pro bowl level since the switch? Just checkin lol

Thanks for playing The Exception To The Rule Game, Steve, tell him what he's won Johnny. Those players made the switch cause they couldn't play CB, fools have been moving Bailey to S for years.

Jsteve01
09-01-2013, 12:05 AM
Thanks for playing The Exception To The Rule Game, Steve, tell him what he's won Johnny. Those players made the switch cause they couldn't play CB, fools have been moving Bailey to S for years. the argument has much more legitimacy now than in years past. We all saw that he didn't have the long speed he once did in a few instances last year. I'm not saying he's done. i'm just saying when corners fall off, it happens fast and it normally starts with nagging injuries. Also, you're not really coming at this the way you started to. First it was that Jammer not being able to make the transition easily from CB to safety was part of the argument against moving Champ. now it's just that Champ shouldn't be moved because he's still on top of his game?

MOtorboat
09-01-2013, 12:29 AM
the argument has much more legitimacy now than in years past. We all saw that he didn't have the long speed he once did in a few instances last year. I'm not saying he's done. i'm just saying when corners fall off, it happens fast and it normally starts with nagging injuries. Also, you're not really coming at this the way you started to. First it was that Jammer not being able to make the transition easily from CB to safety was part of the argument against moving Champ. now it's just that Champ shouldn't be moved because he's still on top of his game?

I'm thinking Bailey is at about 5 percent of the change to safety.

Simple Jaded
09-01-2013, 12:34 AM
the argument has much more legitimacy now than in years past. We all saw that he didn't have the long speed he once did in a few instances last year. I'm not saying he's done. i'm just saying when corners fall off, it happens fast and it normally starts with nagging injuries. Also, you're not really coming at this the way you started to. First it was that Jammer not being able to make the transition easily from CB to safety was part of the argument against moving Champ. now it's just that Champ shouldn't be moved because he's still on top of his game?

My post was about the talk of moving Champ while he's at the top of his game. Why move a Top5 CB from a position you know he can excel at to a position that we have no idea if he can even start at? I never said whether he could or not, I just never saw the logic in trying.

Just because he can it doesn't mean he should, anyway.

Jsteve01
09-01-2013, 12:35 AM
I'm thinking Bailey is at about 5 percent of the change to safety.

I'm sorry what does this mean?

Jsteve01
09-01-2013, 12:35 AM
My post was about the talk of moving Champ while he's at the top of his game. Why move a Top5 CB from a position you know he can excel at to a position that we have no idea if he can even start at? I never said whether he could or not, I just never saw the logic in trying.

Just because he can it doesn't mean he should, anyway. gotcha

HORSEPOWER 56
09-01-2013, 06:33 AM
Folks keep using the playoff game as justification to move Champ to Safety. How many CBs get beaten deep every week? How many did DT feast on last year? No Champ's not a spring chicken anymore, but he's still a damned good CB.

Until the playoff game, he'd only given up 1 TD all season. Torrie Smith is one of the fastest WRs in the league. The two long TDs were just as much a problem with the scheme. After the first one, they should've given Champ help over the top. They didn't so it happened again. Every CB gets beaten from time to time. Or even has a bad game. Even Revis and Deion. Doesn't mean they should get switched to Safety...

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2013, 09:46 AM
Folks keep using the playoff game as justification to move Champ to Safety. How many CBs get beaten deep every week? How many did DT feast on last year? No Champ's not a spring chicken anymore, but he's still a damned good CB.

Until the playoff game, he'd only given up 1 TD all season. Torrie Smith is one of the fastest WRs in the league. The two long TDs were just as much a problem with the scheme. After the first one, they should've given Champ help over the top. They didn't so it happened again. Every CB gets beaten from time to time. Or even has a bad game. Even Revis and Deion. Doesn't mean they should get switched to Safety...

People don't seem to understand that if you're playing press coverage and miss the jamb you're going to get beat deep by Torrey Smith. Champ might not have 4.2 speed anymore, but he's still fast enough to be a #1 corner.

cmhargrove
09-04-2013, 01:47 PM
other than "the play".. Moore outplayed Adams allyear. I'm getting kind of tired of all this revisionist history about how poorly moore played he was top 10 in the league last year in first downs allowed and touchdowns allowed you don't fake those numbers

I have high hopes for Moore this year and think he played pretty well last year, but he needs to keep improving or this team will suffer. I think that if you go back and rewatch the Texans game from last year, you would agree that Moore blew his assignments on a couple TD bombs. They dropped a couple passes in the deep middle, and Adams was seen pointing and yelling to Moore.

Moore grew a lot from his first year to second. Hopefully the gravity of the Ravens playoff loss has focused him even more.

cmhargrove
09-04-2013, 01:54 PM
Back to Jammer, I have very low hopes that he can contribute at safety. He is a corner, and I think everyone sees that he won't make that "late career transition" to Safety. I think he can be very serviceable depth if he doesn't have to run too deep with speedy WR's. His short yardage and press coverage has been pretty tight and he has good instincts. My main complaint is that he seems to compensate for his lack of speed with early and questionable contact. I think he might draw a few penalties while he is in there - but if the flags fall our way, he should be a good safety net.

Joel
09-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Now that Champ's definitely scrubbed for tomorrow I wonder what that does to Jammers potential playing time. Who are our "starting" nickel and dimebacks?

SR
09-04-2013, 07:27 PM
Now that Champ's definitely scrubbed for tomorrow I wonder what that does to Jammers potential playing time. Who are our "starting" nickel and dimebacks?

Tony Carter will be the starting nickel corner.

Dzone
09-04-2013, 07:49 PM
We wont need Champ, Von Miller or Dumervil

Jsteve01
09-04-2013, 08:41 PM
Now that Champ's definitely scrubbed for tomorrow I wonder what that does to Jammers potential playing time. Who are our "starting" nickel and dimebacks?

I would think based on preseason that Webster will be in the big nickel and dime back role. He's a physical dude. I honestly don't expect to see much of Jammer.

SR
09-04-2013, 08:43 PM
I would think based on preseason that Webster will be in the big nickel and dime back role. He's a physical dude. I honestly don't expect to see much of Jammer.

Dime maybe but with Harris moving to RCB, I would expect to see Carter as the starting nickel back.

Bosco
09-04-2013, 08:50 PM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/30/signature-stats-first-downs-allowed-safeties/

As you can see Moore was top ten in both categories. Adams not so much

He was also very high in tackling efficiency. IE he didn't miss many tackles.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/01/signature-stat-snapshot-tackling-efficiency-dbs/

This is the problem with PFF. They suck. They have complete amateurs doing their "analysis" and so you get shit like this. I respect their attempts, but their execution is just bad.

Also, as I posted in another thread, the reason those stats look good for Moore is because the team kept him almost exclusively in deep coverages where he was protected by our pass rush. For all your talk of Adams being better, Fox and JDR felt more confident in allowing Adams and Leonhard taking the underneath zones and man coverages on the tight ends. This, despite Moore being exponentially more talented from a physical standpoint.



I've long preferred Football Outsiders, and not because they tell a very different tale here (though that's a nice perk.) Adams is ahead of Moore in all but one statistical category, often by a large margin.

Football Outsiders is good. KC Joyner (http://www.thefootballscientist.com (http://www.thefootballscientist.com/)) is even better.

Jsteve01
09-04-2013, 08:52 PM
This is the problem with PFF. They suck. They have complete amateurs doing their "analysis" and so you get shit like this. I respect their attempts, but their execution is just bad.

Also, as I posted in another thread, the reason those stats look good for Moore is because the team kept him almost exclusively in deep coverages where he was protected by our pass rush. For all your talk of Adams being better, Fox and JDR felt more confident in allowing Adams and Leonhard taking the underneath zones and man coverages on the tight ends. This, despite Moore being exponentially more talented from a physical standpoint.




Football Outsiders is good. KC Joyner (http://www.thefootballscientist.com (http://www.thefootballscientist.com/)) is even better.

you don't like the source. Fine, I felt Moore was better than Adams last year. I also think the coaches agree as Moore and Ihenacho will both be playing ahead of him.

Dzone
09-04-2013, 09:14 PM
The DBs seem to be a strength on this team. We shall see.

Hillman is starting? Ok. If we get in a 3rd and long and they run him into the line for no gain it will be deja vu

Bosco
09-04-2013, 10:01 PM
you don't like the source. Fine, I felt Moore was better than Adams last year. I also think the coaches agree as Moore and Ihenacho will both be playing ahead of him.

You're right, I don't like the source. Never have. Now, thanks to Joel and I, you have two better sources you can go to. You feel Moore played better than Adams, but what do you base this on other than a very poor website that has basically no one with high level playing experience on staff? In fact, don't they basically let just about anyone volunteer to write for them? Have you done your own analysis of their play, especially using the coaches film that is now publicly available?

Better yet, simple question. If the coaches felt Moore was the better player, why wasn't he drawing the intermediate zones and against tight ends on a consistent basis? Why did Fox and JDR...a couple of guys who know a thing or two about defense...trust Adams and Leonhard with that role even though neither of those two were better than average at best? That was arguably the biggest weakness of our defense last year and they didn't trust Moore enough to even really experiment with him there.

SR
09-05-2013, 06:20 AM
you don't like the source. Fine, I felt Moore was better than Adams last year. I also think the coaches agree as Moore and Ihenacho will both be playing ahead of him.

Moore was better than Adams last year, hands down.

Jsteve01
09-05-2013, 07:45 AM
You're right, I don't like the source. Never have. Now, thanks to Joel and I, you have two better sources you can go to. You feel Moore played better than Adams, but what do you base this on other than a very poor website that has basically no one with high level playing experience on staff? In fact, don't they basically let just about anyone volunteer to write for them? Have you done your own analysis of their play, especially using the coaches film that is now publicly available?

Better yet, simple question. If the coaches felt Moore was the better player, why wasn't he drawing the intermediate zones and against tight ends on a consistent basis? Why did Fox and JDR...a couple of guys who know a thing or two about defense...trust Adams and Leonhard with that role even though neither of those two were better than average at best? That was arguably the biggest weakness of our defense last year and they didn't trust Moore enough to even really experiment with him there.

lol because as we all saw when Moore blew it the back end, the last line of defense is huge for any defense. I did watch both of them play and no, i've not broken it down. Again if your premise holds true then why are Duke and Rahim starting? Commitment to our own picks? well Adams was and is getting a significant amount of coin to be a backup and he was an Elway signing. I always pay attention to pff, chff, and outsiders. You don't like pff which is fine. I find some of their stats to be trash and some to be quite good. Regardless as always Bosco you come off as a real likeable guy when debating.

Joel
09-05-2013, 04:04 PM
Better yet, simple question. If the coaches felt Moore was the better player, why wasn't he drawing the intermediate zones and against tight ends on a consistent basis? Why did Fox and JDR...a couple of guys who know a thing or two about defense...trust Adams and Leonhard with that role even though neither of those two were better than average at best? That was arguably the biggest weakness of our defense last year and they didn't trust Moore enough to even really experiment with him there.
That's how it looked to me, too. The only place PFF and FOs stats agreed was that Moore is a statistically better tackler, and that could have much to do with why he's still starting and Adams isn't. Adams is also a year older, which could be another factor, but the fact is Moore didn't take Adams' job, Ihenacho did. I think most people would agree that makes our secondary more physical, which is increasingly what people want from safeties; whether it also makes them weaker in coverage, and, if so, whether the trade is worth it, remains to be seen.

It's not as simple as "Moore>Adams because he still has his starting job." The coaches expect and desire different things from each of them, and their stats indicate different strengths. No matter how good Adams is at what the coaches want from their SS it doesn't matter if Moore's better at what they want from their FS. Either one could still be the better OVERALL safety without getting the starting FS job if the other is better at the PARTICULAR things our coaches place a premium on for FS, just like being a better overall receiver doesn't help Decker beat Holliday for the returner job.

I like Adams better than Moore in coverage, think their stats/game tape support that view, and prioritize coverage over tackling at free AND strong safety. But I'm not a Broncos coach. If we want an enforcer like Atwater or Lynch, or simply don't want todays big powerful receivers running over our safeties en route to the end zone, Moore's better. Adams is better in coverage. Jammer's probably out in the cold either way.

Jsteve01
09-05-2013, 05:29 PM
Safety positions in the league are pretty much interchangeable so if you're going to put two guys out there they'll be the best all around players.

Bosco
09-05-2013, 05:59 PM
Safety positions in the league are pretty much interchangeable so if you're going to put two guys out there they'll be the best all around players.

That depends on the scheme. In Denver's scheme, it's not the case.

Joel
09-05-2013, 06:46 PM
Safety positions in the league are pretty much interchangeable so if you're going to put two guys out there they'll be the best all around players.
Even granting that for the sake of argument, who's better "overall" depends on what's prioritized, whether for FS or SS alone, or just "safeties" in general. Statistically (i.e. looking at how often thrown at, not just how often somewhere on the field,) Adams covers better. Moore's a statistically better tackler. When one safety tackles better but covers worse than another coaches who prioritize tackling will deem him "better overall," and coaches who prioritize coverage will deem him "worse overall" unless the difference is extreme in one area and slight in another.

Personally, I think it is less that safeties themselves are interchangeable than that teams frequently have their "strong" safety play free, and vice versa. Again, we did it constantly when Lynch and Dawkins were our "free" safeties, because both played like hard-hitting, run-stuffing, blitzing strong safeties, leaving guys like Ferguson and Brandon shagging flies at "strong" safety. Last year we similarly dropped Adams in coverage a lot more and sent Moore on a lot more quarterback and run blitzes. That plays to their respective strengths, and if opponents are foolish enough to take their designated positions at face value, so much the better.