CJ carted off the field

[Spiritguy]

Josina Anderson ‏@JosinaAnderson 31s

--->RT @Rod9sports: Another Bronco down. CJ Anderson carted off field.

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 2m
It's a right leg for CJ Anderson. No weight on it at all as carried into locker room after being driven to the door.

[BroncoWave]

Based on this tweet from CJ, doesn't sound good...

"I'm sorry I'm so sorry gotta stay positive and come back strong"

Sucks for him as he was showing some promise, but from the Broncos perspective at least it wasn't a big contributor.

[TXBRONC]

Aren't you just a ray of sunshine? :tsk:

Thanks for the update Spirit.

[Magnificent Seven]

Aw! Man! Get well soon, CJ!

[G_Money]

ACK! Well, I guess we can IR him and keep him around for the year. Anybody see if Lance Ball had some people Nancy Kerrigan him? "WHYYYYY.... Whhhyyyyyy...?"

[BroncoJoe]

ack! Well, i guess we can ir him and keep him around for the year. anybody see if lance ball had some people nancy kerrigan him? "whyyyyy.... Whhhyyyyyy...?"

lol.

[G_Money]

Seriously, I was really looking forward to seeing him run with the 2s this week, so I hope he DOES come back strong and it's not something incredibly serious/career-threatening. Though as a 4th-5th RB, any injury that keeps you out the rest of the preseason is by definition career-threatening. Don't get a lot of chances to make a squad in the Not For Long. Best of luck, CJ.

[SR]

Sucks.

BUT, at this point I think it's more important for us to groom Montee Ball and get him ready because he's gonna be the starter soon.

[Broncolingus]

Seriously, I was really looking forward to seeing him run with the 2s this week,

Me too...

[BroncoWave]

Sucks.

BUT, at this point I think it's more important for us to groom Montee Ball and get him ready because he's gonna be the starter soon.

Agreed. Feel bad for him because he was showing some promise, but if a RB had to get hurt I'm glad it wasn't Ball or Hillman. Anderson probably would have only played special teams had he made the roster at all.

[slim]

Bummer.

[jhildebrand]

Where is Xavier Omon? I liked that kid last year and thought he deserved a bigger looksee. If CJ goes to IR he would be worth bringing in if available.

[SR]

Where is Xavier Omon? I liked that kid last year and thought he deserved a bigger looksee. If CJ goes to IR he would be worth bringing in if available.

He got hurt last year and ran out of practice squad elgibility so the team released him. We're just fine with the backs we still have and there's zero reason to bring in another back.

[jhildebrand]

We're just fine with the backs we still have and there's zero reason to bring in another back.

We are? :confused: I disagree completely. We have Knowshon, a known injury prone RB whose production doesn't match his draft position. We have Ronnie Hillman who struggled mightily in different areas last year especially protection. We have Montee Ball who is unknown at this point. Finally we have Lance Ball who , IMHO, isn't worthy of the roster spot he has been taking up the last few years. We have a team who had a problem running the ball to close out games last year (see the Baltimore PO game). I think that is why we have a thread regarding the injury to CJ Anderson and what a bummer it is-because he showed the potential to provide something this team hasn't had the past couple of years.

The reason I would look to Omon is he was in camp last year with Manning and has some familiarity with this team where as any other FA RB wouldn't.

[SR]

We are? :confused: I disagree completely. We have Knowshon, a known injury prone RB whose production doesn't match his draft position. We have Ronnie Hillman who struggled mightily in different areas last year especially protection. We have Montee Ball who is unknown at this point. Finally we have Lance Ball who , IMHO, isn't worthy of the roster spot he has been taking up the last few years. We have a team who had a problem running the ball to close out games last year (see the Baltimore PO game). I think that is why we have a thread regarding the injury to CJ Anderson and what a bummer it is-because he showed the potential to provide something this team hasn't had the past couple of years.

The reason I would look to Omon is he was in camp last year with Manning and has some familiarity with this team where as any other FA RB wouldn't.

Denver's lack of a solid running game last year mattered in one game, not multiple gameS. CJ getting hurt has zero impact on this team. Why? Because he's a complete unknown who no one knew shit about until he had a great quarter against a third string defense.

[Dapper Dan]

There goes the Super Bowl.

[BroncoJoe]

Denver's lack of a solid running game last year mattered in one game, not multiple gameS. CJ getting hurt has zero impact on this team. Why? Because he's a complete unknown who no one knew shit about until he had a great quarter against a third string defense.

Well, to be fair we were 9th in attempts and 16th in yards. That kind of disparity isn't a good thing. It's certainly not terrible, but can definitely be improved.

Was CJ the answer? Who knows. What I do know is I wanted to see more of him.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Well it looks like we will not have a surprise RB this year. Look like Noshow and Lance Ball are battling out for the 4th spot (being that Hester will be the HB/FB utility guy at #3). Harf.

[Ziggy]

That's too bad. I enjoyed the kid who ran hungrier than any other back on this team. I hope he can come back to 100% when it's all said and done.

[BroncoWave]

Let's try to remember that CJ had one good game against people who will be selling insurance in a few weeks. None of us have any idea if he actually would have been any sort of meaningful contributor. A week ago most us us were fine with going into the season with Ball/Hillman/Moreno. Let's not forget that.

[Dapper Dan]

I don't think it really matters who is number 1, 2, etc. We will use each back in different situations. We will keep a fresh back in at all times. I don't see any of these guys getting 25-30 carries.

[BroncoJoe]

Let's try to remember that CJ had one good game against people who will be selling insurance in a few weeks. None of us have any idea if he actually would have been any sort of meaningful contributor. A week ago most us us were fine with going into the season with Ball/Hillman/Moreno. Let's not forget that.

Yes, although TD was just another guy until a preseason game.

Not saying he's TD - as said above all I know is I wanted to see more.

[Spiritguy]

Ouch! Lindsay Jones‏@bylindsayhjones5m
Peyton Manning said CJ Anderson's injury sounded horrible. Could hear the rookie RB screaming in pain before he was carted off.

[Dapper Dan]

I think the real question is... Should we stop practicing?

[Dapper Dan]

Ouch! Lindsay Jones‏@bylindsayhjones5m
Peyton Manning said CJ Anderson's injury sounded horrible. Could hear the rookie RB screaming in pain before he was carted off.

:tsk: Poor kid.

[BroncoWave]

Yes, although TD was just another guy until a preseason game.

Not saying he's TD - as said in another thread all I know is I wanted to see more.

True, but for every TD you have a ton of guys who look good in second halves of preseason games who you never hear from again. This probably sounds crass, but if a RB had to get hurt; better CJ than Ball or Hillman.

I get that he showed some promise, but chances are he probably wouldn't have played much at all even if he had made the roster.

[Canmore]

I don't think it really matters who is number 1, 2, etc. We will use each back in different situations. We will keep a fresh back in at all times. I don't see any of these guys getting 25-30 carries.

Yes it looks like running-back by committee. Still, I think there is hope that M Ball was going to handle twenty or so carries a game.

[Ziggy]

Let's try to remember that CJ had one good game against people who will be selling insurance in a few weeks. None of us have any idea if he actually would have been any sort of meaningful contributor. A week ago most us us were fine with going into the season with Ball/Hillman/Moreno. Let's not forget that.

He caught my eye the first camp practice that I went to, even though I had never heard of him. It was in my training camp report. The kid has talent, and had real shot to stick on this team and possibly contribute this season. He did what he was supposed to do against scrub defenders. I was looking forward to seeing him run with the 2nd team in this next game.

[Dapper Dan]

Yes it looks like running-back by committee. Still, I think there is hope that M Ball was going to handle twenty or so carries a game.

Yeah. I think the plan is for Ball/Hillman to be Stewart/Foster or something like that.

[BroncoWave]

He caught my eye the first camp practice that I went to, even though I had never heard of him. It was in my training camp report. The kid has talent, and had real shot to stick on this team and possibly contribute this season. He did what he was supposed to do against scrub defenders. I was looking forward to seeing him run with the 2nd team in this next game.

Oh I agree that he looked promising, I just can't say it was a huge loss for the team since none of us know for sure how good he would have been.

[Dapper Dan]

Oh I agree that he looked promising, I just can't say it was a huge loss for the team since none of us know for sure how good he would have been.

It's not a "huge" loss. It just sucks because everyone was excited to see if he could play against tougher competition. Now we won't.

[BroncoWave]

It's not a "huge" loss. It just sucks because everyone was excited to see if he could play against tougher competition. Now we won't.

Agreed, but in the big picture we still did pretty well with injuries this camp compared to a lot of other contenders. The only position we really took a hit at was center. It does suck that CJ got hurt on the last day of camp though. Almost made it.

[Spiritguy]

Still need more info. Don't know what the injury is yet:

Tom Nalen‏@TomNalen4m
cj anderson out for 6 weeks, per jeff legwold. not sure what the broncos will do with him. pup and then practice squad?

[dogfish]

man, this wave guy sure reminds me a lot of that BTB chump. . .


fingers crossed for CJ. . .

[Magnificent Seven]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi

Only six weeks for CJ Anderson a minor miracle considering how bad it looked.

[SR]

WTF was the injury??

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article:


Anderson suffered an medial collateral ligament (MCL) sprain, the team said, not an anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) tear. He is expected to miss 2-4 weeks.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23868492/broncos-without-von-miller-final-day-training-camp

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi

Only six weeks for CJ Anderson a minor miracle considering how bad it looked.

In only six weeks the final roster will already be decided. Unfortunately, it still might cost him a roster spot.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi

Only six weeks for CJ Anderson a minor miracle considering how bad it looked.

Besides the article I posted a few minutes ago, 104.3 the fan just stated that the injury is now being reported as an MCL sprain - out 2-4 weeks

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Besides the article I posted a few minutes ago, 104.3 the fan just stated that the injury is now being reported as an MCL sprain - out 2-4 weeks

It will be interesting to see how the coaching staff views him because that essentially eliminates him from participating in the preseason any further.

[tomjonesrocks]

Sounds like he's a practice squad candidate now.

I think the league is too deep at RB that some team will race to snatch him up after this if he is on the PS based on one solid outing in one preseason game against 4th stringers.

[dogfish]

screw it-- i've already seen enough to keep him over lance ball. . .

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 14m

Two options for CJ Anderson at this point: 1) He makes the final 53 or 2) He goes on IR. He cannot be placed on PUP.

[dogfish]

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 14m

Two options for CJ Anderson at this point: 1) He makes the final 53 or 2) He goes on IR. He cannot be placed on PUP.

or 3) he gets our short-term IR designation. . . try to keep up, vic. . .


NOT that i think we'd actually use it on a 4th-string back, but it is a possibility. . .

[Denver Native (Carol)]

or 3) he gets our short-term IR designation. . . try to keep up, vic. . .


NOT that i think we'd actually use it on a 4th-string back, but it is a possibility. . .

With Vic saying or he goes on IR - would that not cover all categories of IR?

[dogfish]

With Vic saying or he goes on IR - would that not cover all categories of IR?

i suppose so, but he should have mentioned it for clarity's sake, IMO. . .

this is the problem with using tweeter as a "news source". . .

[G_Money]

Glad to hear it's not the ACL!

Yeah, I can't see him making the short-term IR designation, but we might very well agree with him to put him on IR for the year. We've done it with guys before, where they then get a full year's contract so it's good for them, and a year to learn the offense and pass protections. Problem is, I believe we'd have to have his permission because his injury is now considered minor, so if a doctor says he's healthy we have to grant him his release.

Since he's an undrafted rook, I'm guessing he'd be okay sticking with the team for a year on IR even though he couldn't practice, but we might try to slide him onto the practice squad now. He won't get any more chances to impress people before the regular season starts, so that works in our favor.

That way once Moreno strains his flabulous muscle from excess pulchritudinous appeal, we'll have a back laying around who can help us.

~G

[BroncoWave]

Good to hear it's minor. Will be very interesting to see what they do with him. Personally, I find it doubtful he makes the 53 this year. While he looked good for his short time in camp, I would think the coaches might want to see him against better players first. I would think IR would be the Broncos first choice, but they could PS him too.

[Bosco]

Not worried about it. Running backs are a dime a dozen. We'll be fine with Moreno and whatever Ball and Hillman give us.

[Spiritguy]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1m
Make that 4-6 week recovery on CJ Anderson's MCL sprain, not 2-4 weeks. So it's bad. Still not as bad as feared.

[TXBRONC]

We are? :confused: I disagree completely. We have Knowshon, a known injury prone RB whose production doesn't match his draft position. We have Ronnie Hillman who struggled mightily in different areas last year especially protection. We have Montee Ball who is unknown at this point. Finally we have Lance Ball who , IMHO, isn't worthy of the roster spot he has been taking up the last few years. We have a team who had a problem running the ball to close out games last year (see the Baltimore PO game). I think that is why we have a thread regarding the injury to CJ Anderson and what a bummer it is-because he showed the potential to provide something this team hasn't had the past couple of years.

The reason I would look to Omon is he was in camp last year with Manning and has some familiarity with this team where as any other FA RB wouldn't.

Two years ago we lead the League in rushing with McGahee rushing 1,100 yards. Last year McGahee was on pace for another 1,100 yards rushing. While our rushing was ranked lower last year than the year before the difference was the change at quarterback. I think that's the biggest reason for the fall in production in the running game.

Lance is worthy of roster spot because he can play special teams and he 's descent pass receiver out of the backfield. He's definitely not someone build your running game around but he's ok in spot duty.

[TXBRONC]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1m
Make that 4-6 week recovery on CJ Anderson's MCL sprain, not 2-4 weeks. So it's bad. Still not as bad as feared.

Like Klis said it could have been worse. Also our top two running backs are still healthy and hopefully Monreo will stay healthy enough to remain our third down back for this year.

[Jsteve01]

Not worried about it. Running backs are a dime a dozen. We'll be fine with Moreno and whatever Ball and Hillman give us. Hard nosed backs who gain the tough yards are hard to come by. I think we learned that last year in the loss to Baltimore.

[TXBRONC]

Hard nosed backs who gain the tough yards are hard to come by. I think we learned that last year in the loss to Baltimore.

That's exactly why they drafted M. Ball.

[dogfish]

Hard nosed backs who gain the tough yards are hard to come by. I think we learned that last year in the loss to Baltimore.

peyton already knew about it from the years he spent in indy after edge left. . .

[jhildebrand]

Two years ago we lead the League in rushing with McGahee rushing 1,100 yards. Last year McGahee was on pace for another 1,100 yards rushing. While our rushing was ranked lower last year than the year before the difference was the change at quarterback. I think that's the biggest reason for the fall in production in the running game.

Lance is worthy of roster spot because he can play special teams and he 's descent pass receiver out of the backfield. He's definitely not someone build your running game around but he's ok in spot duty.

Fair enough. But the fact remains this team cannot run the ball when it has to. It couldn't any point last year and especially in the Baltimore game. Another complaint myself and others had about our backs last year is they were all essentially the same guy from a RB type standpoint. Alfred Williams may be a lot of things but even he gets it when it comes to this team and running the ball. They don't have the attitude, maybe personnel, and certainly the desire. CJ seemed showed that the 1st defender wouldn't take him down. That isn't something we have seen from a denver back in a while probably Mike Anderson.

[jhildebrand]

That's exactly why they drafted M. Ball.

Who in very limited action against the 49ers seemed to be running very upright and not low. He does that much more in these preseason games and he is gonna get his clock cleaned.

[jhildebrand]

Denver's lack of a solid running game last year mattered in one game, not multiple gameS. CJ getting hurt has zero impact on this team. Why? Because he's a complete unknown who no one knew shit about until he had a great quarter against a third string defense.

Depends on how you view and defined mattered. There were several drives and possessions killed because our backs couldn't pick up 3rd and manageable throughout the entire season. Some of those games the team still won. Some they didn't. In the end, you know who saw it and understood it? The RAVENS. But hey, it doesn't matter. Let's just count on Lance Ball at crunch time to run right, left, than middle on 3rd and 7 trying to close out a game. Great idea. :yay:

Glad you have such a keen eye for NFL talent and can unequivocally state this has zero impact on this team. Surely I will see you walking the sidelines on tv during the season. Because nobody knew who CJ was AND undrafteds never do anything in the NFL. Must be because he played for a tiny school at Cal in a tiny conference.

I guess TD was an apparition, Rod Smith was a first rounder, Tyrone Braxton was a high draft pick, Karl Mecklenburg, and plenty of other Broncos were only successful because they were high draft picks...oh wait.

I mean the league could never find an Arian Foster as an undrafted FA RB and actually have them make a significant impact. :lol: Kubes just threw him in week 1 of his rookie season on a whim :rolleyes: ORRRRRRRR he showed something in the preseason and EARNED a job despite other guys being there and having been there! The point being is the league is littered with examples of undrafted gems who become huge for their team. CJ looked, albeit and admittedly in my last post, like in ONE preseason game he might give Broncos fans some hope for something different!

[dogfish]

Fair enough. But the fact remains this team cannot run the ball when it has to. It couldn't any point last year and especially in the Baltimore game. Another complaint myself and others had about our backs last year is they were all essentially the same guy from a RB type standpoint. Alfred Williams may be a lot of things but even he gets it when it comes to this team and running the ball. They don't have the attitude, maybe personnel, and certainly the desire. CJ seemed showed that the 1st defender wouldn't take him down. That isn't something we have seen from a denver back in a while probably Mike Anderson.

i completely agree in regards to the baltimore game, but i think you're making a mistake judging this year based just on last year-- granted, i also understand that we don't have any other evidence to go on right now, but give things a chance to play out before getting too bent out of shape about it. . . we have new parts, we need a chance to get them integrated before saying things like "we don't have the personnel". . .

exhibit A; alex mother effin' gibbs is back in town, and if you think that guy can't instill some attitude, then i don't know what to tell ya. . .

exhibit B; luis vasquez is widely regarded as a road grader. . .

exhibit C; we may get chris kuper at center at some point, and he's a huge upgrade to ramirez if he's healthy. . .

exhibit D; montee ball was a short yardage animal in college-- let the kid get his feet under him with a game or two before saying he can't do it. . .


john elway is a hell of a lot smarter than alfred williams, and we did take steps this off-season to improve that obvious weakness. . . barring major injury problems, i'll be surprised if we aren't better by mid-season than we were last year. . .

[NightTerror218]

I think he will go on IR to save a roster spot if serious. Save a spot for someone else. So next year replace moreno.

[TXBRONC]

Fair enough. But the fact remains this team cannot run the ball when it has to. It couldn't any point last year and especially in the Baltimore game. Another complaint myself and others had about our backs last year is they were all essentially the same guy from a RB type standpoint. Alfred Williams may be a lot of things but even he gets it when it comes to this team and running the ball. They don't have the attitude, maybe personnel, and certainly the desire. CJ seemed showed that the 1st defender wouldn't take him down. That isn't something we have seen from a denver back in a while probably Mike Anderson.

I'm not real concerned about our runningbacks just yet because I think the offensive line which has it's own issue is also tied to the struggles of the runningbacks.

[TXBRONC]

I think he will go on IR to save a roster spot if serious. Save a spot for someone else. So next year replace moreno.

Right now it looks like he could be back in four to six weeks.

[BroncoWave]

Depends on how you view and defined mattered. There were several drives and possessions killed because our backs couldn't pick up 3rd and manageable throughout the entire season. Some of those games the team still won. Some they didn't. In the end, you know who saw it and understood it? The RAVENS. But hey, it doesn't matter. Let's just count on Lance Ball at crunch time to run right, left, than middle on 3rd and 7 trying to close out a game. Great idea. :yay:

Glad you have such a keen eye for NFL talent and can unequivocally state this has zero impact on this team. Surely I will see you walking the sidelines on tv during the season. Because nobody knew who CJ was AND undrafteds never do anything in the NFL. Must be because he played for a tiny school at Cal in a tiny conference.

I guess TD was an apparition, Rod Smith was a first rounder, Tyrone Braxton was a high draft pick, Karl Mecklenburg, and plenty of other Broncos were only successful because they were high draft picks...oh wait.

I mean the league could never find an Arian Foster as an undrafted FA RB and actually have them make a significant impact. :lol: Kubes just threw him in week 1 of his rookie season on a whim :rolleyes: ORRRRRRRR he showed something in the preseason and EARNED a job despite other guys being there and having been there! The point being is the league is littered with examples of undrafted gems who become huge for their team. CJ looked, albeit and admittedly in my last post, like in ONE preseason game he might give Broncos fans some hope for something different!

For every Arian Foster and TD, there are a hundred backs that come through as UDFAs and never play a single snap. I hate it when people act like this is the norm. Yes there is a CHANCE that CJ could be the next one of those guys, but the odds are very much stacked against that. He had ONE nice game against players who will be selling insurance in a couple of weeks.

Chances are, the people who say this injury has no impact on us are more accurate than one who says CJ will be the next TD or Foster. That's not to say CJ can't be that, but the odds are overwhelmingly against it.

[MOtorboat]

A lot of time and energy here on a fourth or fifth string running back...

I'm more worried about Montee Ball.

[Dapper Dan]

A lot of time and energy here on a fourth or fifth string running back...

I'm more worried about Montee Ball.

I don't get how people can be so worried after a preseason game against maybe the best team in the NFL. This is our first game in about 7 months.

[TXBRONC]

I don't get how people can be so worried after a preseason game against maybe the best team in the NFL. This is our first game in about 7 months.

It's important to try to keep things in perspective. There is chance that some people will be upset after tomorrow's game because Denver is going up against another very defense.

[Dapper Dan]

It's important to try to keep things in perspective. There is chance that some people will be upset after tomorrow's game because Denver is going up against another very defense.

It's a good thing we are playing these types of teams in the preseason. The W/L really don't matter as much. When that's the case, it's good to go against tough teams. It will make our team better. It would be pointless to go out and play a team like Jacksonville in the preseason and roll all over them.

[TXBRONC]

It's a good thing we are playing these types of teams in the preseason. The W/L really don't matter as much. When that's the case, it's good to go against tough teams. It will make our team better. It would be pointless to go out and play a team like Jacksonville in the preseason and roll all over them.

Preseason is for working out the kinks and finding out what you do and what you don't do well.

[Dapper Dan]

Preseason is for working out the kinks and finding out what you do and what you don't do well.

Right. Which is why you want to see mistakes right now. So you can fix them. If we played perfect, we would probably be screwed in the regular season.

I'd also like to add that for rookies, this is their first time on the big stage in the NFL. I'm sure there are tons of nerves as well as a millions things going through their minds.

[TXBRONC]

Right. Which is why you want to see mistakes right now. So you can fix them. If we played perfect, we would probably be screwed in the regular season.

I'd also like to add that for rookies, this is their first time on the big stage in the NFL. I'm sure there are tons of nerves as well as a millions things going through their minds.

There will be things this team won't be good and the best teams in the League either find a way get better or way to compensate for their shortcomings.

[MOtorboat]

I don't get how people can be so worried after a preseason game against maybe the best team in the NFL. This is our first game in about 7 months.

Injuries and level of play on the offensive line is a legitimate concern, IMO. I think there's reason to be concerned with running back, but the answer isn't an undrafted free agent, it's which of Moreno, Ball or Hillman can step up.

[jhildebrand]

i completely agree in regards to the baltimore game, but i think you're making a mistake judging this year based just on last year-- granted, i also understand that we don't have any other evidence to go on right now, but give things a chance to play out before getting too bent out of shape about it. . . we have new parts, we need a chance to get them integrated before saying things like "we don't have the personnel". . .

Agreed. My original post was clear that the 'potential' seen in CJ was made acknowledging it was just 1 game and a PS one at that.



exhibit A; alex mother effin' gibbs is back in town, and if you think that guy can't instill some attitude, then i don't know what to tell ya. . .
God I hope so. If Gibbs can't get this going then we have some issues. The only counter I have to some of this is that Gibbs and the zone isn't as effective as it was in the Shanahan days because the league has had time to catch up with it defensively.



exhibit B; luis vasquez is widely regarded as a road grader. . .

I didnt pay much attention to Vasquez in any of the SD games I saw last season. That said, plenty labeled Orlando as a road grader too. His addition to the right side of the line was supposed to make running that was a lot better. I am not sure that came to fruition.



exhibit C; we may get chris kuper at center at some point, and he's a huge upgrade to ramirez if he's healthy. . .
Anybody other than Ramirez on the line is better.



exhibit D; montee ball was a short yardage animal in college-- let the kid get his feet under him with a game or two before saying he can't do it. . .
I am not saying he cannot do it. The only thing I have seen from him in his couple of preseason plays was he seemed to run upright. But I know it is going to take a bit. I just hope he pays off and more than Moreno ever has and than what Hillman showed last year.



john elway is a hell of a lot smarter than alfred williams, and we did take steps this off-season to improve that obvious weakness. . . barring major injury problems, i'll be surprised if we aren't better by mid-season than we were last year. . .

Agreed. Although Alfred Williams was touting Von Miller long before anybody else was.

[jhildebrand]

it's which of Moreno, Ball or Hillman can step up.

At what point do we not accept and acknowledge Moreno is what he has shown to this point and not expect more? I guess for me, I think RB's have the easiest transition to the NFL from college. They either show something their rookie season that gives you reason to expect more or they don't. Portis comes to mind. Again, for me, I am past expecting more from Moreno. Hillman didn't show much in his rookie season either but he was also a lot more limited and with good reason.

I wouldn't be surprised if by season's end, Hillman and Ball (or visa versa) are a major one two punch.

[SR]

Depends on how you view and defined mattered. There were several drives and possessions killed because our backs couldn't pick up 3rd and manageable throughout the entire season. Some of those games the team still won. Some they didn't. In the end, you know who saw it and understood it? The RAVENS. But hey, it doesn't matter. Let's just count on Lance Ball at crunch time to run right, left, than middle on 3rd and 7 trying to close out a game. Great idea. :yay:

Glad you have such a keen eye for NFL talent and can unequivocally state this has zero impact on this team. Surely I will see you walking the sidelines on tv during the season. Because nobody knew who CJ was AND undrafteds never do anything in the NFL. Must be because he played for a tiny school at Cal in a tiny conference.

I guess TD was an apparition, Rod Smith was a first rounder, Tyrone Braxton was a high draft pick, Karl Mecklenburg, and plenty of other Broncos were only successful because they were high draft picks...oh wait.

I mean the league could never find an Arian Foster as an undrafted FA RB and actually have them make a significant impact. :lol: Kubes just threw him in week 1 of his rookie season on a whim :rolleyes: ORRRRRRRR he showed something in the preseason and EARNED a job despite other guys being there and having been there! The point being is the league is littered with examples of undrafted gems who become huge for their team. CJ looked, albeit and admittedly in my last post, like in ONE preseason game he might give Broncos fans some hope for something different!

How many of those drives and shit you're talking about really mattered in the regular season though? The team won 11 games in a row...

All the other guys you mention are BY FAR the exception and NOT the rule. But hey, go ahead and keep on since apparently you're the expert and I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground...

[BroncoWave]

How many of those drives and shit you're talking about really mattered in the regular season though? The team won 11 games in a row...

All the other guys you mention are BY FAR the exception and NOT the rule. But hey, go ahead and keep on since apparently you're the expert and I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground...

It's funny how every time we try to say to wait a bit before proclaiming a UDFA a stud, someone always responds with "but TD and Rod Smith and Arian Foster!", as if we don't know who those people are.

[BroncoJoe]

Extreme viewpoints in any direction are foolish.

[dogfish]

Extreme viewpoints in any direction are foolish.

thanks, yoda. . . :wave:

[BroncoWave]

thanks, yoda. . . :wave:

Yoda would have said "Foolish, extreme viewpoints in any direction are."

[SR]

It's funny how every time we try to say to wait a bit before proclaiming a UDFA a stud, someone always responds with "but TD and Rod Smith and Arian Foster!", as if we don't know who those people are.

I guess we should, from this point on, start proclaiming any UDFA or really deep on the depth chart guy who has a good quarter against other UDFAs or career backups as the next best player in history at their position...

[Dapper Dan]

Injuries and level of play on the offensive line is a legitimate concern, IMO. I think there's reason to be concerned with running back, but the answer isn't an undrafted free agent, it's which of Moreno, Ball or Hillman can step up.

With the staff and players that we have, I can't help but be optimistic that someone will fill in any hole that's there and play well. If we had anyone like Derek Dooley, I'd be more worried.

[powderaddict]

I strongly believe the running game is still very important in the NFL. But I also believe that the Oline is more important to a consistent running game than the backs are.

Not to say the RB is irrelevant, or unimportant. They are, especially in this offense as pass protectors, and catching passes out of the backfield. But watching RB after RB excel in Denver for years changed my opinion on the running game. Great blocking with average RB = effective running game. Great RB with crappy blocking = meh running game. Good blocking + good RB = superior threat in the running game.

[G_Money]

Being undrafted is not a measure of worth. The reason people keep bringing up Smith and TD and Foster and a million other undrafteds, is because they have as good a chance of being quality performers as 3rd round picks do. The league is built on the backs of 6th, 7th, and UDFA adds. Just because 32 teams are stupid and don't draft Woodyard or Harris doesn't mean he can't be a quality starter and team leader.

If instead of undrafted you just focused on the competition level (the second part of the argument) it'd probably work better. Lots of decent players look great against 4th stringers but can't do jack against first stringers. That's why I wanted to see CJ against the 2s this week: If his vision, angles, explosiveness and strength looked that good against borderline starters then he'd have some bragging rights and a good shot to make the team.

The thing undrafteds don't get that first round, sketchy picks do is time. Time to get their feet under them and learn, or to make mistakes and lack impact yet still get on the field. Because there's an investment there. Jarvis Moss got several years in this league because somebody was dumb and made him a first round pick. A UDFA lineman who plays like that gets cut in his first camp and stocks shelves the rest of that fall.

Defensive linemen can take 3 years to get up to speed. A UDFA lineman might not get that long, but a 1st round pick will. Running backs will never get that long - there are just too many of em available, and you turn em like a meat grinder. So CJ isn't likely to get several years on a practice squad to learn how to be a nominal contributor. You've got to show flashes early, learn fast, and hook on with the roster STAT. Hope he can still do that, for his sake.

And if he turns out to have top skills, then good for him and I hope he's still with us. I wouldn't down a Ryan Grant or Willie Parker type contributor, no way. No way to tell if he's that after one game against scrubs, but I would have taken a few more games against better competition. So would the Broncos; they weren't running him out there with the 2s on offense, and planned to in tomorrow's game on a lark.

They wanted to see if it was real too.

~G

[Bosco]

Hard nosed backs who gain the tough yards are hard to come by. I think we learned that last year in the loss to Baltimore.

Actually, they're not. We had two of them last year, and unfortunately it just happened that both of them were injured for the one game we really needed them. It sucks, but sometimes that shit happens. Either way, there is no shortage of power backs out there.


A lot of time and energy here on a fourth or fifth string running back...

I'm more worried about Montee Ball.

He didn't look very impressive at all, but then again I'm not worried either because a healthy Moreno is exactly the kind of back we need for this offense.

[Bosco]

Being undrafted is not a measure of worth. The reason people keep bringing up Smith and TD and Foster and a million other undrafteds, is because they have as good a chance of being quality performers as 3rd round picks do. The league is built on the backs of 6th, 7th, and UDFA adds. Just because 32 teams are stupid and don't draft Woodyard or Harris doesn't mean he can't be a quality starter and team leader.

If instead of undrafted you just focused on the competition level (the second part of the argument) it'd probably work better. Lots of decent players look great against 4th stringers but can't do jack against first stringers. That's why I wanted to see CJ against the 2s this week: If his vision, angles, explosiveness and strength looked that good against borderline starters then he'd have some bragging rights and a good shot to make the team.

The thing undrafteds don't get that first round, sketchy picks do is time. Time to get their feet under them and learn, or to make mistakes and lack impact yet still get on the field. Because there's an investment there. Jarvis Moss got several years in this league because somebody was dumb and made him a first round pick. A UDFA lineman who plays like that gets cut in his first camp and stocks shelves the rest of that fall.

Defensive linemen can take 3 years to get up to speed. A UDFA lineman might not get that long, but a 1st round pick will. Running backs will never get that long - there are just too many of em available, and you turn em like a meat grinder. So CJ isn't likely to get several years on a practice squad to learn how to be a nominal contributor. You've got to show flashes early, learn fast, and hook on with the roster STAT. Hope he can still do that, for his sake.

And if he turns out to have top skills, then good for him and I hope he's still with us. I wouldn't down a Ryan Grant or Willie Parker type contributor, no way. No way to tell if he's that after one game against scrubs, but I would have taken a few more games against better competition. So would the Broncos; they weren't running him out there with the 2s on offense, and planned to in tomorrow's game on a lark.

They wanted to see if it was real too.

~G

Overall this is a great, great post. However, I just want to take quick issue with this point.


is because they (undrafted players) have as good a chance of being quality performers as 3rd round picks do.

I would disagree with that. Generally speaking, in the 3rd round you're still drafting guys who were elite or borderline elite players on their respective college squads, and also generally speaking tended to come from larger programs where they faced tougher competition. There are a multitude of reasons that undrafted players can slip through the cracks and become high end professional players, but to say they have the same chance is incorrect IMO, both logically and as a matter of statistical correlation.

Still, great post though.

On a side note, I see you wrote a book. It doesn't seem like my genre but I might check it out just for the sake of giving it a chance and supporting an independent writer. Congrats!

[ShaneFalco]

wow that sucks wanted to see him play more.

[G_Money]

Novel writing is interesting business. ;) Second book comes out in a couple of months (doing final passes on editing and commissioning a cover now). As Bartles & James would say, thank you for your support. :D

I'm trying to find the article that said that undrafted players who make a 53-man are about as likely to succeed (have a several year career as pros) as either 3rd or 4th rounders. Somebody did a ten year draft breakdown and compared UDFAs to the bunch, I'm not making up the stat. Like you said, in sheer numbers there are more undrafteds, but the undrafteds that earn a shot tend to be as good as middle round picks as far as finding success. So if CJ made the 53 you might as well consider him a middle-round pick as far as your expectations for him going forward.

Can't find it right now though. I hope the internet didn't lose it. *laughs* I'll look more after work.

~G

[BroncoWave]

Novel writing is interesting business. ;) Second book comes out in a couple of months (doing final passes on editing and commissioning a cover now).

I'm trying to find the article that said that undrafted players who make a 53-man are about as likely to succeed (have a several year career as pros) as either 3rd or 4th rounders. Somebody did a ten year draft breakdown and compared UDFAs to the bunch, I'm not making up the stat. Like you said, in sheer numbers there are more undrafteds, but the undrafteds that get a shot tend to be as good as middle round picks as far as finding success. So if CJ made the 53 you might as well consider him a middle-round pick as far as your expectations for him going forward.

Can't find it right now though. I hope the internet didn't lose it. *laughs* I'll look more after work.

~G

Ok, well that part changes things then, because a third/fourth rounder is WAY more likely to make the roster than a UDFA.

[Simple Jaded]

I think it's hilarious that people disregard a RB because he was an UDFA but still have hope for the 12th overall that has the skills of an UDFA.

[BroncoWave]

I think it's hilarious that people disregard a RB because he was an UDFA but still have hope for the 12th overall that has the skills of an UDFA.

No one in this thread is disregarding CJ. Pretty much everyone agrees he was showing promise and we would like to have seen more of him. All we are doing is saying to hold off on calling him the next TD or Arian Foster.

And your assessment of Moreno is pretty off as well, but that's for another thread.

[TXBRONC]

No one in this thread is disregarding CJ. Pretty much everyone agrees he was showing promise and we would like to have seen more of him. All we are doing is saying to hold off on calling him the next TD or Arian Foster.

And your assessment of Moreno is pretty off as well, but that's for another thread.

Jaded's assessment is stronging than I would put it but Moreno isn't in upper echelon of runningbacks. It would be nice if was more of a hard nose runningback.

[BroncoWave]

Jaded's assessment is stronging than I would put it but Moreno isn't in upper echelon of runningbacks. It would be nice if was more of a hard nose runningback.

Well yeah, he obviously isn't in the upper echelon, I was just disputing his claim that he plays like a UDFA. He's DEFINITELY had a better career than your typical UDFA.

[TXBRONC]

Well yeah, he obviously isn't in the upper echelon, I was just disputing his claim that he plays like a UDFA. He's DEFINITELY had a better career than your typical UDFA.

I don't think that's saying much because there a lot runningbacks who can give us that kind of production.

[Simple Jaded]

I didn't say Moreno plays like a typical UDFA, I said he has the skills of an UDFA. Slow, no burst, no vision, no power, limited elusiveness, utterly forgettable in every way. Does he play like an UDFA? Lets be honest, that's debatable.

And yes, people are disregarding Anderson, here and on sports talk radio. For the past week if someone mentions that Anderson looked far better than any other RB and it's not long before someone notes the level of competition or some other perceived slight. Someone expresses disappointment in losing Anderson and someone mentions Xavier Omon. And so on, and so on.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't think that's saying much because there a lot runningbacks who can give us that kind of production.

There are UDFA's who can give you that kind of production.

[MOtorboat]

There are UDFA's who can give you that kind of production.

Name them.

[Simple Jaded]

Name them.

CJ Anderson.

[MOtorboat]

CJ Anderson.

C.J. Anderson has 3,200 yards from scrimmage and 22 touchdowns?

[Simple Jaded]

C.J. Anderson has 3,200 yards from scrimmage and 22 touchdowns?

Never said that, I said you could get that production from an UDFA.

[MOtorboat]

Never said that, I said you could get that production from an UDFA.

It's still so unlikely. There are like four guys in the last 10 years that you could say that about. How many UDFA running backs enter the league every year? 30? 40? This list (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/4/27/4276394/undrafted-free-agent-tracker-2013) has 37 for this year.

So, four or five guys in the last 400. 1 percent. And we can make definitive statements like C.J. Anderson would produce that?

[BroncoWave]

It's still so unlikely. There are like four guys in the last 10 years that you could say that about. How many UDFA running backs enter the league every year? 30? 40? This list (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/4/27/4276394/undrafted-free-agent-tracker-2013) has 37 for this year.

So, four or five guys in the last 400. 1 percent. And we can make definitive statements like C.J. Anderson would produce that?

Don't go bringing silly things like facts into this discussion!

[Simple Jaded]

It's still so unlikely. There are like four guys in the last 10 years that you could say that about. How many UDFA running backs enter the league every year? 30? 40? This list (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/4/27/4276394/undrafted-free-agent-tracker-2013) has 37 for this year.

So, four or five guys in the last 400. 1 percent. And we can make definitive statements like C.J. Anderson would produce that?

I am not saying UDFA's are annually setting the world on fire as much as l'm saying Moreno is thoroughly replacable. You can get this kind of player off Craig's List. Idk, maybe 2013 will be different.

[BroncoWave]

I am not saying UDFA's are annually setting the world on fire as much as l'm saying Moreno is thoroughly replacable. You can get this kind of player off Craig's List. Idk, maybe 2013 will be different.

If it were as easy as you say, why have we not replaced him yet? This regime didn't draft him, so they don't have any loyalty to him or any need to prove his worth. If we could just pick up any old UDFA and match his production for cheaper, why would we not have done so yet?

[Simple Jaded]

Don't go bringing silly things like facts into this discussion!

The original point is fact as well, being how y'all dismiss Anderson at the same time y'all still hold out hope for Moreno. Derogatory statements about Anderson's spot on the depth chart is followed by ignoring Moreno's spot BEHIND two of the most unproven RB's in the league.

I guess the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't know.

[Simple Jaded]

If it were as easy as you say, why have we not replaced him yet? This regime didn't draft him, so they don't have any loyalty to him or any need to prove his worth. If we could just pick up any old UDFA and match his production for cheaper, why would we not have done so yet?

Because he is sooooooo good at Pass Pro?

[BroncoWave]

Who has diminished Anderson? Not a single person is doing that. ALLLL we are saying is that as an UDFA, he has a very small chance of actually succeeding. No one is saying that he CAN'T succeed or be better than Moreno, just that the odds are against it. As Mo pointed out, there is about a 1% chance he will produce more than Moreno in his NFL career.

Excuse us for saying something that has a 1% chance of happening is unlikely. We are all so sorry.

[Simple Jaded]

Whatever, my hope is Moreno plays well enough this season to price himself out of Denver's future plans next offseason.

[Simple Jaded]

Who has diminished Anderson? Not a single person is doing that. ALLLL we are saying is that as an UDFA, he has a very small chance of actually succeeding. No one is saying that he CAN'T succeed or be better than Moreno, just that the odds are against it. As Mo pointed out, there is about a 1% chance he will produce more than Moreno in his NFL career.

Excuse us for saying something that has a 1% chance of happening is unlikely. We are all so sorry.
Is this thread the only place on the planet discussing Anderson?

[SR]

Is this thread the only place on the planet discussing Anderson?

Yes

[BroncoWave]

Is this thread the only place on the planet discussing Anderson?

Other than people paid to cover the Broncos, absolutely. He's had one good preseason game against 4th stringers. Why would anyone outside of Broncos fans/media know who he is?

[dogfish]

you can't spell moreno without MO!

[Simple Jaded]

Other than people paid to cover the Broncos, absolutely. He's had one good preseason game against 4th stringers. Why would anyone outside of Broncos fans/media know who he is?

My point is, apparently you've either had your head up your ass or you've never heard/read the rest of the talk about Anderson outside of this thread this week.

[TXBRONC]

For as many things that have gone wrong tonight I think both Hillman and Ball did ok other than the goaline fumble.

[Simple Jaded]

For as many things that have gone wrong tonight I think both Hillman and Ball did ok other than the goaline fumble.

I agree, the OL looked better too.

[jhildebrand]

How many of those drives and shit you're talking about really mattered in the regular season though? The team won 11 games in a row...

All the other guys you mention are BY FAR the exception and NOT the rule. But hey, go ahead and keep on since apparently you're the expert and I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground...

Where did I claim to be the expert, Jack? :confused: My comments were pretty clear and properly prefaced/framed.

You were the one speaking in absolute certainties. Get real! Go negg someone else.

[jhildebrand]

It's funny how every time we try to say to wait a bit before proclaiming a UDFA a stud, someone always responds with "but TD and Rod Smith and Arian Foster!", as if we don't know who those people are.

It's funny how so many cannot read what was plainly written and prefaced, BTB. It was stated several times at the beginning of this thread that it was simply the PRESEASON. But keep projecting.

[jhildebrand]

He's had one good preseason game against 4th stringers. Why would anyone outside of Broncos fans/media know who he is?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe they follow the ever small, tiny football conference called the PAC 12. :rolleyes:

[TXBRONC]

I agree, the OL looked better too.

Ramirez and Clark need to be off the field as soon as possible but other than that did ok. They were able to keep Manning upright but I still don't want those two out there for an entire season. If I'm not mistaken Clady might to play a little bit next week.

[Simple Jaded]

It's funny how every time we try to say to wait a bit before proclaiming a UDFA a stud, someone always responds with "but TD and Rod Smith and Arian Foster!", as if we don't know who those people are.

Terrell Davis was a Broncos RB who was actually drafted in the 6th round and is a dark horse candidate for the HoF (acronym for Hall of Fame, as in Pro Football Hall of Fame), Rod Smith was an UDFA WR who also played for the Broncos and retired as the leading undrafted WR in terms of receiving yardage, and Arian Foster is an UDFA RB who plays for the Texans.......he's pretty good too.

You're welcome.

[Joel]

Two years ago we lead the League in rushing with McGahee rushing 1,100 yards. Last year McGahee was on pace for another 1,100 yards rushing. While our rushing was ranked lower last year than the year before the difference was the change at quarterback. I think that's the biggest reason for the fall in production in the running game.

Lance is worthy of roster spot because he can play special teams and he 's descent pass receiver out of the backfield. He's definitely not someone build your running game around but he's ok in spot duty.
We were also second in attempts that year, behind only the Texans, and if we MUST talk about the difference QBs made we must also remember that:

In 2011 our QB averaged 5.4 yards to the teams 4.8 in 122 of our 546 runs (and just 11 starts;) in 2012 our QB averaged 0.3 yards to the teams 3.8 in 23 of our 481 runs.

Our running production AND EFFICIENCY dropped one full yard per attempt; the QB change was a big reason, but in the OPPOSITE of the way suggested. Futher underscoring the point, the only change on the line was Koppen replacing Walton, which I hope we can all agree was a big improvement (the coaches certainly did; Walton never regained his job, even once healthy.)

Anyway, the injury sucks, but that it was far less severe than it first appeared is welcome news. Hopefully we IR him, but I'm also curious what this does to the prospects of Jeremiah Johnson (the only Bronco who had a higher 2011 rushing average than our QB, unless we count Eddie Royals seven runs, but I don't know why we would.)

[Simple Jaded]

They pay QB's to throw the ball, anything they give you in the running game is merely a bonus.

[Simple Jaded]

Btw, all those rushing yards just wouldn't be possible without the vaunted pistol.

[Joel]

They pay QB's to throw the ball, anything they give you in the running game is merely a bonus.
I won't go that far, but it's their main job description. I wasn't disputing that or taking a position either way on whether the QB change was an overall improvement, only that it was detrimental to the running game in particular. Especially in the progressively more passing oriented NFL, a 20% rushing benefit for a -50% passing detriment is not a net gain, certainly not from a QB. This thread isn't about a passer or passers though, and rushing 10% less for 25% less yards is not a net RUSHING gain, whatever happens to passing.

It's far more fair to criticize 2011 Broncos QBs passing than rushing, certainly by comparison to 2012 Broncos QBs; that doesn't mean the latter doesn't pass much better, or passing isn't far more important in QBs.

[SR]

Where did I claim to be the expert, Jack? :confused: My comments were pretty clear and properly prefaced/framed.

You were the one speaking in absolute certainties. Get real! Go negg someone else.

Negg?

[MOtorboat]

I won't go that far, but it's their main job description. I wasn't disputing that or taking a position either way on whether the QB change was an overall improvement, only that it was detrimental to the running game in particular. Especially in the progressively more passing oriented NFL, a 20% rushing benefit for a -50% passing detriment is not a net gain, certainly not from a QB. This thread isn't about a passer or passers though, and rushing 10% less for 25% less yards is not a net RUSHING gain, whatever happens to passing.

It's far more fair to criticize 2011 Broncos QBs passing than rushing, certainly by comparison to 2012 Broncos QBs; that doesn't mean the latter doesn't pass much better, or passing isn't far more important in QBs.

:facepalm:

Really? They go from 25th in points (309) and 23rd in yards (5066) to 2nd in points (481) and 4th in yards (6366) and you want to haggle over 500 rushing yards as a benchmark for whether the offense was better or worse?

[Bosco]

Novel writing is interesting business. ;) Second book comes out in a couple of months (doing final passes on editing and commissioning a cover now). As Bartles & James would say, thank you for your support. :D

I'm trying to find the article that said that undrafted players who make a 53-man are about as likely to succeed (have a several year career as pros) as either 3rd or 4th rounders. Somebody did a ten year draft breakdown and compared UDFAs to the bunch, I'm not making up the stat. Like you said, in sheer numbers there are more undrafteds, but the undrafteds that earn a shot tend to be as good as middle round picks as far as finding success. So if CJ made the 53 you might as well consider him a middle-round pick as far as your expectations for him going forward.

Can't find it right now though. I hope the internet didn't lose it. *laughs* I'll look more after work.

~G

Thanks man. I'd definitely like to take a look at that article. Maybe I was wrong in my assessment. Looks like your novel has got good reviews on Amazon!

[Simple Jaded]

I won't go that far, but it's their main job description. I wasn't disputing that or taking a position either way on whether the QB change was an overall improvement, only that it was detrimental to the running game in particular. Especially in the progressively more passing oriented NFL, a 20% rushing benefit for a -50% passing detriment is not a net gain, certainly not from a QB. This thread isn't about a passer or passers though, and rushing 10% less for 25% less yards is not a net RUSHING gain, whatever happens to passing.

It's far more fair to criticize 2011 Broncos QBs passing than rushing, certainly by comparison to 2012 Broncos QBs; that doesn't mean the latter doesn't pass much better, or passing isn't far more important in QBs.

I have no idea what this says but I have no doubt that I would disagree if I did.

[Jsteve01]

While we're on the subject, Anderson seemed to bring something to the table that literally every back seattle trotted out last night seems to offer. Powerful, punishing running. Of course lynch and Michael bring it. Ware obviously showed some pop last night, and we all know how i felt about passing on Turbin last year so we could trade up and draft a scat back. I get the dimension that a game breaker adds to the team but at the end of the day in the run game I'd rather have a steady eddie that can generate tough yards than a guy who every once in a while may pop one but for the most part wets the bed when you need them to step up.

[dogfish]

While we're on the subject, Anderson seemed to bring something to the table that literally every back seattle trotted out last night seems to offer. Powerful, punishing running. Of course lynch and Michael bring it. Ware obviously showed some pop last night, and we all know how i felt about passing on Turbin last year so we could trade up and draft a scat back. I get the dimension that a game breaker adds to the team but at the end of the day in the run game I'd rather have a steady eddie that can generate tough yards than a guy who every once in a while may pop one but for the most part wets the bed when you need them to step up.

and hillman's not a gamebreaker anyway. . . we should have drafted muscle hampster, and tried to trade up in the 2nd for wolfe. . .

[Jsteve01]

and hillman's not a gamebreaker anyway. . . we should have drafted muscle hampster, and tried to trade up in the 2nd for wolfe. . . I'm not going that far, although I'm a huge Martin fan.

[dogfish]

I'm not going that far, although I'm a huge Martin fan.

man, think how good this offense would be with that kind of back. . .


okay, i'll stop now. . . :laugh:

[ShaneFalco]

We were also second in attempts that year, behind only the Texans, and if we MUST talk about the difference QBs made we must also remember that:

In 2011 our QB averaged 5.4 yards to the teams 4.8 in 122 of our 546 runs (and just 11 starts;) in 2012 our QB averaged 0.3 yards to the teams 3.8 in 23 of our 481 runs.

Our running production AND EFFICIENCY dropped one full yard per attempt; the QB change was a big reason, but in the OPPOSITE of the way suggested. Futher underscoring the point, the only change on the line was Koppen replacing Walton, which I hope we can all agree was a big improvement (the coaches certainly did; Walton never regained his job, even once healthy.)

Anyway, the injury sucks, but that it was far less severe than it first appeared is welcome news. Hopefully we IR him, but I'm also curious what this does to the prospects of Jeremiah Johnson (the only Bronco who had a higher 2011 rushing average than our QB, unless we count Eddie Royals seven runs, but I don't know why we would.)
We became a team of finesse instead of smashmouth. I agree .

[MOtorboat]

Yeah, I mean, I'd much rather go back to having the worst passing game in the league to gain a few extra rushing yards. Totally worth it.

[MOtorboat]

Here's the kicker on the "I wish we had 2011's rushing game over 2012":

2012: 12 rushing touchdowns.
2011: 11 rushing touchdowns.

All those yards, and so little touchdowns...

[TXBRONC]

I'll probably regrets this but I going ask anyway. Moreno get into the game in the second half. IIRC he was dealing with a bruised knee or maybe a bruised thigh I can't remember for sure and I don't recall seeing him on the sideline during the first half. I'm only asking out of curiosity.

[MOtorboat]

I'll probably regrets this but I going ask anyway. Moreno get into the game in the second half. IIRC he was dealing with a bruised knee or maybe a bruised thigh I can't remember for sure and I don't recall seeing him on the sideline during the first half. I'm only asking out of curiosity.

He did not play (http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/56123/SEA_Gamebook.pdf). Knee, or vagina. One of the two.

[TXBRONC]

He did not play (http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/56123/SEA_Gamebook.pdf). Knee, or vagina. One of the two.

Thank you.

[Simple Jaded]

Here's the kicker on the "I wish we had 2011's rushing game over 2012":

2012: 12 rushing touchdowns.
2011: 11 rushing touchdowns.

All those yards, and so little touchdowns...

Yeah but what the 2011 offense lacked in TD's they more than made up for in 3-and-outs.

[Joel]

:facepalm:

Really? They go from 25th in points (309) and 23rd in yards (5066) to 2nd in points (481) and 4th in yards (6366) and you want to haggle over 500 rushing yards as a benchmark for whether the offense was better or worse?
No. A RUSHING offense that went from 546 rushes for 2632 yards and 11 TDs to 481 rushes for 1829 yards and and 12 TDs is more than "haggling." It's a difference of just over 800 yards (not 500,) and if anyone thinks they don't matter unless they get points: Watch the end of regulation in our last playoff game. Or the end of overtime, where we played over 15:00 and lost our season on a pick at our end of the field. As scoring totals and rates climb, ball control matters more than ever, and incompletes or sideline passes don't keep the ticker ticking.


Yeah, I mean, I'd much rather go back to having the worst passing game in the league to gain a few extra rushing yards. Totally worth it.
That's not what I said at all. I said rushing declined as indisputably as passing increased; whether one thinks that good, bad or indifferent can't change the fact it HAPPENED.

[SR]

I have no idea what this says but I have no doubt that I would disagree if I did.

It's a long post that says nothing.

[SR]

No. A RUSHING offense that went from 546 rushes for 2632 yards and 11 TDs to 481 rushes for 1829 yards and and 12 TDs is more than "haggling." It's a difference of just over 800 yards (not 500,) and if anyone thinks they don't matter unless they get points: Watch the end of regulation in our last playoff game. Or the end of overtime, where we played over 15:00 and lost our season on a pick at our end of the field. As scoring totals and rates climb, ball control matters more than ever, and incompletes or sideline passes don't keep the ticker ticking.


That's not what I said at all. I said rushing declined as indisputably as passing increased; whether one thinks that good, bad or indifferent can't change the fact it HAPPENED.

MO makes the only point that really matters...points scored. Those extra few hundred yards that were rushed for in 2011 were empty yards because they didn't yield any points...it was all between the 20s and it was all because Tebow couldn't move the ball with his arm. You can't really say "look at the Baltimore playoff game" as justification because it was one game that had so much bad shit happen in it that you can't really pinpoint one thing. That game was bad for the offense, period.

I'm not sure what point you're really trying to make at all.

[BroncoWave]

and hillman's not a gamebreaker anyway. . . we should have drafted muscle hampster, and tried to trade up in the 2nd for wolfe. . .

That's easy to say in hindsight. If teams knew he would be good as he has, he wouldn't have been around until our pick. Besides, I don't typically think it's a good idea to spend a first round pick on a RB. Short shelf life and it's such an easy position to replace.

[TXBRONC]

That's easy to say in hindsight. If teams knew he would be good as he has, he wouldn't have been around until our pick. Besides, I don't typically think it's a good idea to spend a first round pick on a RB. Short shelf life and it's such an easy position to replace.

What make your opinon superior to Dog's? Quite honestly your opinion is no better than Dog's.

[TXBRONC]

MO makes the only point that really matters...points scored. Those extra few hundred yards that were rushed for in 2011 were empty yards because they didn't yield any points...it was all between the 20s and it was all because Tebow couldn't move the ball with his arm. You can't really say "look at the Baltimore playoff game" as justification because it was one game that had so much bad shit happen in it that you can't really pinpoint one thing. That game was bad for the offense, period.

I'm not sure what point you're really trying to make at all.

There are probably a lot people myself included who don't understand what he's trying to get at. For all that extra rushing yardage Denver couldn't even manage 20 ppg and that's pedestrian scoring average. All that extra running yardage was useless to Denver when they played the Patriots, Lions, and Bills. All three of those teams beat the snot out of the Broncos.

[BroncoWave]

What make your opinon superior to Dog's? Quite honestly your opinion is no better than Dog's.

In what way did I make my opinion superior to dog's? He gave his opinion, I gave mine. Please tell me, because I really am trying to fight this view held of me that I think my opinion is superior to others.

All I did was disagree with him and tell him why. What wording in my post made it come off as me being superior?

[TXBRONC]

In what way did I make my opinion superior to dog's? He gave his opinion, I gave mine. Please tell me, because I really am trying to fight this view held of me that I think my opinion is superior to others.

All I did was disagree with him and tell him why. What wording in my post made it come off as me being superior?

"That's easy to say that in hindsight." I'm sure he knows that. That inparticular that stuck me that way.

That aside I have to admit yes I've noticed difference.

[Simple Jaded]

No. A RUSHING offense that went from 546 rushes for 2632 yards and 11 TDs to 481 rushes for 1829 yards and and 12 TDs is more than "haggling." It's a difference of just over 800 yards (not 500,) and if anyone thinks they don't matter unless they get points: Watch the end of regulation in our last playoff game. Or the end of overtime, where we played over 15:00 and lost our season on a pick at our end of the field. As scoring totals and rates climb, ball control matters more than ever, and incompletes or sideline passes don't keep the ticker ticking.


That's not what I said at all. I said rushing declined as indisputably as passing increased; whether one thinks that good, bad or indifferent can't change the fact it HAPPENED.

The Broncos ran the ball at the end of regulation in that playoff game, I'm not sure how this helps whatever your point is.

[Joel]

MO makes the only point that really matters...points scored. Those extra few hundred yards that were rushed for in 2011 were empty yards because they didn't yield any points...it was all between the 20s and it was all because Tebow couldn't move the ball with his arm. You can't really say "look at the Baltimore playoff game" as justification because it was one game that had so much bad shit happen in it that you can't really pinpoint one thing. That game was bad for the offense, period.

I'm not sure what point you're really trying to make at all.
The point was the original one: Our running production dropped dramatically last year, and (minus He Who Must Not Be Named) wasn't great before, so it needs a big boost. Thus losing anyone who looks like he even MIGHT provide it hurts unless someone can and does step up to fill that void. Think we average 4.8 yds/attempt in 2011 without the guy who got 22% of our carries and averaged 5.4?

For all the "Passing isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing" attitude now, good teams close out games running, especially in the playoffs. It wasn't the playoffs, but remember 2011 against Chicago, when we all laughed at Marion Barber running out of bounds at the end of regulation, then fumbling the winning score right into our laps in OT? A poor running game (and DJ pushing Barber out) turned a 3 point win into a 3 point LOSS.

The only difference between that and last January is 1) we were up by a full TD, 2) our QB gave up the game-winning turnover and 3) it was the playoffs, so it ended our season and sent them to the AFCCG.


The Broncos ran the ball at the end of regulation in that playoff game, I'm not sure how this helps whatever your point is.
Yeah, we ran: 5 times for 16 yds, running a whopping 2:03 off the clock with our 1 first down and impressive 3.2 yard average. Sure, Rahim "the Nightmare" shouldn't have let Flacco complete a 70 yd pop fly TD in just 20 seconds—but if we get a first down after they call their last time out with 1:03 to play they never get a chance, because it's Victory Formation. Everyone focuses on "why run on 3rd and 7?!" (the correct answer being "because of our defense can't protect a 7 pt lead with 1:03 to play and 70 yds of field our season's over ANYWAY,") but the real question is "why was it 3rd and 7 after two runs?" Because the first one gained 2 yds and the second only ONE.

We have an oustanding passing attack now, no question: But teams don't win Super Bowls JUST passing. We should know that, because we tried, and couldn't even win one playoff game, even at Mile High in January. Remember the sideline shots in the 4th? The Ravens were beat, and knew it; we just couldn't finish the job.

It's a thread about a young back who showed flashes in his first preseason game going down in his second: What does that suggest is my point? What did I explicitly and repeatedly say it was?

Thanks though, man; the "I'm'a play dumb to imply you're delusionally conceited" schtick never gets old. You should TOTALLY try it on, say, your boss; I'm confident deliberately misunderstanding what you're told to make clear you think s/he's an ass will be duly impressive. ;)

[dogfish]

That's easy to say in hindsight. If teams knew he would be good as he has, he wouldn't have been around until our pick. Besides, I don't typically think it's a good idea to spend a first round pick on a RB. Short shelf life and it's such an easy position to replace.

lol. . . it was also easy to say the day after the draft. . .


oh, well. . .

[Joel]

I understand the "short shelf life" argument, but never the "easily replaced" one. If great RBs are easily replaced, why haven't we managed to DO so in the last decade? I love Mike Anderson to death, but he was never great; our last great running back RETIRED—two years ago! Is it just a non-priority for us, has our run blocking been THAT bad THAT long, or are great RBs actually not a dime a dozen?

Who and WHERE are these hordes? Peterson, Foster... CJ2K? Maybe? McFadden? Too soon to say if his barn-storming season or injury-prone ones are the norm. Steven Jackson, MJD? A few years ago maybe; now?

Whatever one thinks of Bleacher Report, they listed (and ranked) every back on an NFL roster this April. Moreno's #38; Ben Tate's #27 as a BACKUP (to Foster granted, but still, they think he'd START on half a dozen teams.) McGahee's #20—and unemployed. Jamaal Charles is #4, which I could buy—5 years ago. Ray Rice and C.J. Spiller are next, but good, not great. Effective, not dominating. The only other NFL back who looks (potentially) great is Richardson, but it's way too soon to know. So: Who? http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1444366-br-nfl-1000-2013-top-90-running-backs/page/71

[BroncoWave]

lol. . . it was also easy to say the day after the draft. . .


oh, well. . .

If it were that easy to say after the draft I don't think he would have fallen into the late 20s. It's still way to early to say not picking him was a mistake. Wolfe looks very promising and we still don't know about Osweiler. Now if Oz turns out to be a total bust and Martin makes multiple Pro Bowls then yeah, it will look a little worse not picking him. But I'm not gonna call it a mistake yet.

[dogfish]

If it were that easy to say after the draft I don't think he would have fallen into the late 20s. It's still way to early to say not picking him was a mistake. Wolfe looks very promising and we still don't know about Osweiler. Now if Oz turns out to be a total bust and Martin makes multiple Pro Bowls then yeah, it will look a little worse not picking him. But I'm not gonna call it a mistake yet.

*sighs*

i said it was easy for me to say the day after the draft. . . because. . .

wait for it. . .

i DID say it the day after the draft!

:lol:


you don't ever have to say it, or believe it. . .

[BroncoWave]

*sighs*

i said it was easy for me to say the day after the draft. . . because. . .

wait for it. . .

i DID say it the day after the draft!

:lol:


you don't ever have to say it, or believe it. . .

Well it was way to early to say it then. Still too early now. :)

[TXBRONC]

Well it was way to early to say it then. Still too early now. :)

I see you still always have to have the last word.

[BroncoWave]

I see you still always have to have the last word.

I had work all day so I was just able to get back to this thread. Probably a good time to leave this thread though. Dog and I aren't going to change each other's minds. Thank you for keeping me in check. :)

[dogfish]

I see you still always have to have the last word.

BTB knows we just sit around, waiting for him to tell us when it's okay to have an opinion. . .

[BroncoWave]

BTB knows we just sit around, waiting for him to tell us when it's okay to have an opinion. . .

I apologize if that's how I came off. Believe it or not, that's actually not how I try to post. I'm obviously just not very adept at expressing disagreements in the proper manner. I honestly don't mean anything personal by anything I post. I just get over-zealous in how I defend my positions.

[TXBRONC]

I apologize if that's how I came off. Believe it or not, that's actually not how I try to post. I'm obviously just not very adept at expressing disagreements in the proper manner. I honestly don't mean anything personal by anything I post. I just get over-zealous in how I defend my positions.

A lot of us do myself included. Sometimes it's not a bad thing just to let it go for at least a little while.

[dogfish]

I apologize if that's how I came off. Believe it or not, that's actually not how I try to post. I'm obviously just not very adept at expressing disagreements in the proper manner. I honestly don't mean anything personal by anything I post. I just get over-zealous in how I defend my positions.

no apology necessary, it wasn't taken personally. . . your behavior isn't offensive, it's just obnoxious. . . :laugh:

i do think it would do you a world of good to consider that over-zealousness, and understand that you don't need to "win" every discussion on the internet-- and that, in any case, beating people over the head with repitition of your opinions doesn't constitute victory anyway. . . say your piece, and move on unless you have something new to add. . . i think you get into these circular arguments by just firing off responses to whatever the last post was, and it really does look like you just want the last word, and can't let it go. . .

like in this instance. . . i stated that it isn't hindsight to repeat comments that i made a year ago-- instead of simply acknowledging that, you immediately found another way to disagree. . . and it's not a debate i'm at all interested in having, because there's no "proving it" one way or the other. . . sometimes, it really, truly is OKAY to just let other people have their opinions, even if you don't share them. . . ;)

i hope that helps. . .

[dogfish]

oh, look, the UDFA just made the team. . .


:welcome:

[TXBRONC]

oh, look, the UDFA just made the team. . .


:welcome:

Shocking. :shocked:

[camdisco24]

Shocking. :shocked:

I did not realize his recovery time was so short. Glad we took a chance on him. Love Lance Ball, but CJ has more upside.

[TXBRONC]

I did not realize his recovery time was so short. Glad we took a chance on him. Love Lance Ball, but CJ has more upside.

Apparently what he did impressed Fox in a big way.

[jhildebrand]

We're just fine with the backs we still have and there's zero reason to bring in another back.

Still believe that? :confused:

[silkamilkamonico]

We're just fine with the backs we still have and there's zero reason to bring in another back.

Still believe that? :confused:
probaby not, with the benefit of hindsight ofcourse.

[jhildebrand]

Benefit of hindsight? :confused: I beg to differ. It was clear coming into the season, and after preseason, who Hillman was. In fact, some posted as much in the thread. Our 3 RB's are almost the same prototype/build of RB which isn't ideal if a team is going RBBC. This team needed a more physical back as a compliment to Moreno and Montee.

[silkamilkamonico]

Maybe a difference of opinion. Hillman has ran the ball very well, other than the fact that he is showing he can't hang on to the ball, which now he shouldn't even be playing and I think everyone agrees. We did bring another RB in, a 2nd round investment - just the wrong RB. CJ Anderson was looking good and should now get a chance with the Hillman debacle. Pretty evident Knowshon made it clear very early on in the season that running was not going to be a problem, and it hasn't up until yesterday, when we had a completely overhaul oline that Adrian Peterson wouldn't be able to run against. We've ran the ball well all season. Much better than anyone anticipated.

I disagree with the physical back sentiment. We got rid of McGahee because our offense is a shotgun based, tempo oriented scheme, which not only does not benefit the idea of a physical back, but takes them out of their element of running behind the center. Even after last night, if people are pointed our RB's, they aren't looking at the real issue which is the oline, IMO.

[dogfish]

Maybe a difference of opinion. Hillman has ran the ball very well, other than the fact that he is showing he can't hang on to the ball, which now he shouldn't even be playing and I think everyone agrees. We did bring another RB in, a 2nd round investment - just the wrong RB. CJ Anderson was looking good and should now get a chance with the Hillman debacle. Pretty evident Knowshon made it clear very early on in the season that running was not going to be a problem, and it hasn't up until yesterday, when we had a completely overhaul oline that Adrian Peterson wouldn't be able to run against. We've ran the ball well all season. Much better than anyone anticipated.

I disagree with the physical back sentiment. We got rid of McGahee because our offense is a shotgun based, tempo oriented scheme, which not only does not benefit the idea of a physical back, but takes them out of their element of running behind the center. Even after last night, if people are pointed our RB's, they aren't looking at the real issue which is the oline, IMO.

there are guys who can bring both elements. . . a healthy ray rice or mo jones drew would be wicked in this offense. . . i won't say that ball or hillman can't get better, it's too early for that. . . the initial returns don't look so great, though-- knowshon's the only back we can rely on right now, and we have to keep our fingers crossed that he can stay healthy. . . and he's a free agent next year, IIRC. . . if one of the young guys doesn't step up significantly in the next couple months, i'm afraid it's going to be a priority in the off-season again. . . given the importance of pass pro, i'd (reluctantly) almost prefer a veteran back, but our cap situation is gonna be dicey. . .

i do agree that the banged up OL is a major factor. . . IMO, that just adds another item or two to the off-season list. . . granted, we've also had really bad luck there-- the depth was actually holding up until franklin went down. . . not surprising that losing our second tackle in addition to two centers is starting to cause a negative impact. . . hopefully franklin will be back soon, but if he's not, justice does give us another experienced option-- and walton may be available soon as well, though he's likely just emergency depth for this year. . . kuper clearly isn't right, although i'm sure he will improve some once he knocks the rust off. . . he may never get back to where he was physically, though. . . he could be a cap casualty, and i think walton may be a free agent. . . the starting group is fine if they're healthy, but the backup OL might be a prime candidate for some changes next year. . .