Broncos Working on Cutting Kuper's Pay

[LTC Pain]

Per PFT. And if the Broncos are trying to reduce/restructure Kuper's salary then I have to assume the team intends on keeping him. Not sure what position he will play? Convert to center maybe? This article indicates Kuper will start practicing next week.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/13/broncos-working-on-cutting-chris-kupers-pay/

[Dapper Dan]

I like this. I would love to keep Kuper. I was afraid he would get cut for cap reasons. Hopefully they settle on something.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It's done


The Broncos and guard Chris Kuper have agreed to a restructured contract that gives the six-year starter a strong chance to make the 53-man roster providing he proves sufficiently recovered from his left ankle injury.

The new contract will reduce Kuper's 2013 salary from $4.5 million, zero of which was guaranteed, to $1.05 million, all of which is guaranteed. Kuper can also make another $1.7 million in game and playing time bonuses.

Had the Broncos waived/injured Kuper, they would have saved the $4.5 million, but he would have been entitled to a $1.05 million injury protection settlement. Thus, the base salary in his new deal. Kuper's non-guaranteed salaries of $5 million in 2014 and $5.5 million in 2015 remain intact.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_23851047/broncos-restructure-guard-chris-kupers-contract

[GEM]

I like this, I would like to see Kupe back, he was a badass on the line.

[rationalfan]

This should make some people happy. Let the over-speculation begin:

@MileHighReport Kuper snapped to Manning before the start of today's practice:

pic.twitter.com/oRNsTonjXB

[GEM]

This should make some people happy. Let the over-speculation begin:

@MileHighReport Kuper snapped to Manning before the start of today's practice:

pic.twitter.com/oRNsTonjXB

I'll take a Kuper on the recovery over Manny any day of the week. Manny is effing terrible.

[BroncoWave]

Man, if Kuper could just get healthy and stay that way it would be great to have him at center. A healthy line of Clady-Beadles-Kuper-Vasquez-Franklin would be quite formidable.

[TXBRONC]

Per PFT. And if the Broncos are trying to reduce/restructure Kuper's salary then I have to assume the team intends on keeping him. Not sure what position he will play? Convert to center maybe? This article indicates Kuper will start practicing next week.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/13/broncos-working-on-cutting-chris-kupers-pay/

I don't know about center but iirc he has experience at the college level at playing both guard and tackle. I know that there was some thought to possibly moving him to tackle back when Shanahan was still the head coach. Personally I would like to see him starting at his old positioin if he's healthy.

[broncofaninfla]

Is he currently on the PUP list?

[BroncoWave]

Is he currently on the PUP list?

He was taken off the PUP list and is practicing today.

[TXBRONC]

I like this, I would like to see Kupe back, he was a badass on the line.

Yep he has a down right nasty dispositon when he's on the field.

[GEM]

Am I the only one that thinks if he is 100%, he could take the job from Beadles?

[Traveler]

I don't know about center but iirc he has experience at the college at playing both guard and tackle. I know that there was some thought to possibly moving him to tackle back when Shanahan was still the head coach. Personally I would like to see him starting at his old positioin if he's healthy.

Unless something happens to Vasquez, I don't see Kuper ever going back to his old spot.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is Kuper pressing or even replacing Beadles. Admittedly, I'm not seeing him practice everyday, but I really don't see any progress with Beadles in pass protection. He still has trouble anchoring and gets walked back into the QB far too often for my tastes. Rarely did you ever see that with Kuper until his injury. Beadles is in his contract year and I wouldn't be unhappy if got traded or they let him test the FA market. All this assumes Kuper's 100% healthy of course.

[BroncoWave]

Am I the only one that thinks if he is 100%, he could take the job from Beadles?

He probably could, but the debate would be if the better C-LG combo is Kuper-Beadles or Lilja-Kuper. I think I'd rather keep Beadles on the line than Kuper. The obvious question though is if Kuper can pick up the center position. If he can, I'd rather have him there.

[Dzone]

Im curious to know the extent of the damage to Kupers leg. Iirc it happened in december 2012. Was he pretty healthy prior to that? Did he break both bones in his lower leg/ankle? They say that when a broken bone heals, it is stronger than it was before. I guess a lot depends on if there was nerve damage and other complications

[Traveler]

Im curious to know the extent of the damage to Kupers leg. Iirc it happened in december 2012. Was he pretty healthy prior to that? Did he break both bones in his lower leg/ankle? They say that when a broken bone heals, it is stronger than it was before. I guess a lot depends on if there was nerve damage and other complications

If it takes a plate to hold things together, not a good thing IMO. IIRC, the DP article states the metal plate "shattered" the bone.

[TXBRONC]

Am I the only one that thinks if he is 100%, he could take the job from Beadles?

When he's healthy he's the best and most versatile interior lineman we have but I don't think he would take Beadles' job. It's that I don't think he couldn't beat him out in straight up competition but Beadles is solid and we're in worse shape at center than we are at guard.

[Ziggy]

That depends on what scheme they are running. In the power scheme, Beadles is outmatched quite often by defensive tackles. In the zone scheme he could thrive. He's still one of the best pulling guards in the game. Unfortunately, he's also one of the worst anchoring guards in the game. The ZBS masks that defficiency quite well.

[Traveler]

When he's healthy he's the best and most versatile interior lineman we have but I don't think he would take Beadles' job. It's that I don't think he couldn't beat him out in straight up competition but Beadles is solid and we're in worse shape at center than we are at guard.

What gives you confidence Kuper can quickly pick up the nuances of the center position? Guessing it's a much easier switch LG?

[TXBRONC]

Unless something happens to Vasquez, I don't see Kuper ever going back to his old spot.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is Kuper pressing or even replacing Beadles. Admittedly, I'm not seeing him practice everyday, but I really don't see any progress with Beadles in pass protection. He still has trouble anchoring and gets walked back into the QB far too often for my tastes. Rarely did you ever see that with Kuper until his injury. Beadles is in his contract year and I wouldn't be unhappy if got traded or they let him test the FA market. All this assumes Kuper's 100% healthy of course.

Ramirez was by far the weak link in the offenive line last year when he subbed for Kuper and as said earlier I think he's the best interior line we have if he's healthy. Given where Denver's line is right now it would be a better move at center than at left guard.

[TXBRONC]

What gives you confidence Kuper can quickly pick up the nuances of the center position? Guessing it's a much easier switch LG?

I always heard Kuper is pretty intelligent so I don't see the mental aspect as being a problem. As far as I know Ramirez has never played center until this year. Kuper is better all round blocker than Ramirez.

[GEM]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/kansas-city-chiefs/09000d5d8259f93a/Kuper-suffers-gruesome-ankle-injury

I'd say there was probably some hefty damage other than the bone(s).

Mcgahee's reaction. Priceless.

And how the hell is he on the cart not even flinching. Beast.

[GEM]

Ramirez was by far the weak link in the offenive line last year when he subbed for Kuper and as said earlier I think he's the best interior line we have if he's healthy. Given where Denver's line is right now it would be a better move at center than at left guard.

I agree that we need him at C if possible, but if it's Beadles vs. Kuper for guard and someone to handle C, I'd take a healthy Kupe over Beadles. Beadles has been ok, but nothing special. Plus the attitude Kupe has, mean and nasty, haven't had that on the line since he left, plus it's pretty hard for a guard to be so good at leadership that he makes capt., but Kupe did.

[Buff]

Am I the only one that thinks if he is 100%, he could take the job from Beadles?

The million dollar question is whether he will ever be 100% again - I don't think there is any question that he is/was the superior guard when he was totally healthy...

I just don't see how his foot returns to 100% this year when the plate they installed shattered the bones in his foot last season.

[TXBRONC]

I agree that we need him at C if possible, but if it's Beadles vs. Kuper for guard and someone to handle C, I'd take a healthy Kupe over Beadles. Beadles has been ok, but nothing special. Plus the attitude Kupe has, mean and nasty, haven't had that on the line since he left, plus it's pretty hard for a guard to be so good at leadership that he makes capt., but Kupe did.


As I said I believe when healthy he's best interior lineman we have and more than capable of beating out either guard that is currently starting. Franklin is no soft touch either he has pretty mean and nasty dispostion as well. That's why he and Kuper made such a good tandem when Kuper was our starting right guard.

I understand what you're saying and I agree is ok but right now who's really stepping up center that makes you feel comfortable? Lilja is possibility but I don't think he's ever played the positon at the pro level. I just hope he can back out on the field and I'm confident that wherever he would our line would be much better.

[G_Money]

A healthy Kuper at C would be devastating for opposing teams. He's a mauler. Kupe has made line calls before, and he understands at least some of the rigors of center. When Tom Nalen basically said, "better get Koppen" when asked how ManRam would do at center it confirmed all my worst fears, so no, I'm not feeling like Manny is the guy, will be the guy or even CAN be the guy. Nalen likes Kuper for it, so that means I'm a fan of it too.

Can Kuper actually play center? Well he was our backup long-snapper (also did that in college) so getting the ball back to Manning in the shotgun isn't gonna be a problem. The QB/C exchange is a tough thing just to walk into, but it's not like Ramirez had years of getting felt up by Manning under his, erm, belt before this. Manny's got a several week head start on Kuper, that's all. If Chris can learn fast (and be reasonably healthy) he's so much better at everything thank Ramirez that it's a no-brainer to get him out there in the middle of the line.

The backup plan should be Lilja. The backup-backup plan should be ManRam holding down the fort til Walton can get back on HIS peg-leg. Add in some praying to Jobu or whatever other voodoo deity you choose.

~G

[G_Money]

As I said I believe when healthy he's best interior lineman we have and more than capable of beating out either guard that is currently starting. Franklin is no soft touch either he has pretty mean and nasty dispostion as well. That's why he and Kuper made such a good tandem when Kuper was our starting right guard.

I understand what you're saying and I agree is ok but right now who's really stepping up center that makes you feel comfortable? Lilja is possibility but I don't think he's ever played the positon at the pro level. I just hope he can back out on the field and I'm confident that wherever he would our line would be much better.

Franklin and Vasquez should beast on the right side. Vasquez might have been better than Kuper even if Chris were healthy for that spot. I agree with GEM that in a Beadles-vs-Healthy-Kuper fight it's not much of a contest (Kupe wins) but Beadles proved when he didn't have an incompetent next to him that he was fine last year as the season progressed. ManRam is an incompetent, or best-case a complete novice at C who doesn't have the physical tools to be plus there either, so he'll drag Beadles down with him.

Beadles does some things very well, like pulling and reaching the next level. In a scenario with Kuper at C, having Beadles pull BEHIND the monster wall of Vasquez and Franklin should be brutal, absolutely brutal the kind of pain we could inflict on the ground.

That's what I want to see, not ManRam and Beadles being thrown like lawn darts at Manning's feet while he's trying to hand the ball off. Whether it's Kuper or Lilja at the C position, the important thing is that it's not Manny. I hate to rag on one guy like that, but he's not a kid - this is his 7th year in the league. He's a really strong guy who still can't anchor on the line, and he's not fast enough or competent enough with his footwork to be great in pass-protection or zone.

Maybe we'll get lucky and center will be the right position for him to start at for a championship team. I don't want to take that bet til all our other ones are exhausted.

~G

[broncohead]

Can beatles play center? Also it all just depends on kupers health

[G_Money]

Can beatles play center? Also it all just depends on kupers health

IIRC, Beadles and Walton were both looked at with center potential as rookies, and Walton beat him out handily (not surprising since it was a position Walton actually played in college). I'm looking for better-than-Walton, though Beadles might be able to make the adjustments better now. I'd rather have Beadles protected on both sides by quality players and in a comfortable position for him. Put Beadles in the best position to succeed.

~G

[rationalfan]

good discussions. but every time the board develops a "who should play center" thread i'm compelled to type this: y'all know we can't have studs at every position, right?

granted, center can be a key position on the offense. but one average guy on the line isn't going to destroy this offense/team. besides, peyton manning looked good in indy with a collection of less-than-stellar lineman (saturday, excluded). i think he'll be fine with a few pro-bowlers, a mauling right tackle and an average center.

[TXBRONC]

Franklin and Vasquez should beast on the right side. Vasquez might have been better than Kuper even if Chris were healthy for that spot. I agree with GEM that in a Beadles-vs-Healthy-Kuper fight it's not much of a contest (Kupe wins) but Beadles proved when he didn't have an incompetent next to him that he was fine last year as the season progressed. ManRam is an incompetent, or best-case a complete novice at C who doesn't have the physical tools to be plus there either, so he'll drag Beadles down with him.

Beadles does some things very well, like pulling and reaching the next level. In a scenario with Kuper at C, having Beadles pull BEHIND the monster wall of Vasquez and Franklin should be brutal, absolutely brutal the kind of pain we could inflict on the ground.

That's what I want to see, not ManRam and Beadles being thrown like lawn darts at Manning's feet while he's trying to hand the ball off. Whether it's Kuper or Lilja at the C position, the important thing is that it's not Manny. I hate to rag on one guy like that, but he's not a kid - this is his 7th year in the league. He's a really strong guy who still can't anchor on the line, and he's not fast enough or competent enough with his footwork to be great in pass-protection or zone.

Maybe we'll get lucky and center will be the right position for him to start at for a championship team. I don't want to take that bet til all our other ones are exhausted.

~G

I don't disagree with GEM I think Kuper is our best alround interior lineman when healthy. I just don't think Beadles job is in jeopardy because he's been solid. Having a the center be the weakest link in line is a much worse problem to have than a guard that isn't the greatest in the world.

[jhns]

Good to hear! Kuper is a stud when healthy. I actually thought he was already cut for some reason, so this news was a real surprise.

[rationalfan]

just heard elway on 104.3 the fan say vasquez is exactly who they thought he'd be, someone who is anchoring the right side of the line. good luck on kuper, or anyone, beating him out.

outside this thread's topic, but interesting, is that elway said montee ball and malik jackson were the other two guys who have really impressed him in camp.

[Traveler]

just heard elway on 104.3 the fan say vasquez is exactly who they thought he'd be, someone who is anchoring the right side of the line. good luck on kuper, or anyone, beating him out.

outside this thread's topic, but interesting, is that elway said montee ball and malik jackson were the other two guys who have really impressed him in camp.

Malik Jackson is my dark horse candidate to displace Robert Ayers as the starter.

[G_Money]

good discussions. but every time the board develops a "who should play center" thread i'm compelled to type this: y'all know we can't have studs at every position, right?

granted, center can be a key position on the offense. but one average guy on the line isn't going to destroy this offense/team. besides, peyton manning looked good in indy with a collection of less-than-stellar lineman (saturday, excluded). i think he'll be fine with a few pro-bowlers, a mauling right tackle and an average center.

Agreed, but we can't have a completely deficient center. If Ramirez can get up to average, that'd be great. Last year at guard he was somewhere between putrid and excremental. Walton was bad at center. The second Koppen got in at center Beadles went from a liability to "survivable, with plusses as a pulling guard." I don't want Beadles put next to a below-average performer, because I don't think he can lift them up. Instead, Beadles gets dragged down.

So yeah, at least an average center, and remember to run to the right on 3rd-and-short, because a ManRam/Beadles connection isn't budging anybody when it matters. I think Lilja can be average, and that would be fine. A heathy Kupe would be plus, but I dunno that he can get healthy fast enough to pull it off.

~G

[G_Money]

just heard elway on 104.3 the fan say vasquez is exactly who they thought he'd be, someone who is anchoring the right side of the line. good luck on kuper, or anyone, beating him out.

outside this thread's topic, but interesting, is that elway said montee ball and malik jackson were the other two guys who have really impressed him in camp.

I'm with Traveler, Malik Jackson is looking like the player we hoped he'd grow into, while Ayers remains the player I feared he'd be. I certainly hope Malik can step up and take the job. That would bode well for us.

John must be lying about Montee Ball, though. I've already heard from this board he's a bust. Too bad. :( Such a wasted draft pick.

~G

[rationalfan]

Agreed, but we can't have a completely deficient center. If Ramirez can get up to average, that'd be great. Last year at guard he was somewhere between putrid and excremental. Walton was bad at center. The second Koppen got in at center Beadles went from a liability to "survivable, with plusses as a pulling guard." I don't want Beadles put next to a below-average performer, because I don't think he can lift them up. Instead, Beadles gets dragged down.

So yeah, at least an average center, and remember to run to the right on 3rd-and-short, because a ManRam/Beadles connection isn't budging anybody when it matters. I think Lilja can be average, and that would be fine. A heathy Kupe would be plus, but I dunno that he can get healthy fast enough to pull it off.

~G

that goes without saying. but if lilja, or whomever, is average, does it matter? i don't know, but suspect things will be fine.

also, a question for all the people who criticize the Oline: do you really watch/study/analyze Oline play or are you just repeating what others said, pushing personal opinions or making broad generalizations?

i'm not trying to attack or question your thoughts. i'm just, truly, wondering if you study/understand Oline play. i don't watch it closely. none of my hardcore football friends do. i understand it on a very basic level. but the way some people talk about particular players i really wonder if lineman x is being analyzed or simply criticized out of habit. again, i don't know. honest question, here.

[Traveler]

OT (slightly)-

Who here can remember a time when we could talk of how defensive players brought in during the Shanahan era never seemed to get better? We were always bringing in someone else's disguarded (sp?) players since most of the guys drafted weren't too good or never developed.

Does my soul good to see a defensive staff actually make the players they selected better by "actually" coaching them up.

[GEM]

that goes without saying. but if lilja, or whomever, is average, does it matter? i don't know, but suspect things will be fine.

also, a question for all the people who criticize the Oline: do you really watch/study/analyze Oline play or are you just repeating what others said, pushing personal opinions or making broad generalizations?

i'm not trying to attack or question your thoughts. i'm just, truly, wondering if you study/understand Oline play. i don't watch it closely. none of my hardcore football friends do. i understand it on a very basic level. but the way some people talk about particular players i really wonder if lineman x is being analyzed or simply criticized out of habit. again, i don't know. honest question, here.


Manny really is terrible, Beadles is definitely serviceable, Kupe was phenomenal before his injury.

[G_Money]

The best thing about Kuper having been phenomenal is that I don't think he could beat out Vasquez one-on-one even if he was healthy. So if you can get Kuper healthy and still on the line, where he'd be the third-best lineman with Franklin as the 4th... man, now we're talking. :D

The short-yardage run game on the right side with Kuper at C would also be a bloody delight to behold.

~G

[G_Money]

that goes without saying. but if lilja, or whomever, is average, does it matter? i don't know, but suspect things will be fine.

also, a question for all the people who criticize the Oline: do you really watch/study/analyze Oline play or are you just repeating what others said, pushing personal opinions or making broad generalizations?

i'm not trying to attack or question your thoughts. i'm just, truly, wondering if you study/understand Oline play. i don't watch it closely. none of my hardcore football friends do. i understand it on a very basic level. but the way some people talk about particular players i really wonder if lineman x is being analyzed or simply criticized out of habit. again, i don't know. honest question, here.

I'm no expert on line play. It's not like I played it, I just watch it. In that sense I'm sure I miss some things, but honestly I watch line play more than skill play during games. I like the war in the trenches, and that probably started watching those Gibbs-led O-lines in the 90s.

I ragged hard on Beadles last year because he has strength deficiencies. He is terrific on the move, as he should be, since he was thought of as a ZBS lineman. He and Clady both were more suited to do extra ZBS work, and Kuper's good in that regard too. But Beadles got better over the year (once he and Walton were separated, basically, since they both have strength deficiencies and Walton has reach issues to compound it) and the Broncos started utilitizing him more on the move. I'm curious to see what tweaks Alex Gibbs brings back to us in his consulting role, but Dave Magazu (OL coach) is no slouch in his own right. Gibbs was busy working with guys like Painter early in the off-season, trying to coach up the youth. I'm hoping that helps down the line.

Manny is too slow and for a guy that benches 550 (and put up 40 reps of 225 at the combine!) he's not actually strong at the point of attack. It's not functional power. His footwork isn't good so he can't apply all that strength, or get to the 2nd level when he needs to with regularity. Vasquez throws DL around like bowling pins, but Manny never has done that and will not. He has a leverage problem, and gives up a lot of sacks. What was that stat from last year? We gave up 19 sacks in the 9 games he started and 2 in the 7 games he didn't.

I dunno man, I watch a lot of line play, and if there's great parts to Manny's game, or even good ones, I dunno what they are. He might be better at center. That's always possible. But he'll need to be a lot better not to be the very weak link on the OL. And if he drags Beadles back to where he started last year and not where he finished it, that only compounds the problem.

~G

[Ziggy]

Here's a radio interview with Kuper:
http://joiturner.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/HannibalQuote.png

He says he'll be competing at center, and that he thinks he'll be fully back in about 2 weeks. He also admitted that when the Broncos signed Vasquez to that deal that he would probably have to move positions or play somewhere else.

[CrazyHorse]

A starting offensive line of Clady - Beadles - Kuper - Vasquez - Franklin with game day back ups of Lilja and Clark sounds good to me.

[GEM]

The best thing about Kuper having been phenomenal is that I don't think he could beat out Vasquez one-on-one even if he was healthy. So if you can get Kuper healthy and still on the line, where he'd be the third-best lineman with Franklin as the 4th... man, now we're talking. :D

The short-yardage run game on the right side with Kuper at C would also be a bloody delight to behold.

~G

Suddenly, the OLine doesn't look so scary if we can make it happen. :dance:

[rationalfan]

I'm no expert on line play. It's not like I played it, I just watch it. In that sense I'm sure I miss some things, but honestly I watch line play more than skill play during games. I like the war in the trenches, and that probably started watching those Gibbs-led O-lines in the 90s.

I ragged hard on Beadles last year because he has strength deficiencies. He is terrific on the move, as he should be, since he was thought of as a ZBS lineman. He and Clady both were more suited to do extra ZBS work, and Kuper's good in that regard too. But Beadles got better over the year (once he and Walton were separated, basically, since they both have strength deficiencies and Walton has reach issues to compound it) and the Broncos started utilitizing him more on the move. I'm curious to see what tweaks Alex Gibbs brings back to us in his consulting role, but Dave Magazu (OL coach) is no slouch in his own right. Gibbs was busy working with guys like Painter early in the off-season, trying to coach up the youth. I'm hoping that helps down the line.

Manny is too slow and for a guy that benches 550 (and put up 40 reps of 225 at the combine!) he's not actually strong at the point of attack. It's not functional power. His footwork isn't good so he can't apply all that strength, or get to the 2nd level when he needs to with regularity. Vasquez throws DL around like bowling pins, but Manny never has done that and will not. He has a leverage problem, and gives up a lot of sacks. What was that stat from last year? We gave up 19 sacks in the 9 games he started and 2 in the 7 games he didn't.

I dunno man, I watch a lot of line play, and if there's great parts to Manny's game, or even good ones, I dunno what they are. He might be better at center. That's always possible. But he'll need to be a lot better not to be the very weak link on the OL. And if he drags Beadles back to where he started last year and not where he finished it, that only compounds the problem.

~G

good elaborations.

[Buff]

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but I think everyone is getting way ahead of themselves penciling him in as a contributor.

First, in 2011 he completely snapped his ankle in half, and tore a bunch of ligaments. Basically it was as bad as a break can be. Then last year his surgically repaired foot shattered midseason - and was only reconstructed back in January.

His foot will never be the same. The front office has all but replaced him in the lineup. And yet people are talking like they are expecting Captain Chris Kuper from 2010 to step in. It's just not gonna happen. I'd be shocked if he makes it out of training camp, and I don't expect him to be on the 53 man roster when the season starts.

[BroncoWave]

Thanks Dr. Buff!

[Buff]

Thanks Dr. Buff!

Beyond my own vast medical expertise, I'm just reading between the lines here. The actions of the front office would seem to indicate that they don't have much faith in him returning to form. Common sense would lead one to believe that a foot shattering twice in 2 years is going to have a hard time returning to 100% in 7 months.

I'm just thinking maybe we ought to manage our expectations a tad more.

[Ziggy]

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but I think everyone is getting way ahead of themselves penciling him in as a contributor.

First, in 2011 he completely snapped his ankle in half, and tore a bunch of ligaments. Basically it was as bad as a break can be. Then last year his surgically repaired foot shattered midseason - and was only reconstructed back in January.

His foot will never be the same. The front office has all but replaced him in the lineup. And yet people are talking like they are expecting Captain Chris Kuper from 2010 to step in. It's just not gonna happen. I'd be shocked if he makes it out of training camp, and I don't expect him to be on the 53 man roster when the season starts.

I think that a lot of us see Lilja as the starting center this season, with Kuper backing up all 3 interior line positions as a real possibility. Is he a guaranteed contributor? No. However, some of us are just stubbornly optimistic.

[BroncoWave]

Beyond my own vast medical expertise, I'm just reading between the lines here. The actions of the front office would seem to indicate that they don't have much faith in him returning to form. Common sense would lead one to believe that a foot shattering twice in 2 years is going to have a hard time returning to 100% in 7 months.

I'm just thinking maybe we ought to manage our expectations a tad more.

It doesn't really seem like that many of us are saying he will return to his pro bowl form as an o-lineman. The prevailing theme in this thread is that he could be our best option at center for now. Since he is still on the roster and is practicing now, it's fair to assume the team doesn't see him as damaged goods quite yet.

[Buff]

I think that a lot of us see Lilja as the starting center this season, with Kuper backing up all 3 interior line positions as a real possibility. Is he a guaranteed contributor? No. However, some of us are just stubbornly optimistic.

But here's my issue with that - if he is healthy enough to contribute, then he is better than Lilja or Ramirez even with zero experience at center. If he is not healthy enough to contribute - then there is no reason to keep a gimpy backup who can't help the team.

I just don't see where his skills are so diminished that he isn't a starter - but that we elect to keep him as a backup. I think either he is healthy and starting, or not healthy and not on the team. And I strongly suspect it's the latter.

[TXBRONC]

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but I think everyone is getting way ahead of themselves penciling him in as a contributor.

First, in 2011 he completely snapped his ankle in half, and tore a bunch of ligaments. Basically it was as bad as a break can be. Then last year his surgically repaired foot shattered midseason - and was only reconstructed back in January.

His foot will never be the same. The front office has all but replaced him in the lineup. And yet people are talking like they are expecting Captain Chris Kuper from 2010 to step in. It's just not gonna happen. I'd be shocked if he makes it out of training camp, and I don't expect him to be on the 53 man roster when the season starts.

No one is penciling Kuper for anything. We all for this to have any chance he has to be healthy. Second it's been speculated in the D.P. that Kuper came back too soon. As far as his ankle never being the same well Peyton Manning's neck isn't going ever the same but he still managing to play.

[G_Money]

But here's my issue with that - if he is healthy enough to contribute, then he is better than Lilja or Ramirez even with zero experience at center. If he is not healthy enough to contribute - then there is no reason to keep a gimpy backup who can't help the team.

I just don't see where his skills are so diminished that he isn't a starter - but that we elect to keep him as a backup. I think either he is healthy and starting, or not healthy and not on the team. And I strongly suspect it's the latter.

But if he's 80% healthy, enough to go in an emergency but not enough to start right off the bat, you'd cut him? Even knowing that 80% of Kuper is STILL better than Ramirez? That's what the next 3 weeks are for, to figure out if he's healthy enough to be a valid option in a downside scenario, or to start in an upside one. Hence the re-structured contract in the first place. You don't restructure the contract of a guy you plan to cut. The Broncos are making preparations that would enable him to be on the squad.

Hence the optimism you apparently despise in this thread.

~G

[Buff]

But if he's 80% healthy, enough to go in an emergency but not enough to start right off the bat, you'd cut him? Even knowing that 80% of Kuper is STILL better than Ramirez? That's what the next 3 weeks are for, to figure out if he's healthy enough to be a valid option in a downside scenario, or to start in an upside one. Hence the re-structured contract in the first place. You don't restructure the contract of a guy you plan to cut. The Broncos are making preparations that would enable him to be on the squad.

Hence the optimism you apparently despise in this thread.

~G

Well I guess his $$ is guaranteed this year, which I didn't realize previously. So he's not going to get cut. In which case, I will buckle in for the 80% experiment... But it's hard to quantify the impact of a bum foot on a guy who relies upon a strong base for leverage. I think the optimism is somewhat misguided... But I don't despise it.

[TXBRONC]

But here's my issue with that - if he is healthy enough to contribute, then he is better than Lilja or Ramirez even with zero experience at center. If he is not healthy enough to contribute - then there is no reason to keep a gimpy backup who can't help the team.

I just don't see where his skills are so diminished that he isn't a starter - but that we elect to keep him as a backup. I think either he is healthy and starting, or not healthy and not on the team. And I strongly suspect it's the latter.

G has it right you don't go to the trouble of restructuring the contract of a guy you're planning to cut. That's done for guys that can still help you otherwise that's just a waste of time.

[Buff]

G has it right you don't go to the trouble of restructuring the contract of a guy you're planning to cut. That's done for guys that can still help you otherwise that's just a waste of time.

Yeah - I didn't realize the $$ was guaranteed earlier. I should have. He's not going to get cut. But I still have my doubts about his effectiveness.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah - I didn't realize the $$ was guaranteed earlier. I should have. He's not going to get cut. But I still have my doubts about his effectiveness.

It's a legitimate concern.

[Dapper Dan]

No one is penciling Kuper for anything. We all for this to have any chance he has to be healthy. Second it's been speculated in the D.P. that Kuper came back too soon. As far as his ankle never being the same well Peyton Manning's neck isn't going ever the same but he still managing to play.

Kuper has about 300 pounds on his ankles. Manning only has about 100 pounds on his neck.

[Dapper Dan]

I see Kuper being a back up. If he starts, I think he gets hurt again. If he's a back up, he can play here and there. I think Lilja or Manny is our Center.

[Rick]

I'll take the best 5...

If he can hike the ball and is healthy I'll take a line of Clady Beatles Kuper Vazquez Franklin over Clady Kuper Manny Vazquez Franklin.

[tomjonesrocks]

It's done


The Broncos and guard Chris Kuper have agreed to a restructured contract that gives the six-year starter a strong chance to make the 53-man roster providing he proves sufficiently recovered from his left ankle injury.

The new contract will reduce Kuper's 2013 salary from $4.5 million, zero of which was guaranteed, to $1.05 million, all of which is guaranteed. Kuper can also make another $1.7 million in game and playing time bonuses.

Had the Broncos waived/injured Kuper, they would have saved the $4.5 million, but he would have been entitled to a $1.05 million injury protection settlement. Thus, the base salary in his new deal. Kuper's non-guaranteed salaries of $5 million in 2014 and $5.5 million in 2015 remain intact.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_23851047/broncos-restructure-guard-chris-kupers-contract

Huh. I like everything about it.

If he's finished and doesn't make it back, he's worth the effort. Otherwise it's another solid move.

[Dapper Dan]

It's a smart decision to keep him. It doesn't mean much. If we cut him or if we keep him, it's the same price. I'm wondering if some are reading too much into it.

[Broncolingus]

Concur with most that there is little 'downside' to this for the Broncos...

...also wonder how much - if any - concern there is at the (quality) depth at Center.

[G_Money]

It's a smart decision to keep him. It doesn't mean much. If we cut him or if we keep him, it's the same price. I'm wondering if some are reading too much into it.

That's actually not true. "The new contract will reduce Kuper's 2013 salary from $4.5 million, zero of which was guaranteed, to $1.05 million, all of which is guaranteed. Kuper can also make another $1.7 million in game and playing time bonuses. Had the Broncos waived/injured Kuper, they would have saved the $4.5 million, but he would have been entitled to a $1.05 million injury protection settlement."

So we put a million bucks against the cap that it was worth it to try to keep him, while allowing him to earn that extra 1.7 million, whereas a waiver gives us the whole 4.5 back. We obviously think he can contribute something otherwise we'd waive him before the season, save the whole 4.5 mil, and go get somebody else. The 1.05 million injury protection amount wouldn't have come against the cap. It's not roster money. Yes, we reduced his potential salary this year since he might just be a backup, but we put actual dollars on the line for his recovery.

We put roster money against the idea that he can help us. That's why it's looked at as a positive sign. By this guy, anyway. ;)

~G

[Dapper Dan]

In real money, it's the same amount. As for cap, you're right about that. But is $1mill against the cap that much? If we had cut him we would have the $1mill injury payment plus another $1mill against the cap because we will need a replacent for him. We are thin at interior line depth. So I'm sure we would sign someone else.

[Jsteve01]

I like that we're showing some loyalty to these tenured players who've been good players for us.

[G_Money]

Well, a million is more than Manny Ramirez is making. It's about what we signed Terrance Knighton and Stewart Bradley for. Shaun Phillips is making 1.4. Lilja has a million base with a 2ish mil cap hold for incentives.

Over a million bucks is not nothing when it comes to roster construction.

~G

[G_Money]

I like that we're showing some loyalty to these tenured players who've been good players for us.

Yeah. And letting Kuper get the chance to play himself onto the team if he can, and off it if he can't. Either way, he should get his shot.

~G

[Dapper Dan]

Well, a million is more than Manny Ramirez is making. It's about what we signed Terrance Knighton and Stewart Bradley for. Shaun Phillips is making 1.4. Lilja has a million base with a 2ish mil cap hold for incentives.

Over a million bucks is not nothing when it comes to roster construction.

~G

As for the rest of what I said?

If we cut Kuper we have to replace him.

$1mill for injury not against the cap and $1mill for Kuper's replacement which is against the cap.

Versus.

$1mill against the cap to keep Kuper.

[TXBRONC]

Kuper has about 300 pounds on his ankles. Manning only has about 100 pounds on his neck.

Well the neck is a portion of central nervous system is. Manning had nerve damage which as far as I know is not the case for Kuper.

I know Manning has a big head but 100lbs? :shocked:

[Dapper Dan]

Well the neck is a portion of central nervous system is. Manning had nerve damage which as far as I know is not the case for Kuper.

I know Manning has a big head but 100lbs? :shocked:

It was an estimate. It may be more. It may be slightly less. They say the camera adds 10 pounds.

I know Manning's was more serious and more severe. Of course, I'm no doctor. I really don't know a lot about Manning's injury and what all it includes and how well it's healed. In my mind, I see Manning's injury as an electrical system with wires. The wires have been fixed. I look at Kuper's like a tie-rod or something that's been broken and re-welded together. They may not make any sense. If it doesn't, just smile and nod.

[TXBRONC]

It was an estimate. It may be more. It may be slightly less. They say the camera adds 10 pounds.

I know Manning's was more serious and more severe. Of course, I'm no doctor. I really don't know a lot about Manning's injury and what all it includes and how well it's healed. In my mind, I see Manning's injury as an electrical system with wires. The wires have been fixed. I look at Kuper's like a tie-rod or something that's been broken and re-welded together. They may not make any sense. If it doesn't, just smile and nod.

Yeah that's got to be it the camera makes his head look like it weighs 100 lbs.

I get the analogy but nerve regeneration is hit and miss. Nerves for the most part do not regenerate if I remember my Anatomy and Physiology correctly. They can at times create new pathways it's not something that doctor can always count on. Edit: I just went back checked and checked on it. Nerve cells do not regenerate but nerve ends can.

Smile and nod like this? :nod:

[Dapper Dan]

Yeah that's got to be it the camera makes his head look like it weighs 100 lbs.

I get the analogy but nerve regeneration is hit and miss. Nerves for the most part do not regenerate if I remember my Anatomy and Physiology correctly. They can at times create new pathways it's not something that doctor can always count on. Edit: I just went back checked on it. Nerve cells do not regenerate but nerve ends can.

Smile and nod like this? :nod:

Well, it took my 3 tries to get a C in Biology. I couldn't imagine A&P, though everyone I know has or is taking it.

Maybe Peyton Manning is a robot.

[powderaddict]

I expect Kuper to play C and make the pro-bowl. My expectations are pretty strong, strong enough that I bet my house on it.

Was that wrong?

[Buff]

I expect Kuper to play C and make the pro-bowl. My expectations are pretty strong, strong enough that I bet my house on it.

Was that wrong?

I can't wait to move into your house.

[TXBRONC]

I expect Kuper to play C and make the pro-bowl. My expectations are pretty strong, strong enough that I bet my house on it.

Was that wrong?

Wrong? No, but maybe just a smidg to high.

[Dapper Dan]

Wrong? No, but maybe just a smidg to high.

Still, better odds than a Cubs World Series or a Browns Super Bowl.

[Joel]

This should make some people happy. Let the over-speculation begin:

@MileHighReport Kuper snapped to Manning before the start of today's practice:

pic.twitter.com/oRNsTonjXB
When my teams execs do something I've spent six months hoping they'd eventually do, yes it makes me happy. Here's hoping Kupes vindicates both of us, but I'm fairly confident he will. If nothing else, I consider a healthy Kuper better than a healthy Walton or Beadles, but the former isn't healthy and, sadly, I doubt Koppen plays another down, so restructuring Kuper to be our fifth or sixth best linemen (depending on ones opinion of Beadles) is a no brainer. As others have noted, it provides no depth at tackle, but that problem won't be solved this year and Kuper addresses currently more urgent ones on the interior line.

Thanks for your consistently solid, long and loyal (right down to a pay cut) service, Kupe; it's a big relief knowing you're sticking around for a title run or two. :salute:

[Nomad]

Here's an article about Kuper from the AP in the Anchorage Daily News....not sure if it was posted already.

http://www.adn.com/2013/08/13/3022944/alaskan-working-way-back-for-broncos.html