Wes Welker: I 'put up with' Belichick

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Denver Broncos wide receiver Wes Welker told Sports Illustrated that Bill Belichick was hard on him toward the end of his six-year run in New England, chiding him in front of teammates in a way the coach hadn't done previously.

"It was just kind of hard," Welker told the magazine in a story that appears in this week's edition, "one of those deals where you have to endure him, put up with him. ... But he does it to everybody. It's the way he is."

Welker's tenure in New England was already marked by its messy conclusion during the offseason, when the free-agent receiver joined the Broncos in a surprise move that resulted in a public squabble between Patriots owner Robert Kraft and Welker's reps.

rest - http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/9548477/wes-welker-says-bill-belichick-chided-front-new-england-patriots-teammates

[OrangeHoof]

Give the devil his due. Belicheat gets results. He didn't in Cleveland and that's why his act didn't last long. But pride comes before the fall and I think Bill's is coming this year or next.

[silkamilkamonico]

yea i thought that article made welker look soft. wonder how out of context it was if at all.

[Poet]

There always seemed to be friction between those two guys. It SEEMED to get worse after Welker was benched for a series against the Jets. It was a playoff game. Welker's clowning of Ryan was priceless.

[WTE]

There always seemed to be friction between those two guys. It SEEMED to get worse after Welker was benched for a series against the Jets. It was a playoff game. Welker's clowning of Ryan was priceless.

Yep, that routine Wes did about Rex' fascination w/ feet really pissed Bill off. That topic was completely limits and Bill made that perfectly clear to his players. Wes ignored those instructions and their relationship was never the same since.

Which kinda sucks from my perspective b/c I thought the bit Wes did in that presser was brilliant.

Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkvBhMIAWHA

[Mr Bojangles]

Give the devil his due. Belicheat gets results. He didn't in Cleveland and that's why his act didn't last long. But pride comes before the fall and I think Bill's is coming this year or next.

It's possible, assuming Bill bangs Bob's new squeeze and gets caught. Otherwise.....naw, not likely to happen, especially if they grab another Lombardi.

But keep hoping!

[Dzone]

Belichek is buddies with Mcdaniels. Thats all you need to know. Birds of a feather type thing going on there. Jerks tend to hang around with other jerks

[WTE]

Belichek is buddies with Mcdaniels. Thats all you need to know. Birds of a feather type thing going on there. Jerks tend to hang around with other jerks

~glug, glug, glug!!!

[TXBRONC]

Give the devil his due. Belicheat gets results. He didn't in Cleveland and that's why his act didn't last long. But pride comes before the fall and I think Bill's is coming this year or next.

He tripped over Tom Brady on his way to failure.

[Poet]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

[TXBRONC]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

No Charlie Weis did.

[WTE]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

You're right. Brady is the puppet. BB is the puppeteer.

#DumbShitKing

[Poet]

You're right. Brady is the puppet. BB is the puppeteer.

#DumbShitKing

You really, really suck at thinking.

[Jsteve01]

Liked Brady at Michigan. Listen. The only thing bb did to "make" tom was give him a shot. We are talking about a top 5 all time qb. You don't make them. They are born.

[Dapper Dan]

Liked Brady at Michigan. Listen. The only thing bb did to "make" tom was give him a shot. We are talking about a top 5 all time qb. You don't make them. They are born.

So, you're saying Tom Brady was...
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6231/fyot.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/fyot.jpg/)

[Northman]

Yep, that routine Wes did about Rex' fascination w/ feet really pissed Bill off. That topic was completely limits and Bill made that perfectly clear to his players. Wes ignored those instructions and their relationship was never the same since.

Which kinda sucks from my perspective b/c I thought the bit Wes did in that presser was brilliant.

Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkvBhMIAWHA


I agree. I thought it was brilliant.

[Dzone]

Brady is the puppet. BB is the puppeteer.


and Mcdaniels is the idiot

[WTE]

and Mcdaniels is the idiot

Bowlen was the bigger idiot for giving a guy who was too young and too inexperienced complete control over his billion dollar franchise.

[Poet]

Bowlen was the bigger idiot for giving a guy who was too young and too inexperienced complete control over his billion dollar franchise.

Billion?

Humuhnawha?

[MOtorboat]

Billion?

Humuhnawha?

$1.13 billion

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2012/09/05/forbes-ranks-denver-broncos-worth.html

[BroncoWave]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

I'm not sure I agree with that King. I would have probably agreed a few years ago, but the extremely high level Brady has been continuing to play at makes me think that he is the one making BB look good. You don't play at the level he plays at just because of good coaching. You have to be a damn good QB. The Pats have just had awful talent on that team outside the QB and TE positions the last few years and Brady continues to play at an elite level and lead them to 12 wins year after year. If they win 12 games again this year with the talent they have, I might be prepared to call him the best QB ever.

[Dzone]

Bowlen was the bigger idiot for giving a guy who was too young and too inexperienced complete control over his billion dollar franchise.

Mcdaniels is the idiot who couldnt get along with his players. Who is a bigger jerk, Mcdaniels or Belicheck?

[Dapper Dan]

If all of those guys are idiots, I really wish I was an idiot.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If all of those guys are idiots, I really wish I was an idiot.

You don't have to wish buddy. :laugh:


I jest, I jest :D

[Dzone]

If all of those guys are idiots, I really wish I was an idiot.
You would have to work real hard to be as big an idiot as Mcdaniels

[BroncoWave]

You would have to work real hard to be as big an idiot as Mcdaniels

McDaniels has probably forgotten more about football than anyone on this message board knows. Just because he's a horrible personnel guy doesn't make him an idiot when it comes to football.

[turftoad]

McDaniels has probably forgotten more about football than anyone on this message board knows. Just because he's a horrible personnel guy doesn't make him an idiot when it comes to football.

Just an idiot in general. ;)

[jhns]

McDaniels has probably forgotten more about football than anyone on this message board knows. Just because he's a horrible personnel guy doesn't make him an idiot when it comes to football.

I would say a guy who goes for Orton and Tebow is an idiot. That is for personnel and football in general. You can't know that much about the sport if you go for those guys.

Maybe the fact that he forgot so much is the problem?

[BroncoWave]

Not looking to get into this argument again at all since no one's mind will ever be changed on it, but I do find it funny when some guy on a message board thinks he knows more about football than anyone paid to actually coach it at the professional level. You should probably start sending your resume out.

[Ravage!!!]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

Horse shit... :lol:

[Northman]

Just an idiot in general. ;)

Yea, pretty much goes hand in hand.

[BroncoWave]

Horse shit... :lol:

Yeah, it's getting harder and harder to argue that point. BB never did anything as a coach until Brady came around, and he continues to do more with less than any QB in football. I'm thinking BB never even sniffs another SB once Brady retires.

[Dapper Dan]

Definition of IDIOT

1
usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation
2
: a foolish or stupid person

I simply have my doubts of an "idiot" being as successful at McDaniels, Bowlen, or Belichick.

If you don't like them. Fine. Trash them in the Smack Forum. But I don't see how people in their positions get there by being idiots.

[BroncoWave]

I simply have my doubts of an "idiot" being as successful at McDaniels, Bowlen, or Belichick.

If you don't like them. Fine. Trash them in the Smack Forum. But I don't see how people in their positions get there by being idiots.

They don't. And even if any of those guys were idiots and somehow lucked into their positions, they wouldn't have stuck around as long as each of them have. They would probably have been exposed as idiots by now and be out of football.

I get it if you want to say McD was an awful coach, but to say he's an idiot and that you know more about football than he does is just comical. There probably isn't a poster on this board who could make it one year as a position coach in the NFL, nonetheless an offensive coordinator or head coach. People with that level of football skill/knowledge aren't posting on football message boards, they are getting paid for their skills.

[Northman]

If you don't like them. Fine. Trash them in the Smack Forum.

People dont have to be in the smack forum to trash celebs, coaches, players, etc. They are free game on here.

[Ravage!!!]

Brady saved Belicheck from failing in NE. Brady has made Belicheck look fantastic, just as any great QB has made their coach look better. How many SBs did Noll win after Bradshaw (everyone duck, as King's head is going to explode)? How many Super Bowls did Landry win after Staubach? How many did Walsh win without Montana? How many did Jimmy win without Aikman?

Belicheck showed to be a very lousy HC when in Cleveland, and was showing to be a lousy HC in NE until Bledsoe was injured and Brady stepped in. Brady has made every OC look great, and then they leave and fail (McDaniels is perfect example).

How many Super Bowls has NE won since Weise left?

[powderaddict]

I simply have my doubts of an "idiot" being as successful at McDaniels, Bowlen, or Belichick.

If you don't like them. Fine. Trash them in the Smack Forum. But I don't see how people in their positions get there by being idiots.

Screw McD. He did plenty of stupid things. Maybe you would prefer we use "Giant Douchebag" instead of idiot?

[Dzone]

People dont have to be in the smack forum to trash celebs, coaches, players, etc. They are free game on here.
Absolutely. Any thread about Belicheck being a jerk, opens the door to calling Mcdaniels a jerk. lol

[Northman]

Screw McD. He did plenty of stupid things. Maybe you would prefer we use "Giant Douchebag" instead of idiot?

Giant douchebag works for me. :)

[BroncoWave]

Brady saved Belicheck from failing in NE. Brady has made Belicheck look fantastic, just as any great QB has made their coach look better. How many SBs did Noll win after Bradshaw (everyone duck, as King's head is going to explode)? How many Super Bowls did Landry win after Staubach? How many did Walsh win without Montana? How many did Jimmy win without Aikman?

Belicheck showed to be a very lousy HC when in Cleveland, and was showing to be a lousy HC in NE until Bledsoe was injured and Brady stepped in. Brady has made every OC look great, and then they leave and fail (McDaniels is perfect example).

How many Super Bowls has NE won since Weise left?

Also throw in Shanny after Elway.

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah, it's getting harder and harder to argue that point. BB never did anything as a coach until Brady came around, and he continues to do more with less than any QB in football. I'm thinking BB never even sniffs another SB once Brady retires.

I think he will retire after Brady retires....and he SHOULD. Why tarnish his legacy by sticking around like Noll did? Walsh was smart, leave and let your reputation grow behind you.

[BroncoWave]

Screw McD. He did plenty of stupid things. Maybe you would prefer we use "Giant Douchebag" instead of idiot?

That is probably much more apt. You can certainly be a giant douchebag and have success as a pro coach. Can't really do it by being an idiot though.

[Ravage!!!]

Also throw in Shanny after Elway.

The only reason I didn't put Shanahan's name in the list is because he's still coaching.

[Dzone]

Screw McD. He did plenty of stupid things. Maybe you would prefer we use "Giant Douchebag" instead of idiot?
Exactly! If people are offended with people calling Mcdaniels an idiot, lets just call him a Giant douchebag!!!
Mcdaniels sucks!!!!

[BroncoWave]

I think he will retire after Brady retires....and he SHOULD. Why tarnish his legacy by sticking around like Noll did? Walsh was smart, leave and let your reputation grow behind you.

I agree that would be the right move for him. Unless they hit some stroke of luck like the Colts did and have the next Elway fall into their laps, he would be smart to hand it up when Brady does. He really has nothing else to accomplish as a HC.

[Dzone]

That is probably much more apt. You can certainly be a giant douchebag and have success as a pro coach. Can't really do it by being an idiot though.

Youre splitting hairs here. Mcdaniels is an idiot, regardless of how much he knows about football.

[artie_dale]

Not looking to get into this argument again at all since no one's mind will ever be changed on it, but I do find it funny when some guy on a message board thinks he knows more about football than anyone paid to actually coach it at the professional level. You should probably start sending your resume out.

First of all, many people get paid to do jobs they not only suck at, but sometimes other people who get paid to do something else but are better at the other job. In other words, you aren't any more qualified to tell a stranger what they are or aren't good at, any more than they are.

Josh McDaniels is a great offensive coordinator and a HORRIBLE coach. Actions and history backs that up.

[BroncoWave]

Exactly! If people are offended with people calling Mcdaniels an idiot, lets just call him a Giant douchebag!!!
Mcdaniels sucks!!!!

I don't think anyone is offended by it, I think some of us just have a different opinion on the matter.

[PatriotsGuy]

Oh come on Wes

[Dapper Dan]

Whatever makes you guys feel better about your own lives. I'm not going to stop the circle jerk. I see no reason to jump in either.

[Ravage!!!]

Exactly! If people are offended with people calling Mcdaniels an idiot, lets just call him a Giant douchebag!!!
Mcdaniels sucks!!!!

Exactly.

I'm not comparing McDaniels to me, or anyone else on this board. When I say that Tebow and Orton sucks, I'm not comparing their skills to me or anyone on this board... I'm comparing them to people within their own field.

McDaniels has proved to be an IDIOT compared to other HCs in the NFL. In FACT... I would say that compared to nearly EVERY NFL COACH that has been around, McDaniels ranks to be the BIGGEST idiot I've SEEN!! So yeah, McDaniels is a friggin MORON on top of his idiocy, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ravage!!!]

First of all, many people get paid to do jobs they not only suck at, but sometimes other people who get paid to do something else but are better at the other job. In other words, you aren't any more qualified to tell a stranger what they are or aren't good at, any more than they are.

Josh McDaniels is a great offensive coordinator and a HORRIBLE coach. Actions and history backs that up.

He's good as long as Brady is the QB.

[BroncoWave]

I'm not comparing McDaniels to me, or anyone else on this board. When I say that Tebow and Orton sucks, I'm not comparing their skills to me or anyone on this board... I'm comparing them to people within their own field.

McDaniels has proved to be an IDIOT compared to other HCs in the NFL. In FACT... I would say that compared to nearly EVERY NFL COACH that has been around, McDaniels ranks to be the BIGGEST idiot I've SEEN!! So yeah, McDaniels is a friggin MORON on top of his idiocy, as far as I'm concerned.

This is a fair stance to have. At least you aren't trying to claim you know more about football than he does. Many on this board seem to have that opinion. I don't think people realize what it takes behind the scenes to make it as a pro coach, especially as a coordinator or a HC. Just because he failed tremendously as a HC doesn't mean he lacks football knowledge. I would say it's the leadership skills/knowledge that he lacks for being a HC, at least at this point in his life.

[Northman]

I'm not going to stop the circle jerk.

K, thanks.

[BroncoWave]

Also, what motivation would BB have to RE-hire McDaniels if he didn't think he would contribute to the Pats winning games? Do any of you really think he has some sort of loyalty to McDaniels that exceeds his desire to win? BB has shown time and time again he will get rid of huge contributors to the Pats if he thinks it helps the team win. Why would he bring back McD and keep him around if he were some mouthbreathing idiot who knows nothing about football?

I would love to hear an answer to this.

[BroncoJoe]

Jesus.

[Dzone]

This is a fair stance to have. At least you aren't trying to claim you know more about football than he does. Many on this board seem to have that opinion. .
There you go again, calling out board members. Please show us all where anyone claimed to know more about football than Mcdaniels.

[GEM]

I would say a guy who goes for Orton and Tebow is an idiot. That is for personnel and football in general. You can't know that much about the sport if you go for those guys.

Maybe the fact that he forgot so much is the problem?

And wanted Cassel. :lol:

[powderaddict]

Also, what motivation would BB have to RE-hire McDaniels if he didn't think he would contribute to the Pats winning games? Do any of you really think he has some sort of loyalty to McDaniels that exceeds his desire to win? BB has shown time and time again he will get rid of huge contributors to the Pats if he thinks it helps the team win. Why would he bring back McD and keep him around if he were some mouthbreathing idiot who knows nothing about football?

I would love to hear an answer to this.

Yeah yeah yeah we get it BB and McD are the best. We should probably get a cash pool going and get them a plaque that says "best humans EVER".

[BroncoWave]

There you go again, calling out board members. Please show us all where anyone claimed to know more about football than Mcdaniels.

Please. I have seen countless posts over the years from people saying that they could have done a better job coaching the Broncos than McDaniels did.

[Dzone]

Please. I have seen countless posts over the years from people saying that they could have done a better job coaching the Broncos than McDaniels did.
And they were probably right. Mcdaniels almost singlehandedly destroyed the franchise with his idiotic decisions.

[BroncoJoe]

Thanks to BTB for yet again telling all of us how to think.

[BroncoWave]

And they were probably right. Mcdaniels almost singlehandedly destroyed the franchise with his idiotic decisions.

I would be a lot of money that the majority of posters on this board (if not all of us) would go 0-16 if we were made head coach of pretty much any team in the NFL, especially one that only had 8-8 talent. I don't think people realize the SLIM margin of talent between the best and the worst teams in the league. So much of who wins and loses comes down to gameplanning, film study, and having your team prepared for what the other team might do.

Yes, most of you probably would have kept Cutler, Hillis, and Scheffler; but it wouldn't have meant shit if you had no clue of how to prepare an NFL team for Sunday (which no one on this board does).

So yes, I find it completely laughable that anyone on this board has the audacity to think they would do a better job coaching an NFL team than anyone who has ever actually been paid to do it as a head coach.

[Northman]

Also, what motivation would BB have to RE-hire McDaniels if he didn't think he would contribute to the Pats winning games? Do any of you really think he has some sort of loyalty to McDaniels that exceeds his desire to win? BB has shown time and time again he will get rid of huge contributors to the Pats if he thinks it helps the team win. Why would he bring back McD and keep him around if he were some mouthbreathing idiot who knows nothing about football?

I would love to hear an answer to this.

Why was Shanahan so adamant about hiring Slowik? They may just have a good relationship and considering that most HC's like yes men. Also, i think you take the "idiot" comments a bit too literal. As Dzone pointed out, your just splitting hairs for the sake of it.

[BroncoWave]

Thanks to BTB for yet again telling all of us how to think.

How am I telling you how to think? I'm simply saying how wrong I think you guys are. I've never once said that you have to think like I do, just that I think you're dead wrong for having the opinion that you do.

[BroncoWave]

Why was Shanahan so adamant about hiring Slowik? They may just have a good relationship and considering that most HC's like yes men. Also, i think you take the "idiot" comments a bit too literal. As Dzone pointed out, your just splitting hairs for the sake of it.

I would be willing to bet that HCs like winning more than having "yes men".

[BroncoJoe]

How am I telling you how to think? I'm simply saying how wrong I think you guys are. I've never once said that you have to think like I do, just that I think you're dead wrong for having the opinion that you do.

LOL. Classic BTB.

[BroncoWave]

Apparently vehement disagreement with an opinion equals telling someone how to think. Who knew? If that's the case, then 90% of the posters on this board tell others how to think all the time.

[Northman]

I would be a lot of money that the majority of posters on this board (if not all of us) would go 0-16 if we were made head coach of pretty much any team in the NFL, especially one that only had 8-8 talent.

1) Its irrelevant.

2) Who cares if people think McDaniels is a dumbass douche?

3) This isnt rocket science. You dont need a degree to coach football. Believe it or not at one time McDaniels was just like one of us who had a passion for football. The only difference is he chose to a profession in it. I would take your bet than anyone who wanted to coach football and went through the same process as McDaniels would of done just as good, worse, or better.

4) Just because there are people who get paid at their jobs in the NFL does not mean they are greatest at it.

5) If i had McD's "experience" in the NFL i do know one thing. I would of tweeked the offense and re-hauled the defense instead ripping apart a nucleus of a very good offense and getting in pissing contests with my players.

Its amazing that the only time McD has flourished (even as a OC) is in NE. He did squat for St. Louis. So spare me the sad rhetoric that McD is this hidden gem of a genius bit.

[Mike]

Apparently vehement disagreement with an opinion equals telling someone how to think. Who knew? If that's the case, then 90% of the posters on this board tell others how to think all the time.

No, it isn't. It is the way it comes across when you do it.

[BroncoWave]

So spare me the sad rhetoric that McD is this hidden gem of a genius bit.

I have never once claimed this.

[BroncoWave]

No, it isn't. It is the way it comes across when you do it.

If I were arguing that McDainels is an idiot and it were someone else who was defending him, I HIGHLY doubt any of you would be having any issues with how I was coming across while doing it.

[powderaddict]

I would be a lot of money that the majority of posters on this board (if not all of us) would go 0-16 if we were made head coach of pretty much any team in the NFL, especially one that only had 8-8 talent. I don't think people realize the SLIM margin of talent between the best and the worst teams in the league. So much of who wins and loses comes down to gameplanning, film study, and having your team prepared for what the other team might do.

Yes, most of you probably would have kept Cutler, Hillis, and Scheffler; but it wouldn't have meant shit if you had no clue of how to prepare an NFL team for Sunday (which no one on this board does).

So yes, I find it completely laughable that anyone on this board has the audacity to think they would do a better job coaching an NFL team than anyone who has ever actually been paid to do it as a head coach.

A HC is very important.

But I think I'm fairly confident in saying I could take over this Broncos team tonight and the team wouldn't go 0-16. Not saying I could do one millionth of the job Fox has done. But a PFM led team this stacked is going to win games regardless of the HC.

[BroncoJoe]

Apparently vehement disagreement with an opinion equals telling someone how to think. Who knew? If that's the case, then 90% of the posters on this board tell others how to think all the time.

Something should speak to you when you are constantly in the minority concerning your positions and opinions.

[BroncoWave]

A HC is very important.

But I think I'm fairly confident in saying I could take over this Broncos team tonight and the team wouldn't go 0-16. Not saying I could do one millionth of the job Fox has done. But a PFM led team this stacked is going to win games regardless of the HC.

A team with this much talent is probably an exception. But if you had taken over the 09 Broncos team with Jay Cutler as the QB, I think any of us would have struggled to win a game.

[powderaddict]

If I were arguing that McDainels is an idiot and it were someone else who was defending him, I HIGHLY doubt any of you would be having any issues with how I was coming across while doing it.

I don't know you at all, so it's not personal for me.

I guess I can't criticize a QB since I'm not as good as any of the QB's on a NFL roster?

[Mike]

If I were arguing that McDainels is an idiot and it were someone else who was defending him, I HIGHLY doubt any of you would be having any issues with how I was coming across while doing it.

Maybe. But, just offering this from my perspective so don't take offense, you come across like your opinion is vastly superior to anyone who disagrees with you and you talk down to people.

[Northman]

If I were arguing that McDainels is an idiot and it were someone else who was defending him, I HIGHLY doubt any of you would be having any issues with how I was coming across while doing it.

The only thing ive been confused on with you stance on McD is when you choose to defend him. In this case, most people who have called him an idiot did so based on what he did in Denver. And if im correct even you have admitted he failed here so why are you really that worried that people think he is a dolt? Unless your stance about him in Denver is different than your leading on?

[BroncoWave]

Something should speak to you when you are constantly in the minority concerning your positions and opinions.

I would say I agree with the majority of posters on here on most issues, but those are boring to discuss as I don't much care for circlejerks of similar opinions. I'm just vocal on the few issues that I have a strong disagreement with many members on, McD being one of the main ones.

For example, I agree with most people on here that Peyton Manning is an all-time great QB and has us a a Super Bowl contender, but that discussion isn't interesting to have since everyone agrees on it.

[BroncoJoe]

I would say I agree with the majority of posters on here on most issues, but those are boring to discuss as I don't much care for circlejerks of similar opinions. I'm just vocal on the few issues that I have a strong disagreement with many members on, McD being one of the main ones.

For example, I agree with most people on here that Peyton Manning is an all-time great QB and has us a a Super Bowl contender, but that discussion isn't interesting to have since everyone agrees on it.

So, you basically show up here to argue and be an instigator?

[powderaddict]

A team with this much talent is probably an exception. But if you had taken over the 09 Broncos team with Jay Cutler as the QB, I think any of us would have struggled to win a game.

Ok, but that's not what you said. You said:


I would be a lot of money that the majority of posters on this board (if not all of us) would go 0-16 if we were made head coach of pretty much any team in the NFL, especially one that only had 8-8 talent.

Even if we go with 8-8 talent, I'm guessing the assistant coaches have enough impact that a crappy HC such as myself would stumble into a couple wins. Either way, I'm going to be critical of coaches when I feel it is earned.

[BroncoWave]

The only thing ive been confused on with you stance on McD is when you choose to defend him. In this case, most people who have called him an idiot did so based on what he did in Denver. And if im correct even you have admitted he failed here so why are you really that worried that people think he is a dolt? Unless your stance about him in Denver is different than your leading on?

It's just fun for me to discuss. It doesn't personally offend me if you think he is an idiot, but i enjoy telling you why I think you're wrong.

[BroncoWave]

So, you basically show up here to argue and be an instigator?

How is giving a difference of opinion being an instigator?

[BroncoWave]

It's funny how I become the topic during every McDaniels thread. Maybe I do come across as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all when I post; but last I checked that isn't against the rules. I guess it's easier to make me the topic than to actually stick to talking about football.

[BroncoJoe]

How is giving a difference of opinion being an instigator?

And herein lies the problem. You hardly just give your opinion - you call out people and make leaps in your own assumptions as well.

[Northman]

It's funny how I become the topic during every McDaniels thread. Maybe I do come across as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all when I post; but last I checked that isn't against the rules. I guess it's easier to make me the topic than to actually stick to talking about football.

It's just fun for us to discuss. It doesn't personally offend us if you think we are wrong, but we enjoy telling you why we think you're wrong.

[BroncoWave]

And herein lies the problem. You hardly just give your opinion - you call out people and make leaps in your own assumptions as well.

Who have I personally called out in this thread?

[Mike]

It's funny how I become the topic during every McDaniels thread. Maybe I do come across as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all when I post; but last I checked that isn't against the rules. I guess it's easier to make me the topic than to actually stick to talking about football.

It isn't. We all are at times. But maybe understanding how you come across will help you understand why people respond the way they do? :whoknows:

[BroncoWave]

It isn't. We all are at times. But maybe understanding how you come across will help you understand why people respond the way they do? :whoknows:

Which one of these two is against the rules here: Coming off as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all...or personally attacking a specific poster and making him or her the topic of the thread?

[Mike]

Which one of these two is against the rules here: Coming off as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all...or personally attacking a specific poster and making him or her the topic of the thread?

There wasn't an attack. You post the way you do (as described above) and it baits people. I have seen it repeatedly over the years this board has been here. I have seen people suspended because of it. You make yourself a target by your attitude and then when people tire of it and say something you report it.

[BroncoJoe]

Yep. BTB loves to dish it out, but most definitely can't take any backlash to his unpopular opinion.

[BroncoWave]

There wasn't an attack. You post the way you do (as described above) and it baits people. I have seen it repeatedly over the years this board has been here. I have seen people suspended because of it. You make yourself a target by your attitude and then when people tire of it and say something you report it.

Odd, mods usually encourage us to report posts that are against the rules. And here you sit criticizing me for doing so. Really sends a mixed message.

[CrazyHorse]

Brady saved Belicheck from failing in NE. Brady has made Belicheck look fantastic, just as any great QB has made their coach look better. How many SBs did Noll win after Bradshaw (everyone duck, as King's head is going to explode)? How many Super Bowls did Landry win after Staubach? How many did Walsh win without Montana? How many did Jimmy win without Aikman?

Belicheck showed to be a very lousy HC when in Cleveland, and was showing to be a lousy HC in NE until Bledsoe was injured and Brady stepped in. Brady has made every OC look great, and then they leave and fail (McDaniels is perfect example).

How many Super Bowls has NE won since Weise left?

What about Joe Gibbs? Did his quarterbacks make him? He won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks.

[BroncoJoe]

What about Joe Gibbs? Did his quarterbacks make him? He won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks.

I think you know the answer to that question.

[BroncoJoe]

Odd, mods usually encourage us to report posts that are against the rules. And here you sit criticizing me for doing so. Really sends a mixed message.

Only to you.

[turftoad]

There wasn't an attack. You post the way you do (as described above) and it baits people. I have seen it repeatedly over the years this board has been here. I have seen people suspended because of it. You make yourself a target by your attitude and then when people tire of it and say something you report it.


Odd, mods usually encourage us to report posts that are against the rules. And here you sit criticizing me for doing so. Really sends a mixed message.

Really BTB? Did you read Mikes WHOLE post or just the last few words of it? If you haven't noticed, people here are trying to help you out.

Anyway. Let's try get this thing back on topic.

[UnderArmour]

In Welker's defense, he has a point. Welker has 0 rings from his time in New England and Belichick's teams have come up short since their 3/4 run. The management style of Belichick and McDaniels can pay dividends for a coach as it does get hard working players out on the field, but at the end of the day coaches do have to allow their players to have their own personalities; they have to allow their players to have fun doing what they do and communicate their expectations of players to the players so they can grow into their roles. When players aren't enjoying their job or they feel their performance is more likely to be credited to the coach, even if the team is winning, you get mistakes in critical moments. The Giants beat the Patriots twice because their guys wanted it more. Plays like David Tyree's catch don't happen when the coach is the one standing front and center to grab the camera and the glory when things go right.

[jhns]

Not looking to get into this argument again at all since no one's mind will ever be changed on it, but I do find it funny when some guy on a message board thinks he knows more about football than anyone paid to actually coach it at the professional level. You should probably start sending your resume out.

I don't think you know much about what it takes to get a job in the NFL. It isn't like McDaniels worked his way up from high school coach. He had connections who got him a job. The connection being his dad. That was pretty obvious the one time he didn't have Bellicheck and Brady leading him around. It's usually easy to tell which coaches got into the NFL based on connections vs earning their way in.

The guy brought this franchise it's highest ever NFL draft pick. What a great coach!

[WTE]

Originally Posted by Ravage!!! View Post
Brady saved Belicheck from failing in NE. Brady has made Belicheck look fantastic, just as any great QB has made their coach look better.



You're right. The Patriots were awful the year Tom Brady tore his ACL. They looked just as bad as the year the Colts lost Peyton.

What was NE's record w/ crappy Cassell at QB? 2-14?

:rollseyes

[BroncoJoe]

You're right. The Patriots were awful the year Tom Brady tore his ACL. They looked just as bad as the year the Colts lost Peyton.

What was NE's record w/ crappy Cassell at QB? 2-14?

:rollseyes

Well, they didn't do well enough to make the playoffs...

[TXBRONC]

So, you're saying Tom Brady was...
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6231/fyot.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/fyot.jpg/)

He's a transvestite?

[WTE]

Well, they didn't do well enough to make the playoffs...

They finished 11-5. Since the NFL went to a 16 game schedule only two teams have finished 11-5 and failed to make the playoffs. Obviously NE is one and I'm sure you know the other.

[Buff]

McDaniels has probably forgotten more about football than anyone on this message board knows. Just because he's a horrible personnel guy doesn't make him an idiot when it comes to football.

Personnel was a problem, but not his biggest problem. He was a terrible leader. That is/was his issue. Very bright football mind - as knowledgeable as anyone - but he was not a leader of men.

[Mr Bojangles]

McDaniels has probably forgotten more about football than anyone on this message board knows. Just because he's a horrible personnel guy doesn't make him an idiot when it comes to football.

He may not be an idiot, but anyone who thought a youngster like him was ready to run the entire show ought to be up for consideration in the category.

I'm not a fan of McDaniels, or a few of the other young coaches who have worked for Bill. Mangina, for example. These guys are football coaches, not rocket engineers. They are overseeing some of the best athletes in the world. How tough is that job, really? It is Brady who makes the NE O Coordinator and coaches look good. He'd make Joe Smoe look good, but every Joe Some who comes along is not head coach material. Some are, some aren't. The difference between being able to coordinate an offense is light years removed from running the whole show. It's like steering the ship vs Captaining the fleet.

So, while Josh might not be an idiot, he wasn't ready for the Denver job. And he may never be ready for another, but that's not to say he's a moron, guy.

[broncohead]

You're right. The Patriots were awful the year Tom Brady tore his ACL. They looked just as bad as the year the Colts lost Peyton.

What was NE's record w/ crappy Cassell at QB? 2-14?

:rollseyes

I would bet there was a lot of QBs that would have produced good numbers with the Moss and Welker of 2008

[TXBRONC]

If I were arguing that McDainels is an idiot and it were someone else who was defending him, I HIGHLY doubt any of you would be having any issues with how I was coming across while doing it.

Even when we agree there is just something about the way you that chaps my ass. :D

[TXBRONC]

Maybe. But, just offering this from my perspective so don't take offense, you come across like your opinion is vastly superior to anyone who disagrees with you and you talk down to people.

Nail meet hammer.

[broncohead]

He may not be an idiot, but anyone who thought a youngster like him was ready to run the entire show ought to be up for consideration in the category.

I'm not a fan of McDaniels, or a few of the other young coaches who have worked for Bill. Mangina, for example. These guys are football coaches, not rocket engineers. They are overseeing some of the best athletes in the world. How tough is that job, really? It is Brady who makes the NE O Coordinator and coaches look good. He'd make Joe Smoe look good, but every Joe Some who comes along is not head coach material. Some are, some aren't. The difference between being able to coordinate an offense is light years removed from running the whole show. It's like steering the ship vs Captaining the fleet.

So, while Josh might not be an idiot, he wasn't ready for the Denver job. And he may never be ready for another, but that's not to say he's a moron, guy.

His offense has only produced with a hof QB. When brady went down he also had Moss and Welker. Both dominant players that most any QB could produce with

[TXBRONC]

They finished 11-5. Since the NFL went to a 16 game schedule only two teams have finished 11-5 and failed to make the playoffs. Obviously NE is one and I'm sure you know the other.

So the hell what the Pasties still didn't make the playoffs that's the bottom line. Since you want bring it up the Pasties could beat any good teams.

[BroncoWave]

So the hell what the Pasties still didn't make the playoffs that's the bottom line. Since you want bring it up the Pasties could beat any good teams.

The 7-9 Seahawks made the playoffs one year. 8-8 teams make it alot. I would say that 11-5 Pats team is probably better than alot of those 7 or 8 win playoff teams. They just happened to pick a really bad year to go 11-5.

[TXBRONC]

I would bet there was a lot of QBs that would have produced good numbers with the Moss and Welker of 2008

Cassell didn't have to make play for the Pasties win although when they played good teams they lost to them.

[Day1BroncoFan]

McDaniel's is an idiot in my opinion.

I'm glad Wes is playing for us now and out of the grasp of the DDB's. (double douche bags)

[BroncoWave]

when they played good teams they lost to them.

Some might say the same thing about our Broncos team from this past year. Just because you mostly beat up on bad teams and lose to the good teams you play doesn't mean you aren't also a good team. I don't have their schedule from that 11-5 record in front of me, but I'm sure at least a few of those 5 losses were close games that could have gone either way.

[Dzone]

I would say I agree with the majority of posters on here on most issues, but those are boring to discuss as I don't much care for circlejerks of similar opinions. I'm just vocal on the few issues that I have a strong disagreement with many members on, McD being one of the main ones.

For example, I agree with most people on here that Peyton Manning is an all-time great QB and has us a a Super Bowl contender, but that discussion isn't interesting to have since everyone agrees on it.
So you come on here looking for a chance to argue with everyone and be an instigator.
Ok, its pretty obvious what you are all about and why you come on here.

[BroncoWave]

So you come on here looking for a chance to argue with everyone and be an instigator.
Ok, its pretty obvious what you are all about and why you come on here.

Not really. I'm here for interesting discussion, and the more interesting discussions tend to come when posters have a strong disagreement on the opinion. That's not to say I don't have conversations where I'm largely agreeing with everyone in the thread, because I have plenty of those as well. See the "no mile high salute" thread as an example.

[TXBRONC]

The 7-9 Seahawks made the playoffs one year. 8-8 teams make it alot. I would say that 11-5 Pats team is probably better than alot of those 7 or 8 win playoff teams. They just happened to pick a really bad year to go 11-5.

So the freak what the Seahawks don't even play in comference so your point is irrelevant. They didn't win enough game to get into the playoffs in '08 did they?

[BroncoWave]

So the freak what the Seahawks don't even play in comference so your point is irrelevant. They didn't win enough game to get into the playoffs in '08 did they?

My point is completely relevant about the Seahawks. You seem to be claiming that making the playoffs is the be-all, end-all in this discussion. If that's the case, then you would have to say that the 7-9 Seahawks were better than the 11-5 Pats. Are you prepared to say that? Because if not, you would be saying that making the playoffs doesn't necessarily mean that you are better than a team who didn't make the playoffs.

11-5 gets you into the playoffs 99% of the time. Just because the Pats did it in a really fluky year doesn't mean that 11-5 is not an impressive record.

[BroncoWave]

So the freak what the Seahawks don't even play in comference so your point is irrelevant. They didn't win enough game to get into the playoffs in '08 did they?

If I had said this, you would be complaining that I am acting like a know-it-all and being a douche. I guess it's ok when you do it though, right?

[TXBRONC]

Some might say the same thing about our Broncos team from this past year. Just because you mostly beat up on bad teams and lose to the good teams you play doesn't mean you aren't also a good team. I don't have their schedule from that 11-5 record in front of me, but I'm sure at least a few of those 5 losses were close games that could have gone either way.

Did we win enough games last year to get into the playoffs yes or no? Did the Patriots win enough games 08 to make the playoffs? Obviously the record book says they didn't win enough games to make the playoffs.

Again it's irrelavent if those games were close. A loss is still a loss.

[GEM]

Which one of these two is against the rules here: Coming off as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all...or personally attacking a specific poster and making him or her the topic of the thread?

Just because someone speaks directly to you or says that they think you are arrogant does not make it a personal attack. If they were to say You arrogant punk, that's a personal attack.

[BroncoWave]

Did we win enough games last year to get into the playoffs yes or no? Did the Patriots win enough games 08 to make the playoffs? Obviously the record book says they didn't win enough games to make the playoffs.

Again it's irrelavent if those games were close. A loss is still a loss.

You didn't answer my question. Were the 7-9 Seahawks a better team than the 11-5 Pats? It's a pretty simple yes or no.

[BroncoWave]

Just because someone speaks directly to you or says that they think you are arrogant does not make it a personal attack. If they were to say You arrogant punk, that's a personal attack.

So if I were to say "I think that GEM is a real bitch", that's not a personal attack?

[TXBRONC]

If I had said this, you would be complaining that I am acting like a know-it-all and being a douche. I guess it's ok when you do it though, right?

Yep because I didn't attack you I explained why that point is irrelavent. As you said when do it comes off as you being a know it all douche. Although I wouldn't say you're a douche just whinny. Mike just explained all this to you earlier post.

[Dzone]

Which one of these two is against the rules here: Coming off as a smug, arrogant, know-it-all...or personally attacking a specific poster and making him or her the topic of the thread?
I dont think there are any rules against coming off as a smug, arrogant , know-it-all, so you are fine

[Ravage!!!]

Please. I have seen countless posts over the years from people saying that they could have done a better job coaching the Broncos than McDaniels did.

That probably would be true, as nearly everyone (including John Elway himself) wouldn't have made the IDIOTIC personnel moves that McDaniels did. That, alone, would have made anyone a better HC than McDaniels.

[Dzone]

When an alleged Bronco fan passionately defends Josh Mcdaniels, well, there is something very strange about that

[TXBRONC]

You didn't answer my question. Were the 7-9 Seahawks a better team than the 11-5 Pats? It's a pretty simple yes or no.

You did not ask me ask me question you made a statement. Second the question you're asking now is exactly why people see you as a smatass know it all. Finally, your question is irrelavent those teams in different divisions and different conferences.

[BroncoWave]

When an alleged Bronco fan passionately defends Josh Mcdaniels, well, there is something very strange about that

Oh how cute, you are playing the "not a real Broncos fan" card. Fan police FTW!

[BroncoWave]

You did not ask me ask me question you made a statement. Second the question you're asking now is exactly why people see you as a smatass know it all. Finally, your question is irrelavent those teams in different divisions and different conferences.

It's a valid question. It doesn't make me a pompous know-it-all whatsoever. I'm simply challenging your point. It's an easy yes or no question.

The year the Pats went 11-5, they had one of the 12 best records in the NFL. They just had the misfortune of being in the wrong conference at the wrong time. That doesn't mean they weren't a really good team that year.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Wes Welker anyone?

[jhns]

Anyone who defends the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise, can't really be that great of a fan. That is just common sense.

[BroncoWave]

Anyone who defends the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise, can't really be that great of a fan. That is just common sense.

And we have another fan policeman on the scene! Am I under arrest? :lol:

[UnderArmour]

Oh how cute, you are playing the "not a real Broncos fan" card. Fan police FTW!

Can you at least pretend that you're contributing to the thread? Nobody comes to these boards to read petty nonsense from ego-driven posters such as yourself. Contribute to a discussion or don't post in a thread, regardless of what other posters are posting. You could have easily rebuked "McDaniels is a solid Xs and Os coach, but as a leader of men and as a motivator he is awful" and that would have been entirely legitimate as most hold that opinion as fact. When you engage in discussions of "well McDaniels knows more than you" "NUH-UH!" "YA-HUH!" with the "YA-HUH" you really served no actual purpose in a discussion. You're just posting for the sake of posting.

I don't even know what argument you're even trying to have here. Is it over the structure of the playoffs? That the automatic qualifier division spot is unfair? That playoff entry is a better indication of how good a team is than records? There are no clear, coherent arguments in this thread anymore and it's not just in this thread, it's becoming widespread. Stop contributing to the problem.

[Dzone]

Oh how cute, you are playing the "not a real Broncos fan" card. Fan police FTW!
lmao! No, I did not say that. The vast majority of Broncos fans have a negative view of Mcdaniels when he was Broncos coach.
Could you please explain why you feel it necessary to defend Josh Mcdaniels?

[Day1BroncoFan]

And we have another fan policeman on the scene! Am I under arrest? :lol:

Just under par.

[BroncoWave]

Could you please explain why you feel it necessary to defend Josh Mcdaniels?

Because I can?

[BroncoWave]

I don't even know what argument you're even trying to have here. Is it over the structure of the playoffs? That the automatic qualifier division spot is unfair? That playoff entry is a better indication of how good a team is than records? There are no clear, coherent arguments in this thread anymore and it's not just in this thread, it's becoming widespread. Stop contributing to the problem.

I'm just trying to get at why TX is diminishing the accomplishment of that 11-5 Pats team having the record they did. Just because they missed they playoffs doesn't mean their 11-5 season is any less impressive than the 99% of teams who have gone 11-5 and made the playoffs.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Because I can?

To stir the pot?

[jhns]

And we have another fan policeman on the scene! Am I under arrest? :lol:

Whoa! I just meant you are a bad fan. Lets not turn this into some gay handcuff fantasy.

[BroncoWave]

Whoa! I just meant you are a bad fan. Lets not turn this into some gay handcuff fantasy.

:lol: I'm really going to lose sleep tonight because jhns thinks I'm a bad fan! :lol:

[jhns]

I'm really going to lose sleep tonight because jhns thinks I'm a bad fan!

Good to hear.

I'll be losing sleep for the same reason most real fans are. The game will be on past my bed time.

[Day1BroncoFan]

In case anyone lost any sleep recently, I found some... zzz

[BroncoWave]

There is literally nothing funnier on a message board then someone who is trying to proclaim who is a "real fan". Thank you for giving me a big laugh today!

[Day1BroncoFan]

This thread is tired and should be retired.

[GEM]

So if I were to say "I think that GEM is a real bitch", that's not a personal attack?

Calling someone arrogant and calling someone a bitch is quite different.

[TXBRONC]

It's a valid question. It doesn't make me a pompous know-it-all whatsoever. I'm simply challenging your point. It's an easy yes or no question.

The year the Pats went 11-5, they had one of the 12 best records in the NFL. They just had the misfortune of being in the wrong conference at the wrong time. That doesn't mean they weren't a really good team that year.

No it's still not relavent question and yes you still come across as pompous know-it-all. They weren't good enough to make the playoffs that is matter of history that is indisputable. The wrong conference, wrong time arguement is a weak argument and it's still irrelavent.





I've got nothing else to say

[dogfish]

lmao. . . looks like those mean ol' instigators are going after innocent little BTB again. . .

:rolleyes: :lol:


he's not the boy who cried wolf at all. . .

[powderaddict]

It sounds like Welker is glad to be somewhere he can be free to be himself.

I cant wait to see him line up in Orange & Blue tonight :salute:

[TXBRONC]

It sounds like Welker is glad to be somewhere he can be free to be himself.

I cant wait to see him line up in Orange & Blue tonight :salute:

Absolutely.

[Northman]

You didn't answer my question. Were the 7-9 Seahawks a better team than the 11-5 Pats? It's a pretty simple yes or no.

Record wise? No. But without seeing them play each other it would be difficult to answer that. Wasnt that the Seahawk team that beat the Saints that year?

[Dzone]

So if I were to say "I think that GEM is a real bitch", that's not a personal attack?

Please, tell me you didnt just say that.smh

[Northman]

You could have easily rebuked "McDaniels is a solid Xs and Os coach, but as a leader of men and as a motivator he is awful" and that would have been entirely legitimate as most hold that opinion as fact. When you engage in discussions of "well McDaniels knows more than you" "NUH-UH!" "YA-HUH!" with the "YA-HUH" you really served no actual purpose in a discussion. You're just posting for the sake of posting.



Nailed it.

I know MO has defended McD's time in Denver but at least when he is making his argument he is pointing to inexperience, etc. What UA said here is exactly how the last 6 or so pages has been about and why the Mike brought up how you state your (BTB) case on here.

[Northman]

lmao. . . looks like those mean ol' instigators are going after innocent little BTB again. . .

:rolleyes: :lol:


he's not the boy who cried wolf at all. . .


Wolfpack 4 Life.

[MOtorboat]

Nailed it.

I know MO has defended McD's time in Denver but at least when he is making his argument he is pointing to inexperience, etc. What UA said here is exactly how the last 6 or so pages has been about and why the Mike brought up how you state your (BTB) case on here.

I basically just like that Cutler is gone. ;)

[jhns]

There is literally nothing funnier on a message board then someone who is trying to proclaim who is a "real fan". Thank you for giving me a big laugh today!

You all heard it here first. I'm the funniest poster on these boards.

I didn't make that proclamation though. You are the one who said you aren't a real fan. What exactly do you think it says when you continually defend the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise? If I defend the Nazi way, I'm not exactly showing love for the Jewish community. Yes, McDaniels is a Nazi and the Broncos are Jews in this example. Jist wanted to make sure that was clear.

[Northman]

I basically just like that Cutler is gone. ;)


Lol dik

[powderaddict]

Wes Welker sure sounds happy to be a Bronco.

[Poet]

Lol dik

Hey, Tebow did what Manning and Cutler couldn't do for the Broncos.

:D

[Northman]

Hey, Tebow did what Manning and Cutler couldn't do for the Broncos.

:D


What? Stay on the bench? :)

[chazoe60]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

The cameraman made both of them.

[Poet]

What? Stay on the bench? :)

Get that W in the playoffs. Or, get to the playoffs, in Cutler's place.

Unfortunately, Tebow has a better legacy as a Bronco than Jay Cutler. I enjoy that the most.

[Northman]

Get that W in the playoffs. Or, get to the playoffs, in Cutler's place.

Unfortunately, Tebow has a better legacy as a Bronco than Jay Cutler. I enjoy that the most.


I dont. Well, i cant say i didnt enjoy Tebow's win and miracle season. That would be a lie. But, I would of loved to see what Jay could do with Elway and Fox here. I think it would of been better for him and fun to watch. I was really excited about that offense before McDoobie tore it too pieces.

[Poet]

I dont. Well, i cant say i didnt enjoy Tebow's win and miracle season. That would be a lie. But, I would of loved to see what Jay could do with Elway and Fox here. I think it would of been better for him and fun to watch. I was really excited about that offense before McDoobie tore it too pieces.

Tebones pwns.

[slim]

It is funny that he is the last Bronco QB to win a playoff game.

[tubby]

PFM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CoK6

[Poet]

New Bronco Curse - The curse of Tim Tebow. No more playoff wins for a decade.

[tubby]

Tebow>CoK6

[Poet]

Tebow>CoK6

Well of course. Cutler can't even make the playoffs. Tebow has a playoff win. No sane person could ever take Cutler over Tebow.

[tubby]

New Bronco Curse - The curse of Tim Tebow. No more playoff wins for a decade.

Let's not get carried away. When was the last time the Bengals won a playoff game? Just curious. The Chiefs last playoff win was in 1993. Yeah 20 years!

[Poet]

Let's not get carried away. When was the last time the Bengals won a playoff game? Just curious. The Chiefs last playoff win was in 1993. Yeah 20 years!

We're still suffering from the curse of Bo Jackson. I think it's 23 years now.

Timmy Tebones invokes the wrath of the lord upon your franchise.

[tubby]

We're still suffering from the curse of Bo Jackson. I think it's 23 years now.

Timmy Tebones invokes the wrath of the lord upon your franchise.

Oh shit. Uh, my bad bud. Sorry for bringing that up. 23 years!? Cripes! :lol:

[Poet]

Oh shit. Uh, my bad bud. Sorry for bringing that up. 23 years!? Cripes! :lol:

I'm 25.

Put that in perspective. I was barely alive the last time we got it done in the playoffs. Then there was like a 17 year playoff drought.

[TXBRONC]

Hey, Tebow did what Manning and Cutler couldn't do for the Broncos.

:D

Do you mean getting blown out in the divisional round of the playoffs because that would be true? :D

[Poet]

Do you mean getting blown out in the divisional round of the playoffs because that would be true? :D

This is unfair. If Cutler was in there it wouldn't have been put on his feet. Mainly because he woulda been out of the game by the second quarter.

[BroncoWave]

Calling someone arrogant and calling someone a bitch is quite different.

Who are you to determine that? They are both negative terms about someone's personality.

[BroncoWave]

I've got nothing else to say

Neither would I if my argument were as horrible as yours.

[Poet]

Who are you to determine that? They are both negative terms about someone's personality.

Well, some insults are worse than others. If you call me fat, I don't care. If you call me a liar, I'm going to care.

[MOtorboat]

Well, some insults are worse than others. If you call me fat, I don't care. If you call me a liar, I'm going to care.

Liar.

[Poet]

Liar.

That hurts my feelings.

[BroncoWave]

Well, some insults are worse than others. If you call me fat, I don't care. If you call me a liar, I'm going to care.

Ok, so where do we draw the line? Seems like that line could move quite a bit based on who is delivering the attack and who is receiving it.

And I was just using "bitch" as an example. My point was to ask if it's ok to personally attack someone as long as we word it the way GEM worded it when she said it was ok.

[Poet]

Ok, so where do we draw the line? Seems like that line could move quite a bit based on who is delivering the attack and who is receiving it.

And I was just using "bitch" as an example. My point was to ask if it's ok to personally attack someone as long as we word it the way GEM worded it when she said it was ok.

Dreadnought often used the context of the relationship as a measuring stick. Chazoe and I call each other horrible things and no one bats an eye. But if someone new comes on here and I spoke that way to him, I'd be in trouble.

I understand your point.

[BroncoWave]

Basically it seems like GEM is saying it's ok to insult someone as long as you word it the right way. That seems to be the beginning of a very slippery slope.

[Northman]

well of course. Cutler can't even make the playoffs. Tebow has a playoff win. No sane person could ever take cutler over tebow.

:d:d:d:d

[Poet]

:d:d:d:d

Man, sometimes I love being me.

[Northman]

Man, sometimes I love being me.

It will pass.

[Poet]

It will pass.

The feeling, or the bowel movement?

Both?

[Northman]

The feeling, or the bowel movement?

Both?

In your case probably both. What did you eat today?

[Poet]

In your case probably both. What did you eat today?

Hamburger helper and some cereal.

[Northman]

Hamburger helper and some cereal.

Yep, its going to be nasty.

[Poet]

Yep, its going to be nasty.

Actually, it wasn't that bad.

Surprised me.

[TXBRONC]

Well this conversation has really gone down the crapper literally.

[Mike]

Basically it seems like GEM is saying it's ok to insult someone as long as you word it the right way. That seems to be the beginning of a very slippery slope.

Context is everything.

[GEM]

Honestly Bailey, you admitted you enjoy the game you play. Stir the shit, incite a strong negative reaction and then report everyone who reacts negatively towards you. And frankly, most mods are tired of being used as a pawn in your game. So either put your big boy pants on or quit inciting shit you can't handle.

[EMB6903]

Basically it seems like GEM is saying it's ok to insult someone as long as you word it the right way. That seems to be the beginning of a very slippery slope.


It's an online forum... Who cares?

That being said belichick is one of the greatest coaches ever.

If I had a choice to play for fox or the hoodie?

It's fox without a doubt. He's one of the most respectable "persons" in the entire league.

John fox does things the right way. I'm very happy he landed in Denver

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Give the devil his due. Belicheat gets results. He didn't in Cleveland and that's why his act didn't last long. But pride comes before the fall and I think Bill's is coming this year or next.


Go back and look at how much BB really "failed" in Cleveland. He had amassed talent and a coaching staff rivaled by few. They were 11-5 in 1994. Browns were touted as a SB favorite...then Modell dropped the bombshell. The team fell apart and BB was let go. That team doesn't get sabotaged and the Browns may have had a few rings afterall...

[EMB6903]

Go back and look at how much BB really "failed" in Cleveland. He had amassed talent and a coaching staff rivaled by few. They were 11-5 in 1994. Browns were touted as a SB favorite...then Modell dropped the bombshell. The team fell apart and BB was let go. That team doesn't get sabotaged and the Browns may have had a few rings afterall...

With what quarterback?

With all respect to BB. What has he ever done without Tom Brady?

He is a great coach who was lucky enough to have an elite qb for most of his stint at New England.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

With what quarterback?

With all respect to BB. What has he ever done without Tom Brady?

He is a great coach who was lucky enough to have an elite qb for most of his stint at New England.

Who cares who the Browns had? Point is, he had them CLEARLY in the right direction. 11-5 in 1994. 3-1 in 1995...and then Modell announces the team is moving.

And as for Brady...how does BB not get any credit in the SB vs the Rams when Brady was about average. The D and scheme shut down St. Louis. Brady did just enough to get into FG range.

[Simple Jaded]

Bowlen was the bigger idiot for giving a guy who was too young and too inexperienced complete control over his billion dollar franchise.

Too young, too inexperienced, too dysfunctional, too short, too faggoty.

[Poet]

I think people need to reevaluate Tom Brady during the first part of his career.

[MOtorboat]

Neither would I if my argument were as horrible as yours.

Just out of curiosity.

Do you EVER think about your own posting habits before criticizing others? EVER?

Serious question.

[EMB6903]

I think people need to reevaluate Tom Brady during the first part of his career.

Whatchumean?

[Poet]

Whatchumean?

His first Sb he was just a game manager. TD, no picks, 150 yards, didn't really do much and wasn't asked to do much. Second and third Sb he was a very fine player, but not really a great QB. Not in the sense that Manning was. The Patriots were a defensive team. That third SB they were a run first offense. They traded for Corey Dillon. Worked out great for both of them.

It's really hard to take that truth and try to argue that Brady made BB. The evidence really kind of shows that BB was the one who helped Brady more than Brady helping BB. No matter how many coordinators came and went, the Patriots were always the best coached team in football. In BB's team Brady was allowed to develop as a very slow but steady pace. He wasn't asked to carry an offense, or a team much later than a lot of guys.

[Northman]

His first Sb he was just a game manager. TD, no picks, 150 yards, didn't really do much and wasn't asked to do much. Second and third Sb he was a very fine player, but not really a great QB. Not in the sense that Manning was. The Patriots were a defensive team. That third SB they were a run first offense. They traded for Corey Dillon. Worked out great for both of them.

It's really hard to take that truth and try to argue that Brady made BB. The evidence really kind of shows that BB was the one who helped Brady more than Brady helping BB. No matter how many coordinators came and went, the Patriots were always the best coached team in football. In BB's team Brady was allowed to develop as a very slow but steady pace. He wasn't asked to carry an offense, or a team much later than a lot of guys.

Well, come on King, he was what? In his 2nd year? Even Big Ben's first SB was a bit of a game manager. Cant slight players for inexperience.

[Poet]

Well, come on King, he was what? In his 2nd year? Even Big Ben's first SB was a bit of a game manager. Cant slight players for inexperience.

North, thank you. That's my point. So how on earth did Brady make BB, when BB put him in a position to win a SB as a game manager?

That's the point. It was a progression for Brady; BB put him in a position to slowly be thrust in the position where Brady has to win games. Not the other way around. QB and HC combos like that make HoFers.

Brady got rings. Brady became one of the best passers the league's ever seen. Brady didn't get a ring as one of the best passers the league's ever seen. Brady did not make BB. That's my point.

And it's pretty much irrefutable.

[Northman]

North, thank you. That's my point. So how on earth did Brady make BB, when BB put him in a position to win a SB as a game manager?

That's the point. It was a progression for Brady; BB put him in a position to slowly be thrust in the position where Brady has to win games. Not the other way around. QB and HC combos like that make HoFers.

Brady got rings. Brady became one of the best passers the league's ever seen. Brady didn't get a ring as one of the best passers the league's ever seen. Brady did not make BB. That's my point.

And it's pretty much irrefutable.


The way i look at is this,

BB is no slouch. He's a great coach regardless of his demeanor, ego, etc. But BB didnt make Brady, and Brady didnt make BB. It was the perfect chemistry of a unknown QB who stepped up to become a superstar and a coach who had the right philosophy and drive to win championships. Both Brady and BB have seen the great side of being a champion and the downside of losing a championship. They've done great things together much like how Elway and Shanahan did great things together.

You dont have the success that Brady and BB have had and call it average. It just doesnt work that way. Obviously, im coming into this conversation late but to call either Brady or BB average or pretend that one made the other is silly. Great players step up when they need too and define themselves, and it takes a great coach to have the right drive and philosophy to make it all come together when they need it too.

[Bosco]

BB made Brady, not the other way around.

I'm surprised anyone could think any different. It's like people forget that for the first two of their three SB wins, Brady was just a caretaker quarterback who rode the #6 and #1 ranked scoring defenses to victory, though admittedly making some very clutch plays along the way. It wasn't until 2004 when McDaniels became the QB coach and Weis opened up the passing game that Brady really took that leap to the elite quarterback level.

Ironically enough, in both SB appearances the Pats made as an offensive juggernaut with a suspect defense, they lost.

[Bosco]

The way i look at is this,

BB is no slouch. He's a great coach regardless of his demeanor, ego, etc. But BB didnt make Brady, and Brady didnt make BB. It was the perfect chemistry of a unknown QB who stepped up to become a superstar and a coach who had the right philosophy and drive to win championships. Both Brady and BB have seen the great side of being a champion and the downside of losing a championship. They've done great things together much like how Elway and Shanahan did great things together.

You dont have the success that Brady and BB have had and call it average. It just doesnt work that way. Obviously, im coming into this conversation late but to call either Brady or BB average or pretend that one made the other is silly. Great players step up when they need too and define themselves, and it takes a great coach to have the right drive and philosophy to make it all come together when they need it too.

I'd agree with this. I think that elite players like your Brady, Elway, Manning, Montana types have those traits from the start. It's up to the coaches to help them harness and develop those traits to the next level and creating an environment that can consistently win games. Team effort in the truest sense of the word.

[Mr Bojangles]

His first Sb he was just a game manager. TD, no picks, 150 yards, didn't really do much and wasn't asked to do much. Second and third Sb he was a very fine player, but not really a great QB. Not in the sense that Manning was. The Patriots were a defensive team. That third SB they were a run first offense. They traded for Corey Dillon. Worked out great for both of them.

It's really hard to take that truth and try to argue that Brady made BB. The evidence really kind of shows that BB was the one who helped Brady more than Brady helping BB. No matter how many coordinators came and went, the Patriots were always the best coached team in football. In BB's team Brady was allowed to develop as a very slow but steady pace. He wasn't asked to carry an offense, or a team much later than a lot of guys.

I tried to respond to an earlier comment of yours regarding this same topic, but it was lost in cyberspace. But, lazy as I am, I have to try again to point out a few flaws in your reasoning about Brady, Patriots D during those years and Corey Dillon's contributions to those titles.

First of all, it's easy to say Brady was "just a game manager" based on his stats in the first of their SB victories, but that is ignoring his incredible contribution, as a rookie no less, to that win. He was truly MVP that day, all else aside, because of that incredible game winning drive. John Madden, and everyone else in the entire football world except Bill Belichick, fully expected the Pats to take a knee with 1:16 remaining in regulation, and a rookie at the helm. Let's give credit to Brady for that drive, marching them into FG position, while ensuring no time left on the clock. I've endured countless numbnuts on Colts forums trying to insist that AV was the MVP that day because he kicked the winning score. Tommyrot. That's what he gets paid to do, but he can't do it from his own 30! The other inane argument is that Brady is diminished in that effort because he didn't lead them all the way down to field to a TD, as Peyton or Montana would...as it that is the true measure. Well, NE didn't need a TD, so we'll never know if he was up to the task. But what we do know is that kid drove his team and put Vinny in position to win the game.

Pats D. Brady bashers and Manning rump swabs love to claim it was the Pats defense that won those titles, not Tom Brady. True, those were decent defensive units, but they were definitely overachievers who bought into Bill's "Just do your job" philosophy and worked hard. I can't think of a single player, other than Brady, who is a shoe-in for the Hall. That's not to say Brady took those teams on his back the same way he has with the more recent versions, but he certainly wasn't just along for the ride as the Defense overpowered the opposition, as manning boosters would love to believe.

Corey Dillon. This one, I really get a charge out of! Dillon played 3 seasons for NE, 2004-2006, but his only great season with them was 2004 when he rushed for 1600+ yards... other than that, he a run-of-the-mill contributor,. with 500-600 yards for the season. Against Philly in the SB, he rushed for 75 yards. And to say that NE was a rush-first offense in any of his years is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

My take is that BB and Brady compliment each other very well, and that neither should be singled out as the reason for the success of the other. Both are more than worthy of consideration as the GOAT at what they do.

[Ravage!!!]

North, thank you. That's my point. So how on earth did Brady make BB, when BB put him in a position to win a SB as a game manager?

That's the point. It was a progression for Brady; BB put him in a position to slowly be thrust in the position where Brady has to win games. Not the other way around. QB and HC combos like that make HoFers.

Brady got rings. Brady became one of the best passers the league's ever seen. Brady didn't get a ring as one of the best passers the league's ever seen. Brady did not make BB. That's my point.

And it's pretty much irrefutable.

Really? I absolutely LOVE it when someone posts their opinion and says its "irrefutable." :lol: It's SOOOO pompous that it makes me want to scream!!

King. How many Super Bowls did Cowher win before he "game manager" Rothlesburger? None. Zero. Yet you want to use North's point about Roth being a "game manager" as your proof that it was more about coaching than the QB. That doesn't hold water. Cowher had a lot of talented QBs over the years of his LONG tenure in Pitt, yet couldn't win UNTIL he got the QB.

Now lets be clear. I think that it takes a QB AND a coach to win the Super Bowl. Elway and Young couldn't win one without Shanahan, as an example. But you can't tell me that BB made Brady more than Brady made BB. We've seen time and time again where "ok" coaches can be made out to be SUPER Coaches by having a great QB. Jimmy Johnson didn't do very well after leaving Dallas. Noll completely fell off the earth without Bradshaw. Belicheck was BAD (as an HC) without Brady. We've seen Brady make a lot of OC's look really really good. We've seen Manning take very mediocre coaches to great records, and two very average coaches to the Super Bowl.

[Ravage!!!]

The way i look at is this,

BB is no slouch. He's a great coach regardless of his demeanor, ego, etc. But BB didnt make Brady, and Brady didnt make BB. It was the perfect chemistry of a unknown QB who stepped up to become a superstar and a coach who had the right philosophy and drive to win championships. Both Brady and BB have seen the great side of being a champion and the downside of losing a championship. They've done great things together much like how Elway and Shanahan did great things together.

You dont have the success that Brady and BB have had and call it average. It just doesnt work that way. Obviously, im coming into this conversation late but to call either Brady or BB average or pretend that one made the other is silly. Great players step up when they need too and define themselves, and it takes a great coach to have the right drive and philosophy to make it all come together when they need it too.

All great points... but let me ask you this question, for this is what I have asked myself.

What stands the better chance of happening if the two were ever separated.... Brady and an average coach going to the SUper Bowl, or Belicheck and an average QB going to the Super Bowl?

[Ravage!!!]

I'm shocked to see Bosco come rumbling in on a thread that bashed McDaniels!! :shocked:

[powderaddict]

I'll take a mediocre HC with a HOF QB over a mediocre QB and a HOF HC.

[Northman]

All great points... but let me ask you this question, for this is what I have asked myself.

What stands the better chance of happening if the two were ever separated.... Brady and an average coach going to the SUper Bowl, or Belicheck and an average QB going to the Super Bowl?


Hard to say in this particular case. We did see what BB did with Cassell and considering that guy sat a long time before being thrust into the starting position ending up 11-5 is pretty good. We dont know how that would of played out if Brady couldnt come back. Thats not too say that Cassell is a great QB, especially since we saw how he did in KC but with the right coaching and philosophy he may have excelled in NE. But he took the money and no one can blame him.

Now, there will be those who think that Brady falls under the same category to which i will whole heartily disagree. To answer your question, i think it leans more on Brady than it does BB. Do i think BB could take a team with a QB like say Colt McCoy to the SB? Nah.

We've talked about this before you and i about how over the years there has been one common denominator in most of the SB's played and that is they have a Elite to HOF QB on those teams. There are a small handful that have had guys who could do what was necessary but even looking back at the Bucs and Ravens in the early 2000's both QB's that played on both teams in both games were average to good QB's. None of them are/were considered elite and none of them are HOF worthy. If you (hypothetically) swap out Gannon with Joe Montana do we really think the Bucs win or win as handidly as they did? Their defense was good but it wasnt like Gannon was the type of calibur QB that could put pressure on them like a Montana, Marino, Manning, or Elway could.

I just think for a coach to rebuild a team and take a 2nd team to the SB is much much harder than it would be for a elite QB to do it with a subpar coach. Warner made it under a subpar coach, Manning made it under a subpar coach, but to my knowledge we have not seen a HC take a new team to the SB. I could be wrong but i dont recall one doing it yet.

[Ravage!!!]

Hard to say in this particular case. We did see what BB did with Cassell and considering that guy sat a long time before being thrust into the starting position ending up 11-5 is pretty good. We dont know how that would of played out if Brady couldnt come back. Thats not too say that Cassell is a great QB, especially since we saw how he did in KC but with the right coaching and philosophy he may have excelled in NE. But he took the money and no one can blame him.

Now, there will be those who think that Brady falls under the same category to which i will whole heartily disagree. To answer your question, i think it leans more on Brady than it does BB. Do i think BB could take a team with a QB like say Colt McCoy to the SB? Nah.

We've talked about this before you and i about how over the years there has been one common denominator in most of the SB's played and that is they have a Elite to HOF QB on those teams. There are a small handful that have had guys who could do what was necessary but even looking back at the Bucs and Ravens in the early 2000's both QB's that played on both teams in both games were average to good QB's. None of them are/were considered elite and none of them are HOF worthy. If you (hypothetically) swap out Gannon with Joe Montana do we really think the Bucs win or win as handidly as they did? Their defense was good but it wasnt like Gannon was the type of calibur QB that could put pressure on them like a Montana, Marino, Manning, or Elway could.

I just think for a coach to rebuild a team and take a 2nd team to the SB is much much harder than it would be for a elite QB to do it with a subpar coach. Warner made it under a subpar coach, Manning made it under a subpar coach, but to my knowledge we have not seen a HC take a new team to the SB. I could be wrong but i dont recall one doing it yet.

Well, Cassel was also leading a team that went 18-1 the season prior. Not exactly a bad situation for a bad QB.

As far as a coach taking a new team to the Super Bowl...didn't Fox do it in Carolina? Chucky took the Bucs to the Super Bowl the first year he was the HC in Tampa.

[Northman]

Well, Cassel was also leading a team that went 18-1 the season prior. Not exactly a bad situation for a bad QB.

As far as a coach taking a new team to the Super Bowl...didn't Fox do it in Carolina? Chucky took the Bucs to the Super Bowl the first year he was the HC in Tampa.

Yea, but im mainly talking about a coach who took one team to a SB, and then took a different team. I dont think that has happened yet. If Fox does it, he would be the first i think to take both the Panthers and the Broncos to SB's.

[BroncoJoe]

Yea, but im mainly talking about a coach who took one team to a SB, and then took a different team. I dont think that has happened yet. If Fox does it, he would be the first i think to take both the Panthers and the Broncos to SB's.

Reeves.

[BroncoJoe]

Shula too, I believe. Colts and Dolphins, right?

[UnderArmour]

Shula too, I believe. Colts and Dolphins, right?

Also Bill Parcells and Mike Holmgren. It's really not uncommon for a good coach to go elsewhere and have success as front office mistakes are typically what cost them their job in the first place, not poor coaching.

[Northman]

Reeves.

I stand corrected. i forgot about Reeves. Good call.

[Northman]

Also Bill Parcells and Mike Holmgren. It's really not uncommon for a good coach to go elsewhere and have success as front office mistakes are typically what cost them their job in the first place, not poor coaching.

Maybe i was thinking in terms of taking another team and winning a SB? I might have confused that. Holmgren lost, Reeves lost (but lost his others anyway). Not sure about SHula, i never knew he coached the Colts.

[BroncoJoe]

Maybe i was thinking in terms of taking another team and winning a SB? I might have confused that. Holmgren lost, Reeves lost (but lost his others anyway). Not sure about SHula, i never knew he coached the Colts.

1963 - 1969.

[Ravage!!!]

I think he lost the SUper Bowl with the Colts... and caused the controversy of not playing Unitas sooner in the game.

North, you might be right. I don't know if a coach has WON a Super Bowl with two different teams while being the HC for both teams.

[Ravage!!!]

Vermeil. He took both Philly and the Rams to the Super Bowl. Losing in Philly and winning in St. Louis.

[BroncoWave]

No coach has ever won a SB with multiple teams. Of current guys, it seems like Shanny would have the best shot since he has a playoff caliber team right now.

[Poet]

Really? I absolutely LOVE it when someone posts their opinion and says its "irrefutable." :lol: It's SOOOO pompous that it makes me want to scream!!

King. How many Super Bowls did Cowher win before he "game manager" Rothlesburger? None. Zero. Yet you want to use North's point about Roth being a "game manager" as your proof that it was more about coaching than the QB. That doesn't hold water. Cowher had a lot of talented QBs over the years of his LONG tenure in Pitt, yet couldn't win UNTIL he got the QB.

Now lets be clear. I think that it takes a QB AND a coach to win the Super Bowl. Elway and Young couldn't win one without Shanahan, as an example. But you can't tell me that BB made Brady more than Brady made BB. We've seen time and time again where "ok" coaches can be made out to be SUPER Coaches by having a great QB. Jimmy Johnson didn't do very well after leaving Dallas. Noll completely fell off the earth without Bradshaw. Belicheck was BAD (as an HC) without Brady. We've seen Brady make a lot of OC's look really really good. We've seen Manning take very mediocre coaches to great records, and two very average coaches to the Super Bowl.


Well to be fair, he had another game manager in a SB, that one just really, really sucked in that game. Cowher also won a SB with Big Ben putting up one of the worst performances of all-time, and the worst performance of all time for a winning QB. So his team was so good that a QB could play a game that bad, and they still won. Another example of a great team compensating for a struggling Qb would be an early Joe Flacco. That's sort of a sidebar conversation though. My apologies for rambling.

The point isn't being understood.

When Tom Brady was winning SB's, he was a fine QB. Not a great one. He wasn't a great passer in terms of putting up huge numbers, he wasn't asked to throw the ball like Peyton Manning was, for instance. Did he have a burden of responsibility? Yeah, he did because he's a starting QB, but who was asked to do more? Look at his second year. 603 attempts is a lot of passing, but the system was a dink and dunk one 600 attempts for 3.7k yards screams "safe offense." It's not diminishing what he's done as a player. No other QB with three or four rings has the numbers that Brady has. It's just that later on in his career is when he really took off. After the rings. That's when the coached, who put him in a great system that didn't ask him to carry the team, went out and got the weapons to be a pass first record breaking team.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

That is a mighty fine career right there. Some people think it's the best career a QB has ever had. Still skeptical? Look at the attempts. Go back and look at the system he was playing in. His coach put him in an incredibly structured environment in an offense that was very safe. He wasn't asked to go out and win a bunch of games on his back. He wasn't asked to compensate for other players.

BB was coaching a team that didn't really commit penalties, didn't make mistakes, got a turn of turnovers and ran an efficient offense. This entire conversation pretty much proves my point about Tom Brady. People want to act like he was winning SB's and putting up huge numbers. He was certainly a good passing, there's no doubt. IIRC, in his second and third SB season he led the league in passing yards once, and then TD's in another.

Ravage, an average coach isn't going to -probably- discover Tom Brady. BB won a SB when Tom Brady was average. There's your answer.

[powderaddict]

Brady wasn't consistently great as a rookie, but he still was good when needed.

Let's not act like he was some avg QB that lucked his way onto a stacked team (see: Dilfer, Trent; Johnson, Brad). He still made plays and pressured defenses. Not to the extent he did later, but he was still pretty darn good.

I don't think the Pats win that first Superbowl with Bledsoe.

[Poet]

Well a defensive orientated team that completely embarrassed one of the best offenses ever won a Sb with a QB that put up pedestrian numbers. The patriots also had one of the best defenses in the league that year. That's sort of a known formula for winning SB's, so yeah, his first year, he really was average.

[broncohead]

I watched the breakdown of that SB and NE took it to Faulk and the WRs. They didn't let Faulk run a route without getting hit and the same with the WRs. Faulk was held a few times as well but during that time pass interference was more lenient. It was a good game plan by NE defense

[MOtorboat]

I watched the breakdown of that SB and NE took it to Faulk and the WRs. They didn't let Faulk run a route without getting hit and the same with the WRs. Faulk was held a few times as well but during that time pass interference was more lenient. It was a good game plan by NE defense

New England's defenses got light years worse when they started changing the rules and allowing less contact downfield.

[WTE]

You guys still having this boring Patriots debate? I thought this thread was about Wes' concern with Belichick yelling at him in front of everyone.

While also yelling at everyone else in front of everyone else.

[MOtorboat]

You guys still having this boring Patriots debate? I thought this thread was about Wes' concern with Belichick yelling at him in front of everyone.

While also yelling at everyone else in front of everyone else.

You and the son gonna get all lit up for tonight's game? Not often you get a Friday nighter.

[WTE]

You and the son gonna get all lit up for tonight's game? Not often you get a Friday nighter.

No, I'm the only football fan in the family and he's very tired from working his ass off all week. Unlike you who sat on his ass all day watching the PGA.

[MOtorboat]

No, I'm the only football fan in the family and he's very tired from working his ass off all week. Unlike you who sat on his ass all day watching the PGA.

I worked well over 40 hours this week, which is why I could do so on Friday afternoon, and I'm working tomorrow, TYVM, jackass.

I also noticed this is not in the Smack Forum. How is this thread not in the Smack Forum?

[TXBRONC]

I'm shocked to see Bosco come rumbling in on a thread that bashed McDaniels!! :shocked:


Mind boggling isn't it? :nod:

[Bosco]

Hard to say in this particular case. We did see what BB did with Cassell and considering that guy sat a long time before being thrust into the starting position ending up 11-5 is pretty good. We dont know how that would of played out if Brady couldnt come back. Thats not too say that Cassell is a great QB, especially since we saw how he did in KC but with the right coaching and philosophy he may have excelled in NE. But he took the money and no one can blame him.

That's an excellent point that should be discussed more. I'm definitely a fan of Tom Brady and think he is arguably the greatest quarterback to play modern football, but at the same time he's played in exactly two offenses in his entire career (both of which used the same base terminology) and dealt with very little adversity. On the other hand, you had a guy like Manning who spent an entire year out of football with an injury that directly impaired his ability to throw the ball and which was so severe many thought he'd never play again. All he did was change teams, come into a system he'd never played before and put up the second best statistical season of his career while leading his team to a 13-3 record.

Could Brady do that? I'm not so sure.

To be certain, while Brady is an elite quarterback, that system they have in New England is finely tuned. Belichick and McDaniels took a guy who hadn't started a football game since high school and had him turn in a borderline Pro Bowl performance. That's a very impressive feat and a reason why the Patriots are always competitive.

[Jsteve01]

That's an excellent point that should be discussed more. I'm definitely a fan of Tom Brady and think he is arguably the greatest quarterback to play modern football, but at the same time he's played in exactly two offenses in his entire career (both of which used the same base terminology) and dealt with very little adversity. On the other hand, you had a guy like Manning who spent an entire year out of football with an injury that directly impaired his ability to throw the ball and which was so severe many thought he'd never play again. All he did was change teams, come into a system he'd never played before and put up the second best statistical season of his career while leading his team to a 13-3 record.

Could Brady do that? I'm not so sure.

To be certain, while Brady is an elite quarterback, that system they have in New England is finely tuned. Belichick and McDaniels took a guy who hadn't started a football game since high school and had him turn in a borderline Pro Bowl performance. That's a very impressive feat and a reason why the Patriots are always competitive.

I've often said the player whose ability supersedes the talent around him and the system he plays in is extremely rare. Especially in the game of football. So many of the busts at qb in recent years busted because they were forced to play too early, behind porous offensive lines, and without the talent around them to aid in their success. Brady is a great qb, but Peyton's performance last year solidified him as the better of the two for my money.

[NEPatriots]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Dq2UkRdjU

[Simple Jaded]

Ya ever know a person so insanely stupid that when you actually somewhat agree with that person it rattles your entire belief system to its very core? For me there is Dmac and Skip Baseless.

[EMB6903]

Brady wasn't consistently great as a rookie, but he still was good when needed.

Let's not act like he was some avg QB that lucked his way onto a stacked team (see: Dilfer, Trent; Johnson, Brad). He still made plays and pressured defenses. Not to the extent he did later, but he was still pretty darn good.

I don't think the Pats win that first Superbowl with Bledsoe.

Brady didn't play as a rookie.

No rookie QB has ever won a Super Bowl. To have mr bojangles even salute that post shows how much he really does know.

[Mr Bojangles]

Brady didn't play as a rookie.

No rookie QB has ever won a Super Bowl. To have mr bojangles even salute that post shows how much he really does know.

I saluted the comment for its opinion on winning the SB with Bledsoe, Albert.

[Simple Jaded]

The Patriots never make it to that first SB without Bledsoe.

[Mr Bojangles]

The Patriots never make it to that first SB without Bledsoe.


I assume you are referring to the AFCCG that season against the Steelers, when Brady left the game late in the second quarter with an injury. What Bledsoe did that day was no more than what you'd expect from any backup. Drew was 10-21, 102 yards.....not exactly worthy of your lofty suggestion about his invaluable contribution.

[Simple Jaded]

I assume you are referring to the AFCCG that season against the Steelers, when Brady left the game late in the second quarter with an injury. What Bledsoe did that day was no more than what you'd expect from any backup. Drew was 10-21, 102 yards.....not exactly worthy of your lofty suggestion about his invaluable contribution.


They didn't have just any backup, they had Bledsoe.

[powderaddict]

Brady didn't play as a rookie.

No rookie QB has ever won a Super Bowl. To have mr bojangles even salute that post shows how much he really does know.

Sorry, that's right, I should have put first year starting.

[Mr Bojangles]

Sorry, that's right, I should have put first year starting.

Most of us knew what you meant, PA.

[Dzone]

So according to SI, Welker had hair replacement surgery. Maybe it was Bradys plastic surgeon.
It does make you wonder how bald Welker would be without that.