Welker

[Mr Bojangles]

Haven't read much about Welker in camp, so far. Is he making any impact? Or are they playing it low-key? Saw him in some highlight shots, but saw no reports on the new Manning-Welker connection.

[MOtorboat]

Haven't read much about Welker in camp, so far. Is he making any impact? Or are they playing it low-key? Saw him in some highlight shots, but saw no reports on the new Manning-Welker connection.

Needs work on timing, but Welker is still the best slot receiver in the league and he's making play after play. Word is he's making our defense look kind of silly.

[Mr Bojangles]

Needs work on timing, but Welker is still the best slot receiver in the league and he's making play after play. Word is he's making our defense look kind of silly.

Well, unless BB knows something we all don't about his health, his mileage, etc., NE should have paid him. If for nothing else, for what he did for the organization over the past six seasons.

His recovery and quick return to the field after such a devastating knee injury was reason enough to throw a few extra bucks his way.

[MOtorboat]

Well, unless BB knows something we all don't about his health, his mileage, etc., NE should have paid him. If for nothing else, for what he did for the organization over the past six seasons.

His recovery and quick return to the field after such a devastating knee injury was reason enough to throw a few extra bucks his way.

Now that other circumstances have depleted New England's offensive skill weapons, it's easy to see they should have paid Welker. But that said, at the time it seemed like a mistake.

[Mr Bojangles]

Oh, and not to be nasty, but making the Denver secondary look foolish is not the measuring stick you want to use to evaluate Wes at this point.

[Mr Bojangles]

Now that other circumstances have depleted New England's offensive skill weapons, it's easy to see they should have paid Welker. But that said, at the time it seemed like a mistake.

I'm not saying what I said because of anything that has developed since last spring. NE will be just fine on offense, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them outdo the offense from a year ago! Seriously.

They are far from 'depleted', and I am quite certain that they are going to surprise a few people.

[MOtorboat]

Oh, and not to be nasty, but making the Denver secondary look foolish is not the measuring stick you want to use to evaluate Wes at this point.

Denver's corners stack up with the best in the league, so spare me.

I knew that comment was coming, anyway.

[slim]

So NE is loaded at offensive skill positions, but Denver's CB's are terrible.

Ok. Bye.

[Italianmobstr7]

I've seen him at camp a few times and he's been awesome.. He catches everything. He and Chris Harris have been having some awesome (and fun to watch) battles. Even on plays where he Harris has been draped all over him he was making great catches. Harris has gotten the best of him too so it hasn't been too one sided. One thing Wes is great at is he doesn't lean to which side he's cutting to. The DB has no idea where he's going until he goes. It's pretty impressive. He's like a faster version of Stokley. I think when you get to see him play a little you'll be pretty happy that he's a Bronco.

[broncohead]

Now that other circumstances have depleted New England's offensive skill weapons, it's easy to see they should have paid Welker. But that said, at the time it seemed like a mistake.

Denver has a very solid group of CBs...

[broncohead]

My bad Mo that was meant for jingles

[TXBRONC]

Oh, and not to be nasty, but making the Denver secondary look foolish is not the measuring stick you want to use to evaluate Wes at this point.

There is poster here who is attending camp said Welker has won some of the battles with Chris Harris but Harris has gotten the better of Welker on several occasions as well.

Yeah I would use Denver's secondary as measuring stick because they very good.

[Ziggy]

Welker and Harris went back and forth today. He and Manning still have some work to do on timing, but there's a reason that he's the only wide receiver in the history of the NFL to have 5 100 catch seasons. The man is a machine.

[Dapper Dan]

Harris has been a surprise overall. But I can see him consistently going against Welker in practice making himself an even better corner.

[Mr Bojangles]

So NE is loaded at offensive skill positions, but Denver's CB's are terrible.

Ok. Bye.

Ok, now that about 5 different posters have all told me how great the Denver DBs are, I think it's time for a comment Let's start tho by perusing the following link..

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1090312-nfl-power-ranking-the-top-50-active-defensive-backs/page/37 ,a list of the Top 50 (Yes, FIFTY) CBs in the League to see how many Broncos made that cut.

As to my own perspective, may I say they sure didn't look too great against Flacco in the POs last season. Moore....is he still on the roster after that disastrous brainfart in the waning moments of Denver's lone PO appearance last season?

Then we have the issue of Bailey, 13 years in the League and another year older? Now he may have been one of the best at one time, but get real! Father time will surely catch up to him and it started to show last year. It will become apparent to even the casual observer, this season, so get ready.

Quentin Jammer, great name for a DB, is serviceable.

I guess all you guys are thinking about the rookies' potential when you try to tell me how good the Denver secondary is, but I discount that sort of analysis to the season actually gets underway and we see these guys in action.

[Mr Bojangles]

Harris has been a surprise overall. But I can see him consistently going against Welker in practice making himself an even better corner.

That's one comment I can easily agree with. That's the secret to any player getting better...going against good, strong opposition in practice.

[Mr Bojangles]

Welker and Harris went back and forth today. He and Manning still have some work to do on timing, but there's a reason that he's the only wide receiver in the history of the NFL to have 5 100 catch seasons. The man is a machine.

He is all that, Ziggy, and he should compliment that corp of receivers very nicely.....Damn!

[WTE]

Take good care of our Wes. :bawling:

[BroncoJoe]

Great article (not). Especially considering it's

1. Bleacher Report
2. BY CODY SWARTZ (FEATURED COLUMNIST) ON MARCH 4, 2012

Got anything that reflects play from last year? That article is essentially two years old.

[vandammage13]

Well, unless BB knows something we all don't about his health, his mileage, etc., NE should have paid him. If for nothing else, for what he did for the organization over the past six seasons.

His recovery and quick return to the field after such a devastating knee injury was reason enough to throw a few extra bucks his way.

That's not the Patriot way though...BB has a history of parting with players who are still productive, and they never sign a guy based on sentimental value or rewarding them for past sacrifices/successes.

Seems kinda harsh, but the proof is in the pudding that it works. No other team has jettisoned more good players than the Patriots, and no team has won more over the last 12 years either....More teams should probably utilize their uber-all business model.

BB probably figures Welker can be replaced because Brady is his QB...after all, they never won a SB with the Brady-Welker connection.

That's not to say Welker isn't valuable, he's very good...but I doubt he's catching 100+ balls every year if Carson Palmer is his QB. With Manning, Welker brings highest value here, as Manning is every bit as good as Brady, if not better. He probably wouldn't be as valuable to a team like the Bills or Raiders because they don't have a QB that can consistently get him the ball in the right spots.

I guess what I'm saying is that because BB has Brady, he feels he can get similar production from another guy or by committee because of how good Brady is, and can spend his resources elsewhere.

Another interesting theory I read (which I subscribe to) is that the Pats are trying to develop young talent at WR...They have not been able to over the years because of Brady's high level of chemistry with Welker...Brady depended on him too much and it stunted the growth and development of their young players because Welker was just so highly targeted and the younger WR's never got a chance...The article pointed out that Brady just had so much confidence in Welker, that as good as Brady has been, he would often force throws underneath to a covered Welker, not progressing to his 3rd and 4th reads, often not seeing a wide open Brandon Lloyd or Chad Johnson down the field. Welker had almost become a debilitating crutch.

[underrated29]

Nfl savant? Bo, you sure do not know much a out football, let alone your own (supposedly) team. You come off as a pats can. Which makes more sense why you would claim to be a savant. Champ, Harris and Drc are amongst the best three Dbs out there. Did you ever play football my friend, it seems like you did, because you sound like a db.

[BroncoJoe]

Nfl savant? Bo, you sure do not know much a out football, let alone your own (supposedly) team. You come off as a pats can. Which makes more sense why you would claim to be a savant. Champ, Harris and Drc are amongst the best three Dbs out there. Did you ever play football my friend, it seems like you did, because you sound like a db.

More like Savant syndrome.

[Mr Bojangles]

That's not the Patriot way though...BB has a history of parting with players who are still productive, and they never sign a guy based on sentimental value or rewarding them for past sacrifices/successes.

Seems kinda harsh, but the proof is in the pudding that it works. No other team has jettisoned more good players than the Patriots, and no team has won more over the last 12 years either....More teams should probably utilize their uber-all business model.

BB probably figures Welker can be replaced because Brady is his QB...after all, they never won a SB with the Brady-Welker connection.

That's not to say Welker isn't valuable, he's very good...but I doubt he's catching 100+ balls every year if Carson Palmer is his QB. With Manning, Welker brings highest value here, as Manning is every bit as good as Brady, if not better. He probably wouldn't be as valuable to a team like the Bills or Raiders because they don't have a QB that can consistently get him the ball in the right spots.

I guess what I'm saying is that because BB has Brady, he feels he can get similar production from another guy or by committee because of how good Brady is, and can spend his resources elsewhere.

Another interesting theory I read (which I subscribe to) is that the Pats are trying to develop young talent at WR...They have not been able to over the years because of Brady's high level of chemistry with Welker...Brady depended on him too much and it stunted the growth and development of their young players because Welker was just so highly targeted and the younger WR's never got a chance...The article pointed out that Brady just had so much confidence in Welker, that as good as Brady has been, he would often force throws underneath to a covered Welker, not progressing to his 3rd and 4th reads, often not seeing a wide open Brandon Lloyd or Chad Johnson down the field. Welker had almost become a debilitating crutch.

Your analysis of BB and his mindset regarding personnel is correct, but let me elaborate a bit on it.

Bill correctly recognizes that jettisoning a Ty Law, or a Richard Seymour, doesn't mean that you have to play with ten men on the field. You get to replace them (naturally, so bear with me here), so their loss is ONLY the net sum of what you lose with Ty leaving vs what you get out of his replacement by way of production. This is considered in terms of the cap space that is saved and how that benefits the team in other areas or positions. In the truest sense of the word, it is a 'numbers game' all the way with Bill. Now this may sound simplistic and obvious, but most people seem focus on and bemoan only the loss of a star player, without factoring in the other elements and looking at it as a whole.

As to the article that you mentioned, I would say, based on my personal observations, that it is hogwash. Brady spreads the ball around as well as anyone who ever played. Wes was his go to guy, for sure in key moments where a 1st down is needed, but anyone who watched Lloyd or Johnson would understand that it wasn't about Brady's shortcomings, but rather those two's disappointing inability to pick up on the complex NE passing game.

[Mr Bojangles]

Nfl savant? Bo, you sure do not know much a out football, let alone your own (supposedly) team. You come off as a pats can. Which makes more sense why you would claim to be a savant. Champ, Harris and Drc are amongst the best three Dbs out there. Did you ever play football my friend, it seems like you did, because you sound like a db.

HaHa....And you obviously don't know much about tongue-in-cheek humor!

I am a Pats' fan, and wasn't trying to suggest anything to the contrary.

Yeah, I played football. RB, DB & STs. Returned punts & KOs and played on KO. Basically, never came off the field. But that and $2.25 will get you a cup of coffee nowadays, so I'm not relying totally on my own experience to opine.

But I still haven't heard anyone explain to me how the great Denver secondary managed to look so pedestrian on last year's POs.

Please bear in mind that what they may have 'accomplished' in the regular season that has some of their fans believing they are world-beaters was all accomplished against one of the weakest schedules in the League, playing in, arguably, the weakest division in football. These are factors that should, reasonably, lead a fan to believe that there D is actually worse than they look, not better!

This is the standard I apply to NE, which also played in a pretty weak Division. Their pass defense was bottom tier at best, and considering that they play almost 40% of their games against their weak Division rivals, this performance should be evaluated as even worse, not better. I believe this will be better this year, with the addition of Adrian Wilson and the re-signing of Talib, but then again, it couldn't have gotten any worse.



,

[BroncoJoe]

Per NFL metrics, the Broncos were #3 against the pass last year.

The playoffs? Meltdown for the team, not just the DB's (save for Rahim).

[Dapper Dan]

HaHa....And you obviously don't know much about tongue-in-cheek humor!

I am a Pats' fan, and wasn't trying to suggest anything to the contrary.

Yeah, I played football. RB, DB & STs. Returned punts & KOs and played on KO. Basically, never came off the field. But that and $2.25 will get you a cup of coffee nowadays, so I'm not relying totally on my own experience to opine.

But I still haven't heard anyone explain to me how the great Denver secondary managed to look so pedestrian on last year's POs.

Please bear in mind that what they may have 'accomplished' in the regular season that has some of their fans believing they are world-beaters was all accomplished against one of the weakest schedules in the League, playing in, arguably, the weakest division in football. These are factors that should, reasonably, lead a fan to believe that there D is actually worse than they look, not better!

This is the standard I apply to NE, which also played in a pretty weak Division. Their pass defense was bottom tier at best, and considering that they play almost 40% of their games against their weak Division rivals, this performance should be evaluated as even worse, not better. I believe this will be better this year, with the addition of Adrian Wilson and the re-signing of Talib, but then again, it couldn't have gotten any worse.



,

So Denver plays 16 season games, but the only measuring stick you can use is 1 playoff game? How is that adequate?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

HaHa....And you obviously don't know much about tongue-in-cheek humor!

I am a Pats' fan, and wasn't trying to suggest anything to the contrary.

Yeah, I played football. RB, DB & STs. Returned punts & KOs and played on KO. Basically, never came off the field. But that and $2.25 will get you a cup of coffee nowadays, so I'm not relying totally on my own experience to opine.

But I still haven't heard anyone explain to me how the great Denver secondary managed to look so pedestrian on last year's POs.

Please bear in mind that what they may have 'accomplished' in the regular season that has some of their fans believing they are world-beaters was all accomplished against one of the weakest schedules in the League, playing in, arguably, the weakest division in football. These are factors that should, reasonably, lead a fan to believe that there D is actually worse than they look, not better!

This is the standard I apply to NE, which also played in a pretty weak Division. Their pass defense was bottom tier at best, and considering that they play almost 40% of their games against their weak Division rivals, this performance should be evaluated as even worse, not better. I believe this will be better this year, with the addition of Adrian Wilson and the re-signing of Talib, but then again, it couldn't have gotten any worse.



,


I would argue that most of the good D's looked bad in the playoffs last year. I don't know if it's the extra prep time teams have or not. SF gave up a ton of points in the SB, and they are good at every level of D.

Also, Denver's D only gave up 24 points in regulation against the Ravens. The other TD was a pick six.

[Mr Bojangles]

I would argue that most of the good D's looked bad in the playoffs last year. I don't know if it's the extra prep time teams have or not. SF gave up a ton of points in the SB, and they are good at every level of D.

Also, Denver's D only gave up 24 points in regulation against the Ravens. The other TD was a pick six.

NE only gave up 28 points, and I would rate their D last season slightly above 'pitiful' and just below 'extremely aggravating'......so you see the conundrum for me with your comment?

[BroncoJoe]

NE only gave up 28 points, and I would rate their D last season slightly above 'pitiful' and just below 'extremely aggravating'......so you see the conundrum for me with your comment?

Per a comment made by you, I thought we weren't supposed to compare how teams fared against the same opponent.

[Mr Bojangles]

Per a comment made by you, I thought we weren't supposed to compare how teams fared against the same opponent.

First of all, I wasn't comparing how they fared. I was trying to point out there was a problem for me in grasping the significance of the OP's comment about points allowed, in that he was trying to make the claim that such a performance supported a POV contrary to my own.

You are correct....they are not fair comparisons, at all...hence the conundrum presented to me, by the OPs comment.

[Mr Bojangles]

BTW...wasn't this a thread about Welker?

Let's try to stay on topic.

[BroncoWave]

BTW...wasn't this a thread about Welker?

Let's try to stay on topic.

Translation: I just got owned by my misinformed ramblings about Denver's d-backs, so let's change the topic.

[chazoe60]

Can this shit be moved to smack, that was the obvious attempt of the troll who started the thread.

Jesus Pats fans, keep your smack in the right forum just like Bill keeps his video cameras in the right places, now.

[chazoe60]

BTW...wasn't this a thread about Welker?

Let's try to stay on topic.


You're the one that changed the topic dipshit.

[Ravage!!!]

You're the ine that changed the topic dipshit.

He's also the one that tried to use a 2 year old bleacher report to smack our DBs :lol:! This bojangles guy is awesome. I hope he sticks around to beat around for a while. We need a new punching bag since the raider fans don't come around often enough.

[Dzone]

BTW...wasn't this a thread about Welker?

Let's try to stay on topic.
Lmao, you gotta be joking. youre funny man

[Mr Bojangles]

Translation: I just got owned by my misinformed ramblings about Denver's d-backs, so let's change the topic.

Yeah, right.

Let's keep an eye on the season to see just who is misinformed.

[Mr Bojangles]

Can this shit be moved to smack, that was the obvious attempt of the troll who started the thread.

Jesus Pats fans, keep your smack in the right forum just like Bill keeps his video cameras in the right places, now.

There wasn't any smack at all, just good discussion, until you rolled your fat ass and big mouth onto the scene.

[chazoe60]

This dumpster fure of a bait thread needs to be black holed. Mr. BJ offers nothing of substance and needs to stick to the smack forum with his weak smack or just G T F O completely.

[Mr Bojangles]

He's also the one that tried to use a 2 year old bleacher report to smack our DBs :lol:! This bojangles guy is awesome. I hope he sticks around to beat around for a while. We need a new punching bag since the raider fans don't come around often enough.


LOL.... two years old, or not, tell me who was on your roster in 2012 that would have cracked the Top 50 list..???

Take a good long look and then get back to me with an apology.

[TXBRONC]

You're the one that changed the topic dipshit.

Spot on. :salute:

[Mr Bojangles]

Can this shit be moved to smack, that was the obvious attempt of the troll who started the thread.

Jesus Pats fans, keep your smack in the right forum just like Bill keeps his video cameras in the right places, now.

" BroncosForums,

Recently there have been some instances where members feel the need to moderate the board. We cannot allow this to continue. There is never a time when it is OK for a member, and especially multiple members, to attack another member. Please report issues, PM a moderator or Tned with your concerns, but do not take matters into your own hands. Besides the work that winds up causing in cleaning up threads, it only serves to make matters worse. If this sort of vigilantism continues we will be forced to take action against all parties involved.

We have a damned good football team, let's all enjoy it!

You can dismiss this message by clicking the x in the upper right corner of this message box. The x can be difficult to see, because it's black/dark blue on the blue background, but it's in the upper right hand corner of this message box...."

I think this probably applies to you, tough guy.

Who put you in charge?

If you don't like my thread, just SYBM and leave.

[chazoe60]

This thread sux and was an obvious trolling attempt by a fan of another team. It needs to be moved to either the black hole or to smack.

[chazoe60]

" BroncosForums,

Recently there have been some instances where members feel the need to moderate the board. We cannot allow this to continue. There is never a time when it is OK for a member, and especially multiple members, to attack another member. Please report issues, PM a moderator or Tned with your concerns, but do not take matters into your own hands. Besides the work that winds up causing in cleaning up threads, it only serves to make matters worse. If this sort of vigilantism continues we will be forced to take action against all parties involved.

We have a damned good football team, let's all enjoy it!

You can dismiss this message by clicking the x in the upper right corner of this message box. The x can be difficult to see, because it's black/dark blue on the blue background, but it's in the upper right hand corner of this message box...."

I think this probably applies to you, tough guy.

Who put you in charge?

If you don't like my thread, just SYBM and leave.
I thought about that and decided I didn't give a ****.

[Dzone]

Like I said in that other Patriots thread, Patriots discussion boards must really be shitty.

[underrated29]

LOL.... two years old, or not, tell me who was on your roster in 2012 that would have cracked the Top 50 list..???

Take a good long look and then get back to me with an apology.


2 of them. Champ and Chris Harris. Go look up PFF for rankings.


Oh, and I was calling you a douche bag earlier. :shrug:

[BroncoWave]

This thread sux and was an obvious trolling attempt by a fan of another team. It needs to be moved to either the black hole or to smack.

He's trying so hard too. It's quite hilarious

[slim]

Lol

[CoachChaz]

Maybe we should discuss how Aqib Talib is going to transform the NE secondary

[Ravage!!!]

I hope 'jangles never leaves!! He's the perfect slap dummy!

[slim]

I hope 'jangles never leaves!! He's the perfect slap dummy!

He's the dumbest smart person I've ever met.

[Poet]

He's the dumbest smart person I've ever met.

When I was a kid, my nickname was the stupid genius. Your post made me think of that.

I like Jangles. He's good for the board.

[slim]

When I was a kid, my nickname was the stupid genius. Your post made me think of that.

I like Jangles. He's good for the board.

I think that nickname works for you (minus the genius part).

Mr. BJ makes me laugh, so that is a good thing.

[Poet]

I think that nickname works for you (minus the genius part).

Mr. BJ makes me laugh, so that is a good thing.

Slim, why is it that I called a truce with you, and you keep attacking me?

It hurts my feelings.

[slim]

Slim, why is it that I called a truce with you, and you keep attacking me?

It hurts my feelings.

Oh, I thought the truce allowed for some good natured ribbing (like when you told me you like to bang my wife). Did I misunderstand?

[topscribe]

Ok, now that about 5 different posters have all told me how great the Denver DBs are, I think it's time for a comment Let's start tho by perusing the following link..

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1090312-nfl-power-ranking-the-top-50-active-defensive-backs/page/37 ,a list of the Top 50 (Yes, FIFTY) CBs in the League to see how many Broncos made that cut.

As to my own perspective, may I say they sure didn't look too great against Flacco in the POs last season. Moore....is he still on the roster after that disastrous brainfart in the waning moments of Denver's lone PO appearance last season?

Then we have the issue of Bailey, 13 years in the League and another year older? Now he may have been one of the best at one time, but get real! Father time will surely catch up to him and it started to show last year. It will become apparent to even the casual observer, this season, so get ready.

Quentin Jammer, great name for a DB, is serviceable.

I guess all you guys are thinking about the rookies' potential when you try to tell me how good the Denver secondary is, but I discount that sort of analysis to the season actually gets underway and we see these guys in action.
As I said in another thread, everyone has a right to vent his own opinion . . .

. . . no matter how stupid it is . . .

[Northman]

I hope 'jangles never leaves!! He's the perfect slap dummy!

So in other words he is like the Patriots version of OR.

[Mr Bojangles]

When I was a kid, my nickname was the stupid genius. Your post made me think of that.

I like Jangles. He's good for the board.

I certainly don't consider myself a genius.

It probably only appears that way because you've spent so much time conversing with Chazeo60, Slim and a few other real idiots on this site.

[slim]

I certainly don't consider myself a genius.



Neither does anyone else.

[Mr Bojangles]

Oh, I thought the truce allowed for some good natured ribbing (like when you told me you like to bang my wife). Did I misunderstand?

He said he likes to bang your wife? And you thought it was just 'good natured ribbing'..? LOL



I heard she took a poll which showed none of the respondents was particularly impressed.

[chazoe60]

He said he likes to bang your wife? And you thought it was just 'good natured ribbing'..? LOL



I heard she took a poll which showed none of the respondents was particularly impressed.
Do you even know what a vagina looks like? I bet you know what a dick tastes like though.

[slim]

He said he likes to bang your wife? And you thought it was just 'good natured ribbing'..? LOL



I heard she took a poll which showed none of the respondents was particularly impressed.

You don't know what your talking about (as usual).

[Mr Bojangles]

2 of them. Champ and Chris Harris. Go look up PFF for rankings.


Oh, and I was calling you a douche bag earlier. :shrug:

HaHa...I completely missed that, since I thought we were discussing football.

So, I get scorned for quoting BR, but you then turn around and cite fantasy rankings..???:rolleyes:

[Mr Bojangles]

Do you even know what a vagina looks like? I do, but you haven't shown me that you're old enough for me to describe it for you I bet you know what a dick tastes like though.Actually, no, I don't.....so why don't you tell us.

HAHA...what a dork you are, Tough Guy.

Are you licensed to carry?

[SR]

HAHA...what a dork you are, Tough Guy.

Are you licensed to carry?

you're a tool.

[slim]

you're a tool.

He is the great Mr. BJ and his posts are to be respected....and so is his deep throat!

[Mr Bojangles]

Wow, thread moved!


Now I'm really impressed with Cheezey's whining ability.

[SR]

Wow, thread moved!

Now I'm really impressed with Cheezey's whining ability.

You'll be really impressed with the mods' banning ability before long.

[Mr Bojangles]

He is the great Mr. BJ and his posts are to be respected!

Wow..I had no idea I could intimidate and cower you people so easily. I feel bad for you, but I won't apologize for being able to construct a basic sentence or put forth a logical argument.

Sorry you're not up to the task of challenging me in a reasonable fashion. Maybe if WTE and the other NE fans hadn't beat up on your fragile psyches so often, you wouldn't feel so stupid and helpless?

[Poet]

Wow..I had no idea I could intimidate and cower you people so easily. I feel bad for you, but I won't apologize for being able to construct a basic sentence or put forth a logical argument.

Sorry you're not up to the task of challenging me in a reasonable fashion. Maybe if WTE and the other NE fans hadn't beat up on your fragile psyches so often, you wouldn't feel so stupid and helpless?

BJ, I can't lie to you, WTE has never beat anyone up in a football conversation.

Ever.

He gets beaten like a drum.

[Mr Bojangles]

You'll be really impressed with the mods' banning ability before long.

Sounds like another whiner. You guys should form a duet and harmonize.

[SR]

Sounds like another whiner. You guys should form a duet and harmonize.

I'm not whining. I've been here for six years...I know how long people like you last...which isn't long.

[Mr Bojangles]

BJ, I can't lie to you, WTE has never beat anyone up in a football conversation.

Ever.

He gets beaten like a drum.


I've read a lot of posts, King. You're nuts, you know.

Hey, I haven't forgotten I owe you a detailed response. I got home and had a long list of things to catch up on, and only so much time to do it. Plus, I'm basically a lazy *****

But you produced a great comment, worthy of a detailed and precise response, and I'll get to it soon. You are one of the few who seem serious about talking football, and that is appealing to me, being an argumentative SOB.

[SR]

I've read a lot of posts, King. You're nuts, you know.

Hey, I haven't forgotten I owe you a detailed response. I got home and had a long list of things to catch up on, and only so much time to do it. Plus, I'm basically a lazy *****

But you produced a great comment, worthy of a detailed and precise response, and I'll get to it soon. You are one of the few who seem serious about talking football, and that is appealing to me, being an argumentative SOB.

If your posts weren't god awful and you didn't come across like a dipshit, a lot more people would probably be willing to talk football with you.

[Poet]

I've read a lot of posts, King. You're nuts, you know.

Hey, I haven't forgotten I owe you a detailed response. I got home and had a long list of things to catch up on, and only so much time to do it. Plus, I'm basically a lazy *****

But you produced a great comment, worthy of a detailed and precise response, and I'll get to it soon. You are one of the few who seem serious about talking football, and that is appealing to me, being an argumentative SOB.

How on earth am I nuts?

You seem like a nice man. WTE and PAGS thrive on this board because they're nice people. Plus we take kindly to extra chromosome owners like WTE. You just need to cool it. You gotta earn your stripes before you just start taking shots at their team. It is their board.

The potshot at their secondary is a little unfounded though. Their pass rush does help their secondary, but they have some good players. Champ is still a top flight CB. Harris is a good CB, although some on here think he's god. Then again, some on here thought that he's a super slow bum. Something about a 100 yard Flacco pick or something. It was stupid. Anyway...

I await your response. I want you to know that I will give you the business.


The....



Business...



Business...



But I ain't talkin' inheritance, sunshine.

[slim]

Wow..I had no idea I could intimidate and cower you people so easily. I feel bad for you, but I won't apologize for being able to construct a basic sentence or put forth a logical argument.

Sorry you're not up to the task of challenging me in a reasonable fashion. Maybe if WTE and the other NE fans hadn't beat up on your fragile psyches so often, you wouldn't feel so stupid and helpless?

LOL...yeah, you are intimidating. A lot like an 8th grader with a puffed out chest.

Challenging you on what? Your ability to dig out meaningless articles from 2 years ago? Post something intelligent and I will respond accordingly.

[Poet]

LOL...yeah, you are intimidating. A lot like an 8th grader with a puffed out chest.

Challenging you on what? Your ability to big out meaningless articles from 2 years ago? Post something intelligent and I will respond accordingly.

No you won't.

You're pretty stupid.

[slim]

no you won't.

You're pretty stupid.

gfy.

[Poet]

gfy.

Gravy, football, yardwork?

[SR]

Gravy, football, yardwork?

God ****** you.

[slim]

Gravy, football, yardwork?

We had a good run.

[Poet]

We had a good run.

You kept breaking the truce. This is your fault.

BJ, you're my new Slim. Welcome aboard.

[underrated29]

HaHa...I completely missed that, since I thought we were discussing football.

So, I get scorned for quoting BR, but you then turn around and cite fantasy rankings..???:rolleyes:



You're new here so I figured I better make it more obvious. Is pro football to us a fantasy site? I don't believe so. I know they are pretty respected and renown. Br is just fans like you and I who write things.

[SR]

You kept breaking the truce. This is your fault.

BJ, you're my new Slim. Welcome aboard.

We're growing apart. You're making terrible e-life choices and I just don't know if I can hang around for you imminent demise.

[Poet]

We're growing apart. You're making terrible e-life choices and I just don't know if I can hang around for you imminent demise.

You taught me hockey. We can't grow apart. Look at what Slim did. I even have grown tighter with Davii, SR, you have to look at Slim. He broke the truce and lied to me.

[SR]

You taught me hockey. We can't grow apart. Look at what Slim did. I even have grown tighter with Davii, SR, you have to look at Slim. He broke the truce and lied to me.

I need some time.

[Poet]

I need some time.

As an act of good faith, I drop Jangles and pick up UR29.

[BroncoJoe]

I may be in the minority, like BTB, but I kind of like jangles.

[SR]

As an act of good faith, I drop Jangles and pick up UR29.

Fair trade. I accept. Now go fill the last available slot on the Official BF Fantasy League.

[SR]

I may be in the minority, like BTB, but I kind of like jangles.

He's a good punching bag.

[Poet]

Fair trade. I accept. Now go fill the last available slot on the Official BF Fantasy League.

I don't like the scoring.

[Mr Bojangles]

How on earth am I nuts?

You seem like a nice man. WTE and PAGS thrive on this board because they're nice people. Plus we take kindly to extra chromosome owners like WTE. You just need to cool it. You gotta earn your stripes before you just start taking shots at their team. It is their board.

The potshot at their secondary is a little unfounded though. Their pass rush does help their secondary, but they have some good players. Champ is still a top flight CB. Harris is a good CB, although some on here think he's god. Then again, some on here thought that he's a super slow bum. Something about a 100 yard Flacco pick or something. It was stupid. Anyway...

I await your response. I want you to know that I will give you the business.


The....



Business...



Business...



But I ain't talkin' inheritance, sunshine.

Nuts.. regarding WTE. He owns these guys.

You make an excellent point regarding the Denver pass rush helping out their secondary last season... part of my justification for questioning their efficacy. I doubt some of the Denver fans have even considered that aspect, and attribute all of their success to the coverage alone.

Look, Bailey was a great corner, without question. Does that mean he will be forever? Does it mean that he didn't start the slide last year? I thought I saw some diminishment in skill, and I certainly think it will be more pronounced this season, his 14th, I believe. That's not a potshot. It's a very reasonable expectation.

Harris.... great? I don't think so. 3 picks in 15 games in 2012. Average, I'd say. I think he did return one for a TD, so maybe that's where the troops got all excited about the guy. Oh, and he also had a couple of sacks, I think.....a CB making a sack really gets the fans' blood pumping and may account for the elevation of him to elite status.

So my comment which started all the nonsensical responses from Denver fans to the effect that measuring Welker's training camp performance by this opposition was not necessarily indicative of anything!

I think that's a fair assessment. Maybe not to a blind homer, but fair, nonetheless.

[SR]

Picks don't dictate how good a CB is. Harris is a pretty solid cover guy and does a pretty solid job breaking up passes and disrupting routes. He's one of the better nickel guys in the league.

And King is a Bengals fan, slick.

[Poet]

Nuts.. regarding WTE. He owns these guys.

You make an excellent point regarding the Denver pass rush helping out their secondary last season... part of my justification for questioning their efficacy. I doubt some of the Denver fans have even considered that aspect, and attribute all of their success to the coverage alone.

Look, Bailey was a great corner, without question. Does that mean he will be forever? Does it mean that he didn't start the slide last year? I thought I saw some diminishment in skill, and I certainly think it will be more pronounced this season, his 14th, I believe. That's not a potshot. It's a very reasonable expectation.

Harris.... great? I don't think so. 3 picks in 15 games in 2012. Average, I'd say. I think he did return one for a TD, so maybe that's where the troops got all excited about the guy. Oh, and he also had a couple of sacks, I think.....a CB making a sack really gets the fans' blood pumping and may account for the elevation of him to elite status.

So my comment which started all the nonsensical responses from Denver fans to the effect that measuring Welker's training camp performance by this opposition was not necessarily indicative of anything!

I think that's a fair assessment. Maybe not to a blind homer, but fair, nonetheless.

WTE is public property on this site.

You're forgetting that the Denver secondary also helps the pass rush with coverage sacks. They did it against Cincinnati last year.

INT's have little to do with how great a corner is. For instance, Jennings for Chicago led the league in INT's. He is not the best corner in football. Not. At all. Guys like Deion Sanders are rare. It's hard to have a ton of picks and shut guys down. Champ is still a top ten corner. He can't cover the burners anymore. He's old. Old is not bad. This is why Denver just got DRC. DRC is a good player.

Harris isn't a great corner. He's a good corner. No one here thinks he's great, except a few posters. Right now you're arguing against points that haven't been made.

Denver has a legitimate claim to a strong defensive backfield. Are they the best? I don't think they are, but the argument can be made. Denver's got a sick defense my man.

That's why I disagree with your assessment.

[Dzone]

Welker is saying Duke Ihanacho is the best safety he has ever played with. Heard it on Brandon Spanos show.
It's Nacho Time!!!!

[SR]

Welker is saying Duke Ihanacho is the best safety he has ever played with. Heard it on Brandon Spanos show.
It's Nacho Time!!!!

Big words coming from someone who played with Rodney Harrison.

[Poet]

Big words coming from someone who played with Rodney Harrison.

Well to be fair, Harrison was a cheater, a dirty player and couldn't cover a ******* bed with a blanket.

[Dzone]

Big words coming from someone who played with Rodney Harrison.
Yep, Duke is coming on the B Spanos show in a few minutes.
Theyre Saying he is working his way onto the first team. Maybe Nacho is the surprise of camp so far.

[Mr Bojangles]

WTE is public property on this site.

You're forgetting that the Denver secondary also helps the pass rush with coverage sacks. Fair enough. They did it against Cincinnati last year.

INT's have little to do with how great a corner is. I think I know what you mean, here, but I wouldn't put it like that...I would agree that INTs are NOT the only or biggest measure of a CBs worth For instance, Jennings for Chicago led the league in INT's. He is not the best corner in football. Not. At all. Guys like Deion Sanders are rare. It's hard to have a ton of picks and shut guys down. That's why I tried to fairly paint the picture of Harris' contributions..I suppose I could have looked up his passes defended stats, for example, but like I said elsewhere, I am basically a lazy ******* Champ is still a top ten corner. He can't cover the burners anymore. He's old. Old is not bad. No, it isn't....most of us get smarter as we get older, due to experience. This is why Denver just got DRC. DRC is a good player. we'll see, on that one

Harris isn't a great corner. He's a good corner. No one here thinks he's great, except a few posters. Yet, I was taken to the woodshed because I expressed that sentiment...go figure! Right now you're arguing against points that haven't been made. Made, or not, the implications were there.

Denver has a legitimate claim to a strong defensive backfield. Are they the best? I don't think they are, but the argument can be made. As the best?....No, it can't. That would be a stretch, as this season will bear me out. Denver's got a sick defense my man. By 'sick', you mean great or awesome? Last season, they got thumped by NE, Atlanta and Houston, all pretty good offensive teams....who did they play and beat that had presented a challenging defensive test?

That's why I disagree with your assessment. And I'm wondering why.

But you do present some interesting points and aspects

[Poet]

See, when you say interesting, it's easy to see that as a slight. It's almost as if you're saying "Yeah, that's not completely retarded, but not right." I don't take it that way, but then again I'm more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe because you haven't been telling me ad nauseum about how much my team sucks. ;)

Here's the thing about picks, the guys who lead the league in picks are usually a flash in the pan. Let's see how Jennings does this year. I remember when Deltha O'Neal tied for the league in picks, a bunch of Cincinnati fans made a big deal out of it. I knew it wouldn't last. I don't think Rod Woodson and Mel Blount were leading the league in picks. Revis isn't a pick machine. Nnamdi Aasamamoughwhatchastickle wasn't a big pick guy either. Picks are turnovers. Turnovers are awesome. But overall, they are a red herring.

I understand being a lazy ass, but if you're going to argue, at least have the data. Harris allows very few passes to be completed. That's his job. He also took that job away from a dynamic Tracy Porter.

As far as DRC being a good corner, he is. He was good in Arizona. He struggled in a scheme that did not fit his strengths in Philly. The kid can play ball. Is he a top five elite monster? No. But I didn't say great. I said good.

As far as implications and the woodshed are concerned, it's easy. I 'get' to say more about the Broncos players than you do because I've been here for a long time. You're a new guy who is already bashing their team. You're also a rival poster, who has ironically sided with a guy whose acronymically designed name stands for "Worst Troll Ever." You don't get that leeway. I also phrased the same sentiments in a less in your face way.

In regards to it being the best or one of the best, or the argument for it. Go ahead and make it. I don't believe that there are more than five secondaries that are better than Denver. I know that I will win that argument. With ease. If something is top five, you can make a reasonable argument for it being the best.

That was easy.

The Panthers, Buccs and Saints all had very good offenses. And they did lose to the Texans, Falcs and the Patriots. But to be fair, they beat the Ravens earlier in the year, badly, and the Ravens won it all.

By sick, I mean sick. Denver has a nasty defense. Easily a top ten defense. Second in yards and fourth in points per game.

[underrated29]

As an act of good faith, I drop Jangles and pick up UR29.



Should I be insulted by this or just turned on?

[Poet]

Should I be insulted by this or just turned on?

Yes.

We ride now, UR. Your beef is my beef. My beef is your beef. We ride.

[CoachChaz]

The same guy that says Edelman, Amendola and Dobson are going to be a threatening receiving corps also says the Denver defense and secondary isnt very good. Take it for what its worth

[Dapper Dan]

Using Bleacher Report as a source is like using Wikipedia, except less reliable. I could go make an article ranking the best CB groups in the NFL and rank Denver number one. Would that be an adequate source?

[SR]

Well to be fair, Harrison was a cheater, a dirty player and couldn't cover a ******* bed with a blanket.

Meh. Moot point.

[slim]

You kept breaking the truce. This is your fault.

BJ, you're my new Slim. Welcome aboard.

I don't care.

[slim]

Welker is saying Duke Ihanacho is the best safety he has ever played with. Heard it on Brandon Spanos show.
It's Nacho Time!!!!

Well that is an odd thing to say.

[TXBRONC]

I don't care.

You're better off without him Slim. King is like the girlfriend you could never trust. :D

[slim]

You're better off without him Slim. King is like the girlfriend you could never trust. :D

He is exactly like a girl, I agree 100%.

**** that fat bitch anyway.

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm planning on eating at Wes Welker's tonight. I'll post a review.

[slim]

I'm planning on eating at Wes Welker's tonight. I'll post a review.

Wes has a joint in OK?

[CoachChaz]

Wes has a joint in OK?

Sports Bar & Grill

[slim]

Sports Bar & Grill

Have you been?

[CoachChaz]

Have you been?

Yep. Had a bison burger that was really good and they have a nice selection of beer. Place is laid out pretty nicely too. I'd go back again.

[NightTrainLayne]

Yep. Had a bison burger that was really good and they have a nice selection of beer. Place is laid out pretty nicely too. I'd go back again.


What the. . .. You were in OKC and didn't call me.

I guess that makes up for the last several times I've been to Dallas and haven't called you. BTW, my little brother just moved to Dallas. He's in North Dallas near Addison.

[slim]

What the. . .. You were in OKC and didn't call me.

I guess that makes up for the last several times I've been to Dallas and haven't called you. BTW, my little brother just moved to Dallas. He's in North Dallas near Addison.

Is he still hanging out at gay bars?

[NightTrainLayne]

Is he still hanging out at gay bars?


I think that's one of the primary reasons he moved to Dallas.

[slim]

I think that's one of the primary reasons he moved to Dallas.

I've heard that about Texans. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

[CoachChaz]

What the. . .. You were in OKC and didn't call me.

I guess that makes up for the last several times I've been to Dallas and haven't called you. BTW, my little brother just moved to Dallas. He's in North Dallas near Addison.

I go through OKC quite a bit on my way to Kansas, where my wife's family lives. But you've blown me off the last few times you were in Dallas. I dont even get calendars anymore...so I just figured you didnt love me anymore.

[CoachChaz]

Dallas is so dman eclectic anymore, you tend to forget it's a southern city. Except for days like today when it's 105 outside. But once you get outside the metroplex, it's more "Texas".

He'll probably be hanging out in Oak Lawn quite a bit.

[Poet]

He is exactly like a girl, I agree 100%.

**** that fat bitch anyway.

:tsk:

[chazoe60]

He is exactly like a girl, I agree 100%.

**** that fat bitch anyway.
There is nothing girly about Kin..........:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


I almost got through it.

[Poet]

There is nothing girly about Kin..........:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


I almost got through it.

This makes two.

[MNPatsFan]

2 of them. Champ and Chris Harris. Go look up PFF for rankings.


Oh, and I was calling you a douche bag earlier. :shrug:Well I wasn't able to access PFF's rankings because I am not a gold member, but I am not seeing any of Denver's DBs on these lists:

http://football.razzball.com/2013-defensive-back-rankings-its-morgan-a-feeling

http://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/rankings/db-cheatsheets.php

http://www.idpguru.com/2013/03/2013-idp-redraft-rankings-defensive_6.html

A Bronco (Mike Adams) is 49th on this list http://www.fftoday.com/rankings/playerrank.php?o=2&PosID=70&LeagueID=1&order_by=Rank&sort_order=ASC&cur_page=4

Looks like a number of evaluators don't have a very high opinion of the 2013 Broncos DBs.;)

Champ doesn't even show up in the top 50 of any of these lists because he is past his prime and has declined from his previously top tier play and position.

[MNPatsFan]

How on earth am I nuts?

Champ is still a top flight CB.Well making this statement in 2013 instead of during 2001-2011 is a prime example of why someone might consider you nuts King.;)

Champ is no longer a top flight CB unless your definition of top flight is different than mine. Champ is no longer a top 10 CB and very well might not be a top 20 or 25 CB any more. I would have to look at the CBs for all the teams to determine who is a better CB than Champ at this time and point in his career.

[Poet]

Well making this statement in 2013 instead of during 2001-2011 is a prime example of why someone might consider you nuts King.;)

Champ is no longer a top flight CB unless your definition of top flight is different than mine. Champ is no longer a top 10 CB and very well might not be a top 20 or 25 CB any more. I would have to look at the CBs for all the teams to determine who is a better CB than Champ at this time and point in his career.

That's one of the worst statements I have ever read on this message board. He gave up one touchdown last year. In the entire season, he had two bad games. If you want to argue that he's not a top five corner, that's one thing, but top ten, or twenty/twenty-five is hysterically awful.

[Poet]

The first link you gave us has Charles Tillman as the third ranked DB.

Now kids, who here watches a lot of Bears games?

Who here can explain to me why a guy who plays almost entirely in a cover two shell is being heralded as a top five DB?

Oh, because it's for FANTASY FOOTBALL!

DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

[Mr Bojangles]

Well making this statement in 2013 instead of during 2001-2011 is a prime example of why someone might consider you nuts King.;)

Champ is no longer a top flight CB unless your definition of top flight is different than mine. Champ is no longer a top 10 CB and very well might not be a top 20 or 25 CB any more. I would have to look at the CBs for all the teams to determine who is a better CB than Champ at this time and point in his career.

I like this guy. I like him very much.

Sane, rational, fair-minded, and logical.

Take off the tinted specs, Bronco fans. You have a pretty decent defense, but not elite or outstanding. If you beat up on some of the elite offenses, then sure, I'll be happy to reconsider my position.

But the message here is, don't get carried away with yourselves too early.

[Poet]

I like this guy. I like him very much.

Sane, rational, fair-minded, and logical.

Take off the tinted specs, Bronco fans. You have a pretty decent defense, but not elite or outstanding. If you beat up on some of the elite offenses, then sure, I'll be happy to reconsider my position.

But the message here is, don't get carried away with yourselves too early.

They were top five in points allowed and yards per game.

Rebut that.

[SR]

I like this guy. I like him very much.

Sane, rational, fair-minded, and logical.

Take off the tinted specs, Bronco fans. You have a pretty decent defense, but not elite or outstanding. If you beat up on some of the elite offenses, then sure, I'll be happy to reconsider my position.

But the message here is, don't get carried away with yourselves too early.

Denver had a statistically elite defense last year. So how can you logically assume they won't be again this year?

[Mr Bojangles]

That's one of the worst statements I have ever read on this message board. He gave up one touchdown last year. In the entire season, he had two bad games. If you want to argue that he's not a top five corner, that's one thing, but top ten, or twenty/twenty-five is hysterically awful.

King, don't confuse top ten highest-paid with Top Ten, production wise. :D

Surely you agree, we will see a marked fall off in his performance? His rep will help him a bit, as it does with all the great ones at the tail end of their careers, so it won't be as

obvious to the untrained observer, but keep an eye open and you will be agreeing with us by the end of the season. Corner back is one those positions where it is difficult to conceal the ravages of Father Time.

[EMB6903]

Champ isnt a top 10 CB?

LMAO!

Please name 10 cornerbacks you have ahead of him?

I dare you to mention Hall and Cromartie in that 10.

[Mr Bojangles]

Denver had a statistically elite defense last year. So how can you logically assume they won't be again this year?

"Stats are for losers".....and didn't the Denver season bear that out last season as well as anything could have?

You cite logic, yet logic is all on my side of this discussion, and bears me out completely.

[Poet]

King, don't confuse top ten highest-paid with Top Ten, production wise. :D

Surely you agree, we will see a marked fall off in his performance? His rep will help him a bit, as it does with all the great ones at the tail end of their careers, so it won't be as

obvious to the untrained observer, but keep an eye open and you will be agreeing with us by the end of the season. Corner back is one those positions where it is difficult to conceal the ravages of Father Time.

Your argument is heavily flawed. Heavily, heavily flawed.

Your first sentence argues nothing.

Your second sentence presumes that a marked fall off in performance would mean that he's still not a top 5-25 player. Tomlinson started to decline as a Charger, and he was still one of the best backs in the league. You guys picked up an aging Cory Dillon, who was declining, but he was still one of the best backs in the league.

You again assume that your eyes are better than mine. Good god, they're not. At the start of the Baltimore game, I said it's a bad matchup to keep Champ on Smith. Smith is one of the fastest players in the league. Smith beat Bailey like a drum. I saw that coming mile away.

That means that Bailey no longer matches up against the elite burners in the league. Hence why Denver signed Cromartie. He does have the speed to keep up with the fastest WR's in the league.

But again, outside of fantasy stats and conjecture, show me something that says he's still not a top flight corner. Don't cite me two games. Don't cite me your opinion. Back it up. DO SOMETHING.

[SR]

"Stats are for losers".....and didn't the Denver season bear that out last season as well as anything could have?

You cite logic, yet logic is all on my side of this discussion, and bears me out completely.

How the season ended doesn't detract from what Denver's defense did the entire year. Led the league in sacks and were top five in most significant categories. But tell me again about how great Talib will make your defense...

[Poet]

"Stats are for losers".....and didn't the Denver season bear that out last season as well as anything could have?

You cite logic, yet logic is all on my side of this discussion, and bears me out completely.

You mean like having the best offense in the game. Or like having a record breaking passing season for TD's and losing in the SB? So you want to then dismiss the stats that don't agree with you on one hand, and then cite them in other arguments when they do agree with you?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sophistry?s=t


soph·ist·ry [sof-uh-stree] Show IPA
noun, plural soph·ist·ries.
1.
a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2.
a false argument; sophism.

[Poet]

Champ isnt a top 10 CB?

LMAO!

Please name 10 cornerbacks you have ahead of him?

I dare you to mention Hall and Cromartie in that 10.

Well, Leon Hall is a top ten corner...

[EMB6903]

There isn't a defensive back on the patsies that was more productive than Harris and bailey last year.

[EMB6903]

Well, Leon Hall is a top ten corner...

Leon hall is solid. I was referring to deangelo hall who I think is in the same class.

Both aren't better than champ.

[Poet]

Leon hall is solid. I was referring to deangelo hall who I think is in the same class.

Both aren't better then champ.

Ah. I don't think Leon Hall is better than Champ, but he's better than solid.

Regardless, the notion that Bailey isn't a top ten corner is absurdity.

[MNPatsFan]

Champ isnt a top 10 CB?

LMAO!

Please name 10 cornerbacks you have ahead of him?

I dare you to mention Hall and Cromartie in that 10.In no particular order:
D. Revis (even though coming of torn ACL, most GMs would take him over Champ IMHO)
R. Sherman
P. Peterson
L. Webb
C. Rogers
B. Browner
C. Hayward
T. Brown
B. Flowers
K. Jackson

There are ten and I suspect there are more.

People need to stop living in the past. Champ was a great top tier CB but he isn't any longer.

[Pudge]

Peterson is a hell of a returner but I wouldn't put him above champ. Champs knowledge makes him better even though he's slowed down

[Poet]

In no particular order:
D. Revis (even though coming of torn ACL, most GMs would take him over Champ IMHO)
R. Sherman
P. Peterson
L. Webb
C. Rogers
B. Browner
C. Hayward
T. Brown
B. Flowers
K. Jackson

There are ten and I suspect there are more.

People need to stop living in the past. Champ was a great top tier CB but he isn't any longer.

Webb and Carlos Rogers?

Do you actually watch football?

[MNPatsFan]

Ah. I don't think Leon Hall is better than Champ, but he's better than solid.Forgot Leon Hall. Probably would place him over Champ in 2013


Regardless, the notion that Bailey isn't a top ten corner is absurdity.During 2001-2010/11 you are right, but not in 2013. King you need to stop living in the past.;)

:D

[MNPatsFan]

Webb and Carlos Rogers?

Do you actually watch football?Yes I watch a lot of football. I am starting to wonder if you watch any current football or just watch the reruns of games on NFL Network from the 2001-2010/11 seasons. Last season the Broncos pass rush covered the deficiencies of the Champ and the other DBs. In the playoffs, however, the pass rush wasn't able to do that and Champ was exposed, which gave rise to the discussion of Champ moving to safety.

[Poet]

Forgot Leon Hall. Probably would place him over Champ in 2013

During 2001-2010/11 you are right, but not in 2013. King you need to stop living in the past.;)

:D


Seeing how Hall was hurt in the first part of the year and had issues until the middle of the season, you'd be wrong.


What about Champ's play tailed off? He gave up one TD to one of the best WR's in the game. He had one bad regular season game. One. For the love of god.

[SR]

In no particular order:
D. Revis (even though coming of torn ACL, most GMs would take him over Champ IMHO)
R. Sherman
P. Peterson
L. Webb
C. Rogers
B. Browner
C. Hayward
T. Brown
B. Flowers
K. Jackson

There are ten and I suspect there are more.

People need to stop living in the past. Champ was a great top tier CB but he isn't any longer.

Lmao. Champ is one of the best EVER...not some slouch that had a couple good years and happened to be one of the best corners in the league for a little while. He's one of the best corners to ever p,ay football. You putting those guys ahead of Bailey shows your bias and ignorance.

[Poet]

Yes I watch a lot of football. I am starting to wonder if you watch any current football or just watch the reruns of games on NFL Network from the 2001-2010/11 seasons. Last season the Broncos pass rush covered the deficiencies of the Champ and the other DBs. In the playoffs, however, the pass rush wasn't able to do that and Champ was exposed, which gave rise to the discussion of Champ moving to safety.

Oh MN, you make me so sad.

What deficiencies are you talking about? Because it sure does sound like you're saying "He wasn't that good,but it didn't show...so I then have to justify my claim because he had a bad game in the playoffs." If that's your argument, you got jack shit. One game doesn't negate a Pro Bowl worthy season. Furthermore, the awful Champ to safety conversations have been going on for the past two years.

[MOtorboat]

Yes I watch a lot of football. I am starting to wonder if you watch any current football or just watch the reruns of games on NFL Network from the 2001-2010/11 seasons. Last season the Broncos pass rush covered the deficiencies of the Champ and the other DBs. In the playoffs, however, the pass rush wasn't able to do that and Champ was exposed, which gave rise to the discussion of Champ moving to safety.

He, literally, got "exposed" on three plays the entire season. Seriously. Three plays.

Get a clue, like the idiots who want him moved.

[underrated29]

In no particular order:
D. Revis (even though coming of torn ACL, most GMs would take him over Champ IMHO)
R. Sherman
P. Peterson
L. Webb
C. Rogers
B. Browner
C. Hayward
T. Brown
B. Flowers
K. Jackson

There are ten and I suspect there are more.

People need to stop living in the past. Champ was a great top tier CB but he isn't any longer.



You're high as a MFr!!!!

Let me guess, Ryan mallet, Kyle Orton, joe flacco, colt McCoy and mark Sanchez are all better qbs than drew Bree's

[Pudge]

...

[MNPatsFan]

Lmao. Champ is one of the best EVER...not some slouch that had a couple good years and happened to be one of the best corners in the league for a little while. He's one of the best corners to ever p,ay football. You putting those guys ahead of Bailey shows your bias and ignorance.SR read the context in which I named those CBs! I picked those CBs for the 2013 season, not for BEST EVER. Your inability to read and thus see how many times in my posts I stated 2013, not 2001-2010/11 shows your bias and ignorance. I knew that illiteracy was growing in the US but Holy Crap:tsk:

[MNPatsFan]

Oh MN, you make me so sad.

What deficiencies are you talking about? Because it sure does sound like you're saying "He wasn't that good,but it didn't show...so I then have to justify my claim because he had a bad game in the playoffs." If that's your argument, you got jack shit. One game doesn't negate a Pro Bowl worthy season. Furthermore, the awful Champ to safety conversations have been going on for the past two years.All I know is that Torrey Smith was abusing Champ and catching numerous passes and I believe two TDs on Champ while I was watching various parts of the game. Which I will be honest, shocked the hell out of me. I sure didn't expect to see that!

I also don't remember Champ being much of a factor in the Broncos game against the Patriots last season.

[MOtorboat]

All I know is that Torrey Smith was abusing Champ and catching numerous passes and I believe two TDs on Champ while I was watching various parts of the game. Which I will be honest, shocked the hell out of me. I sure didn't expect to see that!

I also don't remember Champ being much of a factor in the Broncos game against the Patriots last season.

Smith had three catches. One was against Champ.

[SR]

SR read the context in which I named those CBs! I picked those CBs for the 2013 season, not for BEST EVER. Your inability to read and thus see how many times in my posts I stated 2013, not 2001-2010/11 shows your bias and ignorance. I knew that illiteracy was growing in the US but Holy Crap:tsk:

My post just reiterates that he is still top five in the league.

[Dapper Dan]

Wasn't Champ like 53th on the NFL Top 100 list of 2013? (2nd CB overall on that list)

[Dapper Dan]

Wasn't Champ like 53th on the NFL Top 100 list of 2013? (2nd CB overall on that list)

Looked it up again. I was right, except it's 3rd CB overall on the list.

[MNPatsFan]

You're high as a MFr!!!!

Let me guess, Ryan mallet, Kyle Orton, joe flacco, colt McCoy and mark Sanchez are all better qbs than drew Bree'sNo, but that is a stupid comparison. When Drew Brees is entering his 15th season though, Luck, Wilson, RG III, Kapernick (sp?), and Mallett ALL may be better QBs than Drew Brees.

[Poet]

No, but that is a stupid comparison. When Drew Brees is entering his 15th season though, Luck, Wilson, RG III, Kapernick (sp?), and Mallett ALL may be better QBs than Drew Brees.

Your argument is poor. Who cares how long a player has played? It's their quality of play that matters. I can rattle off a long, long list of great players who produced greatly deep into their long career.

[MNPatsFan]

My post just reiterates that he is still top five in the league.Well we will just have to see how the season goes. I wouldn't put him in the top 5 CBs this season, but let's enjoy the season because "We can all agree that it is great that football has resumed and the season will be starting very soon!"

[MOtorboat]

"I can't really back up anything I've said, so 'here's to this coming season.'"

[SR]

Well we will just have to see how the season goes. I wouldn't put him in the top 5 CBs this season, but let's enjoy the season because "We can all agree that it is great that football has resumed and the season will be starting very soon!"
I'll accept that. Just note that I don't deny Champ is on the decline but he is still every bit as good and smart as any CB in the league.

[MNPatsFan]

Your argument is poor. Who cares how long a player has played? It's their quality of play that matters. I can rattle off a long, long list of great players who produced greatly deep into their long career.And I can rattle off an even longer list of great players who didn't. But you missed my point in that he named scrub QBs or backup QBs with a lot of talent and potential upside who haven't played yet, not top tier QBs. None of the CBs I named as better CBs than Champ are scrubs.

[MNPatsFan]

I'll accept that. Just note that I don't deny Champ is on the decline but he is still every bit as good and smart as any CB in the league.Smart, YES definitely. Good yes, but we disagree on the "as good as any CB in the league" in 2013.

[Poet]

And I can rattle off an even longer list of great players who didn't. But you missed my point in that he named scrub QBs or backup QBs with a lot of talent and potential upside who haven't played yet, not top tier QBs. None of the CBs I named as better CBs than Champ are scrubs.

Which is irrelevant to the argument.

Show me that he wasn't a top corner. Show me something. Anything. Back up your argument.

[MNPatsFan]

"I can't really back up anything I've said, so 'here's to this coming season.'"We obviously disagree on whether Champ's play is declining and whether he is a top 5 CB. We're not going to convince the other at this time that our position is correct. As a result, this upcoming season will provide the most current and soldi evidence demonstrating and/or proving whether Champs' play is declining and/or whether he is still a top 5 CB. If Champ has a great season and demonstrates he is still a top 5 CB I will freely admit it.

Are you willing to admit you were wrong if Champ doesn't have a great season and there are 5 or more CBs who play better than Champ?;)

Moreover, I hate the time between the NFL draft and the start of the next NFL season so I am sorry if my enthusiasm for the upcoming season bothers you.

[SR]

Smart, YES definitely. Good yes, but we disagree on the "as good as any CB in the league" in 2013.

That's a bit of a misnomer..the season hasn't even started

[MOtorboat]

Are you willing to admit you were wrong if Champ doesn't have a great season and there are 5 or more CBs who play better than Champ?;)

No. Because right now I'm not wrong. If at the end of the season he's not a top tier corner, that's completely different, because we have a season to talk about.

Now. I'm not wrong. Based on nearly every opinion and metric out there.

[MNPatsFan]

Which is irrelevant to the argument.

Show me that he wasn't a top corner. Show me something. Anything. Back up your argument.I named 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ in 2013 to show that he isn't a top 5 or 10 CB. What more do you wan? What exactly do you you mean by top if I tell you 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ?

If you want me to back up my argument further, all I can provide is that in the Broncos games I saw all or parts of (NE and Baltimore), Champ was a non-factor and the Broncos opponent both moved the ball and scored fairly easily. If Champ and his teammates in the secondary were as good as you and the Broncos fans claim, the opponent wouldn't be able to do those things.

Back up your argument that Champ is a top 5 CB. Explain how he is better than every CB in the NFL except for 4 or fewer CBs!

[Poet]

I named 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ in 2013 to show that he isn't a top 5 or 10 CB. What more do you wan? What exactly do you you mean by top if I tell you 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ?

If you want me to back up my argument further, all I can provide is that in the Broncos games I saw all or parts of (NE and Baltimore), Champ was a non-factor and the Broncos opponent both moved the ball and scored fairly easily. If Champ and his teammates in the secondary were as good as you and the Broncos fans claim, the opponent wouldn't be able to do those things.

Back up your argument that Champ is a top 5 CB. Explain how he is better than every CB in the NFL except for 4 or fewer CBs!

For starters, when I watched him play he was very, very good. Secondly, he's regarded by everyone to still be a great corner. Thirdly, I haven't seen anything that shows that he isn't a great player. We all know and agree that he was, and his production hasn't fallen off.

You're citing the fact that he wasn't a playmaking stud against your team, and that he struggled against the Ravens. That's completely worthless as far as an argument goes.

How many passes were completed against Champ in that game? How many times was he scored on? He can only cover one player.

[MOtorboat]

I named 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ in 2013 to show that he isn't a top 5 or 10 CB. What more do you wan? What exactly do you you mean by top if I tell you 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ?

If you want me to back up my argument further, all I can provide is that in the Broncos games I saw all or parts of (NE and Baltimore), Champ was a non-factor and the Broncos opponent both moved the ball and scored fairly easily. If Champ and his teammates in the secondary were as good as you and the Broncos fans claim, the opponent wouldn't be able to do those things.

Back up your argument that Champ is a top 5 CB. Explain how he is better than every CB in the NFL except for 4 or fewer CBs!

Four cornerbacks were named All Pro by both the writers and the nerds. Champ was one.

Listing cornerbacks isn't proof.

[SR]

I named 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ in 2013 to show that he isn't a top 5 or 10 CB. What more do you wan? What exactly do you you mean by top if I tell you 10 CBs I believe are better than Champ?

If you want me to back up my argument further, all I can provide is that in the Broncos games I saw all or parts of (NE and Baltimore), Champ was a non-factor and the Broncos opponent both moved the ball and scored fairly easily. If Champ and his teammates in the secondary were as good as you and the Broncos fans claim, the opponent wouldn't be able to do those things.

Back up your argument that Champ is a top 5 CB. Explain how he is better than every CB in the NFL except for 4 or fewer CBs!

Kinda hard for Champ to slow the other team down when opposing QBs are generally afraid to throw to his side of the field. If QBs test him this year because of the playoff game I expect him to end up with 6-8 picks and a ton of broken p passes. He hasn't lost it yet man.

[MNPatsFan]

That's a bit of a misnomer..the season hasn't even startedExactly we are projecting who we believe are/will be the top CBs for the 2013 season. Technically, I believe the 2013 season starts with the opening of training camp even though the regular season games haven't started to be played.

[MOtorboat]

Exactly we are projecting who we believe are/will be the top CBs for the 2013 season. Technically, I believe the 2013 season starts with the opening of training camp even though the regular season games haven't started to be played.

We're projecting who we think is better at the end of the season now?

My bad. Didn't realize that.

[MNPatsFan]

No. Because right now I'm not wrong. If at the end of the season he's not a top tier corner, that's completely different, because we have a season to talk about.No its not completely different. We are talking about the upcoming 2013 season and whether Champ will be a top 5 CB this season. Using your logic, Aaron Hernandez is a top tier tight end even though at the end of the season we know he won't be (Same argument could be made for any of the top tier players who have suffered a season ending injury).:tsk:

[MOtorboat]

No its not completely different. We are talking about the upcoming 2013 season and whether Champ will be a top 5 CB this season. Using your logic, Aaron Hernandez is a top tier tight end even though at the end of the season we know he won't be (Same argument could be made for any of the top tier players who have suffered a season ending injury).:tsk:

You moved the target mid-discussion so no one can prove anything.

[MNPatsFan]

For starters, when I watched him play he was very, very good. Secondly, he's regarded by everyone to still be a great corner. Thirdly, I haven't seen anything that shows that he isn't a great player. We all know and agree that he was, and his production hasn't fallen off.

You're citing the fact that he wasn't a playmaking stud against your team, and that he struggled against the Ravens. That's completely worthless as far as an argument goes.Well I can only cite the Broncos games I watched.:rolleyes:


How many passes were completed against Champ in that game? How many times was he scored on? He can only cover one player.Not sure but I seem to remember that he gave up a completion and/or TD on every pass thrown towards him in the Ravens game, but I could be wrong because I read or saw that awhile ago.

[MNPatsFan]

We're projecting who we think is better at the end of the season now?

My bad. Didn't realize that.No, I gave you my opinion that I didn't believe Champ was still a top tier CB and provided you the names of whom I believe are the top 10 CBs for the upcoming 2013 season. Now obviously the only way we will know who is right will be when the season is over.

[MNPatsFan]

You moved the target mid-discussion so no one can prove anything.No I didn't. I was always talking about whether Champ was still going to play as a top 5-10 CB in the 2013 season. Pretty sure I never said anything different, but if I did then I apologize.

Edit. Please show me how or where you believe I moved the target?

[Poet]

Well I can only cite the Broncos games I watched.:rolleyes:

Not sure but I seem to remember that he gave up a completion and/or TD on every pass thrown towards him in the Ravens game, but I could be wrong because I read or saw that awhile ago.


So two games.

Jackpot.

Best argument ever.

[EMB6903]

in no particular order:
D. Revis (even though coming of torn acl, most gms would take him over champ imho)
r. Sherman
p. Peterson
l. Webb
c. Rogers
b. Browner
c. Hayward
t. Brown
b. Flowers
k. Jackson

there are ten and i suspect there are more.

People need to stop living in the past. Champ was a great top tier cb but he isn't any longer.

lmao!

[NightTrainLayne]

I highly recommend the ribs at Wes Welker's restaurant.

Oh. . . And the green chile Mac and cheese. Heaven.

[MNPatsFan]

So two games.

Jackpot.

Best argument ever.I'm not just going to fabricate sh*t to support my argument.:tsk:

My argument is based on my observations last season and my OPINION!

I'm still waiting for you identify or explain how Champ in 2013 is better than four or fewer of the CBs in the NFL at this time (2013). You haven't even tried, but you must in order to support your argument that in 2013 he is still a top 5 CB.

Evading the question or topic .... Best argument ever by King.:rolleyes:

[Dapper Dan]

This seems odd. If you want to project how someone will do in 2013, you have to take into account what he did in 2012. He hasn't played any 2013 games. There's nothing to base an opinion or judgment on. It's like doing a mock draft. And those things are always accurate.

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm not just going to fabricate sh*t to support my argument.:tsk:

My argument is based on my observations last season and my OPINION!

I'm still waiting for you identify or explain how Champ in 2013 is better than four or fewer of the CBs in the NFL at this time (2013). You haven't even tried, but you must in order to support your argument that in 2013 he is still a top 5 CB.

Evading the question or topic .... Best argument ever by King.:rolleyes:


So you've gone from arguing that Champ isn't even a top 50 cb in the league, to putting the burden of proof on King to show that he's top 5?

I think King has won this round. Even Bengal fans can come in handy sometimes.

[GEM]

Wow, thread moved!


Now I'm really impressed with Cheezey's whining ability.

It got moved because you were so dense you couldn't figure out where the smack forum was on your own. You're welcome for the assistance.

[Poet]

I'm not just going to fabricate sh*t to support my argument.:tsk:

My argument is based on my observations last season and my OPINION!

I'm still waiting for you identify or explain how Champ in 2013 is better than four or fewer of the CBs in the NFL at this time (2013). You haven't even tried, but you must in order to support your argument that in 2013 he is still a top 5 CB.

Evading the question or topic .... Best argument ever by King.:rolleyes:


Sans two games, he was stellar,typically against the best threat the other team had. That in itself makes for a strong argument for him being top five. That, plus the fact that he's been a stud player for a long time and his play hasn't trailed off, is the other.

You have nothing to support your claims.

I'm still trying to figure out how you think Carlos Rogers is a better corner than Champ Bailey. You'll note that earlier I said something along the lines of "Saying he's not top five is one thing, but saying that he's not top ten, twenty or twenty five is another."

You have nothing.

Now stop being such a woman about it.

[NightTerror218]

I'm not just going to fabricate sh*t to support my argument.:tsk:

My argument is based on my observations last season and my OPINION!

I'm still waiting for you identify or explain how Champ in 2013 is better than four or fewer of the CBs in the NFL at this time (2013). You haven't even tried, but you must in order to support your argument that in 2013 he is still a top 5 CB.

Evading the question or topic .... Best argument ever by King.:rolleyes:

Well he is def in top 10 made pro bowl. But look at who he shut down last season. Only a couple WR did well. Texas Johnson, cinci green had good games against champ, who else during the season. Funny how QBs avoid him.


Top corners November 2012, look at #3
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000094955/article/charles-tillman-johnathan-joseph-among-top-cornerbacks

Some info
Champ held opposing quarterbacks to a 67.3 rating when throwing in his direction, good for fifth among all corners.

He was rarely thrown at, for most offenses would go the other way with the ball. He was only thrown at 74 times, fourth lowest. In 16 games that's excellent.

While he only had two picks, just his physical presence was effective enough. He is one of the most solid tacklers in NFL history as a corner.

He only had three missed tackles, tied for second best as he gave up the least amount of yards after the catch in the entire league.

[Pudge]

I'm still trying to figure out how a thread titled Welker has four pages dedicated to champ.

[Dapper Dan]

i'm still trying to figure out how a thread titled welker has four pages dedicated to champ.

adhd

[Poet]

It's because Patriots fans are ******* stupid.

Except PAGS.

[WTE]

I highly recommend the ribs at Wes Welker's restaurant.

Oh. . . And the green chile Mac and cheese. Heaven.

If you tweet him about that he will probably send a RT. He seems awfully obsessed w/ his restaurant lately. Sometimes I wonder if he has his priorities straight now that he left the structured world of New England.

[Dapper Dan]

If you tweet him about that he will probably send a RT. He seems awfully obsessed w/ his restaurant lately. Sometimes I wonder if he has his priorities straight now that he left the structured world of New England.

Yeah. The structure that produces people like Aaron Hernandez? That guy definitely has his priorities straight. At least Wes is obsessed with his restaurant instead of being a thug.

[WTE]

Yeah. The structure that produces people like Aaron Hernandez? That guy definitely has his priorities straight. At least Wes is obsessed with his restaurant instead of being a thug.

Factoid for the Retoid: Since 2000 the Denver Broncos have the 3rd most arrests in the NFL w/ 35! Number 1 on the list is Minnesota followed by Kings' loathsome Bengals.

http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/which-nfl-teams-get-arrested-most

[BroncoJoe]

Wasn't Champ like 53th on the NFL Top 100 list of 2013? (2nd CB overall on that list)


Looked it up again. I was right, except it's 3rd CB overall on the list.

As voted by current NFL Players. Not some idiot on a message board.

[Dapper Dan]

Factoid for the Retoid: Since 2000 the Denver Broncos have the 3rd most arrests in the NFL w/ 35! Number 1 on the list is Minnesota followed by Kings' loathsome Bengals.

http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/which-nfl-teams-get-arrested-most

Do you have a link for deaths responsible for? A DUI is one thing. Cold blooded murder is another.

[MNPatsFan]

This seems odd. If you want to project how someone will do in 2013, you have to take into account what he did in 2012. He hasn't played any 2013 games. There's nothing to base an opinion or judgment on.Not really. You simply project or predict how that individual or individuals will perform based on their past performance, age, injury history (if any), etc. similar to, but obviously not the same, as calculating the trajectory of an object based on data.

This has been done for years such as ranking the QBs going into each season and how in 2011 most people predicted that Brett Favre would not be a top tier quarterback based on his age, injury history, drama, and performance. Same goes for Michael Vick, Emmitt Smith towards the end of his career, etc.

In the end, it comes down to this is MY OPINION. I may be right or I may be wrong. This season will establish which.

[MNPatsFan]

So you've gone from arguing that Champ isn't even a top 50 cb in the league, to putting the burden of proof on King to show that he's top 5?

I think King has won this round. Even Bengal fans can come in handy sometimes.NOpe I never said he wasn't a top 50 cb. I merely responded to several posts by posting rankings of the TOP 50 DEFENSIVE BACKS, not cbs. Granted they were for Fantasy Football, but in my quick search I couldn't find any rankings of cbs or dbs that weren't for fantasy football. I have always claimed that in MY OPINION I don't believe that Champ is a top 5 or 10 CB any more. King or someone asked me to identify 5 or 10 CBs that I believe are better than Champ right now and I identified some names off the top of my head without doing any real research. Obviously, that is and can be debate as to whether Champ is better than some I identified, but we are all entitled to our opinions.

I realize that this post is in smack and I have been merely trying to discuss this rather than smack, but I would much rather try to engage in a civil debate than smack.

[PatriotsGuy]

Welker sucks, next subject?

[BroncoJoe]

Champ will never be ranked high for fantasy football. He rarely gets thrown at so there is very little chance he'll score points for you.

[MNPatsFan]

Sans two games, he was stellar (debatable - he played well, but stellar is to strong IMO),typically against the best threat the other team had. That in itself makes for a strong argument for him being top five (Can't make this determination in a vacuum, but have to compare his play to the play of the other CBs). That, plus the fact that he's been a stud player for a long time (true) and his play hasn't trailed off (debatable and matter of opinion - IMHO his play has trailed off), is the other.


You have nothing to support your claims.

I'm still trying to figure out how you think Carlos Rogers is a better corner than Champ Bailey. You'll note that earlier I said something along the lines of "Saying he's not top five is one thing, but saying that he's not top ten, twenty or twenty five is another."

You have nothing.

Now stop being such a woman about it.Last season I would rank these CBs ahead of Champ:
Before getting hurt D. Revis was playing better than Champ;
Both Seattle CBs were better than Champ, although I am tempted to remove them because they tested positive for PEDs;
Brandon Flowers; and
Casey Hayward.

I have just as much as you King because you have provided very little except for personal attacks.

[MNPatsFan]

Champ will never be ranked high for fantasy football. He rarely gets thrown at so there is very little chance he'll score points for you.I understand that, which is why I was looking for a ranking of CBs that wasn't fantasy football related, but wasn't able to find any. So I merely provided my opinion that I didn't believe that Champ was a top 5 or 10 CB any more, but clearly he is one of the best CBs of all time and should be a 1st ballot HFer.

[chazoe60]

Pats fans are funny. :laugh:

They want us to be scared of their receiving corp and ashamed of our DBs. :laugh:

Idiots.

[MOtorboat]

There are plenty of metrics that you can use to distinguish the performance of defensive backs other than fantasy stats.

For example, NightTerror found a good article:


Well he is def in top 10 made pro bowl. But look at who he shut down last season. Only a couple WR did well. Texas Johnson, cinci green had good games against champ, who else during the season. Funny how QBs avoid him.


Top corners November 2012, look at #3
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000094955/article/charles-tillman-johnathan-joseph-among-top-cornerbacks

Some info
Champ held opposing quarterbacks to a 67.3 rating when throwing in his direction, good for fifth among all corners.

He was rarely thrown at, for most offenses would go the other way with the ball. He was only thrown at 74 times, fourth lowest. In 16 games that's excellent.

While he only had two picks, just his physical presence was effective enough. He is one of the most solid tacklers in NFL history as a corner.

He only had three missed tackles, tied for second best as he gave up the least amount of yards after the catch in the entire league.

[PatriotsGuy]

Pats fans are funny. :laugh:

They want us to be scared of their receiving corp and ashamed of our DBs. :laugh:

Idiots.

I beg your pardon?

[Pudge]

Just for the record when 90% of us talk I'll of pats fans we include (except pags)

[MOtorboat]

Just for the record when 90% of us talk I'll of pats fans we include (except pags)

Speak for yourself.

[Pudge]

Pags is a good guy, a class act. Nothing like that degenerate WTE

[NightTrainLayne]

If you tweet him about that he will probably send a RT. He seems awfully obsessed w/ his restaurant lately. Sometimes I wonder if he has his priorities straight now that he left the structured world of New England.

I don't even think I follow him. I guess I need to add him to the list.

[MNPatsFan]

Pats fans are funny. :laugh:

They want us to be scared of their receiving corp and ashamed of our DBs. :laugh:

Idiots.Not me, at least that wasn't and hasn't been my intent.

Our receiving corp is a complete unknown so until the produce on the field, there is not much to be scared of at this time.

I honestly don't know enough about the Broncos DBs to make any general assertions regarding them and whether you should be ashamed of them.

Other than posting several links to fantasy football rankings of DBs for IDP purposes in response to someone's post that several of Denver's DBs were ranked in the top 50, I have tried to focus my posts and discussion on my OPINION regarding Champ Bailey. If I could have found ranking of NFL DBs that wasn't fantasy football related I would have because those clearly would be more applicable and on point, but I wasn't able to find any.

[WTE]

Pags is a good guy, a class act. Nothing like that degenerate WTE

I hope a forklift operator doesn't accidentally lift you up by your nut sack.

See Pudge? That was nice of me to hope that wouldn't happen to you.

Crosses fingers behind back. Puts curse on Pudge.

[Poet]

Last season I would rank these CBs ahead of Champ:
Before getting hurt D. Revis was playing better than Champ;
Both Seattle CBs were better than Champ, although I am tempted to remove them because they tested positive for PEDs;
Brandon Flowers; and
Casey Hayward.

I have just as much as you King because you have provided very little except for personal attacks.

His play didn't drop off. He played at the same high level that we were accustomed to.

[MNPatsFan]

His play didn't drop off. He played at the same high level that we were accustomed to.Even if his play didn't drop off and he played at the same high level (not saying I agree, but will assume that for the sake of this argument), Champ isn't or can't be a top 5 CB if 5 CBs were better than him last year or are better than him this year. Not sure why you aren't understanding that.:confused:

Regardless of whether Champ's play dropped off, Champ can ONLY be a TOP 5 CB if there ARE NOT 5 CBs who were or are better than Champ.;)

IMHO there were and are 5 CBs who played better than Champ last season and who will play better than Champ this season.

[CoachChaz]

All these pages of giving a shit about what Pat's fans think about Champ and our defense. Waste of time

[Poet]

Even if his play didn't drop off and he played at the same high level (not saying I agree, but will assume that for the sake of this argument), Champ isn't or can't be a top 5 CB if 5 CBs were better than him last year or are better than him this year. Not sure why you aren't understanding that.:confused:

Regardless of whether Champ's play dropped off, Champ can ONLY be a TOP 5 CB if there ARE NOT 5 CBs who were or are better than Champ.;)

IMHO there were and are 5 CBs who played better than Champ last season and who will play better than Champ this season.

I understand everything you're saying. The fault isn't on this end.

However, if Champ was a top five corner, and his play didn't drop off, he's not going to be out of the top five unless several others surpassed his play. So depending on where you put him in the top five, that's about how many other guys would have to surpass him. I've made it clear that it's one thing to say that he's not a top five corner, but another to go with your claims of him not being a twenty to twenty-five corners.

You've offered zero actual evidence to support any of your claims. I've graced you with enough of my time.

[MNPatsFan]

I understand everything you're saying.Either you clearly don't or you are evading what I am saying.


The fault isn't on this end.The fault is on both ends as I indicate below.


I've made it clear that it's one thing to say that he's not a top five corner, but another to go with your claims of him not being a twenty to twenty-five corners.I quickly realized you were correct that my initial assertion that he might not even be a top 20 CB (not sure I said top 25 but if I did, then even more absurd) was absurd and abandoned it to address my assertion and your denial that Champ isn't a top 5 CB any more. This is where I have fault for failing to expressly acknowledge that my assertion Champ might not even be a top 20 CB was absurd.


However, if Champ was a top five corner, and his play didn't drop off, he's not going to be out of the top five unless several others surpassed his play. So depending on where you put him in the top five, that's about how many other guys would have to surpass him. I've made it clear that it's one thing to say that he's not a top five corner . . . .

You've offered zero actual evidence to support any of your claims. I've graced you with enough of my time.I clearly indicated and asserted in my many posts that others had surpassed his play knocking him out of the top five. I identified and presented actual evidence of who IMHO the CBs were that had surpassed his play and whom I believe will surpass his play this season. You have either failed to understand that I asserted CBs had surpassed him and knocked him out of the top 5 CBs or ignored those assertions by continuing to claim that Champ was still top 5 because in your opinion his play had not declined. This is where you have fault for failing to understand or ignoring my assertions that CBs had surpassed him and knocked him out of the top 5.

[BroncoJoe]

Only an ass would use the word "assertions" so much.

[Ravage!!!]

that was horrible, to the point of painful, to read.

[MOtorboat]

I identified and presented actual evidence of who IMHO the CBs were that had surpassed his play and whom I believe will surpass his play this season.

You did?

Where?

[Mr Bojangles]

It got moved because you were so dense you couldn't figure out where the smack forum was on your own. You're welcome for the assistance.

I guess you haven't been moderating the other forums.....In a thread entitled "The Instigators", it has been agreed, by virtually every member posting, that I was not trolling or talking smack in this thread, and that I was unfairly attacked. So, it would seem that it got moved either because someone whined....or someone else is dense! ;)

By the way, nice to make your acquaintance, too. :welcome:

[Mr Bojangles]

I'm still trying to figure out how a thread titled Welker has four pages dedicated to champ.

It's either

1.Trolls, or

2. Stubborn Bronco fans who can't accept or concede when they're wrong, defending their old, long-time former stars. :laugh:

[Mr Bojangles]

Yeah. The structure that produces people like Aaron Hernandez? That guy definitely has his priorities straight. At least Wes is obsessed with his restaurant instead of being a thug.

Sounds like you're still upset about the drubbing NE laid on your team, and the fact that our guys were tougher than your guys. :D

[Mr Bojangles]

Pats fans are funny. :laugh:

They want us to be scared of their receiving corp and ashamed of our DBs. :laugh:

Idiots.

I bet you felt that exact same way the past couple of seasons, too!

How'd that work out, Rocky?

[Poet]

Sounds like you're still upset about the drubbing NE laid on your team, and the fact that our guys were tougher than your guys. :D

The Patriots are not known for their toughness.

[WTE]

The Patriots are not known for their toughness.

Brandon Spikes is to toughness what King is to Big Beef Burrito.

[Mr Bojangles]

The Patriots are not known for their toughness.

Oh, ok. If you say so.

But don't tell me....tell Bill Polian. He was the one who whined to the League about his fragile little receivers getting manhandled by Ty Law the NE secondary, and got Rules changed regarding contact. And Rodney.....yep, he was real fairy. Logan Mankins.....a ballet instructor in the off season. :rolleyes:

You really love to troll, huh?

By the way, I have an aggravating problem with my computer and its cursor. :mad: Jumps all over the place so I have to go back when I'm typing, to straighten out teach sentence, it seems....time consuming, so that by the time I finish putting together a lengthy response and try to post it, the system has logged me out. Then, instead of posting the comment when I log back in, it all gets lost in cyber space. I have now lost three or four debate-ending responses to some of your comments, which would have changed your mind and brought you immediately over to my POV. :D

[chazoe60]

I see Mr BlowJob is back whining again. Wow, I'm sure glad he joined the forum. He brings so much to the table. :rolleyes:

[Mr Bojangles]

I see Mr BlowJob is back whining again. Wow, I'm sure glad he joined the forum. He brings so much to the table. :rolleyes:

It's all relative, Cheezey.


I mean, compared to you, Oprah would sound like John Madden.



Let me know if you can't figure out the analogy...i'm here to help.

[chazoe60]

Internet tough guy posting nonsense again? Come on Mr. BlowJob, you can do better than that. Okay, you probably can't. The Oprah:Madden analogy is the peak of your piss-poor smack.

[Mr Bojangles]

Internet tough guy posting nonsense again? Come on Mr. BlowJob, you can do better than that. Okay, you probably can't. The Oprah:Madden analogy is the peak of your piss-poor smack.

OK, if you say so.


I wouldn't want to find myself on the wrong side of the Forum Enforcer!

[Dapper Dan]

Oh, ok. If you say so.

But don't tell me....tell Bill Polian. He was the one who whined to the League about his fragile little receivers getting manhandled by Ty Law the NE secondary, and got Rules changed regarding contact. And Rodney.....yep, he was real fairy. Logan Mankins.....a ballet instructor in the off season. :rolleyes:

You really love to troll, huh?

By the way, I have an aggravating problem with my computer and its cursor. :mad: Jumps all over the place so I have to go back when I'm typing, to straighten out teach sentence, it seems....time consuming, so that by the time I finish putting together a lengthy response and try to post it, the system has logged me out. Then, instead of posting the comment when I log back in, it all gets lost in cyber space. I have now lost three or four debate-ending responses to some of your comments, which would have changed your mind and brought you immediately over to my POV. :D

Are you talking about Rodney Harrison? The guy who's career was ended by a weak little diabetic.

[Mr Bojangles]

Internet tough guy posting nonsense again? Come on Mr. BlowJob, you can do better than that. Okay, you probably can't. The Oprah:Madden analogy is the peak of your piss-poor smack.

Another friendly tip.....lose that silly avatar.

It's hard to discern whether you're holding a Glock or your boyfriends nutsack in that image. I mean, look closely....is that a gun or his erection?

Do that, and tone down the tough guy rhetoric, and I bet in no time, you'd cease to be the butt of everyone's jokes.

[chazoe60]

Another friendly tip.....lose that silly avatar.

It's hard to discern whether you're holding a Glock or your boyfriends nutsack in that image. I mean, look closely....is that a gun or his erection?

Do that, and tone down the tough guy rhetoric, and I bet in no time, you'd cease to be the butt of everyone's jokes.


I'm the butt of everyone's jokes? You're too funny man.


Why don't you tell us a little about yourself. Who is Mr. Bojangles?

[MNPatsFan]

You did?

Where?Well if you had been reading my posts you would have seen, but here is a link to one of my posts where I identify 5 CBs whom I believe were better last season and will be better this season than Champ:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/553859-Welker?p=1999139#post1999139

[MOtorboat]

Well if you had been reading my posts you would have seen, but here is a link to one of my posts where I identify 5 CBs whom I believe were better last season and will be better this season than Champ:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/553859-Welker?p=1999139#post1999139

Right, I'm well aware of the "opinion" part. I was looking for the "evidence" part.

[Poet]

Oh, ok. If you say so.

But don't tell me....tell Bill Polian. He was the one who whined to the League about his fragile little receivers getting manhandled by Ty Law the NE secondary, and got Rules changed regarding contact. And Rodney.....yep, he was real fairy. Logan Mankins.....a ballet instructor in the off season. :rolleyes:

You really love to troll, huh?

By the way, I have an aggravating problem with my computer and its cursor. :mad: Jumps all over the place so I have to go back when I'm typing, to straighten out teach sentence, it seems....time consuming, so that by the time I finish putting together a lengthy response and try to post it, the system has logged me out. Then, instead of posting the comment when I log back in, it all gets lost in cyber space. I have now lost three or four debate-ending responses to some of your comments, which would have changed your mind and brought you immediately over to my POV. :D

You come onto this site just to take this beating.:D

[WTE]

You come onto this site just to take this beating.:D

Why do posters who hate the Patriots and hate Pats fans go out of their way to come to the smack forum and read every single post in every single Patriots thread?

[Poet]

Why do posters who hate the Patriots and hate Pats fans go out of their way to come to the smack forum and read every single post in every single Patriots thread?

Because the board is dead and I like picking on retards.

[slim]

Why do posters who hate the Patriots and hate Pats fans go out of their way to come to the smack forum and read every single post in every single Patriots thread?

I think the better question is why are there so many Pat fans here?

[Poet]

I think the better question is why are there so many Pat fans here?

They hate Peyton Manning. It makes them very upset that people like Manning more than Brady, and that a lot of people think Manning was the better QB as well.

[slim]

They hate Peyton Manning. It makes them very upset that people like Manning more than Brady, and that a lot of people think Manning was the better QB as well.

Most of them were here before Manning :noidea:

Personally, I think it’s my charming personality that draws them in.

[NightTrainLayne]

Did I mention the Duck Nachos from Wes Welker's?

They were absolutely delicious, but a relatively small portion for a $10 appetizer plate.

[slim]

Did I mention the Duck Nachos from Wes Welker's?

They were absolutely delicious, but a relatively small portion for a $10 appetizer plate.

I've never heard of such a thing. I do like duck though.

[Poet]

Most of them were here before Manning :noidea:

Personally, I think it’s my charming personality that draws them in.

Oh, I'm referring to the new ones.

Now that I think about it, why the **** am I here?

[slim]

Oh, I'm referring to the new ones.

Now that I think about it, why the **** am I here?

I don't know. But I'm glad you are.

[Poet]

I don't know. But I'm glad you are.

I've been spending more time on a Bengals site.

I think I need to go home. I miss my own kind.

[slim]

I've been spending more time on a Bengals site.

I think I need to go home. I miss my own kind.

Well, you gotta do what makes you happy.

Do you like duck?

[Poet]

Well, you gotta do what makes you happy.

Do you like duck?

I've never had it. I've heard it's greasy.

[slim]

I've never had it. I've heard it's greasy.

Yeah, that's what makes it good.

[Poet]

Yeah, that's what makes it good.

That's what I figured.