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BroncoWave
07-05-2013, 12:14 PM
Article on ESPN today...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9448961/nfl-denver-broncos-super-bowl-bust


ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- The best way to measure Peyton Manning's impact on the Denver Broncos this offseason was by what didn't happen. There was no repeat of his 2012 arrival in Denver. Younger teammates weren't awed when he first walked into the building for workouts. There wasn't giddy anticipation when Manning tossed perfectly thrown passes in practice. There also was no mystery about whether he could survive a full season with a surgically repaired neck. "Everything is different now," said Broncos head coach John Fox. "Back then you didn't know for certain what he could do."

After Denver won the AFC West with a 13-3 record and earned the top seed in last year's playoffs, there is only one question left for Manning to answer this season: Can he actually lead the Broncos to their first Super Bowl win since the 1998 season? At first glance, there should be little doubt about Denver's viability. No AFC team has more talent then the group Manning will lead this fall. The issue, however, is whether the Broncos can avoid the heartbreak that plagued them at the end of last season.

BroncoNut
07-05-2013, 12:43 PM
pretty much.

The Glue Factory
07-05-2013, 03:01 PM
fluff piece to fill space. At this point in the season I wouldn't call any teams easy. I'm sure a lot of teams thought Denver would be easier than they were. Now we're one of the hardest. I don't buy it either way, but look forward to a very entertaining season which should include the post season.

Tebowtime2011
07-05-2013, 04:43 PM
Super bowl or bust for every team that made playoffs last year.

BroncoWave
07-05-2013, 04:45 PM
Super bowl or bust for every team that made playoffs last year.

:lol: Wut? I don't think too many Colts, Bengals, or Redskins fans are expecting Super Bowl runs this year. Plus, those types of teams (along with SF and Seattle) all have pretty young nuclei that will be contenders for years to come. Denver is running out of years to win one with Manning. I would say it's more of a "win or bust" mentality for us than for other teams.

Ravage!!!
07-05-2013, 05:35 PM
I don't think its more of a "win or bust" with us than anyone. I guess if you feel that our team is purely built to win now, despite having a young nucleus of players at the skill positions, then yes. But Manning isn't going to be around for just 1 more year.

Do I EXPECT the Super Bowl? No. I think you would have to be pretty damned foolish to "expect" a Super Bowl.

Do I think that the Broncos have done a fantastic job of giving themselves a great chance at making a run..... absolutely.

But to some, the NFL Season is a tournament that only has 1 winner in the end. THus, every season that you don't win the Super Bowl is considered a 'failure' by many. I think that is a pretty ridiculous perspective, but I think that people that feel if we don't win the Super Bowl with Manning that the season...or the hiring of Manning... was a "bust" is pretty ridiculous as well.

Simple Jaded
07-05-2013, 06:14 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9451917/nfl-title-window-closing-peyton-manning-led-denver-broncos

"But based on the roster, the protection for the QB and who that QB is, there's a reason to think "win now" could be a good phrase to recycle for a few years".

Denver's "window" is the biggest cliche in sports right now.

BroncoWave
07-05-2013, 06:16 PM
We have no idea how good Brock will be. You are pretty much as good as your starting QB in the NFL. If we don't win a title with Manning, who knows when we will have a great QB again? I'm not saying we will suddenly suck once we lose him, but compared to teams with great young QBs, I'd say Denver might have a bit more urgency to win one than other teams right now.

SR
07-05-2013, 06:25 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9451917/nfl-title-window-closing-peyton-manning-led-denver-broncos

"But based on the roster, the protection for the QB and who that QB is, there's a reason to think "win now" could be a good phrase to recycle for a few years".

Denver's "window" is the biggest cliche in sports right now.

Obviously no one that doesn't have an insider membership can read that...

Simple Jaded
07-05-2013, 06:26 PM
Manning's contract runs past Osweiler's contract and the Broncos will thank their lucky stars for every season they get out of him. I can see it, if Denver doesn't win it all this year a lot of fans are gonna go full-retard Chicken Little, but I just don't see the Broncos throwing in the towel so easy.

Simple Jaded
07-05-2013, 06:27 PM
Obviously no one that doesn't have an insider membership can read that...
I thought we can get in trouble for posting entire article?

SR
07-05-2013, 06:29 PM
I thought we can get in trouble for posting entire article?

I meant your link...it was to ESPN INsider, which requires a paid membership. I was just pointing out that regular folks that don't have that membership will not be able to read the article in that link.

SR
07-05-2013, 06:30 PM
Manning's contract runs past Osweiler's contract and the Broncos will thank their lucky stars for every season they get out of him. I can see it, if Denver doesn't win it all this year a lot of fans are gonna go full-retard Chicken Little, but I just don't see the Broncos throwing in the towel so easy.

Agreed. I think Manning plays out his contract regardless of if/when he wins another Super Bowl, health willing of course. But anyone who thinks Peyton isn't physically capable of playing 3-4 more years of ball obviously didn't see him play last season.

Simple Jaded
07-05-2013, 06:32 PM
I meant your link...it was to ESPN INsider, which requires a paid membership. I was just pointing out that regular folks that don't have that membership will not be able to read the article in that link.


The 2012 team was the seventh-oldest in the league based on snap-weighted age (a Football Outsiders measure), and it didn't get any younger with the additions of players like Wes Welker and Dan Koppen. Peyton Manning is 37, Champ Bailey is 35, and after a somewhat reserved approach to finding immediate help in the 2012 NFL draft, John Elway went hard after players in the 2013 draft who could help immediately. Even the rookies are seasoned. Sylvester Williams is 24 and will start right away at defensive tackle. Montee Ball carried the ball a hair under 100,000 times at Wisconsin and was drafted as a potential Week 1 starter. During the draft, ESPN and other network hosts were ready when Ball was picked. "Any concern about all that wear and tear on Ball's legs?" they asked. "Sure," analysts said. "But why should Denver be concerned when they're the NFL's ultimate win-now team?"

You could imagine an ad agency using Jack Bauer to sell tickets for the season. Set the music, cut to images of Manning dropping back, then Bailey backpedaling, finally a John Fox grimace as he looks up at a clock ticking down. "Come see your 2013 Broncos," says Jack, wincing as he scales Invesco Field stairs. "Because we're running (TICK-TOCK) … out of (TICK-TOCK) … time! (KABOOM)." Cue the scoreboard exploding.

This is the narrative, but is it a fair one?


Maybe not. When you look closer at the Broncos, there's reason to believe Jack Bauer won't be needed for a few years. The Broncos might be old in places, but in many ways they're like any other potential Super Bowl contender -- built around a QB -- and they'll be pretty good as long as that QB is healthy. His age notwithstanding, Manning could be healthy for a while.

Let's take a look.

Start with that issue of roster age. While Manning is old, aside from he and Bailey, Denver is no older than any other average NFL team. Last year, Denver's No. 2-ranked scoring offense was an average of 28.3 years old based on snap-weighted age, which simply measures how old the team on the field was based on total snaps played. But if you replaced Manning, the offense was 27.5, or within a few months of league average. Replace Willis McGahee with Ball, and Denver is suddenly younger than average. Even the addition of Welker doesn't make the Broncos older, not when he replaces 37-year-old Brandon Stokley. And in perhaps the most critical offensive area for Denver not named Manning -- his offensive line -- the Broncos are plenty young. If J.D. Walton beats out Koppen at center, the Broncos should have a Week 1 starting O-line with players aged 26, 26, 26, 26 and 25. And that could be the best line in the NFL.

A similar theme follows the defense. Last year, Denver was the NFL's fourth-stingiest defense to score on. Bailey was exceptional in his age-34 season, but replace him with an average-age NFL CB, and the defense is suddenly an average of 26.3 years old based on snaps, or the NFL's 24th-oldest defense of 2012.

Denver doesn't really have an "old" roster. Ultimately, if we're talking about Denver's roster age as somehow different from other teams', we're really just using language any amateur codebreaker could figure out. "Aren't you guys just really talking about the quarterback?"

Well, yeah. And a smart critic would note that it's a fair point to make: Why exclude Manning from the average age when you're talking about the most important player on the roster? Why evaluate the car and act like the age of the engine isn't a huge deal? It's a fair point, but the fact is the Manning engine could be fine for several years to come, keeping the window wide open.

Start with that offensive line. Denver was a lock for the best pass-blocking team in the NFL last season, and it allowed an adjusted sack rate of just 4.2 percent. With the addition of Louis Vasquez, it actually has gotten better at right guard. The group was above average as a run-blocking unit in 2012, but don't be surprised if it looks better in 2013 with Ball picking up a lot of the carries McGahee was getting. McGahee created just 13 missed tackles on 167 carries last season, which is well south of "elusive" on a standard atlas. Denver's offensive line should be among the best -- if not the best -- in the NFL in 2013, and not just because it protects. The running game should improve as well.

That's point No. 1 in Manning's favor. Point No. 2 is Manning himself. It's possible that no QB will be better protected than Manning, which goes hand in hand with the fact that no QB does a better job of protecting himself.

Consider this: According to ESPN Stats & Information, Manning got hit while throwing a total of 15 times last year, or less than once per game. He was sacked 21 total times, but watch the tape and you'll see the more comfortable he got, the more in total command of Denver's offense, the less he got hit. The ball started coming out quicker, and defenses couldn't create pressure. In three of Denver's final five regular-season games, he didn't get sacked once.

Manning was always hard to get to, and it could get even worse. In 2012, Manning averaged 2.50 seconds to throw, according to Pro Football Focus. Only one QB got the ball out faster, on average. That was Tom Brady at 2.47 seconds. Now, consider that Brady's top quick-throw target -- Welker -- is now going to be Manning's. Also consider that Manning will have a full season of rapport built in with Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker. Consider that he'll be healthier. And this all coming the season after he was already the hardest NFL QB to pressure. PFF's numbers show Manning saw any form of pressure on less than 20 percent of dropbacks, lowest in the NFL.

As Elway told us at the NFL combine earlier this offseason, "I think he exceeded expectations. Now that I know what he had to go through and the things that he had to overcome with that neck, not so much physically, but mentally, he did a tremendous job in the way he worked at it. So when I say he met, I should probably rephrase that and say he exceeded that. But I'm looking forward to next year, too. I think he's just going to continue to get better."

Elway isn't just talking about 2013, either. Manning's contract now takes him through 2016, and he seems perfectly equipped to see it through at a high level. The reality of Manning is that no QB seems better equipped to keep Denver's window wide open and his health intact, because no QB does a better job of eliminating the consequences of football, which is getting hit. Denver might face a win-now season in 2013, but that should only be because the Broncos know they're capable of winning it all right now.

But based on the roster, the protection for the QB and who that QB is, there's a reason to think "win now" could be a good phrase to recycle for a few years. The tick-tock can wait.

SR
07-05-2013, 06:34 PM
I read it when I clicked your link...I have said Insider membership ;)

Simple Jaded
07-05-2013, 06:58 PM
I read it when I clicked your link...I have said Insider membership ;)

I'm still gonna blame you when I get in trouble, tho.

BroncoWave
07-05-2013, 06:59 PM
For the record I never said Denver should panic or blow it up if we don't win it with Manning. And I never said we won't contend after he leaves. I just think of all the major contenders (along with NE maybe) we have the smallest window. You can call it a "cliche" all you want, but that doesn't make the point less true. If you look at most of the other big contenders, they all have pretty good young QBs who will be around for a while. I'm not saying we won't replace Manning with a good young QB, but we just don't know that right now. Yes we have a good core of young talent, but if we don't supplement it with a good QB after Manning leaves, we won't be a top tier team.

And I won't at all consider it a failure if we don't get a ring with Manning as they playoffs are so fluky. It will be disappointing, but life goes on.

SR
07-05-2013, 07:10 PM
I'm still gonna blame you when I get in trouble, tho.

I'm okay with that

Tebowtime2011
07-06-2013, 02:33 AM
Super bowl or bust for every team that made playoffs last year.

:lol: Wut? I don't think too many Colts, Bengals, or Redskins fans are expecting Super Bowl runs this year. Plus, those types of teams (along with SF and Seattle) all have pretty young nuclei that will be contenders for years to come. Denver is running out of years to win one with Manning. I would say it's more of a "win or bust" mentality for us than for other teams. What is the point of an nfl season? To go to the superbowl and win and if your already made playoffs there is no point to make playoffs and lose again and not consider that season a bust.

Dzone
07-06-2013, 02:49 AM
I dont have insider membership. Thanks for posting it.

OrangeHoof
07-06-2013, 09:35 AM
Why does nobody talk about Brady's window?

BroncoJoe
07-06-2013, 09:45 AM
Why does nobody talk about Brady's window?

Because it's closed.

badda bing!

BroncoWave
07-06-2013, 12:16 PM
Why does nobody talk about Brady's window?

Probably because he already has 3 rings with the Pats, so his legacy with the Pats is long past secure, even if he never wins another one. That, and the media still believes the myth that Belichick is some guru when it comes to free agency and the draft and they just assume he will come up with something to keep the Pats good once Brady leaves.

I think they are going to flat out SUCK when he leaves. If you look past Brady, that roster isn't exactly flooded with elite talent.

Mike
07-07-2013, 06:40 PM
Why does nobody talk about Brady's window?

Because he has been relatively injury free, has played well with crap players, and his record with Belichick is great.

nevcraw
07-08-2013, 05:28 PM
As a Bronco fan -- every year is Super Bowl or bust for me... some years you know it's not in the cards but it's always a disappointment if we are not playing for a ring.

ShaneFalco
07-08-2013, 06:52 PM
Its ok, we can always bring Tebow back.

jk ;p

but yes, i believe its Superbowl or bust this year and next. or at least AFC title game.

Simple Jaded
07-08-2013, 11:02 PM
Its ok, we can always bring Tebow back.

jk ;p

but yes, i believe its Superbowl or bust this year and next. or at least AFC title game.

So if Denver doesn't win the next two SB's it's a bust?

Dzone
07-08-2013, 11:35 PM
hell yes, we should be pissed if Denver doesnt win it all.
Harken back to what George Allen said about losing..part of you dies when you lose, maybe just your liver lol

CoachChaz
07-09-2013, 10:13 AM
If ANY team has the roster we have right now, I dont see how anything short of winning a championship can be considered a success. Seriously...as the roster stands, our only "question marks" are at RB, DT, MLB and S. But if 2 or 3 of those positions step up, then it's hard to imagine there could be any excuse at all for not winning a title.

I dont know if Championship or Bust is the best moniker to use, but I certainly have Lombardi expectations.

Ravage!!!
07-09-2013, 10:18 AM
Probably because he already has 3 rings with the Pats, so his legacy with the Pats is long past secure, even if he never wins another one. That, and the media still believes the myth that Belichick is some guru when it comes to free agency and the draft and they just assume he will come up with something to keep the Pats good once Brady leaves.

I think they are going to flat out SUCK when he leaves. If you look past Brady, that roster isn't exactly flooded with elite talent.

I bet Belicheck retires when Brady does. Why wouldn't he? His legacy was wrapped around Brady's play, and he knows it. Just like Knoll, just like Landry, just like Walsh, just like Johnson... and just like others......... the QB is the key piece to building your seat into the HoF. Without Brady, I don't think Belicheck lasts long as a HC.

BroncoJoe
07-09-2013, 12:04 PM
If ANY team has the roster we have right now, I dont see how anything short of winning a championship can be considered a success. Seriously...as the roster stands, our only "question marks" are at RB, DT, MLB and S. But if 2 or 3 of those positions step up, then it's hard to imagine there could be any excuse at all for not winning a title.

I dont know if Championship or Bust is the best moniker to use, but I certainly have Lombardi expectations.


Championship or huge disappointment is accurate.

BroncoWave
07-09-2013, 12:14 PM
I bet Belicheck retires when Brady does. Why wouldn't he? His legacy was wrapped around Brady's play, and he knows it. Just like Knoll, just like Landry, just like Walsh, just like Johnson... and just like others......... the QB is the key piece to building your seat into the HoF. Without Brady, I don't think Belicheck lasts long as a HC.

Wouldn't shock me a bit. The Pats are going to fall on hard times with Brady leaves. That would be a great time for Bellichick to get out. Their lack of recent success in the draft and free agency is going to leave that cupboard pretty bare when Brady leaves.

Joel
07-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Agreed. I think Manning plays out his contract regardless of if/when he wins another Super Bowl, health willing of course. But anyone who thinks Peyton isn't physically capable of playing 3-4 more years of ball obviously didn't see him play last season.
He turned 37 in March, so he'll be 39 when (if) he starts his final contract TC. That's a year older than Elway when he became the oldest starting QB to win a SB, a year younger than Favre when he became the oldest starting QB to win a playoff game. Perhaps as importantly, he's from New Orleans, played all his pro home games in a dome till last year and has NEVER won a playoff game when the temp was <40° (Mile High is routinely well below freezing in January.) If he doesn't win it all now, on a team stacked with talent, he'll have to wonder if it's worth sticking around knowing he may STILL never get another ring.

This could well be his last year either way: If we don't win it all there may not be enough love of Monday soreness left to keep him playing; if we do he may want to go out on top with nothing left to prove.

I can't see him playing beyond next season regardless though. I've been wrong often enough before, and surely will be again, but our window of opportunity (and Champs in particular) is closing rapidly.


I bet Belicheck retires when Brady does. Why wouldn't he? His legacy was wrapped around Brady's play, and he knows it. Just like Knoll, just like Landry, just like Walsh, just like Johnson... and just like others......... the QB is the key piece to building your seat into the HoF. Without Brady, I don't think Belicheck lasts long as a HC.
That's going a bit far in several respects, IMHO. I'm not convinced Brady was the most vital Cheatriot even when they were winning Super Bowls (that dubious distinction was probably Steve Scarnecchias.) Bellichicks strength in his best days was a D that's since gone from amazing to amusing, and he's living on borrowed time, Brady or no Brady. Much the same applies to those other coaches:

Chuck Knolls QB was no wonder even in his prime, but the Steel Curtain, Franco Harris and John Stallworth carried him to four titles even if he can't spell "cat" if spotted the "c" and "a."

Landry didn't ride Dandy Don or Roger the Dodger (much less Craig Morton) to Canton, but coached all three in NFCCGs, and two in SBs. The Doomsday D only gave up 3 points in the second one, and Drew Pearson, Bob Hayes, Calvin Hill, Dan Reeves each did their part even before Staubach left the Navy.

Walsh may be best remembered for Montana, but SHOULD be remembered for developing the West Coast Offense to maximize Virgil Carters brains, mobility and accuracy while minimizing his weak arm. Walsh also traded for the HoFer who replaced Montana and won a Super Bowl of his own under Siefert. I can't stand the WCO, but also can't deny Walshs genius was far greater than drafting Montana.

Likewise, Jimmy Johnson didn't get his Super Bowls from Aikman alone; the core of those teams was Emmitt, the offensive line and a D as brutal as the Doomsday (the Triplets were quite subdued in the last Cowboys Super Bowl, a defensive tour de force by both teams that Dallas won with multiple interceptions of the QB with the lowest career Int rate in NFL history.) At least for now, Johnson's not in Canton either.

botsy
07-22-2013, 08:45 PM
the broncos will be in the super bowl this year! to bad its in new york city. who came up with that genius idea? a cold weather super bowl? brilliant, but no matter broncos will win it!

Dzone
07-22-2013, 09:44 PM
the broncos will be in the super bowl this year! to bad its in new york city. who came up with that genius idea? a cold weather super bowl? brilliant, but no matter broncos will win it!
good first post

Joel
07-23-2013, 03:04 PM
the broncos will be in the super bowl this year! to bad its in new york city. who came up with that genius idea? a cold weather super bowl? brilliant, but no matter broncos will win it!
An accountants, because the "New Meadowlands" is barely three years old, so it has all the latest bells and whistles the NFL wants for people who can afford Super Bowl tickets. It's getting to the point hosting a Super Bowl is another reason to build a new stadium, but in this case it has all the problems you cite: An outdoor stadium in NYC in February. After the rain-drenched comedy of errors that was SB XLI I thought we'd never see another outdoor SB, let alone in a cold climate, but the NFL's all about money now, so shelling out half a billion dollars for a skybox-packed stadium and HD jumbotron "earns" a Super Bowl.