Knowshon still having knee issues

[Davii]

Moreno had a stem-cell procedure done on his troublesome knee this year and has been limited in the Broncos' offseason work.
"He's coming along," coach John Fox said. "We're going to be very cautious. When the doctors give him the full-go go-ahead, he'll be doing everything."

Read more: Denver Broncos running back Knowshon Moreno still not good to go - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23365871/denver-broncos-running-back-knowshon-moreno-still-not#ixzz2V2CW4ACI
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I hope his knee heals up quick, he needs it to in order to be on this roster. There's not a lot of room at the inn at the HB position right now. Then again, Willie skipping OTAs doesn't put him in a good spot. I don't think both KnoMo and McGahee make the team, just one.

Also, this stem cell thing, I don't know anything about it. Anyone know anything about stem cell knee surgery?

Link to article about KnoMo's knee. (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23365871/denver-broncos-running-back-knowshon-moreno-still-not)

[Simple Jaded]

I think if Moreno made it thru the season healthy Willis McGahee would already be gone. Draft Charles Sims and cut them both.

[Dapper Dan]

omg. he sux. cut him alredy.

[TXBRONC]

omg. he sux. cut him alredy.

There is good chance he gets cut DB being a smart ass doesn't change the reality of the situation.

It's been speculated on months that either McGahee or Moreno is going get cut.

[Dapper Dan]

There is good chance he gets cut DB being a smart ass doesn't change the reality of the situation.

It's been speculated on months that either McGahee or Moreno is going get cut.

Well, yeah. We have too many runningbacks. Since Moreno ended the last season injured, it should be no surprise that he's having his knee worked on. Personally, if I had to pick one or the other, I'd get rid of McGahee.

What IS an interesting story is McGahee skipping OTAs. I didn't know about that. And the fact that this surgery is some sort of stem cell thing. Which is probably what interested Davii. It would be amazing if they had some sort of break through.

[Northman]

I think i would almost be on board with what Jaded said. McGahee is more productive but age (and fumbling woes) are a major issue. Knowshon is still young but has been injury prone and not reliable. Might be best to just part ways with both and sign another guy to back up Ball and Hillman.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Buh bye.

[Chef Zambini]

I hope montee will allow us to forget all about MK and W=Mc.
I wish them both well, but glad we wont have to rely on either.

[SoCalImport]

I found good articles on Stem cells being used to treat arthritic knees and to repair cartilage damage. Nothing about them being used to help in recovery from an ACL surgery thought. I think the basic idea is the same though. Stem Cells can be used to grow/help grow new healthy tissue of almost any kind IIRC.

[Bosco]

He was participating in individual drills, just not team activities, so he's probably not too far off. I'm sure he'll get healed up and be a huge part of our offense in 2013.

[TXBRONC]

Well, yeah. We have too many runningbacks. Since Moreno ended the last season injured, it should be no surprise that he's having his knee worked on. Personally, if I had to pick one or the other, I'd get rid of McGahee.

What IS an interesting story is McGahee skipping OTAs. I didn't know about that. And the fact that this surgery is some sort of stem cell thing. Which is probably what interested Davii. It would be amazing if they had some sort of break through.

If Moreno. can get healthy I wouldn't be surprised if became the odds on favorite stay of course he would also have to have a solid camp.

[TXBRONC]

He was participating in individual drills, just not team activities, so he's probably not too far off. I'm sure he'll get healed up and be a huge part of our offense in 2013.

If he stays I'm not sure that he'll have huge part in the offense being the 3rd back.

[Bosco]

If he stays I'm not sure that he'll have huge part in the offense being the 3rd back.

Moreno is the best back on team when healthy, and our offense really picked up when McGahee went down and Moreno came into the line up and offered great pass blocking as well as great pass catching ability for a running back.

Assuming he is healthy, He'll be in a 1A/1B type role with Montee and Hillman being the change of pace back and McGahee looking for a job.

[TXBRONC]

Moreno is the best back on team when healthy, and our offense really picked up when McGahee went down and Moreno came into the line up and offered great pass blocking as well as great pass catching ability for a running back.

Assuming he is healthy, He'll be in a 1A/1B type role with Montee and Hillman being the change of pace back and McGahee looking for a job.

That doesn't appear to be accurate. According to what's been reported Fox is looking to use Hillman more in the offense. As far as Moreno and his play last year well I take into consideration that it was well past the midway point in the season.

[tomjonesrocks]

Kinda sucks. I have been one of the biggest Moreno haters on this forum. But he -finally- shows something stepping in for McGahee and bam, hurt at the worst possible moment.

It's too bad it took "sauced" so long to figure it out--he should have been better for longer. If Denver cuts him, he's got 1-2 more league minimum contacts and its over. He was sooo lucky to even make the team last season. How soon your chances are up.

Must kind of suck having your opportunity of a lifetime when you are so young and stupid. Oh well. RBs come and RBs go.

Since he was driving a Bentley, assume he will soon be destitute.

[Timmy!]

Made of glass.

[TXBRONC]

Kinda sucks. I have been one of the biggest Moreno haters on this forum. But he -finally- shows something stepping in for McGahee and bam, hurt at the worst possible moment.

It's too bad it took "sauced" so long to figure it out--he should have been better for longer. If Denver cuts him, he's got 1-2 more league minimum contacts and its over. He was sooo lucky to even make the team last season. How soon your chances are up.

Must kind of suck having your opportunity of a lifetime when you are so young and stupid. Oh well. RBs come and RBs go.

Since he was driving a Bentley, assume he will soon be destitute.

Agreed he did fill in admirably when McGhee went down but coming back late in season surely had something do it.

If Moreno stays fine I'm sure Gase will find a way to utilize him.

[Bosco]

That doesn't appear to be accurate. According to what's been reported Fox is looking to use Hillman more in the offense. As far as Moreno and his play last year well I take into consideration that it was well past the midway point in the season.

I doubt it'd matter anyways. Neither Hillman nor McGahee are effective as receivers and Moreno is a better pass blocker than both as well.

This offense is tailor made for Moreno's skillset. Hopefully he can stay healthy and take advantage of it.

[TXBRONC]

I doubt it'd matter anyways. Neither Hillman nor McGahee are effective as receivers and Moreno is a better pass blocker than both as well.

This offense is tailor made for Moreno's skillset. Hopefully he can stay healthy and take advantage of it.

No McGahee is a solid pass blocker and he's the better runner and no the offense is not nor has it ever been tailor made for him because he still is not that good of an inside runner. He played well in McGahee's absence but to go past that is to exagerrate.

You're wrong about Hillman as a receiver he's ok and I expect he'll get better. You would do well to actually watch the game.

[Simple Jaded]

Moreno is the best back on team when healthy, and our offense really picked up when McGahee went down and Moreno came into the line up and offered great pass blocking as well as great pass catching ability for a running back.

Assuming he is healthy, He'll be in a 1A/1B type role with Montee and Hillman being the change of pace back and McGahee looking for a job.

KNOWSHON Moreno? Number 27?

[Dzone]

Knowshon, it was nice knowing you. Good luck in Oakland or San Diego

[BroncoWave]

Nothing better than overreaction to injury news in May/June. If the preseason comes around and he still isn't healthy I'll be concerned. Cutting him now would really serve no purpose. If camp comes and goes and it's clear that he's not as good an option as Montee or Hillman, then you can get rid of him.

[Simple Jaded]

Nothing better than overreaction to injury news in May/June. If the preseason comes around and he still isn't healthy I'll be concerned. Cutting him now would really serve no purpose. If camp comes and goes and it's clear that he's not as good an option as Montee or Hillman, then you can get rid of him.

Just stop.

If this were a scope for a normally dependable player it'd be an overreaction, but it just so happens to be one of the most fragile vag's in recent Broncos history.

The Broncos RB situation has just gone stale, Hillman should be the first of many personnel changes.

[BroncoWave]

Just stop.

If this were a scope for a normally dependable player it'd be an overreaction, but it just so happens to be one of the most fragile vag's in recent Broncos history.

The Broncos RB situation has just gone stale, Hillman should be the first of many personnel changes.

I made pretty much my EXACT post from this thread in a thread last season when people were screaming for Moreno to be cut before camp even started. Thankfully Elway is smarter than the average poster on here, because Moreno came up huge for us last year.

Your post is Grade A overreaction. Hillman should already go huh? He's played exactly one season in the NFL. Thank God you don't run this team. We'd get rid of every player who isn't a bona-fide star every offseason.

[TXBRONC]

I made pretty much my EXACT post from this thread in a thread last season when people were screaming for Moreno to be cut before camp even started. Thankfully Elway is smarter than the average poster on here, because Moreno came up huge for us last year.

Your post is Grade A overreaction. Hillman should already go huh? He's played exactly one season in the NFL. Thank God you don't run this team. We'd get rid of every player who isn't a bona-fide star every offseason.

I wouldn't say he came up huge but he played well in McGahee's absence. The backfield is pretty crowded so I have really hard time believing Denver will keep Moreno and McGahee.

[BroncoJoe]

My personal opinion is if we get rid of a RB, Willis is gone. Age, contract and fumblitus = bye bye.

[Ravage!!!]

Moreno is the best back on team when healthy,


Yeah.. if you don't count McGahee and Ball. He hasn't been the best back on the team since being drafted... EVER (unless the better back in front of him was injured).

[Ravage!!!]

I made pretty much my EXACT post from this thread in a thread last season when people were screaming for Moreno to be cut before camp even started. Thankfully Elway is smarter than the average poster on here, because Moreno came up huge for us last year.
And then fell to yet ANOTHER injury when we needed him the most.

[BroncoWave]

And then fell to yet ANOTHER injury when we needed him the most.

And had Elway overreacted and cut him before the season, we would have been stuck with Lance Ball and Ronnie Hillman down the stretch. Had we not had Moreno down the stretch, we probably don't finish 13-3 and get the 1 seed.

Yeah, he got hurt at an unfortunate time, but only bringing up that injury is not painting the full picture of his contribution to the team last season.

Now if we get through preseason and camp and Moreno is not looking like the guy, then I'd have no problem with Moreno getting cut. But I just don't see the point in wanting to get rid of him now because he isn't 100% healthy in June. Smart teams don't do shortsighted things like that.

[BroncoWave]

I wouldn't say he came up huge but he played well in McGahee's absence. The backfield is pretty crowded so I have really hard time believing Denver will keep Moreno and McGahee.

I also believe they won't keep both. All I'm saying is there is no point in rushing to a decision on anyone right now. Things will play themselves out after camp and the preseason.

[TXBRONC]

And had Elway overreacted and cut him before the season, we would have been stuck with Lance Ball and Ronnie Hillman down the stretch. Had we not had Moreno down the stretch, we probably don't finish 13-3 and get the 1 seed.

Yeah, he got hurt at an unfortunate time, but only bringing up that injury is not painting the full picture of his contribution to the team last season.

Now if we get through preseason and camp and Moreno is not looking like the guy, then I'd have no problem with Moreno getting cut. But I just don't see the point in wanting to get rid of him now because he isn't 100% healthy in June. Smart teams don't do shortsighted things like that.

These things don't exists in a vaccum if they had cut Moreno Elway and Fox wouldn't have stood pat. They would have replaced him with someone else. IIRC when Hester was cut by the Chargers they kept tabs on him.

[rationalfan]

two things:

- remember, mcgahee also had knee issues last year. while much of the buzz about him skipping OTAs is focused on his displeasure with the drafting of ball/no new contract, part of me suspects his rehab isn't over and that's part of the reason he's staying in miami.

- regarding the moreno hate: don't grade the guy based on the expectations of his draft status. grade him on his performance - which has been worthy of a roster spot, maybe not anything else, but certainly worthy of a roster spot.

[BroncoJoe]

two things:

- remember, mcgahee also had knee issues last year. while much of the buzz about him skipping OTAs is focused on his displeasure with the drafting of ball/no new contract, part of me suspects his rehab isn't over and that's part of the reason he's staying in miami.

- regarding the moreno hate: don't grade the guy based on the expectations of his draft status. grade him on his performance - which has been worthy of a roster spot, maybe not anything else, but certainly worthy of a roster spot.

Very rational post.

[rationalfan]

from andrew mason's twitter feed:

Interesting doings at RB today. Knowshon Moreno back in team. Ronnie Hillman looking more comfortable w/ blockers & decisive than before.

[BeefStew25]

I get a warm buzz all over my body thinking about our running backs.

[Chef Zambini]

I hope Montee is an upgrade over all of them !

[TXBRONC]

two things:

- remember, mcgahee also had knee issues last year. while much of the buzz about him skipping OTAs is focused on his displeasure with the drafting of ball/no new contract, part of me suspects his rehab isn't over and that's part of the reason he's staying in miami.

- regarding the moreno hate: don't grade the guy based on the expectations off his draft status. grade him on his performance - which has been worthy of a roster spot, maybe not anything else, but certainly worthy of a roster spot.

McGahee missing the voluntary OTAs is has nothing to do with drafting of Montee Ball. He like many ex Universty of Miami players skip voluntary workouts so that the work together in Miami. McGahee is one of those guys that doses this every year.

If Moreno stays fine. Now if Dumervil's production is considered replaceable then so is Moreno's maybe even more so.

[BroncoWave]

from andrew mason's twitter feed:

Interesting doings at RB today. Knowshon Moreno back in team.

Good thing we didn't cut him yesterday!

[Chef Zambini]

moreno justified his roster spot last year.
I hope he can do the same this year.
My hopes dreams and aspirations are with ball and gibbs, but all these RBs benefit from gibbs presence.
we have a better strength and conditioning staff...
there is hope for KM.

[LTC Pain]

McGahee missing the voluntary OTAs is has nothing to do with drafting of Montee Ball. He like many ex Universty of Miami players skip voluntary workouts so that the work together in Miami. McGahee is one of those guys that doses this every year.

If Moreno stays he stays fine. Now if Dumervil's production is considered replaceable then so is Moreno's maybe even more so.

Just so I'm straight. You mean that sentence like this, right? "If Moreno stays, he stays, fine."

[TXBRONC]

Just so I'm straight. You mean that sentence like this, right? "If Moreno stays, he stays, fine."

Yes and I went back and fixed it.

[LTC Pain]

Yes and I went back and fixed it.

Sorry, not trying to be a grammar Nazi. I just didn't understand what you were trying to say without experimenting with comma placement. And I agree. I'm fine if Moreno makes the roster. Some, however, will not be :(

[TXBRONC]

Sorry, not trying to be a grammar Nazi. I just didn't understand what you were trying to say without experimenting with comma placement. And I agree. I'm fine if Moreno makes the roster. Some, however, will not be :(

No need to apologize.

While fine with him staying I don't think he's a lock at this point.

[underrated29]

No McGahee is a solid pass blocker and he's the better runner and no the offense is not nor has it ever been tailor made for him because he still is not that good of an inside runner. He played well in McGahee's absence but to go past that is to exagerrate.

You're wrong about Hillman as a receiver he's ok and I expect he'll get better. You would do well to actually watch the game.

IIm not sure his post was that far fetched. Moreno has been accredited as the best pass pro back we have. He is without doubt the best receiving back we have. Possibly one of the best receivers period. Hillman though is likely to get better and he has much softer hands than mcgahee.


My personal opinion is if we get rid of a RB, Willis is gone. Age, contract and fumblitus = bye bye.

Yes, that is what it will come down to. Willis is likely gone. The FO has already said they view knowshon as a backup. Each and every year I have to shoot down the whole cut knowshon. hes worthless talk. Each and every year he stays, he performs and each and every year gets sand in his vagina.....I mean knee. Either way, he will be here and likely his last year here too.

[TXBRONC]

IIm not sure his post was that far fetched. Moreno has been accredited as the best pass pro back we have. He is without doubt the best receiving back we have. Possibly one of the best receivers period. Hillman though is likely to get better and he has much softer hands than mcgahee.



Yes, that is what it will come down to. Willis is likely gone. The FO has already said they view knowshon as a backup. Each and every year I have to shoot down the whole cut knowshon. hes worthless talk. Each and every year he stays, he performs and each and every year gets sand in his vagina.....I mean knee. Either way, he will be here and likely his last year here too.

By whom? You've posted that but I never seen article supports that. Moreno is good receiver out of the backfield but the best League wide if that's what you mean I doubt it.

If he does get cut the offense still isn't going to miss a beat.

[Simple Jaded]

Good thing we didn't cut him yesterday!

Yeah, cause who could possibly replace his thoroughly average skills?

[Simple Jaded]

two things:

- remember, mcgahee also had knee issues last year. while much of the buzz about him skipping OTAs is focused on his displeasure with the drafting of ball/no new contract, part of me suspects his rehab isn't over and that's part of the reason he's staying in miami.

- regarding the moreno hate: don't grade the guy based on the expectations of his draft status. grade him on his performance - which has been worthy of a roster spot, maybe not anything else, but certainly worthy of a roster spot.

I don't think he should be cut because he was a massive waste of a premium draft pick, I think he should be cut because he's a china doll with utterly replaceable skills.

[BroncoWave]

I don't think he should be cut because he was a massive waste of a premium draft pick, I think he should be cut because he's a china doll with utterly replaceable skills.

Just because a player is replaceable doesn't mean you have to replace him. Moreno also knows Manning's offense. You would have to teach it to the new guy.

[Simple Jaded]

I made pretty much my EXACT post from this thread in a thread last season when people were screaming for Moreno to be cut before camp even started. Thankfully Elway is smarter than the average poster on here, because Moreno came up huge for us last year.

Your post is Grade A overreaction. Hillman should already go huh? He's played exactly one season in the NFL. Thank God you don't run this team. We'd get rid of every player who isn't a bona-fide star every offseason.

Look, if I were running this team this team woulda never wasted a single draft pick on Slwoshon and your whining would not be necessary. And stop pretending that you wouldn't be defending every stupid mistake I made. While you're at it stop pretending that just about any RB with Moreno's average skills couldn't have "come up huge" for Denver (you were saying something about overreaction?).

Btw, where did I say Hillman should go?

[BroncoWave]

Look, if I were running this team this team woulda never wasted a single draft pick on Slwoshon and your whining would not be necessary. And stop pretending that you wouldn't be defending every stupid mistake I made.

Btw, where did I say Hillman should go?

Where did I defend the Moreno pick?

[Simple Jaded]

Just because a player is replaceable doesn't mean you have to replace him. Moreno also knows Manning's offense. You would have to teach it to the new guy.
It does when that player can't stay healthy and said replacements are a dime o dozen. And stop with the "he knows Mannings offense" bullshit, Lance Ball knows his offense too and is only slightly less ordinary.

[Simple Jaded]

Where did I defend the Moreno pick?

Didn't say you did, I said you'd be defending the mistakes I made, such as your defending Moreno.

[BeefStew25]

git em jaded

[BroncoWave]

Didn't say you did, I said you'd be defending the mistakes I made, such as your defending Moreno.

Where in this thread did I defend Morneo? Just because I don't think he should be cut doesn't mean I am defending him. If we get through camp and the preseason and Elway thinks he should be cut at that point, I will have no problem with it. Montee and Hillman are the future for us at RB, and Moreno is on the roster bubble.

All I have said is that it makes no sense to cut someone him in June. Despite how he has failed compared to his draft pick, he has still had his productive moments for us. There is literally no downside to letting him compete for a spot in camp. If he makes the team that's great, if not, so be it.

[Simple Jaded]

Where in this thread did I defend Morneo? Just because I don't think he should be cut doesn't mean I am defending him. If we get through camp and the preseason and Elway thinks he should be cut at that point, I will have no problem with it. Montee and Hillman are the future for us at RB, and Moreno is on the roster bubble.

All I have said is that it makes no sense to cut someone him in June. Despite how he has failed compared to his draft pick, he has still had his productive moments for us. There is literally no downside to letting him compete for a spot in camp. If he makes the team that's great, if not, so be it.

Fine, whatever you cal what you're doing you'd be doing with my stupid mistakes too.

[BroncoWave]

Fine, whatever you cal what you're doing you'd be doing with my stupid mistakes too.

The only stupid one in this conversation is the one who would just cut a player in June for no reason.

[Simple Jaded]

The only stupid one in this conversation is the one who would just cut a player in June for no reason.

I can live with that.

[BroncoWave]

Who, that is currently available, should we replace him with?

[Simple Jaded]

Who, that is currently available, should we replace him with?

I said in the original post, put in a claim on Charles Sims and cut them both. McGahee is gone either way and I never said cut Moreno just to be rid of him, though that wouldn't bother me in the least.

[BroncoWave]

I said in the original post, put in a claim on Charles Sims and cut them both. McGahee is gone either way and I never said cut Moreno just to be rid of him, though that wouldn't bother me in the least.

:lol: I'm glad John Elway is running this team.

[Bosco]

No McGahee is a solid pass blocker He's alright, about average. Moreno excels at it though.


and he's the better runner and no the offense is not nor has it ever been tailor made for him because he still is not that good of an inside runner. And this offense doesn't do much inside running, traditionally speaking. The offenses Manning has run over the years rely almost exclusively on stretch runs and draws. We saw more inside running last year which is almost certainly due to McGahee's skillset and Fox's conservative nature, but with McGahee likely on the way out/minimized role and Manning/Gase taking more control of the offense, we'll probably get away from that to a large degree.


You're wrong about Hillman as a receiver he's ok and I expect he'll get better. Right. He's "ok", serviceable, average...etc. Moreno is an excellent receiver out of the backfield.


You would do well to actually watch the game. Record and watch every single game multiple times. How many times do you watch them?

[Bosco]

By whom? You've posted that but I never seen article supports that. Moreno is good receiver out of the backfield but the best League wide if that's what you mean I doubt it.

If he does get cut the offense still isn't going to miss a beat.

He's certainly in the upper echelon. Remember his touchdown catch in the Baltimore game? How many running backs in this league do you think would have pulled off something like that? Not too many.

[TXBRONC]

He's certainly in the upper echelon. Remember his touchdown catch in the Baltimore game? How many running backs in this league do you think would have pulled off something like that? Not too many.

Upper echelon according your interpretation? That doesn't fly. You don't have proof outside of your Josh McDaniels viewpoint do you?

[TXBRONC]

Just because a player is replaceable doesn't mean you have to replace him. Moreno also knows Manning's offense. You would have to teach it to the new guy.

This is inconsistent considering what you said about Dumervil.

[TXBRONC]

He's alright, about average. Moreno excels at it though.

And this offense doesn't do much inside running, traditionally speaking. The offenses Manning has run over the years rely almost exclusively on stretch runs and draws. We saw more inside running last year which is almost certainly due to McGahee's skillset and Fox's conservative nature, but with McGahee likely on the way out/minimized role and Manning/Gase taking more control of the offense, we'll probably get away from that to a large degree.

Right. He's "ok", serviceable, average...etc. Moreno is an excellent receiver out of the backfield.

Record and watch every single game multiple times. How many times do you watch them?

I'll ignore the majority of it because it's just your opinion it's not based in fact.

I watched every single game several times and recorded all of them and that's how I know you're full of shit.

[BroncoWave]

This is inconsistent considering what you said about Dumervil.

Wait, what? Where did I ever say we HAVE to replace Dumervil? I did say the he made to much money, and that if he didn't take a pay cut then he should be replaced, but I never once said we should just replace him for the sake of replacing him. If you'll remember (which I guess you don't) I was saying I'd much rather us keep him than let him go, I just wanted it to be for less money. When we thought he had signed his new deal I was pumped.

Try not to lie to make your point.

[BroncoWave]

And one more thing, if you are going to get rid of someone, it makes WAY more sense to to it at the beginning of free agency and before the draft, so you can replace him more easily. Had the people in this thread wanting Moreno cut suggested it then, it would have had more merit. But to just outright cut someone after the draft and with no good FAs left makes just absolutely no sense.

[Mike]

I don't think he should be cut because he was a massive waste of a premium draft pick, I think he should be cut because he's a china doll with utterly replaceable skills.

He filled in a need last season and helped the team get the #1 seed (I think Denver loses some games down the stretch without him)....and whose presence was noticably missed when he went out of the game against Baltimore. Durability is certainly a factor, but I would take him over McGahee or Lance Ball in a heartbeat. And until Hillman shows that he can be a more effective blocker, I think Moreno will have a place on the team.

[TXBRONC]

Wait, what? Where did I ever say we HAVE to replace Dumervil? I did say the he made to much money, and that if he didn't take a pay cut then he should be replaced, but I never once said we should just replace him for the sake of replacing him. If you'll remember (which I guess you don't) I was saying I'd much rather us keep him than let him go, I just wanted it to be for less money. When we thought he had signed his new deal I was pumped.

Try not to lie to make your point.

I didn't lie about anything. You made it very clear it was no problem replace him.

Now with Moreno singing a different tune.

[TXBRONC]

And one more thing, if you are going to get rid of someone, it makes WAY more sense to to it at the beginning of free agency and before the draft, so you can replace him more easily. Had the people in this thread wanting Moreno cut suggested it then, it would have had more merit. But to just outright cut someone after the draft and with no good FAs left makes just absolutely no sense.

We have eight backs going camp genius do you think all of them are going to make the team? :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

Replacing a RB is the easiest position on the team to replace. It's the easiest position to play. It's why rookies play every year.

Moreno's salary is basically the ONLY thing keeping him on this team. He played in 6 games last year, and was injured AGAIN. The guy, unfortunately for him, definitely fits the "injury prone" definition. You can't count on him to remain healthy. Even last year, he was sat down off the game day roster for most of the season.

He is NOT the best runner on this team, he does NOT excel as a "fantastic" receiver out of the backfield, he does NOT have good speed, he does NOT break tackles. What does this guy excel at?

[TXBRONC]

Replacing a RB is the easiest position on the team to replace. It's the easiest position to play. It's why rookies play every year.

Moreno's salary is basically the ONLY thing keeping him on this team. He played in 6 games last year, and was injured AGAIN. The guy, unfortunately for him, definitely fits the "injury prone" definition. You can't count on him to remain healthy. Even last year, he was sat down off the game day roster for most of the season.

He is NOT the best runner on this team, he does NOT excel as a "fantastic" receiver out of the backfield, he does NOT have good speed, he does NOT break tackles. What does this guy excel at?


BTB apparently isn't aware of the fact that we have more running backs on the roster than we're going keep. He was alright with letting Dumervil go because he's replaceable but Moreno because it's way to late to replace him eventhough we're carrying eight running backs on the roster right now.

It's hypocritical but you can alway expect BTB to be inconsistent.

With respect to Jaded, they wont cut Moreno right now. He will go camp and he has pretty good chance of making the team but I don't think he's shoe in.

[Chef Zambini]

no matter how you value KM's skillset, he is undeniably ...
Un-reliable.

I have to laugh at the evaluation of "upper-escelon", sorry.
I think he had his best on field performances last year. and I think EVERYONE can agree . we were glad he was a bronco last year.
I thought he was a wasted roster spot.
I was WRONG !
this year I will allow KM the right to earn his spot again, and I will trust that gibbs and Co. will get all they can out of KM if they decide to keep him.
But I also think we are all hoping thaT MONTEE BALL is going to be our primary run threat, and he will be on the field 80 % of our offensive plays.
or rataever % TD maintained during his tenure.
KM is no longer a critical issue, he is like a back-up long snapper.

[TXBRONC]

He filled in a need last season and helped the team get the #1 seed (I think Denver loses some games down the stretch without him)....and whose presence was noticably missed when he went out of the game against Baltimore. Durability is certainly a factor, but I would take him over McGahee or Lance Ball in a heartbeat. And until Hillman shows that he can be a more effective blocker, I think Moreno will have a place on the team.

I agree he probably stays however if he doesn't we'll be fine.

[TXBRONC]

no matter how you value KM's skillset, he is undeniably ...
Un-reliable.

I have to laugh at the evaluation of "upper-echelon", sorry.
I think he had his best on field performances last year. and I think EVERYONE can agree . we were glad he was a bronco last year.
I thought he was a wasted roster spot.
I was WRONG !
this year I will allow KM the right to earn his spot again, and I will trust that gibbs and Co. will get all they can out of KM if they decide to keep him.
But I also think we are all hoping thaT MONTEE BALL is going to be our primary run threat, and he will be on the field 80 % of our offensive plays.
or rataever % TD maintained during his tenure.
KM is no longer a critical issue, he is like a back-up long snapper.

What is the world coming too I actually agree with you to some extent. :D

I agree Moreno isn't upper echelon material but I do think he'll still be with the team this year because he does have some versatility. Either McGahee or Moreno is going to get cut eventually and I were a betting man I would put my money on it being McGahee given his age, money, and the fact he's come off of a serious injury.

[Ravage!!!]

What is the world coming too I actually agree with you to some extent. :D

I agree Moreno isn't upper echelon material but I do think he'll still be with the team this year because he does have some versatility. Either McGahee or Moreno is going to get cut eventually and I were a betting man I would put my money on it being McGahee given his age, money, and the fact he's come off of a serious injury.

That's how I see it. Ball was drafted to be "the horse" in the back field. Moreno is the better blocker, but he's slow. That's where Hillman comes in. So right now, Moreno's pass protection and low salary is keeping his roster spot. But there is no way he's on the team next season.

[Chef Zambini]

The broncos must be hoping that MB can be our everydown back
(mee too )
A guy who can stay on the field and NOT restrict what PFM can or cannot do.
It may take him half a season to get there, but HIS versatility will enhance our deception and versatility.

[underrated29]

By whom? You've posted that but I never seen article supports that. Moreno is good receiver out of the backfield but the best League wide if that's what you mean I doubt it.

If he does get cut the offense still isn't going to miss a beat.


By the coaches and teammates and QB, thats who. No way, is he the best receiveing back in the league. Thats not what I meant, but I would venture to say he is probably top 10 maybe top 5. He has solid hands.


He's alright, about average. Moreno excels at it though.

And this offense doesn't do much inside running, traditionally speaking. The offenses Manning has run over the years rely almost exclusively on stretch runs and draws. We saw more inside running last year which is almost certainly due to McGahee's skillset and Fox's conservative nature, but with McGahee likely on the way out/minimized role and Manning/Gase taking more control of the offense, we'll probably get away from that to a large degree.

Right. He's "ok", serviceable, average...etc. Moreno is an excellent receiver out of the backfield.

Record and watch every single game multiple times. How many times do you watch them?


Actually, we did/do run a TON of inside run plays. It is not because of mcgahees skill set though. It is/was because Mike Mccoy is a frikin retard when it comes to calling plays. Adam Gase himself, our new OC, said mccoy basically refused to call any type of run that was not to the inside. With gase, I am sure we will see much better rush attack. It also helps that we have Montee and an improved OL and another year in the system with peyton. Still. Chalk that one up to Mcsuck.


Replacing a RB is the easiest position on the team to replace. It's the easiest position to play. It's why rookies play every year.

Moreno's salary is basically the ONLY thing keeping him on this team. He played in 6 games last year, and was injured AGAIN. The guy, unfortunately for him, definitely fits the "injury prone" definition. You can't count on him to remain healthy. Even last year, he was sat down off the game day roster for most of the season.

He is NOT the best runner on this team, he does NOT excel as a "fantastic" receiver out of the backfield, he does NOT have good speed, he does NOT break tackles. What does this guy excel at?


I agree with everything you said except for the receiver. He most definitely does excel at that. Its pretty hard to argue otherwise. In fact, Id go so far as to say youd have a better chance justifying robert Ayers as a first round stud then you would he does not excel at catching the ball.

[BroncoWave]

BTB apparently isn't aware of the fact that we have more running backs on the roster than we're going keep. He was alright with letting Dumervil go because he's replaceable but Moreno because it's way to late to replace him eventhough we're carrying eight running backs on the roster right now.

It's hypocritical but you can alway expect BTB to be inconsistent.

With respect to Jaded, they wont cut Moreno right now. He will go camp and he has pretty good chance of making the team but I don't think he's shoe in.

Do you know how to read? This is a serious question. Go back and read this thread then tell me how this post makes sense.

I flat out said in this thread that I would have no problem with McGahee or Moreno getting cut (and I expect one to go) once camp and the preseason have passed. I even said I would have no problem if Moreno were the one to go at that point.

ALL I am saying in this thread is that cutting Moreno NOW would make no sense. It would have made sense before draft/FA, and it would make sense after camp, but there would be no reason to do it NOW.

You are trying to make WAAAYYYY more of what I am saying than needs to be made of it. Try to read and understand what I'm saying instead of trying to stretch it to a level that does not exist.

[BroncoWave]

BTB apparently isn't aware of the fact that we have more running backs on the roster than we're going keep. He was alright with letting Dumervil go because he's replaceable but Moreno because it's way to late to replace him eventhough we're carrying eight running backs on the roster right now.

It's hypocritical but you can alway expect BTB to be inconsistent.

With respect to Jaded, they wont cut Moreno right now. He will go camp and he has pretty good chance of making the team but I don't think he's shoe in.

I might as well be talking to a brick wall right now. I have never in Moreno's career said he isn't replaceable. I've said in this thread multiple times that I would have no problem with Elway cutting him after camp. You are great at picking out a small part of my argument and blowing it to a proportion that doesn't exist.

I challenge you to find a single post in which I said we CAN'T EVER get rid of Moreno or McGahee.

[TXBRONC]

By the coaches and teammates and QB, thats who. No way, is he the best receiveing back in the league. Thats not what I meant, but I would venture to say he is probably top 10 maybe top 5. He has solid hands.




Actually, we did/do run a TON of inside run plays. It is not because of mcgahees skill set though. It is/was because Mike Mccoy is a frikin retard when it comes to calling plays. Adam Gase himself, our new OC, said mccoy basically refused to call any type of run that was not to the inside. With gase, I am sure we will see much better rush attack. It also helps that we have Montee and an improved OL and another year in the system with peyton. Still. Chalk that one up to Mcsuck.




I agree with everything you said except for the receiver. He most definitely does excel at that. Its pretty hard to argue otherwise. In fact, Id go so far as to say youd have a better chance justifying robert Ayers as a first round stud then you would he does not excel at catching the ball.

Really which coaches and teammates? He's top ten in the League? Do have something to back that up with besides your opinion?

You're full of it as to why we run between the tackles it has EVERYTHING to do with his skill set.

[Bosco]

Upper echelon according your interpretation? That doesn't fly. You don't have proof outside of your Josh McDaniels viewpoint do you?

What does McDaniels have to do with Moreno? McDaniels hasn't been here for almost 3 years now.


I'll ignore the majority of it because it's just your opinion it's not based in fact. I think you need to learn the definition of opinion. When I say a certain offense is run in a certain way, that's not an opinion, it's a statement of knowledge. Now you can refute/challenge that assertion, of course, and you may end up being right sometimes, but it doesn't make my claim an opinion. Now, if I said I think Manning's offense is better than Fox's offense because of whatever reason(s), that is an opinion.


I watched every single game several times and recorded all of them and that's how I know you're full of shit. Then refute my positions. You apparently love to follow me around and tell me how wrong I am, but when challenged to actually put your own body of knowledge on the table you disappear.


By the coaches and teammates and QB, thats who. No way, is he the best receiveing back in the league. Thats not what I meant, but I would venture to say he is probably top 10 maybe top 5. He has solid hands. I'd definitely put him in the top 5.


Actually, we did/do run a TON of inside run plays. It is not because of mcgahees skill set though. It is/was because Mike Mccoy is a frikin retard when it comes to calling plays. Adam Gase himself, our new OC, said mccoy basically refused to call any type of run that was not to the inside. With gase, I am sure we will see much better rush attack. It also helps that we have Montee and an improved OL and another year in the system with peyton. Still. Chalk that one up to Mcsuck.

Do you have a link for this? I believe you (never cared much for McCoy) but would love to read the whole story.

[TXBRONC]

Do you know how to read? This is a serious question. Go back and read this thread then tell me how this post makes sense.

I flat out said in this thread that I would have no problem with McGahee or Moreno getting cut (and I expect one to go) once camp and the preseason have passed. I even said I would have no problem if Moreno were the one to go at that point.

ALL I am saying in this thread is that cutting Moreno NOW would make no sense. It would have made sense before draft/FA, and it would make sense after camp, but there would be no reason to do it NOW.

You are trying to make WAAAYYYY more of what I am saying than needs to be made of it. Try to read and understand what I'm saying instead of trying to stretch it to a level that does not exist.

No need to genius. You just don't have the balls to stand by what you've said in previous threads.
Why don't you go wash the sand out of your vagina. You are being inconsistent actually you'rs a hypocrite but that's nothing for you.

Calling me liar just because you're inconsistent shows how childish you are.

[underrated29]

Really which coaches and teammates? He's top ten in the League? Do have something to back that up with besides your opinion?

You're full of it as to why we run between the tackles it has EVERYTHING to do with his skill set.


Its pretty widely regarded that knowshon is our best in pass pro and receiving. I think it would harder to find someone who does not think that. (someone being media, coaches, teammates etc)

As for his hands, he aboslutely is top 10 in the league. Perhaps top 5. Here are guys imo who are as good or better than he is....Ray rice, Doug Martin, lesean mccoy, charles, forte,reg bush, mjd....Here are guys he is better at catching- gore, bradshaw, mathews, mcfadden, cj3k, lynch, spiller. And then there are the rest who are just decent at catching, not bad not good, Willis, AD, murray, leshoure, and all the rest of the backs in the league.

Knowshons yards per catch should be pretty obvious as to his catching ability. I dont know what it is, but I know it was close to 10 yards per catch. I doubt there are many RBs who get as many reps as he does that have those kinds of numbers.

It doesnt have EVERYTHING to do with it at all. Remember knowshons rookie year. All we did was run it right up the gut. Knowshon was the starter that year. Only missed like 1 game, if that I believe. Knowshons skillset is not to do it but we did it. We had no mcgahee. We had bucky who was not a pounder, who was not a starter, but a split reps with knowshon guy. We still ran up the gut all the time. The run game has not changed and that is because mccoy was the one running the show. Expect it to Change this year- with or without Mcgahee.


What does McDaniels have to do with Moreno? McDaniels hasn't been here for almost 3 years now.

I think you need to learn the definition of opinion. When I say a certain offense is run in a certain way, that's not an opinion, it's a statement of knowledge. Now you can refute/challenge that assertion, of course, and you may end up being right sometimes, but it doesn't make my claim an opinion. Now, if I said I think Manning's offense is better than Fox's offense because of whatever reason(s), that is an opinion.

Then refute my positions. You apparently love to follow me around and tell me how wrong I am, but when challenged to actually put your own body of knowledge on the table you disappear.

I'd definitely put him in the top 5.



Do you have a link for this? I believe you (never cared much for McCoy) but would love to read the whole story.



I dont man. It was in one of Gases first interview though. The one where he talks about speeding up the tempo of the offense. He mentions how mccoy did some things and basically refused to run anything but to the inside.

[TXBRONC]

Its pretty widely regarded that knowshon is our best in pass pro and receiving. I think it would harder to find someone who does not think that. (someone being media, coaches, teammates etc)

As for his hands, he aboslutely is top 10 in the league. Perhaps top 5. Here are guys imo who are as good or better than he is....Ray rice, Doug Martin, lesean mccoy, charles, forte,reg bush, mjd....Here are guys he is better at catching- gore, bradshaw, mathews, mcfadden, cj3k, lynch, spiller. And then there are the rest who are just decent at catching, not bad not good, Willis, AD, murray, leshoure, and all the rest of the backs in the league.

Knowshons yards per catch should be pretty obvious as to his catching ability. I dont know what it is, but I know it was close to 10 yards per catch. I doubt there are many RBs who get as many reps as he does that have those kinds of numbers.


It doesnt have EVERYTHING to do with it at all. Remember knowshons rookie year. All we did was run it right up the gut. Knowshon was the starter that year. Only missed like 1 game, if that I believe. Knowshons skillset is not to do it but we did it. We had no mcgahee. We had bucky who was not a pounder, who was not a starter, but a split reps with knowshon guy. We still ran up the gut all the time. The run game has not changed and that is because mccoy was the one running the show. Expect it to Change this year- with or without Mcgahee.





I dont man. It was in one of Gases first interview though. The one where he talks about speeding up the tempo of the offense. He mentions how mccoy did some things and basically refused to run anything but to the inside.

So you name can't name one coach or player that said he has the best hands on team. If he's top 10 prove it. There has to be more just your opinion.

You tend forget that McDaniels was calling all the plays. In McDaniels opening press conference he said he be the one calling the plays. So your pissing and moaning about McCoy during McDaniels tenure is misplaced.

[rationalfan]

That's how I see it. Ball was drafted to be "the horse" in the back field. Moreno is the better blocker, but he's slow. That's where Hillman comes in. So right now, Moreno's pass protection and low salary is keeping his roster spot. But there is no way he's on the team next season.

seems like i've seen this post a few times in recent years.

[Ravage!!!]

seems like i've seen this post a few times in recent years.

Yeah, but his rookie contract is about to run out. Before, people asserted he would stay because of his low salary cap cost. That, right now, is the best thing going for him. He's not a workhorse, he's was sat on the bench most of the year last season, and is injured again. He doesn't bring anything to the table that can't be replaced considering the raise that will happen with a player's second contract.

I think the "is a top pass catcher" is a WAy over the top opinion, and if it IS the case, hasn't exactly been something that keeps him on the field (not even from a "we need to dress him out" stand point). Elway drafted a guy in the third to replace him last year, and drafted a RB in the second this year to replace McGahee this year.

As much as we wanted (yes, I actually was excited when drafting Moreno) to be that exciting player out of college, he has been the definition of a let down in the NFL.

[underrated29]

So you name can't name one coach or player that said he has the best hands on team. If he's top 10 prove it. There has to be more just your opinion.

You tend forget that McDaniels was calling all the plays. In McDaniels opening press conference he said he be the one calling the plays. So your pissing and moaning about McCoy during McDaniels tenure is misplaced.



I could name a bunch, annoucers too. BUt I dont have a link to give you. If you do not believe me, since your opinion is the minority, go check it out for yourself. Or you can make a poll on here man. I bet you will be surprised as to the results, even from the guys who do not think knowshon is worth a damn.

Also, and I know you are a big big mccoy guy, I havent pissed and moaned about him in this thread at all. So easy tiger. As to it, josh did not call all the plays im sure. I know he didnt call them for the last 3 games of the season. I know that we were still calling the same inside run plays when moreno was still the starter and mcgahee was the short yardage back. I know that once moreno got hurt and mcgahee took over we still kept the same play calling.

But dont take offense to it. Go find Adam Gase word for word quote about it. It seems that your opinion is no coinciding with the ones from the front office, amigo.

[Bosco]

So you name can't name one coach or player that said he has the best hands on team. If he's top 10 prove it. There has to be more just your opinion.

Here's a couple I turned up with a quick Google search.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/spotlight.php?yr=2011&id=MoreKn00

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22081830/knowshon-morenos-pass-protection-big-part-his-move

Couple scouting reports as well.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1586

Especially liked this one.


Soft hands for the reception. Natural receiver who poses intriguing possibilities to be split out wide. Good quickness and effort as a route-runner; isn't just a threat on dump-offs in the flat or screens. Provides a pop in pass protection

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/knowshon-moreno?id=79619

...and this one.


Elite receiver out of the backfield who rarely drops passes ... Distinguished pass blocker

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1586


You tend forget that McDaniels was calling all the plays. In McDaniels opening press conference he said he be the one calling the plays. So your pissing and moaning about McCoy during McDaniels tenure is misplaced. Pretty sure he's referring to the post McDaniels era where McCoy ran the offense.

[rationalfan]

Yeah, but his rookie contract is about to run out. Before, people asserted he would stay because of his low salary cap cost. That, right now, is the best thing going for him. He's not a workhorse, he's was sat on the bench most of the year last season, and is injured again. He doesn't bring anything to the table that can't be replaced considering the raise that will happen with a player's second contract.

I think the "is a top pass catcher" is a WAy over the top opinion, and if it IS the case, hasn't exactly been something that keeps him on the field (not even from a "we need to dress him out" stand point). Elway drafted a guy in the third to replace him last year, and drafted a RB in the second this year to replace McGahee this year.

As much as we wanted (yes, I actually was excited when drafting Moreno) to be that exciting player out of college, he has been the definition of a let down in the NFL.


you're not wrong. but you're also assuming he's going to get a raise on his second contract. given he had a first round pick contract and his production hasn't been anything beyond ordinary, i don't think he gets a raise (maybe a nice signing bonus, but not the same total money).

personally, i don't think he'll be in denver next year, either. but you never know. what is certain is people have been posting about his eventual demise for years. yet, he's still on the roster.

[Dzone]

Keep Moreno until he breaks down. When he is healthy he runs hard. Keep him until he is no longer useful and then bring someone off the practice squad to take his place. Hes like those race cars that are made for only one or two races, then they are trashed. Dont feel sorry for him when it happens. Hes made a lot of money in his spotty career

[BroncoWave]

No need to genius. You just don't have the balls to stand by what you've said in previous threads.
Why don't you go wash the sand out of your vagina. You are being inconsistent actually you'rs a hypocrite but that's nothing for you.

Calling me liar just because you're inconsistent shows how childish you are.

I'm telling you exactly what I said in this thread and others. Show me these posts of mine you are claiming I made. The reason you can't do it is because they don't exist. You got caught stretching the truth about what I have said and now you deflecting instead of proving me wrong.

[TXBRONC]

I could name a bunch, annoucers too. BUt I dont have a link to give you. If you do not believe me, since your opinion is the minority, go check it out for yourself. Or you can make a poll on here man. I bet you will be surprised as to the results, even from the guys who do not think knowshon is worth a damn.

Also, and I know you are a big big mccoy guy, I havent pissed and moaned about him in this thread at all. So easy tiger. As to it, josh did not call all the plays im sure. I know he didnt call them for the last 3 games of the season. I know that we were still calling the same inside run plays when moreno was still the starter and mcgahee was the short yardage back. I know that once moreno got hurt and mcgahee took over we still kept the same play calling
But dont take offense to it. Go find Adam Gase word for word quote about it. It seems that your opinion is no coinciding with the ones from the front office, amigo.

Prove it that his teammates and coaches have said that. Taking a poll of members of this board does approve your asertion that his teammates and coaches have said. You're the one making asertion so prove it. You're the one that said McCoy was calling plays do you anything other than rhetoric? My guess is you don't. If you had such proof you would have rolled it out by now amigo.

[underrated29]

Prove it that his teammates and coaches have said that. Taking a poll of members of this board does approve your asertion that his teammates and coaches have said. You're the one making asertion so prove it. You're the one that said McCoy was calling plays do you anything other than rhetoric? My guess is you don't. If you had such proof you would have rolled it out by now amigo.



For real Tx? I am not going to go wasting my time hunting around for all kinds of quotes and interview from coaches and teamates from the past 3 years. Thats why I said, ask the other board members. Since you do not believe me, which is fine, I figured you would take the word from the other solid posters here. Like I said, and proved, his YPC is and or was 10+....Its hard to argue with that.

So I challenge you, find me 10 more RBs that currently play that have that high of a Yards per catch.


I dont understand what you are trying to say in regards to mccoy? The fact that he was calling plays or something? Clear that up please. And the proof has already been rolled out about mccoy and gase. I am sure the link to the gase interview is on DB.com....Me, since I do most of this while working I only read the texts and not watch the vids. But ive given you who said it, almost a word for word quote from them and where it is likely to be found. If you dont want to believe it- go look it up for yourself. You should know me by now that I dont make stuff up or fib to support my arguments.

[Ravage!!!]

personally, i don't think he'll be in denver next year, either. but you never know. what is certain is people have been posting about his eventual demise for years. yet, he's still on the roster.

Yes... namely because of his cheap contract. Of course he would get a raise on his second contract if he stayed with the Broncos.

[BroncoJoe]

Anyone that doesn't acknowledge Moreno's abilities as a pass catching player hasn't been paying attention. It's been his calling card since being drafted and (other than actual playing time) he's lived up to it.

[rationalfan]

Yes... namely because of his cheap contract. Of course he would get a raise on his second contract if he stayed with the Broncos.

knowshon's rookie deal: a five-year, $16.7 million contract with a $5.08 million club option for 2014. The deal includes $13.135 million guaranteed and Moreno can earn an additional $6.3 million through incentives.

there's no way the broncos, or another team give him a "raise" over that contract.

[TXBRONC]

Anyone that doesn't acknowledge Moreno's abilities as a pass catching player hasn't been paying attention. It's been his calling card since being drafted and (other than actual playing time) he's lived up to it.

Who isn't? Yes he's a good receiver but is he in the top ten in League?

[BroncoWave]

I'm telling you exactly what I said in this thread and others. Show me these posts of mine you are claiming I made. The reason you can't do it is because they don't exist. You got caught stretching the truth about what I have said and now you deflecting instead of proving me wrong.

TX, there is nothing more fun on here then when you call me out on something then run and hide when asked to back it up. It's quite comical! :lol:

[underrated29]

Who isn't? Yes he's a good receiver but is he in the top ten in League?


Yup he is.

Like I said, name 10 better than he. I dont have time to dig up stats but my guess is he is top 5 on stats.

[BroncoWave]

Can someone explain to me how it's hypocritical to say "I like Dumervil and hope we keep him, but not at his current price tag" and then say about Moreno "I like Moreno and hope we keep him, but if Elway thinks he should go after camp then that's fine tool".

Not only are those two situations not even related in any way, but I'm really not seeing any hypocrisy.

[BeefStew25]

No homo

[slim]

Know Homo?

[TXBRONC]

Yup he is.

Like I said, name 10 better than he. I dont have time to dig up stats but my guess is he is top 5 on stats.

Again prove it. You haven't yet.

[BroncoJoe]

Who isn't? Yes he's a good receiver but is he in the top ten in League?

Pure receiver? uh, no since he plays running back.

Top 10 receiving running back? I'd say absolutely.

[Bosco]

Again prove it. You haven't yet.

See, that would be an opinion (a concept you have trouble grasping, as I commented earlier) and thus, it can't really be proven. It can be supported though. For instance, it can be supported by pointing out that in 2010, Moreno was one of only five qualifying running backs who averaged 10+ yards per reception. Could also point out that his receiving statistics are pretty comparable to other running backs that are commonly accepted as elite receivers. You also have those scouting reports I posted earlier which talk about his receiving ability, some which even mention his ability to split out wide as a receiver, a skill which few other backs possess.

Regardless of whether you want to quibble about whether he is top 5, 10, 15 or whatever, I think we can all agree on a few simple positions.

- Moreno is a very good receiving back.

- Moreno is a very good pass blocker.

- Moreno is the best RB on the roster as both a receiver and pass blocker.

[BroncoWave]

Again prove it. You haven't yet.

The irony of this statement is fantastic! :lol:

[Simple Jaded]

Top 5 receiving back? Y'all are putting Slowshon in the company of Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles and Matt Forte, think about that? Having good hands doesn't make him "upper echelon", it makes him "competent". He's also considerably overrated as a pass blocker.......just completely, totally and thoroughly replaceable at every-single-thing.

I never said he will be cut, only suggested the possibility of replacing him. He's not even a starter, not sure why it's such a big deal.

[BroncoWave]

Top 5 receiving back? Y'all are putting Slowshon in the company of Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles and Matt Forte, think about that? Having good hands doesn't make him "upper echelon", it makes him "competent". He's also considerably overrated as a pass blocker.......just completely, totally and thoroughly replaceable at every-single-thing.

I never said he will be cut, only suggested the possibility of replacing him. He's not even a starter, not sure why it's such a big deal.

And my point isn't even just about Knowshon, it's about any player on our team. You can take plenty of guys into camp. No need to cut any of them until then. The times to cut players in the offseason are before the draft and during/after camp.

[Chef Zambini]

And my point isn't even just about Knowshon, it's about any player on our team. You can take plenty of guys into camp. No need to cut any of them until then. The times to cut players in the offseason are before the draft and during/after camp.or before you have to pay them a bonus.

[TXBRONC]

For real Tx? I am not going to go wasting my time hunting around for all kinds of quotes and interview from coaches and teamates from the past 3 years. Thats why I said, ask the other board members. Since you do not believe me, which is fine, I figured you would take the word from the other solid posters here. Like I said, and proved, his YPC is and or was 10+....Its hard to argue with that.

So I challenge you, find me 10 more RBs that currently play that have that high of a Yards per catch.


I dont understand what you are trying to say in regards to mccoy? The fact that he was calling plays or something? Clear that up please. And the proof has already been rolled out about mccoy and gase. I am sure the link to the gase interview is on DB.com....Me, since I do most of this while working I only read the texts and not watch the vids. But ive given you who said it, almost a word for word quote from them and where it is likely to be found. If you dont want to believe it- go look it up for yourself. You should know me by now that I dont make stuff up or fib to support my arguments.

His ypc for his career or this past season? For his career it's 8.8 and for this past season it's 8.0. Are you sure you want to run your mouth on this one? For just this past season I've already found six backs with a ypc greater than Moreno's only two of them had less receptions.

Gase was talking about this last season. During McDaniels tenure he did not call plays that's a fact.

[MOtorboat]

His ypc for his career or this past season? For his career it's 8.8 and for this past season it's 8.0. Are you sure you want to run your mouth on this one? For just this past season I've already found six backs with a ypc greater than Moreno's only two of them had less receptions.

Gase was talking about this last season. During McDaniels tenure he did not call plays that's a fact.

It was 8.0, true, which puts him sixth among running backs, ahead of Matt Forte, Ray Rice and Jacquizz Rodgers.

So, are you sure you want to dispute that there were 10 running backs with a higher YPC last season?

[TXBRONC]

It was 8.0, true, which puts him sixth among running backs, ahead of Matt Forte, Ray Rice and Jacquizz Rodgers.

So, are you sure you want to dispute that there were 10 running backs with a higher YPC last season?

I've been going through entire League and there 14 backs that are ahead of him. So yeah I'll go there with you scoop.

[MOtorboat]

Full of shit. I been going through entire League and there 13 backs that ahead of him. So yeah go there with you scoop.

Who are they?

[TXBRONC]

Who are they?

NFC

Ahmad Bradshaw 10.7

Felix Jones 10.5

Frank Gore 8.4

Marshawn Lynch 8.5

Steven Jackson 8.4

DeAngelo Williams 14.4

Jonathan Stewart 9.2

Darren Sproles 8.9

Doug Martin 9.6

AFC

C.J. Spiller 10.7

Reggie Bush 8.3

Willis McGahee 8.5

Marcel Reese 9.5

Isaac Redman 12.8

* Three of them had less reception but all of them still had more than 12 reception DeAngelo Williams (13), Jonathan Stewart (17), and Isaac Redman (19). There was also one other guy who had a higher ypc in receiver but he only had six receptions on the year.

Since the criteria was purely yards per catch he would be seventh in the Conference but that would be if Steven Ridley were included because he's the running back with only six receptions on the year.

As I've said many times he good back but top ten? No.

[TXBRONC]

or before you have to pay them a bonus.

That's something escapes BTB lots players cut just prior to camp even running backs. Apparantly BTB has never heard of this.

That said I don't think Moreno is owned a bonus and I don't see him getting cut unless his knee is just not coming around.

[underrated29]

NFC

Ahmad Bradshaw 10.7

Felix Jones 10.5

Frank Gore 8.4

Marshawn Lynch 8.5

Steven Jackson 8.4

DeAngelo Williams 14.4

Jonathan Stewart 9.2

Darren Sproles 8.9

Doug Martin 9.6

AFC

C.J. Spiller 10.7

Reggie Bush 8.3

Willis McGahee 8.5

Marcel Reese 9.5

Isaac Redman 12.8

* Three of them had less reception but all of them still had more than 12 reception DeAngelo Williams (13), Jonathan Stewart (17), and Isaac Redman (19). There was also one other guy who had a higher ypc in receiver but he only had six receptions on the year.

Since the criteria was purely yards per catch he would be seventh in the Conference but that would be if Steven Ridley were included because he's the running back with only six receptions on the year.

As I've said many times he good back but top ten? No.



Good research tx, that was just for one year. Now we need it for all three of his years. Also how many catches did knowshon have last year compared to the other players? We're they about the same or more or less? I know for a fact, that he was at or above 10. Ypc a year or two ago. Where would that place him on the list amongst these backs?


Just by looking at this list it would be 5th overall........

[Chef Zambini]

morino is definatly more productive catchiung the ball than running with it!
he is the astro-NOT. he does his best work in space.
really fellas all this concern about moreno seems pointless for the third best option amongst our RB comittee.
last year, KM justified his existence, if we keep him this year I hope he will do the same until he once again breaks down.
Bottom line, we CANT and WONT depend on KM to LEAD our run game, he is just an alternative.
all this hostility and anger seems senseless.
Like arguing about tebow vs orton.

[TXBRONC]

Good research tx, that was just for one year. Now we need it for all three of his years. Also how many catches did knowshon have last year compared to the other players? We're they about the same or more or less? I know for a fact, that he was at or above 10. Ypc a year or two ago. Where would that place him on the list amongst these backs?


Just by looking at this list it would be 5th overall........


First of you didn't say for all three year. You had an opportunity to clarify several times to now changing the criteria intelleutally dishonest. Second all but three of those backs had more receptions as I indicating in the post you quoted.

So he had one year over 10.1 bfd that still doesn't make him one best in the League. Btw Moreno's ypc for his career is 8.8.

Besides that most of backs on that list have played longer than Moreno has so chances their career numbers will be lower.

You do the work because you're the one saying how good his is.

If I felt the need I bet I can find 10 backs that would be consider better than him even if their career ypcs are lower. Now this is probably a hard concept for you but just because he his career ypc might be little still doesn't make him one of the best backs in the League.

Once again find an objective ranking that puts him in the top ten.

I've said he's good back but not one of the best in the League.

[topscribe]

They've been saying McGahee is the best back the Broncos have. I think a
healthy Moreno actually is. He has tremendous upside that, frankly, we have
yet to see. But that's the problem. The key word here is "healthy," something
Moreno hasn't yet been. On the flip side, Moreno's struggles with health is
probably the only chance McGahee has in sticking with the team. IMO.
.

[Ravage!!!]

Good research tx, that was just for one year. Now we need it for all three of his years. Also how many catches did knowshon have last year compared to the other players? We're they about the same or more or less? I know for a fact, that he was at or above 10. Ypc a year or two ago. Where would that place him on the list amongst these backs?


Just by looking at this list it would be 5th overall........

what would his best season have to do with how he compares?? I think TX was comparing stats of last season since some were saying he's a top 5 receiving back in the NFL, and he clearly wasn't.

On that list, there are only 3 that has fewer receptions for the season.. Williams, Stewart (shocking since they split) and Redman. Also, there are only 3 on the list that have fewer receptions in their career...1 being Doug Martin who was a rookie last season (other two are Stewart and Redman). But there are only 4 others on the list that have only 4 or fewer years in the NFL. Martin (obviously), Spiller (3), Reese (4), and Redman (4).

Of the five on the list that have 4 years or fewer (incuding Knowshon) three have fewer than 100 receptions total. The rookie Martin (who has 49), Redman (46), and Knowshon (97).

If we are JUST counting the players on the list, and use their BEST average per catch in a season (as you did mentioned with Knowshon above) then Knowshon would have placed 10th behind Bradshaw, Jones, Lynch, Williams, Stewart, Sproles, Spiller, Reese, and Redman. Obviously, this is 10th from just using the players on THIS list. I'm sure there are RBs throughout the NFL that might have had a single season that averaged more than KM's best season.

[Chef Zambini]

I dont care if KM averaged 20 yards a CATCH !
the best BLOCKER is going to be on the field 85% of the time.
and ANY back who then EARNS THE RIGHT to catch a pass from PFM, SHOULD be averaging ten yards per catch.

[underrated29]

what would his best season have to do with how he compares?? I think TX was comparing stats of last season since some were saying he's a top 5 receiving back in the NFL, and he clearly wasn't.

On that list, there are only 3 that has fewer receptions for the season.. Williams, Stewart (shocking since they split) and Redman. Also, there are o nly 3 on the list that have fewer receptions in their career...1 being Doug Martin who was a rookie last season (other two are Stewart and Redman). But there are only 4 others on the list that have only 4 or fewer years in the NFL. Martin (obviously), Spiller (3), Reese (4), and Redman (4).

Of the five on the list that have 4 years or fewer (incuding Knowshon) three have fewer than 100 receptions total. The rookie Martin (who has 49), Redman (46), and Knowshon (97).

If we are JUST counting the players on the list, and use their BEST average per catch in a season (as you did mentioned with Knowshon above) then Knowshon would have placed 10th behind Bradshaw, Jones, Lynch, Williams, Stewart, Sproles, Spiller, Reese, and Redman.



Ummmm because comparing his worst season (i believe) and ignoring his best season is hardly a way to validate him being or not being top 10. You cant take the worst season and draw comparisons from that Rav, honestly.

[BroncoJoe]

WTF crawled up Tx's ass?

[TXBRONC]

Ummmm because comparing his worst season (i believe) and ignoring his best season is hardly a way to validate him being or not being top 10. You cant take the worst season and draw comparisons from that Rav, honestly.

So what you're doing is taking his best as pro to draw your conclusion. That's no better.

[underrated29]

So what you're doing is taking his best as pro to draw your conclusion. That's no better.



I am pretty sure the best way to come up with an a stage is to compare multiethnic seasons.

In my response to rav, since he just wants one year, in order to get rid of outliers - one must get rid of the best and worst seasons. Not only looking at the worst

[MOtorboat]

What is a "multiethnic" season UR?

[underrated29]

I am pretty sure the best way to come up with an a stage is to compare multiethnic seasons.

In my response to rav, since he just wants one year, in order to get rid of outliers - one must get rid of the best and worst seasons. Not only looking at the worst


What is a "multiethnic" season UR?





Bahahaha!!
I was just victimized by autocorrect. It was supposed to say something like the best way to get an Average is to compare Multiple seasons. Obviously, my phone has other more important intentions.

[Ravage!!!]

Ummmm because comparing his worst season (i believe) and ignoring his best season is hardly a way to validate him being or not being top 10. You cant take the worst season and draw comparisons from that Rav, honestly.

Hence the word average. You can't simply pull out the best year that KM had and just compare it to what everyone else had last season!! :lol: HONESTLY. That is the epitome definition of "cherry picking." I'm betting since KM's best year was 10th best on THIS list (compared to their best season) that he would be a LOT lower if we counted the rest of the NFL's RBs that might have had a single season better then the 10.1 that you try and use.

Then, you have to consider that KM only has 97 catches... which is lower than nearly everyone on the list. I did NOT consider just one year, I took ALL four seasons of which he has played compared to the rest on this list and their ENTIRE career. I didn't pick just one season, which debunked your notion, and certainly did not just pick KM's worst season. Using his best season as your means of comparison is just trying really REALLY hard to make a point.

[BroncoWave]

That's something escapes BTB lots players cut just prior to camp even running backs. Apparantly BTB has never heard of this.

That said I don't think Moreno is owned a bonus and I don't see him getting cut unless his knee is just not coming around.

So, have you found those hypocritical quotes yet that I apparently made? I'm still waiting.

[LTC Pain]

WTF crawled up Tx's ass?

NFL offseason PMS???

[TXBRONC]

NFL offseason PMS???

I don't have pms I just a little emotional right now.

[underrated29]

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, I know my phone loves to change words around but this entire time I have been clamoring for his average of his career. Not his last year like tax did and not comparing his worst year to guys best.

That is cherry picking! I do t understand how it's so difficult to look at know no s career and compare that to the others in the NGOs career not just last year? Why is this so hard?

And rav, the part about few catches comes from mike mccoys lack of play calling. I know you weren't talking about that but it came up- that would be why he has fewer catches not because he can't catch which is absurd.


So please- someone who is not on a phone compare all the 4 years of Moreno catching to the past 4 yars of the elite backs who catch passes.

This is exhausting

[MOtorboat]

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, I know my phone loves to change words around but this entire time I have been clamoring for his average of his career. Not his last year like tax did and not comparing his worst year to guys best.

That is cherry picking! I do t understand how it's so difficult to look at know no s career and compare that to the others in the NGOs career not just last year? Why is this so hard?

And rav, the part about few catches comes from mike mccoys lack of play calling. I know you weren't talking about that but it came up- that would be why he has fewer catches not because he can't catch which is absurd.


So please- someone who is not on a phone compare all the 4 years of Moreno catching to the past 4 yars of the elite backs who catch passes.

This is exhausting

Of backs who played all years 2009-2012, he's tied for 14th in YPC with Ray Rice.
Marcel Reece
Danny Woodhead
Chris Wells
Michael Bush
Donald Brown
Larod Stephens-Howling
Arian Foster
DeAngelo Williams
Matt Forte
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Darren Sproles
Mike Tolbert
Knowshon Moreno
Ray Rice

[Buff]

Of backs who played all years 2009-2012, he's tied for 14th in YPC with Ray Rice.
Marcel Reece
Danny Woodhead
Chris Wells
Michael Bush
Donald Brown
Larod Stephens-Howling
Arian Foster
DeAngelo Williams
Matt Forte
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Darren Sproles
Mike Tolbert
Knowshon Moreno
Ray Rice

Yeah, but he runs too slow.

[Ravage!!!]

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, I know my phone loves to change words around but this entire time I have been clamoring for his average of his career. Not his last year like tax did and not comparing his worst year to guys best.
under, I'm confused what you are talking about. If people are saying he's a top five, then TX compared his last year's YPC to the entire NFL. Since you didnt' want to compare just last year's stats..assuming because it didn't fit your stance... I compared everyone on TX's list for their entire career to Moreno's entire career. Now I didn't go back and compare RBs that have come and gone, or had better years 2 years ago that could have been added to TX's list. I ONLY compared ENTIRE CAREERS of those on TX's list to Moreno's ENTIRE CAREER. That is NOT taking his best year and it absolutely is NOT just taking his worst year. How is this hard for you to understand?


And rav, the part about few catches comes from mike mccoys lack of play calling. I know you weren't talking about that but it came up- that would be why he has fewer catches not because he can't catch which is absurd.

For one, please please PLEASE stop this ridiculous complaining about McCoy's offensive calling. It doesn't make your case, and makes it look like you are purely looking for excuses. I don't CARE what the reason is for Knowshon's lack of catches are. We could make the same argument for EVERY RB on the list going this direction. The fact that he has fewer catches most probably due to the fact that he's always hurt, or simply not activated on the roster.

Moving forward from that, I don't see ANYONE that says Knowshon "CAN NOT" catch.... but merely pointing out that he is NOT a top 5 RB out of the backfield that you (or Bosco) have been stating.

As far as you only wanting to count the last 4 years of backs, how is that different than counting the entire career of guys that have played for 7 or 8 years? THe guys that have played for longer years have a better chance of diminishing their YPC then not. This would only help your case in defending his current ranking for pass-catchers.

Also, we are only using the ONE stat to try and prove a point...which we know is pretty ridiculous for ANY position. So please don't try to say that Reggie Bush is not as good as Knowshon out of the backfield because his YPC over his longer career isn't as high as KMs. That would be pretty shortsighted of you as well.


So please- someone who is not on a phone compare all the 4 years of Moreno catching to the past 4 yars of the elite backs who catch passes.

This is exhausting

Yes, you have been exhausting on this. You tried to counter with "I think Knowshon had a 10 YPC average a couple years back, that should put him in the top five compared to those RBs last year" (not a quote, but the sentence put it into context as to what you were saying). THAT is exhausting. Also, last year was NOT his ( Knowshon's) worst season for his YPC average, that would have been his rookie season. So if you want to take out his worst season in the NFL, that would have been 2009. Although, the limited playing time probably helped his cause (or your cause, in this case).

[underrated29]

Ok so you are confused by what I was saying and I was confused by what you were saying. So lets clear a few items up.

1. The reason why you can't use 1 year to make a case is because its one year. Like DT- last year he balled out, his year with tebow was meh. So by regards to that people could say Darius heyword bey is the better wr....that's why you have to look an entire body of career.

2. I didn't understand that you did that. I thought you were just comparing one year to the backs last year, which is obviously, like the point we are both making, not an accurate way to show anything.

3. Don't make stupid assumptions about what I would think, like the Reggie bush thing.

4. I don't use excuses. McCoy sucked, yes he did. But so did Kyle Orton, however you do not see me saying "boo wah knowshon has bad catching stats because Orton sucks". Or the line was bad, or mcdaniels was bad or anything else. I also can not wait for everyone to see how much epbetter our offense will be with McCoy gone. Yes, I understand we added welker, Ol guys, Peyton in year 2 etc......but the predictable play calling, only running inside, no screens to the rb, and holding back until the 4th quarter will all be noticeably different I am sure....however that is for another thread. I will be sure to make one though for everyone's pleasure after the season is done :)

5. I've been on my phone doing this so I couldn't look at any stats, way to hard to do on a phone. So to the last pat of your response I was just guessing. The who,e quote thing about a few years back I thought he was at or above 10ypc, well I was right but I didn't meanif to compare to he guys this year! I meant it to compare to guys that year, and e next year I believe he was just under that at 9 or something? I think someone posted it? Those are high numbers for a rb- so it would be simple to see why I would ink he would rate that high.
In other words- knowshon year 1 rec vs rbs that year, knowshon year 2 rec vs rbs that year, etc etc and then take an average of his re totals vs the other backs during that same time frame.

6. Obviously we would not include rbs from years ago, everything has to be congruent to get an accurate idea, same rbs, same time frame etc. including someone like LT or Barry Sandra would be ridiculous.


Now I think we have all that cleared up and understand what each are trying to say. I hope.

[TXBRONC]

For real Tx? I am not going to go wasting my time hunting around for all kinds of quotes and interview from coaches and teamates from the past 3 years. Thats why I said, ask the other board members. Since you do not believe me, which is fine, I figured you would take the word from the other solid posters here. Like I said, and proved, his YPC is and or was 10+....Its hard to argue with that.

So I challenge you, find me 10 more RBs that currently play that have that high of a Yards per catch.


I dont understand what you are trying to say in regards to mccoy? The fact that he was calling plays or something? Clear that up please. And the proof has already been rolled out about mccoy and gase. I am sure the link to the gase interview is on DB.com....Me, since I do most of this while working I only read the texts and not watch the vids. But ive given you who said it, almost a word for word quote from them and where it is likely to be found. If you dont want to believe it- go look it up for yourself. You should know me by now that I dont make stuff up or fib to support my arguments.

How can you not understand? You claimed that McCoy called the plays during McDaniels' tenure. I've said that isn't true. I went back through all the articles that have been written thus far in 2013. I've only have only found three had anything to do with Gase. I read all three and not a one of them has any mention of Gase claiming that McCoy calling plays under McDaniels nor anything that could be taken as criticism of McCoy's playing calling during the last two seasons. The Only article I've read was a month ago or so in the DP where Gase makes any mention of McCoy's play calling and it was. In that artcle he thanked McCoy for giving him the opportunity to do some of calling in various situation. But that had to do with past season not any time before then. So if you're going to make that claim then you ought to be the one to find the proof. McCoy didn't start calling plays until the last four games of 2010 season so that was after McDaniels had been dispatched. You say you're not making stuff up and you refering generally to DB.com yet there isn't an article that supports what you've claimed. If he anywhere near as bad as you claim we don't make the playoffs in 2011. The defense was vastly improved but they weren't '85 Bears defense or the Ravens defense of 2000.

It's not I think McCoy is greatest offensive coordinator to walk the face of the earth but your critcism doesn't entirely match up to what actually happened. What is fact is that Denver has made the playoffs twice with McCoy coordinating the offense and first time was with a subpar quarterback.

[Ravage!!!]

5. I've been on my phone doing this so I couldn't look at any stats, way to hard to do on a phone. So to the last pat of your response I was just guessing. The who,e quote thing about a few years back I thought he was at or above 10ypc, well I was right but I didn't meanif to compare to he guys this year! I meant it to compare to guys that year, and e next year I believe he was just under that at 9 or something? I think someone posted it? Those are high numbers for a rb- so it would be simple to see why I would ink he would rate that high.
In other words- knowshon year 1 rec vs rbs that year, knowshon year 2 rec vs rbs that year, etc etc and then take an average of his re totals vs the other backs during that same time frame.

Yeah.. I'm not going to go into the the "play calling by the fans" complaint, as every fan base thinks that their OC is "predictable" .. and its pretty silly, imo. So it's a topic for another thread, but I think blaming McCoy for Moreno's mediocrity is just looking to blame someone. His play calling and offensive change is what saved this team in 2011, as far as I'm concerned. As I said, I'm sure there are 10s of RBs in the NFL that you could try and go back and blame the OC or HC for lack of certain stats...or reverse and give credit ONLY to the offensive system as opposed to the player. Moreno's biggest obstacle was the fact that other players were on the roster.

I understood everything except this point in your post (highlighted), which seems to be saying exactly opposite of what you said before. You didn't want to use single season stats, but wanted to compare Knowshon year by year compared to other RBs that season....which would be counting single season stats. So that is a bit confusing. But if you want to make a case for Moreno being a top 5..or even top 10... you have to take his entire career stats and compare them to the rest of the NFL backs that are playing. At the same time, when someone says "he's a top 5 pass catcher"...it absolutely makes sense to compare what he did last season to the rest of the NFL. Because that's relevant. One could counter your claim of him being top 5 with ... "he was a top 5 at one time...but not any longer".. hence why last year's stats to compare would make sense.

Then, as I pointed out before, there are other things to consider..... which is why I mentioned Reggie Bush's name (please don't get so defensive about it). Reggie Bush has a TON more catches than Moreno, and thus his average isn't as high. This makes sense, so using the single "YPC" can't be the only stat one uses to determine a ranking considering the lack of touches that Moreno has gotten.

Ehh.. either way I think its pretty easy to see that Moreno is not a top 10...and certainly not a top 5... receiving back in the NFL, no matter how it's sliced up and diced around. He probably was the best at that on the team last year, though.

[Chef Zambini]

hey lets talk about lou saban !

[underrated29]

How can you not understand? You claimed that McCoy called the plays during McDaniels' tenure. I've said that isn't true. I went back through all the articles that have been written thus far in 2013. I've only have only found three had anything to do with Gase. I read all three and not a one of them has any mention of Gase claiming that McCoy calling plays under McDaniels nor anything that could be taken as criticism of McCoy's playing calling during the last two seasons. The Only article I've read was a month ago or so in the DP where Gase makes any mention of McCoy's play calling and it was. In that artcle he thanked McCoy for giving him the opportunity to do some of calling in various situation. But that had to do with past season not any time before then. So if you're going to make that claim then you ought to be the one to find the proof. McCoy didn't start calling plays until the last four games of 2010 season so that was after McDaniels had been dispatched. You say you're not making stuff up and you refering generally to DB.com yet there isn't an article that supports what you've claimed. If he anywhere near as bad as you claim we don't make the playoffs in 2011. The defense was vastly improved but they weren't '85 Bears defense or the Ravens defense of 2000.

It's not I think McCoy is greatest offensive coordinator to walk the face of the earth but your critcism doesn't entirely match up to what actually happened. What is fact is that Denver has made the playoffs twice with McCoy coordinating the offense and first time was with a subpar quarterback.



He did tex, you said it yourself, the last 3 or 4 games. But its irrelevant.

As for the gase thing it was an interview. Im on my phone most of the time so its difficult to do. But now as of this moment I am on a computer and its slow..... so give me a second to go find this for you..

[underrated29]

http://www.denverssportsstation.com/page.php?page_id=90

This isnt it, but it goes over what I have been saying forever now. About 3/4 down in the article. Just give me some time, I can find it. The direct quote.....Or anyone of you who can find these things faster, please do so

[underrated29]

This isnt it either but im getting warmer....

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/is-fox-blaming-mccoy-for-baltimore-blunders-lard

[underrated29]

Getting real close

https://twitter.com/cecillammey/status/333320247509655552

[TXBRONC]

http://www.denverssportsstation.com/page.php?page_id=90

This isnt it, but it goes over what I have been saying forever now. About 3/4 down in the article. Just give me some time, I can find it. The direct quote.....Or anyone of you who can find these things faster, please do so

I suggest you re-read because it says the opposite what you've been saying. You said running between had nothing to do with McGahee and Moreno's skill sets. The part I read said the opposite.

[underrated29]

Ooops!

http://www.fantasysp.com/player/nfl/Ronnie_Hillman/2849175/broncos-gase-says-team-will-have-balanced-run-game

[Ravage!!!]

This isnt it either but im getting warmer....

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/is-fox-blaming-mccoy-for-baltimore-blunders-lard

That article is full of it. I read the quote from Fox and he says that the one mistake he felt he made during that game was not going for the first on 3 and 7 instead of the run. He said that if he had to do it all over again, HE would have made a different choice. This article is twisting either the words of Fox, or twisting what Paige reported.

THERE IS NO WAY.... no way.. none... that the game on the line, in the playoffs, that kind of decision does NOT go through the HC. IF it did, then Fox needs to be fired. No way Fox doesn't make that call.

[underrated29]

There is a full interview somewhere but I think this should suffice.

[Ravage!!!]

Ooops!

http://www.fantasysp.com/player/nfl/Ronnie_Hillman/2849175/broncos-gase-says-team-will-have-balanced-run-game

Ok.. so you can see that Gase did not make the quote and this fantasy football site quoted the article above, and then gave "their take" on his comments.

[TXBRONC]

This isnt it either but im getting warmer....

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/is-fox-blaming-mccoy-for-baltimore-blunders-lard


Ooops!

http://www.fantasysp.com/player/nfl/Ronnie_Hillman/2849175/broncos-gase-says-team-will-have-balanced-run-game

Do you know why you can't find it? Because it doesn't.

[underrated29]

I suggest you re-read because it says the opposite what you've been saying. You said running between had nothing to do with McGahee and Moreno's skill sets. The part I read said the opposite.

yep- you got me there. To be fair I think you said it was because of Mcgahee not Moreno, but in any sense I agree knowshon is not an inside runner.

[underrated29]

Do you know why you can't find it? Because it doesn't.



If it doesnt then why is that gase comment even there. Why would he even say anything like that? Cant escape this one.

[TXBRONC]

There is a full interview somewhere but I think this should suffice.

Good freaking grief the article from It's All Over Fat Man is critiquing an article by Woody Paige. No it doesn't suffice. We've both looked for this article and haven't found a thing. As far as the quote is concerned it's not some kind of indictment of what McCoy did.

[Ravage!!!]

If it doesnt then why is that gase comment even there. Why would he even say anything like that? Cant escape this one.

Under.. that is the same quote as in the other article.

I think McDaniels said that we would be "doing things that we have never seen teams do before" when he came to Denver. An OC sayign " we are going to change things up and be more balanced" is about as normal as any other coach speak you hear.

You can't escape this one u29, I'm sorry.

[TXBRONC]

If it doesnt then why is that gase comment even there. Why would he even say anything like that? Cant escape this one.

What comment? I read the articles and they don't support what you've claimed.

[underrated29]

Well ive spent like an hour and a half looking. I think it does, you do not. ok. Feel free to keep looking but im done wasting my time on it.

[Ravage!!!]

Well ive spent like an hour and a half looking. I think it does, you do not. ok. Feel free to keep looking but im done wasting my time on it.

Fair enough. You read the fantasy article and thought (when you first read it) that it was Gase's comment instead of the fantasy writer's personal take. But as of right now, this sounds like the same writer that Zam keeps quoting on how Nolan wanted to move Champ to safety. He says it exists as well, but can't be found.

[TXBRONC]

yep- you got me there. To be fair I think you said it was because of Mcgahee not Moreno, but in any sense I agree knowshon is not an inside runner.

There's more. It also says that Moreno doesn't have the speed to run outside like Hillman and doesn't have the power that McGahee has for inside. It also talked about Moreno having durability issues.

[underrated29]

There's more. It also says that Moreno doesn't have the speed to run outside like Hillman and doesn't have the power that McGahee has for inside. It also talked about Moreno having durability issues.

I dont disagree with any of these.