Interesting

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Here are Favre's passing stats from last night's game:

Favre by distance thrown Dist. thrown Comp-Att Pass yds
Behind line 5-6 56
0-5 yds 3-4 20
6-10 yds 4-4 53
11+ yds 1-4 13

This morning on Mike and Mike, they were stating that it appears that the Vikings offense this year will be more short passes. Then one of them stated that any time a long pass is thrown, there is the greater chance of an int. So, the Vikings have "gunslinger Favre", but will use more short passes.

It appears that is the offense we have this year, but many Broncos' fans believe that is the offense that we have to have because Orton can not throw the long ball.

[G_Money]

Favre has been there for like 3 and a half minutes. Their offense was designed until last week to be run by either Tavares Jackson or Sage Rosenfels.

I'd have designed the offensive scheme the same way.

Tavares was much better last year, but in 07 threw 3 TDs vs 7 picks on throws over 10 yards. He was only 5 TD/5 INT under 10 yards, but ALL QBs are better under 10 yards, or at least should be. Completion percent goes way up, and in theory mistakes should go down. Very, VERY few teams build an offense on the long ball. Oakland likes to do it, but we've seen how well that's workin for em. Most teams use a controlled passing game. It was the whole point of the West Coast offense, after all. You just set up your shots downfield, that's all. If you never take a shot downfield you do your WRs a dis-service.

And if you have a devastating running attack and a great defense then you can let your QB be more of a manager and take fewer risks. Expect them to open it up as they have to contend with GB and Chi-town with their improved passing attacks and as Favre chafes under a manager mentality.

The Vikings just haven't had time to revise the playbook away from "QB I can't trust" to "QB I shouldn't trust but will anyway"

It'll happen.

~G

[spikerman]

Teams know that Favre can go deep so they have to respect that. So far Orton (or McDaniels) has either not shown the willingness or ability to throw it down the field. Since opposing defenses don't have to be afraid of the Broncos throwing it over their heads, they'll just load up in the box and stuff the short passes and the running game.

I had the same issue with Griese. He simply refused to throw it down the field and the entire offense ceased to be effective. I don't like the trend I'm seeing so far out of this offense.

[Dreadnought]

Favre has been there for like 3 and a half minutes. Their offense was designed until last week to be run by either Tavares Jackson or Sage Rosenfels.

I'd have designed the offensive scheme the same way.

Tavares was much better last year, but in 07 threw 3 TDs vs 7 picks on throws over 10 yards. He was only 5 TD/5 INT under 10 yards, but ALL QBs are better under 10 yards, or at least should be. Completion percent goes way up, and in theory mistakes should go down. Very, VERY few teams build an offense on the long ball. Oakland likes to do it, but we've seen how well that's workin for em. Most teams use a controlled passing game. It was the whole point of the West Coast offense, after all. You just set up your shots downfield, that's all. If you never take a shot downfield you do your WRs a dis-service.

And if you have a devastating running attack and a great defense then you can let your QB be more of a manager and take fewer risks. Expect them to open it up as they have to contend with GB and Chi-town with their improved passing attacks and as Favre chafes under a manager mentality.

The Vikings just haven't had time to revise the playbook away from "QB I can't trust" to "QB I shouldn't trust but will anyway"

It'll happen.

~G


Agreed. My own theory is that the long ball is the "Kill Shot", but that you succeed with it by setting it up with the run and a short precise passing game. As the defense overcommits to stop these you administer the kill with the deep pattern, ideally set up by play action. That opens up the run and short pass again, and you repeat until the defense is talking to itself.

By percentage it shouldn't be but a small minority of plays called, but setting up the deep ball is what you do all that other stuff for.

[Shazam!]

>!@# Farve.

[NameUsedBefore]

I'm beginning to wonder if the lack of long ball is on Orton and not McDaniels. Seriously, we've seen it every time with the backups, but when he is in it is nowhere.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I'm not a fan on Orton's arm strength and find it to be pretty average, but he gets a lot of unwarranted criticism because McDaniels' offense is predicated on bubble screens, and short and intermediate routes allowing receivers to make plays in the open field and get those coveted YAC. So while I may think Orton's arm strength isn't anything special, the lack of deep balls being thrown isn't something I'd be too concerned about. It's the system. Wes Welker doesn't haul in all the balls he does by running 15 yard posts and deep streaks all the time. In short, I think the shorter passes and what we're going with in the air are (more so) indicative of the system change and not Orton's inability to throw well deep. Just my fifty-eight cents.

[NameUsedBefore]

Tom Brady was still airing it out, however.

[nbenallo33]

word on the street that Farve has a cracked rib.. it was probably from that stupid chop block he had.. what an idiot what was he thinking and was was brad childres thinking doing the wildcat offence with brett farve??

[Dreadnought]

I'm not a fan on Orton's arm strength and find it to be pretty average, but he gets a lot of unwarranted criticism because McDaniels' offense is predicated on bubble screens, and short and intermediate routes allowing receivers to make plays in the open field and get those coveted YAC. So while I may think Orton's arm strength isn't anything special, the lack of deep balls being thrown isn't something I'd be too concerned about. It's the system. Wes Welker doesn't haul in all the balls he does by running 15 yard posts and deep streaks all the time. In short, I think the shorter passes and what we're going with in the air are (more so) indicative of the system change and not Orton's inability to throw well deep. Just my fifty-eight cents.

The problem is that its success with the long ball, and fear of it, that makes the short slants, bubble screens, hitches, and all that stuff actually effective. Thats where the YAC comes from. You won't have much if any in the face of press coverage, and you have to be able to make them pay for using it. Against a soft (Bob Slowick) zone you will tear it up. So make them play that, and you do it by putting fear into them.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Tom Brady was still airing it out, however.

On occasion, but not as often as people would like to believe. Not many 40+ yard passing plays happening with the Patriots. A lot of 20+, but a lot of those are attributed to short and intermediate passes that go further because guys like Welker and Co. rack up the YAC.

[NameUsedBefore]

The West Coast offense is like Muhammed Ali's boxing style. Throw judge jabs all day and then when the guy is tired of your bullshit you go for the haymaker. All the great "dink and dunkers" still threw the long ball because it's what netted points and took the wind out of opposing defenses. I haven't seen one yet from Orton.

[G_Money]

Yep, those are my concerns - not that we're throwing a lot of short passes, but that we may not be ABLE to throw longer passes. And if you can't, then guys can cheat safeties into the box and jump routes and crowd the line of scrimmage against the run because all of the plays will be short. It reduces the effectiveness of the play action even if you DO have a great running attack...stuff like that.

If Orton can hit some 20+ yard passes and keep the corners from crowding and the LBs from jumping routes that'll be great. If he can't, then he reduces the effectiveness of Scheffler's skillset and will start to hamper the shorter passes, as we did ourselves last year with overdoing the WR screens to the point that they became worse than a run.

It's not that short passing isn't useful - it is. But without a "dagger to the heart" potential in long passes, we have to hope for a defensive breakdown or march 15 plays for every score...and that's a lot of plays for something to go wrong during and cut our scoring drive short.

Orton has to hit some longer passes. Not in week one, I suppose, but when we get to the real defenses and they've seen tape on our (theoretically) punchless passing attack downfield it's going to be an issue.

~G

[Dreadnought]

Yep, those are my concerns - not that we're throwing a lot of short passes, but that we may not be ABLE to throw longer passes. And if you can't, then guys can cheat safeties into the box and jump routes and crowd the line of scrimmage against the run because all of the plays will be short. It reduces the effectiveness of the play action even if you DO have a great running attack...stuff like that.

If Orton can hit some 20+ yard passes and keep the corners from crowding and the LBs from jumping routes that'll be great. If he can't, then he reduces the effectiveness of Scheffler's skillset and will start to hamper the shorter passes, as we did ourselves last year with overdoing the WR screens to the point that they became worse than a run.

It's not that short passing isn't useful - it is. But without a "dagger to the heart" potential in long passes, we have to hope for a defensive breakdown or march 15 plays for every score...and that's a lot of plays for something to go wrong during and cut our scoring drive short.

Orton has to hit some longer passes. Not in week one, I suppose, but when we get to the real defenses and they've seen tape on our (theoretically) punchless passing attack downfield it's going to be an issue.

~G


We saw that against the Bears. Orton looked decent at the start, but a couple of penalties and our drives were simply dead. problem is that its really hard to maintain a 15 play drive and not have something go wrong, and we can't have an offense that can't overcome a bad play or two.

[topscribe]

Agreed. My own theory is that the long ball is the "Kill Shot", but that you succeed with it by setting it up with the run and a short precise passing game. As the defense overcommits to stop these you administer the kill with the deep pattern, ideally set up by play action. That opens up the run and short pass again, and you repeat until the defense is talking to itself.

By percentage it shouldn't be but a small minority of plays called, but setting up the deep ball is what you do all that other stuff for.

That's the system. That's what we see NE doing. You see Brady doing a dink
and dunk, and all the sudden there is Moss deep downfield taking it to the
house. It's interesting that reports have come out of camp on all the deep
throwing that was being done there.

It would seem to me they are still getting it ironed out in the offense. They
have needed receivers to go deep, especially since Marshall is not presently
available . . . his presence would help to loosen the coverage on the likes of
Royal and McKinley, the latter who has been showing the ability to go deep.


Yep, those are my concerns - not that we're throwing a lot of short passes, but that we may not be ABLE to throw longer passes. And if you can't, then guys can cheat safeties into the box and jump routes and crowd the line of scrimmage against the run because all of the plays will be short. It reduces the effectiveness of the play action even if you DO have a great running attack...stuff like that.

If Orton can hit some 20+ yard passes and keep the corners from crowding and the LBs from jumping routes that'll be great. If he can't, then he reduces the effectiveness of Scheffler's skillset and will start to hamper the shorter passes, as we did ourselves last year with overdoing the WR screens to the point that they became worse than a run.

It's not that short passing isn't useful - it is. But without a "dagger to the heart" potential in long passes, we have to hope for a defensive breakdown or march 15 plays for every score...and that's a lot of plays for something to go wrong during and cut our scoring drive short.

Orton has to hit some longer passes. Not in week one, I suppose, but when we get to the real defenses and they've seen tape on our (theoretically) punchless passing attack downfield it's going to be an issue.
~G

Orton can pass it long. From reports out of camp by unrelated sources, he has
been showing it there, and he showed it last year a couple times in the clips I
viewed. It would seem to me an immediate problem is getting everyone on the
same page in a new offensive system. And maybe they are just working on
certain things and otherwise keeping it close to the vest, not showing too
much in the preseason?

It will be interesting to see how they come out in the regular season. Maybe
by then Orton's finger will have healed sufficiently, and maybe even Marshall
will have come out of his funk and be ready to play some football, as he
claims he so loves to do. Moreno should be going, too. If all those things come
together, then I believe we will be looking at a different offense . . .

-----

[Elevation inc]

Here are Favre's passing stats from last night's game:

Favre by distance thrown Dist. thrown Comp-Att Pass yds
Behind line 5-6 56
0-5 yds 3-4 20
6-10 yds 4-4 53
11+ yds 1-4 13

This morning on Mike and Mike, they were stating that it appears that the Vikings offense this year will be more short passes. Then one of them stated that any time a long pass is thrown, there is the greater chance of an int. So, the Vikings have "gunslinger Favre", but will use more short passes.

It appears that is the offense we have this year, but many Broncos' fans believe that is the offense that we have to have because Orton can not throw the long ball.


favre and tavaris jackson dont instill much confidence for open up the playbook so if i was childress i would keep things short and sweet as well, the vikings also have the luxury of the top running game and top rush defense in the nfl as well so they can afford the short stuff much more than we can at this point

a 40 year old QB or even a journey man Qb like jackson or turnover prone qb like rosenfels would make me keep it short and simple as well.

maybe thats what MCD is doing knowing thats all orton can handle and lately even thats a huge struggle.....

[Lonestar]

Just as mike did not show all offense in PS I suspect that Josh does not either.. they are working on those plays in PS because they are the bread and butter of the O..

As in any sport it is all about the number of touches or Repetitions you have to do to be great at it..

the offense is new and the players are new to it.. Is suspect for the next few weeks it will be pretty plain vanilla and they will gradually add in plays week by week..

[Elevation inc]

Just as mike did not show all offense in PS I suspect that Josh does not either.. they are working on those plays in PS because they are the bread and butter of the O..

As in any sport it is all about the number of touches or Repetitions you have to do to be great at it..

the offense is new and the players are new to it.. Is suspect for the next few weeks it will be pretty plain vanilla and they will gradually add in plays week by week..

well we better give kyle another 3 preseason games because we are fubared then.......:lol:

[skycoyote]

Ya, but the problem with Orton's long ball is that his realease is the longest thing about it.

[powderaddict]

We haven't seen Orton go deep in the preseason.

But you know what?

Neither have opposing defenses that the Broncos will be facing this year. If this is all we see in the regular season, I'll be pretty dissappointed. I doubt that will be the case, but with this being Josh's first preseason, we don't really have any way of knowing how his preseason playcalling will translate into the regular season.

[topscribe]

Ya, but the problem with Orton's long ball is that his realease is the longest thing about it.

That's true. I understand he has had a bad habit of patting the ball before he
throws it downfield. That is something Elway did, too, but the difference lies in
the respective arms: Elway's ball got there so fast there wasn't anything the
defense could do about it. But they have been working on that tendency of
Orton's, from what I have heard.

-----

[BroncoNut]

Here are Favre's passing stats from last night's game:

Favre by distance thrown Dist. thrown Comp-Att Pass yds
Behind line 5-6 56
0-5 yds 3-4 20
6-10 yds 4-4 53
11+ yds 1-4 13

This morning on Mike and Mike, they were stating that it appears that the Vikings offense this year will be more short passes. Then one of them stated that any time a long pass is thrown, there is the greater chance of an int. So, the Vikings have "gunslinger Favre", but will use more short passes.

It appears that is the offense we have this year, but many Broncos' fans believe that is the offense that we have to have because Orton can not throw the long ball.

the gunslinger can be quite effective in a short pass offense. the strength of the arm is valuable in the timing and precision that is important in the dink and dunk game. :coffee:

[underrated29]

the gunslinger can be quite effective in a short pass offense. the strength of the arm is valuable in the timing and precision that is important in the dink and dunk game. :coffee:


Up yours John Madden. We want nut back. Leave him alone and stop posting under nuts name. We know nut does not have any clue as to timing precision and dink and dunk game.

Now leave...