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Dr Velcro
08-31-2009, 08:29 AM
I told everyone that Elvis was going to be a star on that team the day he was drafted....

I got laughed at.


Now, I'm going to tell you all this....

Brandstander has raw talent & is very, very smart.

If he is worked with....he's going to be your man & is going to come out of the back and shock the crap out of all Broncos fans.

Watch his college footage.

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 08:31 AM
lol see people need to jump on the brandy bandwagon ASAP......the SS kyle is sinking quick....LOL!!!!


i see a little corelation here brandy...brady.......LOL!!!!

LRtagger
08-31-2009, 08:32 AM
I was saying this about Tom well before the draft.

Everyone hop on the Brandwagon!

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 08:34 AM
you win, im there

TXBRONC
08-31-2009, 08:36 AM
I told everyone that Elvis was going to be a star on that team the day he was drafted....

I got laughed at.


Now, I'm going to tell you all this....

Brandstander has raw talent & is very, very smart.

If he is worked with....he's going to be your man & is going to come out of the back and shock the crap out of all Broncos fans.

Watch his college footage.

I can't speak for everyone but I know there are several people including myself that didn't laugh at you. When I found out that Dumervil was only 5'11" it didn't bother me because I realize right away it would give him a natural leverage advantage. Also Joe Collier who constructed Denver's original 3-4 defense said that if Dumervil has the fluidity in the hip to make the transition to OLB he would be "hell on wheels."

jrelway
08-31-2009, 08:42 AM
i'll jump on the bandwagon because i can truly say he is the better option over orton, simms, and martin. if we're to build off something, lets start with a fresh rookie who clearly has more talent then the rest of our scrub qbs.

claymore
08-31-2009, 08:42 AM
I told everyone that Elvis was going to be a star on that team the day he was drafted....

I got laughed at.


Now, I'm going to tell you all this....

Brandstander has raw talent & is very, very smart.

If he is worked with....he's going to be your man & is going to come out of the back and shock the crap out of all Broncos fans.

Watch his college footage.

I have no problem getting behind this kid. As for Dume, Ive always loved him. Even in college.

Im sick of dreading Orton and Simms. Hopefully Bandy and Inges or whatever are good surprises.

Mike
08-31-2009, 08:45 AM
Hell, he can complete a pass longer than 5 yards...I am sold.

LRtagger
08-31-2009, 08:46 AM
i'll jump on the bandwagon because i can truly say he is the better option over orton, simms, and martin. if we're to build off something, lets start with a fresh rookie who clearly has more talent then the rest of our scrub qbs.

This is nonsense. We are much better off right now with Orton. Tom is not even close to being ready...this is coming from his biggest supporter on the board. It would ruin his career to start him now.

Thnikkaman
08-31-2009, 08:47 AM
lol see people need to jump on the brandy bandwagon ASAP......the SS kyle is sinking quick....LOL!!!!


i see a little corelation here brandy...brady.......LOL!!!!

I'll go down with the SS Kyle and wait for the SS Brandy to throw me a life preserver as soon as he is named the starter. I hope that won't happen until at least next season.

----------------
Now playing: Leaders Of The New School – understanding the inner minds ey (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/leaders+of+the+new+school/track/understanding+the+inner+minds+ey)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

claymore
08-31-2009, 08:48 AM
This is nonsense. We are much better off right now with Orton. Tom is not even close to being ready...this is coming from his biggest supporter on the board. It would ruin his career to start him now.

I say we run some wildcat offense till He is ready. Its not looking like we are better with Kyle.

LRtagger
08-31-2009, 08:50 AM
I say we run some wildcat offense till He is ready. Its not looking like we are better with Kyle.

I think I will at least wait until the regular season when we will run our full offense with Kyle. We will not be throwing the ball 95% of the time during the season. We will see more of the type of offense that Tom ran (runs, playaction) with the shotgun spread mixed in...and even some throws downfield. I am willing to put money on it.

NightTrainLayne
08-31-2009, 08:50 AM
Brandstater can maybe develop into a good starting QB in the NFL, but it will take some time. He won't be ready to be the starter this season, but I like what I saw for the most part last night as a development project.

TXBRONC
08-31-2009, 08:51 AM
i'll jump on the bandwagon because i can truly say he is the better option over orton, simms, and martin. if we're to build off something, lets start with a fresh rookie who clearly has more talent then the rest of our scrub qbs.

I like Brandstater but I think he's a little to raw to start right away.

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 08:53 AM
I think I will at least wait until the regular season when we will run our full offense with Kyle. We will not be throwing the ball 95% of the time during the season. We will see more of the type of offense that Tom ran (runs, playaction) with the shotgun spread mixed in...and even some throws downfield. I am willing to put money on it.



dont think so because kyle doesnt have the athletecism for that.....i do agree giving orton at least 1 reg season game to shoot himself before declaring brandy god though....LOL!!!!!

Mike
08-31-2009, 08:53 AM
This is nonsense. We are much better off right now with Orton. Tom is not even close to being ready...this is coming from his biggest supporter on the board. It would ruin his career to start him now.

Maybe. He has a solid o-line and running game with solid WRs and TEs. It's not like he is playing for the Chiefs or Lions (;))...as far as ruining him goes. He looked pretty good running with the 1st team last night. In a perfect world, he has time to develop, learn, and be groomed. It is far from a perfect world in Denver right now. I do agree that he shouldn't be the starter...but I am beginning to feel like Orton isn't either.

Unless you are right about McD throwing a lot at Orton to see how he responds and will change his playcalling during the regular season, I don't see how anyone can get behind Orton. Of course, I will root for the guy, but I can't say that I have much confidence in him...and judging from the playcalling the last 2 games, neither does McD.

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 08:54 AM
This is nonsense. We are much better off right now with Orton. Tom is not even close to being ready...this is coming from his biggest supporter on the board. It would ruin his career to start him now.

this is probally true.....meh i like my hope though so i will continue to deflect to brandy untill i feel better...lol

TXBRONC
08-31-2009, 08:55 AM
this is probally true.....meh i like my hope though so i will continue to deflect to brandy untill i feel better...lol

Is this anything like getting intouch with your "inner child"? :D

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 08:56 AM
Is this anything like getting intouch with your "inner child"? :D

you could say that just wait untill RC, JR, and Mbronc see the stuff im spinning they will freak.....lol

TXBRONC
08-31-2009, 08:57 AM
you could say that just wait untill RC, JR, and Mbronc see the stuff im spinning they will freak.....lol

No doubt. :lol:

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 09:00 AM
No doubt. :lol:

the sad part is i had worries when kyle came here and i put them aside for three weeks, i cant do it any longer...i just cant i will root for denver be it 0-16 or 16-0 but the fact is brandy makes me feel like im in my happy place with a tad bit of hope and daylight for the O right now...so i will stick with that untill orton proves he is joe montana against cincy...lol

claymore
08-31-2009, 09:01 AM
Maybe. He has a solid o-line and running game with solid WRs and TEs. It's not like he is playing for the Chiefs or Lions (;))...as far as ruining him goes. He looked pretty good running with the 1st team last night. In a perfect world, he has time to develop, learn, and be groomed. It is far from a perfect world in Denver right now. I do agree that he shouldn't be the starter...but I am beginning to feel like Orton isn't either.

Unless you are right about McD throwing a lot at Orton to see how he responds and will change his playcalling during the regular season, I don't see how anyone can get behind Orton. Of course, I will root for the guy, but I can't say that I have much confidence in him...and judging from the playcalling the last 2 games, neither does McD.

Either JMCD opened it up when Brandy got in, or Orton has tunnel vision.

TXBRONC
08-31-2009, 09:08 AM
the sad part is i had worries when kyle came here and i put them aside for three weeks, i cant do it any longer...i just cant i will root for denver be it 0-16 or 16-0 but the fact is brandy makes me feel like im in my happy place with a tad bit of hope and daylight for the O right now...so i will stick with that untill orton proves he is joe montana against cincy...lol

I've been trying to do the same thing myself. I've just never been real comfortable with Orton as our starting quarterback. I think what we saw last night from the Bears defense is going to be consistent theme throughout the year. Opposing defenses going work to force Orton to throw over the top because to date he has struggled with doing that.

Northman
08-31-2009, 09:12 AM
Ive always like Elvis even when he was one of the few highlights on the Dline. All i heard was "He's too small", "He Sucks!". But when he got moved to LB i knew that was a great fit for him and he will excel there. As for Brandy, he has signs that could be good in the long run but right now to have him be a starter would be a huge mistake. Let the kid learn from the bench and get more pieces in place before feeding him to the wolves.

Elevation inc
08-31-2009, 09:14 AM
Ive always like Elvis even when he was one of the few highlights on the Dline. All i heard was "He's too small", "He Sucks!". But when he got moved to LB i knew that was a great fit for him and he will excel there. As for Brandy, he has signs that could be good in the long run but right now to have him be a starter would be a huge mistake. Let the kid learn from the bench and get more pieces in place before feeding him to the wolves.

shoot with injuries we have the bench may not be his calling...orton gets hurt ever year and simms is already jacked....lol brandy better learn real quick...lol

Overtime
08-31-2009, 09:25 AM
Either JMCD opened it up when Brandy got in, or Orton has tunnel vision.

he unleashed the kid, because he has to know what he can do, and find out what he's comfortable with. looks like it paid off, because I know for certain Orton couldn't have made that throw.

Brandstater looked the DB off and caused him to hesitate, Orton would have locked on and that DB would have intercepted it.

impressive for a rookie, but he needs to sit at least a year, maybe get thrown in for a series here and there, to just to keep him relatively fresh with the NFL game speed factor, so he can keep that experience fresh in his mind.

If the boy can develop, and freeze DB's like that...we'll have a gunslinger for years to come.

He throws a pretty ball too.

nbenallo33
08-31-2009, 09:46 AM
yeah i knew dummerville was gonna be good too.. i never knew why shanny would only put him in twice a game when he was a rookie.
maybe when Marcus Vick stepped on in him in college he became a machine! :D

and brandstetter looked good too IMO

frauschieze
08-31-2009, 09:50 AM
he unleashed the kid, because he has to know what he can do, and find out what he's comfortable with. looks like it paid off, because I know for certain Orton couldn't have made that throw.

Brandstater looked the DB off and caused him to hesitate, Orton would have locked on and that DB would have intercepted it.

impressive for a rookie, but he needs to sit at least a year, maybe get thrown in for a series here and there, to just to keep him relatively fresh with the NFL game speed factor, so he can keep that experience fresh in his mind.

If the boy can develop, and freeze DB's like that...we'll have a gunslinger for years to come.

He throws a pretty ball too.

Also, I have to believe that McD has been calling a plethora of pass plays in attempts to get Orton as comfortable as possible with the offense. If I see 4 passes from first and goal in the regular season, I will lead the charge to decapitate McD.

The playcalling changed when Brandstater came in, and we ran significantly more. I'm hoping that that's more of the mix we'll see in the regular season. Defenses have to respect the run and if we're only doing that 25%......it's gonna be ugly.

From everything that has been coming out of the players' mouths, McD's got a minimum a good football mind. I'm counting on the fact that if some dumb chick like me can figure it out that he knows it. My fingers are crossed.

broncofaninfla
08-31-2009, 10:00 AM
The rookie sixth round draft pick outplayed our veteran starter. I sure hope we aren't looking at a dink and dunk offense with Orton. I want a QB who can throw accurately on passes longer than 10 yards.

claymore
08-31-2009, 10:08 AM
The rookie sixth round draft pick outplayed our veteran starter. I sure hope we aren't looking at a dink and dunk offense with Orton. I want a QB who can throw accurately on passes longer than 10 yards.

He needs 3 years in the system. We cant judge him till then.

LRtagger
08-31-2009, 10:17 AM
Maybe I watched a different game then the rest of you, but Josh in no way opened it up for Tom. He actually toned it down...with a majority of running plays and passing plays from under center. The only time I remember Tom in the shotgun calling out reads at the LOS was on a couple third and longs and I don't think those turned out well. The playaction deep throw was great and I fully expect that from Orton during the season.

Don't get me wrong, Tom played great but he has a LOT of improving to do to even get to where Kyle is IMO. I think Tom could be good to great for us in a couple years, but not right now.

Like I said, I think we will see a completely different Kyle Orton when the season starts...We will run the ball a lot more and rely less on the spread and short passes. We will continue to run the spread and dink and dunk, but it will not be even remotely as much as we have in the preseason. I think this was all just to get Kyle accustomed to it so he will feel comfortable with it when the real games start. There is no need for Kyle to get accustomed to handing the ball off several times in a row. He needs to learn and be comfortable with the spread and making the proper reads. So far, I think he has done a fairly good job at it going by his completion percentage...but when he makes a mistake it turns out to be huge (turnover). Now is the time to correct that, but I do expect a much more balanced attack during the season. Josh did not install two completely different offenses this offseason (one for Kyle and one for Tom), so expect to see a little bit of each during the season.

G_Money
08-31-2009, 10:17 AM
Couple things:

The Bears have ZERO depth in the defensive backfield. The guys they're running out there to end the game with Brandstater are pure PS guys, if that. Don't put too much into it.

And while I like his touch with the ball more than Orton's (which is not good, but also not surprising to me unfortunately) I agree with tagger, there's NO way you let Brandstater see a regular season game this year unless you absolutely can't help it. If Orton can't start week one, you might have to, because I doubt Martin can master or even understand the playbook in 2 weeks. We could put him out there to hand off a lot and throw to Royal, but Brandstater can do that too.

However, once Martin knows what the hell is going on, Orton can start, or Simms is back then Brandstater never moves from the bench unless it's to wave a towel or slap a guy on the back.

I was happy to see McKinley doing some of the things I thought he could do for us, even though I want his routes to be sharper. Get HIM with Rod Smith - that could be a good match. McKinley has the work ethic.

And Brandstater managed to hit him with the football on deep routes in a way that's eluded Orton.

But none of that means Brandstater should play for us this year barring extreme emergency. The absolute best place for a rookie to learn is on the bench his first year. The pro game is far more complex, moves a lot faster, and you can ruin QBs in this league by throwing them in the fire too early. We don't have a need for it.

Other than my desire not to see Orton be a screw-up...but that's not a good enough reason to mess with whatever potential Brandstater has down the line. Let Brandstater pull a Matt Cassel, not a Joey Harrington.

~G

topscribe
08-31-2009, 10:37 AM
I think I will at least wait until the regular season when we will run our full offense with Kyle. We will not be throwing the ball 95% of the time during the season. We will see more of the type of offense that Tom ran (runs, playaction) with the shotgun spread mixed in...and even some throws downfield. I am willing to put money on it.

Kyle did well with some of those types of plays in Chicago. There's no reason
he won't now. I don't know why the play calling is attributed to his performance.
They were throwing underneath the coverage because that was wide open,
and Kyle did a 12/16 number on it.

What took away from its success were four holding penalties and a false
start. That is 45 yards they gave to the other team right there, and that is
not counting any completions that were brought back. No one can have a
successful offense by going the other way. That is what McDaniels was
getting at in his post game presser.

-----

claymore
08-31-2009, 10:53 AM
Kyle did well with some of those types of plays in Chicago. There's no reason
he won't now. I don't know why the play calling is attributed to his performance.
They were throwing underneath the coverage because that was wide open,
and Kyle did a 12/16 number on it.

What took away from its success were four holding penalties and a false
start. That is 45 yards they gave to the other team right there, and that is
not counting any completions that were brought back. No one can have a
successful offense by going the other way. That is what McDaniels was
getting at in his post game presser.

-----

That is all coaching.

Northman
08-31-2009, 10:58 AM
shoot with injuries we have the bench may not be his calling...orton gets hurt ever year and simms is already jacked....lol brandy better learn real quick...lol

All very true.

topscribe
08-31-2009, 11:47 AM
orton gets hurt ever year

I see . . . and how many years would that be?

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
08-31-2009, 11:49 AM
Too many to even care. Orton sucks!

Next up on DenverBroncos.com, an interview with 2010 draft pick Tim Hiller, who talks about his ability to throw the ball more than five yards and what being an actual legitimate NFL Quarterback means to him.

http://photos.mlive.com/photos/kalamazoogazette/d682df6194a06abeae222d7e106506f9.jpg

CoachChaz
08-31-2009, 11:55 AM
Orton goes down...Simms comes in...Simms goes down...Martin comes in. I dont foresee Brandstater seeing any action in an NFL game this year while on the PS and if he's given time to prove his ability...Martin will show he's better than "Brandy"

DenBronx
08-31-2009, 12:07 PM
Brandstaters got the goods but he needs time to develop. I would think he would ride the bench for a year or two.

Traveler
08-31-2009, 12:21 PM
It's only the pre-season, but I already feel like I did when Griese was the QB for us. Dink and dunk. Looks to be a long season ahead this year, but not unexpected.

Our QB of the future isn't on the roster yet. Orton is only stop-gap at best and doesn't inspire much confidence. He will be our starter because our options are limited.

Brandstater did look better and seems to move well in the pocket to buy time. Definitely looks the part of an NFL QB, more mobile, much better arm strength. Just too damn raw to start right now.

Although Orton has a better command of the offense, when both Simms and Brandstater had a chance to play, the offense seemed more potent. At least that's my perception. That fact that they were playing against 2nd and third string defenses might have something to do with it though.

Dr Velcro
08-31-2009, 12:23 PM
Last night....

I think it was the fourth quarter.

He stepped up in the pocket & threw the hell out that ball, which was caught at the eleven yard line.

He's very stealth if you watch him. He's exactly what your team needs.
A quiet but strong leader.
He's a smart one, a watcher....but doesn't seem to stare down his receivers.
To me, Orton seems to lack mobility, and Brandstater has it.
I have an eye for QB's. This is your guy.

He reminds me of a rougher Ben Roethlisberger.

CoachChaz
08-31-2009, 12:31 PM
Last night....

I think it was the fourth quarter.

He stepped up in the pocket & threw the hell out that ball, which was caught at the eleven yard line.

He's very stealth if you watch him. He's exactly what your team needs.
A quiet but strong leader.
He's a smart one, a watcher....but doesn't seem to stare down his receivers.
To me, Orton seems to lack mobility, and Brandstater has it.
I have an eye for QB's. This is your guy.

He reminds me of a rougher Ben Roethlisberger.



No offense, but dont we have enough "quiet" leaders on this team?


Brandstater = Ben? Seriously?

CoachChaz
08-31-2009, 12:32 PM
It's only the pre-season, but I already feel like I did when Griese was the QB for us. Dink and dunk. Looks to be a long season ahead this year, but not unexpected.

Our QB of the future isn't on the roster yet. Orton is only stop-gap at best and doesn't inspire much confidence. He will be our starter becuase our options are limited.

Brandstater did look better and seems to move well in the pocket to buy time. Definitely looks the part of an NFL QB, more mobile, much better arm strength. Just too damn raw to start right now.

Although Orton has a better command of the offense, when both Simms and Brandstater had a chance to play, the offense seemed more potent. At least that's my perception. That fact that they were playing against 2nd and third string defenses might have something to do with it though.



The truth at last

claymore
08-31-2009, 12:41 PM
The truth at last

I think weve all said that. But we would rather ride to the gallows with a rookie that makes it eciting than watch orton throw inaccurate 1 yard passes on 3rd and 8.

Dr Velcro
08-31-2009, 12:47 PM
lol see people need to jump on the brandy bandwagon ASAP......the SS kyle is sinking quick....LOL!!!!


i see a little corelation here brandy...brady.......LOL!!!!


No offense, but dont we have enough "quiet" leaders on this team?


Brandstater = Ben? Seriously?

Mark my words.

And yeah, you don't need anymore drama....

You need guys who will get out there and get the job done.

That is, unless you like the off season, off field drama and not having players making money just to whine and show their asses....ruining the beautiful legacy left behind by Elway.

Being humble, professional and a hard worker.

Dr Velcro
08-31-2009, 12:47 PM
I think weve all said that. But we would rather ride to the gallows with a rookie that makes it eciting than watch orton throw inaccurate 1 yard passes on 3rd and 8.

or with his left hand.

TXBRONC
08-31-2009, 02:10 PM
Orton goes down...Simms comes in...Simms goes down...Martin comes in. I dont foresee Brandstater seeing any action in an NFL game this year while on the PS and if he's given time to prove his ability...Martin will show he's better than "Brandy"

I don't think Brandstarter will be put on the practice squad.

topscribe
08-31-2009, 02:33 PM
No offense, but dont we have enough "quiet" leaders on this team?


Brandstater = Ben? Seriously?

Could be, Coach. Who knows?

Ben wasn't even Ben, before he was Ben . . .

-----

CoachChaz
08-31-2009, 02:46 PM
Could be, Coach. Who knows?

Ben wasn't even Ben, before he was Ben . . .

-----

At worst, he (Ben) was at least worthy of a first round draft pick. While I think McD has done some good things with mediocre talent, I dont want to count on the success happening EVERY time.

LRtagger
08-31-2009, 04:02 PM
I can't believe people are even considering him starting much less wanting it to happen. It would be a complete disaster and waste of any potential he might have.

Look what Tampa is doing...Josh Freeman (their #1 pick) is going into the season as their third QB even though he has had a great offseason. That is the way to do it. And that guy is much more talented and NFL ready than Tom B.

Mike
08-31-2009, 04:07 PM
I can't believe people are even considering him starting much less wanting it to happen. It would be a complete disaster and waste of any potential he might have.

Goes a long way on telling you how people feel about Orton and Simms.

I hope your theory is right about McD and his preseason gameplan with Orton. Cause right about now I don't think he is capable of doing much. If he must exist to get Denver through the season, then so be it. But if you are wrong then McD better start making QB plans for the offseason.

SmilinAssasSin27
08-31-2009, 04:09 PM
I told everyone that Elvis was going to be a star on that team the day he was drafted....

I got laughed at.


Now, I'm going to tell you all this....

Brandstander has raw talent & is very, very smart.

If he is worked with....he's going to be your man & is going to come out of the back and shock the crap out of all Broncos fans.

Watch his college footage.


He was drafted as a DE in a 4-3 defense. He was hardly a factor until now. Even though he does have some sacks, he was terrible vs the run. Please get over yourself.

But, I do like Brandstater

NightTrainLayne
08-31-2009, 04:14 PM
Matt Stafford looked better than Brandstater did the other day and he plays for Detroit. Yet Detroit has been steadfast that they will bring him on slowly and Daunte Culpepper will start for them.

Even with their dismal, horrendous, terrible, heart-breaking record of the past few decades, the Lions are not jumping the gun and throwing Stafford in too quickly, even though he played better than Brandstater, and Orton is arguably better at this point than Culpepper.

Zweems56
08-31-2009, 04:16 PM
Le Future?
http://a.espncdn.com/media/apphoto/2cc84ed9-354c-4c6b-9419-6180c1a24c41.jpg

topscribe
08-31-2009, 04:17 PM
Goes a long way on telling you how people feel about Orton and Simms.

I hope your theory is right about McD and his preseason gameplan with Orton. Cause right about now I don't think he is capable of doing much. If he must exist to get Denver through the season, then so be it. But if you are wrong then McD better start making QB plans for the offseason.

Well Mike, it isn't as if Orton fell off the turnip truck yesterday. If you studied
some videos of him, you would find that he is capable of more than what you
apparently believe he is, and that he was successful last year with an inferior
supporting cast and playing hurt the last half of the year.

Yes, any time a player comes into a new situation, he has to prove himself
again, and we are all waiting to see. But I don't believe some of us are giving
him any credit for what he has done . . . likely because few of us have
actually gone back to see for ourselves.

-----

Mike
08-31-2009, 04:21 PM
Well Mike, it isn't as if Orton fell off the turnip truck yesterday. If you studied
some videos of him, you would find that he is capable of more than what you
apparently believe he is, and that he was successful last year with an inferior
supporting cast and playing hurt the last half of the year.

Yes, any time a player comes into a new situation, he has to prove himself
again, and we are all waiting to see. But I don't believe some of us are giving
him any credit for what he has done . . . likely because few of us have
actually gone back to see for ourselves.

-----

All he has to do is complete a pass over 5 yards and I will tone it down a bit. A bit. This offense will not go without a downfield threat. From what I have seen, Orton doesn't qualify.

And really, what has he done? I will support the guy, but until I see a whole lot different from him on the field, I will remain skeptical.

topscribe
08-31-2009, 04:41 PM
All he has to do is complete a pass over 5 yards and I will tone it down a bit. A bit. This offense will not go without a downfield threat. From what I have seen, Orton doesn't qualify.

And really, what has he done? I will support the guy, but until I see a whole lot different from him on the field, I will remain skeptical.

A lot of that has to do with play calling. Just because he hasn't thrown longer
passes doesn't mean he can't. In the 64 clips and several games I saw of last
year, he was making all the throws. I saw them myself.

Moreover, I read early in camp where McD was commenting that Orton
overthrew Eddie Royal, who was 55 yards downfield (which is in keeping with
the assertion that not arm strength, but accuracy, has been the issue with
Orton on deep passes).

I don't know what's up with the play calling this year, but it doesn't mean he
can't do it. From all the deep passing in camp I have been hearing about, I
have wondered if they haven't been working heavily on it. Perhaps they will
be unveiling something around the first of the season--once his finger now
heals, of course? It would be interesting . . .

-----

G_Money
08-31-2009, 04:48 PM
As I said in another thread, Orton's 2008 completion percentage is 37 for passes from 10-20 yards, same for 21-30. He has NO accuracy for anything beyond 10 yards. Jay's completion % from 10-20 yards was 52 last year.

You assert he can make all the throws, but his numbers say he doesn't make them. He might be able to get the ball that far, however far "that" is, but not to put it in the hands of his receivers.

Maybe it's all his receivers' fault. Lord knows they looked pretty damn worthless. But Orton's gotta clean that up and actually HIT a receiver more than 1 time in 3 before I have any faith in his ability to lead our offense anywhere, and this preseason hasn't exactly been a banner coming out party for him in that regard.

~G

Superchop 7
08-31-2009, 05:05 PM
Top, you will support Orton through 100 interceptions.

His arm strength ? Puh-leeze.

His deep ball ?

Long balls arc to the right, less velocity = more arc.

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08-31-2009, 05:11 PM
Top, you will support Orton through 100 interceptions.

His arm strength ? Puh-leeze.

His deep ball ?

Long balls arc to the right, less velocity = more arc.

How much have you researched Orton? Not much . . . I can tell. I guess you
missed the part where I said I saw it. That means I observed it, witnessed it.
I'm not guessing at it as you obviously are . . .

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08-31-2009, 05:23 PM
As I said in another thread, Orton's 2008 completion percentage is 37 for passes from 10-20 yards, same for 21-30. He has NO accuracy for anything beyond 10 yards. Jay's completion % from 10-20 yards was 52 last year.

You assert he can make all the throws, but his numbers say he doesn't make them. He might be able to get the ball that far, however far "that" is, but not to put it in the hands of his receivers.

Maybe it's all his receivers' fault. Lord knows they looked pretty damn worthless. But Orton's gotta clean that up and actually HIT a receiver more than 1 time in 3 before I have any faith in his ability to lead our offense anywhere, and this preseason hasn't exactly been a banner coming out party for him in that regard.

~G

That's the problem with looking at a bunch of numbers without seeing the
player himself and his circumstances. I've gone over and over and over this,
and we still have people who think they know him from numbers or (more
often) nothing at all.

But yes, Orton had a lot of improving to do after coming over from Chicago.
McDaniels verified that. Orton's pre-draft scouting reports said he needed
developing before being thrown in as a starter. Instead, he was just thrown
in as a starter . . . that's Chicago for you.

I don't know why some people aren't at least mildly encouraged from what
they have seen of Orton. Yes, he had a game with three interceptions . . .
the first game of the preseason. So shall we just toss out the entire remainder
of his performances over those interceptions? So all the sudden he has the
jacket of throwing interceptions, despite that he threw 12 all last year?

Should we list all the QBs who have thrown three INTs in a game in their
respective careers? (The names would surprise you: In fact, you could just
about close your eyes and point at a name.)

I saw all those numbers. I also saw that O-line, those "receivers," and that
they were ranked #27 in the league in rushing yardage per carry. I also took
note that Orton played the last half of the season on a high ankle sprain, so
I compared the first (healthy) half to that half and came up with a day-and-
night difference in numbers.

And I didn't just say Orton can make all the throws. I said I saw him do it.
There is a difference.

There is a lot more than just to sit down and look at a page full of numbers . . .

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G_Money
08-31-2009, 05:50 PM
I watched fully half his games, top. I'm not just looking at numbers. His QB coach may have been sucky, his scheme inefficient, his WRs incompetent and his line inadequate...but even if they were all those things, Orton was not faultless.

You're not saying he is, but his inability to throw more than a dumpoff when he has to move his feet, his panicked reads under pressure, his complete ineptitude at hitting the deep post...they concern me greatly.

He has work to do. He threw the same % of interceptions/attempt as Cutler, despite throwing a lot less passes and not trying to carry the game through the air in the waning moments of scorefests thanks to his useless D.

He's not better at looking off defenders or making multiple reads than Cutler, and doesn't have Cutler's arm to get the ball there fast enough to escape the grasp of the CBs biting on the route. He can't throw accurately downfield.

Can he overcome these? Sure, he can. Will he? I dunno. Some great QBs have come from bad situations for their skillset into better options and become wildly successful. Some that struggle in youth become very good as they get older and bloom late.

You seem to see a guy who would put up basically the same #s as Cutler if you pro-rate their 2008 seasons to the same # of attempts (and this is true). You also look like you're saying that the concerns about accuracy and pocket presence and field vision are unfounded or at least can be mitigated by a few months in Josh's system and under his tutelage.

I hope you're right. But the guy I see is not the guy who is going to make those adjustments, or be successful throwing a lot, and he will hinder Josh's scheme if he can't stretch himself and become a better, more accurate passer past 10 yards while making better decisions with the ball.

I'm really glad we drafted Moreno. Forte saved Orton's bacon as a pass-blocker, a receiver and a running back against an 8-man front. I think we NEED our running game to be nasty again to help Orton attain whatever level of success he's capable of.

But you and I have different feelings on what that level of success is. We're both gonna be here all year to watch and discuss what we see, so it should be a fun discussion.

And then it'll be based on what we're both watching, and not as much on what we're assuming. :salute:

~G

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08-31-2009, 06:06 PM
I watched fully half his games, top. I'm not just looking at numbers. His QB coach may have been sucky, his scheme inefficient, his WRs incompetent and his line inadequate...but even if they were all those things, Orton was not faultless.

You're not saying he is, but his inability to throw more than a dumpoff when he has to move his feet, his panicked reads under pressure, his complete ineptitude at hitting the deep post...they concern me greatly.

He has work to do. He threw the same % of interceptions/attempt as Cutler, despite throwing a lot less passes and not trying to carry the game through the air in the waning moments of scorefests thanks to his useless D.

He's not better at looking off defenders or making multiple reads than Cutler, and doesn't have Cutler's arm to get the ball there fast enough to escape the grasp of the CBs biting on the route. He can't throw accurately downfield.

Can he overcome these? Sure, he can. Will he? I dunno. Some great QBs have come from bad situations for their skillset into better options and become wildly successful. Some that struggle in youth become very good as they get older and bloom late.

You seem to see a guy who would put up basically the same #s as Cutler if you pro-rate their 2008 seasons to the same # of attempts (and this is true). You also look like you're saying that the concerns about accuracy and pocket presence and field vision are unfounded or at least can be mitigated by a few months in Josh's system and under his tutelage.

I hope you're right. But the guy I see is not the guy who is going to make those adjustments, or be successful throwing a lot, and he will hinder Josh's scheme if he can't stretch himself and become a better, more accurate passer past 10 yards while making better decisions with the ball.

I'm really glad we drafted Moreno. Forte saved Orton's bacon as a pass-blocker, a receiver and a running back against an 8-man front. I think we NEED our running game to be nasty again to help Orton attain whatever level of success he's capable of.

But you and I have different feelings on what that level of success is. We're both gonna be here all year to watch and discuss what we see, so it should be a fun discussion.

And then it'll be based on what we're both watching, and not as much on what we're assuming. :salute:

~G

I don't think we differ so much as to our perception of success, do we? What
is mine?--Winning! Is yours any different?

But, much as I agree with you on much of what Orton needs to improve, I do
not necessarily share your doubts as to whether he will improve them. He has
a terrific work ethic, from witnesses around him, and that is what it will take,
in addition to the kind of teacher McDaniels is. I am optimistic from what I
have seen, and you should be, too, at least mildly. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't
know. But all signs seem to indicate otherwise, to me.

I, too, believe Orton needs a good running game in the worst way. He did not
have one last year, and he suffered for it. I would love for Moreno and Hillis
to bring back memories of Jim Brown/Bobby Mitchell and John Riggins/Joe
Washington. Add to that the hopes that one Brandon Marshall will regain
sanity and come back to the fold, and Orton could end up looking pretty good.
But, yes, he does need a lot of help there . . .

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Ravage!!!
08-31-2009, 06:08 PM
I think it might be safe to say that Chicago ranked so low in rushing ypc is because defenses know that Orton can't pass accurately past 10 yrds. Its easy to stack against a rookie RB when you most certainly aren't worried about the downfield passing.

Also to note, Cutler will make their OL better because he has such pocket presence. In contrast, our OL will give up more sacks this season to Orton (now I do say that feeling confident that our OL would have given up more sacks this season even if Cutler were behind center. Its just hard to duplicate that kind of performance).

But there is a reason that Orton has a reputation for not having a strong arm, and it has NOTHING to do with throwing the deep ball. There is a reason that the smarter QBs like Griese beat him out.. and there is a reason that Rex Grossman beat him out for the starting role. There is a reason that the Bears were willing to toss at us a lot of top picks.. oh and we'll throw in Orton... for a trade on Cutler. Its not because Orton has been misunderstood, or has been hidden behind great starting QBs ahead of him.

But I think guys like Hillis are going to be this offense's best friend.

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08-31-2009, 06:15 PM
There is a reason that the smarter QBs like Griese beat him out.. and there is a reason that Rex Grossman beat him out for the starting role.

You know, you keep saying that, but you have never answered my response:
Namely, who was the starting QB for the Bears last year, and whom did he beat
out for the position? And where was Griese last year?

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Ravage!!!
08-31-2009, 06:17 PM
You know, you keep saying that, but you have never answered my response:
Namely, who was the starting QB for the Bears last year, and whom did he beat
out for the position? And where was Griese last year?

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:lol: So you are saying?? That he finally won over Griese and Grossman?? Ok...

Let me change my statement. He FINALLY was able to beat out both Brian Griese and Rex Grossman for the starting QB position. Awesome.

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08-31-2009, 06:23 PM
:lol: So you are saying?? That he finally won over Griese and Grossman?? Ok...

Let me change my statement. He FINALLY was able to beat out both Brian Griese and Rex Grossman for the starting QB position. Awesome.

Minimize as you will, the fact is you originally provided a specious argument.
Orton earned the starting job in his second year on the field. Moreover, after
Grossman started the eighth game because of Orton's injury, Orton took back
the starting job from Grossman in the ninth game, injury and all.

I hope we've heard the last of that now.

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Mike
08-31-2009, 06:52 PM
We all understand the argument, Top. But given how weak the QB position has been for the Bears and given the weak talent he "won" the job against...it just isn't a very strong argument.

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08-31-2009, 06:54 PM
We all understand the argument, Top. But given how weak the QB position has been for the Bears and given the weak talent he "won" the job against...it just isn't a very strong argument.

I understand. And that does add to doubts, for sure. But I have to wonder just
how much the deplorable conditions on that team contributed to the weakening
of the talent.

Truly, that team needs a Cutler, and Orton needs the Broncos. That's the way
I look at it, anyway . . .

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08-31-2009, 07:45 PM
How much have you researched Orton? Not much . . . I can tell. I guess you
missed the part where I said I saw it. That means I observed it, witnessed it.
I'm not guessing at it as you obviously are . . .

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Look, just to explain myself . . .

I'm not particularly a great big fan of Orton's (other than I admire his attitude).
Nor am I making any particular predictions, other than I expect Orton to do well,
based on what he has done so far in his career under the circumstances in
which he has done it.

I'm only trying to clear up some misconceptions and inaccuracies about him,
again based on what I have discovered in my research of him.

It has been claimed he has a "noodle" arm. I discovered he threw the ball 74
yards in a college contest.

It has been claimed he cannot throw with velocity. I have watched him
throw with considerable velocity. He has even elicited remarks from color
commentators for his velocity in certain passes. His "catchable" passes are
intentional to make them catchable, far as I can see.

It has been claimed he cannot throw across his body to the left. Not only
have I seen him throw deep outs to the left, but he actually has an
approximately equal completion percentage to the left as he has to the right.

It has been claimed he is not accurate. I have seen that was pretty true
going deep, but not short to medium . . . in fact, McDaniels listed his accuracy
as one reason he likes him.

It has been claimed he is not very smart. Yet, again, McDaniels said another
reason he likes him is because he is very smart. In fact, Orton is known for
his good decisions.

I am not making any argument about the man that I cannot back with facts,
that I have not seen for myself, that which is there for anyone else to see.

But regarding how much of a fan of Orton's I am: I am a fan of his as long as
he wears a Broncos uniform. I am also a fan of Simms', Brandstater's, and that
new QB's (I forget his name at the moment), along with anyone else who
wears that uniform. I am a fan of the Denver Broncos.

I will not support Orton or anyone else if he ends up losing games for the
Broncos. The only losers I support play for the Raiders and Chargers, and the
more they lose, the more I will support them. :D

I hope that clears it up.

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gobroncsnv
08-31-2009, 10:52 PM
Then again, we saw another Jay Cutler deep pass on Sunday that a receiver had to wait on, which put Goodman in position to swat it away. I never saw consistency with his bombs, at all. Royal and B Marsh had to wait/adjust, etc, on most of his passes over 30-40. Jay's game was best at 15 - 30.
Orton is kind of scary right now, but ALL we can rely on right now is a passing game. Our rushing attack is even less consistent. Give more options to have the D watch for, and maybe Orton's game comes around. Oline penalties are not a QB's friend either. But I will say it again, Orton IS kind of scary right now.

rcsodak
08-31-2009, 10:57 PM
Either JMCD opened it up when Brandy got in, or Orton has tunnel vision.

7different receivers in a qtr+ of play is HARDLY tunnel vision, clay.

rcsodak
08-31-2009, 11:02 PM
he unleashed the kid, because he has to know what he can do, and find out what he's comfortable with. looks like it paid off, because I know for certain Orton couldn't have made that throw.

Brandstater looked the DB off and caused him to hesitate, Orton would have locked on and that DB would have intercepted it.

impressive for a rookie, but he needs to sit at least a year, maybe get thrown in for a series here and there, to just to keep him relatively fresh with the NFL game speed factor, so he can keep that experience fresh in his mind.

If the boy can develop, and freeze DB's like that...we'll have a gunslinger for years to come.

He throws a pretty ball too.

I'm just wondering what kind of fancy, schmancy, NFL tape player you have, that gave you the birds-eye view of him doing all of that.

You know....while they rest of us poor schmoes are relegated to being stuck with our HD 50"+ TV's with pause/slomo/zoom, blah blah blah..... :coffee:

rcsodak
08-31-2009, 11:11 PM
That is all coaching.

BS clay. If it was Shanny, you'd not be saying that, imo.

Dennison is still there.
ALL 5 starters are still there.
Bobby is still there.

If they don't know how to not hold by now, they NEVER will. But that wasn't a problem last year, so......

FWIW, the league is cracking down on holding calls, starting this year. Don't know why it was only denver's Oline getting them, but whatever. Maybe Hochuli was trying to make up for all of his gaffes. He was more nervous than a hooker getting married in a white dress. WOW!

Ravage!!!
08-31-2009, 11:18 PM
BS clay. If it was Shanny, you'd not be saying that, imo.

Dennison is still there.
ALL 5 starters are still there.
Bobby is still there.

If they don't know how to not hold by now, they NEVER will. But that wasn't a problem last year, so......

FWIW, the league is cracking down on holding calls, starting this year. Don't know why it was only denver's Oline getting them, but whatever. Maybe Hochuli was trying to make up for all of his gaffes. He was more nervous than a hooker getting married in a white dress. WOW!

rc.. EVERY year its pointed out that its the coaching on discipline for the penalties collected by a team. THat doesn't change simply because McDaniels has taken over the Broncos.

The fact that you highlighted that "only the Broncos Oline getting the penalties".... makes it that much more apparent.

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08-31-2009, 11:20 PM
rc.. EVERY year its pointed out that its the coaching on discipline for the penalties collected by a team. THat doesn't change simply because McDaniels has taken over the Broncos.

The fact that you highlighted that "only the Broncos Oline getting the penalties".... makes it that much more apparent.

So what you are saying is that the arms and hands of each offensive lineman
are guided by remote control from the sidelines. Right?

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Ravage!!!
08-31-2009, 11:27 PM
So what you are saying is that the arms and hands of each offensive lineman
are guided by remote control from the sidelines. Right?

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yeah top, thats EXACTLY what I'm saying! :lol:

Get off your defensive stance for just a moment. Lets be honest here. Clay is right. When a team is being penalized, that points to the coaching. It always has been something that points directly to the coaching. That doesn't change simply because the coach changes or because we wish not to give blame to McDaniels.

Now I'm sure, if the regular season comes around and our OLman start performing like they did last season, we'll be sure to give the 'coaches' the credit for shaping them up. But as of right now, the coaches get no blame for the penalties? Or is it only McDaniels that doesn't get that criticism since many are jumping on his case... a charge to defend, again?

Sure seems when we see the Raiders get a lot of penalties, we point out how its the lack of quality coaching. When its in Denver, its just..... the players? :confused:

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08-31-2009, 11:43 PM
yeah top, thats EXACTLY what I'm saying! :lol:

Get off your defensive stance for just a moment. Lets be honest here. Clay is right. When a team is being penalized, that points to the coaching. It always has been something that points directly to the coaching. That doesn't change simply because the coach changes or because we wish not to give blame to McDaniels.

Now I'm sure, if the regular season comes around and our OLman start performing like they did last season, we'll be sure to give the 'coaches' the credit for shaping them up. But as of right now, the coaches get no blame for the penalties? Or is it only McDaniels that doesn't get that criticism since many are jumping on his case... a charge to defend, again?

Sure seems when we see the Raiders get a lot of penalties, we point out how its the lack of quality coaching. When its in Denver, its just..... the players? :confused:

So the Broncos have the same O-line coach as last year. So what now?

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