Doom's replacement as a pass rusher... Von Miller

[MHCBill]

With the RDE being the more important of the 2 rush DE positions in a 4 down linemen alignment, wouldn't it make the most sense to move Von there versus the LDE position he played most of last season on pass rush downs?

Not saying he didn't play any downs last year at RDE, but my guess is that 80% of those pass rush alignments had Von at LDE and Doom at RDE. With the importance of a strong pass rush from the RDE against the blindside of most QB's, I think utilizing our best pass rusher there would be the most useful utilization of that resource.

In a pass happy league, with the assumption teams will NEED to pass to keep up with our offense, I think Von is the natural fit to replace Doom's production in that spot.

Ayers, or Beal, or Jackson, or rookie should be our LDE presence and leave the most important pass rush position, RDE to Von Miller.

Thoughts?

[SR]

What?

[UnderArmour]

We need more than 1 pass rusher. I still have nightmares of that 4-12 season where Doom went down and we couldn't get any pass rush going whatsoever. Either we sign a free agent or we take a pass rusher in our top 2 picks; it's just not good enough to put Von out there and expect him to do it all on his own. Lining Von up at DE at Doom's old spot won't fix anything and will just result in him being double teamed, taking away our pass rush.

[TXBRONC]

With the RDE being the more important of the 2 rush DE positions in a 4 down linemen alignment, wouldn't it make the most sense to move Von there versus the LDE position he played most of last season on pass rush downs?

Not saying he didn't play any downs last year at RDE, but my guess is that 80% of those pass rush alignments had Von at LDE and Doom at RDE. With the importance of a strong pass rush from the RDE against the blindside of most QB's, I think utilizing our best pass rusher there would be the most useful utilization of that resource.

In a pass happy league, with the assumption teams will NEED to pass to keep up with our offense, I think Von is the natural fit to replace Doom's production in that spot.

Ayers, or Beal, or Jackson, or rookie should be our LDE presence and leave the most important pass rush position, LDE to Von Miller.

Thoughts?

The did move Miller and Dumervil around. Sometimes they flipped sides, some times they were both stand up defensive ends, and there a few occassion they were even on the same side of the field. That's one of the luxuries you have when you have two very good pass rushers.

Like running backs you can never have enough good pass rushers.

Are you suggesting a complete remake of the defense? I would venture to guess Fox would want to avoid that if can. We have a LDE in Wolfe who has some flexiblitly. I think the better thing to do is to find another RDE who can replace the production we got from Dumervil.

[TXBRONC]

We need more than 1 pass rusher. I still have nightmares of that 4-12 season where Doom went down and we couldn't get any pass rush going whatsoever. Either we sign a free agent or we take a pass rusher in our top 2 picks; it's just not good enough to put Von out there and expect him to do it all on his own. Lining Von up at DE at Doom's old spot won't fix anything and will just result in him being double teamed, taking away our pass rush.

I would almost being willing bet Denver draft a defensive end even if they sign Freeney or Abraham because neither of them is a long term solution. Also from what I've been understanding neither one of them would be on the field full time.

[MHCBill]

We need more than 1 pass rusher. I still have nightmares of that 4-12 season where Doom went down and we couldn't get any pass rush going whatsoever. Either we sign a free agent or we take a pass rusher in our top 2 picks; it's just not good enough to put Von out there and expect him to do it all on his own. Lining Von up at DE at Doom's old spot won't fix anything and will just result in him being double teamed, taking away our pass rush.Missed the point, but that's okay.

[MHCBill]

The did move Miller and Dumervil around. Sometimes they flipped sides, some times they were both stand up defensive ends, and there a few occassion they were even on the same side of the field. That's one of the luxuries you have when you have two very good pass rushers.

Like running backs you can never have enough good pass rushers.

Are you suggesting a complete remake of the defense? I would venture to guess Fox would want to avoid that if can. We have a LDE in Wolfe who has some flexiblitly. I think the better thing to do is to find another RDE who can replace the production we got from Dumervil.Absolutely no remake of the defense, but utilizing Miller at primarily RDE versus LDE on PASS RUSH DOWNS.

Why not put our best pass rusher at the most important pass rush position in a 4 down linemen alignment, RDE?

[MHCBill]

What?What what?

[MOtorboat]

No, I don't think it would work as well. I think Denver has to find a guy who can rush the passer and replace Dumervil who can play there all three downs. Rather see nothing change in terms of what they ask Miller to do.

[aulaza]

I don't think it really matters which side you put him on. Putting Von at RDE on passing downs won't magically change things. If we have less pass rush on the field then we will be less effective at rushing the passer, no matter how you align it.

Ok, maybe you replace Dooms production (I believe you would actually increase it) if you do this, but you lose Von's production on the other side. Either way we need a replacement. Where they line up on passing downs is irrelevant. Von lined up on the other side sometimes last year anyway.

[TXBRONC]

Absolutely no remake of the defense, but utilizing Miller at primarily RDE versus LDE on PASS RUSH DOWNS.

Why not put our best pass rusher at the most important pass rush position in a 4 down linemen alignment, RDE?

That would be remake of the defense to some degree. I think that would make Denver more predictable. One of things that made our defense so good was that we could get pressure from both edges which means quarterbacks are forced back to the middle where all the trash is.

I thinks far better idea to go out and find a pass rusher who can play RDE so that Miller can stay where he's at.

[MHCBill]

No, I don't think it would work as well. I think Denver has to find a guy who can rush the passer and replace Dumervil who can play there all three downs. Rather see nothing change in terms of what they ask Miller to do.Only for pass rush downs, you don't really think Von would be better used there?

[MHCBill]

I don't think it really matters which side you put him on. Putting Von at RDE on passing downs won't magically change things. If we have less pass rush on the field then we will be less effective at rushing the passer, no matter how you align it.

Ok, maybe you replace Dooms production (I believe you would actually increase it) if you do this, but you lose Von's production on the other side. Either way we need a replacement. Where they line up on passing downs is irrelevant. Von lined up on the other side sometimes last year anyway.I agree with the one point that not all of Doom's and Von's production can be easily replaced from last year, however putting your best pass rusher at RDE seems to be the best utilization of that resource.

[MHCBill]

That would be remake of the defense to some degree. I think that would make Denver more predictable. One of things that made our defense so good was that we could get pressure from both edges which means quarterbacks are forced back to the middle where all the trash is.

I thinks far better idea to go out and find a pass rusher who can play RDE so that Miller can stay where he's at.True, but that unpredictability has disappeared with having 1 of 2 premier pass rushers leave the organization. When you only have one premier pass rusher, shouldn't he be on the right side of your pass rush? Why don't other teams with only 1 premier pass rusher put that rusher at LDE?

[MOtorboat]

Only for pass rush downs, you don't really think Von would be better used there?

Not really. Not if they plan to continue to use him where he's best, which is in those "over" formations...

[TXBRONC]

Only for pass rush downs, you don't really think Von would be better used there?

It's not that he couldn't play there but then you still have a hole in your production to contend with. How much more productive can he be coming from the right rather than the left? It would better to find replacement for Dumervil than to move Miller.

[MHCBill]

Not really. Not if they plan to continue to use him where he's best, which is in those "over" formations...Ok... but I still think on obvious passing downs he would be better coming from the blindside. In the normal base 4-3 alignment I'm with you, but I just imagine it would be in opposing QB's heads that #58 is coming from where I can't see him and I better get rid of this ball quick. I think having his speed in their heads would be a plus.

[TXBRONC]

True, but that unpredictability has disappeared with having 1 of 2 premier pass rushers leave the organization. When you only have one premier pass rusher, shouldn't he be on the right side of your pass rush? Why don't other teams with only 1 premier pass rusher put that rusher at LDE?

It would be mistake to stand pat and not try to replace Dumervil.

[MHCBill]

It's not that he couldn't play there but then you still have a hole in your production to contend with. How much more productive can he be coming from the right rather than the left? It would better to find replacement for Dumervil than to move Miller.As stated in other posts, I think the point would be since we're only left with 1 premier pass rusher he would be more effective rushing from the QB's blindside. Maybe not, but most teams with one real good pass rusher go with that choice for a reason.

[aulaza]

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought from the title you were thinking we could replace the production with this 'quick fix'. However, if you just want to have a discussion about whether to have Von rushing from the right side and (enter Free agent/draft pick here) rushing from the left or vice versa, then that's a debate we can have.

It will depend at least in part on who we end up acquiring. I think they will prefer to have Von more on the left as usually it will be a mis-match for him. However, without Doom, you would think that Von will see a lot of double teams. Therefore I would expect to see a mixture of alignments to try and keep teams of balance and make it less easy to create double teams.

Either way though, it would be ideal to find a guy, either a free agent or draft pick, who is effective enough as a pass rusher that other teams can't just double Von all day. We need someone who has the ability to win a one on one a fair amount of the time, someone you can't leave your tackle on an island with all game.

[MHCBill]

It would be mistake to stand pat and not try to replace Dumervil.Don't disagree... not sure we can find another premier pass rusher though.

[TXBRONC]

Ok... but I still think on obvious passing downs he would be better coming from the blindside. In the normal base 4-3 alignment I'm with you, but I just imagine it would be in opposing QB's heads that #58 is coming from where I can't see him and I better get rid of this ball quick. I think having his speed in their heads would be a plus.


We're not in our base defense but about 50% of the time at best. Also teams would rather keep us in base defense even when we had Dumervil because that mean Miller is more a tradtional Sam linebacker.

[TXBRONC]

Don't disagree... not sure we can find another premier pass rusher though.

Dumervil was a 4th round pick and from what others said there are plenty of potentially solid pass rushers in this draft class.

[MHCBill]

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought from the title you were thinking we could replace the production with this 'quick fix'. However, if you just want to have a discussion about whether to have Von rushing from the right side and (enter Free agent/draft pick here) rushing from the left or vice versa, then that's a debate we can have.

It will depend at least in part on who we end up acquiring. I think they will prefer to have Von more on the left as usually it will be a mis-match for him. However, without Doom, you would think that Von will see a lot of double teams. Therefore I would expect to see a mixture of alignments to try and keep teams of balance and make it less easy to create double teams.

Either way though, it would be ideal to find a guy, either a free agent or draft pick, who is effective enough as a pass rusher that other teams can't just double Von all day. We need someone who has the ability to win a one on one a fair amount of the time, someone you can't leave your tackle on an island with all game.Maybe the thread title is misleading... I don't think Von is the new RDE in our regular alignment. I think he should be our RDE on pass rush downs. I believe with almost 100% certainty than Von will be double-teamed whether he comes from the RDE or LDE, but having a player like you said that can win some one-on-one matchups will be critical.

[MHCBill]

Dumervil was a 4th round pick and from what others said there are plenty of potentially solid pass rushers in this draft class.I hope we do, but if we don't I'm partial to putting our best rusher at RDE on PASS RUSHING DOWNS. To each their own...

[MOtorboat]

It's harder to find a guy who can do what Miller does from the strongside than it is to find a guy who is serviceable at RDE. (Now...that speaks more to Miller's unique skills than it is to finding a pass rusher on the right side. Both are difficult to find)

But again, here we go with taking a player who is an All-Pro at one position and moving him to a different position to try to fix a hole and then leaving a gaping hole at the position he's vacating. There's a reason teams don't do that.

[SR]

Absolutely no remake of the defense, but utilizing Miller at primarily RDE versus LDE on PASS RUSH DOWNS.

Why not put our best pass rusher at the most important pass rush position in a 4 down linemen alignment, RDE?

Why would you move the sack leader from where he has led the team in sacks two years in a row? Makes no sense. The logical solution is to get a new RDE...

[BroncoWave]

Dumervil was a 4th round pick and from what others said there are plenty of potentially solid pass rushers in this draft class.

Thank you. I honestly don't get this notion that we will just cease to have a pass rush without Doom. While the replacement we find likely won't be AS good, I have no doubt we can find someone serviceable.

I'm really getting tired of the "teams will just double Miller" argument. You know what? I hope teams do double him. Whenever you can get the offense (who already has a 10-11 disadvantage of linemen/skill players because of the QB) to commit two of their guys to one of yours, your defense is at a pretty big advantage. I'm sure whoever we sign/draft to replace Doom will reap the rewards of Miller getting all the attention, and once that guy starts doing that, teams will have to focus on him, freeing up Miller more to do his thing.

[Superchop 7]

The Broncos will move Von around depending on the circumstance, the ultimate answer is to find a complement to him. Dumerville was not asked to do alot of contain, he was essentially let loose to wreak havoc in the backfield. Finding guys that can do that in this draft should not be a problem, granted, there will be a learning curve but there are some explosive prospects the Broncos can target. My hope is that they use a couple of picks on DE, putting all your eggs in one basket could spell trouble.
Ayers is a good contain guy, good at run defense, good at zone read option offense, we will be OK playing situational football from RDE.

[Ravage!!!]

I can see what Bill is saying, but there is something else to consider. Yes, Von has switched sides to cause mis-matches and "force" their adjustments. But although Von would be coming from the majority of QB's blindsides, you are also then matching him up with the best OL on the other team. They aren't going to stop double teaming that block, but by aligning him to the RDE, you are adding skill to vs Von on those pass rushes.

Although I see the logic of putting on the blindside, I don't necessary believe "its the most important pass rushing side." It just has its blindside advantage.

[MHCBill]

It's harder to find a guy who can do what Miller does from the strongside than it is to find a guy who is serviceable at RDE. (Now...that speaks more to Miller's unique skills than it is to finding a pass rusher on the right side. Both are difficult to find)

But again, here we go with taking a player who is an All-Pro at one position and moving him to a different position to try to fix a hole and then leaving a gaping hole at the position he's vacating. There's a reason teams don't do that.I hear you Mo, but this isn't as quite a transition as moving Champ to where we can not speak of...

And true, Von has a very unique set of skills, which I think we need to use at the most important pass rushing position (RDE), IF we can't find someone servicable enough to play there. IF we do, then yes, leave things as they were.

[MHCBill]

Why would you move the sack leader from where he has led the team in sacks two years in a row? Makes no sense. The logical solution is to get a new RDE...I agree, if you have someone at that RDE who can be a threat as Doom was, otherwise I feel our best pass rush specialist should be coming from the QB's blindside.

[MHCBill]

Thank you. I honestly don't get this notion that we will just cease to have a pass rush without Doom. While the replacement we find likely won't be AS good, I have no doubt we can find someone serviceable.

I'm really getting tired of the "teams will just double Miller" argument. You know what? I hope teams do double him. Whenever you can get the offense (who already has a 10-11 disadvantage of linemen/skill players because of the QB) to commit two of their guys to one of yours, your defense is at a pretty big advantage. I'm sure whoever we sign/draft to replace Doom will reap the rewards of Miller getting all the attention, and once that guy starts doing that, teams will have to focus on him, freeing up Miller more to do his thing.Great point, and that would be the perfect scenario. Maybe I'm being a pessimist, but I'm very worried that we won't find anyone servicable to play RDE on pass rush downs.

[TXBRONC]

I hope we do, but if we don't I'm partial to putting our best rusher at RDE on PASS RUSHING DOWNS. To each their own...

I don't see how shifting Miller to RDE on makes him productive. If Dumervil isn't replaced teams are shift protection to whatever side of the field Miller happens to be on. Also by putting him at RDE who Miller be going up against? More times than not it will means he will be going up against the oppositions best offensive lineman.

[SR]

Great point, and that would be the perfect scenario. Maybe I'm being a pessimist, but I'm very worried that we won't find anyone servicable to play RDE on pass rush downs.

Von Miller is a linebacker. He has other responsibilities besides rushing the passer. Von also drops in to coverage. Putting him at RDE to rush the passer at 240 pounds versus a 300 pound plus LT is asking your best pash rusher to basically sit out a play.

[MHCBill]

I can see what Bill is saying, but there is something else to consider. Yes, Von has switched sides to cause mis-matches and "force" their adjustments. But although Von would be coming from the majority of QB's blindsides, you are also then matching him up with the best OL on the other team. They aren't going to stop double teaming that block, but by aligning him to the RDE, you are adding skill to vs Von on those pass rushes.

Although I see the logic of putting on the blindside, I don't necessary believe "its the most important pass rushing side." It just has its blindside advantage.Fair enough... I think a lot of posts are right on. Von will probably be jumping back and forth a lot more next year, which is probably best. Harder for teams to prepare when you never know where he'll be coming from. Best case scenario, we hit gold and draft a stud pass rusher who blossoms into twice what Doom was.

[aulaza]

Seems like Bill is only talking about our nickel and dime packages where Von acts as a down lineman. In this scenario I would expect to see Miller and draft pick at DE and Wolfe and Ayers at DT (with significant rotation from guys like Jackson etc). Really I think Bill is just talking about where to line up in that scenario?

If so, I think its a little too early to say, and also I think it will be a moveable feast with guys lining up differently.

I think the double team argument is valid if we don't get enough production out of the rest of the line. Yes, hopefully the other rushers will be effective in one on ones, but if they aren't - well thats our pass rush pretty much nullified. I don't expect this to be the case though, I think we should be able to create pressure 3 on 3 if Von is double teamed (hopefully).

[MHCBill]

Von Miller is a linebacker. He has other responsibilities besides rushing the passer. Von also drops in to coverage. Putting him at RDE to rush the passer at 240 pounds versus a 300 pound plus LT is asking your best pash rusher to basically sit out a play.Not sure I get that point. RT's aren't over 300lbs?

Plus I know he's a LB and in our base 4-3 will be used as such, I'm only referring to nickel and dime situations when he will be rushing the passer.

[aulaza]

Von Miller is a linebacker. He has other responsibilities besides rushing the passer. Von also drops in to coverage. Putting him at RDE to rush the passer at 240 pounds versus a 300 pound plus LT is asking your best pash rusher to basically sit out a play.

He is talking about passing situations where we are in nickel or dime and Von acts as a DLineman.

[Superchop 7]

I can see what Bill is saying, but there is something else to consider. Yes, Von has switched sides to cause mis-matches and "force" their adjustments. But although Von would be coming from the majority of QB's blindsides, you are also then matching him up with the best OL on the other team. They aren't going to stop double teaming that block, but by aligning him to the RDE, you are adding skill to vs Von on those pass rushes.

Although I see the logic of putting on the blindside, I don't necessary believe "its the most important pass rushing side." It just has its blindside advantage.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

I like the formation (stacking Von over RDE) on obvious pass plays because the offense (in bodylanguage) tends to panic, they quickly get out of the play....you can have Von scrape back to the A gap or drop in coverage, the point is to blitz a safety from the left side, QB's tend to get the crap knocked out of them rolling into a blitz.

[SR]

Not sure I get that point. RT's aren't over 300lbs?

Plus I know he's a LB and in our base 4-3 will be used as such, I'm only referring to nickel and dime situations when he will be rushing the passer.

LT. Most LTs are bigger, faster, and better blockers than RT. they have to be.

[MHCBill]

LT. Most LTs are bigger, faster, and better blockers than RT. they have to be.That's a little different than your original post about being 300+ lbs... most LT's are better athleticaly, quicker feet, and better flexibility. In this case, size doesn't matter...

[weazel]

I think Von should be the replacement for Champ and Peyton as well.

[MHCBill]

I think Von should be the replacement for Champ and Peyton as well.Here we go again... trying to have a discussion about the utilization of our best pass rusher, not change the total makeup of a defense.

Jeez... now I know why so many people get annoyed with trying to have an open discussion about a simple thought.

[weazel]

Here we go again... trying to have a discussion about the utilization of our best pass rusher, not change the total makeup of a defense.

Jeez... now I know why so many people get annoyed with trying to have an open discussion about a simple thought.

take a deep breath... its just a joke bud. :beer:

[TXBRONC]

Thank you. I honestly don't get this notion that we will just cease to have a pass rush without Doom. While the replacement we find likely won't be AS good, I have no doubt we can find someone serviceable.

I'm really getting tired of the "teams will just double Miller" argument. You know what? I hope teams do double him. Whenever you can get the offense (who already has a 10-11 disadvantage of linemen/skill players because of the QB) to commit two of their guys to one of yours, your defense is at a pretty big advantage. I'm sure whoever we sign/draft to replace Doom will reap the rewards of Miller getting all the attention, and once that guy starts doing that, teams will have to focus on him, freeing up Miller more to do his thing.

You might not like the argument but there is of truth to it if don't find a suitable replacement. If I'm an offensive coordinator I'll take that chance if I don't think their RDE is capable of beating my LT.

[Simple Jaded]

Dumervil was a ProBowl pass rusher, replacing him will not bet that simple.

[weazel]

Dumervil was a ProBowl pass rusher, replacing him will not bet that simple.

I disagree, he was a situational DE. I think they will find someone in the draft who will be more rounded and not just a pass rusher.

[Simple Jaded]

I disagree, he was a situational DE. I think they will find someone in the draft who will be more rounded and not just a pass rusher.

I don't disagree at all, I'm just saying that replacing Doom won't be as easy as moving some pieces around.

[weazel]

I don't disagree at all, I'm just saying that replacing Doom won't be as easy as moving some pieces around.

okay, I thought you meant he wouldn't be easy to replace. He is replaceable, but yeah, it's not going to be as easy as just rearranging players. I have no doubt they will find someone to do as good or better in the position though.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't disagree at all, I'm just saying that replacing Doom won't be as easy as moving some pieces around.

as you said before... its not simply "we'll draft someone" to replace Doom. There is a reason he was able to get 17 sacks in a season, 10 sacks a season, and its not because that kind of production comes from every draft choice.

[Simple Jaded]

I love the dichotomy of being a fan, in one discussion you have fans debating whether or not to make moves in the draft because, after all, TD was found in the 6th, Meck in the 12th and Rod Smith undrafted.......in the next thread you have debates about whether or not a player taken seven years ago in the 4th is replaceable.

I think we could be looking back a year from now and find that Doom was much harder to replace than we thought but I also think the FO has already considered that risk as well. When all is said and done it may take a rookie, a vet FA or a player already on board.......it may take all the above.

But his contribution is replaceable.

[weazel]

I love the dichotomy of being a fan, in one discussion you have fans debating whether or not to make moves in the draft because, after all, TD was found in the 6th, Meck in the 12th and Rod Smith undrafted.......in the next thread you have debates about whether or not a player taken seven years ago in the 4th is replaceable.

I think we could be looking back a year from now and find that Doom was much harder to replace than we thought but I also think the FO has already considered that risk as well. When all is said and done it may take a rookie, a vet FA or a player already on board.......it may take all the above.

But his contribution is replaceable.

it's not all about sacks... rushing the QB or tiping the ball has just as much affect on the play. It's nice that dumervil had 11 sacks even though the majority were in the last couple minutes of the games when we were ahead by a couple TD's... Being counted on to stop the run helps a lot as well.

[Simple Jaded]

it's not all about sacks... rushing the QB or tiping the ball has just as much affect on the play. It's nice that dumervil had 11 sacks even though the majority were in the last couple minutes of the games when we were ahead by a couple TD's... Being counted on to stop the run helps a lot as well.

Hey I agree, but his hurries and tipped passes will be just as hard to replace as his garbage time sacks. It's the threat of another pass rusher they need to replace. The Broncos are not a better team than when they still had Dumervil, replacing him won't be easy.

[aulaza]

The garbage time sack thing is a myth. I thought it was true just on perceptions, then I looked into it found out most were actually relevant and some even game enders or changers

[Simple Jaded]

I did some digging too and found that 46.891% of all stats a made up.

[TXBRONC]

it's not all about sacks... rushing the QB or tiping the ball has just as much affect on the play. It's nice that dumervil had 11 sacks even though the majority were in the last couple minutes of the games when we were ahead by a couple TD's... Being counted on to stop the run helps a lot as well.

You couldn't have watched a single game to make statement like that. He also tied for the team lead in forced fumbles, I guess those all came in garbage time of blowout wins as well.

[TXBRONC]

I did some digging too and found that 46.891% of all stats a made up.

You can get numbers to say whatever you want them to say.