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View Full Version : The Destruction of Rome, tragic but wont be rebuilt in a day



Northman
08-28-2009, 12:41 PM
Timeline:


December 30th- Mike Shanahan fired after late season collapse.

December 30th- Cutler expresses displeasure over Shanahan's firing and the possibility of losing Bates.


I'm disappointed, I'm shocked, I'm not happy about it, I'm not pleased with it at all,


But to lose all of our offensive coaches, too, that would be a big thing. Guys like Jeremy (Bates), (receivers coach Jedd) Fisch, that would be a step back for us, in my mind."

*How any coach would be happy to hear that before being hired would concern me too.

January 13th- Josh McDaniels takes reigns of the Denver Broncos

February 27th- McDaniels entertains a trade offer for Matt Cassell, one in which ignites a fued between Jay Cutler and McDaniels.


So McDaniels plans to wait a couple of weeks, let Cutler simmer down and then attempt rapprochement sometime before the draft on April 25.


FRIENDS OF Cutler's say that if he believes in someone, he'll run through a wall for him; they say if Cutler thinks he's been wronged, he'll never forgive. Or forget. Even McDaniels said last Friday, "He may never love me, but hopefully he can come to respect me and what we're doing offensively."

*The bolded part is the most troublesome. Just like we had seen with the Rivers fiasco it was quite apparant that Jay never intended to try and work it out with McDaniels following the trade inquiry.


Then on Feb. 26, McDaniels says, one of the teams proposed a three-way trade in which the Broncos would give up Cutler for high draft choices they would then trade for Cassel. The next day McDaniels began exploring a trade for Cassel, but "we were late to the dance," he said; New England already had a deal with Kansas City. As evidence that the Broncos were not close to making the trade, McDaniels says he didn't discuss such a deal with owner Pat Bowlen, as he would have been obligated to do, and Bowlen concurs.

March 14th- Xanders and McDaniels meet with Cutler and Cook only to see Cutler walk out still not trusting McDaniels.


Regardless, the meeting on March 14 didn't come close to clearing the air or calming the rattled Cutler. At the end of it, McDaniels says, Cutler asked if he could have a few hours to think and then he'd call the coach. McDaniels told him, "Call me on my cellphone." But Cutler never called. Instead, Cook called Xanders and requested a trade.


McDaniels made it clear to the quarterback how the team will be run, and how Cutler was expected to fit into that plan. McDaniels reiterated the Broncos position that they have no intention of trading Cutler, but he also made it clear that all players are being constantly evaluated and could be traded if management thinks it will make the team better.

March 31st- Bowlen says that he and McDaniels have tried to get Jay to call
them back without any success and that they will honor Jay's trade request.

April 3rd- Jay Cutler is traded to the Chicago Bears for Kyle Orton and 2 first round picks and a 3rd.

Some great quotes from former players about feeling the sting but getting back up on the horse and proving the offenders wrong:


"Obviously, it's hard to follow in the footsteps like Elway, who the community loved," said Luke Hadden, who moved to Denver from New Jersey, where he worked for NFL Films. "Then you have guys like (Jake) Plummer and (Brian) Griese, who never came close to filling those shoes. Cutler has the talent to fill those shoes, but he doesn't have the personality that a guy like Elway would have."



Former Broncos tight end Shannon Sharpe remembers getting word Shanahan tried to trade him after Shana-han's first season as Denver's coach in 1995. Like Cutler, Sharpe investigated and found out it was true.
Sharpe, like Cutler, was furious, but didn't go public with his anger. He went out and caught 80 passes the next season and stuck around to help the Broncos win two Super Bowls.


"When you're in that situation and you don't realize it's a business, you're fooling yourself," Plummer said. "Everyone's tradable, everyone's releasable, everyone can be gone tomorrow.
"He has played his butt off. He doesn't deserve to be part of trade talk. But if you think every coach in the league wants you to be a starter, it doesn't work that way. Because every coach has his own style and does his own thing.


Elway recalled that twice in his career, he was at the center of trade firestorms. The first was in 1983, when he was drafted by the then-Baltimore Colts and forced a trade to Denver. The second came in 1991, when Broncos coach Dan Reeves discussed trading Elway with Washington Redskins coach Joe Gibbs. Elway said he found out about those talks and was upset, according to the report.

"I was very hurt, so I can understand what Jay was feeling. It's a trust issue," Elway said, according to the Post. "After some time, I had to get over it and move on. Although you don't forget, you realize this is a business.

"Jay couldn't get past it."




As we all know already, we know the score with Marshall so i wont bother with the timeline for him. Not too mention his destiny isnt quite settled yet anyway.

Ravage!!!
08-28-2009, 12:51 PM
In hindsight, Jay wasn't in town long enough to 'get past it.' Elway wsn't traded, so he had to get past it. I'm betting the Baltimor fans are saying the same thing we are about Jay, however. "He couldn't get past it."

CoachChaz
08-28-2009, 12:55 PM
Were we Rome prior to all this? I'm thinking more like Warsaw

Northman
08-28-2009, 12:55 PM
In hindsight, Jay wasn't in town long enough to 'get past it.' Elway wsn't traded, so he had to get past it. I'm betting the Baltimor fans are saying the same thing we are about Jay, however. "He couldn't get past it."

Of course he wasnt. Elway went to the boss, hashed it out with him and went about his business. There was no "I cant trust Dan Reeves, i want to be traded now" from John. In Jay's case, he never wanted to resolve the issue. Ive pointed to quotes from even his closest friends that say the guy is cant forgive and forget. Ive posted quotes from Shannon and John who said they just went out and did their thing.

Northman
08-28-2009, 12:56 PM
Were we Rome prior to all this? I'm thinking more like Warsaw

Well, compared to Oakland and KCtown yes. We were Rome. And why you bringing up World of Warcraft talk in here? jk :lol:

Requiem / The Dagda
08-28-2009, 12:59 PM
Go figure Chaz would pull the Warsaw card. ;)

CoachChaz
08-28-2009, 01:01 PM
Go figure Chaz would pull the Warsaw card. ;)

It's the first European city that I could think of that was a national capital, but still fairly insignificant

Tned
08-28-2009, 01:25 PM
North, I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but that seems a bit slanted against Cutler in its presentation. For instance, I didn't see where first the Broncos refused to say whether or not Cutler was still on the trade block, and then finally the PR department or a spokesperson said something very brief like, "Jay is the QB of the Broncos" and then the next day, McDaniels said the exact same sentence. Also, shortly after that, McDaniels was interviewed on TV, and said that Cutler was his QB, but that anyone on the team could be traded if it made the team better (something that as I recall wasn't prompted, and goes without saying, so didn't need to be said).

I have always said that I believe Cutler handled this immaturely, but I think the Broncos as an organization screwed the pooch in the way they mishandled things.

A reporter (can't remember which), claimed that a source said that McDaniels said Cutler was a drunk and not smart enough to pick up the offense. Might be a complete fabrication, but if it is true, it is not what a coach should be saying, UNLESS he is trying to force a player to force him into trading him.

topscribe
08-28-2009, 01:31 PM
In hindsight, Jay wasn't in town long enough to 'get past it.' Elway wsn't traded, so he had to get past it. I'm betting the Baltimor fans are saying the same thing we are about Jay, however. "He couldn't get past it."

Horrendously poor argument. There is nothing, but nothing, similar between the two . . .

-----

BigDaddyBronco
08-28-2009, 01:38 PM
Horrendously poor argument. There is nothing, but nothing, similar between the two . . .

-----

I think Jay could have got over it if he remained in town for another season, but his emotional immaturity made him not take that option.

dogfish
08-28-2009, 01:40 PM
so who's nero? mcdaniels, cutler, marshall, or bowlen?



:laugh:

Grover
08-28-2009, 01:42 PM
In defense of CoachChaz, Warsaw is a darn good analogy.

I was considering Council Bluffs, but that's not a capitol or in Europe.

Ravage!!!
08-28-2009, 01:42 PM
Of course he wasnt. Elway went to the boss, hashed it out with him and went about his business. There was no "I cant trust Dan Reeves, i want to be traded now" from John. In Jay's case, he never wanted to resolve the issue. Ive pointed to quotes from even his closest friends that say the guy is cant forgive and forget. Ive posted quotes from Shannon and John who said they just went out and did their thing.

with all do respect, north... you can't tell me your list of the transactions weren't put down with a lot of prejudice. I'm sure if I could find someone willing, they could put a list from the other perspective and it wouldn't look the same, despite all the time lines and quotes being accurate.

Elway's quotes were from AFTER he was still with the Broncos despite having trade rumors. He was hurt, but able to move on. Would had simply said the same thing had he been traded? Sure.. but he would have moved on while in washington... same as Cutler is moving on.

Northman
08-28-2009, 01:47 PM
North, I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but that seems a bit slanted against Cutler in its presentation.

Im not slanting anything. Ive always been down the middle on this issue but i do put the onus on Cutler for how he handled it. Ive always said that Jay should of done the right thing and went and proved McDaniels wrong for even taking a call about the trade. The quotes i posted from Shannon and John say the same thing and i do hold their comments to heart. Both of those guys have also said that Denver shouldnt of let Jay get away. However, when the player stops talking to you it leaves you with very little else to work with. Much like what we are seeing with Brandon now.


For instance, I didn't see where first the Broncos refused to say whether or not Cutler was still on the trade block, and then finally the PR department or a spokesperson said something very brief like, "Jay is the QB of the Broncos" and then the next day, McDaniels said the exact same sentence. Also, shortly after that, McDaniels was interviewed on TV, and said that Cutler was his QB, but that anyone on the team could be traded if it made the team better (something that as I recall wasn't prompted, and goes without saying, so didn't need to be said).

Ive actually provided a quote about that.


McDaniels made it clear to the quarterback how the team will be run, and how Cutler was expected to fit into that plan. McDaniels reiterated the Broncos position that they have no intention of trading Cutler, but he also made it clear that all players are being constantly evaluated and could be traded if management thinks it will make the team better.

From that bolded part it tells me if another team is willing to give up the farm for one player so that it makes the team as a whole better i would also listen to it. This isnt about fixing one little hole, we had MANY holes to fix on all sides of the ball. Jay was wanting McDaniels to be up front since he didnt like the whole "not knowing" part about the trade behind his back. So what does McD do? He lays it out on the table for Jay only Jay doesnt like the answer. As Jake Plummer pointed out, its still a business. And McD was brought in too win and if he felt that listening to a possible trade offer could help this team than thats up to him. He live and dies with the decisions he makes but along with that comes the reality that Jay Cutler handled it very poorly considering he made statements that he plays for "players and teammates" and not "coaches".


I have always said that I believe Cutler handled this immaturely, but I think the Broncos as an organization screwed the pooch in the way they mishandled things.

The only thing i believe they screwed up on was considering trading Jay. But again, if a team is out there ready to part with picks and a QB who McD is familiar with to better the team in the long run i cant really blame McD for fielding offers. Wouldnt of been my first choice as Jay is far better talent wise in my mind but again, too many holes there and the expectations to win are very high.


A reporter (can't remember which), claimed that a source said that McDaniels said Cutler was a drunk and not smart enough to pick up the offense. Might be a complete fabrication, but if it is true, it is not what a coach should be saying, UNLESS he is trying to force a player to force him into trading him.

I have not seen that quote anywhere but if you can find it, post it. If thats the case that is poor judgement on McD. However, i do also know that Kaylore spent some quality time investigating Jay's irresponsibility of getting loaded a night before the game (I believe Kaylore pointed to the 2nd raider game as reference). Whether or not Jay can pick up the playbook i would have to say i doubt that is true.

Northman
08-28-2009, 01:49 PM
Elway's quotes were from AFTER he was still with the Broncos despite having trade rumors. He was hurt, but able to move on.

True, however when hearing of the trade rumors John went straight to the man to clear it up. No agent, just a man to man talk with Bowlen.

Ravage!!!
08-28-2009, 01:52 PM
Horrendously poor argument. There is nothing, but nothing, similar between the two . . .

-----

TOp.. .. you always try to pull this crap.

The Baltimore fans felt the same about John as the Denver fans are feeling about Jay. John couldn't get past his problems with the coach in Baltimore, thus he would NOT play for them. THEY (the fans) called him immature and a baby. They called him spoiled, they called him arrogant, and STILL TO THIS DAY dislike him because of his actions. THAT is exactly the same as here. Just because the reasons for John's refusal to play in Baltimore are different, does NOT make the "argument" different (even when it wasn't an argument).

TWO... John made the statement (and I quote from the listed quotes) ""I was very hurt, so I can understand what Jay was feeling. It's a trust issue," Elway said, according to the Post. "After some time, I had to get over it and move on. Although you don't forget, you realize this is a business."

AFTER SOME TIME.. thus he's saying even while in Denver and working with Reeves, it took TIME for him to forgive, forget, and move on.. and even though you don't forget.. you realize its a business. He was able to do that WHILE in Denver and while in the same city with the coach that tried to trade him. The difference being, HE (john) was still in Denver while LEARNING and having his TIME (as he said ) to get over and move on. Our situation the coach DID trade him (despite the reasons why) and Jay is now learning to move on... but in a different city... just as John would have had he been traded to washington.

:lol:

I'm the BIGGEST effing Elway fan there is, but I AM able to see that there are similarities, despite them not being IDENTICAL. THere are similarities in the ways the fans react and how they perceive situations with players, trades, and/or whatevers.

Simple Jaded
08-28-2009, 02:25 PM
There are four sides to this story:

The Broncos/McDaniels side.

Jay Cutler's side.

The truth.

And what little Pat Bowlen remembers.

I think the slant of this thread has the 1st option covered pretty well.......

dogfish
08-28-2009, 02:58 PM
hey link, you wanna be nero?

Northman
08-28-2009, 03:00 PM
hey link, you wanna be nero?

What the hell you doing clay? Hijacking my thread. Dont make me bring the smackdown on you ass!


http://www.sizemore.freeuk.com/MisterSmith.gif

topscribe
08-28-2009, 03:00 PM
TOp.. .. you always try to pull this crap.

The Baltimore fans felt the same about John as the Denver fans are feeling about Jay. John couldn't get past his problems with the coach in Baltimore, thus he would NOT play for them. THEY (the fans) called him immature and a baby. They called him spoiled, they called him arrogant, and STILL TO THIS DAY dislike him because of his actions. THAT is exactly the same as here. Just because the reasons for John's refusal to play in Baltimore are different, does NOT make the "argument" different (even when it wasn't an argument).

TWO... John made the statement (and I quote from the listed quotes) ""I was very hurt, so I can understand what Jay was feeling. It's a trust issue," Elway said, according to the Post. "After some time, I had to get over it and move on. Although you don't forget, you realize this is a business."

AFTER SOME TIME.. thus he's saying even while in Denver and working with Reeves, it took TIME for him to forgive, forget, and move on.. and even though you don't forget.. you realize its a business. He was able to do that WHILE in Denver and while in the same city with the coach that tried to trade him. The difference being, HE (john) was still in Denver while LEARNING and having his TIME (as he said ) to get over and move on. Our situation the coach DID trade him (despite the reasons why) and Jay is now learning to move on... but in a different city... just as John would have had he been traded to washington.

:lol:

I'm the BIGGEST effing Elway fan there is, but I AM able to see that there are similarities, despite them not being IDENTICAL. THere are similarities in the ways the fans react and how they perceive situations with players, trades, and/or whatevers.

I don't know what "crap" you're talking about. I'm interested in the truth.
That is all.


I was referring to your comment about Elway's Baltimore incident. There was
nothing similar between that and Jay's situation. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. McDaniels
was not previously a bitter enemy to Jay's father. Elway announced his
intentions to Irsay before he was ever drafted, then followed through with it.

I would not have played for an enemy of my dad's, either. Yet I seriously
doubt that I would have responded to McDaniels as Cutler did, already being
contracted with the team.

Regarding Elway's dispute with Reeves, yes, I can see where he could have
some empathy there. The difference is, Elway was mature enough to see it
through. Cutler wasn't.

-----

Simple Jaded
08-28-2009, 03:09 PM
hey link, you wanna be nero?

Is Nero a BAMF?.......

JetsFanNYC
08-28-2009, 03:17 PM
How young is too young to Coach in the NFL? Now we know. Look at Josh McDaniels. There's a reason why more experienced and older individuals comonly coached NFL teams. It's a mix of both their knowledge of the sport on the field and off the field. If you're under 40 and applying to be a head coach, you better have a serious resume. McDaniels is going to be first example of a team that bended a little too far in this department and got bit in the ass. This team is on a run away destruction path right now. One year ago, ask any NFL fan who were the franchise faces of the Denver Broncos. Cutler and Marshall. Now they're gonna loose both for next to no good reason. And how old is too old to own a NFL team? However old Pat Bowlen is, is too old. The whole thing was ridiculous. You have great offense and a crap defense so you fire the head coach and offensive coordinator and bring in a new offensive scheme and exile the QB. And then the first pick in the draft is an offensive player. Nothing they have done since the end of last season has made sense.

Sad sad stuff.

CoachChaz
08-28-2009, 03:30 PM
Anyone have one of these crystal balls they can sell me?

Thnikkaman
08-28-2009, 03:48 PM
How young is too young to Coach in the NFL? Now we know. Look at Josh McDaniels. There's a reason why more experienced and older individuals comonly coached NFL teams. It's a mix of both their knowledge of the sport on the field and off the field. If you're under 40 and applying to be a head coach, you better have a serious resume. McDaniels is going to be first example of a team that bended a little too far in this department and got bit in the ass. This team is on a run away destruction path right now. One year ago, ask any NFL fan who were the franchise faces of the Denver Broncos. Cutler and Marshall. Now they're gonna loose both for next to no good reason. And how old is too old to own a NFL team? However old Pat Bowlen is, is too old. The whole thing was ridiculous. You have great offense and a crap defense so you fire the head coach and offensive coordinator and bring in a new offensive scheme and exile the QB. And then the first pick in the draft is an offensive player. Nothing they have done since the end of last season has made sense.

Sad sad stuff.

Why don't you worry about how your team will never get over on the Patriots. Or how without Favre behind Center last year, you wouldn't have Sanchez this year. We'll be fine here in Denver. But thank you for passing judgment on a head coach who has yet to coach a regular season game.

Oh, and don't tell us how bad we are in the preseason. Last year the Lions went 4-0 and you guys went 3-1 and look where that got you.
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dogfish
08-28-2009, 03:52 PM
What the hell you doing clay? Hijacking my thread. Dont make me bring the smackdown on you ass!


http://www.sizemore.freeuk.com/MisterSmith.gif


yea, yea, yea. . . . :laugh:





Anyone have one of these crystal balls they can sell me?

you got fifty bucks?

JetsFanNYC
08-28-2009, 04:02 PM
Why don't you worry about how your team will never get over on the Patriots. Or how without Favre behind Center last year, you wouldn't have Stafford this year. We'll be fine here in Denver. But thank you for passing judgment on a head coach who has yet to coach a regular season game.

Oh, and don't tell us how bad we are in the preseason. Last year the Lions went 4-0 and you guys went 3-1 and look where that got you.
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Sanchez... not Stafford

Thnikkaman
08-28-2009, 04:05 PM
Sanchez... not Stafford

Corrected. I get the Jets and Lions confused sometimes since they are both crappy teams from the north.

JetsFanNYC
08-28-2009, 04:09 PM
Corrected. I get the Jets and Lions confused sometimes since they are both crappy teams from the north.

Jets are in the East..

OMorange&blue
08-28-2009, 04:16 PM
Jets are in the East..

hmm. Good point. I noticed you didn't bother refuting how much the jets suck. Wise strategy.

Day1BroncoFan
08-28-2009, 04:17 PM
hmm. Good point. I noticed you didn't bother refuting how much the jets suck. Wise strategy.

Your avy is hilarious. :lol:

Thnikkaman
08-28-2009, 04:18 PM
Jets are in the East..

If you want to go tit for tat, the Jets are in the North East compared to the Broncos. And wait for this one. So is Detroit.

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Thnikkaman
08-28-2009, 04:19 PM
hmm. Good point. I noticed you didn't bother refuting how much the jets suck. Wise strategy.

Thanks for joining us OMo. :salute:

NightTrainLayne
08-28-2009, 04:31 PM
Smack Forum's thatawway fellas --------->

Tned
08-28-2009, 09:46 PM
I have not seen that quote anywhere but if you can find it, post it. If thats the case that is poor judgement on McD. However, i do also know that Kaylore spent some quality time investigating Jay's irresponsibility of getting loaded a night before the game (I believe Kaylore pointed to the 2nd raider game as reference). Whether or not Jay can pick up the playbook i would have to say i doubt that is true.

Well, it's everyone's favorite whipping girl, reporter.



Cutler 'Alcohol' Comment Resurfaces on Fox31 Blog (http://www.broncosforums.com/blog/The_Trenches/entry/view/26287/cutler_alcohol_comment_resurfaces_on_fox31_blog)

Friday, March 27, 2009
Posted By Mike Florio (http://www.broncosforums.com/blog/The_Trenches/author/mflorio.tsn) 2:44 PM

Earlier this week, Josina Anderson of FOX31 in Denver posted an eyebrow-raising item regarding Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler.
Within a day, the most intriguing assertion had been removed.

It's now back, with some mild clarification.
Here's the prior version (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/25/eyebrow-raising-cutler-report-gets-expunged/):

"The source said there are concerns about Cutler's consumption of alcohol, and ‘that he's not that sharp.'

"That scared the crap out of McDaniels,' the source said."
Here's the new version (http://community.kdvr.com/_Source-Secrets-Inside-Cutler-Trade-Talks/blog/220410/96399.html):

"Two things that kept coming up were concerns about Cutler's alcohol consumption (given his diabetes) and ‘that's he not that (football) sharp.'

"‘That scared the crap out of McDaniels,' the source told me."

Though the text was removed with no explanation, the return of the assertion of alcohol (given his diabetes) and whether Cutler is (football) sharp carries a separate "additional note."

Here's the additional note (http://community.kdvr.com/_ADDITIONAL-NOTE/blog/222517/96399.html?b=): "A portion of what was written in the ‘Secrets Inside the Cutler Trade talks' blog was briefly removed by our web supervisors to review for additional clarity. That portion has been resubmitted subsequent to this process. It is important to note, this portion was not briefly removed out of doubt of the primary source's information."
Duh. In our assessment, the information was removed not because anyone doubted the source's information (which Anderson still takes great pains to point out isn't an assertion of fact by FOX31) but because it "scared the crap" out of someone who thought FOX31 might take a lawsuit.

Thus, the language was scrubbed out of the entry quietly, presumably in the hopes that no one would notice it was ever there. The fact that the cat got out of the bag might have been a factor in the decision to re-post the information.

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/The_Trenches/entry/view/26287/cutler_alcohol_comment_resurfaces_on_fox31_blog




The first thing the source wanted to emphasize without hesitation was the fact that McDaniels definitely had his hand in the cookie jar.

Even though McDaniels characterized the Cutler trade talks as just “conversations,” in a recent interview with the NFL Network, and said that, “there wasn’t anything that we were trying to push hard to get through,” my source begged to differ in unbridled amusement.

"[Denver] was definitely negotiating. They were trying to get a trade in place and there is no doubt about that," said the league source.

“From Minnesota to Detroit to Tampa, although they got in the game late, Denver was trying to get something in place.”

As for why McDaniels was so hard pressed to roll Cutler out on the next Rocky Mountain train to “Anywhere but Here-land” my source (with primary knowledge of these conversations) said there were consistent themes in the coach’s concerns about Cutler.

(Again this was relayed to my ears, from their ears. The following is what was heard by my source in these trade whispers, not what FOX31 cites as definite facts about Cutler.)

Two things that kept coming up were concerns about Cutler's alcohol consumption (given his diabetes) and "that's he not that (football) sharp."

"That scared the crap out of McDaniels,” the source told me.

The source expanded their perspective of their concerns of Cutler learning and working in the Broncos’ new offensive scheme.

"This is a very complex situation. You have to be so smart to play his [McDaniels’] offense. [Tom] Brady and [Matt] Cassel are exceedingly smart quarterbacks. They are not the best athletes in the world but they both make really intelligent decisions. Cutler has a canon for an arm, but he doesn’t manage the game like those guys in critical situations. Brady and Cassel are workaholics. They have the stature, and they have the ability,” said the source.

http://community.kdvr.com/_Source-Secrets-Inside-Cutler-Trade-Talks/blog/220410/96399.html

So, it's a "source", so who knows. Josina could have made the whole thing up, or McDaniels could have said it, but when you combine it with some of the other statements from McDaniels where it seemed he was playing hardball, one could see behavior that could have been intended to force Cutler to demand out of Denver, knowing that Bowlen likely wouldn't be eager to trade him.

Northman
08-29-2009, 12:27 AM
Well, it's everyone's favorite whipping girl, reporter.







So, it's a "source", so who knows. Josina could have made the whole thing up, or McDaniels could have said it, but when you combine it with some of the other statements from McDaniels where it seemed he was playing hardball, one could see behavior that could have been intended to force Cutler to demand out of Denver, knowing that Bowlen likely wouldn't be eager to trade him.


Well, as i said. Kaylore pointed out to events where Cutler got loaded before the Raider game which isnt a very smart move for a guy with his diabete problem let alone a night before a game. However, Josina is the only one to take this angle and it was never verified nor expanded upon by any other news outlets. Im always skeptical when reporters come out of the woodwork with "sources" but choose not to reveal them. Unlike reports from the individuals involved (Bowlen, McDaniels, Cutler, etc) when it comes to "supposed" third party hearsay without any identity you have to take it with a grain of salt.

NightTrainLayne
08-29-2009, 10:11 AM
Tubby (Retired Member 007 I think) "reported" it several times, that he had friends who saw Cutler out drinking and partying the night before games. Tubby lives in Denver.

I also believe that someone over at the Mane said the same thing, but can't remember who it was now.

This was before the Josina story, and I didn't lend it too much credence because it was hearsay. We haven't talked about it in months now, but Tubby says his friend has pictures with Cutler at the bar the night before a game. Still hearsay, but where there's smoke there's usually some fire.

Ravage!!!
08-29-2009, 10:14 AM
Still hearsay, but where there's smoke there's usually some fire.

Generally, but not when it comes to athletes/celebrities. Most of the time, where there is smoke, its just someone blowing smoke up your ass.

Ravage!!!
08-29-2009, 10:17 AM
Well, as i said. Kaylore pointed out to events where Cutler got loaded before the Raider game which isnt a very smart move for a guy with his diabete problem let alone a night before a game. However, Josina is the only one to take this angle and it was never verified nor expanded upon by any other news outlets. Im always skeptical when reporters come out of the woodwork with "sources" but choose not to reveal them. Unlike reports from the individuals involved (Bowlen, McDaniels, Cutler, etc) when it comes to "supposed" third party hearsay without any identity you have to take it with a grain of salt.

well.. sometimes the most informative sources are those that don't want to be identified as a source. You can use my words, but you can't use my name.

If you don't believe the writer has a source, then you must believe they are making the story up. That may be the case with some writers (such as this girl), but generally if its a well known columnist they aren't just making things up (talking about the other article that was posted using a ESPN writer, Reilly)....and at they same time want to be SURE to keep that source for future inside scoops.

Northman
08-29-2009, 10:34 AM
well.. sometimes the most informative sources are those that don't want to be identified as a source. You can use my words, but you can't use my name.

If you don't believe the writer has a source, then you must believe they are making the story up. That may be the case with some writers (such as this girl), but generally if its a well known columnist they aren't just making things up (talking about the other article that was posted using a ESPN writer, Reilly)....and at they same time want to be SURE to keep that source for future inside scoops.


Unfortuantely, its still hearsay and without any proof to back it up it doesnt come off credible no matter who the writer is.

Ravage!!!
08-29-2009, 10:41 AM
Unfortuantely, its still hearsay and without any proof to back it up it doesnt come off credible no matter who the writer is.

I don't htink thats true at all. I think most people look very much into who the writer is on whether or not they believe the story.

People around here are all over Schefter's jock. If he said it, people would believe it without having to hear a source's name (and her RARELY mentions a source's name). Reilly isn't a hack, and isn't going to make things up.

Its either one way or the other. If you think the writer would make things up, then you don't have to believe whats said. If you know/feel the writer himself is credible enough not to simply make stuff up, then you have to believe whats written. You can't have it both ways.

Northman
08-29-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't htink thats true at all. I think most people look very much into who the writer is on whether or not they believe the story.

People around here are all over Schefter's jock. If he said it, people would believe it without having to hear a source's name. Reilly isn't a hack, and isn't going to make things up.

Its either one way or the other. If you think the writer would make things up, then you don't have to believe whats said. If ou know/feel the writer himself is credible enough not to simply make stuff up, then you have to believe whats written. You can't have it both ways.


Actually you can. Not every writer is going to be spot on about every article he writes. And that goes for all of them. But generally, and NTL has already pointed this out when its an article that has not been backed up by any other writer i believe it to be pure speculation. Its not so much that i dont believe Reilly, its just that i dont believe his "sources" if they indeed do exist. It doesnt matter what topic it is when a source doesnt want to come forward and put their name on it i will most definitely doubt it until it is verified. Now, if somehow someway in the next few weeks more writers come out saying the same thing or these "sources" have a name put to it then i will give it far more credence. Until then, its just pure speculation with no backbone.

Ravage!!!
08-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Sources do NOT have to be named to be credible. THats just silly. Inside sources do not want to be named. That makes sense.

If it takes away from your believing, fine. But I do take a writer for his word when I know/feel he isn't going to make something up. Plus, a credible writer will NOT simply use a sources information if the source itself isn't credible. Its HIS name that is going to be associated with the story. This chic above isn't credible to me, but Reilly in the other story, is.

I don't htink he would use a source that isn't credible or is made up. Thats just flat out unprofessional, and he isn't unprofessional. Plus, I don't think for a MINUTE that it takes away from credibility because the source doesn't want his name used.

So I guess thats where we'll differ. To which their own :beer:

Tned
08-29-2009, 11:21 AM
Well, as i said. Kaylore pointed out to events where Cutler got loaded before the Raider game which isnt a very smart move for a guy with his diabete problem let alone a night before a game. However, Josina is the only one to take this angle and it was never verified nor expanded upon by any other news outlets. Im always skeptical when reporters come out of the woodwork with "sources" but choose not to reveal them. Unlike reports from the individuals involved (Bowlen, McDaniels, Cutler, etc) when it comes to "supposed" third party hearsay without any identity you have to take it with a grain of salt.

Well, more reporters than not use "league sources", including Schefter and all the Broncos' beat reporters.

That aside, she is the only one that reported it at the time, so who knows how accurate it is. Based on what I have read/heard, I am not even taking issue with McDaniels having those concerns, it would be more voicing them in such a manner that would get out to the press or Cutler, unless the goal was to drive Cutler out.

Anyway, the only reason I brought it up, or the fact you barely touched on the Broncos/McDaniels no-comment/we can trade anyone approach, was because while your timeline was technically correct, it appeared to be laid out in such a way that all blame lies with Cutler.

Northman
08-29-2009, 11:32 AM
Anyway, the only reason I brought it up, or the fact you barely touched on the Broncos/McDaniels no-comment/we can trade anyone approach, was because while your timeline was technically correct, it appeared to be laid out in such a way that all blame lies with Cutler.


Although i do hang more fault on Jay than i do McDaniels i did point out that McDaniels should of never considered trading Jay. How one could come into a new team and think he needs a replacement at that position is baffling to me. However, i also understand that no one is going to offer a lot of picks or trades involving players who have no value.

Tned
08-29-2009, 11:37 AM
Also, I'm not sure it matters, this late in the game, but I know some of the respected national sports writers were claiming that the Broncos did, in fact, initiate trade talks and were not just 'taking phone calls'. I heard several on ESPN Radio or Sirius NFL radio, so I am not sure if I will be able to find similar printed qutoes, but I'm guessing they're out there.

I'm not trying to rehash the whole should he/shouldn't he have been traded, but when something lays out what appears to be a one sided view, even if accidentally, I tend to want to show that other side.

For instance, the fact that Cutler talked, around SB week, about how excited he was about working in McDaniels new offense.

How Bowlen told Cutler he was going to try to keep Bates (not sure exactly how it was phrased).

Along with a few of the other things I mentioned.

Tned
08-29-2009, 11:42 AM
I walked away from my computer with that last post half typed, so I started it before your last one.

I think Jay acted very immature, but based on what I saw, either McDaniels never was impressed with Cutler as his QB, or was so infatuated with the chance of getting 'his guy', he lost site of the big picture and the possible ramifications.

Further, anyone that has watched McDaniels' press conferences has seen this is a VERY confident, some what say cocky or egocentric, guy. On the one hand I really like that, because he makes up his mind to go a certain way and has so much blind faith in himself, that he goes forward, regardless of what critics are saying, because I believe he believes they aren't as smart as he is. I think that's a powerful attribute, but at times can also cause problems.

Based on what I have senn, I'm not sure McDaniels has it in his makeup to admit to having made a mistake, or really reach out to a player and say, "hey, my bad, he was my guy, I got caught up, but I really want you as my QB".

Northman
08-29-2009, 12:00 PM
For instance, the fact that Cutler talked, around SB week, about how excited he was about working in McDaniels new offense.

Im sure he was. But you cant go and expect a new coach to not look into everything possible to help better his club and not expect someone to come in with some trade proposals. McDaniels and company were actually confronted at the combine about a possible trade with Cutler but nothing was set in any kind of stone. When an offer was brought to the table he explored it which is something any coach would do especially a new guy.


How Bowlen told Cutler he was going to try to keep Bates (not sure exactly how it was phrased).

The key word there is "try". Ive seen a great many coaches come into a job situation and bring in their own guys. Maybe Bates didnt fit into McDaniels scheme of things. I would definitely say that Bowlen made a lot of statements he shouldnt have after firing Shanahan and that being one of them.

Tned
08-29-2009, 12:08 PM
Im sure he was. But you cant go and expect a new coach to not look into everything possible to help better his club and not expect someone to come in with some trade proposals. McDaniels and company were actually confronted at the combine about a possible trade with Cutler but nothing was set in any kind of stone. When an offer was brought to the table he explored it which is something any coach would do especially a new guy.

The key word there is "try". Ive seen a great many coaches come into a job situation and bring in their own guys. Maybe Bates didnt fit into McDaniels scheme of things. I would definitely say that Bowlen made a lot of statements he shouldnt have after firing Shanahan and that being one of them.

I agree with everything you said (including about Bowlen). My issue is that McDaniels either should have said nothing publicly, or come off less cocky and "i'm the boss". We ALL know that any player can be traded, but you don't have to say it on national TV when you are in the middle of 'repairing' relations with your QB, unless you have no plan desire to repair them.

Bowlen is the owner, McDaniels is the coach, so it is their choice, not ours, as to who the QB is. I have no problem with that. I think over time (the next 5-10 years) this will be one of those trades that you hear about constantly as a "what were they thinking when they traded ____" type trades, but only time is going to tell us if that is true.

So, while I think it was a bad move, the coach has to put on the field who he thinks he can win with. My ONLY real issue all along has been when people go to the "Cutler wouldn't return a phone call, he forced the trade", when we all know that was very, very late in the game, and much had gone down before that point, which we may never get all the details of. However, there was enough public statements from both sides to know that neither side handled it well, IMO. I put the greater responsibility on the head coach, because it is his JOB to get past these things and know how to deal with immature millionaires, because he will have to deal with them every year.

Poet
08-29-2009, 12:21 PM
Allow me to give you a better timeline.

All that crap is now in the past and nothing can be changed. Jay Cutler is a whiny baby, Shanahan could no longer cut the mustard as a coach, and now you have a new HC and a new QB. Your star WR is a moron, and you have a young talented team with great potential.

/thread.

Thnikkaman
08-29-2009, 12:49 PM
Look. A Bengals fan is making the most sense on a Broncos board. What has this world come to. :D

Poet
08-29-2009, 01:10 PM
Look. A Bengals fan is making the most sense on a Broncos board. What has this world come to. :D

Sometimes an outsider's perspective is best.

Hobe
08-29-2009, 01:45 PM
NorthMan you been thinking about this way to much!

You need a drink!:wine:

Northman
08-29-2009, 03:16 PM
NorthMan you been thinking about this way to much!

You need a drink!:wine:


I highly doubt ive been thinking about it too much. But your right, i could use a drink. :D

Tned
08-29-2009, 08:31 PM
I highly doubt ive been thinking about it too much. But your right, i could use a drink. :D

Yea, I think heavy drinking will be in order this season. I hope not, but I am afraid it will be a requirement.