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TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 07:11 AM
Freeney needs pull his head out of ass. If he thinks he's got leverage on Denver he's sadly mistaken.


Broncos seem likely to stick with Ayers at DE and draft a pass rusher

By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

Posted: 03/28/2013 12:01:00 AM MDT
Updated: 03/28/2013 01:25:37 AM MDT

It's looking more likely the Broncos could stand pat with Robert Ayers, knowing a pass rusher can be added in the first three rounds of the April 25-27 draft.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22887240/broncos-seem-likely-stick-ayers-at-de-and

MileHighCrew
03-28-2013, 08:05 AM
When Ayers was drafted I remember the talking heads saying it might take a few years but he might be the best Dline player in that draft. Not sure that will happen, but he might get his chance to prove his critics wrong

BeefStew25
03-28-2013, 08:13 AM
He is an upgrade vs the run, right? Hal?

TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 08:17 AM
When Ayers was drafted I remember the talking heads saying it might take a few years but he might be the best Dline player in that draft. Not sure that will happen, but he might get his chance to prove his critics wrong

He's already had the opportunity. The last he's been back in a 4-3 and all it's produced in those two years is 5.0 sacks and in total for four years 6.5 sacks. If Denver has to go with Ayers then it doesn't becomes highly likely that Denver will have to see if they can find a pass rusher in the draft.

claymore
03-28-2013, 10:14 AM
He's already had the opportunity. The last he's been back in a 4-3 and all it's produced in those two years is 5.0 sacks and in total for four years 6.5 sacks. If Denver has to go with Ayers then it doesn't becomes highly likely that Denver will have to see if they can find a pass rusher in the draft.

From my dumb, fat, and ugly perspective it seems like Ayers is always 1-2 steps short of sacking the QB. Im curious as to how many hurries he has had. From watching this prior to the Doom situation, I think that he can be just as good. He just needs to turn something on. Whether its the killer instinct, some sort of technique I couldnt tell you. BUT, he is always almost there. Something minor is missing from his pash rush technique. If he can get it goint I think he will produce similarly as Doom did.

Ravage!!!
03-28-2013, 10:18 AM
From my dumb, fat, and ugly perspective it seems like Ayers is always 1-2 steps short of sacking the QB. Im curious as to how many hurries he has had. From watching this prior to the Doom situation, I think that he can be just as good. He just needs to turn something on. Whether its the killer instinct, some sort of technique I couldnt tell you. BUT, he is always almost there. Something minor is missing from his pash rush technique. If he can get it goint I think he will produce similarly as Doom did.

But that IS the difference between the top pass rushers and the "almost there's"... the speed. Most probably that exploding first step. I don't think it's something "minor" at all, he just doesn't have it. MANY players can "almost" get there. That's why they say "The NFL is a game of inches." If he's a full step away, then that like saying 1 corner is a step slower than the WR, and we saw in the Baltimore game what happens when your CB is a step slower. Its a HUGE difference.

turftoad
03-28-2013, 10:30 AM
He is an upgrade vs the run, right? Hal?

I remember Hal. That was a loooong time ago.

claymore
03-28-2013, 10:41 AM
But that IS the difference between the top pass rushers and the "almost there's"... the speed. Most probably that exploding first step. I don't think it's something "minor" at all, he just doesn't have it. MANY players can "almost" get there. That's why they say "The NFL is a game of inches." If he's a full step away, then that like saying 1 corner is a step slower than the WR, and we saw in the Baltimore game what happens when your CB is a step slower. Its a HUGE difference.

Not many players almost get there as much as Ayers. He almost gets there on every play it seems. I think he can be as good, maybe better if you throw in the run defense.

Who knows, maybe we are better through subtraction this time.

chazoe60
03-28-2013, 10:43 AM
Ayers is better than people give him credit for. I do believe that Ayers is better against the run than Doom. Ayers is not a bad player at all.

TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 10:54 AM
From my dumb, fat, and ugly perspective it seems like Ayers is always 1-2 steps short of sacking the QB. Im curious as to how many hurries he has had. From watching this prior to the Doom situation, I think that he can be just as good. He just needs to turn something on. Whether its the killer instinct, some sort of technique I couldnt tell you. BUT, he is always almost there. Something minor is missing from his pash rush technique. If he can get it goint I think he will produce similarly as Doom did.

You really can't be serious about this Clay. I get it you don't like Dumervil but lets not leave reality or do the revisionist history garbage. He's had four different defensive coordinator and not a one of them could figure out if it's just a technique problem? That's bullshit and you know it. If it's a matter of killer instinct no that's not a minor problem it's big. There was the thought that moving back to a 4-3 defensive end would help Ayers because that is what he was in college and I guess high school but did it? No he's not always there. Ayers couldn't a journeyman pass rusher in Jason Hunter and rookie in Derek Wolfe who had never been a full time defensive end. Please something more objective rather than something that based off subjective dislike Dumervil.

TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 10:57 AM
Ayers is better than people give him credit for. I do believe that Ayers is better against the run than Doom. Ayers is not a bad player at all.

That doesn't do hell of a lot good in a passing league.

BigDaddyBronco
03-28-2013, 11:31 AM
Ayers looked a lot better last year, he just didn't get as much time to play as Doom did. If we can get a situational/3rd down pass rusher and have Ayers and Wolfe at DT on 3rd down we will be alright.

TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 11:44 AM
Ayers looked a lot better last year, he just didn't get as much time to play as Doom did. If we can get a situational/3rd down pass rusher and have Ayers and Wolfe at DT on 3rd down we will be alright.

The same thing was said about Ayers in 2011 when he was the starter. In 2012 Jason Hunter taken the starter's role away from Ayers and then he couldn't beat out Wolfe and that was for LDE. Now if he moves over to RDE that means he'll generally be taking on oppositions best lineman.

BDB if this comes to pass where Ayers is the starter then I hope you're right but I'm skeptical.

Superchop 7
03-28-2013, 11:54 AM
I like the direction, but you cant go past Okafor and expect production, so we must go DE in the 1st round. Ayers is solid but not spectacular. I think this is a smart move by the Broncos. A 9 tech needs speed and youth will give them speed.

chazoe60
03-28-2013, 11:57 AM
That doesn't do hell of a lot good in a passing league.

Well shit, let's just have 4 pass rushers and 7 CBs.

Ravage!!!
03-28-2013, 12:03 PM
Not many players almost get there as much as Ayers. He almost gets there on every play it seems. I think he can be as good, maybe better if you throw in the run defense.

Who knows, maybe we are better through subtraction this time.

Mmmm kay. I don't know how or why you think Ayers "almost" gets there more than any other player doesn't get there.......

Northman
03-28-2013, 12:15 PM
Ayers is better than people give him credit for. I do believe that Ayers is better against the run than Doom. Ayers is not a bad player at all.

Good support player, but not starter.

TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 12:27 PM
Well shit, let's just have 4 pass rushers and 7 CBs.

As North said he's good role player but not a good starter. To say he's better player than people think then why did he lose his job to a career journeyman and then a rookie? So he was so good that Fox and Del Rio didn't have him start? That seems a bit odd to me.

claymore
03-28-2013, 12:48 PM
Mmmm kay. I don't know how or why you think Ayers "almost" gets there more than any other player doesn't get there.......

Just from watching games. I have noticed it way before the Doom fiasco, and have stated that once he gets that "thing" that he is missing he could be a force.

smith49
03-28-2013, 01:48 PM
Mmmm kay. I don't know how or why you think Ayers "almost" gets there more than any other player doesn't get there.......

Just from watching games. I have noticed it way before the Doom fiasco, and have stated that once he gets that "thing" that he is missing he could be a force.



It's a valid point clay. The question that I think is more than likely a resounding 'probly NOT' is the problem here. I'm sure that made no sense but you get my drift. I hope he can step his game up, I know he has a great attitude about it, I just don't know that he can or ever will get that extra out of his game.

claymore
03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
It's a valid point clay. The question that I think is more than likely a resounding 'probly NOT' is the problem here. I'm sure that made no sense but you get my drift. I hope he can step his game up, I know he has a great attitude about it, I just don't know that he can or ever will get that extra out of his game.

All I can do is be positive about it. He has the potential from what ive seen. If DelRio can get him that extra 2 feet, we wont miss Doom IMO.

Joel
03-28-2013, 02:29 PM
Ayers is better than people give him credit for. I do believe that Ayers is better against the run than Doom. Ayers is not a bad player at all.
He's a quite GOOD LDE. Seriously, guys, I wish ya'll would stop acting oblvious to things that are common knowledge; I feel like an ass when reminding you the NFL isn't Madden:

LEFT defensive ends play STRONG side, where TEs demand they be that much better against the run. RIGHT defensive ends play WEAK side (i.e. no TE,) where LTs demand they be that much better against the pass, because LTs guard the QBs blindside and are therefore usually among a teams top pass blockers. So LDEs are usually a little bigger and slower than RDEs.

It's not quite apples and oranges, call it grapefruit and oranges, but criticizing an LDE for not being an RDE is like criticizing a FB for not being a HB: That's not his job, and trying to do it anyway would make him far worse at what IS his job. The NFL lists Ayers at 274 and Doom at 260; Ayers isn't "missing" anything that would make him a better RDE, Doom is: Fourteen pounds of mass.

When we drafted Ayers no one worried he was so weak against the run that he could only play third down, but even AFTER Dooms rookie year many here openly questioned whether great pass rushing justified paying $1 million/year for a guy on the sideline 83% of the game. Doom added 10 lbs. after that, and has improved against the run, but is still deficient, and not nearly as good as Ayers. For that matter, neither is Freeney; he's a pass rusher, which is why he plays RDE, not LDE.

This concludes todays episode of Reminding You of Things You Act Like You Forgot; join us tomorrow to examine why even in a passers league teams still run the ball down your throat unless you can stop them. :rolleyes:

All that said, unless we sign Abraham, Freeney or SOMEONE we better find another Doom in the draft. Ayers is an excellent LDE, but asking he be an RDE would be like asking Demaryius Thomas to play LB. I'm in the crowd hoping we get Abraham because he's the rare RDE who plays runs as well as passes, so he doesn't have to skip first and second down. Strange the cap era made one down players fashionable. :confused:

Northman
03-28-2013, 02:55 PM
All I can do is be positive about it. He has the potential from what ive seen. If DelRio can get him that extra 2 feet, we wont miss Doom IMO.


Wont happen but would be great for Denver if he did.

Northman
03-28-2013, 02:56 PM
He's a quite GOOD LDE. Seriously, guys, I wish ya'll would stop acting oblvious to things that are common knowledge; I feel like an ass when reminding you the NFL isn't Madden:

LEFT defensive ends play STRONG side, where TEs demand they be that much better against the run. RIGHT defensive ends play WEAK side (i.e. no TE,) where LTs demand they be that much better against the pass, because LTs guard the QBs blindside and are therefore usually among a teams top pass blockers. So LDEs are usually a little bigger and slower than RDEs.

It's not quite apples and oranges, call it grapefruit and oranges, but criticizing an LDE for not being an RDE is like criticizing a FB for not being a HB: That's not his job, and trying to do it anyway would make him far worse at what IS his job. The NFL lists Ayers at 274 and Doom at 260; Ayers isn't "missing" anything that would make him a better RDE, Doom is: Fourteen pounds of mass.

When we drafted Ayers no one worried he was so weak against the run that he could only play third down, but even AFTER Dooms rookie year many here openly questioned whether great pass rushing justified paying $1 million/year for a guy on the sideline 83% of the game. Doom added 10 lbs. after that, and has improved against the run, but is still deficient, and not nearly as good as Ayers. For that matter, neither is Freeney; he's a pass rusher, which is why he plays RDE, not LDE.

This concludes todays episode of Reminding You of Things You Act Like You Forgot; join us tomorrow to examine why even in a passers league teams still run the ball down your throat unless you can stop them. :rolleyes:

All that said, unless we sign Abraham, Freeney or SOMEONE we better find another Doom in the draft. Ayers is an excellent LDE, but asking he be an RDE would be like asking Demaryius Thomas to play LB. I'm in the crowd hoping we get Abraham because he's the rare RDE who plays runs as well as passes, so he doesn't have to skip first and second down. Strange the cap era made one down players fashionable. :confused:

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

rationalfan
03-28-2013, 03:09 PM
He's a quite GOOD LDE. Seriously, guys, I wish ya'll would stop acting oblvious to things that are common knowledge; I feel like an ass when reminding you the NFL isn't Madden:

LEFT defensive ends play STRONG side, where TEs demand they be that much better against the run. RIGHT defensive ends play WEAK side (i.e. no TE,) where LTs demand they be that much better against the pass, because LTs guard the QBs blindside and are therefore usually among a teams top pass blockers. So LDEs are usually a little bigger and slower than RDEs.

It's not quite apples and oranges, call it grapefruit and oranges, but criticizing an LDE for not being an RDE is like criticizing a FB for not being a HB: That's not his job, and trying to do it anyway would make him far worse at what IS his job. The NFL lists Ayers at 274 and Doom at 260; Ayers isn't "missing" anything that would make him a better RDE, Doom is: Fourteen pounds of mass.

When we drafted Ayers no one worried he was so weak against the run that he could only play third down, but even AFTER Dooms rookie year many here openly questioned whether great pass rushing justified paying $1 million/year for a guy on the sideline 83% of the game. Doom added 10 lbs. after that, and has improved against the run, but is still deficient, and not nearly as good as Ayers. For that matter, neither is Freeney; he's a pass rusher, which is why he plays RDE, not LDE.

This concludes todays episode of Reminding You of Things You Act Like You Forgot; join us tomorrow to examine why even in a passers league teams still run the ball down your throat unless you can stop them. :rolleyes:

All that said, unless we sign Abraham, Freeney or SOMEONE we better find another Doom in the draft. Ayers is an excellent LDE, but asking he be an RDE would be like asking Demaryius Thomas to play LB. I'm in the crowd hoping we get Abraham because he's the rare RDE who plays runs as well as passes, so he doesn't have to skip first and second down. Strange the cap era made one down players fashionable. :confused:

come on, man. even on a message board where "everyone" knows "everything" your post doesn't do much to encourage a dialogue. just reads like you satisfying your own ego.

people call me smug (and, sometimes, they're not wrong), but this takes the cake.

Joel
03-28-2013, 03:34 PM
come on, man. even on a message board where "everyone" knows "everything" your post doesn't do much to encourage a dialogue. just reads like you satisfying your own ego.

people call me smug (and, sometimes, they're not wrong), but this takes the cake.
It's only smug to tell people something WITHOUT realizing they already know it; I'm aware everyone knows it but disappointed so many talk like they don't. Ayers isn't an RDE, but he's a very good LDE. We all know what that means, so why do we keep debating whether he sucks because he doesn't get a dozen sacks a year or rules because he stops the run, like those are stunning novel revelations? What's to dialogue?

Northman
03-28-2013, 03:39 PM
It's only smug to tell people something WITHOUT realizing they already know it; I'm aware everyone knows it but disappointed so many talk like they don't. Ayers isn't an RDE, but he's a very good LDE. We all know what that means, so why do we keep debating whether he sucks because he doesn't get a dozen sacks a year or rules because he stops the run, like those are stunning novel revelations? What's to dialogue?

No, he's not very good. I think thats part of your problem.

rationalfan
03-28-2013, 04:47 PM
It's only smug to tell people something WITHOUT realizing they already know it; I'm aware everyone knows it but disappointed so many talk like they don't. Ayers isn't an RDE, but he's a very good LDE. We all know what that means, so why do we keep debating whether he sucks because he doesn't get a dozen sacks a year or rules because he stops the run, like those are stunning novel revelations? What's to dialogue?

no. the act of being smug is taking excessive pride in your own accomplishments/thoughts/ideas/actions/etc. that's how your post came off.

hey, there's nothing wrong with it. i mean, we're on a fricking message board ruled by people who recycle tired concepts.

but when you're complaining about people not remembering things that you label as being obvious facts it feels self-defeating to write it in a way that discourages people to read the info you're trying to get them to recall.

Joel
03-28-2013, 05:06 PM
I expressed pride in nothing (more the opposite,) certainly nothing EVERYONE knows but some seem to forget. If people forgot to breathe, too, reminding them wouldn't be bragging.

topscribe
03-28-2013, 05:12 PM
Don't we have anything better to do than to attack other posters?

Put a mirror in between you and him. Geez . . .
.

Nomad
03-28-2013, 05:22 PM
Perhaps since Ayers won't be playing second fiddle and more playing time, he'll step it up a notch. Just a thought.

Northman
03-28-2013, 05:57 PM
Perhaps since Ayers won't be playing second fiddle and more playing time, he'll step it up a notch. Just a thought.

Maybe. But my guess is he was playing second fiddle for a reason.

claymore
03-28-2013, 06:10 PM
Maybe. But my guess is he was playing second fiddle for a reason.

North,

You me and Rav need to all get on the same page. I feel like Im kissing my sister every time we tangle over Doom. As hot as that sounds, I dont like it.

CoachChaz
03-28-2013, 06:10 PM
Some people look at numbers and make assumptions. Those are the people whose opinions I ignore. I wont say Ayers WILL produce like Doom did, but I certainly think its a definite possibility. If you are going to ignore the defensive schemes, playing time restrictions and personnel contributors to the Ayers equation and just base your opinions on numbers and assumptions...please go to a thread for those that dont care about details. Thanks in advance

HORSEPOWER 56
03-28-2013, 06:14 PM
I think Ayers is hot garbage. He's not a starter in this league. For whatever reason either physical, mental, or a combination of both, he hasn't shown anything. For all the shit Jarvis Moss got, he was a better pass rusher than Ayers.

Let's look at it this way:

- Ayers is drafted in the first round and converted by Mike Nolan and Josh McDaniels to play OLB. He's pretty much a non-factor his rookie season, and only starts 1 game. Benefit of the doubt, he had never played OLB before.

- Year 2: He's even less of a factor after returning to his more "natural" DE position and is rapidly replaced by Jason Hunter as a DE. He starts 10 games amassing 39 total tackles and 1.5 sacks. He's often replaced by Mario Haggan or Jason Hunter in pass rushing situations.

- Year 3: He starts 13 games at his "natural" DE spot where he amasses an amazing 39 total tackles and 3 sacks (1.5 more with three more games started).

- Year 4: Jason Hunter takes his starting job in camp, JDR basically calls him lazy/unmotivated and relagates him to backup duties. When Hunter is injured and placed on IR, does Ayers step up? **** NO! Derek Wolfe is position converted from DT to DE and becomes the starting LDE while Ayers continues to ride the pine and only really sees action when someone needs a breather... Even as a situational player on the field with Von, Doom, and Wolfe in all-out pass rush situations, he still only managed 2 sacks.

So I ask you, is this clown our future at RDE? He's a worthless piece of garbage as a player that for all the hate that is dumped on Moreno for failing to live up to his draft stock, Ayers has pretty much avoided it based on some BS that Mike Mayock spewed about giving him 3 years. It's been 4, he still sucks, even as a backup...

Unless we do get lucky enough to land a stud RDE in the draft or manage to sign Freeney or Abraham and they get a second wind, Von will be our only real pass rush this year. Ayers sucks. I find it hysterical that people still have faith in this bum to be anything more than an overpriced backup. He's never proven SHIT. Moreno has injuries as an excuse for his lapses in production. Ayers has? Oh yeah, no dedication, no drive, and no talent. If we're pinning our hopes on Ayers to start at RDE, we're screwed. He's had every opportunity (4 years!) to prove he's starting material. He hasn't. He's not going to magically wake up and be a 7-10 sack guy this year. It just won't happen.

By comparison, Wolfe had 40 tackles and 6 sacks in his rookie year. He's not a super athlete, he just works hard every snap. Ayers doesn't and that's why he'll never be anything in this league but a backup. He won't be re-signed when his contract is up and will be lucky to be signed by another NFL squad.

Army Bronco
03-28-2013, 06:18 PM
I think Ayers is hot garbage. He's not a starter in this league. For whatever reason either physical, mental, or a combination of both, he hasn't shown anything. For all the shit Jarvis Moss got, he was a better pass rusher than Ayers.

Let's look at it this way:

- Ayers is drafted in the first round and converted by Mike Nolan and Josh McDaniels to play OLB. He's pretty much a non-factor his rookie season, and only starts 1 game. Benefit of the doubt, he had never played OLB before.

- Year 2: He's even less of a factor after returning to his more "natural" DE position and is rapidly replaced by Jason Hunter as a DE. He starts 10 games amassing 39 total tackles and 1.5 sacks.

- Year 3: He starts 13 games at his "natural" DE spot where he amasses an amazing 39 total tackles and 3 sacks (1.5 more with three more games started).

- Year 4: Jason Hunter takes his starting job in camp, JDR basically calls him lazy/unmotivated and relagates him to backup duties. When Hunter is injured and placed on IR, does Ayers step up? **** NO! Derek Wolfe is position converted from DT to DE and becomes the starting LDE while Ayers continues to ride the pine and only really sees action when someone needs a breather...

So I ask you, is this clown our future at RDE? He's a worthless piece of garbage as a player that for all the hate that is dumped on Moreno for failing to live up to his draft stock, Ayers has pretty much avoided based on some BS that Mike Mayock spewed about giving him 3 years. It's been 4, he still sucks, even as a backup...

Unless we do get lucky enough to land a stud RDE in the draft or manage to sign Freeney or Abraham and they get a second wind, Von will be our only real pass rush this year. Ayers sucks. I find it hysterical that people still have faith in this bum to be anything more than an overpriced backup. He's never proven SHIT. Moreno has injuries as an excuse for his lapses in production. Ayers has? Oh yeah, no dedication, no drive, and no talent. If we're pinning our hopes on Ayers to start at RDE, we're screwed. He's had every opportunity (4 years!) to prove he's starting material. He hasn't. He's no going to magically wake up and be a 7-10 sack guy this year. It just won't happen. Crap...you are probably right. I was kinda being optimistic about his play at times but its so far a few in between.

Nomad
03-28-2013, 06:26 PM
Maybe. But my guess is he was playing second fiddle for a reason.

True. With some more beef on the interior line, perhaps this works to his advantage. Oh well, he'll have his shot and I hope he excels.

slim
03-28-2013, 06:30 PM
Unless we do get lucky enough to land a stud RDE in the draft or manage to sign Freeney or Abraham and they get a second wind, Von will be our only real pass rush this year.

By comparison, Wolfe had 40 tackles and 6 sacks in his rookie year.

You kind of answered your own question. Most DL show tremendous growth in their 2nd and 3rd years. I guess they are hoping that Wolfe can pick up some of those sacks (I don't think 11 or 12 sacks is unreasonable for him).

Add in another part time player (maybe a rookie, maybe Freeney, etc), and you still have a pretty decent pass rush.

Northman
03-28-2013, 06:30 PM
North,

You me and Rav need to all get on the same page. I feel like Im kissing my sister every time we tangle over Doom. As hot as that sounds, I dont like it.

I do miss our cuddle time.

HORSEPOWER 56
03-28-2013, 06:32 PM
Crap...you are probably right. I was kinda being optimistic about his play at times but its so far a few in between.

Unfortunately, this amazing lack of production he's shown has been vs RTs and Guards. Let's see him line up every snap vs elite LTs and see how he fares. I'd be willing to bet his already lackluster performance gets even worse. He's not big, not overly strong, and has almost no pass rush moves. If he gained 30 lbs, maybe he could be a backup DT. Seriously, after 4 years of NOTHING with plenty of opportunity and playing with other strong pass rushers like Von and Doom, I find it hard to believe he'll blossom with even less help.

Northman
03-28-2013, 06:34 PM
Some people look at numbers and make assumptions. Those are the people whose opinions I ignore. I wont say Ayers WILL produce like Doom did, but I certainly think its a definite possibility. If you are going to ignore the defensive schemes, playing time restrictions and personnel contributors to the Ayers equation and just base your opinions on numbers and assumptions...please go to a thread for those that dont care about details. Thanks in advance

Stats play a part no matter who the player is and whatever position. Its never the be all end all but it does provide results for said player. But, i know for me i go by what i see on the field and base his stats off of that. Bottom line for me is he is pretty mediocre and really only a good backup and depth guy. Which, is needed but i think some people just make excuses for the sake of making them without truly seeing what is going on with the player's actual play on the field.

Northman
03-28-2013, 06:35 PM
I think Ayers is hot garbage. He's not a starter in this league. For whatever reason either physical, mental, or a combination of both, he hasn't shown anything. For all the shit Jarvis Moss got, he was a better pass rusher than Ayers.

Let's look at it this way:

- Ayers is drafted in the first round and converted by Mike Nolan and Josh McDaniels to play OLB. He's pretty much a non-factor his rookie season, and only starts 1 game. Benefit of the doubt, he had never played OLB before.

- Year 2: He's even less of a factor after returning to his more "natural" DE position and is rapidly replaced by Jason Hunter as a DE. He starts 10 games amassing 39 total tackles and 1.5 sacks. He's often replaced by Mario Haggan or Jason Hunter in pass rushing situations.

- Year 3: He starts 13 games at his "natural" DE spot where he amasses an amazing 39 total tackles and 3 sacks (1.5 more with three more games started).

- Year 4: Jason Hunter takes his starting job in camp, JDR basically calls him lazy/unmotivated and relagates him to backup duties. When Hunter is injured and placed on IR, does Ayers step up? **** NO! Derek Wolfe is position converted from DT to DE and becomes the starting LDE while Ayers continues to ride the pine and only really sees action when someone needs a breather... Even as a situational player on the field with Von, Doom, and Wolfe in all-out pass rush situations, he still only managed 2 sacks.

So I ask you, is this clown our future at RDE? He's a worthless piece of garbage as a player that for all the hate that is dumped on Moreno for failing to live up to his draft stock, Ayers has pretty much avoided it based on some BS that Mike Mayock spewed about giving him 3 years. It's been 4, he still sucks, even as a backup...

Unless we do get lucky enough to land a stud RDE in the draft or manage to sign Freeney or Abraham and they get a second wind, Von will be our only real pass rush this year. Ayers sucks. I find it hysterical that people still have faith in this bum to be anything more than an overpriced backup. He's never proven SHIT. Moreno has injuries as an excuse for his lapses in production. Ayers has? Oh yeah, no dedication, no drive, and no talent. If we're pinning our hopes on Ayers to start at RDE, we're screwed. He's had every opportunity (4 years!) to prove he's starting material. He hasn't. He's not going to magically wake up and be a 7-10 sack guy this year. It just won't happen.

By comparison, Wolfe had 40 tackles and 6 sacks in his rookie year. He's not a super athlete, he just works hard every snap. Ayers doesn't and that's why he'll never be anything in this league but a backup. He won't be re-signed when his contract is up and will be lucky to be signed by another NFL squad.

Well said.

Northman
03-28-2013, 06:36 PM
True. With some more beef on the interior line, perhaps this works to his advantage. Oh well, he'll have his shot and I hope he excels.

Unless we draft someone and they outplay him in camp. But yea, if he can manage to impress than more power to him. I would gladly welcome it.

CoachChaz
03-28-2013, 07:53 PM
I think Ayers is hot garbage. He's not a starter in this league. For whatever reason either physical, mental, or a combination of both, he hasn't shown anything. For all the shit Jarvis Moss got, he was a better pass rusher than Ayers.

Let's look at it this way:

- Ayers is drafted in the first round and converted by Mike Nolan and Josh McDaniels to play OLB. He's pretty much a non-factor his rookie season, and only starts 1 game. Benefit of the doubt, he had never played OLB before.

- Year 2: He's even less of a factor after returning to his more "natural" DE position and is rapidly replaced by Jason Hunter as a DE. He starts 10 games amassing 39 total tackles and 1.5 sacks. He's often replaced by Mario Haggan or Jason Hunter in pass rushing situations.

- Year 3: He starts 13 games at his "natural" DE spot where he amasses an amazing 39 total tackles and 3 sacks (1.5 more with three more games started).

- Year 4: Jason Hunter takes his starting job in camp, JDR basically calls him lazy/unmotivated and relagates him to backup duties. When Hunter is injured and placed on IR, does Ayers step up? **** NO! Derek Wolfe is position converted from DT to DE and becomes the starting LDE while Ayers continues to ride the pine and only really sees action when someone needs a breather... Even as a situational player on the field with Von, Doom, and Wolfe in all-out pass rush situations, he still only managed 2 sacks.

So I ask you, is this clown our future at RDE? He's a worthless piece of garbage as a player that for all the hate that is dumped on Moreno for failing to live up to his draft stock, Ayers has pretty much avoided it based on some BS that Mike Mayock spewed about giving him 3 years. It's been 4, he still sucks, even as a backup...

Unless we do get lucky enough to land a stud RDE in the draft or manage to sign Freeney or Abraham and they get a second wind, Von will be our only real pass rush this year. Ayers sucks. I find it hysterical that people still have faith in this bum to be anything more than an overpriced backup. He's never proven SHIT. Moreno has injuries as an excuse for his lapses in production. Ayers has? Oh yeah, no dedication, no drive, and no talent. If we're pinning our hopes on Ayers to start at RDE, we're screwed. He's had every opportunity (4 years!) to prove he's starting material. He hasn't. He's not going to magically wake up and be a 7-10 sack guy this year. It just won't happen.

By comparison, Wolfe had 40 tackles and 6 sacks in his rookie year. He's not a super athlete, he just works hard every snap. Ayers doesn't and that's why he'll never be anything in this league but a backup. He won't be re-signed when his contract is up and will be lucky to be signed by another NFL squad.

Partial truth and a bunch of assumptions

Dapper Dan
03-28-2013, 08:20 PM
I agree with Clay. Everytime I've paid attention to Ayers he's almost there. This isn't the same as a CB being almost there to break up a pass. A QB hurry is actually productive. Being almost there still counts for something. Doom was a good players, but we have to roll with what we have sometimes. Next man up is Ayers. He's not the same type of player Doom is. Doom was a speedy OLB/DE who had 20 sacks in college. Ayers was a DE/DT who had no business playing OLB. He won't be getting too many sacks. He'll be a TFL kind of player. I think we'll be okay. We'll draft a DE to compete for the job or we'll draft a DT to help out. Short is a good pass rushing DT. We still have a very good team.

MOtorboat
03-28-2013, 10:36 PM
Some people look at numbers and make assumptions. Those are the people whose opinions I ignore. I wont say Ayers WILL produce like Doom did, but I certainly think its a definite possibility. If you are going to ignore the defensive schemes, playing time restrictions and personnel contributors to the Ayers equation and just base your opinions on numbers and assumptions...please go to a thread for those that dont care about details. Thanks in advance

Ayers holds his edge well, but he doesn't have the elite burst I think would be needed to fill in full time on the right side. Playing on the left side he has the luxury of simply bull rushing while Miller does his thing. Wolfe at the UT on pass downs seems to make a lot of sense to me, but this team doesn't have a RDE right now.

TXBRONC
03-28-2013, 11:57 PM
It's only smug to tell people something WITHOUT realizing they already know it; I'm aware everyone knows it but disappointed so many talk like they don't. Ayers isn't an RDE, but he's a very good LDE. We all know what that means, so why do we keep debating whether he sucks because he doesn't get a dozen sacks a year or rules because he stops the run, like those are stunning novel revelations? What's to dialogue?

If he was a very good LDE he wouldn't have been demoted.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 12:23 AM
Some people look at numbers and make assumptions. Those are the people whose opinions I ignore. I wont say Ayers WILL produce like Doom did, but I certainly think its a definite possibility. If you are going to ignore the defensive schemes, playing time restrictions and personnel contributors to the Ayers equation and just base your opinions on numbers and assumptions...please go to a thread for those that dont care about details. Thanks in advance

It's possible that Ayers could possibly produce like Dumervil based on what? He was the starter in 2011 so what playing restrictions are you talking about?

MOtorboat
03-29-2013, 12:30 AM
It's possible that Ayers could possibly produce like Dumervil based on what? He was the starter in 2011 so what playing restrictions are you talking about?

If he's moved to RDE, instead of LDE his role completely changes. Denver has never seen him play RDE.

As Coach said....if you aren't interested in details...

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 01:34 AM
If he's moved to RDE, instead of LDE his role completely changes. Denver has never seen him play RDE.

As Coach said....if you aren't interested in details...

No shit genius they've never seen him play RDE. You call that a detail? Now instead of running your mouth tell me what information is available that would indicate he could make the switch? Since you're so up on the details put it out there? You don't having anything do you?

Joel
03-29-2013, 02:01 AM
Ayers holds his edge well, but he doesn't have the elite burst I think would be needed to fill in full time on the right side. Playing on the left side he has the luxury of simply bull rushing while Miller does his thing. Wolfe at the UT on pass downs seems to make a lot of sense to me, but this team doesn't have a RDE right now.
That's about the size of it.


If he was a very good LDE he wouldn't have been demoted.
He would if Del Rio thought he were loafing, especially since Wolfe's pretty good in his own right, and in some ways LDEs have more in common with UTs than with RDEs. On the weakside, DEs rarely need to slip between two blockers unless running a stunt (and asking Doom to stunt two guys who each have 50 lbs. on him is usually asking too much) but LDEs and UTs frequently must. Right defensive ends have help from the Sam against the run; LDEs are often on their own with no help but a Will who's usually covering a TE or back in the flat or over the middle. There's more to the defensive line, even defensive ends, than sacks.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 06:57 AM
That's about the size of it.


He would if Del Rio thought he were loafing, especially since Wolfe's pretty good in his own right, and in some ways LDEs have more in common with UTs than with RDEs. On the weakside, DEs rarely need to slip between two blockers unless running a stunt (and asking Doom to stunt two guys who each have 50 lbs. on him is usually asking too much) but LDEs and UTs frequently must. Right defensive ends have help from the Sam against the run; LDEs are often on their own with no help but a Will who's usually covering a TE or back in the flat or over the middle. There's more to the defensive line, even defensive ends, than sacks.

I don't need you to explain between RDE and LDE. Besides that your little diatribe doesn't answer the question why Ayers was demoted. The answer it pretty simple he wasn't better than Hunter or Wolfe so apparently he's not a very good LDE as you suggested otherwise he would have started.

Joel
03-29-2013, 07:22 AM
I don't you to explain between RDE and LDE. Besides that your little diatribe doesn't answer the question why Ayers was demoted. The answer it pretty simple he wasn't better than Hunter or Wolfe so apparently he's not a very good LDE as you suggested otherwise he would have started.
It does, by reference to the Del Rio quote others already cited: He thought Ayers was loafing in camp, and Hunter was working his butt off, so he made the switch. Who started in the playoffs?

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 07:35 AM
It does, by reference to the Del Rio quote others already cited: He thought Ayers was loafing in camp, and Hunter was working his butt off, so he made the switch. Who started in the playoffs?

Who started in the playoffs? That's dumb question because the answer the same guy played the entire season at LDE Derek Wolfe. You know the other guy that Ayers couldn't beat out.

MOtorboat
03-29-2013, 08:00 AM
No shit genius they've never seen him play RDE. You call that a detail? Now instead of running your mouth tell me what information is available that would indicate he could make the switch? Since you're so up on the details put it out there? You don't having anything do you?

Someone is being a dick this morning.

It was pretty simple. I laid out his strengths and said he doesn't seem to be quick enough to be a solid pass rusher. But since we haven't seen him on the right side, we don't really know, do we?

And the difference between the two positions in Denver's scheme is a major factor, which has nothing to do with him being demoted at LDE, so that is largely irrelevant in discussing whether he would work at RDE.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 08:20 AM
I think Ayers is hot garbage. He's not a starter in this league. For whatever reason either physical, mental, or a combination of both, he hasn't shown anything. For all the shit Jarvis Moss got, he was a better pass rusher than Ayers.

Let's look at it this way:

- Ayers is drafted in the first round and converted by Mike Nolan and Josh McDaniels to play OLB. He's pretty much a non-factor his rookie season, and only starts 1 game. Benefit of the doubt, he had never played OLB before.

- Year 2: He's even less of a factor after returning to his more "natural" DE position and is rapidly replaced by Jason Hunter as a DE. He starts 10 games amassing 39 total tackles and 1.5 sacks. He's often replaced by Mario Haggan or Jason Hunter in pass rushing situations.

- Year 3: He starts 13 games at his "natural" DE spot where he amasses an amazing 39 total tackles and 3 sacks (1.5 more with three more games started).

- Year 4: Jason Hunter takes his starting job in camp, JDR basically calls him lazy/unmotivated and relagates him to backup duties. When Hunter is injured and placed on IR, does Ayers step up? **** NO! Derek Wolfe is position converted from DT to DE and becomes the starting LDE while Ayers continues to ride the pine and only really sees action when someone needs a breather... Even as a situational player on the field with Von, Doom, and Wolfe in all-out pass rush situations, he still only managed 2 sacks.

So I ask you, is this clown our future at RDE? He's a worthless piece of garbage as a player that for all the hate that is dumped on Moreno for failing to live up to his draft stock, Ayers has pretty much avoided it based on some BS that Mike Mayock spewed about giving him 3 years. It's been 4, he still sucks, even as a backup...

Unless we do get lucky enough to land a stud RDE in the draft or manage to sign Freeney or Abraham and they get a second wind, Von will be our only real pass rush this year. Ayers sucks. I find it hysterical that people still have faith in this bum to be anything more than an overpriced backup. He's never proven SHIT. Moreno has injuries as an excuse for his lapses in production. Ayers has? Oh yeah, no dedication, no drive, and no talent. If we're pinning our hopes on Ayers to start at RDE, we're screwed. He's had every opportunity (4 years!) to prove he's starting material. He hasn't. He's not going to magically wake up and be a 7-10 sack guy this year. It just won't happen.

By comparison, Wolfe had 40 tackles and 6 sacks in his rookie year. He's not a super athlete, he just works hard every snap. Ayers doesn't and that's why he'll never be anything in this league but a backup. He won't be re-signed when his contract is up and will be lucky to be signed by another NFL squad.

Your timeline is a litte off. Ayers spent both 2009 and 2010 at linebacker and in the 2011 season he returned to his "natural" position. In that 2011 seasson he had 39 tackles and 3 sacks and 3 passes defended. Wolfe as rookie playing new position puts basically same amount tackles double sacks and two passes defended. I would sure like see the logic on how it is that Ayers could the job on blind side when he was outplayed by a rookie playing a new position.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 08:47 AM
Someone is being a dick this morning.

It was pretty simple. I laid out his strengths and said he doesn't seem to be quick enough to be a solid pass rusher. But since we haven't seen him on the right side, we don't really know, do we?

And the difference between the two positions in Denver's scheme is a major factor, which has nothing to do with him being demoted at LDE, so that is largely irrelevant in discussing whether he would work at RDE.

Yes you have been dick this morning but that's nothing new for you.

What I said is very relavent. It's only irrelvant to likes of you because you don't have anything that would even remotely suggest that Ayers can make the switch from LDE to being a pass rusher. What you posted is illogical horseshit. If he can't do the job against a right tackles now all of the sudden he's going to do it against left tackles which are generally a teams best offensive lineman. Saying that" well we don't know how he'll preform because LDEs and RDEs have different responsibilities" is just a plain stupid argument. Wolfe a rookie playing a new position at LDE put up six sacks while Ayers in the previous years put only three but hey have no idea if what Ayers could do at RDE. :rolleyes:

MOtorboat
03-29-2013, 09:08 AM
Yes you have been dick this morning but that's nothing new for you.

What I said is very relavent. It's only irrelvant to likes of you because you don't have anything that would even remotely suggest that Ayers can make the switch from LDE to being a pass rusher. What you posted is illogical horseshit. If he can't do the job against a right tackles now all of the sudden he's going to do it against left tackles which are generally a teams best offensive lineman. Saying that" well we don't know how he'll preform because LDEs and RDEs have different responsibilities" is just a plain stupid argument. Wolfe a rookie playing a new position at LDE put up six sacks while Ayers in the previous years put only three but hey have no idea if what Ayers could do at RDE. :rolleyes:

First of all, I fully said above that I don't think he can do it. That I don't think it's his strength. READ.

But if you can't understand that the LDE in Denver's scheme is asked to do something entirely different than the RDE in the scheme, then we can't really have a very good conversation about it.

That's not "horseshit logic," it's reality. And that seems to be what Denver is contemplating, per this article.

Now, the last time he DID play RDE, he had a bunch of sacks at Tennessee, so as I said :whoknows:

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 11:08 AM
First of all, I fully said above that I don't think he can do it. That I don't think it's his strength. READ.

But if you can't understand that the LDE in Denver's scheme is asked to do something entirely different than the RDE in the scheme, then we can't really have a very good conversation about it.

That's not "horseshit logic," it's reality. And that seems to be what Denver is contemplating, per this article.

Now, the last time he DID play RDE, he had a bunch of sacks at Tennessee, so as I said :whoknows:

Ah no not what the articles say. First it's speculation on Klis' part which is fine because I think he's one of the better beat writers at the D.P.


If Klis is correct Elway and Fox don't see Ayers as pass rusher but as a run stuffer. I've been talking about his ability to rush the passer. It looks like you're reading comprehension problems.

Who gives a rat's ass what Ayers did at Tennessee five years ago as RDE? That is definition of irrelvant. I don't what you're considering a bunch but IIRC Ayers had about five sacks senior year.

Finally since when does being a LDE in Denver's mean that you don't need the ability to rush the passer?

You do recall that when Denver was courting Manning it was speculated that one of things might attract to Denver was that their defense was built similarly to that of the Colts. I don't recall you ever challenging that. Also IIRC the Colts had two edges rusher that could get to the quarterback.

Dapper Dan
03-29-2013, 11:38 AM
What the hell does it matter? You two need to take the day off.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 12:03 PM
What the hell does it matter? You two need to take the day off.

It seem like the only times you post is to complain about other posters.

broncohead
03-29-2013, 12:07 PM
Ayers is not a pass rusher and NEVER has been. I hated the pick when we were a 3-4 team but thought he would improve moving back to a 43. So far I still hate the pick.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 12:16 PM
Ayers is not a pass rusher and NEVER has been. I hated the pick when we were a 3-4 team but thought he would improve moving back to a 43. So far I still hate the pick.

If we're looking for a pass rusher then I sure don't see him ever becoming that even if they move him to RDE.

Dapper Dan
03-29-2013, 03:00 PM
It seem like the only times you post is to complain about other posters.

Here's my last 15 posts.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521579-Broncos-seem-likely-to-stick-with-Ayers-at-DE-and-draft-a-pass-rusher?p=1917500#post1917500
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/516151-Broncosforums-2013-Mock-Draft-Anyone?p=1917487#post1917487
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/459814-2013-Draft?p=1917228#post1917228
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521895-Rookie-pass-rushing-options-for-Denver?p=1917227#post1917227
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521895-Rookie-pass-rushing-options-for-Denver?p=1917226#post1917226
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521895-Rookie-pass-rushing-options-for-Denver?p=1917214#post1917214
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/430760-Ryan-Nasib?p=1917151#post1917151
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521274-Elvis-Dumervil-took-(slightly)-less-to-sign-with-Ravens?p=1917080#post1917080
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521579-Broncos-seem-likely-to-stick-with-Ayers-at-DE-and-draft-a-pass-rusher?p=1917078#post1917078
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/516151-Broncosforums-2013-Mock-Draft-Anyone?p=1916407#post1916407
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/520556-Rumor-Is-Michael-Jordan-Signing-With-The-Bobcats-To-Break-The-Heat%E2%80%99s-Win-Streak?p=1916212#post1916212
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/516151-Broncosforums-2013-Mock-Draft-Anyone?p=1916187#post1916187
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/511061-2013-Free-Agency-Extravaganza!?p=1916186#post1916186
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/511061-2013-Free-Agency-Extravaganza!?p=1916165#post1916165
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/521274-Elvis-Dumervil-took-(slightly)-less-to-sign-with-Ravens?p=1916163#post1916163

Dapper Dan
03-29-2013, 03:02 PM
At some point people have to realize the other person isn't going to change their mind and stop replying. It just doesn't make sense to bicker for 2-3 pages with someone about the same thing saying the same points. You can't force someone to change their minds.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 04:59 PM
At some point people have to realize the other person isn't going to change their mind and stop replying. It just doesn't make sense to bicker for 2-3 pages with someone about the same thing saying the same points. You can't force someone to change their minds.

We don't need you to be the moral conscientious for every thread that you don't like the way the conversation is going. You have other options if you don't like the conversation. We were going back and forth about the topic of this thread who are to say how that conversation should play out? It's not your place to decide. Every time you don't what going on you have enter with some smart ass comment. What you have to say and how it comes arcoss doesn't make anything better.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-29-2013, 06:43 PM
He's already had the opportunity. The last he's been back in a 4-3 and all it's produced in those two years is 5.0 sacks and in total for four years 6.5 sacks. If Denver has to go with Ayers then it doesn't becomes highly likely that Denver will have to see if they can find a pass rusher in the draft.

He has never been a sack guy. Highly unlikely that that's what he was even drafted to do. He was drafted to be a stout run stuffer who can get a few sacks per year. He has done that. Now was top 20 pick too high? Sure. Put don't piss on him for a strength that he never had even before being drafted just cuz that's something that you think he should be doing. And not just you TX. I just used yer quote. It's quite a few here that share the opinion.

Obviously he isn't what Mayock et al touted him to be and I never thought he would be that good. But that's because this is a pass rush world. He did get "beat out" by a rook and Hunter. but both have more sack capabilities. Wolfe may have been a DT in college, but he had the highest sack totals for a DT in the draft.

ShaneFalco
03-29-2013, 07:16 PM
Ayers is alright, he just isnt an everydown DE. Von will get less sacks etc.

TXBRONC
03-29-2013, 08:05 PM
He has never been a sack guy. Highly unlikely that that's what he was even drafted to do. He was drafted to be a stout run stuffer who can get a few sacks per year. He has done that. Now was top 20 pick too high? Sure. Put don't piss on him for a strength that he never had even before being drafted just cuz that's something that you think he should be doing. And not just you TX. I just used yer quote. It's quite a few here that share the opinion.

Obviously he isn't what Mayock et al touted him to be and I never thought he would be that good. But that's because this is a pass rush world. He did get "beat out" by a rook and Hunter. but both have more sack capabilities. Wolfe may have been a DT in college, but he had the highest sack totals for a DT in the draft.

Although I'll never be able to find the quote I'm still sure McDaniels made some comments he expected Ayers to more of pass rusher. Maybe not double digits but closer to the range of what we got out of Wolfe.

Lancane
03-29-2013, 09:04 PM
Although I'll never be able to find the quote I'm still sure McDaniels made some comments he expected Ayers to more of pass rusher. Maybe not double digits but closer to the range of what we got out of Wolfe.

And you'd believe anything that McDaniels would have to say? We are talking about the same man who tried to trade Cutler for Cassel, then ended up with Orton. The same man who drafted Tebow in the first round and traded a first round pick for a second round pick and got squat in return? Not sure I'd consider anything he had to say, but that is just me.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-29-2013, 09:27 PM
Although I'll never be able to find the quote I'm still sure McDaniels made some comments he expected Ayers to more of pass rusher. Maybe not double digits but closer to the range of what we got out of Wolfe.

McDaniels is an idiot.

That said...there are also quotes from me on this board regarding Ayers and his lack of sacking prowess A non-expert, but huge Vols fan who said buyer beware and that I did want him...in round 3.

That really sounded worse than I wanted it to...but my point is that some regular dude such as myself knew he wasn't a sacker. McD should have too.

Lancane
03-29-2013, 11:29 PM
Robert Ayers was drafted on potential alone as a more traditional 4-3 defensive end. There is not one pre-draft scouting profile that eludes to him being able to get to the quarterback, nor had he shown flashes of such ability. To be quite honest, Ayers probably would have fallen into the second round because he was so lacking in that area.

Wolfe would be a better replacement for Doom then Ayers, hell...I'd start Unrein at that spot over Ayers!

Jsteve01
03-29-2013, 11:35 PM
and he never had a "bunch of sacks" as a Vol. I'm pretty sure he had like 8 or 9 his whole career , which is not impressive at all at the college level. Prior to that he'd seen spot starts. He is a very solid POA guy who literally destroyed the linemen at the senior bowl and vaulted from a second or third round pick into the first. I really like him as a person. and as a role player but he's not nasty enough for my taste. He runs a little hot and cold.

MOtorboat
03-29-2013, 11:37 PM
Ah no not what the articles say. First it's speculation on Klis' part which is fine because I think he's one of the better beat writers at the D.P.


If Klis is correct Elway and Fox don't see Ayers as pass rusher but as a run stuffer.


Ayers/draft pick. There are times when Ayers plays with the mean, violent streak that convinced Josh McDaniels to select him in the first round, No. 18 overall, in the 2009 draft. But Ayers hasn't developed into a pass rusher, evidenced by his 6½ sacks through four seasons.
Still, even if the Broncos sign Freeney or Abraham, Ayers probably would be the starter at right defensive end on rushing downs. The Broncos' projected front four on rushing downs, left to right: Derek Wolfe, Terrance Knighton, Kevin Vickerson and Ayers.
On passing downs, Von Miller would move from strongside linebacker to left defensive end. Wolfe and Ayers, with Mitch Unrein and Vickerson rotating in, would play the tackle positions. Freeney, Abraham or a draft pick within the first three rounds would play right defensive end. The Broncos are starting to warm to this idea.

So, one of the possibilities in Ayers starting at RDE.

Interesting.

MOtorboat
03-29-2013, 11:39 PM
and he never had a "bunch of sacks" as a Vol. I'm pretty sure he had like 8 or 9 his whole career , which is not impressive at all at the college level. Prior to that he'd seen spot starts. He is a very solid POA guy who literally destroyed the linemen at the senior bowl and vaulted from a second or third round pick into the first. I really like him as a person. and as a role player but he's not nasty enough for my taste. He runs a little hot and cold.

Correct. I did not look up the number. He did lead the SEC in tackles for loss in both his junior and senior season.

Still missing the point, though...

Klis thinks Denver will START Ayers at RDE. This is not my speculation.

Jsteve01
03-30-2013, 12:55 AM
I'm not disagreeing on the point Mo. it's legit. And you'll remember from the days at the freak, i've always been a supporter. I just don't love him as a RDE. That's my opinion and has nothing to do with the team's position on him. he's a classy guy and very nice. i've had a quite a bit of interaction with him via twitter. i'm hoping JDR can get him playing with that mean streak because when he's in that mode, he's a beast.

TXBRONC
03-30-2013, 11:22 AM
And you'd believe anything that McDaniels would have to say? We are talking about the same man who tried to trade Cutler for Cassel, then ended up with Orton. The same man who drafted Tebow in the first round and traded a first round pick for a second round pick and got squat in return? Not sure I'd consider anything he had to say, but that is just me.

It doesn't matter if I believe/believed him. I'm just saying that's what I thik McDaniels said about him. Right, wrong or indifferent if that's was his expectation Ayers didn't meet it.

Superchop 7
03-30-2013, 01:03 PM
The first job in football is to stop the run.

Simple Jaded
03-30-2013, 02:45 PM
I'm excited about Ayers getting a chance at actually rushing the passer but what happens if he goes down? Jeremy Beals, people.

Imo, sign Freeney, start Ayers and draft a developmental prospect. The last thing Denver needs is to return to the days when they had the likes of John Engleberger and Ebenezer Ekuban at DE.

sneakers
03-30-2013, 03:58 PM
McDaniels drafted him!!! OMG! HE ISTERRIBLE!!!!1!!!

Lancane
03-30-2013, 04:41 PM
McDaniels drafted him!!! OMG! HE ISTERRIBLE!!!!1!!!

I guess that depends on your take, if you look at his first draft the most successful picks have added up to nothing more then backup, rotational, special team players or are pretty much fodder. Seven of the ten draft picks that year are no longer on the team, those who are, have ended up being vastly expendable, Ayers, Bruton and Moreno, not one starter in that draft. His second was far better, four out of nine ended up being starters and are still on the roster, that first draft is one of the worst in recent memory, those draftees have had four years to prove their worth and IMHO everyone of them has fallen short, Bruton is probably the favorite of the bunch and that's because he's a special teams' standout.

Simple Jaded
03-30-2013, 04:53 PM
McDaniels drafted him!!! OMG! HE ISTERRIBLE!!!!1!!!

McDaniels drafted him way, way too high, but I'm told that that doesn't mean shit.

Slick
03-30-2013, 04:54 PM
I'm excited about Ayers getting a chance at actually rushing the passer but what happens if he goes down? Jeremy Beals, people.

Imo, sign Freeney, start Ayers and draft a developmental prospect. The last thing Denver needs is to return to the days when they had the likes of John Engleberger and Ebenezer Ekuban at DE.

Agreed except for the fact that Freeney or Abraham are asking for too much money. At this point I think Denver is done with free agency until after the draft.

Simple Jaded
03-30-2013, 05:01 PM
Agreed except for the fact that Freeney or Abraham are asking for too much money. At this point I think Denver is done with free agency until after the draft.

If Freeney gets $6 mil it won't be from the Broncos.

Slick
03-30-2013, 05:32 PM
Do they draft a DE early? Do they draft a RB early and cut either Moreno or McGahee? What are they going to do about Kuper or Mays? Pretty sure Mays' money was guaranteed last year and they can cut him this year and save 4 mil. I think they can free up some money but I doubt we find out for a while.

Joel
03-30-2013, 09:26 PM
Who started in the playoffs? That's dumb question because the answer the same guy played the entire season at LDE Derek Wolfe. You know the other guy that Ayers couldn't beat out.
My mistake then, I thought the same guy started who finished.


I'm excited about Ayers getting a chance at actually rushing the passer but what happens if he goes down? Jeremy Beals, people.

Imo, sign Freeney, start Ayers and draft a developmental prospect. The last thing Denver needs is to return to the days when they had the likes of John Engleberger and Ebenezer Ekuban at DE.
Ekuban was also a fine LDE; he just wasn't an RDE. Anyone expecting an LDE to be an RDE is "Doom"ed to disappointment.

Superchop 7
03-30-2013, 11:16 PM
We are on the hook for 500K with Mays this year.

sneakers
03-30-2013, 11:35 PM
I guess that depends on your take, if you look at his first draft the most successful picks have added up to nothing more then backup, rotational, special team players or are pretty much fodder. Seven of the ten draft picks that year are no longer on the team, those who are, have ended up being vastly expendable, Ayers, Bruton and Moreno, not one starter in that draft. His second was far better, four out of nine ended up being starters and are still on the roster, that first draft is one of the worst in recent memory, those draftees have had four years to prove their worth and IMHO everyone of them has fallen short, Bruton is probably the favorite of the bunch and that's because he's a special teams' standout.

Ayers is obviously the best out of the three. But he is a solid starting DE. I don't know what else you expect from a mid-first round pick.

Superchop 7
03-31-2013, 12:33 AM
I promise this, if you give Cornelius Washington 1 assignment, from RDE, as a 9 tech, and that assignment is "get the quarterback"......he will be productive. He is not a 5 tech, not a 7 tech, he can't set the edge, does not have half of the instincts of Moore.....but.....you stick him at 9 tech.....let him pin his ears back.....he is very good.
Situational pass rushing specialist. 4.55 40 yards dash, 36 bench reps. Was a beast at the senior bowl.

Superchop 7
03-31-2013, 12:54 AM
Brett Kerrman article on Cornelius Washington

I have two questions for the Georgia coaching staff: where was this guy all year, and why weren't you using him more often? I have never seen that kind of explosion out of a 265 pound man before. His first step was insane, and once he got under a blocker's pads on a bull rush, it was over. Nobody could anchor against him if he got a half decent start. He’s the only player I've ever seen go one-on-one with Chance Warmack and literally jack him back seven yards into the quarterback. That doesn't happen to Warmack against behemoths like John Jenkins, let alone against someone who is 50 pounds his junior. So what exactly happened between then and now? When comparing his Alabama tape to his earlier tapes, I noticed one little tweak that made all the difference – stance.

Early in the year, Washington’s three-point stance was very top heavy and unbalanced. His feet were too close together and his back was slightly arched rather than flattened out. He looked to be trying to balance his weight over his hips and feet rather than leaning hard into his hands and letting his leg muscles focus on getting an explosive first step. In the Bama game, however, his feet were staggered and his shoulders were further forward. His weight was on his hands and he looked much more "streamlined." When he uncoiled out of this newer, more energy efficient stance, it was one of the most awesome physical displays of power I have seen so far. His explosiveness off the snap is difficult to prepare for, and the ensuing strength of his bull rush as he pumps his legs deeper and deeper into the pocket is something few, if any, tackles can handle over the course of an entire game. He’s exhausting to deal with, and when his pad level is low enough, he’s almost unblockable. Most of the game Alabama’s offensive line merely slowed his bull rush down rather than outright stop it, and considering Bama’s offensive line is the litmus test that all defenders are judged by, I would say that's pretty high praise.

Washington was just as dominant in the Senior Bowl where he was finally utilized correctly and got the playing time he deserved. He might have only gotten one sack on the day as his only stat contribution, but he was manhandling tackles the entire game. They don’t record pressures in the Senior Bowl, but he got a lot. Justin Pugh and Ricky Wagner couldn't stop his bull rush; really, the only guy who was able to handle him was Kyle Long (sadly, they only got few snaps against one another). His first step explosion, speed, and power were on full display yet again.
While the former Bulldog does look impressive after finally harnessing his physical gifts, I do have some problems with his game. For starters, he has really bad hands. The speed rush and bull rush were his only two moves, and if either one got shut down, he couldn't counter with anything. No spins, no clubs, no rips, no anything. With that kind of bull rush I would expect at least a good jerk move to build off of it, but he never showed it. I never saw him work the edges like Alex Okafor with the dip and rip, and he never was able to simply get behind a guy with quick hands like Kawann Short. It was bull rush or die, every time. That needs to be fixed. If Datone Jones can improve his hand work so drastically, so can Washington.

(Last paragraph explains why he is a 9 tech at the pro level.....the beauty is this....we need a 9 tech)

TXBRONC
03-31-2013, 06:39 AM
I'm excited about Ayers getting a chance at actually rushing the passer but what happens if he goes down? Jeremy Beals, people.

Imo, sign Freeney, start Ayers and draft a developmental prospect. The last thing Denver needs is to return to the days when they had the likes of John Engleberger and Ebenezer Ekuban at DE.

From what I read it sounds more like they'll use Ayers rushing downs and then bring in a pass rusher on passing downs.

Simple Jaded
03-31-2013, 10:45 AM
I'd take an explosive first step over 4.55 speed. I think what happened to Washington was Jarvis Jones, same story with Tank Carradine, they got lost in the shadow of better players.

Simple Jaded
03-31-2013, 10:52 AM
From what I read it sounds more like they'll use Ayers rushing downs and then bring in a pass rusher on passing downs.

Wasn't that Mike Klis?

Superchop 7
03-31-2013, 02:56 PM
Lets see, he is 6 ft 4, 265 pounds.....and ran a 4.55.

And you don't think he is explosive......rolls eyes.....

According to Pat Kirwan he was the "most" explosive player in the draft, a rating of 85.8

Top 20 Explosive Players (based on workout results)

NAME SCHOOL POS. BENCH VERTICAL BROAD TOTAL
Cornelius Washington Georgia DE/OLB 36 39 10-8 85.8
Margus Hunt SMU DE 38 34.5 10-1 82.6
Tommy Bohanon Wake Forest FB 36 35 9-11 81
Christine Michael Texas A&M RB 27 43 10-5 80.5
Shamarko Thomas Syracuse S 28 40.5 11-1 79.6
Trevardo Williams UCONN OLB 30 38 10-4 78.4
Sio Moore UCONN WLB 29 38 10-7 77.7
Star Lotulelei Utah DT 38 30 8-11 77
Zaviar Gooden Missouri WLB 27 38.5 10-11 76.6
Akeem Spence Illinois DT 37 30 8-11 76
Brandon Williams Missouri So. DT 38 29.5 8-6 76
Terron Armstead Ark.-Pine Bluff OT 31 34.5 9-4 74.9
Knile Davis Arkansas RB 31 33.5 10-1 74.6
Vance McDonald Rice TE 31 33.5 9-11 74.6
Reid Fragel Ohio St. OT 33 30 9-5 72.5
Jamie Collins So. Miss. OLB 19 41.5 11-7 72.2
Lane Johnson Oklahoma OT 28 34 9-10 72
Sheldon Richardson Missouri DT 30 32 9-8 71.8
Shawn Williams Georgia S 25 36 10 71
Corey Lemonier Auburn OLB 27 34 9-11 71

Simple Jaded
03-31-2013, 05:30 PM
If you're talking to me I have no problem with Kirwan's opinion of Washington's explosiveness, I'm just saying I'd rather have his first step explosiveness than his 4.53 speed. Given the choice but Washington apparently has both.

Simple Jaded
03-31-2013, 05:34 PM
If I remember right Washington had the best 10-yard split at the combine. I'm not arguing, I'm agreeing.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-31-2013, 09:24 PM
I'd take an explosive first step over 4.55 speed. I think what happened to Washington was Jarvis Jones, same story with Tank Carradine, they got lost in the shadow of better players.

Yes, he did, but at least Carradine started and put up solid numbers. I don't think Washington really saw the field all that much.

Superchop 7
03-31-2013, 09:50 PM
Ok, gotcha.

Ansahs 10 yard was fastest for DE's at 1.56, Washingtons was 1.60......only 4 one-hundredths of a second behind.

4.55 speed means that unless you are RG3 he is closing quickly on the QB, definately has the highest top end speed of all DE's.

The last part I like is this......no playbook is needed. Line up wide and go get the quarterback.

TXBRONC
04-01-2013, 07:01 AM
Wasn't that Mike Klis?

Klis is a good reporter.

Simple Jaded
04-02-2013, 11:52 PM
Klis is a good reporter.

He should go back to baseball.

Simple Jaded
04-02-2013, 11:56 PM
Yes, he did, but at least Carradine started and put up solid numbers. I don't think Washington really saw the field all that much.

He started 26 of the 50 games he appeared in according the NFL Draft Scout.