Is It Time For Champ Bailey to Switch to Free Safety?

[Npba900]

Is It Time For Champ Bailey to Switch to Free Safety?

Not hoping for this, but keep in mind at this stage in Champs career the 2013 and beyond seasons, Champ could suddenly show his age at CB?

I'd love to see Bailey moved to FS this season to close out his career like Rod Woodson was able to do. Woodson made the switch to FS at age 34 and retired at age 38 wrapping up a 17 year career. Champ could do the same; why not allow Champ to become Ball Hawing FS for the last 3 or 4 years of his career.

In fact, in 2012 Baily should have made the switch to FS. Who knows Bailey could have intercepted Flacco during the 2nd overtime in the AFC title game last year, and the Broncos could have won and returned to the SB.

I don't want to see Champ struggle out there in 2013 at CB because he has lost a step and teams are capitalizing on it.

[Timmy!]

http://www.designerstalk.com/forums/attachments/showcase/11375d1325244221-consulting-website-oh-no___-not-shit-again.jpg

[olathebroncofan]

Great question. Here are the answers you will get...

[olathebroncofan]

http://www.designerstalk.com/forums/attachments/showcase/11375d1325244221-consulting-website-oh-no___-not-shit-again.jpg

This

[olathebroncofan]

No way

[olathebroncofan]

I agree

[olathebroncofan]

We should sign le lo Lang and move him to safety.

[olathebroncofan]

Please search prior threads before posting

[olathebroncofan]

We should sign urlacher and move him to safety. That's what he played in college.

[olathebroncofan]

These will be the responses you get.

End this thread. I have responded for everyone.

No need to thank me!

[chazoe60]

Olathe sweet corn contains a serious amount of alcohol.

[Npba900]

These will be the responses you get.

End this thread. I have responded for everyone.

No need to thank me!

:lol: I wasn't aware moving Champ to safety had been discussed already. Didn't mean to upset you!:coffee:

[Dapper Dan]

Olathe is pretty spot on. Or "on point" as the kids say nowadays.

[Npba900]

Olathe is pretty spot on. Or "on point" as the kids say nowadays.

I've taken the advice. Point is I did a search with the key words Champ Bailey Safety or champ bailey free safety and came a way with nothing.

[olathebroncofan]

It's all good. Not upset at all. I would say if you really wanted to read up on the subject look somewhere in January. It was right after the loss that those threads popped up.

[Dapper Dan]

I don't really get upset about stuff like this. It's all pretty funny. There are several Champ to Safety discussions and it's never good. Also, the search bar kind of sucks.

[Dapper Dan]

Also, Olathe was just reiterating pretty much everything that's been said in those threads. I'm not sure if any of those are his opinions. He's lurked pretty close apparently.

[Simple Jaded]

Db is your avatar a warshak test or does it have a huge orange boner?.......

[Dapper Dan]

Db is your avatar a warshak test or does it have a huge orange boner?.......

Probably just a big orange boner. I think it was suppose to be a tail. I'm not sure. But a giant orange boner is more intimidating.

[Simple Jaded]

Probably just a big orange boner. I think it was suppose to be a tail. I'm not sure. But a giant orange boner is more intimidating.

Very anatomically correct. Almost like looking in a mirror if weren't for the tail. And hoves. And other stuff.......

[Army Bronco]

We should move Champ to DE if we dont sign Dume.

[olathebroncofan]

We should move Champ to DE if we dont sign Dume.

OP...see what you started?

[Joel]

I've advocated this since last offseason, and believe Zam has, too; I forget which young gun I suggested we keep several seasons back on the grounds that "we'll need him when Champ slows down and moves to FS in a few years." What's perplexing is those few years have come and gone but suggestions Champ move to safety STILL meet irate roars that he's as fast at 35 as he was at 25, even though he manifestly isn't.

Trailing at the end of the 2011 playoff game, Rapistburger threw a desperate pass to the back of our endzone but no one was there except Champ, who dropped it because he only got there at the last second. A couple years earlier Champ makes that play and it's game over; instead, Rapistburger came back and threw a TD strike on the very next play and wound up taking us to OT.

That was the first clear evidence Champ has lost a step, but there were plenty of other signs in 2012; in addition to the Ravens playoff game where a track star second rate WR and second rate QB beat Champ multiple times, he gave up a few to another speedster in the Bengals game. The standard response is "Champ can still cover anyone but speedsters," but in his prime no one stated exceptions to what Champ could cover: Champ could and did cover ANYONE, because that's the definition of the shutdown corner he was.

Those days are gone; Champ can no longer run downfield with one receiver only to drop his coverage and race acrossfield for the pick when the QB throws to the OTHER one. He did that against Cincy, too—Dooms rookie year. Doom turns 30 this season; how old does that make Champ? The biggest evidence Champ has lost a step is that QBs are willing to throw to him more than once or twice a game, even guys like Flacco who can't throw anything but an erratic but very deep pass. Even three years ago Joe Flacco had nightmares about Champ Bailey; now he's beating him multiple times in playoff games. Flacco didn't get better, so....

The thing is, we have more good CBs than safeties. Granted, that's somewhat contingent on the status of Tracy Porter and Tony Carter, but with either of them, Rodgers-Cromartie and Chris Harris we'd be in pretty good shape at CB. I don't have much confidence in any of our safeties except Leonhard and Adams. Moore's the safety version of Joe Mays: He thinks his primary job is making big hits, but pass coverage is NEVER secondary for the secondary, as he was reminded in the 2012 playoffs.

After 2011 I said moving Champ to FS and signing a quality CB would fill two very big very real holes with one player. All that's changes is that Champ's a year older and we've signed three big name FA CBs the last two years, plus a lesser known one (ironically, the last one had the best 2012 season.) We also signed a couple safeties, but Leonhard's strictly a journeyman and it's not clear Adams is significantly better. Champ would be a frightening FS, or even SS (to the extent there's still a difference in the NFL; Champ's always been a punishing sure tackler even against backs.)

Bottom line is Champ plays a speed position and turns 35 in June; those two things don't mix. He's clearly still quite good, but has just as clearly lost a step; that's why even average QBs will throw at him, and even average WRs score when they do. We need a quality FS as badly as we need a quality CB, so finding someone to take Champs spot and moving him to FS would still fill two big holes with a single new player.

[Nomad]

:lol: I wasn't aware moving Champ to safety had been discussed already. Didn't mean to upset you!:coffee:

People get their panties in a bunch when the topic arises.:lol:

[SR]

And of course you can count on Joel to write a serious, novella of a post in a joke thread

[MOtorboat]

And of course you can count on Joel to write a serious, novella of a post in a joke thread

And his second reasoning for moving him to safety is that during a last minute situation in 2011 when he was in a zone situation he dropped a pass.

Two things:
A.) If he doesn't have the pass catching skills he did, then why would you move him to a position where he's supposed to ball hawk?
B.) It's a bullshit argument anyway. One play does not mean he's done, just like two touchdowns doesn't mean he sucks at corner now.

Oh, and ALL-PRO!

******* stupid shit.

[Nomad]

MO...you shouldn't get worked up over this.

[Joel]

And his second reasoning for moving him to safety is that during a last minute situation in 2011 when he was in a zone situation he dropped a pass.

Two things:
A.) If he doesn't have the pass catching skills he did, then why would you move him to a position where he's supposed to ball hawk?
B.) It's a bullshit argument anyway. One play does not mean he's done, just like two touchdowns doesn't mean he sucks at corner now.

Oh, and ALL-PRO!

******* stupid shit.
He dropped it due to arriving late, almost certainly because he had primary coverage elsewhere on a primary receiver. That greatly restricts his ability to free lance or play robber, but those are practically a safetys job description. Put it this way: Even if he just dropped another difficult pick, that'd still be better than being 10 yds in front and 2 yds below a 70 yard TD pass on 3rd and 3 at the end of regulation in the playoffs.

This isn't just about Champ losing a step, or at least half a step, obvious as that is. It's also about the absence of a successor to Lynch and Dawkins at safety. Champ's a ballhawk AND great tackler, exactly what a safety should be. The only reason it didn't make sense before was that Champ was a shutdown corner, but I don't think that still applies, so....

[SR]

The only reason it didn't make sense before was that Champ was a shutdown corner, but I don't think that still applies, so....

And 95% of the NFL world disagrees with you, so good thing you don't make the decisions.

[MOtorboat]

He dropped it due to arriving late, almost certainly because he had primary coverage elsewhere on a primary receiver. That greatly restricts his ability to free lance or play robber, but those are practically a safetys job description. Put it this way: Even if he just dropped another difficult pick, that'd still be better than being 10 yds in front and 2 yds below a 70 yard TD pass on 3rd and 3 at the end of regulation in the playoffs.

This isn't just about Champ losing a step, or at least half a step, obvious as that is. It's also about the absence of a successor to Lynch and Dawkins at safety. Champ's a ballhawk AND great tackler, exactly what a safety should be. The only reason it didn't make sense before was that Champ was a shutdown corner, but I don't think that still applies, so....

Who are you replacing him with?

Free agency is basically over and Rodgers-Cromartie isn't a replacement, he's a complement. Harris is a slot guy, because of his speed and physicality.

You pigeon-hole yourself into having to find a cornerback in the draft (Rhodes comes to mind), you don't know if Bailey is any better than the safeties you have because he's never played the position before, and instead of fixing a problem with a long term solution at safety, you just put a bandaid on it.

It creates question marks, and solves nothing.

[atwater27]

Attention all homers. If you think Champ hasn't lost a step and most likely 2, you are blind. Of course he is an all pro, playing with savvy, experience, instinct and such. what he doesn't have anymore is great speed, acceleration and change of direction skill. At the very least, he should not be matched up with the speedsters, unless we have a clear assignment at safety that can help him deep every time. And yes, regardless of the snobs on this site and their mockery of the concept, a move to safety should be considered, unless broncos fans want to see more coaches who have watched hours of videos on Champ, gameplan to attack his obvious weaknesses. It worked pretty damn good for Baltimore, didn't it. And, snobs, don't think for a second that this subject is not on the minds by Elway and Fox.

[SoCalImport]

Until champ is no longer the best CB on the Broncos roster, he will stay at CB.

I honestly hope someone supplants him soon but that's becuase that I'd love to see us with a clear cut #1 corner with a long career in front of him. I don't want champ to move yet, but I think he'll be a badass safety when he does.

[Dapper Dan]

The thing is, it will never be up to anyone on this board, nor will it be up to the front office. CFB will be a safety when CFB wants to be a safety.

[SR]

The thing is, it will never be up to anyone on this board, nor will it be up to the front office. CFB will be a safety if CFB wants to be a safety.

Fixed

[chazoe60]

The thing is, it will never be up to anyone on this board, nor will it be up to the front office. CFB will be a safety when CFB wants to be a safety.

But Champ will never WANT to be a safety. He may someday see the writing on the wall and move to safety to prolong his career a year or two but it won't be what he truly wants. His first NFL mentor, and a guy he very much admires is Darrell Green who played CB for all of his 20 year career. I really think Green was a big influence on him and if he had his way he'd play CB forever.

[Krugan]

Attention all homers. If you think Champ hasn't lost a step and most likely 2, you are blind. Of course he is an all pro, playing with savvy, experience, instinct and such. what he doesn't have anymore is great speed, acceleration and change of direction skill. At the very least, he should not be matched up with the speedsters, unless we have a clear assignment at safety that can help him deep every time. And yes, regardless of the snobs on this site and their mockery of the concept, a move to safety should be considered, unless broncos fans want to see more coaches who have watched hours of videos on Champ, gameplan to attack his obvious weaknesses. It worked pretty damn good for Baltimore, didn't it. And, snobs, don't think for a second that this subject is not on the minds by Elway and Fox.

This post would have been a heap better had it lacked the personal attacks.

And maybe an adjustment from block format.

Ive watched the replays from the lost playoff game a couple times, as near as I could tell champ was RUNNING with WRs, he just couldnt make the play, but wtf do I know.

[MOtorboat]

Attention all homers. If you think Champ hasn't lost a step and most likely 2, you are blind. Of course he is an all pro, playing with savvy, experience, instinct and such. what he doesn't have anymore is great speed, acceleration and change of direction skill. At the very least, he should not be matched up with the speedsters, unless we have a clear assignment at safety that can help him deep every time. And yes, regardless of the snobs on this site and their mockery of the concept, a move to safety should be considered, unless broncos fans want to see more coaches who have watched hours of videos on Champ, gameplan to attack his obvious weaknesses. It worked pretty damn good for Baltimore, didn't it. And, snobs, don't think for a second that this subject is not on the minds by Elway and Fox.

Baltimore didn't "gameplan" for these perceived weaknesses of Champ Bailey. They gameplan every single game to go deep. They didn't do it because Champ Bailey sucks, it's just what they do. Denver didn't adjust scheme-wise, and it bit them.

Go watch the Carolina game and watch Champ shutdown Steve Smith.

Now, those are the extremes, and reality is somewhere in the middle, but the geeks have him as an all-pro (the metrics at PFF) and his peers, coaches, writers and fans have him as an all-pro (AP and Pro Bowl). The coaches you talk about still think he's one of the best.

So obviously it's not just the "snobs" and "homers" at this website.

[atwater27]

Baltimore didn't "gameplan" for these perceived weaknesses of Champ Bailey.Keep on telling yourself that. They gameplan every single game to go deep. They didn't do it because Champ Bailey sucks, Never said he sucks.it's just what they do. Denver didn't adjust scheme-wise, and it bit them.

Go watch the Carolina game and watch Champ shutdown Steve Smith.Steve Smith is 33 and is a better age/skill match for Champ

Now, those are the extremes, and reality is somewhere in the middle, but the geeks have him as an all-pro (the metrics at PFF) and his peers, coaches, writers and fans have him as an all-pro (AP and Pro Bowl). The coaches you talk about still think he's one of the best.May i kindly refer you to the quoted post for the term all pro which i bestowed on said player. I figured since you quoted me that you did indeed read the quote first.

So obviously it's not just the "snobs" and "homers" at this website.Nope, just the thread snobs that give anybody hell if they even consider the concept that Champ is becoming a liability against the young speedsters, which is not a knock, just a brutal reality of age.

Champ will always be one of my favorite Broncos, and I want to see him play a couple more years, but not just play; flourish. The last thing we want to see is a great Bronco exposed and hung out to dry in his final few years because the coaches aren't paying attention to reality. But I am not worried, I have faith in Elway and company and also Champ himself to do what is right.

[atwater27]

It's only personal if you take it that way. But thanks for the composition tip, guy.

[MOtorboat]

Champ will always be one of my favorite Broncos, and I want to see him play a couple more years, but not just play; flourish. The last thing we want to see is a great Bronco exposed and hung out to dry in his final few years because the coaches aren't paying attention to reality. But I am not worried, I have faith in Elway and company and also Champ himself to do what is right.

Just so I have your opinion correct, you are surmising that Baltimore would not have thrown deep had Champ Bailey been playing safety?

[Poet]

Baltimore loves to go deep. When Jonathan Joseph was a Bengal, they would try to go deep on him all the time. Keep in mind he was a probably a top five corner and one of the fastest players on the field at any given time. And. they. still. tried. to. go. deep. on. him.

Baltimore had a very balanced offense. They had a big bruiser WR in Boldin, a burner in Smith, a do it all back in Rice and a good TE in Pitta. They only had one player who could consistently 'take the top off the defense' in Smith. Because they love to work the middle of the field so much, they HAVE to throw it deep. Trust me, that offense was not nearly effective when Smith was out, banged up or anything of the like. Yes, occasionally Boldin could run a deep route and catch a corner unprepared. But for the most part, they went deep with Smith.

It also so happens that Flacco throws the best deep ball in the game. It is his best asset as a player. While a lot people say that the deep ball is the easiest throw to make in the game, Flacco's damn near perfect at it. He can bomb it 60 yards into a window like no one else in the game. In other words, they are going to bomb it as much as possible. That's what they do. Even when he was a rookie he aired it out a lot, for a rookie QB that is.

The notion that they game planned throwing the ball deep on Champ is absurd. Especially when you consider that the only WR who worked over Champ was Green.

[EMB6903]

I've taken the advice. Point is I did a search with the key words Champ Bailey Safety or champ bailey free safety and came a way with nothing.

I myself have never seen so many uptight douchebag comments when the idea of moving champ to safety is brought up.

Realistically it's a good idea people, get over it.


::::now waiting for the sarcastic move ________ to safety threads to start:::::

[MOtorboat]

I myself have never seen so many uptight douchebag comments when the idea of moving champ to safety is brought up.

Realistically it's a good idea people, get over it.


::::now waiting for the sarcastic move ________ to safety threads to start:::::

Who plays corner, then?

[EMB6903]

Who plays corner, then?

I wish I could say I had that decision to make, luckily I don't.

With the roster we have now I'd prefer to have champ stay put with cromartie on the other side and Harris defending the slot.

I just don't understand why anytime that is brought up it gets shot down like its a bad idea.

Realistically Champ is declining.

I also think he would be a more effective safety at this point in his career.

[Poet]

The real reason isn't that people think it's an awful idea. It's that for about three months several posters bombarded the board with the crap. So if I started a "Von Miller pass rusher statistic" thread and talked about sacks, QB hits, forced fumbles or whatever it was fine. Until someone went "Von Miller sure is saving Champ's ass. They need to move Champ to safety so he's not so reliant on VM and Doom."

Then the actual arguments for the move itself were awful. Ranging from "he's not as fast as he was," to "he dropped an INT in the endzone against Pitt."

Now think about that for a moment. Bailey isn't as fast as he was, but he's still clearly fast enough to keep up with the majority of players in the NFL. He dropped an INT in the endzone, but so what? People used to knock Revis for having stone hands, but he was considered to be the best CB in football for several years.

Then the logistics of the situation don't add up. Does Denver want to draft another high cornerback in round one? They just signed Cromartie, they have three good corners and they need another pass rusher and some help at LB. As far as I understand it, this isn't a deep cornerback draft either. So to get their guy they probably need to spend a first rounder on him.

That scenario does not play nicely with reality. What makes it worse is that Denver has a shorter window with Manning. That makes the move even less attractive.

How many WR's are as fast as Smith? Ten? Then how many of those guys actually take a lot of snaps at wr? Maybe five or six.

How many WR's are as gifted physically as A.J. Green? Ten? How many of those guys actually go out and produce like Green has? Five or six?

You can bet your ass that if the Broncos play guys like Smith or Green, Cromartie will be on them. Or, Champ has safety help.

It's like the second Champ was no longer a top flight speedster you half the board wanted to dump him to FS.

[MOtorboat]

I wish I could say I had that decision to make.

With the roster we have now I'd prefer to have champ stay put with cromartie on the other side and Harris defending the slot.

I just don't understand why anytime that is brought up it gets shot down like its a bad idea.

Realistically Champ is declining.

I also think he would be a more effective safety at this point in his career.

It's not a bad idea, when its in a vacuum. But, practically speaking, to move a corner of his caliber, even at his age, you have to have someone better at corner to replace that hole you're going to create. Secondly, you have no idea how he translates to safety, because he's never played there. He may be a sub-par safety.

Those two reasons are why it's uncommon. The only team to do it successfully was the Ravens with Woodson, and that's because they had two solid corners (Chris McAllister was damned good), Woodson played safety in college and he also had surgery prior to the move.

Several other corners have moved to varying degrees of success, Ronde Barber this year was not a good move. (Forgetting the other examples, but they are few and far between)

[EMB6903]

To think you are going to replace champs talents at cb is absurd.

To see that being the only reason to move him is even more crazy

I'd like to see the best 11 players on the field whether champs replacement is better or not.

[MOtorboat]

To think you are going to replace champs talents at cb is absurd.

To see that being the only reason to move him is also crazy.

I'd like to see the best 11 players on the field whether champs replacement is better or not.

Then why move him?

[Poet]

Then why move him?

Especially when you have a corner who can keep up with the guys like Smith.

[EMB6903]

Then why move him?

Because champs replacement might not be as good as champ but not nearly as much of a liability as the guy champ is replacing at safety...?

[SR]

I myself have never seen so many uptight douchebag comments when the idea of moving champ to safety is brought up.

Realistically it's a good idea people, get over it.

::::now waiting for the sarcastic move ________ to safety threads to start:::::

You're a douchebag comment...

[MOtorboat]

Because champs replacement might not be as good as champ but not nearly as much of a liability as the guy champ is replacing at safety...?

OK. So the problem is safety. Then get a safety.

[Timmy!]

You dont move top 10 corner to safety just because it worked for Woodson a million years ago.

/thread

[SR]

OK. So the problem is safety. Then get a safety.

Oh my god! Logic!

[chazoe60]

We don't have Koppen any more and Walton is kind of the weak link on the OL, I say we move Hester to Center. :rolleyes:

[Poet]

Guys, the Broncos just signed me as a nose tackle.


You're welcome.

[chazoe60]

Guys, the Broncos just signed me as a nose tackle.


You're welcome.

What are you gonna do when we play the Bengals?

[MOtorboat]

Guys, the Broncos just signed me as a nose tackle.


You're welcome.

You're a liability on third down because you can't get enough push up the middle, but you're pretty stout against the run. A good rotational player, but Denver will need more depth.

[chazoe60]

We should move King to Safety.

[olathebroncofan]

If safety is really a concern then why didn't we go after Pollard?

[Poet]

You're a liability on third down because you can't get enough push up the middle, but you're pretty stout against the run. A good rotational player, but Denver will need more depth.


What are you gonna do when we play the Bengals?

Nothing, I just decided to take my talents to south beach. By that I mean that I'll be sexually harassing sexy brown women.

[Timmy!]

Attention all homers. If you think Champ hasn't lost a step and most likely 2, you are blind. Of course he is an all pro, playing with savvy, experience, instinct and such. what he doesn't have anymore is great speed, acceleration and change of direction skill. At the very least, he should not be matched up with the speedsters, unless we have a clear assignment at safety that can help him deep every time. And yes, regardless of the snobs on this site and their mockery of the concept, a move to safety should be considered, unless broncos fans want to see more coaches who have watched hours of videos on Champ, gameplan to attack his obvious weaknesses. It worked pretty damn good for Baltimore, didn't it. And, snobs, don't think for a second that this subject is not on the minds by Elway and Fox.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb304/timmy80906/neil-degrasse-tyson-reaction_zps03f16fdc.gif

[atwater27]

Just so I have your opinion correct, you are surmising that Baltimore would not have thrown deep had Champ Bailey been playing safety?

Nice misdirection. I am talking about a remedy to the situation as it exists. Not going back in time to second guess. Obviously, Denver and champ went with their only option, considering we are not stellar at safety. But few teams are. Going forward, an option could be to move champ to safety, where you don't have to have world class speed to excel, and make draft/free agency decisions accordingly. With our current roster, DRC could take over the fast receivers on a situational basis even, with Champ even being a situational safety. It doesn't have to be so cut and dry. Champ would most likely be just as good as Rod Woodson there. And before you put words in my mouth, Champ is much better than DRC. Just not against the burners.

[MOtorboat]

Nice misdirection. I am talking about a remedy to the situation as it exists. Not going back in time to second guess. Obviously, Denver and champ went with their only option, considering we are not stellar at safety. But few teams are. Going forward, an option could be to move champ to safety, where you don't have to have world class speed to excel, and make draft/free agency decisions accordingly. With our current roster, DRC could take over the fast receivers on a situational basis even, with Champ even being a situational safety. It doesn't have to be so cut and dry. Champ would most likely be just as good as Rod Woodson there. And before you put words in my mouth, Champ is much better than DRC. Just not against the burners.

They could remedy the situation by drafting a safety.

And up until one play, Rahim Moore was having a good season. I see a lot of knee jerk reactions.

[MOtorboat]

If safety is really a concern then why didn't we go after Pollard?

Because Pollard isn't any better in coverage than any safety the Broncos already have.

[Nomad]

Alright, I'm over the Doom thing, where is MO and Joel to carryon this entertaining conversation.

[Tebowtime2011]

:) I'm impressed with how many time this can be discussed. Most repettitive thread EVAR

[Jefehuston]

YES he should go to FS!!

[Joel]

I feel obligated to chime in here, but can offer no more at the current fatigue level than: Good luck, man; you'll need it.... ;)