Champ Bailey needs to restructure.

[HammeredOut]

Broncos need Champ Bailey to restructure his contract. At almost 35 years old, is he really worth 11 mill a year? No.. We know he's great, and what he has done defensively. He is really a 6-7 mill a year player, and that's stretching it. With Doom, and Champ at about the same cap hit, both know they aren't worth the ink its written on. I'm surprised Champ has not restructured, while Doom is expected to restructure. I believe in Champ, its just he isn't more then an above average player now, with flashes of being elite. We know Champs best days are behind him, now he should take a "less cap hit" for the team.

[chazoe60]

We should trade him, don't you think HO?

[Northman]

I like where this thread is going.

[MOtorboat]

ffs

[Timmy!]

Moar threads plz!

[CoachChaz]

FWIW, his salary is only 8 mil. The other 3 mil is a roster bonus and unless you cut him...that will be guaranteed. So Champ isnt worth 8 mil?

[claymore]

Broncos need Champ Bailey to restructure his contract. At almost 35 years old, is he really worth 11 mill a year? No.. We know he's great, and what he has done defensively. He is really a 6-7 mill a year player, and that's stretching it. With Doom, and Champ at about the same cap hit, both know they aren't worth the ink its written on. I'm surprised Champ has not restructured, while Doom is expected to restructure. I believe in Champ, its just he isn't more then an above average player now, with flashes of being elite. We know Champs best days are behind him, now he should take a "less cap hit" for the team.

I agree with this, it aint happening this year though.

[Northman]

I say we cut Champ and Manning. Then we will have a lot of cap space.

[chazoe60]

BTW, Terry Bradshaw is a better QB than Elway.

[HammeredOut]

ffs

With Champ restructuring, and Doom restructuring. We can save 12-15 million in cap space. If our team is serious about that run next season, we can bring in more help. That means taking a page out of the patriots book when it comes to making that type of deal. I know ive opened up pandora's box when i mentioned the word "Champ". Likely a few stories will pop up around Denver, but we need to consider it and for what it's worth.

[MOtorboat]

In before "left handed."

[Northman]

BTW, Terry Bradshaw is a better QB than Elway.

**** Bradshaw. Im a better QB than Elway was. Hell, im a better GM and would take less money.

[NightTerror218]

I would rather wait to do anything until after Manning retires.

[MOtorboat]

With Champ restructuring, and Doom restructuring. We can save 12-15 million in cap space. If our team is serious about that run next season, we can bring in more help. That means taking a page out of the patriots book when it comes to making that type of deal. I know ive opened up pandora's box when i mentioned the word "Champ". Likely a few stories will pop up around Denver, but we need to consider it and for what it's worth.

We'd have to cut both players outright to save $12-15 million.

Dumb.

[HammeredOut]

FWIW, his salary is only 8 mil. The other 3 mil is a roster bonus and unless you cut him...that will be guaranteed. So Champ isnt worth 8 mil?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap-hit/

Maybe this site is wrong. I have 11 mill in cap hit. 9.5 mill in base, with 1.5 in bonus. No dead money.

[chazoe60]

**** Bradshaw. Im a better QB than Elway was. Hell, im a better GM and would take less money.

We should hire you then, think of the cap savings.

[Northman]

I would rather wait to do anything until after Manning retires.

Or throws more game ending interceptions.

[Northman]

We should hire you then, think of the cap savings.

Dude, it would be awesome. **** it, i will work for peanuts.

[HammeredOut]

We'd have to cut both players outright to save $12-15 million.

Dumb.

Why not restructure the contracts instead of cutting?? Is that not the cap friendly option?

[CoachChaz]

With Champ restructuring, and Doom restructuring. We can save 12-15 million in cap space. If our team is serious about that run next season, we can bring in more help. That means taking a page out of the patriots book when it comes to making that type of deal. I know ive opened up pandora's box when i mentioned the word "Champ". Likely a few stories will pop up around Denver, but we need to consider it and for what it's worth.

How do you restructure a 35 year old CB? He'll end up costing us cap money after he's dead

[chazoe60]

Dude, it would be awesome. **** it, i will work for peanuts.

You're a real team player North.

[BeefStew25]

Okay I am going to my bukkake website now.

[HammeredOut]

Dude, it would be awesome. **** it, i will work for peanuts.

What happened to your educated responses.. North.. You are now turning into a babbling idiot. Keep it kewl.

[MOtorboat]

You're a real team player North.

You're a video game.

:busterposey:

[Northman]

What happened to your educated responses.. North.. You are now turning into a babbling idiot. Keep it kewl.

Its friday. Nothing better to do.

[MOtorboat]

Okay I am going to my bukkake website now.

How in the world this thread made you horny is beyond me.

[chazoe60]

What happened to your educated responses.. North.. You are now turning into a babbling idiot. Keep it kewl.

Ha, jokes on you pal, North's always been a babbling idiot.

[Northman]

IF we cut Manning we can sign Kolb! Cards just released him.

[HammeredOut]

Its friday. Nothing better to do.

I only come onto this site once a year usually before draft time. Then its back to work. Motor, and North should be in the sports handicapping business. Although, I see the posters have both of you reduced to babbling baboons with a monkey sitting on your face.

After Champ gets burned for 3 TD passes of 40yrds and more in the Championship game, that should have been it for Champ. Or restructure. We won the Portis trade when we got Champ, and lets admit we have gotten more value out of it. But after that Championship game, lets throw the hat in on Champ and let him know he isn't the same player he used to be. If champ was on the open market, what kind of contract do you think he is worth ? I dont think he gets more then 4.5-5 million a year. We are paying double that amount. I'll take nnamdi asomugha and sign him for less money if that was an option then what Champ is getting right now. We know the team over values Champ Bailey, its time he takes the pay cut. Or I will say it. Release him, and lets see what the market value is for a 35 year old CB.

[MOtorboat]

How do you restructure a 35 year old CB? He'll end up costing us cap money after he's dead

Interesting fact:

Bobby Bonilla is the highest paid Mets outfielder this year.

[Northman]

I only come onto this site once a year usually before draft time. Then its back to work. Motor, and North should be in the sports handicapping business. Although, I see the posters have both of you reduced to babbling baboons with a monkey sitting on your face.

After Champ gets burned for 3 TD passes of 40yrds and more in the Championship game, that should have been it for Champ. Or restructure. We won the Portis trade when we got Champ, and lets admit we have gotten more value out of it. But after that Championship game, lets throw the hat in on Champ and let him know he isn't the same player he used to be. If champ was on the open market, what kind of contract do you think he is worth ? I dont think he gets more then 4.5-5 million a year. We are paying double that amount. I'll take nnamdi asomugha and sign him for less money if that was an option then what Champ is getting right now. We know the team over values Champ Bailey, its time he takes the pay cut. Or I will say it. Release him, and lets see what the market value is for a 35 year old CB.

Champ did get burned. But i think it had far more to do with the scheme. They never made the correct adjustments and thought that Champ could handle his own island. Bad mistake.

[MOtorboat]

I only come onto this site once a year usually before draft time. Then its back to work. Motor, and North should be in the sports handicapping business. Although, I see the posters have both of you reduced to babbling baboons with a monkey sitting on your face.

After Champ gets burned for 3 TD passes of 40yrds and more in the Championship game, that should have been it for Champ. Or restructure. We won the Portis trade when we got Champ, and lets admit we have gotten more value out of it. But after that Championship game, lets throw the hat in on Champ and let him know he isn't the same player he used to be. If champ was on the open market, what kind of contract do you think he is worth ? I dont think he gets more then 4.5-5 million a year. We are paying double that amount. I'll take nnamdi asomugha and sign him for less money if that was an option then what Champ is getting right now. We know the team over values Champ Bailey, its time he takes the pay cut. Or I will say it. Release him, and lets see what the market value is for a 35 year old CB.

You realize they can't just walk up to every player and determine their worth and then pay them that worth, right?

Champ deserves every bit of that salary, IMO, despite giving up a touchdown this year. :gasp:

[chazoe60]

Hey HO, you still picking NFL games against the spread at a 95% clip?

[CoachChaz]

I think the thing everyone is missing in all of this is the name Ryan Clady. We still need to lock him up long term and that money has to come from somewhere. So let's put it this way. Who has more value to the team? Clady or Dumervil?

[HammeredOut]

Hey HO, you still picking NFL games against the spread at a 95% clip?

I told you its better to go 5 for 5, then 10 for 15 in a week. Im sorry to the other posters. But Chazoe needs a job.. Anybody need the yards cleaned??

[Northman]

I think the thing everyone is missing in all of this is the name Ryan Clady. We still need to lock him up long term and that money has to come from somewhere. So let's put it this way. Who has more value to the team? Clady or Dumervil?

Both

[HammeredOut]

You realize they can't just walk up to every player and determine their worth and then pay them that worth, right?

Champ deserves every bit of that salary, IMO, despite giving up a touchdown this year. :gasp:

An honest question, whats your opinion on what Champ Bailey gets in the open market right now? Does a 35 year old CB get 11 million a year? Whats the real value of him right now..

[chazoe60]

I told you its better to go 5 for 5, then 10 for 15 in a week. Im sorry to the other posters. But Chazoe needs a job.. Anybody need the yards cleaned??

So you're saying you're actually at 100%?

[claymore]

No way Champ gets more than 8 million a year on any other team.

[CoachChaz]

Both

We dont have the money for both. Which one is more worthy of 11-12 million?

[CoachChaz]

No way Champ gets more than 8 million a year on any other team.

Minus his roster bonus...that's all he gets from us right now

[HammeredOut]

So you're saying you're actually at 100%?

I wish 100%. I should reword that. Its better to play safe on safe money, then it is to reward yourself on high risk bets. So over the course of the season, and you win 90 out of 100 bets on low risk bets, you are ahead. Were not here to discuss bets, or betting. This is a Champ Bailey Thread.

[Krugan]

These contracts are all this way.

Mays pay is far to high for his output, Miller is underpaid.

We can back and forth this all day.

Its tic tac toe with someone elses value.

[claymore]

He needs to give back his roster bonus then. :D

[chazoe60]

I wish 100%. I should reword that. Its better to play safe on safe money, then it is to reward yourself on high risk bets. So over the course of the season, and you win 90 out of 100 bets on low risk bets, you are ahead. Were not here to discuss bets, or betting. This is a Champ Bailey Thread.

I bet Champ Bailey doesn't restructure.

[MOtorboat]

An honest question, whats your opinion on what Champ Bailey gets in the open market right now? Does a 35 year old CB get 11 million a year? Whats the real value of him right now..

No. But that's not the point. You don't just to pick the salary a player is worth and pay him that.

But I don't think you understand how a restructure works. The only way to get a player to restructure and take less money up front is if you pay them more on the back end. Paying a player who will likely retire in the next two or three years more on the back end costs you cap space next year and the year after, which makes it harder to sign Clady and Thomas and Miller.

Restructuring isn't always a good thing. Remember when Denver was dealing with all that dead cap space from Shanahan back loading and restructuring contracts willy nilly?

The reason the Broncos can do this to Dumervil is because they have a little more leverage with him. He's not a top five player at his position, and even at 35 Bailey is a top five player at his position.

I'm done with this, because it's stupid, that's why you're getting stupid responses.

[HammeredOut]

No way Champ gets more than 8 million a year on any other team.

Is this a one year contract? or does Champ sign a 3 year deal for 12 million to 15 million on the open market.

[Northman]

Champ should go to safety.

[HammeredOut]

No. But that's not the point. You don't just to pick the salary a player is worth and pay him that.

But I don't think you understand how a restructure works. The only way to get a player to restructure and take less money up front is if you pay them more on the back end. Paying a player who will likely retire in the next two or three years more on the back end costs you cap space next year and the year after, which makes it harder to sign Clady and Thomas and Miller.

Restructuring isn't always a good thing. Remember when Denver was dealing with all that dead cap space from Shanahan back loading and restructuring contracts willy nilly?

The reason the Broncos can do this to Dumervil is because they have a little more leverage with him. He's not a top five player at his position, and even at 35 Bailey is a top five player at his position.

I'm done with this, because it's stupid, that's why you're getting stupid responses.

Whats Champ Bailey worth as a 35 year old CB on the open market then? So we can't cut him, then try to resign him at a competitive rate, because we still get burned on the Cap Space??

[CoachChaz]

No. But that's not the point. You don't just to pick the salary a player is worth and pay him that.

But I don't think you understand how a restructure works. The only way to get a player to restructure and take less money up front is if you pay them more on the back end. Paying a player who will likely retire in the next two or three years more on the back end costs you cap space next year and the year after, which makes it harder to sign Clady and Thomas and Miller.

Restructuring isn't always a good thing. Remember when Denver was dealing with all that dead cap space from Shanahan back loading and restructuring contracts willy nilly?

The reason the Broncos can do this to Dumervil is because they have a little more leverage with him. He's not a top five player at his position, and even at 35 Bailey is a top five player at his position.

I'm done with this, because it's stupid, that's why you're getting stupid responses.

Most people fail to realize this had more to do with the team being bad in the early 2000's than Elway retiring

[Ziggy]

Whats Champ Bailey worth as a 35 year old CB on the open market then? So we can't cut him, then try to resign him at a competitive rate, because we still get burned on the Cap Space??

No, we don't cut him because he's our best corner, and still a top 5 corner in the NFL.

[claymore]

Is this a one year contract? or does Champ sign a 3 year deal for 12 million to 15 million on the open market.

Thats per year. Not sure what the market for FA CB's are this year though. DRC signed a friendly one year deal worth what 5 million? I think Baileys name and not his play would push his yearly salary above that.

[CoachChaz]

Whats Champ Bailey worth as a 35 year old CB on the open market then? So we can't cut him, then try to resign him at a competitive rate, because we still get burned on the Cap Space??

If you paid Champ the average of the top 5 paid CB's, his salary would drop 1, maybe 2 million. You cant compare Elvis's salary to the top 5 paid DE's because he isnt a top 5 DE. SO, if we're generous and compare it to players in the 6-10 range, his salary would drop around 5 mil

[MOtorboat]

Whats Champ Bailey worth as a 35 year old CB on the open market then? So we can't cut him, then try to resign him at a competitive rate, because we still get burned on the Cap Space??

Probably a million less than what he's getting paid.

[claymore]

Most people fail to realize this had more to do with the team being bad in the early 2000's than Elway retiring

I blame it on all the POS FA's Shannahan brought in. It was a never ending dead money loop we got caught in because non of his Overpriced FA's worked out.

[NightTerror218]

Elway gave him this deal, he will not request reconstruct unless cap space is a serious issue or if play drops significantly. Elway did not give Doom his contract that is "out of whack"

[HammeredOut]

Probably a million less than what he's getting paid.

You think a team would sign Champ Bailey to a 12 million a year contract on the open market right now?? C'mon man. Realistically, just give me a number.

[CoachChaz]

You think a team would sign Champ Bailey to a 12 million a year contract on the open market right now?? C'mon man. Realistically, just give me a number.

It would obviously be a short deal, but we just gave DRC 5 mil for a year, so I'd imagine Champ could get 9-10 for a year or two

[SR]

What happened to your educated responses.. North.. You are now turning into a babbling idiot. Keep it kewl.

You're calling North a babbling idiot? Do you see how many people high fived the OP? That means no one likes what you said...and North is the babbling idiot? LMAO. To you, sir, I bow my head.

[SR]

No way Champ gets more than 8 million a year on any other team.

But you have Peyton Manning in a Bears jersey in your sig after a year of Peyton Manning getting pictures taken of him in an actual Broncos uni.

[SR]

Champ should go to safety.

Goddammit. This has happened two days in a row.

[claymore]

But you have Peyton Manning in a Bears jersey in your sig after a year of Peyton Manning getting pictures taken of him in an actual Broncos uni.

Thats just to sass Mo. He was a real PITA (Pain In The Ass) when I first put it up.

[MOtorboat]

Thats just to sass Mo. He was a real PITA (Pain In The Ass) when I first put it up.

I still think it's Peyton's head on Eli Manning...

That's a freakin' Giants uniform...

[SR]

Thats just to sass Mo. He was a real PITA (Pain In The Ass) when I first put it up.

Member when we used to e-mail back and forth on that super secret computer network thing? That was fun.

[HammeredOut]

Probably a million less than what he's getting paid.

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

[NightTerror218]

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

look at all the other games this season that he shut down a teams top WR. Every player has a bad game.

[rationalfan]

get champ to restructure, then fire elway and hire someone from this board to be gm/vp. we'd have a team full of safeties and d-linemen.

[HammeredOut]

get champ to restructure, then fire elway and hire someone from this board to be gm/vp. we'd have a team full of safeties and d-linemen.

Its ironic you mentioned this. I thought Manning was our GM, Coach, and QB all at once.

[SR]

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

What the **** kind of logic tree are you following?

[Army Bronco]

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

What the **** kind of logic tree are you following? Section 8 bro! JACKET!!!!!

[Timmy!]

This thread is an abortion.

[SR]

This thread is an abortion.

Link?

[Nomad]

goddammit. This has happened two days in a row.

lol

[Poet]

No way Champ gets more than 8 million a year on any other team.

He'd be the best safety in the game. Goldson got 8 a year, and he's a strong safety! Free safeties usually make more! Champ easily hits 12 million a year.

[rationalfan]

Its ironic you mentioned this. I thought Manning was our GM, Coach, and QB all at once.

and the the pilot to the team's private aircraft.

[MOtorboat]

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

The board moderators have told me that if I respond to this post in the appropriate fashion that it would be a personal attack, and therefore against the rules.

I'll leave it at that.

[shank]

HO, i disagree with you.

on a completely unrelated note, i bet it would suck to be retarded. sorry to go off-topic like that.

[Npba900]

Broncos need Champ Bailey to restructure his contract. At almost 35 years old, is he really worth 11 mill a year? No.. We know he's great, and what he has done defensively. He is really a 6-7 mill a year player, and that's stretching it. With Doom, and Champ at about the same cap hit, both know they aren't worth the ink its written on. I'm surprised Champ has not restructured, while Doom is expected to restructure. I believe in Champ, its just he isn't more then an above average player now, with flashes of being elite. We know Champs best days are behind him, now he should take a "less cap hit" for the team.

Fair point. Bailey has earned a boat-load of money over his career....it shouldn't hurt his bottom line too much. How do you feel about Peyton Manning restructuring his contract in 2014 or 2015?

[Npba900]

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

Champ had a bad playoff game, but age and speed were not the problems, he actually out ran Smith on one TD and just made a bad play on the ball.

The secondary could have used some pass rush help.....just saying. Flaco(sp) had a clean jersey in the overtime and had all the time in the world to throw the ball down field.

[Simple Jaded]

Restructure another player? Great idea, it worked so well the last time.......

[Simple Jaded]

I blame it on all the POS FA's Shannahan brought in. It was a never ending dead money loop we got caught in because non of his Overpriced FA's worked out.

I blame it on the fact that Shanatan was so full of himself that he thought he could make chicken soup (Joe Montana) outta chicken poop (Brian Griese).......

[HammeredOut]

The board moderators have told me that if I respond to this post in the appropriate fashion that it would be a personal attack, and therefore against the rules.

I'll leave it at that.

What happened<<>>? Its just an honest question, no personal attacks on his character on or off the field. Champ Bailey is looking at 118 Million total in salaries made from his NFL career. I was wondering why he never took a pay cut at his ripe old age. He did get burned 3 times in the Championship game for huge gains and TDs.

[GEM]

With Champ restructuring, and Doom restructuring. We can save 12-15 million in cap space. If our team is serious about that run next season, we can bring in more help. That means taking a page out of the patriots book when it comes to making that type of deal. I know ive opened up pandora's box when i mentioned the word "Champ". Likely a few stories will pop up around Denver, but we need to consider it and for what it's worth.

Funny how people get mad when players don't honor their contracts, but are real quick to say when a player needs to restructure. I would love to see how most people would react if their boss said to them....I want you do the same amount of work, but I'm going to cut 40% off your pay. :laugh:

[GEM]

After watching the Championship game, and getting burned for 3 TD's of 40 yards or more, is that really a top 5 corner in the league?? I don't think just below average CB's will have that happen in the same game. So i disagree that Champ is top 5 in the league at his position. Realistically, Champ is not worth that kind of money, nor top 5 money. I think he has "Tim Tebow? value, where the Jersey's fly off the shelf, but thats about it. At most, just for the "Name" on the back of the Jersey, I say Champ is worth about half of what he is making. No team in the league will give Champ a 12 million a year contract, and still call him top 5 in the league. I have a hard time keeping him in the top 20. And with the benefit of a great pass rush, Champ should have put up inflated numbers.

You also said Terry Bradshaw was a top QB...so your player opinions on just about any player is questionable. :shrugs:

[Ravage!!!]

Funny how people get mad when players don't honor their contracts, but are real quick to say when a player needs to restructure. I would love to see how most people would react if their boss said to them....I want you do the same amount of work, but I'm going to cut 40% off your pay. :laugh:

I think Cowherd said something this morning that was right on (he was using basketball players as his examples, but still fits)... "Fans love players when they have no leverage, but as soon as they have leverage against the owners or teams, they no longer love them."

Its true...we like it when a player is "loyal" to the team and is wiling to play for whatever amount th team wants, but if the player has the leverage and can get better offers elsewhere, or, can force a team to more money.....we think of them as evil.

For some reason we think the player should be as LOYAL as the fans are.

[weazel]

the moonwalk is the only way to look cool while wiping shit off your shoe.

[Joel]

All Denvers moves at CB the last two years reflect a dissatisfied team. Granted, Goodman was an obvious liability at #2, and signing Florence, Porter and Carter was probably primarily to remedy that deficiency. However (and despite Florence and Porters departures,) Carter played well last season and Chris Harris got more bonus money than any other player on the roster—yet we signed Rodgers-Cromartie anyway.

I love Champ to death, but anyone paying attention could see him slowing down at least the last two years. My telltale sign remains the interception he dropped at the end of the 2011 playoff game against Pitt, a play he would've made 3-4 years ago and that would've prevented the TD on the very next play that eventually sent the game to OT. He didn't just get burned once or twice against the Ravens though, but repeatedly. He'll be 35 in June and will only get slower, not faster, hence all the longstanding arguments to use his reduced speed but phenomenal ball hawking at safety, to which they are far better suited.

Of course, safeties aren't paid like corners, for good reason. Regardless, the days of Champ running with a receiver down one sideline only to drop him when the ball is thrown and pick off a pass on the OTHER sideline, or run an interception from our endzone to theirs, are gone. That's life, and doesn't (yet) mean he's done, but makes paying him like the top shutdown corner he no longer is a waste of fine and finite funds.

Asked to give up $10-15 million over the next three years so we could sign a Patrick Willis or J.J. Watt and win a couple Super Bowls, what do ya'll think Champ'd say? Bearing in mind 1) his chances of retiring with a Ring will fall significantly once PEYTON retires and 2) Peyton will consume $20 million of cap space each of the next two years. It's down to priorities, and I doubt either of them primarily plays for cash anymore.

[broncohead]

Good post Joel. Someone will come in with a "4.3 40 doesn't mean he isn't good" remark but your right. I've noticed it as well. He doesn't bait QBs like he used to. In fact I never see him do it anymore. And its not the scheme. He just can't cover like he used to

[MOtorboat]

If he's too slow to bait quarterbacks anymore, then that pretty much takes away the idea that he'd be good at safety.

Just cut his ass.

:rolleyes:

[MOtorboat]

Torrey Smith is one of the fastest wideouts in the game. Champ gets beat twice by him, and Dalton and Green squeezes a pass past him and suddenly the guy has lost it?

It's just ridiculous.

Luckily, we have a front office that's smarter than that. Second team All Pro. One of the best four cornerbacks in the league.

Period.

[SR]

Torrey Smith is one of the fastest wideouts in the game. Champ gets beat twice by him, and Dalton and Green squeezes a pass past him and suddenly the guy has lost it?

It's just ridiculous.

Luckily, we have a front office that's smarter than that. Second team All Pro. One of the best four cornerbacks in the league.

Period.

Yup. No other argument holds any water IMO. But hey, everyone is an expert in their own mind.

[MOtorboat]

Yup. No other argument holds any water IMO. But hey, everyone is an expert in their own mind.

Second Team All Pro, writers (AP)
Second Team All Pro, nerds (PFF)
Pro Bowl, fans/peers/coaches

:whoknows:

[broncohead]

If he's too slow to bait quarterbacks anymore, then that pretty much takes away the idea that he'd be good at safety.

Just cut his ass.

:rolleyes:

Yep cause i said we should cut him... Just saying he's not the same player

[MOtorboat]

Yep cause i said we should cut him... Just saying he's not the same player

You're right. He's 34. He's not the 26 year old all-world player Denver acquired in 2004.

It doesn't mean he's not still a top corner. It doesn't mean it's time to move him to safety (I believe Bailey is the type of player that doesn't move). And it doesn't mean he needs a payout.

[broncohead]

You won't find a single post of me saying he isnt a good CB or he should move to safety. My opinion is that next season he won't be considered in the top 5 anymore and no its not because of the balt game (someone would of overreacted if i didn't say it)

[SR]

Second Team All Pro, writers (AP)
Second Team All Pro, nerds (PFF)
Pro Bowl, fans/peers/coaches

:whoknows:

Exactly. The numbers and stats and accolades speak for themselves.

[shank]

but but but the championship game.

[Joel]

Second Team All Pro, writers (AP)
Second Team All Pro, nerds (PFF)
Pro Bowl, fans/peers/coaches
:whoknows:
According to the nerds and writers Baltimore shouldn't even have made it to the AFCCG (I happen to agree and suspect their championship had nothing to do with athletics, but that's another rant. ;)) According to Pro Bowl voters Tebow was one of the AFCs top 5 QBs in 2011. But this isn't the NCAA: Championships are decided by play, not ballot, so saying, "he was only torched three times in one playoff game," doesn't help.

Look, this isn't a Boolean thing where Champ's either the best or useless; there's a wide range of intermediate possibilities. He's still very good, but there's a reason guys like Flacco are willing to keep throwing at someone they had nightmares about three years ago, a reason he passed over his #1 WR to throw at Champ: His guy was open. Repeatedly. A lot of that was because Smith has blazing speed, but rather than just having Champ play way off speedsters and give up the underneath routes, why not put a younger faster CB on those guys and let Champ ballhawk at safety? And why pay a top safety like a top corner?

[Poet]

I swear to god the posters on this site are going to shit themselves when Champ Bailey retires. It's like the Dallas fans who complain that DeMarcus Ware doesn't have more multi-sack games.

FFS.

[MOtorboat]

According to the nerds and writers Baltimore shouldn't even have made it to the AFCCG (I happen to agree and suspect their championship had nothing to do with athletics, but that's another rant. ;)) According to Pro Bowl voters Tebow was one of the AFCs top 5 QBs in 2011. But this isn't the NCAA: Championships are decided by play, not ballot, so saying, "he was only torched three times in one playoff game," doesn't help.

Look, this isn't a Boolean thing where Champ's either the best or useless; there's a wide range of intermediate possibilities. He's still very good, but there's a reason guys like Flacco are willing to keep throwing at someone they had nightmares about three years ago, a reason he passed over his #1 WR to throw at Champ: His guy was open. Repeatedly. A lot of that was because Smith has blazing speed, but rather than just having Champ play way off speedsters and give up the underneath routes, why not put a younger faster CB on those guys and let Champ ballhawk at safety? And why pay a top safety like a top corner?

One game he gave up two plays. He gave up three plays in an entire season. It's stupid, really stupid, to go knee jerk because of it.

The rest of the season he was lights out. It's obvious you didn't watch a single game except the Ravens playoff game if that's your opinion.

Thankfully, we have a front office that isn't stupid.

[MOtorboat]

I swear to god the posters on this site are going to shit themselves when Champ Bailey retires. It's like the Dallas fans who complain that DeMarcus Ware doesn't have more multi-sack games.

FFS.

Its ******* unbelievable how idiotic people are. It really is.

[Poet]

Its ******* unbelievable how idiotic people are. It really is.

I wish Cincinnati had Champ Bailey. Cincy's defense would tear people to shreds.

[shank]

:personal attacks:

[Poet]

:personal attacks:

:informationhighway:

[shank]

:informationhighway:

that was me avoiding getting a 'concerning your post' IM later. i hate idiots.

[Poet]

that was me avoiding getting a 'concerning your post' IM later. i hate idiots.

I typically ignore those. Or if it comes from NTL, I call him a rich ******* and then tell him to ****.

[BeefStew25]

I think Joel has either aspies or downs.

[Joel]

I actually have Yorkie downs; they eat less than greyhounds and the betting is just as lucrative (for me. ;))

And I get the impression most Broncos fans will just quit watching football when Champ retires, I mean, what's the point after that? :tongue: I think this is the first time I've been glad Elway retired after he won SB MVP; I'd have hated to see him hobbling around throwing flutterballs at 50 while people insisted he was still a top 5 QB worth $10 million/year. ;)

[MOtorboat]

:rolleyes:

[Mike]

I swear to god the posters on this site are going to shit themselves when Champ Bailey retires. It's like the Dallas fans who complain that DeMarcus Ware doesn't have more multi-sack games.

FFS.

I had an idiot come into my office a couple weeks after the Balt game and said Champ was done, Denver should outright cut him. A Bronco fan. I just stared at the guy at a loss for what to say. Then my wife's uncle said the same damn thing a few weeks later. I am really beginning to think Denver has the most idiotic fanbase in the NFL...message boards don't help either.

[SR]

I had an idiot come into my office a couple weeks after the Balt game and said Champ was done, Denver should outright cut him. A Bronco fan. I just stared at the guy at a loss for what to say. Then my wife's uncle said the same damn thing a few weeks later. I am really beginning to think Denver has the most idiotic fanbase in the NFL...message boards don't help either.

People in general are stupid when it comes to stuff like that. The easy thing to do after the Baltimore game was blame Bailey because he got beat by one of the fastest WRs in football while failing to look at the big picture.

[claymore]

What I cant understand is the anger towards Moore, but nobody mentions Champ getting burnt all night. If he cant be on the Island alone anymore I think he does need a paycut. If we have to give him help, he isnt a top 5 CB.

[Buff]

What I cant understand is the anger towards Moore, but nobody mentions Champ getting burnt all night. If he cant be on the Island alone anymore I think he does need a paycut. If we have to give him help, he isnt a top 5 CB.

A bunch of people have mentioned Bailey getting toasted. But I think a perennial pro bowler and a guy coming off a legit All Pro season deserves a little bit more of the benefit of the doubt than some cocky 2nd year safety who has never done anything. Not from a roster building standpoint, but from a fan's perspective. I'll give Bailey a pass for one horrible game - I'm not giving Moore a pass.

[claymore]

Torrey Smith is one of the fastest wideouts in the game. Champ gets beat twice by him, and Dalton and Green squeezes a pass past him and suddenly the guy has lost it?

It's just ridiculous.

Luckily, we have a front office that's smarter than that. Second team All Pro. One of the best four cornerbacks in the league.

Period.
It was the most important game the Broncos have played in since Elway retired. He chose a terrible time to shit the bed. Not saying he does, but IF HE DOES need help, then he isnt a top corner. He was targeted during that game repeatedly.

[claymore]

A bunch of people have mentioned Bailey getting toasted. But I think a perennial pro bowler and a guy coming off a legit All Pro season deserves a little bit more of the benefit of the doubt than some cocky 2nd year safety who has never done anything. Not from a roster building standpoint, but from a fan's perspective. I'll give Bailey a pass for one horrible game - I'm not giving Moore a pass.

I think the younger player should get more of a pass for one play than a future HOF'er that was burnt repeatedly. He should have asked for help. If he couldnt get it done, it was his job to say something.

If he said something, and Del-Rio didnt give him help, then the blame should fall on his shoulders.

[SR]

I think the younger player should get more of a pass for one play than a future HOF'er that was burnt repeatedly. He should have asked for help. If he couldnt get it done, it was his job to say something.

If he said something, and Del-Rio didnt give him help, then the blame should fall on his shoulders.

Despite the scope of the game, it was just one game. Bailey getting scorched bad a couple of times in one game doesn't detract from the fact that he is still one of the best CBs in the league. And if you think that just because he might need safety help means he's not a top CB, you're dead wrong. Revis gets help. Champ has gotten help before. Every CB needs safety help. They're called SAFETY for a reason.

[claymore]

Despite the scope of the game, it was just one game. Bailey getting scorched bad a couple of times in one game doesn't detract from the fact that he is still one of the best CBs in the league. And if you think that just because he might need safety help means he's not a top CB, you're dead wrong. Revis gets help. Champ has gotten help before. Every CB needs safety help. They're called SAFETY for a reason.

One game shouldnt detract from his whole body of work. He is a future HOF'er. All that is set in stone. Having said that, he was the reason we lost that game.

It is up to him to prove it was an fluke. If not, he needs a paycut or a position change.

[Ravage!!!]

Bailey is still good, but not a top 5... NOT if he can't cover the fastest by himself anymore. He got torched by the Cinci kid as well. True, both are burners, and it was bad defensive calling to keep Bailey on Smith when it was obvious Champ couldn't keep up alone.

I love Champ, and think he's a great corner, and maybe its just the cold weather combined with matching up with those guys....but the truth is, Bailey got burned THREE times during that Baltimore game had it not been for a throw that was just missed.

I know exactly what clay is saying because I'm the one that's been saying the same thing.... quit blaming Moore alone, when Bailey kept getting beat over and over again. That being said, Bailey is still very good and certainly TOO good to be moved to safety if we can avoid it. Corner is more important, especially in this league.

But when we are playing against a burner at WR, we just don't put Bailey 1-v-1 on him alone. Everyone else he can match against, EXCEPT the elite burners. There is no shame in admitting that.

[NightTerror218]

What I cant understand is the anger towards Moore, but nobody mentions Champ getting burnt all night. If he cant be on the Island alone anymore I think he does need a paycut. If we have to give him help, he isnt a top 5 CB.

I guess it also comes down to the coverage they have too. If Bailey is assuming he has a safety over the top and the help does not come and he gets burned, fault not on him. Or if he is actually an island and no help is coming and gets burned then his fault.

[NightTerror218]

Bailey is still good, but not a top 5... NOT if he can't cover the fastest by himself anymore. He got torched by the Cinci kid as well. True, both are burners, and it was bad defensive calling to keep Bailey on Smith when it was obvious Champ couldn't keep up alone.

I love Champ, and think he's a great corner, and maybe its just the cold weather combined with matching up with those guys....but the truth is, Bailey got burned THREE times during that Baltimore game had it not been for a throw that was just missed.

I know exactly what clay is saying because I'm the one that's been saying the same thing.... quit blaming Moore alone, when Bailey kept getting beat over and over again. That being said, Bailey is still very good and certainly TOO good to be moved to safety if we can avoid it. Corner is more important, especially in this league.

But when we are playing against a burner at WR, we just don't put Bailey 1-v-1 on him alone. Everyone else he can match against, EXCEPT the elite burners. There is no shame in admitting that.

I think Champ should have been on Bolden and Harris on Smith. Smith runs deep, uses his speed to burn past CBs, that is about all he can do. He toasted CBs all season doing that. I think it comes down to match ups. Champ can shut down people, but he can not keep up with the straight burners who only use speed. He shut down numerous top WRs who use body and hands and route running to get the ball. Champ has shown he can shut those people down, but straight speed, appears not to be his cup of tea. Looking back at the entire season, he had issues with Green and Smith that I can recall. Against ATL, white had a great came and Jones did not. Against Texans johnson had 70 yards or so. Against saints colston had 63 yards. TB he kept VJ to 55 yards. He shot down Bolden 2 games basically.

[CoachChaz]

Even at 35, I would take Bailey in a foot race over Harris

[NightTerror218]

Even at 35, I would take Bailey in a foot race over Harris

you think so? I have no seen them next to each other in run. But it is easier to pay Champ to shut down Bolden and let Harris and Safety take out the deep threat.

[claymore]

I guess it also comes down to the coverage they have too. If Bailey is assuming he has a safety over the top and the help does not come and he gets burned, fault not on him. Or if he is actually an island and no help is coming and gets burned then his fault.

If both DB's blow the play we have a coaching problem. Didnt we release our DB coach?

[NightTerror218]

If both DB's blow the play we have a coaching problem. Didnt we release our DB coach?

Del Rio got his guy in here now. That play in playoffs was blown all over the place.

[Ravage!!!]

I think Champ should have been on Bolden and Harris on Smith. Smith runs deep, uses his speed to burn past CBs, that is about all he can do. He toasted CBs all season doing that. I think it comes down to match ups. Champ can shut down people, but he can not keep up with the straight burners who only use speed. He shut down numerous top WRs who use body and hands and route running to get the ball. Champ has shown he can shut those people down, but straight speed, appears not to be his cup of tea. Looking back at the entire season, he had issues with Green and Smith that I can recall. Against ATL, white had a great came and Jones did not. Against Texans johnson had 70 yards or so. Against saints colston had 63 yards. TB he kept VJ to 55 yards. He shot down Bolden 2 games basically.

Right, and I doubt Champ was man-up on those Wrs the entire game. But he might have been, I just don't see it. But like you said, OTHER THAN the elite speedsters, Champ is great. That's really not that hard to understand. I'm not looking to burn/blame Champ, but I'm not looking to simply make excuses for him either. He got BEAT on those TDs, and on one, he can't even use the excuse that he was burned by speed....but didn't make the play when he was there to make it.

[Simple Jaded]

Even at 35, I would take Bailey in a foot race over Harris

I'd take Joe Flacco in a foot race over Harris.......

[shank]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2012/1216/20121216__chris-harris-INT-TD-broncos-ravens-122612~p1.jpg

[Buff]

Next person to disparage Chris Harris gets punched in the mouf.

[MOtorboat]

Next person to disparage Chris Harris gets punched in the mouf.

You need to come to grips with reality, and recognize that Harris is pretty much worthless.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah Flacco diving at the feet of a Harris who ran the length means Harris is slow. That's horseshit to nth degree.

[TXBRONC]

I'd take Joe Flacco in a foot race over Harris.......

Then you would lose every time. :coffee:

[Joel]

What I cant understand is the anger towards Moore, but nobody mentions Champ getting burnt all night. If he cant be on the Island alone anymore I think he does need a paycut. If we have to give him help, he isnt a top 5 CB.
I agree with the gist of your argument; Randy Moss was a burner AND a bruiser, but Champ never had trouble with him even when they faced each other twice a season (of course, it didn't matter how good Moss was until/unless JaMarcus Russell learned how to hit the broadside of a barn.) In his prime, no one said, "Champ can cover everyone except speedsters," because there WERE no exceptions to what Champ could cover: That's a shutdown corners defining attribute. So, flip side, if there are exceptions to what someone can cover, he's not a shutdown corner. Doesn't mean he sucks, he's just not the best anymore.

That said, the reason people are harder on Moore than on Champ is Moore hasn't stored up NEARLY as much credit (or any.) When he gives us 14 points on ONE play in a Divisional playoff game against NE, Moore will get some slack; right now all he's done is BLOW a Divisional playoff game, so he gets none.


Even at 35, I would take Bailey in a foot race over Harris
If you can talk them into it I'll take a piece of that action at 3:2. Champ hasn't fallen off enough we need to run down our up-and-coming young CBs just to make him look good by comparison. To beat a dead Bronco, when he gave him a 20 yard headstart and had to break a tackle Harris ALMOST couldn't outrun Flacco. Put it this way: Flacco started way ahead and finished a hair behind; what does that tell you? ;)

[Poet]

Moss was a bruiser? What?

[MOtorboat]

Moss was a bruiser? What?

Yeah, I don't know at this point...

:whoknows:

Harris is worthless, as you can see. Flacco ALMOST tackled him on the most important play of that game. He's shit. And Champ? Good lord, that dude is just atrocious now. :rolleyes:

[Simple Jaded]

I didn't say Harris was worthless, I said he's slow.......

[Poet]

Harris ran a 4.47 forty yard dash. He is not slow.

[shank]

I didn't say Harris was worthless, I said he's slow.......

now, now, while i don't agree with what you're saying, i'd damn well defend to the death the right of other people to call you stupid for saying it.

[Joel]

Moss was a bruiser? What?
At 6'4" and 215 lbs. Moss was big for a WR when drafted, and one of the first to habitually outmuscle DBs with size in additon to outrunning them; consistently doing both is what made him so feared (when he bothered to catch the ball.) Yet Champ never needed help covering him twice a year against Chokeland nor when he went to New England. He could probably still shut down Moss—but Moss retired for a reason.

Age is a fact of life, and very few people can play a speed position at 35. That's how old Champ will be Opening Day; I note that simply because many of us seem to be overlooking it.

[Npba900]

At 6'4" and 215 lbs. Moss was big for a WR when drafted, and one of the first to habitually outmuscle DBs with size in additon to outrunning them; consistently doing both is what made him so feared (when he bothered to catch the ball.) Yet Champ never needed help covering him twice a year against Chokeland nor when he went to New England. He could probably still shut down Moss—but Moss retired for a reason.

Age is a fact of life, and very few people can play a speed position at 35. That's how old Champ will be Opening Day; I note that simply because many of us seem to be overlooking it.

Not hoping for this, but keep in mind at this stage in Champs career the 2013 and beyond seasons, Champ could suddenly show his age at CB.

I'd love to see him moved to FS this season to close out his career like Rod Woodson was able to do. Woodson made the switch to FS at age 34 and retired age 38 wrapping up a 17 year career. Champ could do the same; why not allow Champ to become Ball Hawing FS for the last 3 or 4 years of his career.

In fact, in 2012 Baily should have made the switch to FS. Who knows Bailey could have intercepted Flacco during the 2nd overtime in the AFC title game last year, and the Broncos could have won and returned to the SB.

I don't want to see Champ struggle out there in 2013 at CB because he has lost a step and teams are capitalizing on it.

[Simple Jaded]

now, now, while i don't agree with what you're saying, i'd damn well defend to the death the right of other people to call you stupid for saying it.

And I fully support ya'lls God given right to be wrong.......

[Simple Jaded]

If Champ Bailey damn near got caught by Joe Flacco the same people would be screaming about "lost a step", FS and a paycut. No way in hell Flacco gets anywhere near Bailey in the same situation.......

[Poet]

But a silly claim is still a silly claim.

[Simple Jaded]

Claiming that running a 4.47 in Under Armour means he didn't get caught in pads is a silly claim.......

[Poet]

Claiming that running a 4.47 in Under Armour means he didn't get caught in pads is a silly claim.......

Good thing I didn't make that claim. They said he was throw, he clearly isn't. His forty time shows that he is not a slow player. Some guys play 'faster' with their pads on and some guys don't, but Harris is clearly not slow.

In regards to that play, A. it's one play, B. look at how far Harris ran than Flacco. C. Flacco is one of the more athletic and faster QB's in the game. Didn't he have a pretty impressive forty time, compared to most other starters?

[Simple Jaded]

A, it's one play that shows Harris is slow. B, Flacco had further to run and was blocked by Woodyard. C, Flacco is a 6-6 /240lb QB that ran 4.9 in the 40 (which, as we all know, is slower than 4.47).......

[Poet]

I'm sorry son, I can't do anything for you.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm sorry son, I can't do anything for you.

Well, you tried. Don't be so hard on yourself.......

[Poet]

I just watched the play again... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQnlQr9DX0s

Flacco had less field to run and by 'catching' him you mean Flacco got within three yards of Hariss before he lays out and touches the back of Harris' shoes. Flacco also got to take an angle, which means he had far less yardage to cover.

Come on man, Harris may not be a burner like Deion Sanders in his prime, but he's far from slow.

[Simple Jaded]

First there's Flacco's late reaction time whereas Harris hit the ground running. Second, Flacco had further to run considering he had to go around Woodyards block. Then there's the actual block. Harris had nothing but grass in front of him and got tripped by a huge freaking white dude.

Did I mention Harris is a 5-9 CB that got caught by a huge freaking white dude? That will never happen to Champ Bailey and half the Broncos fans want to put him out to pasture.......

[Simple Jaded]

I bet Lane Johnson could run Harris down, the Broncos should draft him and move him to S.......

[Joel]

Flaccos reaction was 20 yards upfield; again, he started way in front of Harris but finished behind him, which ought to tell you who's faster. He may have had to shove past Woodyard (which he effortlessly did) but didn't have to dodge tacklers for pretty much the length of the field (or do you think he was the only one trying to tackle Harris?)

No one's saying Champ should be put out to pasture, only moved to FS; safeties aren't exactly reduced to spectators (except Rahim Moore, of course. ;))

[MOtorboat]

Yes, let's move the All-Pro corner to safety.

Good idea.

[Poet]

First there's Flacco's late reaction time whereas Harris hit the ground running. Second, Flacco had further to run considering he had to go around Woodyards block. Then there's the actual block. Harris had nothing but grass in front of him and got tripped by a huge freaking white dude.

Did I mention Harris is a 5-9 CB that got caught by a huge freaking white dude? That will never happen to Champ Bailey and half the Broncos fans want to put him out to pasture.......

The reaction delay was less than half of a second. Flacco had less yards to run. Woodyard's 'block' lasted all of two seconds. As far as distance goes, Harris ran more yards, substantially more yards. He ran in a straight line about 100 yards. It's basic common sense. As far as getting tripped up, Flacco caught the back of his shoes LAYING OUT. The big white guy is 6'6 and with his arms extended he's going to cover a large area.

Flacco throws the ball at the nine yard mark. Harris catches the ball at around the two yard line.

So yes, you can call Harris slow and then cite ONE play to demonstrate it. You can do that, but it's factually inaccurate and a load of crapola.

[Simple Jaded]

Ok, he's not slow, he's just slow for a 5-9 NFL CB.......

[Poet]

Are you allergic to facts or something? Da faq?

[MOtorboat]

Are you allergic to facts or something? Da faq?

6-0, 210 is pretty decent size for a corner...

Not sure where the 5-9 came from.

[DenBronx]

Yeah Flacco diving at the feet of a Harris who ran the length means Harris is slow. That's horseshit to nth degree.

It's complete horseshit! Harris scored a TD and Flucco never was credited with a tackle. In the end he didnt run anyone down.

[chaoticmayhem]

Harris scored a TD. Flunko grabbed at air and face planted. Was awesome.

[Simple Jaded]

Semantics, Flacco ran him down. And Harris is not 6-0/210.

Curious how Harris has earned so much good will but Bailey would be criticized for the same exact play. Though, lets be honest, Bailey would have to be 45 to get caught by the likes of Joe Flacco.

Harris made "Fluko" look like Malcolm Jenkins.

[Superchop 7]

After the Dumberville screwing of the Broncos.....a team leader like Champ needs to step up and restructure with exactly a 4.8 million reduction in cap hit. He definately has slowed down, cant match up with burners so Broncos need to use him correctly.

[Ravage!!!]

After the Dumberville screwing of the Broncos.....a team leader like Champ needs to step up and restructure with exactly a 4.8 million reduction in cap hit. He definately has slowed down, cant match up with burners so Broncos need to use him correctly.

I want to see that sales pitch to Champ.

"Hey Champ, since the debacle hit our team with 4.8, we think you should pay for that out of your salary. I mean, you understand, right? You want to do the "right thing" and donate 5 million to our cap so that we can pay that money to someone else, dontcha?"

[Poet]

It's very entertaining to watch fans demand that players fork over their money to their employers.

[Rick]

Semantics, Flacco ran him down. And Harris is not 6-0/210.

Curious how Harris has earned so much good will but Bailey would be criticized for the same exact play. Though, lets be honest, Bailey would have to be 45 to get caught by the likes of Joe Flacco.

Harris made "Fluko" look like Malcolm Jenkins.

Jumping into this late...but if Harris made Flaco look like some speedster..what did the entire ravens team look like that because, if you remember, that slow ass guy ran it all the way back for a score.

[Simple Jaded]

Jumping into this late...but if Harris made Flaco look like some speedster..what did the entire ravens team look like that because, if you remember, that slow ass guy ran it all the way back for a score.

They looked disoriented by the sonic boom Harris left in his wake.

[Joel]

I want to see that sales pitch to Champ.

"Hey Champ, since the debacle hit our team with 4.8, we think you should pay for that out of your salary. I mean, you understand, right? You want to do the "right thing" and donate 5 million to our cap so that we can pay that money to someone else, dontcha?"
Rod Smith did it after consecutive Pro Bowl seasons, while playing on a hip his doctors demanded over a year earlierhe have season-ending surgery to repair. Aikman did it the year after winning his first Super Bowl and signing a $50 million contract that was eye-popping back then, because it was the only way Dallas could re-sign Emmitt to end the hold out that cost them the seasons first two games. Because that's what team players and leaders do to win championships.

I'm not saying Champ should eat the whole $5 million (we have another aging HoFer making even more this year, and his poor performance was pivotal in our playoff loss to Baltimore, too, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for any of that money to be returned.) There's ample precedent for great players financially taking one for the team though.

By the bye, the NFL and Wikipedia both list Broncos CB Chris Harris Jr. at 5'10" 190 lbs. He should not be confused with safety Chris Harris, who's listed at 6'0" 211 lbs. and retired when the Jags released him after last season. OURS ran a 4.48 40 at the Combine, but Torrey Smith ran a 4.43, so if the latter's a burner so is the former. Joe Flacco ran a 4.84. ;) http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Chris-Harris/6fb07762-c228-4b8e-9a2c-8007c6b1e5e2

Obviously we couldn't move Champ if it left us naked at CB. Yet we still have Tony Carter at least one more year, and with him, Harris and Rodger-Cromartie we would still be in far better shape at CB than we are at safety. There we have only aging journeymen Mike Adams and Jim Leonhard, then Rahim "Alley Oop" Moore and Quinton "No More Bets" Carter, the last of whom faces three felony charges in Vegas which could bring a League suspension even if a jury ignores what cameras show him doing.

[TXBRONC]

At 6'4" and 215 lbs. Moss was big for a WR when drafted, and one of the first to habitually outmuscle DBs with size in additon to outrunning them; consistently doing both is what made him so feared (when he bothered to catch the ball.) Yet Champ never needed help covering him twice a year against Chokeland nor when he went to New England. He could probably still shut down Moss—but Moss retired for a reason.

Age is a fact of life, and very few people can play a speed position at 35. That's how old Champ will be Opening Day; I note that simply because many of us seem to be overlooking it.

No Moss out jumped opposing defensive backs he didn't out muscle them.

[TXBRONC]

Are you allergic to facts or something? Da faq?

Yeah pretty much.

[Joel]

No Moss out jumped opposing defensive backs he didn't out muscle them.
I remember him doing both. Maybe not to the extent of guys like Marshall, but WRs emphasized speed over muscle when Moss was drafted, which made him that much stronger than most of his peers.

[TXBRONC]

I remember him doing both. Maybe not to the extent of guys like Marshall, but WRs emphasized speed over muscle when Moss was drafted, which made him that much stronger than most of his peers.

I don't remember him doing both.

[Joel]

The NYT and at least one Jets blogger remember Moss doing both: http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/happy-feet-how-wes-welker-makes-the-patriots-go/ http://www.ganggreennation.com/2011/5/23/2186412/randy-moss-still-on-gang-greens-radar But reasonable men can differ.

[Poet]

Maybe in his early years, but dude I just don't recall seeing it with any regularity. He didn't run enough shorter routes to make use of any of his strength.

[TXBRONC]

Maybe in his early years, but dude I just don't recall seeing it with any regularity. He didn't run enough shorter routes to make use of any of his strength.

Moss always preferred to run the longer routes.

[Nomad]

Moss always preferred to run the longer routes.

When he felt like playing;) :lol:

[Joel]

Maybe in his early years, but dude I just don't recall seeing it with any regularity. He didn't run enough shorter routes to make use of any of his strength.
Hard as it may be to believe, a few guys could keep up with him (there was this one guy in Washington and Denver...) and them he had to outfight. Very few CBs were fast enough to pace Moss AND strong enough to outfight him. When he bothered showing up, of course.

[Poet]

For all the talk of Moss not showing up, his year by year numbers are beastly. Look at them. Look at the game logs. He tanked in Oakland and the year he got traded from New England. http://www.nfl.com/player/randymoss/2502220/profile He tanked in Oakland. He didn't always give it 100%, but he was more of an asset to his team overall than the vast majority of guys who DID give it 100% all the time.

Ten years in he had a 23 TD year. He had one year in Minnesota where he didn't have 10 TD's. The vast majority of fans who cite his laziness embellish it to astronomical proportions. /rant

[TXBRONC]

When he felt like playing;) :lol:

"I'll play when I want to play."

[TXBRONC]

For all the talk of Moss not showing up, his year by year numbers are beastly. Look at them. Look at the game logs. He tanked in Oakland and the year he got traded from New England. http://www.nfl.com/player/randymoss/2502220/profile He tanked in Oakland. He didn't always give it 100%, but he was more of an asset to his team overall than the vast majority of guys who DID give it 100% all the time.

Ten years in he had a 23 TD year. He had one year in Minnesota where he didn't have 10 TD's. The vast majority of fans who cite his laziness embellish it to astronomical proportions. /rant

Well no they don't. His reputation was that if the ball was going to him he wasn't always playing very hard. Blocking for running backs and going over the middle we're not two things he wanted to do.

[Simple Jaded]

Randy Moss was ******* lazy to the point of arrogance. It was all or nothing from Moss.

[Poet]

You can't get 150 receiving TD's consistently playing half assed.

[Simple Jaded]

He didn't wear out his welcome everywhere he played because teams hate HoF skills.

[Poet]

And he didn't accumulate godlike first ballot HoF numbers because he jogged on half of his plays, either. The truth is in the middle, but only one side is exaggerating.

[Simple Jaded]

"Godlike" HoF numbers sounds like an exaggeration to me.

[Poet]

Then you are really unfamiliar with what he did in his career. Really, really unfamiliar with his career. He is hands down a top three WR of all-time. As talented as he was, you can't put up the staggering numbers of Moss and only try half the time.

[TXBRONC]

Then you are really unfamiliar with what he did in his career. Really, really unfamiliar with his career. He is hands down a top three WR of all-time. As talented as he was, you can't put up the staggering numbers of Moss and only try half the time.

I said he didn't always play hard that was a well earned reputation. If the ball wasn't going to him he didn't always put out maxium effort. Now if asked who I would take between him and his contemporay Terrell Owens I would take Randy Moss and his baggage any day of the week over Owen and his baggage.