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rationalfan
03-06-2013, 02:28 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/broncos-want-dumervil-to-take-a-pay-cut/

According to Albert Breer of NFL Network, the Broncos have asked Dumervil to take a pay cut. If he refuses, he could be taking a hike.

Ravage!!!
03-06-2013, 02:35 PM
I just don't see how he could be on the outs. Who would be replacing him that has the 'clout' that doom has at rushing the passer?

Traveler
03-06-2013, 02:36 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/broncos-want-dumervil-to-take-a-pay-cut/

According to Albert Breer of NFL Network, the Broncos have asked Dumervil to take a pay cut. If he refuses, he could be taking a hike.

Say it aint so! I call BS on the team releasing him. Might be the pass rusher Palantonio mentioned on Sirius NFL Radio yesterday. I expected to hear DJ news before something like this.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 02:38 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/broncos-want-dumervil-to-take-a-pay-cut/

According to Albert Breer of NFL Network, the Broncos have asked Dumervil to take a pay cut. If he refuses, he could be taking a hike.

I seriously doubt the Broncos get rid of Dumervil, he's most likely going to restructure his current contract, and Denver would have a hard time trading him alone with a 12 million dollar salary, not only that but Florio and Breer are making it sound like Manning was in the office helping make the personnel choices from the reports.

UnderArmour
03-06-2013, 02:38 PM
I don't see us cutting Doom. DJ Williams and Joe Mays should both be preparing for free agency though.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 02:42 PM
Vic Lombardi tweeted the same thing today, said the Broncos will likely cut him if he doesn't restructure.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 02:43 PM
I think Doom will restructure. I hope.

Northman
03-06-2013, 02:44 PM
That would suck if true (although im sure Jrwiz is doing the jig somewhere) as i like Doom. Not sure replacing him with an aging Freeney is the answer either. Especially considering Doom has had more sacks and tackles than him the last 3 years.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 02:47 PM
Vic Lombardi tweeted the same thing today, said the Broncos will likely cut him if he doesn't restructure.

I said before the off-season that Dumervil would be asked to restructure his current contract, but the reports that he'll be cut are a bit naive...I don't see Denver cutting their current career sack leader and most productive defensive lineman. And I doubt that Dumervil refuses, no team will touch him at that price, he'd have to take less anyways, even via trade. I just don't see it happening and it could be a move that could be disastrous for the franchise and their relationship with the fans.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 02:47 PM
We must be planning some pretty big splashes in free agency/trades since we are already way under the cap and still trying to restructure/maybe cut Doom. I'm interested in who we may be targeting. Revis? Welker?

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 02:54 PM
Vic Lombardi "I'm told Elvis IS open to restructuring"

Traveler
03-06-2013, 02:56 PM
We must be planning some pretty big splashes in free agency/trades since we are already way under the cap and still trying to restructure/maybe cut Doom. I'm interested in who we may be targeting. Revis? Welker?

Last I heard, we were just $10 million under now that Clady has been franchised. As for the release of Doom, no freaking way! How much of his signing bonus would be accelerated into this years cap if he reallly were to be cut?

NightTerror218
03-06-2013, 03:11 PM
dude had double digit sacks. He will not be released, it is a curtsy for them to ask for a reconstruction but even if he doesn't. His sacks and FF are worth it. He give us pressure when we drop Miller into coverage. If we can get a guy who can great pressure consistently in the middle then less chances of Doom getting double teams and will be a race with him and Miller to QB.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 03:14 PM
Vic Lombardi via Twitter:



The NFL's unlike the other sports. They don't like your contract, they'll cut you. All about guaranteed money. Elvis due 43M in guarantees


Elvis due to make $12m in '13, $10m in '14 and $9m in '15. Hence, they want him to restructure.


With Elvis due 31mill over the next three years, I can see Broncos asking him to restructure to similar money over 4-5 years. Pretty common


And I can see Elvis being perfectly agreeable to that. He knew this was coming.


Last thing. Broncos need to get Elvis deal restructured by March 17th, something to do about league year.


And I'm told Elvis IS open to restructuring.


Well, safe to say the broncos wouldn't be looking to slash his salary unless they were planning on spending it elsewhere.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 03:17 PM
When asked:


How much money would the Broncos get in cap relief this year?

Vic Lombardi replied:


Tough put a number on that. Once they cut DJ, it will change. Then they have to sign Clady. Could have 10-12 left.

And added:


Even though they franchised Clady, doesn't mean they're done negotiating. They'd prefer to hammer out a deal. This could help.




I'm wondering if everyone is following and I'm wasting my time. Haha.

Northman
03-06-2013, 03:22 PM
When asked:



Vic Lombardi replied:



And added:






I'm wondering if everyone is following and I'm wasting my time. Haha.

Not wasting your time. Its more convenient that your putting it here honestly.

Ziggy
03-06-2013, 03:22 PM
Last I heard, we were just $10 million under now that Clady has been franchised. As for the release of Doom, no freaking way! How much of his signing bonus would be accelerated into this years cap if he reallly were to be cut?

Joe Mays and DJ Williams cuts would add about another 10 million to the cap I believe. Since this is the year that teams have to spend a certain amount up to the cap, it looks like Elway might be getting ready to beef up in free agency and/or trades.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 03:22 PM
Nah, you aren't wasting time. A lot of the old fogies on here can barely use a computer let alone set up a twitter account!

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 03:28 PM
Some really insightful tweets from Andrew Mason related to this matter:


As w/ anything, cost is key. Not that #Broncos are strictly in "Moneyball" mode, but NFL's perennial contenders DO NOT overpay for assets.


To understand what Broncos want to be, look at the Giants (built by Ernie Accorsi, w/ whom Elway has talked) & Steelers (Fox's 1st NFL gig).


The Steelers' faces have changed since Fox was on Chuck Noll's staff, but philosophy of valuing assets, patience & trusting draft has not.


And with the Accorsi (and now Jerry Reese-led) Giants, you see their willingness to let players go when their price doesn't fit the plan.

chazoe60
03-06-2013, 03:29 PM
I got a twitter account to follow the Peyton Manning sweepstakes, once that ended so did my tweeting. I don't even think I would remember how to log in.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 03:36 PM
Some really insightful tweets from Andrew Mason related to this matter:

I keep seeing his name a lot. I need to follow him. In a non-creepy sounding way.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 03:40 PM
His contract needs to be restructured and I hope it does. I wouldnt be thrilled about cutting him, but if they did, I doubt he'd see an offer much better than what the restructure would offer...especially in guaranteed money.

Whatever is best for the team

Lancane
03-06-2013, 03:43 PM
Some really insightful tweets from Andrew Mason related to this matter:

That is great and dandy, if Denver had the depth to actually have such a defensive philosophy. It's one thing to spout such drivel, it's another to put it into play. Denver has one defensive tackle under contract and three defensive ends, they really can not afford to be thinking they're the Steelers or Giants when the production they do have is coming from key personnel, and who in the hell would have equal numbers to Dumervil? Wolfe? Who may be better suited as a pass rushing interior lineman? Ayers or Jackson? Both descent in rotation but have struggled to beat out anyone to start.

When Colorado passed the Recreational Marijuana Law, I didn't think Elway and Fox would be hittin' the pipe while making personnel decisions!

BeefStew25
03-06-2013, 03:44 PM
Lower his base, but guarantee more of it than the previous deal. Doom would do that in a heartbeat.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 03:46 PM
Could we get two solid players for Dooms price? (If he doesn't agree)

Traveler
03-06-2013, 03:50 PM
When asked:



Vic Lombardi replied:



And added:






I'm wondering if everyone is following and I'm wasting my time. Haha.

Appreciate the posting. Not a twitter"er" so I thank you for passing the tweets along.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 03:51 PM
Could we get two solid players for Dooms price? (If he doesn't agree)

Denver could maybe get Dwight Freeney and possibly Cullen Jenkins, but would either really help the defensive front match Dumervil's production? It's not like Denver would be able to get Melton and Johnson or Avril.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 03:53 PM
I hadn't read it when I posted about getting 2 players for Dooms price. But Lombardi said if Doom is gone, we will look at Freeney for about half of Dooms price and we could get another player.

SoCalImport
03-06-2013, 03:53 PM
Doom's contract was always a bit nutty. I'm sure he'll restructure (fingers crossed)

BeefStew25
03-06-2013, 03:53 PM
Lets get 12 players at a million each.

Dapper Dan
03-06-2013, 03:55 PM
Lets get 12 players at a million each.

There WAS that article someone posted that said Dooms production was worth something like $1.2 mill

BeefStew25
03-06-2013, 03:56 PM
There WAS that article someone posted that said Dooms production was worth something like $1.2 mill

I bet Ellis prints that article out and hands it to Doom's agent.

Ziggy
03-06-2013, 03:57 PM
Lets get 12 players at a million each.

From the NFL's (million) Dollar store.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:02 PM
I hadn't read it when I posted about getting 2 players for Dooms price. But Lombardi said if Doom is gone, we will look at Freeney for about half of Dooms price and we could get another player.

While I wouldn't mind Freeney across from Doom, as a replacement? Look at the number of injuries, the production and so forth...of course he'd come cheaper. We still haven't really found someone worth starting across from Dumvervil ourselves, Wolfe is capable but at 300lbs. he is likely best as an interior pass rusher. The only free agent that could be compared to Dumervil would be Johnson of Cincinnati or possibly Avril of Detroit and both are likely to receive large contracts elsewhere. I just don't see how this would be a positive move in becoming a championship team.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:02 PM
Denver could maybe get Dwight Freeney and possibly Cullen Jenkins, but would either really help the defensive front match Dumervil's production? It's not like Denver would be able to get Melton and Johnson or Avril.

So if we could get 12 sacks out of Freeney and Jenkins, while adding interior pass rush, it wouldnt be worth it?

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:03 PM
While I wouldn't mind Freeney across from Doom, as a replacement? Look at the number of injuries, the production and so forth...of course he'd come cheaper. We still haven't really found someone worth starting across from Dumvervil ourselves, Wolfe is capable but at 300lbs. he is likely best as an interior pass rusher. The only free agent that could be compared to Dumervil would be Johnson of Cincinnati or possibly Avril of Detroit and both are likely to receive large contracts elsewhere. I just don't see how this would be a positive move in becoming a championship team.

Didnt Johnson get tagged?

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:05 PM
Didnt Johnson get tagged?

I believe so...the point is Coach, they could be making a move based on a philosophy they can not put into play and would be a big 'What if' in the end.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:07 PM
I believe so...the point is Coach, they could be making a move based on a philosophy they can not put into play and would be a big 'What if' in the end.

Smart teams stick by their philosophies. It's not like cutting Doom would completely destroy out pass rush. We still have a top 3 pass rusher in the league in Miller and a very solid one in Wolfe. If we can get even 80% of Doom's production out of two players for half the price, that is smart business.

Now having said all of this, I think we restructure and this all becomes a moot point, but cutting him wouldn't be the end of the world.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:07 PM
I believe so...the point is Coach, they could be making a move based on a philosophy they can not put into play and would be a big 'What if' in the end.

I agree a questionable DL isnt something to toy around with, but I'll assume they have a plan in place before they make whatever decision they make.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:10 PM
So if we could get 12 sacks out of Freeney and Jenkins, while adding interior pass rush, it wouldnt be worth it?

Do you really believe that Jenkins and Freeney could bring that level of production? Freeney seems to be plagued by injuries and his production is up and down, and is likely to be a stop-gap starter at his age. And Cullen Jenkins while solid is just as up and down in production...there is no guarantees that both can even play the whole season without likely being injured.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:10 PM
Broncos want Dumervil to take a pay cut

Posted by Mike Florio on March 6, 2013, 2:10 PM EST

Well, now we know why Peyton Manning was recruiting Dwight Freeney.

Broncos defensive end Elvis Dumervil could be leaving the building. (Groan.) According to Albert Breer of NFL Network, the Broncos want Dumervil to take a pay cut. If he refuses the request that has not yet technically been made, he could be taking a hike.

READ FULL ARTICLE:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/broncos-want-dumervil-to-take-a-pay-cut/

GEM
03-06-2013, 04:12 PM
There WAS that article someone posted that said Dooms production was worth something like $1.2 mill

Did JRWiz open a new account we don't know about? I could see him saying that about the "one trick pony"

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:13 PM
Smart teams stick by their philosophies. It's not like cutting Doom would completely destroy out pass rush. We still have a top 3 pass rusher in the league in Miller and a very solid one in Wolfe. If we can get even 80% of Doom's production out of two players for half the price, that is smart business.

Now having said all of this, I think we restructure and this all becomes a moot point, but cutting him wouldn't be the end of the world.

You say that now...what if we sign both and Freeney is injured early on and we have Ayers or Jackson starting in his place? If not both.

And yes, smart teams stick by their philosophy...but only if they can impliment that philosophy...something Denver can not do at this time.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:14 PM
Do you really believe that Jenkins and Freeney could bring that level of production? Freeney seems to be plagued by injuries and his production is up and down, and is likely to be a stop-gap starter at his age. And Cullen Jenkins while solid is just as up and down in production...there is no guarantees that both can even play the whole season without likely being injured.

No one can really predict what they can or cant do to produce, but in the last few years, it occurs to me that Doom has missed some time due to injury as well. More so than those two combined.

I'm not advocating all of this, but if it's a better decision for the team then I support it.

Mike
03-06-2013, 04:15 PM
Do you really believe that Jenkins and Freeney could bring that level of production? Freeney seems to be plagued by injuries and his production is up and down, and is likely to be a stop-gap starter at his age. And Cullen Jenkins while solid is just as up and down in production...there is no guarantees that both can even play the whole season without likely being injured.

Doom has a history with injuries too. And while I don't want to see him go, he disappears on the field at times. He needs to restructure. No guarantees with anything, but with Miller on one side...I like the chances of a decent end getting pressure from the other side.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:15 PM
Going from Elvis to Freeny would be a major downgrade and might make teams double team Von Miller even more. I don't like this move at all. The duo of Von/Elvis is pretty damn exciting to watch. If we truly want to win now we need to keep him. He should restructure though and I hope it all goes smooth.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:16 PM
You say that now...what if we sign both and Freeney is injured early on and we have Ayers or Jackson starting in his place? If not both.

And yes, smart teams stick by their philosophy...but only if they can impliment that philosophy...something Denver can not do at this time.

What if Dumervil tears his pectoral again and misses another season? Any player could get hurt at any time. You can't let that alter your decision-making. You just have to assume the guys you sign will stay healthy and hope for the best. Every player in football is injury-prone if they get hit the wrong way.

Mike
03-06-2013, 04:16 PM
Going from Elvis to Freeny would be a major downgrade and might make teams double team Von Miller even more. I don't like this move at all. The duo of Von/Elvis is pretty damn exciting to watch. If we truly want to win now we need to keep him. He should restructure though and I hope it all goes smooth.

Certainly was exciting in that Ravens game.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:17 PM
I agree a questionable DL isnt something to toy around with, but I'll assume they have a plan in place before they make whatever decision they make.

This is the Broncos...how many times have such plans backfired for this team? Better have more then a plan, like a guarantee from God himself.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:19 PM
And let's take Freeney out of the equation and insert Umenyiora. Other than 2011, he hasnt missed any significant time in the last 5 years. Even then, he had 9 sacks in 9 games.

So what about a combo of Osi and Jenkins? Not good for the long term, but Osi is only 2 years older than Doom and I have to believe he could net 10+ sacks when not having to share as much time in the NYG rotation

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:19 PM
This is the Broncos...how many times have such plans backfired for this team? Better have more then a plan, like a guarantee from God himself.

I'm glad our front office doesn't share this pessimistic attitude. You can't cripple your decision making based on what MIGHT happen or what happened under past regimes. You have to have a strategy that you believe in and follow it no matter what. This is what successful teams do. Thankfully that seems to be how Elway operates, not under the panic of what MIGHT happen.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:21 PM
This is the Broncos...how many times have such plans backfired for this team? Better have more then a plan, like a guarantee from God himself.

I have to say I'm not quite as skeptical with Elway running the show.

VonDoom
03-06-2013, 04:21 PM
Lower his base, but guarantee more of it than the previous deal. Doom would do that in a heartbeat.

This makes the most sense to me.

First the rumors about Doom being involved in a Revis trade, and now this talk makes me think that there's actually something to it.

Fat Man put up a post about this, with cap numbers clearly stated:

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/broncos-may-cut-elvis-dumervil-or-his-pay

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:24 PM
I have to say I'm not quite as skeptical with Elway running the show.

Agreed. Elway doesn't seem like the type of person to just make an off-the-cuff personnel decision without evaluating the potential outcomes. If he's seriously considering cutting Doom if he doesn't agree to restructure, I'm sure he has a solid plan in place to move forward. Nothing he has done suggests to me that he doesn't know what he's doing.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:27 PM
Certainly was exciting in that Ravens game.


So you are saying it was Elvis fault for the secondary getting torched??? The left side of the Ravens OL is much better than the right side.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:27 PM
I know I'll be criticized for this, but was anyone really all that disappointed when Ayers was in the game last season? I think regular playing time gets him the same 10-11 sacks a season that we are paying Doom 12 mil for. We can hold our McDaniels grudges against Ayers all we want, but the answer could very well be in house.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:29 PM
I know I'll be criticized for this, but was anyone really all that disappointed when Ayers was in the game last season? I think regular playing time gets him the same 10-11 sacks a season that we are paying Doom 12 mil for. We can hold our McDaniels grudges against Ayers all we want, but the answer could very well be in house.

I think almost any competent DE could rack up 8-10 sacks with Miller commanding double teams on the other side. We all love Doom, but given the way our D is set up, his production isn't irreplaceable. It's crazy to pay him what we are now to be quite honest.

Having said this I'm not advocating that we cut him, just that we pay him less.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:30 PM
And let's take Freeney out of the equation and insert Umenyiora. Other than 2011, he hasnt missed any significant time in the last 5 years. Even then, he had 9 sacks in 9 games.

So what about a combo of Osi and Jenkins? Not good for the long term, but Osi is only 2 years older than Doom and I have to believe he could net 10+ sacks when not having to share as much time in the NYG rotation


Ok that is actually a guy I would want. Osi is one of the only guys I could see us replacing Dume with if we indeed cut him. But I like keeping our own players, hopefully this all works out. Whatever happens this move will happen by next Tuesday.

Mike
03-06-2013, 04:31 PM
So you are saying it was Elvis fault for the secondary getting torched??? The left side of the Ravens OL is much better than the right side.

I am saying that our pass rush was non-existent. Elvis is a part of that.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:33 PM
Ok that is actually a guy I would want. Osi is one of the only guys I could see us replacing Dume with if we indeed cut him. But I like keeping our own players, hopefully this all works out. Whatever happens this move will happen by next Tuesday.

I think it could happen. From what I understand, Freeney is wanting to go to the Giants and essentially take Osi's place since he is from NY. With the cap space we'd have from cutting Doom, DJ and Mays, we could afford Osi and quite a bit more.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:33 PM
I think almost any competent DE could rack up 8-10 sacks with Miller commanding double teams on the other side. We all love Doom, but given the way our D is set up, his production isn't irreplaceable. It's crazy to pay him what we are now to be quite honest.


No it isnt. It's crazy to pay DJ for sitting on the bench. It isnt crazy to pay a productive sack machine like Dume 9-10 mill a year. We sat through too many years during the Shanahan era to know that a lack of pass rush hurts a team. You can't Browncos the line every year.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:36 PM
I think it could happen. From what I understand, Freeney is wanting to go to the Giants and essentially take Osi's place since he is from NY. With the cap space we'd have from cutting Doom, DJ and Mays, we could afford Osi and quite a bit more.

Osi is the only guy on the market that would ease my mind a bit if we cut Dume. No one else on the market seems to fit our needs at DE. That opens up the draft to get another DE in rounds 2-4.

Then what do we do about Ayers??? He disapears every year and I expected way more from him.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:36 PM
No it isnt. It's crazy to pay DJ for sitting on the bench. It isnt crazy to pay a productive sack machine like Dume 9-10 mill a year. We sat through too many years during the Shanahan era to know that a lack of pass rush hurts a team. You can't Browncos the line every year.

We wouldn't lack a pass rush without Dumervil though. That's my point. We still have Miller and Wolfe. And there are plenty of competent DEs on the market who could come close to his production.

If Dumervil were our only competent pass rusher you would have a point, but that's not the case.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:39 PM
I am saying that our pass rush was non-existent. Elvis is a part of that.

Elvis didnt lose the game for us.

Bailey got torched all game, gave up game changing plays. Rahim put the nail in the coffin. Our secondary got exposed, with the exception of Chris Harris. I would even single out Manning for his late INT. So, I would look in other areas first before singling out Elvis. Just sayin...

And dont forget the body of work he did during the year Mike. It was a team loss against the Ravens and the defense kind of gave up, we should have won that game and the Ravens should not be World Champions right now.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:40 PM
No it isnt. It's crazy to pay DJ for sitting on the bench. It isnt crazy to pay a productive sack machine like Dume 9-10 mill a year. We sat through too many years during the Shanahan era to know that a lack of pass rush hurts a team. You can't Browncos the line every year.

I think we need to slow down with the "sack machine" comments. If we take out his 17 sack season while playing LB, he averages a little over 9 sacks per season and has eclipsed 10 only twice. Sorry, but we can get that kind of production for A LOT less than 10-12 mil a year.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:42 PM
I'm glad our front office doesn't share this pessimistic attitude. You can't cripple your decision making based on what MIGHT happen or what happened under past regimes. You have to have a strategy that you believe in and follow it no matter what. This is what successful teams do. Thankfully that seems to be how Elway operates, not under the panic of what MIGHT happen.

It's not pessimism, it's logic...especially given that they have a starting quarterback that wants and needs to win now, when you start to rid yourself of drafted talent and insert veterans that are not use to playing in the scheme, at the elevation of the venue, etc. then you risk a change in production if not worse. If Denver returns to Shanahan like ways, similar to what the Eagles recently tried, nine out of ten times you fail. Not to mention that you risk the future of a franchise. How many dream teams have won the Super Bowl and how many that drafted most of their own talent, kept that talent and added only a player here and there in free agency have won Championships? And what you said does hold some truth, there is a business side and I understand that...but I've also seen it backfire on this team more times then I can count. McGahee? Marshall? Cutler? Orton? Tebow? Plummer?...

I guess I may sound pessimistic, but I'm not. I just don't see who Denver can add that can be that big of a game changer...even Revis, because without a pass rush the defensive backs will struggle. Von Miller and Peyton Manning were both great moves, and so I have some faith in Elway...but I would have to question the move, especially if it does lead to the Broncos having the short end of the stick.

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:42 PM
Doom has a history with injuries too. And while I don't want to see him go, he disappears on the field at times. He needs to restructure. No guarantees with anything, but with Miller on one side...I like the chances of a decent end getting pressure from the other side.

Well, no offense but Miller has disappeared at times as well.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:42 PM
Osi is the only guy on the market that would ease my mind a bit if we cut Dume. No one else on the market seems to fit our needs at DE. That opens up the draft to get another DE in rounds 2-4.

Then what do we do about Ayers??? He disapears every year and I expected way more from him.

I still think we could get more from him...when he actually gets on the field, he produces. Game after game I see him getting pressure adn I always wonder why he doesnt get more PT. I have no clue why since I'm not a Broncos coach, but it just always seems he's playing his ass off in the limited opportunities he receives.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:42 PM
We wouldn't lack a pass rush without Dumervil though. That's my point. We still have Miller and Wolfe. And there are plenty of competent DEs on the market who could come close to his production.

If Dumervil were our only competent pass rusher you would have a point, but that's not the case.


Wolfe??? Really? lol

The only reason Wolfe even is on the radar is because of the Miller/Dume bookends. Take either Dume or Miller away and the other guy will get way more double teams. I dont see Miller getting more than 12 sacks with Dume gone, teams will always go after him.

Mike
03-06-2013, 04:44 PM
Elvis didnt lose the game for us.

Bailey got torched all game, gave up game changing plays. Rahim put the nail in the coffin. Our secondary got exposed, with the exception of Chris Harris. I would even single out Manning for his late INT. So, I would look in other areas first before singling out Elvis. Just sayin...

And dont forget the body of work he did during the year Mike. It was a team loss against the Ravens and the defense kind of gave up, we should have won that game and the Ravens should not be World Champions right now.

I didn't claim he lost the game for us. You said 'I don't like this move at all. The duo of Von/Elvis is pretty damn exciting to watch. If we truly want to win now we need to keep him." It wasn't very exciting in that game. In fact, there were several games where the pass rush was less than exciting. Both Miller and Dumerville disappeared at times during the season. That is all.

I like Doom and think Denver is better with him than without, but don't feel that he can't be replaced.

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:44 PM
I know I'll be criticized for this, but was anyone really all that disappointed when Ayers was in the game last season? I think regular playing time gets him the same 10-11 sacks a season that we are paying Doom 12 mil for. We can hold our McDaniels grudges against Ayers all we want, but the answer could very well be in house.

:lol:

No way dude.

Denver Native (Carol)
03-06-2013, 04:44 PM
If the Broncos can’t work a pay reduction with Elvis Dumervil, a league source said the team would be interested in pursuing former Indianapolis Colt pass rusher and Peyton Manning teammate Dwight Freeney.

The Colts have already announced they would allow Freeney to enter free agency when the market opens Tuesday.

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/03/06/dwight-freeney-would-be-on-broncos-radar-if-they-cant-work-out-new-deal-with-elvis-dumervil/18739/

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:45 PM
Wolfe??? Really? lol

The only reason Wolfe even is on the radar is because of the Miller/Dume bookends. Take either Dume or Miller away and the other guy will get way more double teams. I dont see Miller getting more than 12 sacks with Dume gone, teams will always go after him.

I think you are really overrating how good Doom is. Like Chaz said, take out his 17 sack season and tell me if his production matches his salary. He's a good pass rusher no doubt, but let's not act like he deserves to be one of the most highly paid DEs in the NFL.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:47 PM
It's not pessimism, it's logic...especially given that they have a starting quarterback that wants and needs to win now, when you start to rid yourself of drafted talent and insert veterans that are not use to playing in the scheme, at the elevation of the venue, etc. then you risk a change in production if not worse. If Denver returns to Shanahan like ways, similar to what the Eagles recently tried, nine out of ten times you fail. Not to mention that you risk the future of a franchise. How many dream teams have won the Super Bowl and how many that drafted most of their own talent, kept that talent and added only a player here and there in free agency have won Championships? And what you said does hold some truth, there is a business side and I understand that...but I've also seen it backfire on this team more times then I can count. McGahee? Marshall? Cutler? Orton? Tebow? Plummer?...

I guess I may sound pessimistic, but I'm not. I just don't see who Denver can add that can be that big of a game changer...even Revis, because without a pass rush the defensive backs will struggle. Von Miller and Peyton Manning were both great moves, and so I have some faith in Elway...but I would have to question the move, especially if it does lead to the Broncos having the short end of the stick.

I'll say this. The cap has been handled internally to be able to deal with the future. So, when Miller and DT are due pay days, we'll be in good shape. So why not play for the now as well? if we cut Doom and it frees up the money to sign some vets to short term contracts, then we can focus on drafting our future to take over when those guys are gone. Are we better with a 12 mil/10 sack DE for a few years or would we be better with a 10+ sack DE a tough RB and a pass rushing DT...all for roughly the same price?

Leave the names out of it and tell me which scenario works better from the perspective of the TEAM

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:48 PM
It's not pessimism, it's logic...especially given that they have a starting quarterback that wants and needs to win now, when you start to rid yourself of drafted talent and insert veterans that are not use to playing in the scheme, at the elevation of the venue, etc. then you risk a change in production if not worse. If Denver returns to Shanahan like ways, similar to what the Eagles recently tried, nine out of ten times you fail. Not to mention that you risk the future of a franchise. How many dream teams have won the Super Bowl and how many that drafted most of their own talent, kept that talent and added only a player here and there in free agency have won Championships? And what you said does hold some truth, there is a business side and I understand that...but I've also seen it backfire on this team more times then I can count. McGahee? Marshall? Cutler? Orton? Tebow? Plummer?...

I guess I may sound pessimistic, but I'm not. I just don't see who Denver can add that can be that big of a game changer...even Revis, because without a pass rush the defensive backs will struggle. Von Miller and Peyton Manning were both great moves, and so I have some faith in Elway...but I would have to question the move, especially if it does lead to the Broncos having the short end of the stick.


If Elway and crew havent been paying attention the last few years than we will just forever go into the same circle of not having a pass rush and getting our secondary torched weekly. Trust me, if they cut Doom and dont get someone who can do what he does it will backfire immensely. Funny how people say that we can easily replace Doom yet it wasnt until we got Doom that we actually had a player who can pressure the QB.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:49 PM
I think we need to slow down with the "sack machine" comments. If we take out his 17 sack season while playing LB, he averages a little over 9 sacks per season and has eclipsed 10 only twice. Sorry, but we can get that kind of production for A LOT less than 10-12 mil a year.

He's played 6 years and has 63 1/2 sacks. That is over 10 sacks a year average. You cant count the year he was on IR because he never saw the field.

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:50 PM
Wolfe??? Really? lol

The only reason Wolfe even is on the radar is because of the Miller/Dume bookends. Take either Dume or Miller away and the other guy will get way more double teams. I dont see Miller getting more than 12 sacks with Dume gone, teams will always go after him.

I dont get the logic either mate. :lol:

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:50 PM
If Elway and crew havent been paying attention the last few years than we will just forever go into the same circle of not having a pass rush and getting our secondary torched weekly. Trust me, if they cut Doom and dont get someone who can do what he does it will backfire immensely. Funny how people say that we can easily replace Doom yet it wasnt until we got Doom that we actually had a player who can pressure the QB.

No offense, but that isnt saying much. Compared to where we were before Doom, he could get 7 sacks a season and be considered an elite pass rusher in comparison.

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:51 PM
rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/03/06/dwight-freeney-would-be-on-broncos-radar-if-they-cant-work-out-new-deal-with-elvis-dumervil/18739/

And this would be a regression. Again, if your going to cut a guy like Doom than at least get someone who has played better than him the last few years.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 04:51 PM
We wouldn't lack a pass rush without Dumervil though. That's my point. We still have Miller and Wolfe. And there are plenty of competent DEs on the market who could come close to his production.

If Dumervil were our only competent pass rusher you would have a point, but that's not the case.

Can you guarantee that Wolfe will improve? He is a 300lbs. defensive end in a 43 scheme. Miller can only be as effective if they're worried about another pass rusher which in Denver's case was Dumervil...take that away and Von is going to start being less productive as will our overall pass defense. I would agree with you if Ayers or Jackson were even somewhat reliable rushing the passer and they added Freeney or Avril, and that is what the Giants are capable of. It's quite possible that the Broncos get veteran players who are nothing more then stop-gaps, but eventually it would need to be addressed through adding young, drafted talent which can be just as risky. My only hope is that if they decide to go forth without Dumervil, that they're not replacing him with veterans who are a year or two from retirement and can actually help the team as more then stop-gap answers.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:51 PM
I think you are really overrating how good Doom is. Like Chaz said, take out his 17 sack season and tell me if his production matches his salary. He's a good pass rusher no doubt, but let's not act like he deserves to be one of the most highly paid DEs in the NFL.

I'm not saying don't ask the guy to restructure. What I AM saying is don't cut him. Contrary to what you think, 11 sacks a year is good.

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:51 PM
No offense, but that isnt saying much. Compared to where we were before Doom, he could get 7 sacks a season and be considered an elite pass rusher in comparison.

Just wait and see if we cut him for Freeney.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:54 PM
I dont get the logic either mate. :lol:

So you don't get economics?

Not one person is saying that Doom isn't a good pass rusher or that he doesn't add value to our team. The point is that he's getting paid like an elite DE and while he is certainly above average, his production doesn't match his salary.

I think we all agree that a restructured deal to keep Doom would be the best outcome for the team. But if our options are paying him 13 mil a year for 10 sacks, or paying maybe 8-10 mil for one or two replacement level players and getting 8-9 sacks out of them (which is realistic given the attention Miller would get), I think it's pretty obvious which one of those is the better call.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:54 PM
He's played 6 years and has 63 1/2 sacks. That is over 10 sacks a year average. You cant count the year he was on IR because he never saw the field.

Again...take out the anomoly that is the 17 sack season when he played LB. After that, he has 5 years as a DE and 46.5 sacks in that time. 9.3 sacks per season. Then you have a guy like Umeniyora who has averaged 8.3 at DE. One less sack per season and he'd cost ALOT less while opening up room to improve other areas of the team as well.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:54 PM
rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/03/06/dwight-freeney-would-be-on-broncos-radar-if-they-cant-work-out-new-deal-with-elvis-dumervil/18739/

I hope Elway stands firm and isnt listening to this noise. Freeney just seems like a bad move to me right now. I can see getting Osi but not Freeney because I believe he has seen his last days of making an impact as a DE.

Northman
03-06-2013, 04:54 PM
I'm not saying don't ask the guy to restructure. What I AM saying is don't cut him. Contrary to what you think, 11 sacks a year is good.

Very good.

There were only 15 DE's who got 10 or more sacks last year. And yes, Freeney wasnt one of them.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 04:55 PM
I'm not saying don't ask the guy to restructure. What I AM saying is don't cut him. Contrary to what you think, 11 sacks a year is good.

Can you show me where I said 11 sacks a year isn't good?

I've never criticized his production. Only what he is paid for what he produces.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:55 PM
I'm not saying don't ask the guy to restructure. What I AM saying is don't cut him. Contrary to what you think, 11 sacks a year is good.

Good...yes. 10-12 mil a year good...not quite as much

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:56 PM
Again...take out the anomoly that is the 17 sack season when he played LB. After that, he has 5 years as a DE and 46.5 sacks in that time. 9.3 sacks per season. Then you have a guy like Umeniyora who has averaged 8.3 at DE. One less sack per season and he'd cost ALOT less while opening up room to improve other areas of the team as well.

You cant take it out. Do we take out Mannings record breaking TD passes? Doesnt make sense to take out a guys accomplishments. Want me to also take out the 11 sacks he had last year too??? lol

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:57 PM
I hope Elway stands firm and isnt listening to this noise. Freeney just seems like a bad move to me right now. I can see getting Osi but not Freeney because I believe he has seen his last days of making an impact as a DE.

Freeney wouldnt be my first choice either

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 04:58 PM
Can you show me where I said 11 sacks a year isn't good?

I've never criticized his production. Only what he is paid for what he produces.

So you think 11 sacks a year IS good but not good enough to get paid for it.

Oooook ...lol.

Your logic is very odd here.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 04:58 PM
You cant take it out. Do we take out Mannings record breaking TD passes? Doesnt make sense to take out a guys accomplishments. Want me to also take out the 11 sacks he had last year too??? lol

I take it out because we are talking about his abilities as a pass rushing DE...not as a 3-4 LB. He has never come anywhere close to that number playing DE and that's the position he plays now, so the 17 sacks as a LB is irrelevant when determining value because he is no longer a 17 sack LB. He's a 10 sack DE.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:00 PM
You cant take it out. Do we take out Mannings record breaking TD passes? Doesnt make sense to take out a guys accomplishments. Want me to also take out the 11 sacks he had last year too??? lol

You most certainly can take out outliers when examining data. Especially since he wasn't even playing 4-3 DE in that season. We are paying him to be a 4-3 DE, not a 3-4 OLB. His stats as a 3-4 OLB aren't relevant when assessing what to pay him as a 4-3 DE.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:01 PM
So you think 11 sacks a year IS good but not good enough to get paid for it.

Oooook ...lol.

Your logic is very odd here.

Not 12 million good. Anthony Spencer, Greg Hardy, Chris Long, Chris Clemons...would you pay 12 mil a year for any of them?

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:01 PM
So you think 11 sacks a year IS good but not good enough to get paid for it.

Oooook ...lol.

Your logic is very odd here.

As a 4-3 DE (which is what we are paying him to be), he doesn't get 11 sacks per year.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:03 PM
I will also add this, Osi has also had the luxury of having a much better Dline around him than Doom ever has. Yea, lets slight a guy who has for the most part had utter crap surrounding him until Von arrived and even then its not even on the level that the Giants have/had on that line. Assuming that Osi would be able to repeat (although he did have a massive 6 sacks this year. lol) his supposed dominance with the likes of Strahan, Tuck,, and Pierre Paul is stretching it.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:04 PM
Not 12 million good. Anthony Spencer, Greg Hardy, Chris Long, Chris Clemons...would you pay 12 mil a year for any of them?

Long- Easily.

As for the rest, would i pay them that much if i had Tuck, Paul, or a guy like Strahan playing with them? No. But when you have the wonder wheel names we have working with him on that line damn right i pay him. He's the best player on that damn line.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:05 PM
I will also add this, Osi has also had the luxury of having a much better Dline around him than Doom ever has. Yea, lets slight a guy who has for the most part had utter crap surrounding him until Von arrived and even then its not even on the level that the Giants have/had on that line. Assuming that Osi would be able to repeat (although he did have a massive 6 sacks this year. lol) his supposed dominance with the likes of Strahan, Tuck,, and Pierre Paul is stretching it.

How hard is it to get it through your head that no one is slighting Doom? We are only slighting his contract. The Broncos are trying to cut his pay for a reason, and it's not because they are stupid.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:05 PM
I take it out because we are talking about his abilities as a pass rushing DE...not as a 3-4 LB. He has never come anywhere close to that number playing DE and that's the position he plays now, so the 17 sacks as a LB is irrelevant when determining value because he is no longer a 17 sack LB. He's a 10 sack DE.


You most certainly can take out outliers when examining data. Especially since he wasn't even playing 4-3 DE in that season. We are paying him to be a 4-3 DE, not a 3-4 OLB. His stats as a 3-4 OLB aren't relevant when assessing what to pay him as a 4-3 DE.

Nolan asked him to do differant things in the 3-4. Not everyone can play OLB. Why doesnt Woodyard have more than 5 sacks then??? It's a totally differant scheme. Elvis actually help Miller get more sacks then he should have last year and Elvis actually rushes from the blindside, you know those pesky LTs (the NFLs highest paid linemen).

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:08 PM
How hard is it to get it through your head that no one is slighting Doom? We are only slighting his contract. The Broncos are trying to cut his pay for a reason, and it's not because they are stupid.

I think it has more to do with Paying Manning 20 mill a year and Champ 10 mill a year. Elway even said about a month ago that he would expect Manning to restructure his contract if needed. All Elway wants to do right now is restructure Dumes contract, that's it!

Lancane
03-06-2013, 05:08 PM
I'll say this. The cap has been handled internally to be able to deal with the future. So, when Miller and DT are due pay days, we'll be in good shape. So why not play for the now as well? if we cut Doom and it frees up the money to sign some vets to short term contracts, then we can focus on drafting our future to take over when those guys are gone. Are we better with a 12 mil/10 sack DE for a few years or would we be better with a 10+ sack DE a tough RB and a pass rushing DT...all for roughly the same price?

Leave the names out of it and tell me which scenario works better from the perspective of the TEAM

DT? Really, he dissapears more then Dumervil... One good season with a HOF quarterback doesn't make him an All-Pro. And great personnel management see's bigger rewards: Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New York and New England are prime examples. They don't let talent walk so easily away unless they are sure they can replace the athlete in question, and might be why those teams are continually favorites, and yes I know Pittsburgh has declined as has Baltimore, but they've both won Super Bowls more recently then Denver. Look at San Francisco and Seattle, they're doing much the same as the aforementioned teams.

I will admit that if Denver signed a younger proven veterans compared to the likes of those on their last leg, then it could be good for the team. If Denver trades or cuts Dumervil and they sign Richard Seymour and Dwight Freeney, then they are nuts in my book.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:08 PM
How hard is it to get it through your head that no one is slighting Doom? We are only slighting his contract. The Broncos are trying to cut his pay for a reason, and it's not because they are stupid.

His contract is fine (my opinion) considering his talent level compared to the other scrubs on the line. Doom doesnt get to benefit like some of the top flight DE's do with surrounding talent. ****, even Freeney had the luxury of having Mathis there on the other side.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:09 PM
As a 4-3 DE (which is what we are paying him to be), he doesn't get 11 sacks per year.

So the 11 sacks last year dont count???

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:09 PM
His contract is fine (my opinion) considering his talent level compared to the other scrubs on the line. Doom doesnt get to benefit like some of the top flight DE's do with surrounding talent. ****, even Freeney had the luxury of having Mathis there on the other side.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you actually serious right now? So I was only dreaming that he had Von Miller on the other side of him the last two seasons?

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:10 PM
In the end this is much ado about nothing. I dont think Elway would be that big of a McDouche to cut Doom. Until it actually happens i have faith that they will work it all out.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:11 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you actually serious right now? So I was only dreaming that he had Von Miller on the other side of him the last two seasons?


Talk about following a post. Im talking on the actual Dline, not LB.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:11 PM
Nolan asked him to do differant things in the 3-4. Not everyone can play OLB. Why doesnt Woodyard have more than 5 sacks then??? It's a totally differant scheme. Elvis actually help Miller get more sacks then he should have last year and Elvis actually rushes from the blindside, you know those pesky LTs (the NFLs highest paid linemen).

All this talk about Elvis helping Miller...but what about looking at it the other way? Doesnt Miller do his fair share to help Doom? It works both ways. but again, I'm not saying Doom sucks. I'm jujst saying his contract isnt justified for a 10 sack DE. if we can find another guy to get 8-10 for less and it let's us add someone to the interior rush, then I'm all for it. In a perfect world, Doom has a lower salary and we have options while keeping him on the roster.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:11 PM
So the 11 sacks last year dont count???

Huh? Are you even following what we are saying. Of course the 11 sacks last year count, but he doesn't AVERAGE that much over his career when playing DE. He averages about 9.5. While that certainly isn't terrible, it isn't worth Top 5 DE money.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:12 PM
So the 11 sacks last year dont count???

I think he meant on average. Which as a DE is 9.3 per year over his career

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:12 PM
Talk about following a post. Im talking on the actual Dline, not LB.

Who cares if the talent around him is a LB instead of a D-Lineman? He's still had an elite pass rusher on the other side taking pressure off him him for the last 2 seasons.

Ravage!!!
03-06-2013, 05:12 PM
You can't simply remove the stats of a guy's best season. If you are going to try and do that, remove his best AND worst season and then divide whats left.

That's 10.25 sacks. If you don't count a kid's rookie season, and take out his best and worst, then he's 11 sacks a season.

If we are going to simply remove stats, then I'm going to remove the season where he was injured... and he averages 11.7 sacks a season.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:13 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you actually serious right now? So I was only dreaming that he had Von Miller on the other side of him the last two seasons?


Since you guys are into taking the important things like stats out then take Miller out. Who in the hell else do we have? Wolfe???

Besides Elvis was in the top 15 last year for sacks. No one else in the market was in the top 15. You dont downgrade when you are on your way to another SB.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:14 PM
Who cares if the talent around him is a LB instead of a D-Lineman? He's still had an elite pass rusher on the other side taking pressure off him him for the last 2 seasons.

OMG. lmao

Im done even discussing this with you. Holy shit. bwhahahahahahaa

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:14 PM
You can't simply remove the stats of a guy's best season. If you are going to try and do that, remove his best AND worst season and then divide whats left.

That's 10.25 sacks. If you don't count a kid's rookie season, and take out his best and worst, then he's 11 sacks a season.

If we are going to simply remove stats, then I'm going to remove the season where he was injured... and he averages 11.7 sacks a season.

I don't get it either Rav. This might be one of the most mind boggling things ive read in a while. :lol::lol::lol:

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:15 PM
You can't simply remove the stats of a guy's best season. If you are going to try and do that, remove his best AND worst season and then divide whats left.

That's 10.25 sacks. If you don't count a kid's rookie season, and take out his best and worst, then he's 11 sacks a season.

If we are going to simply remove stats, then I'm going to remove the season where he was injured... and he averages 11.7 sacks a season.

We're not removing it because it was his best season. We're removing it because he was playing a different position than what he is being paid for now. We're paying him to be a 4-3 DE, not a 3-4 OLB like he was when he got 17 sacks.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:15 PM
You can't simply remove the stats of a guy's best season. If you are going to try and do that, remove his best AND worst season and then divide whats left.

That's 10.25 sacks. If you don't count a kid's rookie season, and take out his best and worst, then he's 11 sacks a season.

If we are going to simply remove stats, then I'm going to remove the season where he was injured... and he averages 11.7 sacks a season.

6 actual years of stats. 5 of them playing the position he currently plays. his stats playing DE...the position he actually plays now equal 9.3 sacks per season. if we were discussing paying him to be a LB, then he'd average 17 sacks per season in that position and that would be worth his contract. his current production at his current position isnt worth it.

Would you pay Manning 18 mil to play RB?

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:16 PM
OMG. lmao

Im done even discussing this with you. Holy shit. bwhahahahahahaa

I guess you're don't believing in Elway too, because the fact that he is trying to get Doom to restructure shows that he has the same thought process on the matter.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:16 PM
Im still laughing at the idea that Ayers and Wolfe are even comparable. lmao

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:17 PM
I guess you're don't believing in Elway too, because the fact that he is trying to get Doom to restructure shows that he has the same thought process on the matter.

No it doesnt. All it could mean is they want to add more talent, it doesnt mean they dont think he is worth the money. Get that shit out of here.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:17 PM
We should fire John Elway and have this message board dictate Denver's moves. Clearly he has no idea what he is doing.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:17 PM
Huh? Are you even following what we are saying. Of course the 11 sacks last year count, but he doesn't AVERAGE that much over his career when playing DE. He averages about 9.5. While that certainly isn't terrible, it isn't worth Top 5 DE money.

So you are hung up on the year he was on IR for a torn pectoral muscle?

I go by the years he actually got to play and when Dumes on the field he is always a threat to crush the QB.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:17 PM
Since you guys are into taking the important things like stats out then take Miller out. Who in the hell else do we have? Wolfe???

Besides Elvis was in the top 15 last year for sacks. No one else in the market was in the top 15. You dont downgrade when you are on your way to another SB.

I think that's the part of the equation that is missing. If we can fill 2 or 3 or 4 positions of need with quality players by cutting his salary along with DJ and Mays...are we downgrading or upgrading the TEAM.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:17 PM
I suppose when they asked TD to restructure it really meant that he wasnt as great a RB as they thought too right? lmao hilarous.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:19 PM
I think that's the part of the equation that is missing. If we can fill 2 or 3 or 4 positions of need with quality players by cutting his salary along with DJ and Mays...are we downgrading or upgrading the TEAM.

If thats the case, cut Manning as well. You can find a QB serviceable and make a SB run. I mean ****, Flacco did it.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:20 PM
I think that's the part of the equation that is missing. If we can fill 2 or 3 or 4 positions of need with quality players by cutting his salary along with DJ and Mays...are we downgrading or upgrading the TEAM.

I can see a case for cutting DJ and Mays, I cant see us cutting Dume. Just doesnt make sense at all. We will try and restructure him but thats where it ends, we wont let him go.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:20 PM
Im still laughing at the idea that Ayers and Wolfe are even comparable. lmao

I mentioned Ayers because we have no clue what he can do other than produce in the limited opportunities he gets. last year he got roughly 20% of the field time that Doom did and put up roughly 20% of the production.

As I said, who knows why he doesnt get more time as none of us are in the locker room, but I always know when he's on the field.

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:20 PM
If thats the case, cut Manning as well. You can find a QB serviceable and make a SB run. I mean ****, Flacco did it.

Damn! haha

And Flaccos not even near as good as Manning and now he's the leagues highest paid QB.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:21 PM
We should fire John Elway and have this message board dictate Denver's moves. Clearly he has no idea what he is doing.


He isnt perfect.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:21 PM
So you are hung up on the year he was on IR for a torn pectoral muscle?

I go by the years he actually got to play and when Dumes on the field he is always a threat to crush the QB.

WTF are you talking about? No one is talking about his IR year. He has played 5 seasons in the NFL as a 4-3 DE. That is what we are paying him to be. In those 5 years he has gotten 8.5, 12.5, 5, 9.5, and 11 sacks. That comes out to an average of 9.3 sacks per season as a 4-3 DE. This has nothing to do with his IR year.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:22 PM
I mentioned Ayers because we have no clue what he can do other than produce in the limited opportunities he gets. last year he got roughly 20% of the field time that Doom did and put up roughly 20% of the production.

As I said, who knows why he doesnt get more time as none of us are in the locker room, but I always know when he's on the field.

Because he sucks? Seriously man. Your going to haggle Doom's contract when he clearly produces more than other other Dlineman we have but then go with the assumption that Ayers "might" be able to do it? All that coming on the heels of a guy who has had chance after chance as a first rounder to win a starting job? Really?

Ravage!!!
03-06-2013, 05:23 PM
6 actual years of stats. 5 of them playing the position he currently plays. his stats playing DE...the position he actually plays now equal 9.3 sacks per season. if we were discussing paying him to be a LB, then he'd average 17 sacks per season in that position and that would be worth his contract. his current production at his current position isnt worth it.

Would you pay Manning 18 mil to play RB?

Guys, thats an ABSURD comparison. Pass rushing DE's get paid more than LBs do, anyway. To say that Doom was "playing" a different position simply because we were in a 34 instead of a 43...although categorically correct... is STRETCHING the reality of what his job is/was...getting to the QB. He's done that, on average, double digit times per season.

To try and make the distinction of his "position" in those two defensive alignments is just doing your best to win a point.. a point that has absolutely no relevance. If it does have any connection, its so ridiculously small, that it's moot.

The NFL is about passing the ball, and getting TO the passer.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:25 PM
Damn! haha

And Flaccos not even near as good as Manning and now he's the leagues highest paid QB.

I mean seriously. If its about cash and getting more bang for your buck you can save a shitload but dumping Manning. As already pointed out, restructuring is fine. But dont cut the only talent you have on the team for the sake of it. When Denver won their championships they were able to restructure and yet keep the talent intact. I dont ever recall them cutting talented players and filling the roster up with 3-4 guys who do the same thing. You simply draft smart, restructure the guys you can (but keep) and sign guys to fill in as depth.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 05:26 PM
I mentioned Ayers because we have no clue what he can do other than produce in the limited opportunities he gets. last year he got roughly 20% of the field time that Doom did and put up roughly 20% of the production.

As I said, who knows why he doesnt get more time as none of us are in the locker room, but I always know when he's on the field.

What about 2011, he was the starter across from Dumervil for thirteen of those contests? Ayers has been given every opportunity to be a starter and has either been updended by himself or others. Hunter beat him out to be the starter and then Wolfe.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:28 PM
Guys, thats an ABSURD comparison. Pass rushing DE's get paid more than LBs do, anyway. To say that Doom was "playing" a different position simply because we were in a 34 instead of a 43...although categorically correct... is STRETCHING the reality of what his job is/was...getting to the QB. He's done that, on average, double digit times per season.

To try and make the distinction of his "position" in those two defensive alignments is just doing your best to win a point.. a point that has absolutely no relevance. If it does have any connection, its so ridiculously small, that it's moot.

The NFL is about passing the ball, and getting TO the passer.

Are you kidding me? Are you seriously suggesting there is no differences in playing a 3-4 joker compared to a 4-3 end? Even if just discussing the pass rush element of the comparison there is a world of difference.

Ravage!!!
03-06-2013, 05:29 PM
I honestlly think the discussions about cutting Doom are moot...he's not going anywhere. He knew his contract had to be renegotiated at this point, and he's going to get more guaranteed money to restructure. He's going to restructure and there won't be a problem. Doom will be back next season.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:31 PM
What about 2011, he was the starter across from Dumervil for thirteen of those contests? Ayers has been given every opportunity to be a starter and has either been updended by himself or others. Hunter beat him out to be the starter and then Wolfe.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that he IS the answer. Just saying there is an option to play that end position if indeed the people that run the team like it. People hear something that tightens their panties and they take it so damn literally.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:31 PM
I honestlly think the discussions about cutting Doom are moot...he's not going anywhere. He knew his contract had to be renegotiated at this point, and he's going to get more guaranteed money to restructure. He's going to restructure and there won't be a problem. Doom will be back next season.

I dont think he is going anywhere either. No point making my head hurt over talk when nothing has happened yet.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:32 PM
I honestlly think the discussions about cutting Doom are moot...he's not going anywhere. He knew his contract had to be renegotiated at this point, and he's going to get more guaranteed money to restructure. He's going to restructure and there won't be a problem. Doom will be back next season.

And if he restructures and stays with the team and opens up more cap space for us...great. That's the best solution and one that the team wants as well.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:32 PM
I dont think he is going anywhere either. No point making my head hurt over talk when nothing has happened yet.

Well since nothing has happened at this point in the offseason it's either talk about things like this or talk about nothing. All we can do is speculate right now.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:34 PM
Well since nothing has happened at this point in the offseason it's either talk about things like this or talk about nothing. All we can do is speculate right now.

Unfortunately the speculating becomes arguing over shit that hasnt even happened and realistically its just a waste of time.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:36 PM
Unfortunately the speculating becomes arguing over shit that hasnt even happened and realistically its just a waste of time.

One could argue that posting so much on a message board is a waste of time in the first place. My girlfriend certainly thinks so! :lol:

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:36 PM
Unfortunately the speculating becomes arguing over shit that hasnt even happened and realistically its just a waste of time.

It's what we all do best. This place would burn down if we didnt argue over stupid shit

Lancane
03-06-2013, 05:37 PM
I'm not trying to convince anyone that he IS the answer. Just saying there is an option to play that end position if indeed the people that run the team like it. People hear something that tightens their panties and they take it so damn literally.

This has nothing to do with your panties...but with what the team may or may not do regarding a key member of a very depleted defensive front!;)

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:37 PM
One could argue that posting so much on a message board is a waste of time in the first place. My girlfriend certainly thinks so! :lol:

My wife rolls her eyes and inevitably starts the "I wish you paid attention to me that way" conversation. So I try not to bother with it too much after work.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:38 PM
One could argue that posting so much on a message board is a waste of time in the first place. My girlfriend certainly thinks so! :lol:


Yea, my wife says it too. She's probably right.

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:38 PM
This has nothing to do with your panties...but with what the team may or may not do regarding a key member of a very depleted defensive front!;)

I know and that's why I said...if they lose Doom, but can add an Osi and a Jenkins in the process...it helps the team

Lot's of if's, but I leave that up to Elway and Co. to figure out. I doubt they'd let him go without a back-up plan that benefitted the team

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 05:38 PM
WTF are you talking about? No one is talking about his IR year. He has played 5 seasons in the NFL as a 4-3 DE. That is what we are paying him to be. In those 5 years he has gotten 8.5, 12.5, 5, 9.5, and 11 sacks. That comes out to an average of 9.3 sacks per season as a 4-3 DE. This has nothing to do with his IR year.

Ok, so you are taking out his 17 sack season.


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Northman
03-06-2013, 05:38 PM
It's what we all do best. This place would burn down if we didnt argue over stupid shit

Yes, but i would have less headaches if you dillweeds just agreed with me. :D

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 05:38 PM
My wife rolls her eyes and inevitably starts the "I wish you paid attention to me that way" conversation. So I try not to bother with it too much after work.

I understand completely. I learned pretty quickly to put the laptop away when we are together.

Northman
03-06-2013, 05:41 PM
I understand completely. I learned pretty quickly to put the laptop away when we are together.

I think maybe Missy either knows im addicted or is enabling me. When im down in the man cave she says "come upstairs, you can use the laptop".

CoachChaz
03-06-2013, 05:42 PM
Yes and no. I'm saying that your example of paying Manning as a RB is absurd. If you want to ask me what's more important, 20 passing TDs or 20 rushing TDs, then we can talk the comparisons in pay from those two positions.

But seriously coach, I'm not BTB here, I actually know football. Your point that the 34 DE is worldly different in play isn't the point. We all know that Doom was a liability against the run in the 34, and a strength RUSHING against the pass (and not in coverage).

In both defenses, his "job", was to get to the passer. His "duty" was to put pressure on the QB. There is NOT a "worldly" difference in positions when it comes to pass rushing situations. To try and distinquish the difference of him doing that job between the 43 and the 34 is cutting hairs. If you don't realize that his sacks, while in the 34, was with his hand in the dirt, then you weren't really paying attention.

The differences are much bigger than you give them credit for. Ok...so his hand was in the dirt, but OL blocking schemes are much different against a 3-4...as are the rushing schemes. There are far less double teams and trap blocks against a 3-4 joker. At the end of the day, the difference in Doom's production as a 3-4 joker and as a 4-3 end prove all of this.

I guess we can watch and see what happens to Ware's production in Dallas as he transitions from a 3-4 joker to a 4-3 end. That would probably be the best comparison.

NightTerror218
03-06-2013, 05:54 PM
All this talk about Elvis helping Miller...but what about looking at it the other way? Doesnt Miller do his fair share to help Doom? It works both ways. but again, I'm not saying Doom sucks. I'm jujst saying his contract isnt justified for a 10 sack DE. if we can find another guy to get 8-10 for less and it let's us add someone to the interior rush, then I'm all for it. In a perfect world, Doom has a lower salary and we have options while keeping him on the roster.

how is his contract compared to Mathew, Ware, Allen, JPP, Peppers? i do think he should reconstruct so that Miller can get a pay day when its his due.

GEM
03-06-2013, 06:19 PM
Like I've always said.....Doom has 4 inches in height and reach and we'd be talking elite. Right now he is limited because tackles get their hands under his chin and hold him in place. Restructure and call it a day.


DON'T cut him and bring in a Freeney. That's the old Shanahan band aid.

Mike
03-06-2013, 06:41 PM
Like I've always said.....Doom has 4 inches in height and reach and we'd be talking elite. Right now he is limited because tackles get their hands under his chin and hold him in place. Restructure and call it a day.


DON'T cut him and bring in a Freeney. That's the old Shanahan band aid.

I would expect the Broncos are not going to cut him. Maybe sending messages to get him to restructure?

DenBronx
03-06-2013, 07:27 PM
I would expect the Broncos are not going to cut him. Maybe sending messages to get him to restructure?

Thats all it is and even Elvis knows it. Just a business move/restructure.

I am more concerned about keeping our own guys then bringing in scrubs to patch holes.

tomjonesrocks
03-06-2013, 07:35 PM
Starting to look like 2005 all over again. Missed opportunity, and done.

Giving up defensive stars doesn't win championships.

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 07:37 PM
Starting to look like 2005 all over again. Missed opportunity, and done.

Um, wut? We didn't have an elite QB in 05. Your window is always open when you have an elite QB.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 08:41 PM
Um, wut? We didn't have an elite QB in 05. Your window is always open when you have an elite QB.

Very true, but the elite quarterback we're talking about at this time is a season or two away from the end of his career...so the window is relatively small.

Just saying...

BroncoWave
03-06-2013, 08:56 PM
Very true, but the elite quarterback we're talking about at this time is a season or two away from the end of his career...so the window is relatively small.

Just saying...

It still doesn't compare to 05 at all.

Lancane
03-06-2013, 09:02 PM
It still doesn't compare to 05 at all.

Yeah, I wouldn't compare our run in 05' with Plummer to this past season with Manning...but as I stated earlier, the screw ups of the organization remain fresh in the minds of the fans, making us weary when the Front Office starts to look as though they may get rid of a productive player.

Denver Native (Carol)
03-06-2013, 09:04 PM
From Klis' updated article:


To be clear, the Broncos are not asking to restructure Dumervil's contract, according to the league sources. Restructures are for salary cap purposes and usually mean no change in cash value to the player. The Broncos are seeking a pay cut from Dumervil.

While there are other Broncos whose relatively hefty salaries may be addressed before the season, there is a sense of urgency to Dumervil's renegotiation because his $12 million salary becomes fully guaranteed on the fifth day of the league year. The new league year opens for business on March 12, with the expectation the Broncos will be active in free agency.

The team also needs money to reach a long-term contract extension with left tackle Ryan Clady, who received a $9.83 million franchise tag last week.

It's not known how much the Broncos want to cut Dumervil's salary. He is not expected to be receptive to a significant slash considering the franchise tag on defensive ends this year was $11.175 million — only $825,000 less than what Dumervil is scheduled to make this season.

If the Broncos and Dumervil cannot come to terms, then a pass rusher likely would be added to the team's position of needs this offseason.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22731103/broncos-want-cut-elvis-dumervil-salary-denver

Krugan
03-07-2013, 09:27 AM
Will the nightmare that was junior hoody ever end?

Its every time I turn around the Mchoody issues still crop up.

This issue is one I personally hope gets handled and quick. Keeping the working pieces in place is far to important.

CoachChaz
03-07-2013, 09:49 AM
I wonder if Falcons fans are going this crazy over Atlanta cutting Abraham

Mike
03-07-2013, 09:56 AM
I wonder if Falcons fans are going this crazy over Atlanta cutting Abraham

Abraham is more like the Freeney move than this with Doom, I think.

CoachChaz
03-07-2013, 09:59 AM
Abraham is more like the Freeney move than this with Doom, I think.

Considering Abraham at his age produced at least as much as Doom and Freeney, I'd have to disagree.

Northman
03-07-2013, 10:23 AM
I wonder if Falcons fans are going this crazy over Atlanta cutting Abraham

Im sure there are more than a few who are less than pleased. Why it is people think only Bronco fans get upset or bummed about shit like this is beyond me.

Dapper Dan
03-07-2013, 10:28 AM
Dang. Looks like I missed a lot here.

Northman
03-07-2013, 10:38 AM
Not really.

Doom is still a Bronco and we have no idea what his status is with the restructuring.

CoachChaz
03-07-2013, 10:49 AM
Im sure there are more than a few who are less than pleased. Why it is people think only Bronco fans get upset or bummed about shit like this is beyond me.

I dont recall saying I thought that

Dzone
03-07-2013, 10:54 AM
Dumervil is gone. He left a note on his locker that said "Who is John Galt?"

Denver Native (Carol)
03-07-2013, 03:28 PM
recent article - from article:


The team wants him to take a cut or restructure his contract, according to a person familiar with the situation, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because details of the negotiations were not public.

full article - http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9028280/denver-broncos-ask-elvis-dumervil-take-pay-cut-according-report

DenBronx
03-07-2013, 03:48 PM
Not really.

Doom is still a Bronco and we have no idea what his status is with the restructuring.

He actually hasnt said anything about it on his FB account. Don't think he or John Elway are worried about it at all. The media puts up a story of what could happen and all the fans go apeshit.

DenBronx
03-07-2013, 03:50 PM
Dumervil is gone. He left a note on his locker that said "Who is John Galt?"

He's been crying and pouting about it all offseason.

2442

silkamilkamonico
03-07-2013, 05:47 PM
$43 mill guaranteed? For that guy? Cut him and don't give it a second thought. Unless he restructures and takes a pay cut. A significant one.

Nomad
03-07-2013, 07:00 PM
It would take the 'D' out of WMD......WM doesn't sound as intimidating:lol:

ShaneFalco
03-07-2013, 07:08 PM
i think it kinda sucks to start replacing bronco players over and over with former colts. Freeney is not dumervil

BroncoWave
03-07-2013, 07:10 PM
i think it kinda sucks to start replacing bronco players over and over with former colts. Freeney is not dumervil

You act like we've already replaced Doom with Freeny. You realize this probably isn't going to happen right?

Traveler
03-14-2013, 01:21 PM
He's been crying and pouting about it all offseason.

2442

Anyone else find this photo strange/suspect?

BeefStew25
03-14-2013, 01:31 PM
Anyone else find this photo strange/suspect?

No. I wish the other guy had his shirt off also.