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Denver Native (Carol)
02-22-2013, 11:16 AM
INDIANAPOLIS ó Broncos running back Knowshon Moreno has had arthroscopic surgery on his right knee since the end of the season. Broncos coach John Fox confirmed the surgery when asked Thursday morning at the NFLís scouting combine.

Moreno underwent a treatment to insert stem cells harvested from bone marrow in his pelvis into his right knee. It is the same knee Moreno tore the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) to end his 2011 season.

rest - http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/02/21/broncos-moreno-had-knee-surgery-following-season/18540/

ShaneFalco
02-22-2013, 03:42 PM
jeez. i love moreno and his ability, but he came in halfway thru the season and still got hurt...

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 03:44 PM
There is nothing you can do to prevent a knee injury. Just takes getting hit at a weird angle once. Shit happens.

Mike
02-22-2013, 04:36 PM
Being made of glass doesn't help any.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 04:39 PM
Being made of glass doesn't help any.

Football players get hurt. This whole "made out of glass" thing is such a load of BS. Some just have worse luck with injuries than others. People see a Brett Favre or Peyton Manning and expect all players to be like that but that's just not how it works.

Mike
02-22-2013, 04:41 PM
Football players get hurt. This whole "made out of glass" thing is such a load of BS. Some just have worse luck with injuries than others. People see a Brett Favre or Peyton Manning and expect all players to be like that but that's just not how it works.

Doesn't change anything. Rationalize it all you want but the proof is in the pudding. He is unreliable.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 04:43 PM
Doesn't change anything. Rationalize it all you want but the proof is in the pudding. He is unreliable.

Terrell Davis must have had a glass vag too. He couldn't even make it 5 years into his career without injuries killing his career.

Mike
02-22-2013, 04:46 PM
Terrell Davis must have had a glass vag too. He couldn't even make it 5 years into his career without injuries killing his career.

Logic not even once.

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 04:48 PM
BTB likes to argue for the sake of arguing.

The TD statement is probably the dumbest thing I've read on these boards.

And that's saying a lot.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 04:49 PM
Logic not even once.

Funny how we rationalize things different based on how much we like a player. Davis had 3 pretty serious knee/leg injuries late in his career. If Moreno is made of glass so is TD.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 04:50 PM
BTB likes to argue for the sake of arguing.

The TD statement is probably the dumbest thing I've read on these boards.

And that's saying a lot.

Obviously Davis is a much better and more accomplished player than Moreno will ever dream of being, but they have both had a pretty equal amount of knee injuries/games missed in their careers.

People don't like Moreno so they say he has a glass vag. But people love TD so they'd never dare speak such blasphemy.

CoachChaz
02-22-2013, 04:54 PM
Not really defending him per se, but let's not forget he was getting beat on regularly in practice when he was on the practice squad. It's not like he sat around just working out for the first 8 weeks. He was essentially a human punching bag for the defense.

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 05:29 PM
Obviously Davis is a much better and more accomplished player than Moreno will ever dream of being, but they have both had a pretty equal amount of knee injuries/games missed in their careers.

People don't like Moreno so they say he has a glass vag. But people love TD so they'd never dare speak such blasphemy.

That's not the same thing. Moreno has missed time from day one of him being a Bronco. He's ALWAYS hurt. To say that he and TD are the same because TD had a horrific injury, is pretty ridiculous, and its an intentional exaggeration because you are desperately trying SOOO hard to make a viable defense. But its failing miserably.

Moreno wasn't showing that he could grind out 1700 -2000 yrd seasons...going through playoffs and super bowls...BEFORE finally succumbing to a career ending injury.

Moreno has not been able to finish ONE single season, not one, without injury. That is what you are comparing to TD? That is what you are comparing to ANY RB that can be considered reliable??

You say some just have "worse luck than others"...absolutely true. It's also true that some players...people..... are just more injury PRONE because their bodies.. joints...ligaments... aren't as tough/flexible/durable as others. Moreno is NOT durable. His body is not as tough as HE would like it to be, and certainly not as tough as the fans want it to be.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:31 PM
That's not the same thing. Moreno has missed time from day one of him being a Bronco. He's ALWAYS hurt. To say that he and TD are the same because TD had a horrific injury, is pretty ridiculous, and its an intentional exaggeration because you are desperately trying SOOO hard to make a viable defense. But its failing miserably.

Moreno wasn't showing that he could grind out 1700 -2000 yrd seasons...going through playoffs and super bowls...BEFORE finally succumbing to a career ending injury.

Moreno has not been able to finish ONE single season, not one, without injury. That is what you are comparing to TD? That is what you are comparing to ANY RB that can be considered reliable??

You say some just have "worse luck than others"...absolutely true. It's also true that some players...people..... are just more injury PRONE because their bodies.. joints...ligaments... aren't as tough/flexible/durable as others. Moreno is NOT durable. His body is not as tough as HE would like it to be, and certainly not as tough as the fans want it to be.

Moreno played in all 16 games as a rookie and only missed 3 games in his second year. 2011 was the only season in which he missed extended time due to injury. Try to get your facts straight next time.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-22-2013, 05:39 PM
I hope Moreno comes back and plays well for the Broncos.

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 05:39 PM
Moreno played in all 16 games as a rookie and only missed 3 games in his second year. 2011 was the only season in which he missed extended time due to injury. Try to get your facts straight next time.

yes yes.. after missing most of training camp with injury. I have my facts straight http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15952490 ... http://voices.yahoo.com/knowshon-moreno-injury-could-another-tough-blow-4070409.html

NOT ONE YEAR has he gone without injury. Which is what I said. "Missed ONLY 3 games in 2010"... that's an INJURY. Try to argue after actually READING what people state.. and try.. just try.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:40 PM
yes yes.. after missing most of training camp with injury. I have my facts straight http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15952490 ... http://voices.yahoo.com/knowshon-moreno-injury-could-another-tough-blow-4070409.html

NOT ONE YEAR has he gone without injury.

Oh noes he missed training camp! What a weak, feeble player. I would say it speaks volumes to his toughness that he missed most of camp and managed to play in all 16 games that season.

CoachChaz
02-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Bitch about it all we want, but until there is a better option in the stable (draft/FA) it doesnt make sende to cut him

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Oh noes he missed training camp! What a weak, feeble player. I would say it speaks volumes to his toughness that he missed most of camp and managed to play in all 16 games that season.

REALLY?? you want to speak VOLUMES about Moreno's TOUGHNESS!?!? :lol: Now THAT is rich.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:42 PM
REALLY?? you want to speak VOLUMES about Moreno's TOUGHNESS!?!? :lol: Now THAT is rich.

He played all 16 games that season. What more could you ask from him?

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 05:44 PM
Oh noes he missed training camp! What a weak, feeble player. I would say it speaks volumes to his toughness that he missed most of camp and managed to play in all 16 games that season.

But isn't that the point, also? FIrst it's just missing training camp.. then it's missing 3 games the year after. THen its missing 9 games, and missing 8 games..... and getting hurt after only starting 6 and in the playoffs. What else needs to be said about his durability NOW? Does ot make much of a difference that he "only" missed training camp back in 2009, when its just been accumilating and getting worse ever since?

Slick
02-22-2013, 05:46 PM
Bitch about it all we want, but until there is a better option in the stable (draft/FA) it doesnt make sende to cut him

Yeah, I think he's around next year unless we sign a free agant RB.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:47 PM
But isn't that the point, also? FIrst it's just missing training camp.. then it's missing 3 games the year after. THen its missing 9 games, and missing 8 games..... and getting hurt after only starting 6 and in the playoffs. What else needs to be said about his durability NOW? Does ot make much of a difference that he "only" missed training camp back in 2009, when its just been accumilating and getting worse ever since?

Really? Getting worse? He missed zero games due to injury this past season.

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 05:47 PM
I'm a Knowshon supporter, and hope he does well. I don't want to see him cut or traded.

That said, to say he isn't prone to injury is silly.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:49 PM
I'm a Knowshon supporter, and hope he does well. I don't want to see him cut or traded.

That said, to say he isn't prone to injury is silly.

To use it as a criticism is silly. He's only really had one major injury in his career that caused him to miss significant time. Yeah he's gotten knicked up here and there, but for the most part he's played through ti.

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 05:50 PM
He's been hurt every year, BTB. Three of four years, injuries have caused him to miss at least one game.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:52 PM
He's been hurt every year, BTB. Three of four years, injuries have caused him to miss at least one game.

The majority of players in the NFL get hurt every season, to varying degrees. I really fail to see your point.

And you're incorrect. He did not miss any games due to injury as a rookie or this past season.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 05:56 PM
John Elway only played all 16 games of the season in 7 of his 16 seasons. Was he injury prone too?

Before I get jumped on for ripping on John Elway, I'm not at all. Just making a point that it's more common than not that players will sustain multiple injuries and miss games throughout their careers.

Even several current broncos have missed multiple games in multiple seasons, but I hardly hear any of them take as much flak for being injury prone as I do Moreno.

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 05:58 PM
Really? Getting worse? He missed zero games due to injury this past season.

Dude... that's not accurate at all. He was injured after only starting 6. He missed 1/2 the 7th. Its easy to NOT be injured when your butt is on the bench.

So, that is your defense for him not having injury problems? He's not injured when sitting on the bench? Ok, I concede, you are right, Knowshon has proved that he is able to not get hurt, over an extended period, while NOT playing. I stand corrected.

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 05:59 PM
The majority of players in the NFL get hurt every season, to varying degrees. I really fail to see your point.

And you're incorrect. He did not miss any games due to injury as a rookie or this past season.

You're an expert skirting the whole truth to fit your argument. He missed 1/2 a game in the post season - arguably the most important game of the season, he left with an injury.

People have an opinion, BTB. Take it or leave it.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 06:00 PM
You're an expert skirting the whole truth to fit your argument. He missed 1/2 a game in the post season - arguably the most important game of the season, he left with an injury.

People have an opinion, BTB. Take it or leave it.

Am I not allowed to refute those opinions?

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 06:02 PM
John Elway only played all 16 games of the season in 7 of his 16 seasons. Was he injury prone too?

Before I get jumped on for ripping on John Elway, I'm not at all. Just making a point that it's more common than not that players will sustain multiple injuries and miss games throughout their careers.

Even several current broncos have missed multiple games in multiple seasons, but I hardly hear any of them take as much flak for being injury prone as I do Moreno.

Elway played his entire career without an ACL. Later in his career, his bicep muscle became detached and he continued playing.

Fail.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 06:04 PM
Elway played his entire career without an ACL. Later in his career, his bicep muscle became detached and he continued playing.

Fail.

Yep, you missed my point just like I expected. I never said he wasn't tough. I simply said that he sustained multiple injuries, and missed games due to them in 9 of his 16 seasons. It's no knock on him, it's simply a fact that applies to most NFL players. They get injured and miss games frequently.

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 06:07 PM
Yep, you missed my point just like I expected. I never said he wasn't tough. I simply said that he sustained multiple injuries, and missed games due to them in 9 of his 16 seasons. It's no knock on him, it's simply a fact that applies to most NFL players. They get injured and miss games frequently.

Right.. and when you are good, people over look the game here and game there, injury. But when you aren't good, coaches/GMs/fans don't over look the inability to stay healthy. Thats just a fact of life. Moreno has not shown the level of skill for one to overlook his inability to stay on the field. If he's not dynamic when he plays, and then misses time, what is he? He's a liability at that point.

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 06:07 PM
Yep, you missed my point just like I expected. I never said he wasn't tough. I simply said that he sustained multiple injuries, and missed games due to them in 9 of his 16 seasons. It's no knock on him, it's simply a fact that applies to most NFL players. They get injured and miss games frequently.

Useless.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 06:12 PM
Right.. and when you are good, people over look the game here and game there, injury. But when you aren't good, coaches/GMs/fans don't over look the inability to stay healthy. Thats just a fact of life. Moreno has not shown the level of skill for one to overlook his inability to stay on the field. If he's not dynamic when he plays, and then misses time, what is he? He's a liability at that point.

My point, which is continually being ignored, is that players of all skill levels miss games due to injury all the time in the NFL. Moreno hasn't missed THAT many games due to injury in his career. Certainly not enough to get slammed as much as he does for being injury prone.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 06:12 PM
Useless.

You're right, this response was pretty useless. If that's the best you've got perhaps you should stop posting in this thread.

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 06:14 PM
You're right, this response was pretty useless. If that's the best you've got perhaps you should stop posting in this thread.

Having a discussion with you is like having one with a teenage girl.

You insist on everyone hearing your point of view, but completely ignore anyone elses.

You win, BTB. Enjoy.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 06:17 PM
Having a discussion with you is like having one with a teenage girl.

You insist on everyone hearing your point of view, but completely ignore anyone elses.

You win, BTB. Enjoy.

Ah, the person resorting to personal attacks is calling me a teenage girl. Gotta love it! :lol:

BroncoJoe
02-22-2013, 06:28 PM
Ah, the person resorting to personal attacks is calling me a teenage girl. Gotta love it! :lol:

HUGE personal attack.

Report the post.

BroncoWave
02-22-2013, 06:29 PM
HUGE personal attack.

Report the post.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not offended. I'm just appreciating the irony of you calling me a teenage girl when you are acting the same way. :lol:

Northman
02-22-2013, 06:50 PM
Joe's not wrong though. Thats the beauty of it all.

Ravage!!!
02-22-2013, 07:29 PM
My point, which is continually being ignored, is that players of all skill levels miss games due to injury all the time in the NFL. Moreno hasn't missed THAT many games due to injury in his career. Certainly not enough to get slammed as much as he does for being injury prone.

That's not being ignored, and I steered my answer in direct response to this nonsense. He missed his VERY FIRST training camp due to injury. He then missed 3 games in just his sophmore year, then missed 9 in his junior year, and was injured after being in just SIX games of his 4th season. You say he "hasn't missed many".. while completely ignoring the fact that the ONLY reason he wasn't hurt this year was because he was replaced for OTHER reasons.

So for whatever the case YOU wish to believe, or simply wish to ignore, depending on how you want to twist it.....out of the 64 possible regular season games he could have started.... he's started just 30.

Now before you make some ridiculous "but those are just starting games"... of the 64, regular season games, that he could have PLAYED in, he's played in just 44. Thats 20 missed games (not counting playoffs)..in the last 3 years (since he didn't miss any in year one). That's nearly 7 games a season over the last 3 years. If you want to count season 1, then that still averages out to missing 5 games a year... nearly 33% of the season.

I'm sure you are going to say "but he wasn't hurt in 2012." However, the easy reply to that would be "Only because he wasn't getting hit while on the bench." When he was getting hit, he lasted 6.5 games. Had that been from the start of the season, he could have just as easily missed another 9.5 games due to injury.

To say that his "injury prone" criticisms are "not enough to get slammed"...... is almost making a point of looking away, blindly, intentionally.

Slick
02-22-2013, 09:39 PM
Fair or not, I still think Knowshon is held to a higher standard for being the #12 pick in the draft. For me personally he is.

If you take a RB that high, he should be a bell cow, a stud RB, and I don't think he's ever been that. I'll freely admit that I am harsh with criticisms where he is concerned.

Building on what Joe said, where was he last year when we needed him the most? Pretty disappointing to be on the bench, watching his teammates piss away a playoof victory.

I do think he tries hard, and his injuries have been legit.

TXBRONC
02-22-2013, 11:43 PM
Joe's not wrong though. Thats the beauty of it all.

I have two teenage girls at home I can actually reason with them even when have a difference of opinion. BTB not so much because he knows it all just ask him.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:00 AM
Fair or not, I still think Knowshon is held to a higher standard for being the #12 pick in the draft. For me personally he is.

If you take a RB that high, he should be a bell cow, a stud RB, and I don't think he's ever been that. I'll freely admit that I am harsh with criticisms where he is concerned.

Building on what Joe said, where was he last year when we needed him the most? Pretty disappointing to be on the bench, watching his teammates piss away a playoof victory.

I do think he tries hard, and his injuries have been legit.

There are some people who think draft status doesn't matter reality in the NFL is that it does. More is expect out of any player taken that high in the draft.

I'm not in any position to question the legitimacy of any of the injuries Moreno has had since he was drafted. BTB can claim all day long that Moreno made every start his rookie season IIRC he didn't finish every game.

Anyway, I don't see him getting cut because of what he did after he was re-activated.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:01 AM
There are some people who think draft status doesn't matter reality in the NFL is that it does. More is expect out of any player taken that high in the draft.

I'm not in any position to question the legitimacy of any of the injuries Moreno has had since he was drafted. BTB can claim all day long that Moreno made every start his rookie season IIRC he didn't finish every game.

Anyway, I don't see him getting cut because of what he did after he was re-activated.

Draft position isn't as important as some people want it to be.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:06 AM
Draft position isn't as important as some people want it to be.

Yes it is. Players get cut all the time because they haven't lived up to their draft status.

Do you remember Mike Croel? He didn't live up to his draft status did Denver keep him around? Nope.

Or here's an oldie but goodie Tommy Maddox. Did he live up to his draft status? The last time I checked he didn't and he ended up cut.

You claim until the cows come home that draft status doesn't matter but reality can be a bitch because it does matter.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:07 AM
Reality is if Denver could get 1200 yards and six touchdowns out of Moreno for $3 million that's a bargain.

(That's his 16 game average)

So, again, draft position means so very little.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:08 AM
Yes it is. Players get cut all the time because they haven't lived up to their draft status.

They get cut because of their cap figure based on their numbers, not their draft status.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:13 AM
Reality is if Denver could get 1200 yards and six touchdowns out of Moreno for $3 million that's a bargain.

(That's his 16 game average)

So, again, draft position means so very little.

No reality is Moreno hasn't done that in any single season has he?

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:15 AM
No reality is Moreno hasn't done that in any single season has he?

His first two seasons, yes.

1150 yards, 8.5 touchdowns.

His 16 game average is right at 1200 yards and six touchdowns. For $3 million on the cap, that's a bargain.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:17 AM
They get cut because of their cap figure based on their numbers, not their draft status.

Ah no they get cut because they're very good ie they don't live up to their draft position. I guess you're not aware of the fact that both Maddox and Croel were drafted and cut in Denver before the advent of the cap.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:18 AM
Ah no they get cut because they're very good ie they don't live up to their draft position. I guess you're not aware of the fact that both Maddox and Croel were drafted and cut in Denver before the advent of the cap.

Those are your examples? Guys from 20 years ago?

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:27 AM
His first two seasons, yes.

1150 yards, 8.5 touchdowns.

His 16 game average is right at 1200 yards and six touchdowns. For $3 million on the cap, that's a bargain.

It's obvious you can't actually answer the question. I said any single season not combined season but individual seasons.

If you want to play that stupid game that means in a single season he's only average 575 yards and 4.25 touchdowns. That's not a bargin it's called getting ripped off.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:30 AM
It's obvious you can't actually answer the question. I said any single season not combined season but individual seasons.

If you want to play that stupid game that means in a single season he's only average 575 yards and 4.25 touchdowns. That's not a bargin it's called getting ripped off.

What stupid game?

The game where we project the players' ability versus his salary for next year. That's the only "game" we're playing. Not where he was drafted. Not what you wanted him to be. But what the Broncos believe he could do in a full season.

For a $3 million cap hit, you'd be surprised what's acceptable.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:33 AM
The Panthers paid $8.2 million for 940 yards and 7 touchdowns last year.

That's the guy everyone wants - DeAngelo Williams.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:35 AM
Fred Jackson, $3.7 million.

654 yards, four touchdowns.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:37 AM
Jonathan Stewart.

$3 million, 493 yards, two touchdowns.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:38 AM
Those are your examples? Guys from 20 years ago?


You're grasping at straws. It proves the point. It matters not if it was 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago they got cut because they didn't live up to their draft status. You want more? Marcus Nash, Ashley Lelie, and George Foster didn't live up to their draft status and they all let go. The circumstances were different for each but the bottom line is they didn't live up to their draft status and were let go.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:40 AM
Basically, the only guy with a $3 million cap hit in 2013 who had better numbers than Moreno in 2012 is Benjarvus Green-Ellis, who is apparently a very good bargain for the Bengals.

And Moreno only played in six games.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:41 AM
Jonathan Stewart.

$3 million, 493 yards, two touchdowns.

Poor example. Whose the quarterback of the Panthers and just what kind of offense are they running? Cam Newton doesn't like to handle the ball off very much does he?

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:42 AM
You're grasping at straws. It proves the point. It matters not if it was 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago they got cut because they didn't live up to their draft status. You want more? Marcus Nash, Ashley Lelie, and George Foster didn't live up to their draft status and they all let go. The circumstances were different for each but the bottom line is they didn't live up to their draft status and were let go.

What do running backs taken at No. 12 do?

I want solid figures.

I'm not dodging anything or grasping at any straws. I'm showing you salary figures and performances, hard solid numbers showing you that $3.2 million isn't outrageous for Moreno's output, and the only thing you've got is draft picks "who didn't live up to standards" (whatever that means) 20 years ago...

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:42 AM
Poor example. Whose the quarterback of the Panthers and just what kind of offense are they running? Cam Newton doesn't like to handle the ball off very much does he?

Nope. It's not a poor example.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:44 AM
The Panthers paid $8.2 million for 940 yards and 7 touchdowns last year.

That's the guy everyone wants - DeAngelo Williams.

Same starting quarterback is in front of Williams as Stewart. I might be going out on limb here but I think they run same offense regardles of which back is in.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:45 AM
Same starting quarterback is in front of Williams as Stewart. I might be going out on limb here but I think they run same offense regardles of which back is in.

Fred Jackson? Got excuses for him too?

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 12:45 AM
Nope. It's not a poor example.

Yeah it because you can't even acknowledge who the starting quarterback of the Panthers is and how they run their offense. You don't anything close to solid argument so you're grasping at staws. I understand.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:48 AM
It is, you just don't have the ability to admit you're wrong.

I'm showing you salary figures, and performance. And I'm telling you $3.2 million isn't outrageous of a salary for Moreno.

Can you refute that?

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 12:50 AM
Yeah it because you can't even acknowledge who the starting quarterback of the Panthers is and how they run their offense. You don't anything close to solid argument so you're grasping at staws. I understand.

Bad argument.

Cam Newton is the quarterback. Quarterback acknowledged.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 01:01 AM
Fred Jackson? Got excuses for him too?

You mean the same Fred Jackson who went undrafted who actually went undrafted, but still knows what it's like to gain 1000 yards in single season?

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 01:08 AM
You mean the same Fred Jackson who went undrafted who actually went undrafted, but still knows what it's like to gain 1000 yards in single season?

Man...you've got to quit fixating on draft position...

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 01:10 AM
Bad argument.

Cam Newton is the quarterback. Quarterback acknowledged.

No. How much does he run the ball? How about 126 times in his rookie season and 127 time this past season and you want tell I have bad argument? That's funny MO.

Anyway lets get back on topic. The rumor about Moreno being cut doesn't have much credibiity. At this point I don't see him getting cut. He was solid when he stepped in but he's no world beater. So if he actually does get cut it wont shock me.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 01:15 AM
Among running backs under contract for 2013, Moreno is 20th in cap hit.

That doesn't take into account guys who are likely to sign contracts that will exceed a $3.2 million cap hit in 2013, such as Reggie Bush, Shonn Greene, Felix Jones, Rashard Mendenhall. There are a few others.

So, conservatively, Moreno is 25th, maybe lower, in cap hit for running backs in the entire league for 2013.

Moreno was 63rd in total yards, in just five games.

If he had played in 16 games, he would have been, conservatively somewhere around No. 20 in total yards.

Sounds like his salary is justified. Time to stop focusing on where people are drafted.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 01:15 AM
No. How much does he run the ball? How about 126 times in his rookie season and 127 time this past season and you want tell I have bad argument? That's funny MO.

Anyway lets get back on topic. The rumor about Moreno being cut doesn't have much credibiity. At this point I don't see him getting cut. He was solid when he stepped in but he's no world beater. So if he actually does get cut it wont shock me.

Yes. Because his salary is in line with production.

And no one gives a shit where he was drafted four years ago.

TXBRONC
02-23-2013, 01:25 AM
Yes. Because his salary is in line with production.

And no one gives a shit where he was drafted four years ago.

Apparently you've never heard of the concept of expectation. You're sadly mistaken that no one gives a shit draft status. That why a lot players get cut because they don't live up what's expected of them and that is tied to draft status. That's reality.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 01:35 AM
Apparently you've never heard of the concept of expectation. You're sadly mistaken that no one gives a shit draft status. That why a lot players get cut because they don't live up what's expected of them and that is tied to draft status. That's reality.

Who?

Your examples, thus far, are guys from 20 years ago. The game has changed.

Now, it's about salary vs. production, and I've shown you Moreno is right in line with that. And therefore not a problem.

But you're just fixated on draft position four years ago without discussing anything relevant to now.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 01:39 AM
You also haven't addressed what the "expectation" is.

Jaded
02-23-2013, 02:00 AM
All this bickering over a backup RB.......

Mike
02-23-2013, 09:18 AM
Basically, the only guy with a $3 million cap hit in 2013 who had better numbers than Moreno in 2012 is Benjarvus Green-Ellis, who is apparently a very good bargain for the Bengals.

And Moreno only played in six games.

My issue isn't with his talent, heart, or production. I like the kid. But he gets hurt and cannot be counted on. It sucks, but it is also fact.

I won't be surprised to see him gone. I would much rather have him stay than Ball though.

MOtorboat
02-23-2013, 10:03 AM
My issue isn't with his talent, heart, or production. I like the kid. But he gets hurt and cannot be counted on. It sucks, but it is also fact.

I won't be surprised to see him gone. I would much rather have him stay than Ball though.

I don't know why he was benched, but it was not for injury.

Ravage!!!
02-23-2013, 11:12 AM
I don't know why he was benched, but it was not for injury.

Yet, was injured... again... after playing in only 6 games. In the most important game of the season. So it again points out Mike's point, in that he can't be relied upon because of his injury problems.

BroncoWave
02-23-2013, 05:17 PM
Joe's not wrong though. Thats the beauty of it all.

I have two teenage girls at home I can actually reason with them even when have a difference of opinion. BTB not so much because he knows it all just ask him.

It's pretty funny really. All I've talked about in this thread is Moreno and all some of you can do is personally attack me. Just because you're wrong in this discussion doesn't mean you have to resort to personal attacks.

Northman
02-23-2013, 09:02 PM
It's pretty funny really. All I've talked about in this thread is Moreno and all some of you can do is personally attack me. Just because you're wrong in this discussion doesn't mean you have to resort to personal attacks.

Too bad we arent wrong though. But carry on with your pity party, its comical.

cmc0605
02-23-2013, 09:36 PM
Actually BaileytheBest is the only one who has actually thought about this logically. The problem is fans have very short memories. Thomas was made of glass too until he stayed healthy and played at a pro bowl level-- no one talks about him being injury-prone anymore. Moreno had to leave a game early, so what? Believe it or not, your body actually doesn't care whether the game you're in is a regular season or playoff game; if you get hit the wrong way or twist an ankle or land funny then you might be unavailable the next 60 minutes of physical contact. It was unfortunate that this all happened to occur during a playoff game, but last I checked, there's no such thing as having or not having "clutch bodies" in big games. The fact is that every time Moreno was on the field, he played at a very high level...maybe even a pro bowl level if you extrapolate his performance over an entire season. Everyone started to love Moreno during his streak. And he actually hasn't missed much time due to injury from a career perspective.

The other fact is that Moreno is better than all or almost anyone Denver could reasonably field next season

Northman
02-23-2013, 10:26 PM
The problem is fans have very short memories.

Clearly this does apply to you.


The fact is that every time Moreno was on the field, he played at a very high level..

This is completely and utterly false.

Fail.

SR
02-23-2013, 10:28 PM
This is completely and utterly false.

Fail.

No it's not

Northman
02-23-2013, 10:33 PM
No it's not

Yes it is. Shall i pull up some of his games throughout his career and show you?

cmc0605
02-23-2013, 10:47 PM
Clearly this does apply to you.



This is completely and utterly false.

Fail.

At least this year he was very good in all the games since McGahee went down, and in previous years was averaging 4-5 yards per carry and was a receiving threat, which I'd label as productive.

But because he didn't turn into Adrian Peterson, this anti-Moreno religion formed, whose members hold onto this notion of him being an injury-prone, nonproductive bust. It became a positive feedback loop when every zero-yard carry turned into two pages of attempted game-thread comedy on how bad he is. So it stuck in the minds of people. How to get it un-stuck is apparently a problem for a psychologist and not for Moreno.

It was at least a defensible faith when McGahee played a bit better last year after teams put 11 guys and the waterboys up on the line of scrimmage to contain the "Tebow attack." It made a bit of sense because McGahee is a better inside bruiser back. But Moreno has established himself as a legitimate starter, particularly now that we have a decent o-line and a threat to pass. Any notion otherwise is just wrong...there's not even any more room to put further nails in that coffin. And yet somehow the faith perseveres just like the intellectually bankrupt notions of a flat Earth or one that is 6,000 years old.

Moreno paid his dues when he got benched half a season for fumbling once. McGahee was always good but the coaching staff was demonstrably incorrect in their assessment of Moreno's on-field capabilities, and I suspect they realize that now. I also suspect these rumors are baseless and any chance of him losing his job after a poor performance has sailed away. At least I hope I'm right, or I'm sure another intelligent coaching staff will give him a shot.

cmc0605
02-23-2013, 10:50 PM
Yes it is. Shall i pull up some of his games throughout his career and show you?

You actually have to watch the games, not copy and paste a column of yards and touches. This year, he was huge in every game he played in following the McGahee injury, including the then #1 Tampa Bay rush defense. I still played Moreno on my fantasy team that week, and throughout the season, and he still helped me win the championship. But stats aside, he made all the runs he needed to make this year to prove the doubters wrong. They don't need to agree, but they are just going to be left behind on an outdated world view.

Northman
02-23-2013, 10:54 PM
You actually have to watch the games, not copy and paste a column of yards and touches. This year, he was huge in every game he played in following the McGahee injury, including the then #1 Tampa Bay rush defense. I still played Moreno on my fantasy team that week, and throughout the season, and he still helped me win the championship. But stats aside, he made all the runs he needed to make this year to prove the doubters wrong. They don't need to agree, but they are just going to be left behind on an outdated world view.

I did watch the games. I watched a guy who (before later this year) continually run into the back of his Olineman. As to your comment about him playing at a high level whenever he is on the field,

Nov 9th, 2009- 5 carries for 3 yds
Dec 20, 2009- 19 carries for 42 yds
Dec 27, 2009- 9 carries for 18 yds

Dec 19th, 2010- 4 carries for 5 yds
Dec 26th, 2010- 7 carries for 19 yds

Sept 12th, 2011- 8 carries for 22 yds
Oct 2nd, 2011- 2 carries for 4 yds
Oct 23rd, 2011- 7 carries for 28 yds
Nov 6th, 2011- 2 carries for 4 yds

Sept 9th, 2012- 5 carries for 13 yds
Sept 17th, 2012- 3 carries for 2 yds

Move over Adrian Peterson. lmao

Man, i dont know how Knowshon isnt in the HOF already with numbers like that.

cmc0605
02-23-2013, 11:05 PM
I can cherry-pick some of Adrian Peterson's bad career games too. Just three quick ones (Admittedly this year he was a little too good for me to do what a scientist would call fraudulent selection of data)

############# Carries, Yards, Average
12/13, 2010 14 26 1.9
1/2,20111 14 31 2.2
10/16, 2011 12 39 3.3


I can repeat this exercise for other runningbacks, and I can also pick some of Moreno's better games. I wonder if that will improve my argument? Even more comedic, half of your post isn't really a knock on Moreno, it's a knock on his lack of opportunities. I suppose Moreno called the game plan during those times when he got 2 carries, 2 carries, 5 carries, 4 carries, etc per game? Good sample size. Or 7 carries for 28 yds? That's a solid 4 per carry. This year he proved he could handle 20+ carries and be effective. Or are you going to go through the game logs now and find a time when he had 20 and didn't do very good? Be objective and watch him

Again, this is why you actually need to think about your arguments. BaileytheBeast was on -target.

SR
02-23-2013, 11:10 PM
I think CMC was referring to this season

cmc0605
02-23-2013, 11:20 PM
I think CMC was referring to this season

I was, but since you mentioned it, I think in previous years you need to consider that he never got much opportunity to run behind a solid o-line with a respectable passing attack (it's fine if people disagree). What can't be disagreed with is that he was still a consistent ~4 yard per carry guy and can make big receptions too. But faith trumps math.

The injury arguments works the other way too...there's not a huge sample size of performances, just as many people thought DT was a bust for a while. Stafford was injury-prone too, now he's a top-tier QB.

Moreno has been young too (he's 25 right now) and if you look at McGahee, he didn't have a better yards per carry season than Moreno's 2011 campaign until his fifth season. Just as McGahee lost a lot of playing time and opportunity to Rice, Moreno lost to a productive McGahee. But Moreno has grown and McGahee seems on the downside. I have said before Moreno is not a top-3 type all-pro back but he's still a threat, a legitimate starter, and pretty much the best Denver can do right now.

Jaded
02-24-2013, 12:17 AM
The other fact is that Moreno is better than all or almost anyone Denver could reasonably field next season

Ridiculous.

This is completely ignoring how easy it is to replace RB's like Moreno. McGahee is better and l'm not so sure Hillman isn't either. There is exactly nothing special about any of them, including Knowshon Moreno.......

TXBRONC
02-24-2013, 06:33 AM
No it's not

The last six games of this past yes he was very consistent pior to that he had been inconsistent.

TXBRONC
02-24-2013, 06:35 AM
It's pretty funny really. All I've talked about in this thread is Moreno and all some of you can do is personally attack me. Just because you're wrong in this discussion doesn't mean you have to resort to personal attacks.

No I haven't been wrong in this discussion and what I said concerning you is spot on.

SR
02-24-2013, 11:02 AM
The last six games of this past yes he was very consistent pior to that he had been inconsistent.

Yes

Northman
02-24-2013, 11:18 AM
I can cherry-pick some of Adrian Peterson's bad career games too. Just three quick ones (Admittedly this year he was a little too good for me to do what a scientist would call fraudulent selection of data)

############# Carries, Yards, Average
12/13, 2010 14 26 1.9
1/2,20111 14 31 2.2
10/16, 2011 12 39 3.3


I can repeat this exercise for other runningbacks, and I can also pick some of Moreno's better games. I wonder if that will improve my argument? Even more comedic, half of your post isn't really a knock on Moreno, it's a knock on his lack of opportunities. I suppose Moreno called the game plan during those times when he got 2 carries, 2 carries, 5 carries, 4 carries, etc per game? Good sample size. Or 7 carries for 28 yds? That's a solid 4 per carry. This year he proved he could handle 20+ carries and be effective. Or are you going to go through the game logs now and find a time when he had 20 and didn't do very good? Be objective and watch him

Again, this is why you actually need to think about your arguments. BaileytheBeast was on -target.


But you said he played at a high level EVERY TIME he touched the field.

Northman
02-24-2013, 11:19 AM
I think CMC was referring to this season

But thats not what he said. So now he's going to cry because he doesnt explain what he is referring too?

Northman
02-24-2013, 11:20 AM
The last six games of this past yes he was very consistent pior to that he had been inconsistent.

Clearly, according to CMC this is not a rational post TX. Fail. :lol:

SR
02-24-2013, 11:29 AM
But thats not what he said. So now he's going to cry because he doesnt explain what he is referring too?

I think we are all smart enough to know what he means...

Northman
02-24-2013, 12:18 PM
I think we are all smart enough to know what he means...


Than his argument and stance on Moreno is invalid. You dont base everything that he has done off of 6 games. Thats just silly.

Mike
02-24-2013, 12:28 PM
I think we are all smart enough to know what he means...

Do you think Moreno will make it through next season without missing games? I like the kid, but I don't have any confidence that he will make it through the season. I won't be upset if Denver keeps him, but I be upset if they don't bring in a FA and draft another. Denver's running game is entirely undependable and played a role in Denver losing to Baltimore.

SR
02-24-2013, 12:36 PM
Do you think Moreno will make it through next season without missing games? I like the kid, but I don't have any confidence that he will make it through the season. I won't be upset if Denver keeps him, but I be upset if they don't bring in a FA and draft another. Denver's running game is entirely undependable and played a role in Denver losing to Baltimore.

No, not as a full time starter, but I don't think him being a full time starter is even an option.

turftoad
02-24-2013, 12:38 PM
I don't think it's realistic to think any RB in the NFL will play every game.

MOtorboat
02-24-2013, 12:44 PM
Do you think Moreno will make it through next season without missing games? I like the kid, but I don't have any confidence that he will make it through the season. I won't be upset if Denver keeps him, but I be upset if they don't bring in a FA and draft another. Denver's running game is entirely undependable and played a role in Denver losing to Baltimore.

There were six starting running backs who started all 16 games.

That's not to suggest there aren't injury issues with Moreno, there are, but running backs take a beating and they miss games.

Mike
02-24-2013, 12:54 PM
There were six starting running backs who started all 16 games.

That's not to suggest there aren't injury issues with Moreno, there are, but running backs take a beating and they miss games.

I get that. Do you think Denver can count on Moreno when they need him...given his history? Do you feel comfortable going with the current RB situation?

SR
02-24-2013, 12:57 PM
I get that. Do you think Denver can count on Moreno when they need him...given his history? Do you feel comfortable going with the current RB situation?

As a backup, yes I do.

MOtorboat
02-24-2013, 12:58 PM
I get that. Do you think Denver can count on Denver when they need him...given his history?

I think with him under contract at a fairly small price, they should at least have him in the rotation. The question, for me, isn't Moreno, it's McGahee.

IAOFM talked today about Denver's interest in Shonn Greene to replace McGahee, not Moreno. Personally, I think that'd be a mistake, but that's more in line with what I would expect to happen.

I'd rather see a bigger running back drafted. A lot of people have talked about Montee Ball.

SR
02-24-2013, 12:59 PM
I think with him under contract at a fairly small price, they should at least have him in the rotation. The question, for me, isn't Moreno, it's McGahee.

IAOFM talked today about Denver's interest in Shonn Greene to replace McGahee, not Moreno. Personally, I think that'd be a mistake, but that's more in line with what I would expect to happen.

I'd rather see a bigger running back drafted. A lot of people have talked about Montee Ball.

I like Ball a lot.

Mike
02-24-2013, 01:03 PM
I think with him under contract at a fairly small price, they should at least have him in the rotation. The question, for me, isn't Moreno, it's McGahee.

IAOFM talked today about Denver's interest in Shonn Greene to replace McGahee, not Moreno. Personally, I think that'd be a mistake, but that's more in line with what I would expect to happen.

I'd rather see a bigger running back drafted. A lot of people have talked about Montee Ball.

I really hope they pass on Greene. He is no upgrade to what we have now. I wouldn't mind seeing Denver show interest in Ivory (N.O.), I think he is a RFA. I haven't seen any of the RBs out of the draft, so I won't speak to that.

Mike
02-24-2013, 01:03 PM
As a backup, yes I do.

How'd that work out for them this year? Problem with backups is that they may have to step up and be the starter when the starter goes down. Moreno can't take the beating.

MOtorboat
02-24-2013, 01:05 PM
I really hope they pass on Greene. He is no upgrade to what we have now. I wouldn't mind seeing Denver show interest in Ivory (N.O.), I think he is a RFA. I haven't seen any of the RBs out of the draft, so I won't speak to that.

I'm just not all that big on free agent running backs.

You're going to hear a lot of about Lacy, out of Alabama. He's probably the only running back who will be taken in the first round.

MOtorboat
02-24-2013, 01:07 PM
How'd that work out for them this year? Problem with backups is that they may have to step up and be the starter when the starter goes down. Moreno can't take the beating.

I'd say it worked out pretty good, actually. The guy ran over teams down the stretch. Yes, had had to come out of the playoff game, but that shouldn't diminish what he did do in the last six games.

SR
02-24-2013, 01:15 PM
How'd that work out for them this year? Problem with backups is that they may have to step up and be the starter when the starter goes down. Moreno can't take the beating.

It worked out great this year...

Mike
02-24-2013, 01:27 PM
It worked out great this year...

Denver most likely beats Baltimore with Moreno in. He got hurt when Denver needed him the most. Not his fault, but it is what it is. If this was his only injury then I would say tough luck, but it isn't. Given his history, any team that relies on him deserves to lose. You get what you ask for.

MOtorboat
02-24-2013, 01:33 PM
Denver most likely beats Baltimore with Moreno in. He got hurt when Denver needed him the most. Not his fault, but it is what it is. If this was his only injury then I would say tough luck, but it isn't. Given his history, any team that relies on him deserves to lose. You get what you ask for.

You must really hate McGahee then, because he didn't even show up for the game.

Mike
02-24-2013, 01:36 PM
You must really hate McGahee then, because he didn't even show up for the game.

I don't hate any player. I certainly don't hate Moreno. I just don't think he can be counted on. I also don't think McGahee can be counted on and wouldn't be surprised (or upset) to see Denver let him go.

SR
02-24-2013, 01:43 PM
Denver most likely beats Baltimore with Moreno in. He got hurt when Denver needed him the most. Not his fault, but it is what it is. If this was his only injury then I would say tough luck, but it isn't. Given his history, any team that relies on him deserves to lose. You get what you ask for.

It's not even fair to say that. Bullshit argument IMO. Denver didn't "rely" on Moreno to win. They rely on 18 to win. He was asked to step in for McGahee and he exceeded everyone's expectation. To say Denver beats Baltimore with him in the lineup is heinous.

Northman
02-24-2013, 01:53 PM
Denver most likely beats Baltimore with Moreno in. He got hurt when Denver needed him the most. Not his fault, but it is what it is. If this was his only injury then I would say tough luck, but it isn't. Given his history, any team that relies on him deserves to lose. You get what you ask for.

Exactly.

ShaneFalco
02-24-2013, 02:11 PM
Mcgahee lead league in fumbles before injury...

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 02:12 PM
No I haven't been wrong in this discussion and what I said concerning you is spot on.

How is the view from that high horse of yours? I'm sure you can show me tons of your posts where you've simply been nice enough to just concede your opinion huh?

SR
02-24-2013, 02:12 PM
Exactly.

No, not exactly.

SR
02-24-2013, 02:13 PM
Mcgahee lead league in fumbles before injury...

Not relevant.

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 02:15 PM
Denver most likely beats Baltimore with Moreno in. He got hurt when Denver needed him the most. Not his fault, but it is what it is. If this was his only injury then I would say tough luck, but it isn't. Given his history, any team that relies on him deserves to lose. You get what you ask for.

It's nauseating how ridiculous this argument is. Do you think his body cares when we "needed him most"? Injuries can happen at any point in any point in any game. Should I show you a laundry list of RBs who have been hurt in playoff games? I remember LT missing most of an AFCCG for the Chargers once. I guess you can't count on him in big games either huh?

CoachChaz
02-24-2013, 02:17 PM
If the rumor holds true and we sign Shonn Greene...none of this will matter

turftoad
02-24-2013, 02:22 PM
I hope we don't sign Greene. He'll be 28 when the season starts and is also injury prone.

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 02:23 PM
But because he didn't turn into Adrian Peterson, this anti-Moreno religion formed, whose members hold onto this notion of him being an injury-prone, nonproductive bust. It became a positive feedback loop when every zero-yard carry turned into two pages of attempted game-thread comedy on how bad he is. So it stuck in the minds of people. How to get it un-stuck is apparently a problem for a psychologist and not for Moreno.

You absolutely hit the nail on the head with this post. It's a problem you see year after year after year with our fans. Whether it be Jake Plummer, Tim Tebow, Knowshon Moreno, Robert Ayers, you name it. Once they make their mind up, for whatever reason, to put a label of "injury prone" or "bust" on a player, they will stubbornly stick to that view for the rest of that player's time in Denver, no matter how many facts or how much logic you use to prove otherwise. As I have proved pretty well in this thread, when a player people like gets hurt or underperforms, fans are always ready and willing with rationalizations or justifications for it. But the slightest slipup from a player our fans don't like, like Moreno, they use that as complete justification to validate their opinion on said player, regardless of how many facts are presented to the contrary.

Mike
02-24-2013, 02:24 PM
It's nauseating how ridiculous this argument is. Do you think his body cares when we "needed him most"? Injuries can happen at any point in any point in any game. Should I show you a laundry list of RBs who have been hurt in playoff games? I remember LT missing most of an AFCCG for the Chargers once. I guess you can't count on him in big games either huh?

Injuries can happen at any point. They just seem to happen to Moreno pretty often. Which goes to my point all along, you cannot count on Moreno. It really isn't that hard of a concept to understand.

MOtorboat
02-24-2013, 02:25 PM
I hope we don't sign Greene. He'll be 28 when the season starts and is also injury prone.

I'm not a big fan of going and getting Greene, but he is not "injury prone."

Mike
02-24-2013, 02:26 PM
I'm not a big fan of going and getting Greene, but he is not "injury prone."

Not injury prone, he just isn't very good.

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 02:28 PM
Injuries can happen at any point. They just seem to happen to Moreno pretty often. Which goes to my point all along, you cannot count on Moreno. It really isn't that hard of a concept to understand.

You realize the vast majority of NFL RBs sustain injuries almost every season right? It's by far one of the most physical positions on the field. Even Adrian Peterson has only had one season in which he started every single game, and he's had two major knee injuries since college. I guess he isn't dependable either huh?

CoachChaz
02-24-2013, 02:30 PM
Not injury prone, he just wears cement shoes

Mike
02-24-2013, 02:32 PM
You realize the vast majority of NFL RBs sustain injuries almost every season right? It's by far one of the most physical positions on the field. Even Adrian Peterson has only had one season in which he started every single game, and he's had two major knee injuries since college. I guess he isn't dependable either huh?

:sigh: There is no point in discussing anything with you. You know everything.

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 02:37 PM
:sigh: There is no point in discussing anything with you. You know everything.

I'm sorry for pointing out the flaws in your argument. If the best response you have is simply a personal attack, then it's pretty clear who is correct in this argument.

Jaded
02-24-2013, 02:55 PM
Shon Greene is not an upgrade over any RB the Broncos currently have. I might even take Ball over Greene, least we know he can contribute on ST's.......

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 02:56 PM
Here are some more stats for all to enjoy. In the last 10 seasons, a RB has started all 16 games 75 times. That's an average of 7.5 RBs who start every game per season. So pretty much 3/4 RBs on average will miss a game in a season. Seeing as Moreno has had one season out of four where he played in every game, he's pretty much right around league average.

You guys can argue until you are blue in the face that Moreno is "injury prone", but every objective stat I can find pretty much says otherwise.

SR
02-24-2013, 03:10 PM
Not injury prone, he just isn't very good.

He is also on a horrible team with a shoddy o-line

CoachChaz
02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
He is also on a horrible team with a shoddy o-line

Agreed...but he still moves like he's running in mud

SR
02-24-2013, 03:13 PM
Agreed...but he still moves like he's running in mud

Meh

CoachChaz
02-24-2013, 03:18 PM
Meh

I wouldnt mind him for the purpose of saving a draft spot for another area of need...but it depends on the cost. If we're competing with Atlanta, they have to put a cap on how high they'll go

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 03:22 PM
I wouldnt mind him for the purpose of saving a draft spot for another area of need...but it depends on the cost. If we're competing with Atlanta, they have to put a cap on how high they'll go

If we'd be bringing in Greene just to boost current depth that would be one thing, but I wouldn't really be interested in replacing Moreno or McGahee with a comparable talent since the value of already having a year of experience with Manning makes any RB we currently have more attractive than one who has the same talent level but would have to learn the system as well.

I'm not sure I worded that well, but hopefully people understand what I'm getting at.

CoachChaz
02-24-2013, 03:28 PM
But we need more depth regardless. So any back we bring in via FA or draft will have the same learning to do

BroncoWave
02-24-2013, 03:31 PM
But we need more depth regardless. So any back we bring in via FA or draft will have the same learning to do

Which, as I said, is fine if we are simply bringing them in for depth. But if we brought in Greene to outright replace Moreno or McGahee, I don't think that would be the smartest move.

SR
02-24-2013, 03:38 PM
I wouldnt mind him for the purpose of saving a draft spot for another area of need...but it depends on the cost. If we're competing with Atlanta, they have to put a cap on how high they'll go

Greene was poised for a breakout year this year but that team went south so fast he never had a chance. Him on a team with a good QB and a solid line could be the perfect recipe for success.

Jaded
02-24-2013, 05:11 PM
I'd much rather see them go after Mendenhall, pair him with McGahee, Hillman and Moreno and gamble that at least one of them is healthy every game. Chris Ivory would be even better if he wouldn't cost a draft pick.

Shonn Greene is just utterly forgettable in evey possible way. When McGahee and Moreno went down you missed them for various reasons, there's nothing you'd miss if Shonn Greene missed time.

Btw, Knile Davis tore it up at the combine.......

SR
02-24-2013, 05:59 PM
I'd much rather see them go after Mendenhall, pair him with McGahee, Hillman and Moreno and gamble that at least one of them is healthy every game. Chris Ivory would be even better if he wouldn't cost a draft pick.

Shonn Greene is just utterly forgettable in evey possible way. When McGahee and Moreno went down you missed them for various reasons, there's nothing you'd miss if Shonn Greene missed time.

Btw, Knile Davis tore it up at the combine.......

Mendenhall is a POS

Jaded
02-24-2013, 06:12 PM
Mendenhall is a POS

How do you figure? And don't give me the Bin Laden bullshit, you'd get no argument from me but I honestly couldn't care any less. I'd draft Gangnum 1st overall if he had the talent.......

SR
02-24-2013, 06:14 PM
How do you figure? And don't give me the Bin Laden bullshit, I honestly couldn't care any less.......

He's not a team guy. He's a hell of a running back when he's healthy, but after last year there are too many question marks for me to want him

Jaded
02-24-2013, 06:18 PM
He's not a team guy. He's a hell of a running back when he's healthy, but after last year there are too many question marks for me to want him

Can't argue there, but I'm not talking about a huge commitment. Bottom dollar for a committee RB.......

SR
02-24-2013, 06:20 PM
Can't argue there, but I'm not talking about a huge commitment. Bottom dollar for a committee RB.......

Wouldn't happen with Mendenhall. When he's healthy he's a top RB in the league.

Jaded
02-24-2013, 06:25 PM
Wouldn't happen with Mendenhall. When he's healthy he's a top RB in the league.

Unless Arizona is hot after him I think Mendenhall would first have to take a 1-2 year "Prove it" deal to get to his next big deal, that's where I am coming from. I could be wrong and in no way am I suggesting a huge contract for Rashard Mendenhall.......

SR
02-24-2013, 06:27 PM
Unless Arizona is hot after him I think Mendenhall would first have to take a 1-2 year "Prove it" contract to get to his next big deal, that's where I am coming from. I could be wrong and in no way am I suggesting a huge contract for Rashard Mendenhall.......

Yeah I get it, but that isn't the type of person he is. He'll want big money because he knows he's got the talent.

Jaded
02-24-2013, 06:51 PM
Yeah I get it, but that isn't the type of person he is. He'll want big money because he knows he's got the talent.

Perhaps.

The whole situation reminds me of Cedric Benson, who had the talent but teams weren't willing to pony up and give a big contract. Benson signed a one-year deal worth league minimum and then a 2-year deal worth $7 mil. I'm thinking more along the line of the latter.......

TXBRONC
02-25-2013, 07:07 AM
How is the view from that high horse of yours? I'm sure you can show me tons of your posts where you've simply been nice enough to just concede your opinion huh?


If comparing horses myview from that of shetland pony compared that clydesdale you sit on. You have no concept of how to let things go instead you look down on those whose opinions don't that rise to you level of your self righteousness.

CoachChaz
02-25-2013, 10:09 AM
If comparing horses myview from that of shetland pony compared that clydesdale you sit on. You no concept of how let things go instead you look down on those whose opinions that rise to you level of self righteousness.

This sentence barely makes sense. You drunk? No problem if you are...hell, I still am from last night. But I'm still able to type a cognizant post

Northman
02-25-2013, 10:14 AM
This sentence barely makes sense. You drunk? No problem if you are...hell, I still am from last night. But I'm still able to type a cognizant post

Why do you have to type big words?




lol

CoachChaz
02-25-2013, 10:16 AM
Why do you have to type big words?




lol

I guess to prove I can still be drunk 7 hours after leaving the bar and type big words. I dont ******* know

Chef Zambini
02-25-2013, 10:29 AM
the laws of supply and demand effect the free agency market of the NFL as much as any market system !
it is in fact, a cliche example in is simplicity as each player is a one of a kind, yet their position may have other alternatives available, and each player need only require TWO suiters to drive upo the price, regardless of the value.
mendenhall is NOT the only fish in the pond, and some would argue he aint even the big fish, so his final contract will reflect that.

Chef Zambini
02-25-2013, 10:39 AM
oh and for all the equestrian wanna-bes:
clydesdale; big strong work horse, reliable, dependable. can tote the rock and protect the QB, but may not be a strong threat as a pass catcher.

shetland pony: small nimble, circus performer, an asset as a pass catcher, but not a good candidate for pass protection or a heavy work load.

thoroughbred; good looking animalfaster thaN A SHETLAND, not as strong as a clydesdale, but this breed seems prone to injury, especially leg injuries.

now you texans and horse traders can categories all these runningbacks.
hell, find us a morgan or a quarterhorse if you want, I am hoping for the next mike anderson !

Chef Zambini
02-25-2013, 10:45 AM
hillman, until he can prove his pass protection skills, he must be classified as a shetland pony.
moreno, a thoroughbread who cant stay healthy.
mcgehee; he is our workhorse, our quarterhorse/ clydsdale.
mendenhall a quarterhorse for sure.

TXBRONC
02-25-2013, 11:22 AM
This sentence barely makes sense. You drunk? No problem if you are...hell, I still am from last night. But I'm still able to type a cognizant post

I don't drink.

CoachChaz
02-25-2013, 11:47 AM
I don't drink.

Sorry...just use to seeing comments worded in that manner by drunks

TXBRONC
02-25-2013, 11:50 AM
Sorry...just use to seeing comments worded in that manner by drunks


I don't proof read as much as I should.

CoachChaz
02-25-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't proof read as much as I should.

Fair enough. I'm a drunk, so I can translate it perfectly

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 12:44 PM
BTB likes to argue for the sake of arguing.

The TD statement is probably the dumbest thing I've read on these boards.

And that's saying a lot.

actually, I think I might have to give BTB some credit there with that argument on TD. He's got a point there. But surely you have more of a response to it than this?

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 12:48 PM
hillman, until he can prove his pass protection skills, he must be classified as a shetland pony.
moreno, a thoroughbread who cant stay healthy.
mcgehee; he is our workhorse, our quarterhorse/ clydsdale.
mendenhall a quarterhorse for sure.

not sure what your getting at with the shetland pony comparison to a young and undersized rb, but the toughness of a shetland pony is nothing to sneeze at. Do you know what that breed was developed for? and also, the thoroughbred comparison with moreno is a joke. moreno isn't typically a long distance breakaway back imo.

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 01:24 PM
actually, I think I might have to give BTB some credit there with that argument on TD. He's got a point there. But surely you have more of a response to it than this?

Thanks buddy. People don't like to hear things that shine their idols in a less than perfect light. When TD gets a knee injury it's "catastrophic" and he's still a hero. When Moreno gets a knee injury he's simply injury prone. Players come back from serious ACL tears all the time. Even Moreno did it. TD could never fully come back from his ACL tear.

I'm not in any way trying to paint TD as weak or injury prone (although that's how many on here will frame it), just simply stating that people like to apply logic differently to different players based on if they like them or not.

Northman
02-25-2013, 03:07 PM
TD is a hero because he was a 6th round draft pick that kicked a lot of ass on the field. He had one major injury that basically ended his career. The same cannot be said for a 1st round draft pick who has failed to even be half the player that TD was and is often "nicked' up for one thing or the other.

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 03:30 PM
TD is a hero because he was a 6th round draft pick that kicked a lot of ass on the field. He had one major injury that basically ended his career. The same cannot be said for a 1st round draft pick who has failed to even be half the player that TD was and is often "nicked' up for one thing or the other.

Still trying to change the argument I see. I'm obviously not trying to compare them as players. Just proving a point about how common injuries are with RBs. Since most of our fans don't like Moreno already, this is perfect ammo for them to bash him further.

Moreno may be "nicked up" a bunch, but he still managed to return from one major knee injury to be a productive player last season. Davis never returned to form after his knee injury.

Now let me once again make this clear, this is no knock on TD. I'm just trying, (and apparently failing) to show how common major injuries are among RBs of all skill levels and how even our heroes couldn't recover as well as a player who our fans hate did.

If you listen to our fans you's think Moreno has missed over half his career games due to injury. Simply not the case. Relative to his salary, his production really has not been that bad. Sadly most of our fans are too attached to that "1st round pick" status and simply refuse to look any further than that.

Northman
02-25-2013, 04:00 PM
Relative to his salary, his production really has not been that bad. Sadly most of our fans are too attached to that "1st round pick" status and simply refuse to look any further than that.

Thats because when you draft in the first round you are looking for that playmaker and a player who can and will be consistently on the field. Even with his injuries aside he has still been benched for not being productive or consistent. While you are simply ok with 1st round players either not working out or simply being average thats not how i and some others look at it. Just because some fans expect more out of guy who was projected be more does not mean its hate. To me, he has simply underachieved considering where he was drafted and yes, i expected more. The last 6 games of the season he played very well and was consistent for the first time in god who knows how long. But, he got hurt (again) and had to leave. It happens, but im with Mike as it seems to happen a lot for one reason or another. While RB's do get hurt some get hurt more than others and in MY opinion it tends to happen to Moreno more than it should.

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Thanks buddy. People don't like to hear things that shine their idols in a less than perfect light. When TD gets a knee injury it's "catastrophic" and he's still a hero. When Moreno gets a knee injury he's simply injury prone. Players come back from serious ACL tears all the time. Even Moreno did it. TD could never fully come back from his ACL tear.

I'm not in any way trying to paint TD as weak or injury prone (although that's how many on here will frame it), just simply stating that people like to apply logic differently to different players based on if they like them or not.

yeah, I didn't think you were (saying TD was weak/injury prone. it's called being objective. I thought you made a pretty fair point there. I hate unfairness in the world. HATE it.

Northman
02-25-2013, 04:05 PM
yeah, I didn't think you were (saying TD was weak/injury prone. it's called being objective. I thought you made a pretty fair point there. I hate unfairness in the world. HATE it.

Go back to burying your head in the sand.

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 04:06 PM
TD is a hero because he was a 6th round draft pick that kicked a lot of ass on the field. He had one major injury that basically ended his career. The same cannot be said for a 1st round draft pick who has failed to even be half the player that TD was and is often "nicked' up for one thing or the other.

maybe knowshon is a late bloomer or something. I think that TD is the better back though, definitley. He was a friggin monster

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 04:07 PM
Thats because when you draft in the first round you are looking for that playmaker and a player who can and will be consistently on the field. Even with his injuries aside he has still been benched for not being productive or consistent. While you are simply ok with 1st round players either not working out or simply being average thats not how i and some others look at it. Just because some fans expect more out of guy who was projected be more does not mean its hate. To me, he has simply underachieved considering where he was drafted and yes, i expected more. The last 6 games of the season he played very well and was consistent for the first time in god who knows how long. But, he got hurt (again) and had to leave. It happens, but im with Mike as it seems to happen a lot for one reason or another. While RB's do get hurt some get hurt more than others and in MY opinion it tends to happen to Moreno more than it should.

Would you rather a player play up to his draft pick or his contract? His draft pick has no relevance on today. His contract is very relevant. As Mo proved earlier in this thread, his production is pretty well in line with what he has been paid.

Moreno has no control over where he was picked and there is nothing anyone can do about that. Given that we don't really pay him that much, I don't get all the complaints about his production/injuries. Would I like to see more from him? Of course. But it's not like he's being paid AP or CJ2K money and playing like he does.

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 04:09 PM
yeah, I didn't think you were (saying TD was weak/injury prone. it's called being objective. I thought you made a pretty fair point there. I hate unfairness in the world. HATE it.

I'm glad my point isn't falling on deaf ears nut. You are a smart man.

Northman
02-25-2013, 04:10 PM
maybe knowshon is a late bloomer or something. I think that TD is the better back though, definitley. He was a friggin monster


Nah. Not a late bloomer. I think we've seen everything that we are going to see with him. He's not a playmaker but if you put enough talent around him he can be productive. But, if there is any truth to the rumor of cutting or trading him i would place my bets that it has to do with his inconsistency over the last 4 years.

Northman
02-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Would you rather a player play up to his draft pick or his contract? His draft pick has no relevance on today. His contract is very relevant. As Mo proved earlier in this thread, his production is pretty well in line with what he has been paid.

Moreno has no control over where he was picked and there is nothing anyone can do about that. Given that we don't really pay him that much, I don't get all the complaints about his production/injuries. Would I like to see more from him? Of course. But it's not like he's being paid AP or CJ2K money and playing like he does.

And as ive stated numerous times, if draft position/projection didnt mean anything why doesnt Denver just draft a guy like Dick Quinn in the first round? Dont kid yourself, it means something no matter how much of a risk it is. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but it does matter. The difference at times is like getting Peyton Manning or getting Ryan Leaf. If Moreno had been taken in the 3rd round like Greene i wouldnt have much to say because then he would be playing like a 3rd round pick. Is it good that he isnt making 65 million? Oh yea. But it doesnt mean im happy that he isnt better than he is at this point. Like i said before, i watched him at Georgia and loved what he did there but it just never translated here. Sadly.

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Go back to burying your head in the sand.

that is bs. I will address this in a minute.

Northman
02-25-2013, 04:16 PM
that is bs. I will address this in a minute.

Times up.

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 04:24 PM
And as ive stated numerous times, if draft position/projection didnt mean anything why doesnt Denver just draft a guy like Dick Quinn in the first round? Dont kid yourself, it means something no matter how much of a risk it is. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but it does matter. The difference at times is like getting Peyton Manning or getting Ryan Leaf. If Moreno had been taken in the 3rd round like Greene i wouldnt have much to say because then he would be playing like a 3rd round pick. Is it good that he isnt making 65 million? Oh yea. But it doesnt mean im happy that he isnt better than he is at this point. Like i said before, i watched him at Georgia and loved what he did there but it just never translated here. Sadly.

You are free to have that opinion, but my point is as long as he is performing well enough relatively to his salary, why would you get rid of him for no reason other than his draft position?

Just because he hasn't lived up to his draft pick doesn't mean he holds no value on a 53 man roster at the right price.

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 04:35 PM
Times up.

give me a bit more time please. I happen to be working at the moment and dont' have time for your pedantic bullshit right now

Northman
02-25-2013, 05:11 PM
give me a bit more time please. I happen to be working at the moment and dont' have time for your pedantic bullshit right now

Fail.

Im at work too. They call it multi-tasking.

Jaded
02-25-2013, 05:29 PM
Pedantic?.......

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 05:44 PM
Pedantic?.......

I was wondering about that word too. Not REALLY sure it it was what I wanted there. ran it across the guy I was talking to and he said it was ok, but I'm with you

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 05:46 PM
I was wondering about that word too. Not REALLY sure it it was what I wanted there. ran it across the guy I was talking to and he said it was ok, but I'm with you

yeah, it works well enough

BroncoNut
02-25-2013, 05:47 PM
Nah. Not a late bloomer. I think we've seen everything that we are going to see with him. He's not a playmaker but if you put enough talent around him he can be productive. But, if there is any truth to the rumor of cutting or trading him i would place my bets that it has to do with his inconsistency over the last 4 years.

he showed some brilliance towards the end of the season so I'm not so sure about that.

Northman
02-25-2013, 05:55 PM
he showed some brilliance towards the end of the season so I'm not so sure about that.

Thats why i said over the last 4 years.

They may keep him because of the last 6 games but then they may also take his total production over the course of when he was drafted and go with that. At this point its anyone's guess.

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 07:11 PM
Thankfully John Elway is smarter than to cut someone for no other reason that where a different regime drafted him. If his contract was way higher than his performance that would be one thing, but since his pay is right in line with his production, where he was drafted is completely meaningless.

Nomad
02-25-2013, 07:13 PM
give me a bit more time please. I happen to be working at the moment and dont' have time for your pedantic bullshit right now

Does your employer know you are cheating him out of production time?

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 07:18 PM
Does your employer know you are cheating him out of production time?

I frequently post at work too. We have lots of downtime where there is literally no work to do.

Nomad
02-25-2013, 07:19 PM
I frequently post at work too. We have lots of downtime where there is literally no work to do.

I was giving nut crap, but it sounds like time to cut hours for some folks here.:lol:

BroncoWave
02-25-2013, 07:22 PM
I was giving nut crap, but it sounds like time to cut hours for some folks here.:lol:

That would be difficult at my job. We can have work come in at any point of the day, so if hours are cut there may not be enough people in the office to finish the work on time if a new project comes in.

I won't complain about being paid to sit and fool around online though! :lol:

Nomad
02-25-2013, 07:25 PM
I've never had an office job, so I'm jealous. But no one is up when I'm at work anyway.

Ok I digress, back to Moreno.

Nomad
02-25-2013, 07:33 PM
Thankfully John Elway is smarter than to cut someone for no other reason that where a different regime drafted him. If his contract was way higher than his performance that would be one thing, but since his pay is right in line with his production, where he was drafted is completely meaningless.


i'm not questioning his production vs draft spot, but just wondering......Wasn't he drafted a little earlier than expected because McDaniels assumed the Chargers were going to pick him up? I can't remember.

Slick
02-25-2013, 08:30 PM
Do we think we can count on the backs we currently have to carry the mail for 16 games and a deep playoff run? I'm sure that's the question Elway has been asking himself this off season.

When healthy, I think McGahee, Moreno and Hillman is a solid trio, but are they willing to risk a run for the Lombardi on it?

Rex
02-25-2013, 08:57 PM
Do we think we can count on the backs we currently have to carry the mail for 16 games and a deep playoff run? I'm sure that's the question Elway has been asking himself this off season.

When healthy, I think McGahee, Moreno and Hillman is a solid trio, but are they willing to risk a run for the Lombardi on it?

Nope. Willis is old. Knowshon is not durable or tough and Hillman weighs 175 lbs

Slick
02-25-2013, 09:43 PM
Bunk is my man Rex. Lester Freeman too.

Jaded
02-26-2013, 01:27 AM
I was wondering about that word too. Not REALLY sure it it was what I wanted there. ran it across the guy I was talking to and he said it was ok, but I'm with you

I like it. Mind if I steal it?.......

BroncoNut
02-26-2013, 07:50 AM
I like it. Mind if I steal it?.......

it's not mine Jaded. It's just as much yours for the taking. It always has been. all you have to do is take it. enjoy the journey brother

Jaded
02-27-2013, 01:06 AM
it's not mine Jaded. It's just as much yours for the taking. It always has been. all you have to do is take it. enjoy the journey brother

I'm excited. It's a big step, I know, but I think I'm ready.......