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Northman
08-23-2009, 12:00 AM
Ironically, despite a better stats effort for Orton im just very disappointed in this team. The team looks absolutely lost out there. The guys arent taking care of the ball, the defense looks out of position, the Qb is making poor decisions in the redzone and not paying attention to the playclock. The Coach (on the surface) just has no real idea of the players capabilities on the roster. But, here we go.

Qbs:

Orton- Despite looking better between the 20's and his passes looking more crisp he still has a lot of downfalls. The guy needs to improve dramatically for this team to even stand a chance this year. We just cannot keep giving away points in the redzone.

Simms- Obviously Simms hasnt been in that long and considering the lack of securing the ball there isnt much to go on right now. I still like Simms and his accuracy far more than Orton. And i feel better with him in there but because he is playing with the 2nd string defense on the other side its just too hard to say how he would fair playing as the starter. But, i just like his accuracy and arm strength more than Orton at this point. Im hoping McD gives that kid a chance to start a preseason game.

Oline- Dude, they struggled tonight. Too many penalties, their pass protection was not what we are used to seeing. They definitely havent opened up any holes for the Rb's either tonight and thats concerning. I think everyone was asleep at the wheel tonight.

Defense:

If not for the turnovers i would say they had done a pretty fair job. But giving the opposing offense a short field and they will make short work of our defense no matter which unit is out there.

Dline- Im still pretty impressed that they are able to get some sacks. That is a good sign, however some of the shoddy tackling is much to be desired. McD needs to get them back to tackling drills as i saw a lot of what killed us last year.

LB- Did a pretty good job, still had some tackling issues.

DB's- A whole lot of phail tonight. I wasnt impressed with Bailey or anyone tonight. The good moments were overshadowed by a lot more bad moments.

ST's- Dont get me started. WTF happened? In one week this team resorted back to their bad habits and the return guys had no communication at all out there.

I know, its only 2 preseason games but man. We are supposed to see them gel more and improve more. That didnt happen tonight. The playcalling was terrible, no imagination whatsoever. Maybe McD is finding out what works and what doesnt but i think the most important thing should be letting these guys gain confidence, not test the waters playcalling wise. There has been too much change to not give them a chance to gel together. We need solid playcalling with better execution.

Game 2 Grade: D

MasterShake
08-23-2009, 12:15 AM
Ironically, despite a better stats effort for Orton im just very disappointed in this team. The team looks absolutely lost out there. The guys arent taking care of the ball, the defense looks out of position, the Qb is making poor decisions in the redzone and not paying attention to the playclock. The Coach (on the surface) just has no real idea of the players capabilities on the roster. But, here we go.

Qbs:

Orton- Despite looking better between the 20's and his passes looking more crisp he still has a lot of downfalls. The guy needs to improve dramatically for this team to even stand a chance this year. We just cannot keep giving away points in the redzone.

Simms- Obviously Simms hasnt been in that long and considering the lack of securing the ball there isnt much to go on right now. I still like Simms and his accuracy far more than Orton. And i feel better with him in there but because he is playing with the 2nd string defense on the other side its just too hard to say how he would fair playing as the starter. But, i just like his accuracy and arm strength more than Orton at this point. Im hoping McD gives that kid a chance to start a preseason game.

Oline- Dude, they struggled tonight. Too many penalties, their pass protection was not what we are used to seeing. They definitely havent opened up any holes for the Rb's either tonight and thats concerning. I think everyone was asleep at the wheel tonight.

Defense:

If not for the turnovers i would say they had done a pretty fair job. But giving the opposing offense a short field and they will make short work of our defense no matter which unit is out there.

Dline- Im still pretty impressed that they are able to get some sacks. That is a good sign, however some of the shoddy tackling is much to be desired. McD needs to get them back to tackling drills as i saw a lot of what killed us last year.

LB- Did a pretty good job, still had some tackling issues.

DB's- A whole lot of phail tonight. I wasnt impressed with Bailey or anyone tonight. The good moments were overshadowed by a lot more bad moments.

ST's- Dont get me started. WTF happened? In one week this team resorted back to their bad habits and the return guys had no communication at all out there.

I know, its only 2 preseason games but man. We are supposed to see them gel more and improve more. That didnt happen tonight. The playcalling was terrible, no imagination whatsoever. Maybe McD is finding out what works and what doesnt but i think the most important thing should be letting these guys gain confidence, not test the waters playcalling wise. There has been too much change to not give them a chance to gel together. We need solid playcalling with better execution.

Game 2 Grade: D

I agree for the most part, but the starting O-line did a great job IMO. I still have a hard time putting too much stock in pre-season, though. If Orton would have got that second TD instead of the left hand interception the complexion of the game would have changed. Or not. Its hard to judge consistency when you have to trudge out 2nd and 3rd stringers.

dogfish
08-23-2009, 12:21 AM
yea, i thought the starting O-line looked really good. . . .

LRtagger
08-23-2009, 12:27 AM
The most concerning thing to me were the botched KRs and PRs and the blocked punt. Those things shouldnt happen even in preseason.

Goodman was not in very good position on the TD pass, but at least he was running stride for stride with the receiver and didnt get beat over the top. He just had bad positioning in relation to the ball.

I thought the secondary actually played well. I think we had a couple coverage sacks, but there should have been two balls picked that were not.

The linebackers got eaten up by the underneath stuff...on that long drive right before the half they completed two very long screen passes. They also missed some tackles.

I thought Kyle played well besides the one INT. But honestly should have scored on 2nd down if Gaffney doesn't drop that ball. I would think during the regular season we would have run the ball at least once from the 1 and probably would have kicked the FG on 4rd down. It's a completely different game without that INT.

Defense looked average overall as did special teams. I was glad to see Prater hit that long FG

Overall I think we made improvements over last week. I think next week's game should really tell us more about the team as a whole.

claymore
08-23-2009, 12:40 AM
Tonights game was absolutely embarrassing. I hope JMCD gets thrown over the coals, along with Bowlen.

When you bring in a new regime, you are supposed to get better.

Tned
08-23-2009, 01:40 AM
At one point they put up a stat that showed we had run 15 pass plays and I think it was 5 run plays. They announcers laughed and said, "now that's pass heavy" or something like that.

Tned
08-23-2009, 01:44 AM
I'm not sure if I will bring myself to watch the game again, and I was checking the tweets from the game and posting in the gameday thread, so I wasn't really studying the game as it happened.

One observation I did have is that it seemed like either Orton was off target at times, or the receivers were out of position/ran the wrong route.

I also think we went to the well too many times on the screen. I know there was a lot of talk in TC about how we were likely to see a lot of screens, but you need to mix it up a little more, IMO.

Broncos Mtnman
08-23-2009, 01:57 AM
Ironically, despite a better stats effort for Orton im just very disappointed in this team. The team looks absolutely lost out there. The guys arent taking care of the ball, the defense looks out of position, the Qb is making poor decisions in the redzone and not paying attention to the playclock. The Coach (on the surface) just has no real idea of the players capabilities on the roster. But, here we go.

Qbs:

Orton- Despite looking better between the 20's and his passes looking more crisp he still has a lot of downfalls. The guy needs to improve dramatically for this team to even stand a chance this year. We just cannot keep giving away points in the redzone.

Simms- Obviously Simms hasnt been in that long and considering the lack of securing the ball there isnt much to go on right now. I still like Simms and his accuracy far more than Orton. And i feel better with him in there but because he is playing with the 2nd string defense on the other side its just too hard to say how he would fair playing as the starter. But, i just like his accuracy and arm strength more than Orton at this point. Im hoping McD gives that kid a chance to start a preseason game.

Oline- Dude, they struggled tonight. Too many penalties, their pass protection was not what we are used to seeing. They definitely havent opened up any holes for the Rb's either tonight and thats concerning. I think everyone was asleep at the wheel tonight.

Defense:

If not for the turnovers i would say they had done a pretty fair job. But giving the opposing offense a short field and they will make short work of our defense no matter which unit is out there.

Dline- Im still pretty impressed that they are able to get some sacks. That is a good sign, however some of the shoddy tackling is much to be desired. McD needs to get them back to tackling drills as i saw a lot of what killed us last year.

LB- Did a pretty good job, still had some tackling issues.

DB's- A whole lot of phail tonight. I wasnt impressed with Bailey or anyone tonight. The good moments were overshadowed by a lot more bad moments.

ST's- Dont get me started. WTF happened? In one week this team resorted back to their bad habits and the return guys had no communication at all out there.

I know, its only 2 preseason games but man. We are supposed to see them gel more and improve more. That didnt happen tonight. The playcalling was terrible, no imagination whatsoever. Maybe McD is finding out what works and what doesnt but i think the most important thing should be letting these guys gain confidence, not test the waters playcalling wise. There has been too much change to not give them a chance to gel together. We need solid playcalling with better execution.

Game 2 Grade: D

I've gotta disagree with your defense observation.

The first team defense played the whole first half. Seattle's two touchdown drives were 70 yards and 80 yards.

Not exactly "short" fields.

Watchthemiddle
08-23-2009, 02:01 AM
Tonights game was absolutely embarrassing. I hope JMCD gets thrown over the coals, along with Bowlen.

When you bring in a new regime, you are supposed to get better.

Well Clay, when Shanny was here and a new QB came in, they were all given a free pass until the third season. Don't you remember that old saying we kept hearing "the Qb will fully get and understand the offense coming into his third season."

Since this is a new regime, new system (offense and defense), half of the team new players, I think they deserve the chance to try and make it work. Two preseason games and a handful of weeks of practice is not enough time.

I don't think anyone realistically thought we were going to be above .500 this season anyway, so why does anyone all of a sudden have to bash the team when the expectations were low to begin with? I could understand bashing them if it were the 96 caliber Broncos and they Choked in 97 ( thank God they didn't) but they aren't and it takes time.

Northman
08-23-2009, 02:02 AM
I've gotta disagree with your defense observation.

The first team defense played the whole first half. Seattle's two touchdown drives were 70 yards and 80 yards.

Not exactly "short" fields.


I was talking mainly about the second half turnovers which ended up being shorter fields. Despite the TD drives they still had some good moments that i liked. They arent the Ravens or Steelers but i think they are a little better than we were last year. Time will tell.

Watchthemiddle
08-23-2009, 02:03 AM
And...and...and...

Last I checked, McDaniels hasn't made any boneheaded predictions saying "we will not miss the playoffs"

shank
08-23-2009, 02:04 AM
i agree with wtm. what did everyone expect? i'm still relatively optimistic about this season, but never expected miracles.

these games mean nothing. the lions were 4-0 in preseason last year...

this team will be a work in progress all year, and it's going to be pretty blatantly obvious for some time to come. simmer folks.

Northman
08-23-2009, 02:05 AM
And...and...and...

Last I checked, McDaniels hasn't made any boneheaded predictions saying "we will not miss the playoffs"


Thats very true. Good thing he hasnt made any predictions about winning any games this year either. :lol:

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 02:20 AM
I thought overall the first teamers play pretty good.. the blocked punt was a huge game changer..

SEA is not the hawks of last year folks.. that was a pretty decent team we played with most of their folks at least knowing each other ..

anyone that was expecting a play off run this year was delusional to start with....


way to many changes this year and playing a hell of a schedule to go very far..

Tempus Fugit
08-23-2009, 02:27 AM
The starting offense looked fine, even without Marshall. Red zone offense is the last thing that will come around for Orton in this system. The same thing happened with Cassel last season. Yes, the interception in the endzone was stupid, but it's the preseason, and you look at is as something that the coaches will deal with so that it doesn't happen when the games count. This Denver offense could be very potent, even with Orton pulling the trigger, if Marshall would just pop a Midol and get back on the field.

The defense, on the other hand, is going to be a work in progress all season long. That front seven just doesn't seem to have what's needed to hold up at the point of attack, and that's going to make for a lot of long drives and time of possession issues during the course of the year.

Lastly, filing under obvious:

Ball protection will be a point of emphasis this week.

dogfish
08-23-2009, 02:27 AM
enh. . . i'm certainly not thrilled, but i'm not panicked yet either. . .


a couple of "special" teams mistakes cost us big time, and we were playing without the guy that'll be our top RB by the end of the first month at the latest, and without our top receiver. . .

i'm usually the pessimistic one, but i honestly didn't see anything TOO serious that shouldn't be correctable. . . i never expected a defense with what we have in the front seven to morph into the steelers, or an offense led by kyle orton to rival the greatest show on turf, but i feel like we have a chance to be competitive this year if things come together the right way. . .

i really feel that the ability of our young defensive backs (especially alphonso smith) to develop into solid contributors sometime this season is going to have a big impact on how we play down the stretch, because we really need the young legs and athleticism out there. . . i don't see any way that this front seven is ever going to be special without an infusion of talent, but i'm at least encouraged that we once again managed to generate some pass rush. . . i've said all along that i think doom has a chance to be a force rushing from the OLB spot, and he notched another sack tonight. . .

if doogie can find the page in the playbook that has the runs, and we can stop orton from throwing any more left-handed picks in the re zone, i think we'll be okay. . .

Tempus Fugit
08-23-2009, 02:27 AM
I thought overall the first teamers play pretty good.. the blocked punt was a huge game changer..

SEA is not the hawks of last year folks.. that was a pretty decent team we played with most of their folks at least knowing each other ..

anyone that was expecting a play off run this year was delusional to start with....


way to many changes this year and playing a hell of a schedule to go very far..

If Hasselbeck can stay healthy, I expect the Seahawks to contend for their division this season.

Broncos Mtnman
08-23-2009, 02:31 AM
Well Clay, when Shanny was here and a new QB came in, they were all given a free pass until the third season. Don't you remember that old saying we kept hearing "the Qb will fully get and understand the offense coming into his third season."

Since this is a new regime, new system (offense and defense), half of the team new players, I think they deserve the chance to try and make it work. Two preseason games and a handful of weeks of practice is not enough time.

I don't think anyone realistically thought we were going to be above .500 this season anyway, so why does anyone all of a sudden have to bash the team when the expectations were low to begin with? I could understand bashing them if it were the 96 caliber Broncos and they Choked in 97 ( thank God they didn't) but they aren't and it takes time.

So, just wondering....

Would Cutler have gotten the same consideration if he had stayed? Would you have cut him a break for throwing three picks last week? Would he get a pass for the "lefty" INT in the Red Zone?

After all, it would have been the first season in a new system.

Somehow, I doubt it....

For the record, left-handed INTs have NOTHING to do with learning a new system.

Champ Bailey being burned on a simple rollout has NOTHING to do with learning a new system.

Poor tackling and fumbles have NOTHING to do with a new system.

These are the fundamentals. And Mickey's team is failing miserably in that area.

Tned
08-23-2009, 02:33 AM
And...and...and...

Last I checked, McDaniels hasn't made any boneheaded predictions saying "we will not miss the playoffs"

No, he hasn't, but he did say something along the lines of, "I have never been on a losing team or even a .500 team, going back to high school, and I don't intend to now". That's paraphased, even though I put it in quotes, but the essence of what he has said.

He has on a number of occaissions insinuated that we would win right away, not go through a rebuilding period.

Broncos Mtnman
08-23-2009, 02:33 AM
if doogie can find the page in the playbook that has the runs, and we can stop orton from throwing any more left-handed picks in the re zone, i think we'll be okay. . .

Doogie doesn't have a playbook.

He hands out pamphlets, kind of like a Hare Krishna at the airport.

:coffee:

sneakers
08-23-2009, 02:41 AM
Doogie doesn't have a playbook.

He hands out pamphlets, kind of like a Hare Krishna at the airport.

:coffee:

They have rabbits handing out pamplets at the Denver airport?

Watchthemiddle
08-23-2009, 02:42 AM
So, just wondering....

Would Cutler have gotten the same consideration if he had stayed? Would you have cut him a break for throwing three picks last week? Would he get a pass for the "lefty" INT in the Red Zone?

After all, it would have been the first season in a new system.

Somehow, I doubt it....

For the record, left-handed INTs have NOTHING to do with learning a new system.

Champ Bailey being burned on a simple rollout has NOTHING to do with learning a new system.

Poor tackling and fumbles have NOTHING to do with a new system.

These are the fundamentals. And Mickey's team is failing miserably in that area.

So just answering.....

Cutler didn't get a break in his third season in the system last year when he threw drive killing INT's in the red zone and missed the playoffs for the third consecutive year. You know, after all lit was his third year when it was supposed to "click" and stop making all of the bad decisions.

Also, this is the second preseason game in this system. Not third year

Your right ...Sheff's fumble..bad ball handling.

Champ getting burned,...plays overly aggressive. His nature. He's either gonna look really good or really bad at times.

Left handed INT bad decision.

However, ( and i realize you have never played or coached football before ) things take time. Mistakes are gonna happen. Its the nature of the game. How bad did your man crush look last week compared to this week? Terrible.....but he got better this week. Same thing with ORton...terrible last week, better this week.

Care to talk about any positives for this game? If not, your going to have a long season if you only chime in with everything negative.

I however, saw many positives to build on. You need to see the whole game realisticaly and not so cynical and you would see building blocks too.

PS. This was the entire teams second preseason game in the new offense and defensive system. Not third year. So sorry, but it will get better and you will have to deal with it.

And also, your still just a 6.

Broncos Mtnman
08-23-2009, 02:54 AM
So just answering.....

Cutler didn't get a break in his third season in the system last year when he threw drive killing INT's in the red zone and missed the playoffs for the third consecutive year. You know, after all lit was his third year when it was supposed to "click" and stop making all of the bad decisions.

Cutler was only a second year STARTER, but that's not what I asked you.


Also, this is the second preseason game in this system. Not third year


And if Cutler had stayed, it would only be his second preseason game in this system, which is what my question was to you. You know, the one you didn't answer.


Your right ...Sheff's fumble..bad ball handling.

Orton's left-handed pass..bad ball handling.


Champ getting burned,...plays overly aggressive. His nature. He's either gonna look really good or really bad at times.

But not a "system" problem, is it?


Left handed INT bad decision.

I know.


However, ( and i realize you have never played or coached football before ) things take time. Mistakes are gonna happen. Its the nature of the game. How bad did your man crush look last week compared to this week? Terrible.....but he got better this week. Same thing with ORton...terrible last week, better this week.

Actually, I played in high school my freshman and sophmore year, but that's hardly relevant, is it?


Care to talk about any positives for this game? If not, your going to have a long season if you only chime in with everything negative.

Peyton Hillis.


I however, saw many positives to build on. You need to see the whole game realisticaly and not so cynical and you would see building blocks too.

Tonight, there were building blocks, but Seattle knocked them all down.


PS. This was the entire teams second preseason game in the new offense and defensive system. Not third year. So sorry, but it will get better and you will have to deal with it.

You're kinda hung up on that third year thing. I asked you (and you didn't answer) if Cutler would be getting the same pass you're giving Orton. If he had stayed, it would have only been his second game in a new system, just like Orton.

Actually, your dancing around the question does provide the answer. Never mind....


And also, your still just a 6.

Ummmm, OK.

sneakers
08-23-2009, 02:56 AM
i agree with wtm. what did everyone expect? i'm still relatively optimistic about this season, but never expected miracles.

these games mean nothing. the lions were 4-0 in preseason last year...

this team will be a work in progress all year, and it's going to be pretty blatantly obvious for some time to come. simmer folks.

We have a new offense and a new defense...things like this are bound to happen....look at all the rookie coaches that have had success recently, I bet all or nearly all of them kept a version of the same offense/defense they inharited.

I think we are doing very well given the circumstances.

Watchthemiddle
08-23-2009, 03:02 AM
i agree with wtm. what did everyone expect? i'm still relatively optimistic about this season, but never expected miracles.

these games mean nothing. the lions were 4-0 in preseason last year...

this team will be a work in progress all year, and it's going to be pretty blatantly obvious for some time to come. simmer folks.

You get it. :beer:

Watchthemiddle
08-23-2009, 03:03 AM
Cutler was only a second year STARTER, but that's not what I asked you.



And if Cutler had stayed, it would only be his second preseason game in this system, which is what my question was to you. You know, the one you didn't answer.



Orton's left-handed pass..bad ball handling.



But not a "system" problem, is it?



I know.



Actually, I played in high school my freshman and sophmore year, but that's hardly relevant, is it?



Peyton Hillis.



Tonight, there were building blocks, but Seattle knocked them all down.



You're kinda hung up on that third year thing. I asked you (and you didn't answer) if Cutler would be getting the same pass you're giving Orton. If he had stayed, it would have only been his second game in a new system, just like Orton.

Actually, your dancing around the question does provide the answer. Never mind....



Ummmm, OK.


*yawn*

Giberish almost put me to sleep

Good night all

dogfish
08-23-2009, 03:12 AM
So, just wondering....

Would Cutler have gotten the same consideration if he had stayed? Would you have cut him a break for throwing three picks last week? Would he get a pass for the "lefty" INT in the Red Zone?

After all, it would have been the first season in a new system.

Somehow, I doubt it....




they would've had him drawn, quartered and burned at the stake by now. . . anyone who's been here KNOWS that's the absolute truth, and any denial is just feeble. . .


of course, that doesn't do anything to change the fact that it IS a legitimate point. . . it doesn't mean that orton isn't a knucklehead, and a league-average at the very best quarterback at this point, but they aren't wrong when they say that we really haven't seen enough of him in this system to make a fair judgement. . . it's easy to say that he played like utter shit last week, and it's true. . . it's also true that he actually looked pretty damn good out there tonight up until the moronic jake plummer impersonation. . . :doh:

he was making crisp throws, getting the ball out fairly quickly and mostly on target-- he completed a very high percentage of his passes on those first few drives. . . of course, the cynic could point out that they were all short passes, but that's what this offense is, like it or not. . . but we were moving the ball pretty efficiently, even without our two top skill position guys. . . we got a glimpse tonight of what eddie royal can be in this system, and it looked pretty awesome. . .

so which is worse? their refusal to admit that they would have murdered jay for the same mistakes orton gets a pass on, pre-season or no, or your refusal to admit that it's too soon to preclaim orton's denver career an abject failure? because they look about the same to me, and the bottom line is that you, JR and WTM ALL need to freakin' knock it off, cut out the bullshit and put your agendas aside. . . please! plummer's gone, cutler is unfortunately gone, and shanahan is gone. . . can we just let it die? i realize that debates about the effects of the trade will be going on for years, but can't we just drop the vitriol and dripping sarcasm and just have a few halfway civil discussions about the broncos once in a while? cripes, you guys line up and take sides as though this were politics. . .

enough's enough already. . . sheesh. . .

Broncos Mtnman
08-23-2009, 03:14 AM
*yawn*

Giberish almost put me to sleep

Good night all

http://genesis8.free.fr/images/frontend/cop-out_1.png

Tned
08-23-2009, 03:18 AM
because they look about the same to me, and the bottom line is that you, JR and WTM ALL need to freakin' knock it off, cut out the bullshit and put your agendas aside. . . please! plummer's gone, cutler is unfortunately gone, and shanahan is gone. . . can we just let it die? i realize that debates about the effects of the trade will be going on for years, but can't we just drop the vitriol and dripping sarcasm and just have a few halfway civil discussions about the broncos once in a while? cripes, you guys line up and take sides as though this were politics. . .

enough's enough already. . . sheesh. . .

Can I get an Amen? Amen. Well said, and I hope the advice is heeded. On that note, I'm going to bed.

dogfish
08-23-2009, 03:24 AM
back on topic. . .

one thing that really concerns me going forward is doogie's decision to call the offensive plays himself. . . i know his supposedly genius playcalling is one of the things we brought him here for, but it's a LOT to handle alongside all the HCs other responsibilities, even for a seasoned vet-- let alone a first-timer. . . you have to excuse the little mistakes due to the fact that we have SO many new parts all trying to come together, but-- it's not going to be excusable if we're still burning timeouts because the O isn't lined up properly or the clock's running down on a regular basis at midseason or later. . .

it looked to me as though we were having some fairly significant problems getting out of the huddle and ready to go, and i don't know whether it's guys just not having the playbook completely mastered and being on the same page, or if doogie was late getting the plays in. . . but either way, it's something that needs to get dealt with. . . working the kinks out in pre-season is fine, that's what it's for, but those little details will lose you games if it keeps happening. . . the history of first-time head coaches also calling plays isn't especially glorious, some notable exceptions aside. . . hopefully doogie will be the latter, but if he finds that it's too much for him, i hope his stubborn pride will allow him to turn the duties over to the OC rather than dragging the team down before he admits that it's a mistake. . .

he also needs to mix it up a little bit more. . . i'm not going to complain if he can make it work, but i'm really not a huge fan of using the shotgun as one of our base offensive formations. . . you invested heavily in the backfield and overpaid for a second blocking TE-- let's give them a chance to make some plays, please. . . yes, even with knowshon out. . .

and while i LOVE seeing more screens worked into our offense, you can only call so many of them before the defense starts to figure it out. . .

topscribe
08-23-2009, 04:10 AM
back on topic. . .

one thing that really concerns me going forward is doogie's decision to call the offensive plays himself. . . i know his supposedly genius playcalling is one of the things we brought him here for, but it's a LOT to handle alongside all the HCs other responsibilities, even for a seasoned vet-- let alone a first-timer. . . you have to excuse the little mistakes due to the fact that we have SO many new parts all trying to come together, but-- it's not going to be excusable if we're still burning timeouts because the O isn't lined up properly or the clock's running down on a regular basis at midseason or later. . .

it looked to me as though we were having some fairly significant problems getting out of the huddle and ready to go, and i don't know whether it's guys just not having the playbook completely mastered and being on the same page, or if doogie was late getting the plays in. . . but either way, it's something that needs to get dealt with. . . working the kinks out in pre-season is fine, that's what it's for, but those little details will lose you games if it keeps happening. . . the history of first-time head coaches also calling plays isn't especially glorious, some notable exceptions aside. . . hopefully doogie will be the latter, but if he finds that it's too much for him, i hope his stubborn pride will allow him to turn the duties over to the OC rather than dragging the team down before he admits that it's a mistake. . .

he also needs to mix it up a little bit more. . . i'm not going to complain if he can make it work, but i'm really not a huge fan of using the shotgun as one of our base offensive formations. . . you invested heavily in the backfield and overpaid for a second blocking TE-- let's give them a chance to make some plays, please. . . yes, even with knowshon out. . .

and while i LOVE seeing more screens worked into our offense, you can only call so many of them before the defense starts to figure it out. . .

Thank you for the objective evaluations. I'm not sure about the "doogie" bit,
but I don't believe you mean it in a derogatory fashion (kind of like my use
of the "Tater" moniker for you-know-who?). But the game revealed that
there are reasons to be encouraged, and there are reasons to be concerned,
and you covered both angles well, IMO.

-----

Dirk
08-23-2009, 05:13 AM
It's Preseason folks!

I saw a lot of positives and negatives. But it is meaningless.

Teams take this time to find out what they need to work on and try to get them fixed before the season starts.

I was actually quite pleased with the 1st teamers (up until the left handed int). The offense looked pretty good. Timing is a concern.

Defense didn't look half bad either.

Again, a lot of new schemes to learn. And a lot of players that need to "gel" before they get great together.

This season was a wash before it even started. But now, I am a little optimistic after watching last night. Not for a playoff run but for a development season. It's actually going to be fun watching this team grow.

Dreadnought
08-23-2009, 06:32 AM
they would've had him drawn, quartered and burned at the stake by now. . . anyone who's been here KNOWS that's the absolute truth, and any denial is just feeble. . .


of course, that doesn't do anything to change the fact that it IS a legitimate point. . . it doesn't mean that orton isn't a knucklehead, and a league-average at the very best quarterback at this point, but they aren't wrong when they say that we really haven't seen enough of him in this system to make a fair judgement. . . it's easy to say that he played like utter shit last week, and it's true. . . it's also true that he actually looked pretty damn good out there tonight up until the moronic jake plummer impersonation. . . :doh:

he was making crisp throws, getting the ball out fairly quickly and mostly on target-- he completed a very high percentage of his passes on those first few drives. . . of course, the cynic could point out that they were all short passes, but that's what this offense is, like it or not. . . but we were moving the ball pretty efficiently, even without our two top skill position guys. . . we got a glimpse tonight of what eddie royal can be in this system, and it looked pretty awesome. . .

so which is worse? their refusal to admit that they would have murdered jay for the same mistakes orton gets a pass on, pre-season or no, or your refusal to admit that it's too soon to preclaim orton's denver career an abject failure? because they look about the same to me, and the bottom line is that you, JR and WTM ALL need to freakin' knock it off, cut out the bullshit and put your agendas aside. . . please! plummer's gone, cutler is unfortunately gone, and shanahan is gone. . . can we just let it die? i realize that debates about the effects of the trade will be going on for years, but can't we just drop the vitriol and dripping sarcasm and just have a few halfway civil discussions about the broncos once in a while? cripes, you guys line up and take sides as though this were politics. . .

enough's enough already. . . sheesh. . .

My only counter is this. The new England system of controlled short passing only works because Tom Brady is a serious legit threat to hit the deep ball, at any time, from anywhere. That keeps DB's on their heels and creates space for underneath stuff. If Orton cannot start hitting intermediate to long passes then we will very rarely break 20 points, and that won't win us games with this defense. As such, I have seen zero cause for optimism, because I don't think he can do it.

TXBRONC
08-23-2009, 07:36 AM
they would've had him drawn, quartered and burned at the stake by now. . . anyone who's been here KNOWS that's the absolute truth, and any denial is just feeble. . .


of course, that doesn't do anything to change the fact that it IS a legitimate point. . . it doesn't mean that orton isn't a knucklehead, and a league-average at the very best quarterback at this point, but they aren't wrong when they say that we really haven't seen enough of him in this system to make a fair judgement. . . it's easy to say that he played like utter shit last week, and it's true. . . it's also true that he actually looked pretty damn good out there tonight up until the moronic jake plummer impersonation. . . :doh:

he was making crisp throws, getting the ball out fairly quickly and mostly on target-- he completed a very high percentage of his passes on those first few drives. . . of course, the cynic could point out that they were all short passes, but that's what this offense is, like it or not. . . but we were moving the ball pretty efficiently, even without our two top skill position guys. . . we got a glimpse tonight of what eddie royal can be in this system, and it looked pretty awesome. . .

so which is worse? their refusal to admit that they would have murdered jay for the same mistakes orton gets a pass on, pre-season or no, or your refusal to admit that it's too soon to preclaim orton's denver career an abject failure? because they look about the same to me, and the bottom line is that you, JR and WTM ALL need to freakin' knock it off, cut out the bullshit and put your agendas aside. . . please! plummer's gone, cutler is unfortunately gone, and shanahan is gone. . . can we just let it die? i realize that debates about the effects of the trade will be going on for years, but can't we just drop the vitriol and dripping sarcasm and just have a few halfway civil discussions about the broncos once in a while? cripes, you guys line up and take sides as though this were politics. . .

enough's enough already. . . sheesh. . .

It would be nice for it to stop because all it does drag in a lot people that might otherwise not be drawn into the fray.

TXBRONC
08-23-2009, 07:39 AM
My only counter is this. The new England system of controlled short passing only works because Tom Brady is a serious legit threat to hit the deep ball, at any time, from anywhere. That keeps DB's on their heels and creates space for underneath stuff. If Orton cannot start hitting intermediate to long passes then we will very rarely break 20 points, and that won't win us games with this defense. As such, I have seen zero cause for optimism, because I don't think he can do it.

We need Marshall back badly.

Dreadnought
08-23-2009, 07:44 AM
We need Marshall back badly.

I don't think Marshall can help. I don't think Orton can get him the ball anyway.

Nomad
08-23-2009, 07:49 AM
I agree your take Northman, but I believe this team has been lost for a few years now even with wonder/whining boy, Cutler and mastermind Shanny and defense must of left with Al Wilson because I haven't seen any in the last few years as well. As many have said, this is new team but you know they all are pro football players and I would have expected better even though it's preseason. I'm willing to give McDaniel's and Orton their due but by midseason if games go like this every Sunday, patience will run thin.

Nomad
08-23-2009, 07:52 AM
I don't think Marshall can help. I don't think Orton can get him the ball anyway.

Orton does have a slow release. It's like watching slow motion, but like I said I'm willing to give him his 'time to learn and grow'.

claymore
08-23-2009, 08:04 AM
I don't think Marshall can help. I don't think Orton can get him the ball anyway.

Marshall would have to be a running back for that to happen.

TXBRONC
08-23-2009, 08:14 AM
I don't think Marshall can help. I don't think Orton can get him the ball anyway.

On deep passes I agree, because I'm not seeing anything that shows that Orton can get the ball deep with any kind of consistency. However, we are still better with him in the line up. The touchdown pass that Gaffney dropped I like our chances better if that was Marshall on the other end of that pass. Other receiver will benefit from him being in the line up.

LRtagger
08-23-2009, 09:32 AM
I'm willing to give McDaniel's and Orton their due but by midseason if games go like this every Sunday, patience will run thin.

I dont think anyone will deny (even the people who are VERY optimistic at this point) that if games continue to look like this through midseason that we will all be wanting some changes to happen.

But it is unrealistic to expect this team to look 100% polished after 2 preseason games. I mean, training camp just ended and people are expecting a super bowl caliber team already.

I am encouraged that the team as a whole looked better against a better team than they did last week.

I really hope McKinley can get his act together because I really want him to make the team.

LRtagger
08-23-2009, 09:34 AM
It was just a couple years ago that Giants fans were clamoring to have Eli benched and Coughlin fired.

broncofaninfla
08-23-2009, 09:39 AM
Gaffney showed us a sign of things to come by dropping a sure TD. For those who aren't familiar with him, he isn't in NE anymore for a reason. If Denver trades Marshal, I sure hope we get a quality WR in return because right now we only have two stud WR's on our roster, Royal and Stokely and for this offensive scheme we'll need more.

MasterShake
08-23-2009, 10:02 AM
It's Preseason folks!

I saw a lot of positives and negatives. But it is meaningless.

Teams take this time to find out what they need to work on and try to get them fixed before the season starts.

I was actually quite pleased with the 1st teamers (up until the left handed int). The offense looked pretty good. Timing is a concern.

Defense didn't look half bad either.

Again, a lot of new schemes to learn. And a lot of players that need to "gel" before they get great together.

This season was a wash before it even started. But now, I am a little optimistic after watching last night. Not for a playoff run but for a development season. It's actually going to be fun watching this team grow.

I was really happy with the first quarter. If we can be a fast start team, maybe we can suffocate the clock and get a few cheap wins this season. :lol:

One play that really impressed me last night was D.J. Williams dropping his coverage when he realized he had a chance to sack Hasselbeck and he shot the lane and dropped him on his back. That was probably my favorite play last night besides Eddies 29 yd run and the nice fade pass TD to Stockley.

Northman
08-23-2009, 10:07 AM
For the record, left-handed INTs have NOTHING to do with learning a new system.

Champ Bailey being burned on a simple rollout has NOTHING to do with learning a new system.

Poor tackling and fumbles have NOTHING to do with a new system.

These are the fundamentals. And Mickey's team is failing miserably in that area.


All very true.

Not too mention, this isnt a rookie Qb who will take 3 years to learn how to play the position. Orton is a seasoned vet and i do expect a lot more than what im seeing out there right from him. Its still early, but so far its not looking that promising.

Nomad
08-23-2009, 10:09 AM
I dont think anyone will deny (even the people who are VERY optimistic at this point) that if games continue to look like this through midseason that we will all be wanting some changes to happen.

But it is unrealistic to expect this team to look 100% polished after 2 preseason games. I mean, training camp just ended and people are expecting a super bowl caliber team already.

I am encouraged that the team as a whole looked better against a better team than they did last week.

I really hope McKinley can get his act together because I really want him to make the team.

I never expected them to look 100% polished and SB bound. I just don't see 'fire' or 'heart' in this team and I haven't in the past either.

Northman
08-23-2009, 10:15 AM
My only counter is this. The new England system of controlled short passing only works because Tom Brady is a serious legit threat to hit the deep ball, at any time, from anywhere. That keeps DB's on their heels and creates space for underneath stuff. If Orton cannot start hitting intermediate to long passes then we will very rarely break 20 points, and that won't win us games with this defense. As such, I have seen zero cause for optimism, because I don't think he can do it.

^^This

claymore
08-23-2009, 10:16 AM
I dont think anyone will deny (even the people who are VERY optimistic at this point) that if games continue to look like this through midseason that we will all be wanting some changes to happen.

But it is unrealistic to expect this team to look 100% polished after 2 preseason games. I mean, training camp just ended and people are expecting a super bowl caliber team already.

I am encouraged that the team as a whole looked better against a better team than they did last week.

I really hope McKinley can get his act together because I really want him to make the team.

Rookies coming into the league have far out performed Orton this year, and they have had less time to adapt.

Northman
08-23-2009, 10:23 AM
I agree your take Northman, but I believe this team has been lost for a few years now even with wonder/whining boy, Cutler and mastermind Shanny and defense must of left with Al Wilson because I haven't seen any in the last few years as well. As many have said, this is new team but you know they all are pro football players and I would have expected better even though it's preseason. I'm willing to give McDaniel's and Orton their due but by midseason if games go like this every Sunday, patience will run thin.


Chances are this team will not gel until about midseason. Like i said, i expect a better record than 8-8. Not because i want to have over expectations but because i felt that Shanahan was on the right move to fix the sinking ship and was starting to get the pieces back in there. But, i also know he was overdue to be removed so i understand Bowlen's concerns. But, now you bring in another guy who wanted to do things his way. He handled the Cutler issue in a poor manner and then the crybaby whined his way out of town in the process. But you cant excuse him for his part in the fiasco and when you have a offense that at LEAST has the capability to stretch the field im not sure it was a grand idea to piss off the QB in the process. But, like any coach he has his ideas on how he wants to win and thats what i expect. You want to tinker and bring in your own toys? Ok, thats fine but we better see dividends and fast. Im not sure what Bowlen's expectations are this year but i know what mine are. Call it unfair or whatever but im not the one who went and disassembled what was a pretty strong offense to begin with. There's no one to blame but the head coach at this point. Its only the preseason so im still having hope that we get much better but i was pretty disappointed in the team overall compared to last week. There were some good signs but more bad signs this week and as a team you shouldnt be regressing at this point.

claymore
08-23-2009, 10:26 AM
Chances are this team will not gel until about midseason. Like i said, i expect a better record than 8-8. Not because i want to have over expectations but because i felt that Shanahan was on the right move to fix the sinking ship and was starting to get the pieces back in there. But, i also know he was overdue to be removed so i understand Bowlen's concerns. But, now you bring in another guy who wanted to do things his way. He handled the Cutler issue in a poor manner and then the crybaby whined his way out of town in the process. But you cant excuse him for his part in the fiasco and when you have a offense that at LEAST has the capability to stretch the field im not sure it was a grand idea to piss off the QB in the process. But, like any coach he has his ideas on how he wants to win and thats what i expect. You want to tinker and bring in your own toys? Ok, thats fine but we better see dividends and fast. Im not sure what Bowlen's expectations are this year but i know what mine are. Call it unfair or whatever but im not the one who went and disassembled what was a pretty strong offense to begin with. There's no one to blame but the head coach at this point. Its only the preseason so im still having hope that we get much better but i was pretty disappointed in the team overall compared to last week. There were some good signs but more bad signs this week and as a team you shouldnt be regressing at this point.
Anything less than 9 wins and we know the JMCD experience was a failure.

Northman
08-23-2009, 10:27 AM
Anything less than 9 wins and we know the JMCD experience was a failure.

Ive said that from day one and i still stand by it. Chances are he will get 3 years to do his thing but my expectations are higher. :salute:

claymore
08-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Ive said that from day one and i still stand by it. Chances are he will get 3 years to do his thing but my expectations are higher. :salute:

I agree 100%. I also believe that if you fail on a franchise QB (on draft day) they say it set's you back ten years.

What does it set you back if you have a very young very good QB, you trade him, and you fail in replacing him?

Im thinking 15 years. 3 years to fire JMCD, 2-6 years in finding another decent coach, and up to ten years to luck into a quality QB.

With Bowlens age Im scared we will be the LA Broncos in 15 years.

Northman
08-23-2009, 10:35 AM
I agree 100%. I also believe that if you fail on a franchise QB (on draft day) they say it set's you back ten years.

What does it set you back if you have a very young very good QB, you trade him, and you fail in replacing him?

Im thinking 15 years. 3 years to fire JMCD, 2-6 years in finding another decent coach, and up to ten years to luck into a quality QB.

With Bowlens age Im scared we will be the LA Broncos in 15 years.


Anything is possible. If Bowlen has lost it then he has truly fallen into Al Davis territory. Hopefully, thats not the case. My gut feeling is he wont tolerate losing for very long. And with the history of Bill disciples not getting it done i believe McD is on a short leash. But, im all for McD making me into a liar. Bring it on.

Krugan
08-23-2009, 10:47 AM
I dont see much for positives, and where is the blow up on the left handed INT? Plummer was destroyed for that sort of bone head move.

Week 2 preseason or not, there is no exscuse for burning 3 time outs, again, because your out of position or failing to make adjustments when lining up. Coaching and the "QB" of the D need to be lined up and whipped thirty times with a wet noddle, because yea, thats what they are worth at this point.

What was with 3 pass calls from the 1 1/2 yard line? Preseason or not, score the damn points and give your team something to build on. Confidence goes miles. And for the love of Pete, throw the damn ball away. You cant tell me 18 yards and the end of the 2nd quater wouldnt have made a difference. Had Orton not lefty lumped that pass, Seattle starts at the 2 and the odds of them scoring on a 2 minute drive go down by leaps and bounds. Game changer to say the least.

Awful awful mess we see, and im not looking for it to be much better. Ill stop now and reserve my the rest of my impressions for 2 more weeks. Ill give them a pass for a month of games before I lose the last screw that is hanging loose.

nbenallo33
08-23-2009, 10:48 AM
this is gonna be a long season

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 11:09 AM
I have not seen such naysaying and doom and gloom before.

I said it long before that this team is in rebuild mode.

Now every comment I have heard on the national sports programs this AM has been that Orton played very well.

But on here the sky is falling.

Maybe it is somewhere in the middle. Afterall the entire team from HC to the77 th player on the field last night are trying to get on the same page of an incredibily intense playbook.

For those that expected perfection in game 2 your expectations might be a tad high.

Northman
08-23-2009, 11:15 AM
I have not seen such naysaying and doom and gloom before.

I said it long before that this team is in rebuild mode.

Now every comment I have heard on the national sports programs this AM has been that Orton played very well.

But on here the sky is falling.

Maybe it is somewhere in the middle. Afterall the entire team from HC to the77 th player on the field last night are trying to get on the same page of an incredibily intense playbook.

For those that expected perfection in game 2 your expectations might be a tad high.


Actually, i stated that Orton played well between the 20's. Much better than last week. But we did well last year between the 20's and the word on the street was that Orton was better around the goalline. In the first 2 games we havent seen it. And Orton isnt a rookie so there has to be some concern there. Im sure chemistry has some to do with it but as BM pointed out a left handed pass is just desperation and not really a chemistry thing. It was just a poor decision from a guy who has been in the league long enough not too do that. I gave Plummer a rash of shit for doing the same kind of thing. Unfortuantely, unlike Jake, Orton doesnt have the luxury of having a decent defense to back him up for his shortcomings. Did i expect perfection in the second preseason game? No, but i did expect a better showing than they gave. All the things that we complained about last year reared its ugly head last night. Poor tackling, bad ST's, poor redzone efficiency, poor playcalling. Thats not a progression from what i saw last week.

frauschieze
08-23-2009, 11:27 AM
I have not seen such naysaying and doom and gloom before.

You expected full rebuild mode but McD expects to win now. Couple that with the realization that under Shanahan, we were pretty much guaranteed to at least come out even in the win loss column, and people's expectations are still high.

Seeing performances like last night's though....it's disheartening. I am spoiled as a Broncos fan and I'm not used to losing. Looking forward to a season full of all those bad things displayed last night isn't exactly my cup of tea.

Nomad
08-23-2009, 11:31 AM
Chances are this team will not gel until about midseason. Like i said, i expect a better record than 8-8. Not because i want to have over expectations but because i felt that Shanahan was on the right move to fix the sinking ship and was starting to get the pieces back in there. But, i also know he was overdue to be removed so i understand Bowlen's concerns. But, now you bring in another guy who wanted to do things his way. He handled the Cutler issue in a poor manner and then the crybaby whined his way out of town in the process. But you cant excuse him for his part in the fiasco and when you have a offense that at LEAST has the capability to stretch the field im not sure it was a grand idea to piss off the QB in the process. But, like any coach he has his ideas on how he wants to win and thats what i expect. You want to tinker and bring in your own toys? Ok, thats fine but we better see dividends and fast. Im not sure what Bowlen's expectations are this year but i know what mine are. Call it unfair or whatever but im not the one who went and disassembled what was a pretty strong offense to begin with. There's no one to blame but the head coach at this point. Its only the preseason so im still having hope that we get much better but i was pretty disappointed in the team overall compared to last week. There were some good signs but more bad signs this week and as a team you shouldnt be regressing at this point.


The blame goes on everyone at Dove Valley...owner, coaches and players. Today's players are a bunch of whiners compared to years before and coaches use to be able to control their teams which seems is not the case anymore.

I'm not in the doom and gloom stage but was speaking in future tense regarding this game and the team getting better as the year goes on. Just saying, if they play like this every Sunday then patience will run thin regardless of rebuilding because I hold these coaches and players to a higher standard because this isn't a DII college program and they are PROs.

Northman
08-23-2009, 11:33 AM
You expected full rebuild mode but McD expects to win now.


Yea, someone else pointed this out. Shanahan was cut loose because Bowlen was tired of losing. I have not heard ANYWHERE where Bowlen and McD have said they are rebuilding. I have not heard Bowlen say "well, we are going to have a down year but be in the championhip in 2010". I truly believe that Bowlen expects McD to come out of the gates and start winning. Considering what has transpired this offseason i dont see that happening. I definitely liked our chances when our offense was still the way it was last year. McD did what he did for whatever reasons and that tells me he knows what he is doing. And by the same token tells me that he is expecting to win, not rebuild. 9-7 or bust.

Northman
08-23-2009, 11:37 AM
The blame goes on everyone at Dove Valley...owner, coaches and players. Today's players are a bunch of whiners compared to years before and coaches use to be able to control their teams which seems is not the case anymore.

I'm not in the doom and gloom stage but was speaking in future tense regarding this game and the team getting better as the year goes on. Just saying, if they play like this every Sunday then patience will run thin regardless of rebuilding because I hold these coaches and players to a higher standard because this isn't a DII college program and they are PROs.

Definitely. And considering i saw a lot of the same mistakes we've been making the last couple of years is only going to make it much more stressful to watch. learning how to tackle is one of the first fundamentals of playing football. Its not often that i come down on Bailey but when he overpursued the backside of that fake run last night i was so angry. Its his job to contain and look out for the bootleg and he got punked in a major way for a guy who wants to win a SB so badly. Mistakes happen, but when your a veteran DB and a supposed leader on the team you need to play your best all the time and set an example. Those guys just laid a egg out there in ever facet of the game. So disappointed. But, they can make up for it by beating the Bears. :D

Tned
08-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Yea, someone else pointed this out. Shanahan was cut loose because Bowlen was tired of losing. I have not heard ANYWHERE where Bowlen and McD have said they are rebuilding. I have not heard Bowlen say "well, we are going to have a down year but be in the championhip in 2010". I truly believe that Bowlen expects McD to come out of the gates and start winning. Considering what has transpired this offseason i dont see that happening. I definitely liked our chances when our offense was still the way it was last year. McD did what he did for whatever reasons and that tells me he knows what he is doing. And by the same token tells me that he is expecting to win, not rebuild. 9-7 or bust.

The only thing Bowlen said was something along the lines of: I want to get back to the Super Bowl, but I realized we aren't close to getting there -- or something like that.

Northman
08-23-2009, 12:07 PM
The only thing Bowlen said was something along the lines of: I want to get back to the Super Bowl, but I realized we aren't close to getting there -- or something like that.

I also believe at some point that he was kind of shocked that McD was toying with the idea to trade Jay and made some comment like "Well, he must know what he is doing" or something to that effect. Either way, both these guys have made their bed and must now lie in it.

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 12:14 PM
nobody wanted to realize how lousy the personnel was beyond the starters on at QB, OLINE, TE and WR.. over the past few years..

the D was a total shambles and RB a hodgepodge of third stringers to telephone salesmen..

well the house cleaning is just about complete and I do not see how anyone does not see it as rebuilding..

the only thing that is the same on D is Champ at his spot.. ever thing/one else is new to their position..

excepting the hybrid ZBS we will be running, the offense is almost new from the ground up...

come on folks think about how much change there has been this past 6 months..

again everyone I have heard talk this morning on Sports radio on national programs have been raving about Orton's improvement this week.. do you suppose that Y'all might be a tad overly critical..

Tned
08-23-2009, 12:19 PM
I also believe at some point that he was kind of shocked that McD was toying with the idea to trade Jay and made some comment like "Well, he must know what he is doing" or something to that effect. Either way, both these guys have made their bed and must now lie in it.

Yea, I that shock was why Bowlen willingly told a report that his new coach had made "rookie mistakes" shortly after the draft. Now, we don't know if he was talking about Cutler or the moves in the draft, but it was 'mistakes', which leads one to believe that there was more than one move that Bowlen felt should have been handled differently.

Tned
08-23-2009, 12:23 PM
nobody wanted to realize how lousy the personnel was beyond the starters on at QB, OLINE, TE and WR.. over the past few years..

the D was a total shambles and RB a hodgepodge of third stringers to telephone salesmen..

well the house cleaning is just about complete and I do not see how anyone does not see it as rebuilding..

the only thing that is the same on D is Champ at his spot.. ever thing/one else is new to their position..

excepting the hybrid ZBS we will be running, the offense is almost new from the ground up...

come on folks think about how much change there has been this past 6 months..

again everyone I have heard talk this morning on Sports radio on national programs have been raving about Orton's improvement this week.. do you suppose that Y'all might be a tad overly critical..

Nobody is saying the players were all great last year, and everyone expected the defense to be blown up and rebuilt. Prior to the hiring of McDaniels, most people expected the offense to be 'refined', they didn't expect to have the pro-bowl QB traded away, the highly effective ZBS all but thrown out, and a completly new offensive scheme brought in.

We may be rebuilding the entire team, but the fact is that only the defense needed to be rebuilt. So, since McDaniels decided to rebuild the entire team, he has to produce as if he had jut rebuilt the defense. He doesn't get a pass for trading away Cutler, exiling Marshall and dumping the ZBS system.

Dean
08-23-2009, 12:32 PM
nobody wanted to realize how lousy the personnel was beyond the starters on at QB, OLINE, TE and WR.. over the past few years..

In other words, it appears that you agree that the offense was not in need of a complete overhaul and alienation of said QB and best WR.:rolleyes:


the D was a total shambles and RB a hodgepodge of third stringers to telephone salesmen..

Yes, the worst part of the D was the D-line. What did we do about it? Why was Tatum playing? Oh, I remember. We had ununprecedented series of season injuries at RB.


well the house cleaning is just about complete and I do not see how anyone does not see it as rebuilding..

Rebuilding is great for those things that were broken. Normally people don't rebuild those things that weren't broke.


the only thing that is the same on D is Champ at his spot.. ever thing/one else is new to their position..

excepting the hybrid ZBS we will be running, the offense is almost new from the ground up...

How much man on amn blocking have you seen so far? Was the ground up change needed? When the coaching change with the Steelers took place the defensive coach that they brought in did not change the strong defense that was already in place. . . and they won.


come on folks think about how much change there has been this past 6 months..

again everyone I have heard talk this morning on Sports radio on national programs have been raving about Orton's improvement this week.. do you suppose that Y'all might be a tad overly critical..

McKid stated that he is in win now mode. He even gave that spiel about never playing on or coaching a losing team. Why shouldn't we believe what the the coach says that he believes?

hotcarl
08-23-2009, 03:35 PM
just a reminder:

we are not going to be challenging for the superbowl this year. it sucks but we need to accept it.

this is a rebuilding year with a lot of turnover, new coaches, schemes, etc. we have not had one of these with shanahan because we were always "one player away". we were 24-24 over the last 3 seasons, its not like we have been some great team.

lets let this guy build his team and also get comfortable with being a head coach (it has been apperent that he hasnt figured it all out yet either)

see you in three years

Ravage!!!
08-23-2009, 04:41 PM
I know I'm going to sound like a pessimist.... but it seems our bronco fans were keeping track of the "should have" been INTs thrown by the former QB. Seems that Orton has a tendency (last week and this one) to throw the ball to defenders in the endzone. Their DB had the INT that fell from his hands (as he was looking already at the other endzone for his TD dance) that almost fell into our players hands. The next play was a good pass for a TD, but that "almost INT" very well could have ended another drive.

gobroncsnv
08-23-2009, 04:54 PM
By the same token, I guess Orton shouldn't have thrown the ball 6" over Gaffney's head, either...
That to me was like an error in baseball that extends an inning, and the pitcher goes on to allow another hit which drives in an unearned run.
Our receivers are going to need to work on making Orton look good, because not sure he has enough good plays in a row, at least at this point. The lefty pass is a bad idea that doesn't work. He seems to have a few good plays in him, but the guy on the other end of the pass has to do his work also.
Yet, we still haven't seen him as a Bronco throw a red zone int in a regular season game yet, as others have in years past...

Krugan
08-23-2009, 05:18 PM
I see alot of responses concering "rebuilding year". Regardless of that, we as fans, have more than enough reason to expect a decent product be put on the field.

We spend a crap load of money on the team we love, hours and hours of time following said team.

There is no point in arguing what we all know, or should know. the fact of the matter is we look lost, in most every pahse of the game. We have a serious lack of quality talent at several positions. We blew up the high side of this team, and are still trying to further that mess, and ignored the true issue by adding career backup's, over paid long snappers, sub par big men, and old secondary help.

If I wanted crap, ide by a clapper.

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 05:39 PM
By the same token, I guess Orton shouldn't have thrown the ball 6" over Gaffney's head, either...
That to me was like an error in baseball that extends an inning, and the pitcher goes on to allow another hit which drives in an unearned run.
Our receivers are going to need to work on making Orton look good, because not sure he has enough good plays in a row, at least at this point. The lefty pass is a bad idea that doesn't work. He seems to have a few good plays in him, but the guy on the other end of the pass has to do his work also.
Yet, we still haven't seen him as a Bronco throw a red zone int in a regular season game yet, as others have in years past...



guess you did not notice that Gaffney had both hands on the ball.. it was not like he barely grazed the tips of his fingers hit the guy square in the hands both of them..

Must have had to much zip on it for him the hang on..

BTW KO needed to throw it over the defenders between him and the WR..

I guess the TD last night does not count but it was a nice one.. and since he has not played in a regular season game yet this is the best I can do as IIRC it was indeed against their first team D..

3-3-SEA 3 (6:01) (Shotgun) 8-K.Orton pass short right to 14-B.Stokely for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
5-M.Prater extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-1-B.Kern.
DEN 7 SEA 7 Plays: 12 Possession: 5:51

TXBRONC
08-23-2009, 05:52 PM
I dont think anyone will deny (even the people who are VERY optimistic at this point) that if games continue to look like this through midseason that we will all be wanting some changes to happen.

But it is unrealistic to expect this team to look 100% polished after 2 preseason games. I mean, training camp just ended and people are expecting a super bowl caliber team already.

I am encouraged that the team as a whole looked better against a better team than they did last week.

I really hope McKinley can get his act together because I really want him to make the team.

I agree with you that it's unrealistic to expect this offense to look polished after just two preseason games but should be able to have expectation that 6th year pro quarterback wont make the kind of mistake that Orton made on the goal line.

Ravage!!!
08-23-2009, 05:58 PM
I agree with you that it's unrealistic to expect this offense to look polished after just two preseason games but should be able to have expectation that 6th year pro quarterback wont make the kind of mistake that Orton made on the goal line.

There's a point that needs to be explained to some. Just because its a new system, doesn't mean Orton is a new QB. We should be expecting a 6 yr QB to be playing like a 6yr NFl QB, and not be expecting rookie type mistakes simply because he has a new coach.

Tned
08-23-2009, 06:08 PM
I agree with you that it's unrealistic to expect this offense to look polished after just two preseason games but should be able to have expectation that 6th year pro quarterback wont make the kind of mistake that Orton made on the goal line.

Look at it from another angle, this is the reason that before the first pre-season game, McDaniels said that the Broncos starters would play much more than other teams, and the Broncos would treat the preseason much different than most other teams.

He said that with all the new coaches, schemes and so much player turnover, they needed this time to get ready for the season. He is playing them this much, because he knows it will take time for them to gel and be competitive.

Will that happen by week 1? We will find out in 20 Days, 18 Hours, 49 Minutes, 07 Seconds, but at least we can see they are working their asses off to get ready.

Tned
08-23-2009, 06:10 PM
There's a point that needs to be explained to some. Just because its a new system, doesn't mean Orton is a new QB. We should be expecting a 6 yr QB to be playing like a 6yr NFl QB, and not be expecting rookie type mistakes simply because he has a new coach.

Not to take away from your point, because I know what you are saying, but just to clarify. I believe he is entering his 5th season.

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 06:11 PM
There's a point that needs to be explained to some. Just because its a new system, doesn't mean Orton is a new QB. We should be expecting a 6 yr QB to be playing like a 6yr NFl QB, and not be expecting rookie type mistakes simply because he has a new coach.


perhaps we are just a wee bit off in your time line 6 years ago he was playing @ Purdue..

Career Stats more
Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2008 Chicago Bears 15 15 272 465 58.5 2,972 6.4 18 12 27 160 79.6 24 49 2.0 3 6 5
2007 Chicago Bears 3 3 43 80 53.8 478 6.0 3 2 2 12 73.9 5 -1 -0.2 0 2 0
2006 Chicago Bears 0 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- -- -- --
2005 Chicago Bears 15 15 190 368 51.6 1,869 5.1 9 13 30 190 59.7 24 44 1.8 0 12 5
TOTAL 505 913 55.3 5,319 5.8 30 27 59 362 71.1 53 92 1.7 3 20 10




http://www.nfl.com/players/profile?id=00-0023541


actually has just three years playing time.. and only 33 starts over that time..

Mike
08-23-2009, 06:11 PM
Look at it from another angle, this is the reason that before the first pre-season game, McDaniels said that the Broncos starters would play much more than other teams, and the Broncos would treat the preseason much different than most other teams.

He said that with all the new coaches, schemes and so much player turnover, they needed this time to get ready for the season. He is playing them this much, because he knows it will take time for them to gel and be competitive.

Will that happen by week 1? We will find out in 20 Days, 18 Hours, 49 Minutes, 07 Seconds, but at least we can see they are working their asses off to get ready.

Well, from last night's performance, they need a lot more time than that. Outside of the 1st quarter everything from coaching to the waterboy looked lost.

I am not looking forward to next week. Maybe I will take a break from the internet for a while. ;)

Broncos Mtnman
08-23-2009, 06:15 PM
Not to take away from your point, because I know what you are saying, but just to clarify. I believe he is entering his 5th season.

But "essentially," he's just a third year QB. At least, that's what I was told last night.

:coffee:

Ravage!!!
08-23-2009, 06:16 PM
perhaps we are just a wee bit off in your time line 6 years ago he was playing @ Purdue..

Career Stats more
Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2008 Chicago Bears 15 15 272 465 58.5 2,972 6.4 18 12 27 160 79.6 24 49 2.0 3 6 5
2007 Chicago Bears 3 3 43 80 53.8 478 6.0 3 2 2 12 73.9 5 -1 -0.2 0 2 0
2006 Chicago Bears 0 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- -- -- --
2005 Chicago Bears 15 15 190 368 51.6 1,869 5.1 9 13 30 190 59.7 24 44 1.8 0 12 5
TOTAL 505 913 55.3 5,319 5.8 30 27 59 362 71.1 53 92 1.7 3 20 10




http://www.nfl.com/players/profile?id=00-0023541


actually has just three years playing time.. and only 33 starts over that time..

My bad. He's a fifth year QB instead of a 6th year QB. Replace the 6 with a 5 in my above statement, and then re-apply.

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 06:20 PM
My bad. He's a fifth year QB instead of a 6th year QB. Replace the 6 with a 5 in my above statement, and then re-apply.



who has had 33 starts in 3 years during that 4 year experience time frame,
who is learning a completely new system along with 9 other guys out the and Gaffney..

Might not want to expect perfection from him next week as many say it takes up wards of three years to learn a new system..


think y'all need to calm down and go with the flow..

Ravage!!!
08-23-2009, 06:22 PM
who has had 33 starts in 3 years during that 4 year experience time frame,
who is learning a completely new system along with 9 other guys out the and Gaffney..

Might not want to expect perfection from him next week as many say it takes up wards of three years to learn a new system..


think y'all need to calm down and go with the flow..

Sorry. I'm not buying the 33 starts as an excuse when he got beat out for the starting job by Brian Griese and Rex Grossman.

As I stated. I'm not expecting perfection. But you do expect a FIFTH year QB not to make rookies type mistakes. New system or not.

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 06:24 PM
Sorry. I'm not buying the 33 starts as an excuse when he got beat out for the starting job by Brian Griese and Rex Grossman.

As I stated. I'm not expecting perfection. But you do expect a FIFTH year QB not to make rookies type mistakes. New system or not.


if you say so.. have a nice day.. might want to read this..


post 32

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49989&page=3

Tned
08-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, from last night's performance, they need a lot more time than that. Outside of the 1st quarter everything from coaching to the waterboy looked lost.

I am not looking forward to next week. Maybe I will take a break from the internet for a while. ;)

While I would love to believe that we will appear to be the better team next week, I doubt it will happen. It's the third game of preseason, which means Cutler and the first team could easily play into if not through the third quarter.

It could be a bloody sight.

At best, I can be 'cautiously optimistic' about how we are going to do this season, because even if the moves made have been good, time is running out to prepare.

Tned
08-23-2009, 06:30 PM
But "essentially," he's just a third year QB. At least, that's what I was told last night.

:coffee:

Well, we all know that's BS, just like those that claimed that Cutler was 'essentially' a rookie in '07.

Essentially, is forum speak for "I am making an excuse for what I am afraid will be a failure."

Mike
08-23-2009, 06:33 PM
While I would love to believe that we will appear to be the better team next week, I doubt it will happen. It's the third game of preseason, which means Cutler and the first team could easily play into if not through the third quarter.

It could be a bloody sight.

At best, I can be 'cautiously optimistic' about how we are going to do this season, because even if the moves made have been good, time is running out to prepare.

I went into the season thinking 4-5 wins. My co-workers have my quote from back in April as 4-12. From what I have seen, I don't feel the need to adjust my prediction. There are some good pieces here to build on, but too much to overcome in one season. I expect it to be a long season this year.

Lonestar
08-23-2009, 06:37 PM
I went into the season thinking 4-5 wins. My co-workers have my quote from back in April as 4-12. From what I have seen, I don't feel the need to adjust my prediction. There are some good pieces here to build on, but too much to overcome in one season. I expect it to be a long season this year.

I have been thinking that since the schedule came out..

considering all the changes this team has seen in the past 9 months at this point I do not see the need to change it either..

Although before the last game I had my hopes up the learning curve would be shorter..

as long as they do not get blown out by wimpy teams and we look better each week I can live with 5-11.. no more trap games....

Ravage!!!
08-23-2009, 06:42 PM
Personally, I don't think there is any such thing as a 'trap game.' Every NFL team loses to teams they shouldn't. Thus, why there has only been ONE team in NFL history to go undefeated. Everyone has lost at least one game, and the game they lost, I promise you was to a team that was considered to be a lesser team.

Look at the Super Bowl in '07. The Giants weren't supposed to win that game. They were the lesser team. Can't tell me the Patriots weren't "pumped up" to win the Super Bowl.. and they were coached by the "greatest NFL mind and motivator." Yet they lost.

Every NFl team is capable of beating another. Thats the greatest thing about the NFL.. is the fact that you never really know what team is going to win week in and week out.

TXBRONC
08-23-2009, 06:43 PM
Look at it from another angle, this is the reason that before the first pre-season game, McDaniels said that the Broncos starters would play much more than other teams, and the Broncos would treat the preseason much different than most other teams.

He said that with all the new coaches, schemes and so much player turnover, they needed this time to get ready for the season. He is playing them this much, because he knows it will take time for them to gel and be competitive.

Will that happen by week 1? We will find out in 20 Days, 18 Hours, 49 Minutes, 07 Seconds, but at least we can see they are working their asses off to get ready.

I understand that and I also think that is a good approach to take but I don't think throwing the ball left hand has anything to do with learning the offense.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-23-2009, 06:58 PM
After watching the game, there were a few things that really torqued me:

The lefty INT. Shouldn't have happened, Gaffney should have caught the ball 2 plays earlier, but he didn't and Orton should've known better. It was 4th down on the 1 1/2 yard line. Throw it away, try to run it in (which probably would've worked), or eat the sack, either way Seattle gets the ball inside their own 5 instead of our 20.

Gaffney. I'm just not impressed with the guy. He looks exactly like what he is, a 3rd to 4th string WR. The fact that he's McD's boy and will probably start no matter what happens with Marshall, does not thrill me in the least.

Most of all though, the play calling was terrible. Don't give me the whole "vanilla offense" excuse because it's the preseason because it wasn't. That's our new offense. No power running, no stretching out the defense, just a bunch of hooks, curls, slants, and screens with a couple draw plays tossed in. 3 straight passes inside the 2 yd line when you have Peyton Hillis and Spencer Larsen to run it and lead block respectively, is just stupid. I understand you're basically scrimmaging during the preseason to see what will work with your players but seriously, if you can't pound the ball into the endzone in three tries from one yard out, just turn in your pads, now.

Besides just the play calling, I think the system stinks (or at least the players we're trying to use in it aren't what you need). We looked like a college team trying to run the spread offense without the proper personnel. Florida without Tebow if you will. If that's the idea of McDaniels' QB friendly offense with lots of short passes, screens and draws - we should've signed Vick. Someone who can improvise and scramble and can throw the short stuff around.



Other than that, it was a typical preseason game. I don't put too much stock in it, well other than our starting offense being shut down by Seattle's backups on two straight drives which was embarrasing...:tsk:

Tned
08-23-2009, 07:00 PM
I understand that and I also think that is a good approach to take but I don't think throwing the ball left hand has anything to do with learning the offense.

No, I don't either, but the real question is how many times in 33 starts (plus some preseason) has he thrown left handed passes? If he does it once every 3-4 years, I don't think we have much to worry about, if he does it every few games, then maybe we do.

Fact is, while it's good message board fodder, and something for beat writers to write about, what does it matter if he throws a left handed pick or a right handed pick? Same with Plummer. A lot was made of it, but why? He was trying to make a play. In both cases, if the pass was completed, the story would have been much different.


I went into the season thinking 4-5 wins. My co-workers have my quote from back in April as 4-12. From what I have seen, I don't feel the need to adjust my prediction. There are some good pieces here to build on, but too much to overcome in one season. I expect it to be a long season this year.

I can't remember if it was at half time or after the game, but I told her, "I think this is going to be a long season."

I am an eternal optimist with the teams I follow, but with the change to the team, questions at several positions, new offensive and defensive scheme, and then you throw in the brutal schedule, and it is hard to imagine this being a winning season. I hope it is, and my heart says it could be, but my brain says it is very unlikely.

dogfish
08-23-2009, 07:04 PM
I understand that and I also think that is a good approach to take but I don't think throwing the ball left hand has anything to do with learning the offense.


what, you mean that's not in mcdaniels' playbook?



:laugh:

TXBRONC
08-23-2009, 07:07 PM
what, you mean that's not in mcdaniels' playbook?



:laugh:

I'm only guessing but I wouldn't think it is? :lol:

gobroncsnv
08-23-2009, 08:30 PM
guess you did not notice that Gaffney had both hands on the ball.. it was not like he barely grazed the tips of his fingers hit the guy square in the hands both of them..

Must have had to much zip on it for him the hang on..

That was the whole point of my comment (6" (inches) over his head). It was a great pass! Our receivers are going to have to make extra good plays in order to get good play out of Orton. I don't know that he has the kind of consistency we'd like, so when he does throw a good one, they're gonna have to catch'em.

MOtorboat
08-23-2009, 08:44 PM
That was the whole point of my comment (6" (inches) over his head). It was a great pass! Our receivers are going to have to make extra good plays in order to get good play out of Orton. I don't know that he has the kind of consistency we'd like, so when he does throw a good one, they're gonna have to catch'em.

He had some pretty shitty receivers last year.

Just saying.

gobroncsnv
08-23-2009, 10:30 PM
I don't think Gaffney is gonna be all that bad... Just that we'll really need our receivers to step up and not turn into Edward Hammerhands when the ball gets there. But, you have to work this kind of stuff out in pre-season, that's what it's for.
Quite frankly, I don't really care if we have two 100 catch receivers. I'd rather have 5 60 catch receivers. Diversity and flexibility is the name of this offense, not super stars. Marshall needs to see that, or he'll see nothing except splinters in his butt this year. But each one HAS to do his part when the ball comes his way. Maybe Orton improves as he gets more familiarity with this thing, but until then, our receivers just have to stay GOLDEN.

TXBRONC
08-24-2009, 07:02 AM
I don't think Gaffney is gonna be all that bad... Just that we'll really need our receivers to step up and not turn into Edward Hammerhands when the ball gets there. But, you have to work this kind of stuff out in pre-season, that's what it's for.
Quite frankly, I don't really care if we have two 100 catch receivers. I'd rather have 5 60 catch receivers. Diversity and flexibility is the name of this offense, not super stars. Marshall needs to see that, or he'll see nothing except splinters in his butt this year. But each one HAS to do his part when the ball comes his way. Maybe Orton improves as he gets more familiarity with this thing, but until then, our receivers just have to stay GOLDEN.

Gaffney isn't the kind of receiver that's going to catch 60 passes per year. He is a 4th option receiver. Having quality receivers is better than just have a bunch of second tier receivers in my opinion. Certainly every teams role players but the better the talent the better our chances of success.

Traveler
08-24-2009, 08:14 AM
this is gonna be a long season

It's probably best if everyone views the team this way. We are rebuilding and it will take some time to get the required players for these new systems. Until we get a new franchise QB and better defensive linemen, it's gonna be rough for a couple of years.

Anyone expecting more than that is setting themselves up for a huge letdown. There are just too many missing pieces for this team to be successful this year or next.

Having said that, I believe McDaniels it putting the necessary foundation in place for us to compete and advance to the playoffs in 2011 and beyond.

Traveler
08-24-2009, 08:16 AM
No, I don't either, but the real question is how many times in 33 starts (plus some preseason) has he thrown left handed passes? If he does it once every 3-4 years, I don't think we have much to worry about, if he does it every few games, then maybe we do.

Fact is, while it's good message board fodder, and something for beat writers to write about, what does it matter if he throws a left handed pick or a right handed pick? Same with Plummer. A lot was made of it, but why? He was trying to make a play. In both cases, if the pass was completed, the story would have been much different.



I can't remember if it was at half time or after the game, but I told her, "I think this is going to be a long season."

I am an eternal optimist with the teams I follow, but with the change to the team, questions at several positions, new offensive and defensive scheme, and then you throw in the brutal schedule, and it is hard to imagine this being a winning season. I hope it is, and my heart says it could be, but my brain says it is very unlikely.

Keep that mindset and you'll be okay.

Traveler
08-24-2009, 08:22 AM
I know this board is divided into those that like or dislike McDaniels. My irritation comes from all the nicknames for McDaniels.

May I make a suggestion?

Whatever side you might be on, please stop with all the Doogie's, McDumbass, Lil Hoodie, etc... references. It takes away from the point(s) you are trying to convey.

Just sayin'!

TXBRONC
08-24-2009, 10:27 AM
I know this board is divided into those that like or dislike McDaniels. My irritation comes from all the nicknames for McDaniels.

May I make a suggestion?

Whatever side you might be on, please stop with all the Doogie's, McDumbass, Lil Hoodie, etc... references. It takes away from the point(s) you are trying to convey.

Just sayin'!

That should apply to the players as well.

Lonestar
08-24-2009, 12:30 PM
That should apply to the players as well.


your spot on here no players should call their new head coach names..

broncofaninfla
08-24-2009, 01:14 PM
I don't think Gaffney is gonna be all that bad... Just that we'll really need our receivers to step up and not turn into Edward Hammerhands when the ball gets there. But, you have to work this kind of stuff out in pre-season, that's what it's for.
Quite frankly, I don't really care if we have two 100 catch receivers. I'd rather have 5 60 catch receivers. Diversity and flexibility is the name of this offense, not super stars. Marshall needs to see that, or he'll see nothing except splinters in his butt this year. But each one HAS to do his part when the ball comes his way. Maybe Orton improves as he gets more familiarity with this thing, but until then, our receivers just have to stay GOLDEN.

Gaffney needs a Moss or Marshall type to be a vaible option. The drop in the endzone this past weekend is a prelude of things to come if he is a primary target for us.

Lonestar
08-24-2009, 01:21 PM
Gaffney needs a Moss or Marshall type to be a viable option. The drop in the end zone this past weekend is a prelude of things to come if he is a primary target for us.


he will not be primarily target in case you did not notice KO completed to 7 different receivers in the game.. and because JG had more only indicates he knows the Offense better at this point..


that said I would like to have marshall back if he can get his head on straight

claymore
08-24-2009, 01:33 PM
he will not be primarily target in case you did not notice KO completed to 7 different receivers in the game.. and because JG had more only indicates he knows the Offense better at this point..


that said I would like to have marshall back if he can get his head on straight

There are allot of stats to counter that one. I think Marshall is lost. I dont see how this can be repaired. I just hope we can get good value.

Tned
08-24-2009, 01:45 PM
There are allot of stats to counter that one. I think Marshall is lost. I dont see how this can be repaired. I just hope we can get good value.

If we have to trade him right now, coming off a hip surgery, exiled to the scout team, I can't believe that we will get good value.

claymore
08-24-2009, 01:59 PM
If we have to trade him right now, coming off a hip surgery, exiled to the scout team, I can't believe that we will get good value.

Well its simple then. Everyone loses. :D Screw him.

Tned
08-24-2009, 04:47 PM
Well its simple then. Everyone loses. :D Screw him.

Nah, that's that nose/spite face thing.

Make him play or hold out. If he truely isn't working to get ready, then fine him and suspend him.

If he does play, then play him, and then either get things sorted out and sign him to an extension, or high tender him and get a 1st and 3rd round pick when someone else signs him away as a RFA.