Another day, another brutal article on the post-career effects of playing football

[G_Money]

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/George-Visger/george-visger-damage-done


Visger remembers it like this: While playing for San Francisco in 1981, he began experiencing daily headaches. Nightly projectile vomiting. He would see bright balls of light. His hearing would cut in and out with every heartbeat. Later, he says, doctors told him hydrocephalus was to blame -- the lights, for instance, were the result of pressure on his optic nerve from his swollen brain -- but at the time, he says, a team doctor misdiagnosed him with high blood pressure.

Visger needed surgery. Instead, he was given pills.

One night after a game against the Chicago Bears, Visger and teammates Terry Tautolo and Scott Stauch went out drinking. Visger's head was pounding worse than usual. He went home to the apartment the three men shared. Started puking. Couldn't hear or see. Tautolo and Stauch returned after last call, kept going in and out of Visger's bedroom.
Dude, let us take you to the hospital.
Nah. Nah. I'm OK.

Around dawn, Visger's right arm began curling up to his armpit -- focal point paralysis. Hunched over a bowl, vomiting blood, he straightened it out with his left hand, then collapsed on his bed. I'm dying, he thought. If those guys come back, I'll let them take me to the hospital. But I won't ask.
Why not?
"I didn't want to be a freakin' p---y," Visger says.


Visger has a dream. Well, more like a nightmare. He used to have it every night. He would drive to the 49ers' practice facility. Kick in the door of the main meeting room. Grab former San Francisco coach Bill Walsh -- the same man, he says, who never came to see Visger in the hospital after his first brain surgery, 14 days in intensive care; the same son of a bitch, he says, who instead sent his secretary with the gift of a Sony Walkman -- by the throat. Slap the ever-living s--- out of him. Pummel the team doctor, too, that "freaking butcher." Then pound general manager John McVay for good measure, right there in front of the whole squad, Joe Montana and Randy Cross and the rest.
"Do you know what they did to me?" Visger would scream. "Have you seen what these guys did to me?"

How much of that is CTE is obviously up for debate. How much was caused by football really isn't. If the NFL covered up concussion evidence, they're in deep trouble. If helmet manufacturers can't solve the concussion issue caused by the hard, single-shell carapace the sport's in trouble from youth league all the way up, because lawsuits will destroy pre-college play to the point there will be no one left to play college football, let alone pro.

----

Full disclosure: I grew up a HUGE wrestling fan. When I was a kid I had my immune system destroyed by a rare illness and I caught every stupid virus that came along. So while I was laid up in bed for weeks at a time I watched Legends of World Class Championship Wrestling on ESPN at 2:00 every weekday. Kerry Von Erich, Cactus Jack (later known as Mankind or Mick Foley), the Freebirds...

I loved it. I got into WCW and later ECW, and preferred them over the WWF because the wrestling was more athletic, more difficult... more "real." Sure the match outcomes were staged but falling off a 15 foot cage and landing a suplex isn't at all fake. I had tapes from Japan of Black Tiger and Pegasus Kid, who were Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit under those ridiculous masks.

Eddie's nephew Chavo used to have a gimmick that required him to wear a T-Shirt that said, "Eddie Guerrero is my favorite wrestler." Well Eddie wasn't mine (though he was in the pantheon) - mine was the Canadian Crippler Chris Benoit. He was amazing technically. The tribute match he wrestled with Bret Hart after Owen died in an accident, falling into the ring off a zip line... it was tremendous.

Chris Benoit took a number of chairs to the face, broke his own neck, had who-knows-how-many concussions from his falling headbutt maneuver or other traumas from a lifetime of wrestling. His brain deteriorated to the point that he tied up and tortured his wife (whom he loved very much) then killed her. He spent the next day with his young son, watching TV, and then killed his son before hanging himself with his own gym equipment.

Chris was a spiritual and moral man (for all that his wife used to be with another wrestler when he was younger and he stole her from the dude - they'd been together for many many years at this point).

Wrestling is a carnie activity, not like football, but they both avoided steroid testing for years, had slimy doctors shoving pills down the throats of their participants with no questions asked, and generally built the reputations of their enterprises on having the biggest, fastest, strongest athletes putting on the greatest show on earth, or at least under the big top.

Football may be going the way of pro wrestling for me. I haven't watched a match since the deaths of Eddie Guerrero ("heart failure" from a previous history of drug abuse) and Chris Benoit. I can't do it. Knowing how much is sacrificed, how many wrestlers die at early ages, how few "old wrestlers" there are, especially old healthy wrestlers... I can't watch something that demolishes its participants and their families like that.

The brain trauma that's being revealed in football is similarly horrifying. Players may not all be dying earlier, but having one's sense of self strangled in the dark night by night is no picnic. That description of what Visger's family goes through with him, with the mood swings and the forgetfulness and the danger he is to himself and others just by trying to continue to live his life as if he is not permanently handicapped, is too similar to the wrestling horror stories.

The more players that commit suicide, the more that lose their minds before even their brutalized bodies give out, the harder it is for me to ignore the toll that the show I'm paying to watch is taking on them.

The NFL needs to get this resolved. Rules turning it into flag-football or arena ball are already being implemented, but I still don't think that's the ultimate solution, since none of that helps the linemen who get concussed every game and every practice without the glamor of the over-the-middle hit to display their damage. I've been yelling about helmets for years now but it seems that no one wants to fix the protective device that is failing to protect all these players from damaging their brain-pans. And the longer we go without a fix, the harder it is for me to watch the next generation of players continue to demolish themselves and their families for my entertainment.

Still looking forward to next season, but every year it gets harder to be as naively thrilled at the prospect of hundreds of players murdering their own futures for my cheap thrills. Fingers crossed that we get this tended to ASAP.

~G

[BroncoWave]

Great post G. It's refreshing to see a take on this subject other than "Sorry, these guys choose to play this game and make millions of bucks, so if they get concussions and die young so be it. You gotta be a man to play football!" The macho attitude from meathead fans on this topic is plan ridiculous and out of touch with reality.

While the brutal, hard hitting game we all grew up with may be more entertaining, it's just not sustainable. Some fans REALLY need to take a step back and ask themselves why they care so much more about their own personal entertainment than the lives of the thousands of people who play football and the families they leave behind when they die young. We really have our priorities out of whack if we thing being entertained by a football game is more important.

[Northman]

Oh brother.

[BeefStew25]

I think tonight we all need to look in the mirror. Starting with BTB.

[DenBronx]

Listen, you think the NFL is the only dangerous job??? NFL players get paid 10x as much as Cops. Give me a break about fans wanting personal entertainment over valuing someones safety. The NFL is way more safe then it was back then.

And it's extremely ironic that most millionaire althetes that retire are bankrupt within 5 years. Most of these players seeking a lawsuit are the ones out of money already.

[BroncoWave]

As the only person on this forum who has ever actually worked for an NFL team, and also having spent four years working in college sports, I guess I have a different perspective since I've actually met and become friends with quite a few athletes. I see more than what most people just see on the TV. Mock me all you want but NFL players are real people with real lives. Just because they make millions doesn't change that.

[BeefStew25]

Good point. You are the only one here that has worked for a professional team.

[DenBronx]

As the only person on this forum who has ever actually worked for an NFL team, and also having spent four years working in college sports, I guess I have a different perspective since I've actually met and become friends with quite a few athletes. I see more than what most people just see on the TV. Mock me all you want but NFL players are real people with real lives. Just because they make millions doesn't change that.

I played semi pro football for 3 years. I played free and took some serious shots on the field many times. I walked off the field with my ears still ringing and bloodied up. That includes games and practices, I got hit just as hard during practice. So, don't think for a minute that just because you worked in house for a team that people don't understand the game or know the dangers of the game. Of course we care about the players safety and I think the changes that the NFL have made in recent years are for the better.

But when you sign on the dotted line you know what the possibilities are. These guys have medical insurance, they have life insurance to protect their familes and they get paid a kings ransom. I don't think the NFL is done making the rules safer either. The next move should make the owners be responsible for field conditions.

[BroncoWave]

Good point. You are the only one here that has worked for a professional team.

Even past that it's not only about the NFL. What about college players who have no shot to ever go pro but playing football is their only way to pay for college? Or high school players who play simply for the love of the game? Do they not deserve a safe playing environment?

The NFL players who make millions are only the tip of the iceberg for this issue.

[BroncoWave]

I played semi pro football for 3 years. I played free and took some serious shots on the field many times. I walked off the field with my ears still ringing and bloodied up. That includes games and practices, I got hit just as hard during practice. So, don't think for a minute that just because you worked in house for a team that people don't understand the game or know the dangers of the game. Of course we care about the players safety and I think the changes that the NFL have made in recent years are for the better.

But when you sign on the dotted line you know what the possibilities are. These guys have medical insurance, they have life insurance to protect their familes and they get paid a kings ransom. I don't think the NFL is done making the rules safer either. The next move should make the owners be responsible for field conditions.

Definitely agree with the last part. Lots of injuries could be avoided with safer playing fields. The field in that Seahawks-Redskins playoff game was a joke. I think you should lose your right to host a playoff game if your field doesn't meet certain specifications.

[BroncoJoe]

Let's all stop watching football so these poor individuals can move on with life.

[Northman]

I think i should go back and sue my high school. I feel aches and pains and i think it was due to when i played football for my high school team. I need to get in on this.

[DenBronx]

It's funny because every Thanksgiving my friends have this game called the Turkey Bowl. It's 11 on 11 without pads and full speed tackling. This game has been going on since the 90's. Every year some gets injured, legs broken, noses broken, teeth knocked out, concusions ect. And they play free with nothing but pride on the line.

[BroncoWave]

Mark Schlereth was right. Fans are stupid.

[Mike]

As the only person on this forum who has ever actually worked for an NFL team, and also having spent four years working in college sports, I guess I have a different perspective since I've actually met and become friends with quite a few athletes. I see more than what most people just see on the TV. Mock me all you want but NFL players are real people with real lives. Just because they make millions doesn't change that.

Yeah, you're just better than everyone else.

[Northman]

Mark Schlereth was right. Fans are stupid.

Clearly he was only addressing you.

[Northman]

Yeah, you're just better than everyone else.

Careful Mike, we dont want BTB to start playing the victim card again.

[DenBronx]

Without blinking an eye I would trade careers with these players if I could. I would take the risk, in a heartbeat. And I would never want to sue the NFL for something I signed up for.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, you're just better than everyone else.

Not saying that. Just saying your perspective changes when you know a guy who has been laying in a hospital bed for the last 6 months because he is paralyzed from playing college football. I think anyone who has no problem with the dangers of football and doesn't think further safety measures are necessary for no other reason than they don't want a form of entertainment for them to be less entertaining has their priorities way out of whack.

[Northman]

Without blinking an eye I would trade careers with these players if I could. I would take the risk, in a heartbeat. And I would never want to sue the NFL for something I signed up for.

You and me both. I would even take the league minimum compared to what some of these guys make. Its not anyone's fault but their own if they blow through their money and dont prepare for the future.

[DenBronx]

What about the dangers in MMA?

The stats of serious dangers are much much much lower in sports like MMA and Football versus Cops, Firefighters and even car accidents. How many people die from car crashes? Yet people still take the risk of driving their car to work in the morning. Lifes one big gamble yet their are risks worth taking.

[BroncoWave]

Once again, everyone is comically missing the point. The welfare of NFL players are only the tip of the iceberg. Everyone seems to forget the millions of high school and college athletes who play for only the love of the game or so they can afford college. Those are the people who will stop playing football eventually and diminish the talent pool going into the NFL in future generations. If you think the is less entertaining with these new safety rules, just wait until 20-30 years from now when the talent level shrinks because parents are pushing their kids toward safer sports.

[DenBronx]

You and me both. I would even take the league minimum compared to what some of these guys make. Its not anyone's fault but their own if they blow through their money and dont prepare for the future.

Give me just 5 years of making the league minimum. I will store away all the cash and still live the way I am currently living. These dummys don't know how to manage their money. How's life working out for T.O. and all of those child support checks?? Keep your willy in your pants and your money in the bank.

[G_Money]

It's not about it being a dangerous job. It's about the dangers of the job being unjustifiable, especially since many of those being injured are not actually working, they're kids getting concussed in YAL or Pee Wee football, or on a JV team, or in Division II college ball.

If the danger is having a busted leg, well those heal. If it's getting early arthritis, well lots of pursuits can promise that and people can choose their risks accordingly.

If the danger is that asbestos insulation will rip up your lungs until you die a horrible, gasping early death, and no one told you that was a risk (and worse, hid that risk from you)... then it's a huge problem.

If football concussions = asbestos health risks, then no youth league will be able to afford to field a team, just like no school can afford to insulate with asbestos. They'll find alternatives that neither carry huge premiums nor render themselves uninsurable against lawsuits.

Could pro football afford to carry on despite lawsuits, high premiums for insurance, dedicated funds for the injured, etc? Absolutely. But without a base of players to draw from because no one can play football due to its future uninsurability, how would there even be a pro league?

The reason the NFL has to fix this now is to keep the pipeline of talent flowing and reducing the risk to players at all levels. And it has to be the NFL because they drive equipment manufacture and help define how the "real" game is supposed to be played. If that's with rules then fine. If it's with equipment, even better. But now that there's a test that can be run on living sufferers of cognitive disruption to determine if they have CTE and how many participants of football have it compared to a non-football sample, there is going to be real-world data about just what kind of damage is being done by playing all kinds of sports.

And if you think that won't change the minds of parents, insurers, lawyers, equipment manufacturers and rules committees across the 50 states, you're not paying attention. If football is going to continue to be the hard-hitting, helmeted sport that we have been watching, then some things are going to have to change because the damage done by playing football this way will finally be able to be tallied.

And my guess is that the damage being done with current rules and equipment will have a real-dollar cost that's too high to sustain the game across all levels. We'll find out soon enough.

~G

[BroncoWave]

What about the dangers in MMA?

The stats of serious dangers are much much much lower in sports like MMA and Football versus Cops, Firefighters and even car accidents. How many people die from car crashes? Yet people still take the risk of driving their car to work in the morning. Lifes one big gamble yet their are risks worth taking.

Car companies work to make their cars as safe as possible. To compare that to this debate is laughable.

[DenBronx]

Once again, everyone is comically missing the point. The welfare of NFL players are only the tip of the iceberg. Everyone seems to forget the millions of high school and college athletes who play for only the love of the game or so they can afford college. Those are the people who will stop playing football eventually and diminish the talent pool going into the NFL in future generations. If you think the is less entertaining with these new safety rules, just wait until 20-30 years from now when the talent level shrinks because parents are pushing their kids toward safer sports.

I don't buy it. Football is Americas sport. There will always be some kid growing up dreaming of being an NFL star. If I had a son, I would be ok with him playing football if that is what he wanted to do.

[Northman]

Once again, everyone is comically missing the point. The welfare of NFL players are only the tip of the iceberg. Everyone seems to forget the millions of high school and college athletes who play for only the love of the game or so they can afford college. Those are the people who will stop playing football eventually and diminish the talent pool going into the NFL in future generations. If you think the is less entertaining with these new safety rules, just wait until 20-30 years from now when the talent level shrinks because parents are pushing their kids toward safer sports.


If thats the case so be it. If they want true safety make it flag football. You can get hurt on ANY play when it comes to sports. Ive seen guys just running with the ball and pull up because they hurt something. If they go to flag football ill just watch something else. Ill understand if they want to keep it safe but i wont pay for merch, go to games, watch it on tv if they want to go that route.

[DenBronx]

Car companies work to make their cars as safe as possible. To compare that to this debate is laughable.

And you don't think the NFL is trying???

[BroncoWave]

It's not about it being a dangerous job. It's about the dangers of the job being unjustifiable, especially since many of those being injured are not actually working, they're kids getting concussed in YAL or Pee Wee football, or on a JV team, or in Division II college ball.

If the danger is having a busted leg, well those heal. If it's getting early arthritis, well lots of pursuits can promise that and people can choose their risks accordingly.

If the danger is that asbestos insulation will rip up your lungs until you die a horrible, gasping early death, and no one told you that was a risk (and worse, hid that risk from you)... then it's a huge problem.

If football concussions = asbestos health risks, then no youth league will be able to afford to field a team, just like no school can afford to insulate with asbestos. They'll find alternatives that neither carry huge premiums nor render themselves uninsurable against lawsuits.

Could pro football afford to carry on despite lawsuits, high premiums for insurance, dedicated funds for the injured, etc? Absolutely. But without a base of players to draw from because no one can play football due to its future uninsurability, how would there even be a pro league?

The reason the NFL has to fix this now is to keep the pipeline of talent flowing and reducing the risk to players at all levels. And it has to be the NFL because they drive equipment manufacture and help define how the "real" game is supposed to be played. If that's with rules then fine. If it's with equipment, even better. But now that there's a test that can be run on living sufferers of cognitive disruption to determine if they have CTE and how many participants of football have it compared to a non-football sample, there is going to be real-world data about just what kind of damage is being done by playing all kinds of sports.

And if you think that won't change the minds of parents, insurers, lawyers, equipment manufacturers and rules committees across the 50 states, you're not paying attention. If football is going to continue to be the hard-hitting, helmeted sport that we have been watching, then some things are going to have to change because the damage done by playing football this way will finally be able to be tallied.

And my guess is that the damage being done with current rules and equipment will have a real-dollar cost that's too high to sustain the game across all levels. We'll find out soon enough.

~G

I'm glad someone on this board can see the bigger picture here. The main issue isn't the safety of NFL players. It's that these issues are rapidly tricking down to the lower levels of football and threatening the well-being of the sport of football on the whole.

[BroncoJoe]

Guys, from now on I will never again leave my house. It's just too dangerous out there.

[DenBronx]

Vince McMahon should have kept the XFL going, so when the NFL finally pusses out and puts flags on it's players then people would switch to watching the XFL.

[Northman]

It's not about it being a dangerous job. It's about the dangers of the job being unjustifiable, especially since many of those being injured are not actually working, they're kids getting concussed in YAL or Pee Wee football, or on a JV team, or in Division II college ball.

If the danger is having a busted leg, well those heal. If it's getting early arthritis, well lots of pursuits can promise that and people can choose their risks accordingly.

If the danger is that asbestos insulation will rip up your lungs until you die a horrible, gasping early death, and no one told you that was a risk (and worse, hid that risk from you)... then it's a huge problem.

If football concussions = asbestos health risks, then no youth league will be able to afford to field a team, just like no school can afford to insulate with asbestos. They'll find alternatives that neither carry huge premiums nor render themselves uninsurable against lawsuits.

Could pro football afford to carry on despite lawsuits, high premiums for insurance, dedicated funds for the injured, etc? Absolutely. But without a base of players to draw from because no one can play football due to its future uninsurability, how would there even be a pro league?

The reason the NFL has to fix this now is to keep the pipeline of talent flowing and reducing the risk to players at all levels. And it has to be the NFL because they drive equipment manufacture and help define how the "real" game is supposed to be played. If that's with rules then fine. If it's with equipment, even better. But now that there's a test that can be run on living sufferers of cognitive disruption to determine if they have CTE and how many participants of football have it compared to a non-football sample, there is going to be real-world data about just what kind of damage is being done by playing all kinds of sports.

And if you think that won't change the minds of parents, insurers, lawyers, equipment manufacturers and rules committees across the 50 states, you're not paying attention. If football is going to continue to be the hard-hitting, helmeted sport that we have been watching, then some things are going to have to change because the damage done by playing football this way will finally be able to be tallied.

And my guess is that the damage being done with current rules and equipment will have a real-dollar cost that's too high to sustain the game across all levels. We'll find out soon enough.

~G

Make it flag football. Problem solved.

The most irritating and insulting thing about these arguments you make is you can water the sport down all you want. The minute a RB hits the hole to gain a yard he can be paralyzed. What are you going to do? Make it so they cant touch each other? Might as well. Its the ONLY way to be safe. Sure, im being a douche and sarcastic as all get out but im 100% right. You cant dance around and pretend to make a game safer when technically your really not making it safer by allowing them to still be physical. Injuries can happen anywhere so i just find it laughable that you guys think that somehow its going to change just because you tweak a rule here or there. Thats just hogwash.

[BroncoWave]

And you don't think the NFL is trying???

Yeah, now that they are getting sued they are. I don't buy for a second though that before recent years they were completely ignorant of the health risks and doing everything they could to keep the game safe. Hell up until recently they didn't really even have sideline concussion testing. They just let guys go right back in the game for no other reason than the player wanted to.

[DenBronx]

Guys, from now on I will never again leave my house. It's just too dangerous out there.

Yeah....i'm not going to take the risk of leaving my house either. I will just be a stay at home dad.

[BroncoWave]

Make it flag football. Problem solved.

The most irritating and insulting thing about these arguments you make is you can water the sport down all you want. The minute a RB hits the hole to gain a yard he can be paralyzed. What are you going to do? Make it so they cant touch each other? Might as well. Its the ONLY way to be safe. Sure, im being a douche and sarcastic as all get out but im 100% right. You cant dance around and pretend to make a game safer when technically your really not making it safer by allowing them to still be physical. Injuries can happen anywhere so i just find it laughable that you guys think that somehow its going to change just because you tweak a rule here or there. Thats just hogwash.

So the only options are make it flag football to completely eliminate injuries or keep it the way it used to be and let everything go, since injuries happen in football? I don't have to tell you how stupid that is. Obviously football will always have injuries, but that doesn't mean you can't try to eliminate as many of them as possible.

[Ravage!!!]

Seems that every ex-NFL player says the same thing.. just as Ed Reed said when asked about Jr. Seau before the Super Bowl... "He knew what he signed up for."

These guys aren't being asked to do something where they had NO CLUE what was going to happen when they stepped onto the field. You play a sport where you run into other people. SHOCKING NEWS HERE... you "could" get hurt! :shocked:

The players now, and the players then, knew what the dangers were. Hell, they BRAGGED that they were playing a dangerous sport. ITs what made them house-hold names. Badmitten players aren't exactly getting Nike shoe deals, or getting invited to "Dancing with the Stars." The very fact that its dangerous is the reason we LOVE the sport. The very fact that it's dangerous is hwy we marvel at they collisions that are made, and the athleticism that is needed to succeed.

We can make football safe to watch. 7 on 7 flag football passing league (FFPL). No tackling. Weeeeeeee

[G_Money]

Grantland had a good article about the potential death of football as a viable sport about this time last year:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7559458/cte-concussion-crisis-economic-look-end-football


The most plausible route to the death of football starts with liability suits. Precollegiate football is already sustaining 90,000 or more concussions each year. If ex-players start winning judgments, insurance companies might cease to insure colleges and high schools against football-related lawsuits. Coaches, team physicians, and referees would become increasingly nervous about their financial exposure in our litigious society. If you are coaching a high school football team, or refereeing a game as a volunteer, it is sobering to think that you could be hit with a $2 million lawsuit at any point in time. A lot of people will see it as easier to just stay away. More and more modern parents will keep their kids out of playing football, and there tends to be a "contagion effect" with such decisions; once some parents have second thoughts, many others follow suit. We have seen such domino effects with the risks of smoking or driving without seatbelts, two unsafe practices that were common in the 1960s but are much rarer today. The end result is that the NFL's feeder system would dry up and advertisers and networks would shy away from associating with the league, owing to adverse publicity and some chance of being named as co-defendants in future lawsuits.

It may not matter that the losses from these lawsuits are much smaller than the total revenue from the sport as a whole. As our broader health care sector indicates (try buying private insurance when you have a history of cancer treatment), insurers don't like to go where they know they will take a beating. That means just about everyone could be exposed to fear of legal action.

This slow death march could easily take 10 to 15 years. Imagine the timeline. A couple more college players — or worse, high schoolers — commit suicide with autopsies showing CTE. A jury makes a huge award of $20 million to a family. A class-action suit shapes up with real legs, the NFL keeps changing its rules, but it turns out that less than concussion levels of constant head contact still produce CTE. Technological solutions (new helmets, pads) are tried and they fail to solve the problem. Soon high schools decide it isn't worth it. The Ivy League quits football, then California shuts down its participation, busting up the Pac-12. Then the Big Ten calls it quits, followed by the East Coast schools. Now it's mainly a regional sport in the southeast and Texas/Oklahoma. The socioeconomic picture of a football player becomes more homogeneous: poor, weak home life, poorly educated. Ford and Chevy pull their advertising, as does IBM and eventually the beer companies.

There's a lot less money in the sport, and at first it's "the next hockey" and then it's "the next rugby," and finally the franchises start to shutter.

Along the way, you would have an NFL with much lower talent levels, less training, and probably greater player representation from poorer countries, where the demand for money is higher and the demand for safety is lower. Finally, the NFL is marginalized as less-dangerous sports gobble up its market share. People — American people — might actually start calling "soccer" by the moniker of "football."

Trying to get ahead of that is the job the commissioner needs to be worried about.

Saving football while making it safe enough for kids to continue to play without fear of lawsuits is a really big deal, the macho posturing in this thread aside. It's not about getting owies while playing and needing a bandaid and a lollipop.

There are bigger issues at work than what's going on with the bodies of those that play. What's happening to their brains (and how to stop them from turning to mush while playing the sport) is going to determine the future of football.

~G

[BroncoJoe]

Yeah, BTB. You're right. They haven't tried to improve equipment or rules at all.

http://www.old-picture.com/american-legacy/008/pictures/Football-Uniform-Old.jpg

http://nikeinc.com/system/assets/16994/Nike-Football-Pro-Bowl-Uniform-AFC_preview.jpg?1359136495

[Northman]

So the only options are make it flag football to completely eliminate injuries or keep it the way it used to be and let everything go, since injuries happen in football? I don't have to tell you how stupid that is. Obviously football will always have injuries, but that doesn't mean you can't try to eliminate as many of them as possible.


Wait? What? Now your saying its stupid to make the game safer? Really?

I gave you a way to make it safer for EVERYONE and your still not happy. Lmao classic.

[DenBronx]

What's even more crazy is that all of these football players familes all show up to these games with the biggest grins on their faces, usually cheering the loudest. I don't buy for a second that moms and dads will all keep their kid away from playing the game. There might a few here and there that do that but no way in hell the talent pool gets weakenend. These parents all enjoy the ride too.

I just met James Jones (Green Bay Packers) parents a few weeks back. Went inside their house and his mom gave me an autographed card of his. They live in Mountain House, Ca. I am under the impression they would have their son do it all over again if they could. They knew their son signed up with risks involved.

[Ravage!!!]

So the only options are make it flag football to completely eliminate injuries or keep it the way it used to be and let everything go, since injuries happen in football? I don't have to tell you how stupid that is. Obviously football will always have injuries, but that doesn't mean you can't try to eliminate as many of them as possible.

Wait... lets make up our mind.

I mean, if we are going to make it "safe".. then why not make it safe? Why are some injuries "ok" to risk, while others are not? Who's to say that the OL don't suffer for their entire LIVES with back, knee, and neck issues because they've spent their NFL careers blocking? Are their aches, pains, and suffers to be ignored?? If so, why? What about the athritius that builds up in their finger joints from having so many broken fingers...should they not be compensated for this? SHould we NOT do something to keep these athletes from not being injured? How do we do that?

Where is the line of this "elimination of injuries" drawn? Why would one injury type be looked into and 'resolved' while others are ignored? Wouldn't players that suffer from back surgeries want to be acknowledged after those suffering from headaches get what they want? Why wouldn't they? Backs are EXTREMELY painful, and can make living life very very very difficult when injuries continue to throb.

After the head injuries is looked into, and then the back injuries are looked into, what would be next... knees? Of course. So then we have the head, back, and knees..... and then what? Necks.. ok..... so then we have the head, back, knees, and then neck.. whats next?

[BroncoWave]

Seems that every ex-NFL player says the same thing.. just as Ed Reed said when asked about Jr. Seau before the Super Bowl... "He knew what he signed up for."

These guys aren't being asked to do something where they had NO CLUE what was going to happen when they stepped onto the field. You play a sport where you run into other people. SHOCKING NEWS HERE... you "could" get hurt! :shocked:

The players now, and the players then, knew what the dangers were. Hell, they BRAGGED that they were playing a dangerous sport. ITs what made them house-hold names. Badmitten players aren't exactly getting Nike shoe deals, or getting invited to "Dancing with the Stars." The very fact that its dangerous is the reason we LOVE the sport. The very fact that it's dangerous is hwy we marvel at they collisions that are made, and the athleticism that is needed to succeed.

We can make football safe to watch. 7 on 7 flag football passing league (FFPL). No tackling. Weeeeeeee

Weeeeee! Another person who is missing the point! It's not about the guys who have signed up to make millions. It's about the millions of people who play football and don't get paid a dime for it. G's posts in this thread are explaining it better than I could though, so I will just direct you to read those.

[DenBronx]

BTB, if you feel so strongly on the issue then maybe you shouldnt have worked for an NFL team then. :lol: Cmon man, you should have taken a stand against tyranny.

[Northman]

Grantland had a good article about the potential death of football as a viable sport about this time last year:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7559458/cte-concussion-crisis-economic-look-end-football



Trying to get ahead of that is the job the commissioner needs to be worried about.

Saving football while making it safe enough for kids to continue to play without fear of lawsuits is a really big deal, the macho posturing in this thread aside. It's not about getting owies while playing and needing a bandaid and a lollipop.

There are bigger issues at work than what's going on with the bodies of those that play. What's happening to their brains (and how to stop them from turning to mush while playing the sport) is going to determine the future of football.

~G


Macho posturing has nothing to do with it G and your really so much better than this. I just find it funny that you care so much about the health of these players yet you dont want to do EVERYTHING that is necessary to make them safe. You think changing helmets or adding extra padding is going to solve all that? Dont kid yourself, it wont. Serious injuries will still happen as long as they allow the physicality of the sport the way it is.

[G_Money]

Seems that every ex-NFL player says the same thing.. just as Ed Reed said when asked about Jr. Seau before the Super Bowl... "He knew what he signed up for."

These guys aren't being asked to do something where they had NO CLUE what was going to happen when they stepped onto the field. You play a sport where you run into other people. SHOCKING NEWS HERE... you "could" get hurt! :shocked:

The players now, and the players then, knew what the dangers were. Hell, they BRAGGED that they were playing a dangerous sport. ITs what made them house-hold names. Badmitten players aren't exactly getting Nike shoe deals, or getting invited to "Dancing with the Stars." The very fact that its dangerous is the reason we LOVE the sport. The very fact that it's dangerous is hwy we marvel at they collisions that are made, and the athleticism that is needed to succeed.

We can make football safe to watch. 7 on 7 flag football passing league (FFPL). No tackling. Weeeeeeee

The jury of their "peers" that's gonna award damages in however many of these lawsuits come down aren't going to be going by Ed Reed's thought process. They won't have played football. They won't have an investment in getting million dollar checks for destroying themselves.

They're going to be shown suicide note after suicide note, ugly brainscan after devastating medical report, and be told to award damages to save future children from blowing their brains out 5 years after retirement due to the brain damage they suffered during their playing careers. They'll be given facts that show just how many people who never get paid a dime to play football actually suffer the consequences from playing it as a hobby, or a college sport.

And the number they award will be large enough to kill football as we know it.

Flag football may be all you get later, because just as we don't sanction people to handle radioactive material without proper shielding ("Madame Curie was a REAL (wo)man, she didn't need any of these pansy "radiation suits" and "clean rooms") we also will not allow the risks of permanent brain damage that come with playing football if we prove those risks are as real as radiation poisoning is.

It's a sobering thought, at least for me. You can rail against it all you want and pretend that all the risks in football have been acknowledged up front and accounted for, but you'd better hope the people in charge of the game are working harder at solving the problem than you would be.

~G

[Ravage!!!]

Weeeeee! Another person who is missing the point! It's not about the guys who have signed up to make millions. It's about the millions of people who play football and don't get paid a dime for it. G's posts in this thread are explaining it better than I could though, so I will just direct you to read those.

Its about them? So you are saying that if the NFL didn't exist, that the schools woldn't play football and thus, wouldn't have these injuries. You are probalby right. If the NFL goes to the FFPL (Flag Football Passing League), then I'm sure the trickle-down effect will flood through the younger ages. We would eliminate tackling at all ages.

So lets just make it safe rather than trying to "nick pick" our way through the injuries and hem-hawing our way through it.

[BroncoWave]

BTB, if you feel so strongly on the issue then maybe you shouldnt have worked for an NFL team then. :lol: Cmon man, you should have taken a stand against tyranny.

I still love the NFL and would not take any job over working in sports, but that doesn't mean I can't want the game to be safer too. You guys can just bury your heads in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong, but it doesn't make you right.

[BroncoWave]

Its about them? So you are saying that if the NFL didn't exist, that the schools woldn't play football and thus, wouldn't have these injuries. You are probalby right. If the NFL goes to the FFPL (Flag Football Passing League), then I'm sure the trickle-down effect will flood through the younger ages. We would eliminate tackling at all ages.

So lets just make it safe rather than trying to "nick pick" our way through the injuries and hem-hawing our way through it.

Explain what the problem with nit-picking injuries is. You won't die young from tearing an ACL or breaking a bone. You can from multiple concussions though. What's the problem with singling out that injury and trying to reduce it?

[G_Money]

Macho posturing has nothing to do with it G and your really so much better than this. I just find it funny that you care so much about the health of these players yet you dont want to do EVERYTHING that is necessary to make them safe. You think changing helmets or adding extra padding is going to solve all that? Dont kid yourself, it wont. Serious injuries will still happen as long as they allow the physicality of the sport the way it is.

There are serious physical injuries and then there are serious mental injuries. If 1 out of every 4 players that stepped foot on the field was carted off permanently paralyzed by the end of their careers, you can bet that football would cease to be a sport. If it turns out that one out of every 4 pros (just to pick a number) winds up with CTE after their playing careers and is doomed to a life spiraling out of control and ending in a horrible early demise, then I would expect the same.

First I would change the equipment, yes. Because I would like to keep the sport that I enjoy somewhat similar to the way that it was played before. But if that doesn't help, if that doesn't get it below whatever threshold is deemed "Acceptable Risk" then yes, it's gonna go to flag football, or no football.

Them's the breaks. Once we have a better grasp on the mental ailments caused by playing the game and the lawyers get involved, there's no way things won't change. Because right now they're not accounted for at all.

~G

[Northman]

You can rail against it all you want and pretend that all the risks in football have been acknowledged up front and accounted for, but you'd better hope the people in charge of the game are working harder at solving the problem than you would be.

~G


Actually, they better hope that every kid that ever played football in pee wee league, high school, college (who never made it to the NFL) doesnt come looking to sue. If all of a sudden its dictated that all those years in the past people played the sport have nagging injuries (either related or not) they will come looking for settlements. I knew the risks of football when i played, in fact fractured my ankle doing it when i was a sophomore but i did it because i loved the sport and continued to play after that. Its a risk to play, its not rocket science and if at ANY time a parent thinks the risk is too great than simply dont allow your kid to play. Where is the accountability of the parents? How about when you get to the college level? Your old enough to make your own decisions and decide if the risk is too great. Your theory is nothing more than the typical mantra in this day and age where we take personal accountability and lay it at the feet of someone else. Sorry man, that line of thinking is a joke to me.

[G_Money]

Actually, they better hope that every kid that ever played football in pee wee league, high school, college (who never made it to the NFL) doesnt come looking to sue. If all of a sudden its dictated that all those years in the past people played the sport have nagging injuries (either related or not) they will come looking for settlements. I knew the risks of football when i played, in fact fractured my ankle doing it when i was a sophomore but i did it because i loved the sport and continued to play after that.

Um... if hundreds of thousands of former kids who just played football for fun or in college can go in, get a free CTE test for the proteins that will be chewing up their brains until the day they die, and sign on the dotted line of the class action lawsuit for damages incurred, then yes - they will do exactly that. It's not any different than taking Phen-fen, finding out it rips up your internal organs, and then suing the drug company.

You talk about "knowing the risk of a broken ankle" which is true - everyone acknowledges that broken bones or ripped ligaments were always a risk in playing the game. Every year a few kids die of heat stroke from poorly monitored conditioning drills (or "old-school" drills that put them at undue risk).

This is hundreds of thousands of previously undiagnosed injuries to the nervous system. And once enough parents decide that risk is too great - if there are even pro or college leagues around after all the lawsuits - the participants in the games will go way down.

I'm not advocating that. My original post was about how heart-breaking I find it that these injuries have happened in the sport I love and may have happened at unprecedented, catastrophic rates. And that the pro league that would be able to monitor it might have shoved studies in a desk drawer in a short-sighted attempt to maintain the status quo.

"Acceptible risk" is a funny phrase, because it changes with every individual act it's applied to. But the risk to playing football this way may be too high, and the more stories come out the higher it feels. Because the articles are cherry-picked the actual incidents may not be as high - but from the dead-brain studies on CTE that they've been doing, it sure looks like the risks are going to wind up being MAJOR, especially now that a test can be done on the living to determine just what they're suffering from.

That's a good thing - being able to test for CTE means we can see the proteins at work, maybe even find a way to neutralize them and prevent all this damage. It would let athletes get a CTE scan every year and determine for themselves what risk levels they find acceptable (again, assuming the sport survives the interim).

But this is the rocky beginning, when somebody sights the barrier reef through the fog and tells the pilot to steer the damn boat out of its way. How much damage is gonna be done to the sport by that reef isn't known yet. I hope it's not as much as I fear, that's all.

~G

[Poet]

I think they're talking about lowering the risk to what is an acceptable rate. The notion that it's either this or flag football is nothing more than a strawman.

[Mike]

What is the solution then?

I don't think there is a way to take the trauma out of the game. The game is about full speed collision and physically enforcing your will upon the other team.

As far as legal aspects, I am sure that will have an impact. Maybe league killing. But I would never award a player if I were on the jury. They willingly chose to participate in a full contact sport and were well compensated. I am sure there are a ton of soft-hearted people that disagree and will side with the player.

[BroncoWave]

I think they're talking about lowering the risk to what is an acceptable rate. The notion that it's either this or flag football is nothing more than a strawman.

Yep apparently if you want the game to be safer but don't want it to become flag football you are simply a raging hypocrite. Middle ground must not exist anymore.

[BroncoWave]

What is the solution then?

I don't think there is a way to take the trauma out of the game. The game is about full speed collision and physically enforcing your will upon the other team.

As far as legal aspects, I am sure that will have an impact. Maybe league killing. But I would never award a player if I were on the jury. They willingly chose to participate in a full contact sport and were well compensated. I am sure there are a ton of soft-hearted people that disagree and will side with the player.

What if evidence came out that the NFL knew the long-term brain risks of playing but didn't educate the players nor give them a chance to reduce that risk? If that were the case then you could argue that the players weren't aware of all the risks they were facing by playing.

[BroncoJoe]

Yep apparently if you want the game to be safer but don't want it to become flag football you are simply a raging hypocrite. Middle ground must not exist anymore.

It's more about your condescending attitude than anything. From your first post on the subject and throughout the thread. Basically anyone that doesn't agree with you is stupid, ignorant, burying their heads in the sand or too full of testosterone to have a conversation with.

Get over yourself.

[Poet]

A company is liable when they don't report risks to their employees. They are also liable if they learn of knowledge about a liability that alerts them to an increase in it and remain silent.

I personally do not think this happened. If that is true - again I don't think it is - then the NFL really ****** up.

I don't know if there needs to be a change, I want more data from more sources. No one wants guys to get hurt, or worse game. It's rare for companies and people with this much money to not be able to do something, especially if it really is needed.

[BroncoJoe]

What if evidence came out that the NFL knew the long-term brain risks of playing but didn't educate the players nor give them a chance to reduce that risk? If that were the case then you could argue that the players weren't aware of all the risks they were facing by playing.

No. You'd have to be a complete moron to not realize the health risks of playing football. Including possible brain injury.

Additionally, these players are not required to seek medical attention, and often times they refuse it. They are not forced to off season screening, nor do they (I believe) want to participate in their extended holiday from the game itself.

As with anything, it takes a problem to come up with a solution. I don't believe anyone knew the extent of the problems that multiple concussions can leave. There wasn't really any reason to look further into it until recently.

[Northman]

I think they're talking about lowering the risk to what is an acceptable rate. The notion that it's either this or flag football is nothing more than a strawman.

No its not.

Thats like saying whats an acceptable rate of death. Doesnt matter if you go from 15% deaths to 5%. That 5% will still have loved ones seeking answers and wondering why nothing was done to prevent it. You can either dance around it like yourself, BTB, or Gmoney or you can do EVERYTHING possible and erase it completely.

This is nothing more than an organization that wants to have its cake and eat it too while still allowing devastating risks in the game. For me, shit or get off the pot. You want it safe? Than do it and dont nickle and dime me.

[Poet]

No. You'd have to be a complete moron to not realize the health risks of playing football. Including possible brain injury.

Is there not varying degrees of injuries? I'm playing devil's advocate, but let's be honest here.

[Northman]

Yep apparently if you want the game to be safer but don't want it to become flag football you are simply a raging hypocrite. Middle ground must not exist anymore.

Oh please.

Your the one bitching and moaning that no one is taking it seriously on here and IN YOUR WORDS dont care about the athletes yet here you are still wanting them to pound each in the in the head when they tackle while i gave you an alternative to erasing that by a 100%.

[BroncoJoe]

Is there not varying degrees of injuries? I'm playing devil's advocate, but let's be honest here.

I edited my post to further reflect on the thought.

[Northman]

What if evidence came out that the NFL knew the long-term brain risks of playing but didn't educate the players nor give them a chance to reduce that risk? If that were the case then you could argue that the players weren't aware of all the risks they were facing by playing.


What if it turned out that Gateway High School knew the risks and didnt tell their kids of the risks?

[G_Money]

And if the lawsuits are brought by Pee Wee football participants and High School players and college guys who never went pro, Mike? People who never made a dime off their play but now can't hold jobs or keep relationships, who can't remember their kids' names or what street they live on?

Let's say the NFL really did hide concussion studies showing the neurological damage that might be provided by the game, or that the NCAA did. It was a risk not considered by the participants who were told by the leading pro and college leagues that concussions had no long-term effects when those organizations knew they did, and that in turn misled smaller youth leagues into believing they were providing a safe activity, or at least an activity with a known set of risks.

Maybe that's just the risk of any activity, and somebody hiding those risks from you isn't a crime. Except that asbestos cigarette litigation has proven that it is a crime in a court of law, and those who hid said studies performed criminal acts, because the level of risk that you thought you were assuming by participating was not in fact the actual level of risk as known by those with the power to change such risks.

Do you award then, or accept the criminal act? Are all awards just "soft-hearted" and people should grow a spine even if their brain is now a form of soft goo?

~G

[Poet]

No its not.

Thats like saying whats an acceptable rate of death. Doesnt matter if you go from 15% deaths to 5%. That 5% will still have loved ones seeking answers and wondering why nothing was done to prevent it. You can either dance around it like yourself, BTB, or Gmoney or you can do EVERYTHING possible and erase it completely.

This is nothing more than an organization that wants to have its cake and eat it too while still allowing devastating risks in the game. For me, shit or get off the pot. You want it safe? Than do it and dont nickle and dime me.

Well my friend, there actually is an acceptable rate of death. Car companies are given certain criteria that they have to meet for safety. They can almost always go beyond that and often times they do because it's a great selling point. However, there is a point where making or maximizing safety hurts them financially.Factors like cost or change in overall look on the car, things like that.

It's awful to say, but there are acceptable rates in death and injury.

[BroncoJoe]

And if the lawsuits are brought by Pee Wee football participants and High School players and college guys who never went pro, Mike? People who never made a dime off their play but now can't hold jobs or keep relationships, who can't remember their kids' names or what street they live on?

Let's say the NFL really did hide concussion studies showing the neurological damage that might be provided by the game, or that the NCAA did. It was a risk not considered by the participants who were told by the leading pro and college leagues that concussions had no long-term effects when those organizations knew they did, and that in turn misled smaller youth leagues into believing they were providing a safe activity, or at least an activity with a known set of risks.

Maybe that's just the risk of any activity, and somebody hiding those risks from you isn't a crime. Except that asbestos cigarette litigation has proven that it is a crime in a court of law, and those who hid said studies performed criminal acts, because the level of risk that you thought you were assuming by participating was not in fact the actual level of risk as known by those with the power to change such risks.

Do you award then, or accept the criminal act? Are all awards just "soft-hearted" and people should grow a spine even if their brain is now a form of soft goo?

~G

How would they get that in-depth information, G?

they didn't, because the players wouldn't allow the poking and prodding during their time away from the sport.

[BroncoWave]

It's more about your condescending attitude than anything. From your first post on the subject and throughout the thread. Basically anyone that doesn't agree with you is stupid, ignorant, burying their heads in the sand or too full of testosterone to have a conversation with.

Get over yourself.

Yep, pretty much.

[Northman]

Maybe that's just the risk of any activity,

It is and has been for quite a long time.

Maybe the X-games people should of told that young guy that flipping a snow-mobile upside down in the air could be fatal. I mean at some point there just has to be common sense.

[Northman]

Well my friend, there actually is an acceptable rate of death. Car companies are given certain criteria that they have to meet for safety. They can almost always go beyond that and often times they do because it's a great selling point. However, there is a point where making or maximizing safety hurts them financially.Factors like cost or change in overall look on the car, things like that.

It's awful to say, but there are acceptable rates in death and injury.

Not to wish any bad things on you but you might feel differently if that low rate involved someone you loved. Its easy to talk about lowering something unless your unlucky enough to end up on the short end of the stick. If the idea is to do EVERYTHING possible to eliminate those kinds of injuries and there is a clear cut way to do that than NOT doing it means your not doing everything necessary to solve it.

[Poet]

Not to wish any bad things on you but you might feel differently if that low rate involved someone you loved. Its easy to talk about lowering something unless your unlucky enough to end up on the short end of the stick. If the idea is to do EVERYTHING possible to eliminate those kinds of injuries and there is a clear cut way to do that than NOT doing it means your not doing everything necessary to solve it.

I sure would man, but I'm just talking business and the business world. It is awful to think that there are accepted rates out there for stuff like this, but it's true.

[BroncoJoe]

Yep, pretty much.

Then perhaps you should simply just stick to talking with yourself.

[G_Money]

No. You'd have to be a complete moron to not realize the health risks of playing football. Including possible brain injury.

Additionally, these players are not required to seek medical attention, and often times they refuse it. They are not forced to off season screening, nor do they (I believe) want to participate in their extended holiday from the game itself.

As with anything, it takes a problem to come up with a solution. I don't believe anyone knew the extent of the problems that multiple concussions can leave. There wasn't really any reason to look further into it until recently.

What's the risk of becoming a completely different person who cannot hold down even the most menial job a few years after playing? Is it one in 10,000? One in a hundred?

You can find out what the risk is of breaking your ankle playing football, or how that might impact you later in life.

If the NFL knew concussions were a much bigger deal and hid it, then they're in deep trouble. I'm with you, I'm hoping that they did not know any more recently than anyone else. But even if they didn't know before, if there's nothing that can be done to stop it from happening in the future, especially to non-pro athletes, then football's going to have a lot of trouble having the same sort of youth participation that it has now, and that will absolutely affect the pro game.

~G

[G_Money]

It is and has been for quite a long time.

Maybe the X-games people should of told that young guy that flipping a snow-mobile upside down in the air could be fatal. I mean at some point there just has to be common sense.

Is there any guarantee that flipping snowmobiles will continue to be allowed at future X-Games? Maybe the risks will not be acceptable to organizers and sponsors, and flipping snow-mobiles will become a more fringe activity.

Still, there aren't organized leagues for snowmobile jumping with millions of 8 years olds flipping their own minis and gleefully unaware that they might die. If, OTOH, snowmobile exhaust was destroying the brains of hundreds of thousands of recreational snowmobilers I can guarantee you that a lawsuit would bring the whole industry to its knees.

~G

[Northman]

Is there any guarantee that flipping snowmobiles will continue to be allowed at future X-Games? Maybe the risks will not be acceptable to organizers and sponsors, and flipping snow-mobiles will become a more fringe activity.

Still, there aren't organized leagues for snowmobile jumping with millions of 8 years olds flipping their own minis and gleefully unaware that they might die. If, OTOH, snowmobile exhaust was destroying the brains of hundreds of thousands of recreational snowmobilers I can guarantee you that a lawsuit would bring the whole industry to its knees.

~G


Yet there isnt hundreds of thousands of ex-football players who are dying from brain damage either. There are plenty of former football players who are just fine.

[wayninja]

After reading this thread I have determined that athletes who refuse to go the hospital after puking blood are smarter than fans. Or something like that.

[Northman]

After reading this thread I have determined that athletes who refuse to go the hospital after puking blood are smarter than fans. Or something like that.

Hmmm, i may have to re-read.

The only thing i got out of it was that BTB knew more than everyone else because he used to shower with Drew Brees.

[wayninja]

Hmmm, i may have to re-read.

The only thing i got out of it was that BTB knew more than everyone else because he used to shower with Drew Brees.

Once the NFL conforms to his sense of safety, we may all relax in the knowledge that everyone is safe and the integrity of the sport has not been compromised.

[G_Money]

Not to wish any bad things on you but you might feel differently if that low rate involved someone you loved. Its easy to talk about lowering something unless your unlucky enough to end up on the short end of the stick. If the idea is to do EVERYTHING possible to eliminate those kinds of injuries and there is a clear cut way to do that than NOT doing it means your not doing everything necessary to solve it.

The idea is that whatever the activity is, it is not significantly higher than some other activity. People drown in their own bathtubs accidentally, but bathtubs are not outlawed. They die by getting hit by meteorites or lightning, but we don't have meteorite missile shields in place because it's impractical.

The thing with football right now isn't death, it's trauma. If concussions cause far more serious trauma to the brain than previously disclosed, then the risk rate of playing football gets much higher. How much of our mental health problem in this country is poorly diagnosed sports brain trauma? We dunno yet, but I hope we find out.

If you were given a drug that healed your body but destroyed your mind, only the destroyed-mind part didn't come out til years later, you would have to assess the risks of continuing to take that drug. In some cases, the government would not ALLOW you the choice to use that drug and would pull it off the market because they don't trust you to make those decisions about your body and mind. Whether or not I agree with that is beside the point - they simply prevent you from getting access to the drug at all.

Playing football doesn't seem significantly more risky to life and limb than riding the public bus. It does seem, the more information that comes out, that it is FAR more dangerous to your mental health and quality of life.

It's illegal to bare-knuckle brawl. MMA had to change their rules in order to get fight licenses in states like Nevada. The government can and does prevent you from doing "whatever you want" for fun and money. The worst-case-scenario for football would be getting their collective bargaining rights pulled by the government and/or having rules and equipment changes forced on them in order to maintain their legality nationwide.

Because there's falling-down-the-stairs risk, which does not cause us to make stairs illegal (though their height is regulated, FYI, to prevent more falls), and there's hazardous-waste-disposal risk, which comes with a million restrictions and government oversight.

~G

[Northman]

Once the NFL conforms to his sense of safety, we may all relax in the knowledge that everyone is safe and the integrity of the sport has not been compromised.

I dont know, im hoping that since he is on the inside that he will represent me in my case against the NFL. I played football in high school and for the longest time ive had this terrible itch in the groin area but i know that its the NFL's fault and i need a settlement. He makes a strong case with his background and since he does care about my health im sure he will do it for free.

[Poet]

You guys are so mean. BTB is that dude.

[Northman]

The thing with football right now isn't death, it's trauma. If concussions cause far more serious trauma to the brain than previously disclosed, then the risk rate of playing football gets much higher. How much of our mental health problem in this country is poorly diagnosed sports brain trauma? We dunno yet, but I hope we find out.




And then what? Again, the way the game is played (outside of what they have already changed) a simple tackle can create a concussion. If it really is that important for player safety than why dance around it? Makes zero sense if you (as an organization, fans, etc) feel that its a serious problem. Simply trying to cut down the risk isnt solving the problem, instead it just means that the NFL wants to continue make millions of dollars off the sport itself without truly addressing the problem in its entirety.

[Poet]

North, do you reject the notion of shades of grey safety entirely?

[Northman]

North, do you reject the notion of shades of grey safety entirely?


You lost me. I caught the SOG reference but have no idea where your going with it. lol

[G_Money]

Yet there isnt hundreds of thousands of ex-football players who are dying from brain damage either. There are plenty of former football players who are just fine.

There might be hundreds of thousands of former football players suffering through brain injury caused by football, though. The point is we don't actually know. There aren't hundreds of thousands of ex-pro-football players, period. Is there some reason that it has to be "dying" from brain injury to be worth a change to the sport? Quality of life means something, not just length of it. Did you read the bit about the Steelers C Webster, who went off the deep end in his personal life and was tasering himself to get to sleep by the end?

In a few years when thousands of brainscans have been done using the newly-devised CTE finding scan, not just of pro football players but high-school and college as well, we'll have a better grasp on just how much damage we're talking about. Maybe the amount will be tiny, and able to be rationalized and accounted for in a medical stipend for sufferers who played pro and college ball or some other way.

Maybe it won't be. When 34 of 35 dead footballers had brain disease, it makes me wonder how widespread and pernicious the damage might be, and how that might irrevocably change our game.

~G

[Poet]

You lost me. I caught the SOG reference but have no idea where your going with it. lol

Oh damnit....I just...****....for great shame.

I was not trying to reference that book.

What I am trying - and failing- to ask you is if you don't believe in shades of grey, or difficult to quantify measures of safety? If I botched this and you still don't get me, then I'm an idiot and will stop butchering this thread, haha.

[G_Money]

And then what? Again, the way the game is played (outside of what they have already changed) a simple tackle can create a concussion. If it really is that important for player safety than why dance around it? Makes zero sense if you (as an organization, fans, etc) feel that its a serious problem. Simply trying to cut down the risk isnt solving the problem, instead it just means that the NFL wants to continue make millions of dollars off the sport itself without truly addressing the problem in its entirety.

And that argument may be made. The NFL may be able to counter with the idea that their collective bargaining agreement supercedes player safety, and that the players who play in the NFL get millions of dollars in return for the increased risk of brain disease (which would then be outlined in future CBAs) and the CTE Sufferer Fund (or whatever) has been set up to help those players deal with it.

But that doesn't help the sport at lower levels. There may be a divide where BCS football schools (who would also have set up a CTE-type of fund) play tackle football, and the NFL plays it, but Div II and III colleges, most high schools outside of the south, and Pee Wee leagues only play modified tag in shells because they can't afford the liability of "real" football.

That's entirely possible, IMO - as is the rise of a flag football league since most people would then be more personally familiar with the non-violent version of football.

~G

[Northman]

The other thing that hasnt been brought up is drug and steroid use. Some of these players most surely did recreational drugs and used steroids so how much does some of that activity play into all this? To me, there just wont be a way to truly determine what damage was done via the game and what was done via to themselves through other avenues. Heck, a guy like Underarmor was just recently praising Adrian Peterson for playing through a hernia. We've seen how players can put pressure on themselves to play hurt and not tell anyone because they dont want to face ridicule. Cutler is a good example, he was butchered for taking himself out of a game but how many players had concussions and went back in anyway without notifying a team doctor? Just too many variables for me to go down this route and to lay it at the feet of the league.

[wayninja]

Now that all these stories are coming out showing how bad the risk is to players later in life, I'd be surprised to see anyone turn out for the combine unless major promises are made to change the game.

[Northman]

Oh damnit....I just...****....for great shame.

I was not trying to reference that book.

What I am trying - and failing- to ask you is if you don't believe in shades of grey, or difficult to quantify measures of safety? If I botched this and you still don't get me, then I'm an idiot and will stop butchering this thread, haha.

Bwhwhahahahahahahahaha . Whooops did it again. Ravage will never let me hear the end of it.

Do i think there is a grey line? Not sure. Do i have a problem with the league making safer equipment? No. Do i think they need to change the way the game is played in terms of kick returns and such? No.

And in reference to that i just find it funny that Goodell and company want to make the game more exciting yet take away parts of the game that make it such. Without Holliday's returns vs Bmore that game becomes a snoozer. Not too mention even without the returns you still have risks on any given play. Ridley simply hit his head on the turf following a legal tackle and had to be carted off anyway. The only way to rectify that is too take away tackling. Sure, you guys think im extreme when i say flag football but the reality is if you truly want to be safe than thats how you got to be. But at some point (like it has been for years) you have to allow human accountability for the choices they make. No one is twisting their arms and forcing them to take all that money and play this game.

[wayninja]

And in reference to that i just find it funny that Goodell and company want to make the game more exciting yet take away parts of the game that make it such. Without Holliday's returns vs Bmore that game becomes a snoozer. Not too mention even without the returns you still have risks on any given play. Ridley simply hit his head on the turf following a legal tackle and had to be carted off anyway. The only way to rectify that is too take away tackling. Sure, you guys think im extreme when i say flag football but the reality is if you truly want to be safe than thats how you got to be. But at some point (like it has been for years) you have to allow human accountability for the choices they make. No one is twisting their arms and forcing them to take all that money and play this game.

It's called a slippery slope. At what point is the game 'safe enough'? Who gets to decide that without imposing too much control over individual choices?

If people want to take risks and do things they know are dangerous (and come on, we've known crashing your body into things at high speeds is dangerous for THOUSANDS OF YEARS), it's their god given right to do so.

[BroncoJoe]

Just eliminate any running.

Problem solved.

[Poet]

Just eliminate any running.

Problem solved.

Prepare for me to dominate.

[Northman]

Prepare for me to dominate.


http://youtu.be/y4LmKvybvFQ

[wayninja]

Just eliminate any running.

Problem solved.

Moore would still let wr's get behind him.

[G_Money]

I dunno how many times I have to keep saying this, but it's not the NFL players who would be a death knell to the sport, it's the lower level ones. No, no one is "twisting the arm" of the pro player to keep playing (though 6 figure minimum salaries are a good bribe) but college athletes who get a scholarship, or are just walkons? Those guys may decide that the free college education isn't worth it. Their parents may not allow them to play at lower levels period, so there are not as many college football players and the pro league becomes more like NFL Europe from a talent standpoint - or worse. I hear you can make a great living playing soccer all around the world, or baseball, or basketball, and none of those have the same CTE issues.

Or the government could force changes to the game or outlaw it entirely in its current form.

The NFL itself will be able to make a bargain with its players, whatever their physical and mental ailments from playing the game - provided they'll still have deep pockets from all this TV revenue and a vast supply of talent to choose from.

If the lower levels dry up it's going to be very hard for the NFL to continue as it is in 20 years.

~G

[wayninja]

I dunno how many times I have to keep saying this, but it's not the NFL players who would be a death knell to the sport, it's the lower level ones. No, no one is "twisting the arm" of the pro player to keep playing (though 6 figure minimum salaries are a good bribe) but college athletes who get a scholarship, or are just walkons? Those guys may decide that the free college education isn't worth it. Their parents may not allow them to play at lower levels period, so there are not as many college football players and the pro league becomes more like NFL Europe from a talent standpoint - or worse. I hear you can make a great living playing soccer all around the world, or baseball, or basketball, and none of those have the same CTE issues.

Or the government could force changes to the game or outlaw it entirely in its current form.

The NFL itself will be able to make a bargain with its players, whatever their physical and mental ailments from playing the game - provided they'll still have deep pockets from all this TV revenue and a vast supply of talent to choose from.

If the lower levels dry up it's going to be very hard for the NFL to continue as it is in 20 years.

~G

The government forcing change notwithstanding, do you see any evidence to suggest the 'lower levels' are drying up even though parents, students etc do know the dangers of the game? Even if they aren't medical researchers, there's articles like the one you posted showing that it's dangerous. And people are still lining up.

One might even argue that people willingly choose to do dangerous things all the time.

[Northman]

Those guys may decide that the free college education isn't worth it. Their parents may not allow them to play at lower levels period, so there are not as many college football players and the pro league becomes more like NFL Europe from a talent standpoint - or worse. I hear you can make a great living playing soccer all around the world, or baseball, or basketball, and none of those have the same CTE issues.



Then you know what G, im perfectly fine with that if they choose not too play. I totally understand if they think the risk is not worth it but in the end its still their choice so im 100% behind them if they refuse and want to do something else.

[Hawgdriver]

A 25mph 250# Moh's hardness 11 helmeted meat missile to dome is unhealthy. Whodathunk?

[G_Money]

It's called a slippery slope. At what point is the game 'safe enough'? Who gets to decide that without imposing too much control over individual choices?

If people want to take risks and do things they know are dangerous (and come on, we've known crashing your body into things at high speeds is dangerous for THOUSANDS OF YEARS), it's their god given right to do so.

No one will stop you from playing tackle-rugby in the mud behind your house. They just may not be able to pay you for it in an organized league, or give you a scholarship for it to attend college with. The people with money would decide that - that's who gets to decide.

Because it may be your individual choice to do anything (legal) that you want with your life and free time, but if this current version of football becomes illegal, or too litigious, then people with billions of dollars to throw around may put their money into other sports that aren't getting their pants sued off. So if you can't convince laywers and law-makers that your sport is not putting entire swaths of the population at risk just to play it, then you won't have a sport. They changed the rules of the game early on when massing plays were getting people killed and injured. The hope is that we can do that again.

If there are tests that prove that the game is far more dangerous to long-term health than previously thought, even for non-pros or casual players, AND that it cannot be made safer with the current rules and equipment, that's a huge problem. If it cannot be made safe enough with new rules and equipment, that's basically a death knell.

That's the point I never want to get to.

~G

[G_Money]

The government forcing change notwithstanding, do you see any evidence to suggest the 'lower levels' are drying up even though parents, students etc do know the dangers of the game? Even if they aren't medical researchers, there's articles like the one you posted showing that it's dangerous. And people are still lining up.

One might even argue that people willingly choose to do dangerous things all the time.

Like I said, give it 5 years. Right now it's all "maybe things are bad." Now that there's at least one test for HOW bad it might be, once there's a big enough pile of data from that test and others then lawyers will get involved. If it turns out that CTE is not a huge problem, great! Youth football can continue, and while some parents might change their minds enough won't that it'll be fine.

If CTE is a huge brain-bomb that's going off in a significant percentage of participants across all levels of pro and amateur competition, it's a BIG problem. Because the insurance premiums that are currently paid by leagues to enable participation will go through the roof and shut down all kinds of leagues, even before you get to the problem of parents allowing their kids to play or the government getting involved and further screwing things up.

That's all.

~G

[wayninja]

No one will stop you from playing tackle-rugby in the mud behind your house. They just may not be able to pay you for it in an organized league, or give you a scholarship for it to attend college with. The people with money would decide that - that's who gets to decide.

Feels like they've basically decided. Sure, they want to make the game 'safter', but as you imply, the safety will always be trumped by the Money.


Because it may be your individual choice to do anything (legal) that you want with your life and free time, but if this current version of football becomes illegal, or too litigious, then people with billions of dollars to throw around may put their money into other sports that aren't getting their pants sued off. So if you can't convince laywers and law-makers that your sport is not putting entire swaths of the population at risk just to play it, then you won't have a sport. They changed the rules of the game early on when massing plays were getting people killed and injured. The hope is that we can do that again.

That feels like a pretty big 'if' to me. Making a professional sport 'illegal' would be unprecedented. Especially one as deeply entrenched in popular culture as football.

I'm not arguing that they aren't going to change anything to try to make it safer, I'm simply saying that the nature of the game is such that there will always be injuries.


If there are tests that prove that the game is far more dangerous to long-term health than previously thought, even for non-pros or casual players, AND that it cannot be made safer with the current rules and equipment, that's a huge problem. If it cannot be made safe enough with new rules and equipment, that's basically a death knell.

That's the point I never want to get to.

~G

I simply disagree. That line of what constitutes 'too dangerous' is almost arbitrary. How 'safe' do 'they' currently think it is? I doubt anyone is under the allusion that the game has no consequence other than very rare one-offs.

The same argument can be made for a ton of sports. Football is not really the most dangerous sport out there in either the short or long term. I simply can't believe we would allow our personal choices to be so strictly legislated. If anything, personal freedoms seem to be relaxing in this country, not the other way around.

[BroncoWave]

The government forcing change notwithstanding, do you see any evidence to suggest the 'lower levels' are drying up even though parents, students etc do know the dangers of the game? Even if they aren't medical researchers, there's articles like the one you posted showing that it's dangerous. And people are still lining up.

One might even argue that people willingly choose to do dangerous things all the time.

Yes, there is tons of evidence that youth participation is shrinking. Let me highlight this article:

http://leagueoffans.org/2012/12/12/youth-football-participation-dropping/

This part in particular:

"According to a recent report from the Sports & Fitness Industry Association, the number of kids, ages 6 to 12, playing football was down 35 percent in the four-year period from 2007 to 2011."

That's ONE THIRD fewer kids playing football in just four years. Like I will continue to say, if you don't think this issue is shrinking the talent pool for football you just aren't paying attention to the facts.

[wayninja]

Like I said, give it 5 years. Right now it's all "maybe things are bad." Now that there's at least one test for HOW bad it might be, once there's a big enough pile of data from that test and others then lawyers will get involved. If it turns out that CTE is not a huge problem, great! Youth football can continue, and while some parents might change their minds enough won't that it'll be fine.

If CTE is a huge brain-bomb that's going off in a significant percentage of participants across all levels of pro and amateur competition, it's a BIG problem. Because the insurance premiums that are currently paid by leagues to enable participation will go through the roof and shut down all kinds of leagues, even before you get to the problem of parents allowing their kids to play or the government getting involved and further screwing things up.

That's all.

~G

Since CTE is also prevalent in soldiers exposed to blast/concussive forces, I don't see how the government can ethically continue to recruit armed forces members. It's simply too dangerous.

[wayninja]

Yes, there is tons of evidence that youth participation is shrinking. Let me highlight this article:

http://leagueoffans.org/2012/12/12/youth-football-participation-dropping/

This part in particular:

"According to a recent report from the Sports & Fitness Industry Association, the number of kids, ages 6 to 12, playing football was down 35 percent in the four-year period from 2007 to 2011."

That's ONE THIRD fewer kids playing football in just four years. Like I will continue to say, if you don't think this issue is shrinking the talent pool for football you just aren't paying attention to the facts.

It's a damned good thing 6-12 year olds don't play professional football.

[BroncoWave]

It's a damned good thing 6-12 year olds don't play professional football.

:lol: You really don't understand do you? That 35% of 6-12 year olds who would have played football but didn't will soon become high schoolers who would have played football but didn't, then college and so on. If youth participation is shrinking by a third that means the participation in all levels will begin to shrink once those 6-12 year olds grow up. This isn't rocket science.

[BroncoWave]

Since CTE is also prevalent in soldiers exposed to blast/concussive forces, I don't see how the government can ethically continue to recruit armed forces members. It's simply too dangerous.

A military is necessary. Football isn't.

[wayninja]

A military is necessary. Football isn't.

That's debatable.

We don't need an economy either then?

[BroncoWave]

I mean seriously. Youth participation has already shrunk by a third and we are just beginning to find out all of this CTE stuff. If anyone thinks that trend is going to reverse itself anytime soon they are kidding themselves. It would not shock me one bit if in 20 years the NFL has fallen from it's perch of being the top sport in America. While the hard-hitting NFL of our childhood is fun to watch it appears to be too violent for the league's own good. Just google "youth football participation down" and you will find countless articles documenting stats of fewer kids playing.

[wayninja]

I mean seriously. Youth participation has already shrunk by a third and we are just beginning to find out all of this CTE stuff. If anyone thinks that trend is going to reverse itself anytime soon they are kidding themselves. It would not shock me one bit if in 20 years the NFL has fallen from it's perch of being the top sport in America. While the hard-hitting NFL of our childhood is fun to watch it appears to be too violent for the league's own good. Just google "youth football participation down" and you will find countless articles documenting stats of fewer kids playing.

The only thing that tells me is that parents don't find the rewards greater than the risks of allowing their children to play football. Since they are most likely earning a negative amount of money to allow their children to play, that seems to make sense to me.


As long as we pay athletes 7-8 figures, there will be a sufficient talent pool.

If Football dies in 20 years, it won't be because of a dwindling talent pool for fear of injury, it will be because changes to make the game 'safer' have also made it less popular resulting in an inability to sufficiently reward players for their risk.

[BroncoWave]

The only thing that tells me is that parents don't find the rewards greater than the risks of allowing their children to play football. Since they are most likely earning a negative amount of money to allow their children to play, that seems to make sense to me.


As long as we pay athletes 7-8 figures, there will be a sufficient talent pool.

You think those parents are going to magically start letting their kids play FB in high school?

Yes, there will still be a talent pool, but it will be a much smaller one. Basketball, baseball, soccer, and golf also pay millions of bucks at the highest level. It's not like football is the only thing that offers that. Those 1/3 of kids will likely play those other sports, and in 20-30 years you will begin to notice way more talent in those sports and way less in football.

On top of this, we don't even know if 1/3 will be the stopping point. We may find out in 4 more years youth participation is down 50%, then maybe 75% 4 years from that. No one knows for sure, but the fact is less and less kids are playing football and choosing other sports instead, and there is no doubt that will have an impact on the talent level of the NFL in the future.

[Hawgdriver]

Since CTE is also prevalent in soldiers exposed to blast/concussive forces, I don't see how the government can ethically continue to recruit armed forces members. It's simply too dangerous.

Not as dangerous as death, the thing that they tell you you are volunteering when you sign up in the service. Are you saying football should give informed consent to death before signing up?

[wayninja]

You think those parents are going to magically start letting their kids play FB in high school?

Yes, but not magically. High school kids have a much better idea of what the risks are compared to 6-12 year olds. Also, by this time, the sport is much more competitive and chances are this is where one would seriously consider whether or not they are going to play in college and/or shoot for a career. It's a much higher value proposition at this level.


Yes, there will still be a talent pool, but it will be a much smaller one. Basketball, baseball, soccer, and golf also pay millions of bucks at the highest level. It's not like football is the only thing that offers that. Those 1/3 of kids will likely play those other sports, and in 20-30 years you will begin to notice way more talent in those sports and way less in football.

That's silly. There's nothing but speculation in your argument here so I can't refute it. I speculate the opposite. Money will attract the talent.


On top of this, we don't even know if 1/3 will be the stopping point. We may find out in 4 more years youth participation is down 50%, then maybe 75% 4 years from that. No one knows for sure, but the fact is less and less kids are playing football and choosing other sports instead, and there is no doubt that will have an impact on the talent level of the NFL in the future.

Yep, we surely don't know what we don't know. I agree.

I still see no reason to panic about parents reacting to safety information for children not capable of understanding the risks themselves.

I find it far more alarming to think of what 'changes' they will make to the game in the name of 'safety' and what affects it will have on the sports future.

[wayninja]

Not as dangerous as death, the thing that they tell you you are volunteering when you sign up in the service. Are you saying football should give informed consent to death before signing up?

No, I'm saying anyone should get informed consent to death before being born.

I heard this alarming statistic that mortality rates are holding steady at 100%

http://www.theonion.com/articles/world-death-rate-holding-steady-at-100-percent,1670/

From the article:


Death, a metabolic affliction causing total shutdown of all life functions, has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.

and


"At this early date, I don't want to start making broad generalizations," Citizens for Safety's Robert Hemmlin said, "but it is beginning to seem possible that birth—as well as the subsequent life cycle that follows it—may be a serious safety risk for all those involved."

[BroncoJoe]

“If you want to prevent concussions, take the helmet off: Play old-school football with the leather helmets, no facemask,” Ward said. “When you put a helmet on you’re going to use it as a weapon, just like you use shoulder pads as a weapon.”

Hines Ward

[Krugan]

Im curious how many brain injuries there were in early football, that we just dont know about due to advances in technology and the lack of media coverage and breakdown of everything that is really important in the world.

[Poet]

You think that's a valid statement? If you take the helmets off and they play at full speed someone will die in the first week of football. Either that or you keep carting off players until you're out. Ward is the same guy who took a shot at Big Ben when he missed time because of a concussion.

[BeefStew25]

None of you guys were an unpaid intern for a real live NFL team. Just stop the conjecture, OK?

[Poet]

Beef, stop being a faggot.

[wayninja]

You think that's a valid statement? If you take the helmets off and they play at full speed someone will die in the first week of football. Either that or you keep carting off players until you're out. Ward is the same guy who took a shot at Big Ben when he missed time because of a concussion.

I'm game, how do we get Goodell on board?

[Poet]

I'm game, how do we get Goodell on board?

Tell him it will help protect the shield and the league's image. Those seem to be his favorite expressions.

[DenBronx]

They should just make the whole football field 5 yards, that way no one can get much of a running start.

Is that a start?? No???


Ok then have the players just take off their cleats so they get no traction or take off their helmets so they wont launch with their heads. In fact just take the ball away and play air football. Turn in more into WWE style and we will call it football entertainment. Dont even sell beer at the games so their is zero risk of someone acting stupid.


By the way, I stayed home all day because I didnt want to risk an injury at work today. Doubt I will have enough money to pay the mortgage next month but I'm sure the bank will understand.

[Dapper Dan]

Obama should tax us so that we can pay for proper healthcare for these pro athletes.

[Dapper Dan]

I like the post by the OP. It seemed to be ruined by a different poster implying that if you don't agree then you're a heartless *******.

[Dapper Dan]

Bass turd.

[Hawgdriver]

No, I'm saying anyone should get informed consent to death before being born.

I heard this alarming statistic that mortality rates are holding steady at 100%

http://www.theonion.com/articles/world-death-rate-holding-steady-at-100-percent,1670/

From the article:



and

Crazy. Nobody told me.

[Dapper Dan]

100% of all people who drink water will die.

[BeefStew25]

G Money's awesome opening post was ruined by boi with limited pubes.

[jhns]

This stuff is al pretty stupid. If you don't want to play football, don't. If you do, you are the one putting yourself in harms way.

These studies are retarded. How can people claim they don't know what happens with multiple cuncussions? We live in a country where boxing was huge for a long time, and now we add in sports like MMA. Has no one seen an ex-boxer before? Have you ever listened to one talk? We really are just learning, and needing tons of research to figure out that getting hit a lot is bad for the brain? How many boxers are bringing lawsuits? They are much worse off than football players...

This is all crap. They play ignorant in their attempt at a money grab. We all know what happens. You are the only one responsible for your choices. This entire thing is exactly what is wrong with this country now. No one wants to take resposibility for their actions. It is everyone elses fault...

[BroncoWave]

This stuff is al pretty stupid. If you don't want to play football, don't. If you do, you are the one putting yourself in harms way.

These studies are retarded. How can people claim they don't know what happens with multiple cuncussions? We live in a country where boxing was huge for a long time, and now we add in sports like MMA. Has no one seen an ex-boxer before? Have you ever listened to one talk? We really are just learning, and needing tons of research to figure out that getting hit a lot is bad for the brain? How many boxers are bringing lawsuits? They are much worse off than football players...

This is all crap. They play ignorant in their attempt at a money grab. We all know what happens. You are the only one responsible for your choices. This entire thing is exactly what is wrong with this country now. No one wants to take resposibility for their actions. It is everyone elses fault...

Exhibit A of the meathead attitude that will kill football in the next 20-30 years.

[jhns]

Exhibit A of the meathead attitude that will kill football in the next 20-30 years.

Yeah, every choice I make is your fault!

I played contact sports. I had multiple cuncussions. I don't feel the need to blame others for this because I wanted to play those sports. I get that many of you are entitled to everything and don't need to take resposibility for your actions. Good for you!

"Yeah I wanted to play and knew the risks. It is your fault that those risks played out!" I really just don't understand this stupidity.

You can stop being such a drama queen though. Football isn't going anywhere. Boxing and MMA are thousands of times worse for your health. Do you see them being shut down? Yeah, your drama queen attitude is pretty dumb.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, every choice I make is your fault!

I played contact sports. I had multiple cuncussions. I don't feel the need to blame others for this because I wanted to play those sports. I get that many of you are entitled to everything and don't need to take resposibility for your actions. Good for you!

"Yeah I wanted to play and knew the risks. It is your fault that those risks played out!" I really just don't understand this stupidity.

You can stop being such a drama queen though. Football isn't going anywhere. Boxing and MMA are thousands of times worse for your health. Do you see them being shut down? Yeah, your drama queen attitude is pretty dumb.

Google studies of youth football participation. It's down 35% from where it was 6-7 years ago. WAAAAYYYY more people are choosing not to play football than before. The NFL will still be around in 20-30 years, but all of these concussion dangers are driving kids to other sports in droves.

You can have your tough guy attitude all you want, but when the most talented athletes are playing baseball, basketball, and scoccer in 20 years instead of football you will be wishing people had been a little more receptive to change a little earlier.

[Poet]

BTB, no one is going to play soccer. Also, considering the racial breakdown of baseball, I'm not sure how many black guys are going to end up playing baseball. Your point has validity, I'm just saying.

[Rex]

Google studies of youth football participation. It's down 35% from where it was 6-7 years ago. WAAAAYYYY more people are choosing not to play football than before. The NFL will still be around in 20-30 years, but all of these concussion dangers are driving kids to other sports in droves.

You can have your tough guy attitude all you want, but when the most talented athletes are playing baseball, basketball, and scoccer in 20 years instead of football you will be wishing people had been a little more receptive to change a little earlier.

Soccer. LOL. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

[jhns]

Google studies of youth football participation. It's down 35% from where it was 6-7 years ago. WAAAAYYYY more people are choosing not to play football than before. The NFL will still be around in 20-30 years, but all of these concussion dangers are driving kids to other sports in droves.

You can have your tough guy attitude all you want, but when the most talented athletes are playing baseball, basketball, and scoccer in 20 years instead of football you will be wishing people had been a little more receptive to change a little earlier.

You are too much of a drama queen to take seriously.

For one, since when were they not doing anything about it? They moved kickoffs so there are hardly any returns. You can't hit defensless players. You can't hit in the head. You cant go near QBs. You can't touch players down field. They require helmets. They continually design safer helmets. They require pads. Etc... Etc... Etc...

So what exactly are you trying to claim? What changes need made that aren't turning the sport into flag football and that they aren't already making? Would football even be popular if it was always what you want it to be? Will it be as popular with those changes?

You just aren't making any sense here.

[BroncoWave]

BTB, no one is going to play soccer. Also, considering the racial breakdown of baseball, I'm not sure how many black guys are going to end up playing baseball. Your point has validity, I'm just saying.

Before Tiger Woods they thought a black man would never play golf either.

[rationalfan]

this thread has been corrupted by the same narrow, predetermined arguments that plague politics (both sides).

can we just agree that the issue of concussions in football is troubling? i think we can. it doesn't mean it's about money, blame, whatever. but these facts are true:

- concussions are bad for people. this is fact.
- studying the cause and effects of concussions is good for the long term health of players at every level of football/sports. this is fact.

what's wrong with that?

[BroncoWave]

You are too much of a drama queen to take seriously.

For one, since when were they not doing anything about it? They moved kickoffs so there are hardly any returns. You can't hit defensless players. You can't hit in the head. You cant go near QBs. You can't touch players down field. They require helmets. They continually design safer helmets. They require pads. Etc... Etc... Etc...

So what exactly are you trying to claim? What changes need made that aren't turning the sport into flag football and that they aren't already making? Would football even be popular if it was always what you want it to be? Will it be as popular with those changes?

You just aren't making any sense here.

I don't think there is much the NFL can do. Players are too big, strong, and fast for the NFL's own good now. One thing they could do though, that they have refused to so far, is make the new safer helmets they have out mandatory. Many players won't wear them because they think they look stupid.

[Poet]

Before Tiger Woods they thought a black man would never play golf either.

To be fair, how many black people golf? How many black guys are on the tour?

[jhns]

this thread has been corrupted by the same narrow, predetermined arguments that plague politics (both sides).

can we just agree that the issue of concussions in football is troubling? i think we can. it doesn't mean it's about money, blame, whatever. but these facts are true:

- concussions are bad for people. this is fact.
- studying the cause and effects of concussions is good for the long term health of players at every level of football/sports. this is fact.

what's wrong with that?

The problem is pretending that we don't know the effects and then sueing others because of them. We aren't in China. We aren't forcing people to play...

These studies are stupid though. Everyone knows what happens when you take too many blows to the head. Every single boxer who boxed for more than a few years has severe brain damage. You can just talk to any of them and see exactly what happens. Why are people acting surprised. by these studies? I'll tell you why. They want money and the NFL has it.

[Dapper Dan]

I'm not sure how the "if you play football, you're probably going to get hurt" argument is considered the opinion of a "meathead". A meathead would tell you to play regardless. Rat is right. You can't have an argument when people keep going to extremes and not really addressing what is actually said.

[Northman]

To be fair, how many black people golf? How many black guys are on the tour?

No shit. Its not like since Tiger went in that all of a sudden there is this mass desire for black men/women wanting to play golf. :lol:

[jhns]

I don't think there is much the NFL can do. Players are too big, strong, and fast for the NFL's own good now. One thing they could do though, that they have refused to so far, is make the new safer helmets they have out mandatory. Many players won't wear them because they think they look stupid.

Then what exactly are you arguing?

[Ravage!!!]

To be fair, how many black people golf? How many black guys are on the tour?

There were black players before Tiger... they just weren't as good as Tiger (obviously since no one ever has been).

[rationalfan]

The problem is pretending that we don't know the effects and then sueing others because of them. We aren't in China. We aren't forcing people to play...

These studies are stupid though. Everyone knows what happens when you take too many blows to the head. Every single boxer who boxed for more than a few years has severe brain damage. You can just talk to any of them and see exactly what happens. Why are people acting surprised. by these studies? I'll tell you why. They want money and the NFL has it.

perhaps the real problem is pretending we know all the effects.

[jhns]

perhaps the real problem is pretending we know all the effects.

If this is true, it will be easy for you to prove. They have been spending a LOT of money on these studies. Can you tell me one new thing they have learned about concussions that wasn't known before?

[BroncoWave]

The problem is pretending that we don't know the effects and then sueing others because of them. We aren't in China. We aren't forcing people to play...

These studies are stupid though. Everyone knows what happens when you take too many blows to the head. Every single boxer who boxed for more than a few years has severe brain damage. You can just talk to any of them and see exactly what happens. Why are people acting surprised. by these studies? I'll tell you why. They want money and the NFL has it.

The problem isn’t that NFL players didn’t know about the negative effects of head trauma. The problem is that up until very recently the NFL had pretty much no protocols to accurately diagnose concussions during games and keep players from going back out onto the field that were not healthy enough to do so. Players in the NFL are encouraged to play through pain. If teams were encouraging players to play though concussions and the NFL was doing nothing about it that is a huge problem and is very worthy of a lawsuit.

[BroncoWave]

Then what exactly are you arguing?

That the NFL is only doing what they are doing for safety now because of lawsuits, and that they still aren't doing enough. It's quite simple.

[jhns]

That the NFL is only doing what they are doing for safety now because of lawsuits, and that they still aren't doing enough. It's quite simple.

That isn't at all true. They were implementing safety rules long before these people started sueing. When football started, they played without helmets. People died on the field because it was so violent. Half the changes I named in the other post were from before this recent nonsense.

You just stated that you can't think of anything else for them to do that they aren't already doing. You then state that they aren't doing enough... I just don't get it.

As for your post above this, that is the players choice. I played through concussions as a teen. I saw others sit because of them. If you don't like the consequences, don't play. It is that simple. This sport grew into the biggest sport in this country because of the violence. The NFL wouldn't have all this money to get sued for if it wasn't for that violence. You can't get into a sport for the violence and then sue because of the violence. Well, you can, I will just look down on you for acting that way.

[NightTrainLayne]

Google studies of youth football participation. It's down 35% from where it was 6-7 years ago. WAAAAYYYY more people are choosing not to play football than before. The NFL will still be around in 20-30 years, but all of these concussion dangers are driving kids to other sports in droves.

You can have your tough guy attitude all you want, but when the most talented athletes are playing baseball, basketball, and scoccer in 20 years instead of football you will be wishing people had been a little more receptive to change a little earlier.

Google Soccer and Concussions and then continue calling folks "Meatheads".

Soccer leads to more concussions in High School athletes than Baseball, Basketball, Wrestling & Softball combined. And considering the lower numbers of HS athletes playing soccer, it's on a par with Football.

[BroncoWave]

Google Soccer and Concussions and then continue calling folks "Meatheads".

Soccer leads to more concussions in High School athletes than Baseball, Basketball, Wrestling & Softball combined. And considering the lower numbers of HS athletes playing soccer, it's on a par with Football.

Congratulations on nailing me on soccer, although you completely missed my point. Studies are already showing that WAY fewer kids are playing football. Which sports they ultimately migrate to is irrelevant. My point is that the longer concussions are a big issue in football, the more kids who will stop playing, and the worse off the NFL will be for it in years to come. You can all bury your heads in the sand and say I'm wrong, but statistics are showing that I am correct. Unless the study I cited in this thread just made up the fact that participation in youth football has decreased by 35%.

Seriously though, just google it. You will find article after article about how towns are having to reduce the size of youth football leagues because they are suddenly having a hard time finding enough players to fill them. Parents for the most part aren't stupid. They see what is going on and are directing their kids elsewhere. And the President saying he wouldn't let his kids play football also sends a pretty loud message that parents across America will hear.

New rules on safety may make the game less fun to watch for some of you, but it's the best step the NFL can take to protect itself and make sure that they keep a good talent level coming in for years to come.

[rationalfan]

If this is true, it will be easy for you to prove. They have been spending a LOT of money on these studies. Can you tell me one new thing they have learned about concussions that wasn't known before?

interesting response. makes me think a few things:

1. personally, i don't know the specifics of what they've learned. i haven't studied the reports. plus it's hard to answer that because ...

2. what's your comparative baseline? i mean, "new" is a relative term. are you weighing the recent concussion studies against findings from last year? last decade? last millennium? it's going to be a different set of values (info, study credibility, etc.) each time. again, i haven't studied these recent reports, but the information we're getting now is different than 10, 20, 50 years ago because the technology to study the body is improving. you posted earlier that "everyone" knows hitting your head is bad for you. this is mostly true. but we don't always know WHY it's bad for us. this is what the new studies are trying to answer. when we understand how concussions, or any injury/malady, truly affect us we can create better ways to protect us from these injuries.

3. again, this thread goes back to the money. yes, scientific studies cost a lot of money. but whose money is it? yours? mine? no. the nfl's? maybe, i'm not sure about that. most likely it's a university or private company. that money wasn't going to affect you or I. but the results of how that money is spent will.

[rationalfan]

When football started, they played without helmets. People died on the field because it was so violent.

source? not saying you're wrong, just saying i haven't heard that, especially as an effect of no helmets.


As for your post above this, that is the players choice. I played through concussions as a teen. I saw others sit because of them. If you don't like the consequences, don't play. It is that simple. This sport grew into the biggest sport in this country because of the violence. The NFL wouldn't have all this money to get sued for if it wasn't for that violence. You can't get into a sport for the violence and then sue because of the violence. Well, you can, I will just look down on you for acting that way.

i get your point. i also played high school football, and was concussed. like you, i realized this and stayed in the game. my choice. however, another time a teammate was concussed so badly not only was he unable to realize he was concussed, he couldn't determine if he was playing offense or defense - while he was on the field (dude asked me between plays). THIS is the problem with your argument. Concussions aren't like broken bones, they can cloud judgement/perception. it's not as easy as tasking the blame on the people who decided to play. wish it were.

[Northman]

Concussions aren't like broken bones, they can cloud judgement/perception. it's not as easy as tasking the blame on the people who decided to play. wish it were.

And unfortuantely the only problem with this is there is no way to truly determine who has a concussion and who doesnt. A player could have a concussion and yet tell the doctors he is fine and go back in which i know has probably happened. Vice versa you probably had a slew of trainers or doctors tell the guys they are ok and sent them back in. They can do study after study and still not be 100% on the symptoms because unless your a mind reader there is no definitive way to tell. But at this point trying to prove the league purposely sent guys back out who had concussions without truly knowing if they did or didnt is slim at best.

[Dapper Dan]

source? not saying you're wrong, just saying i haven't heard that, especially as an effect of no helmets.



i get your point. i also played high school football, and was concussed. like you, i realized this and stayed in the game. my choice. however, another time a teammate was concussed so badly not only was he unable to realize he was concussed, he couldn't determine if he was playing offense or defense - while he was on the field (dude asked me between plays). THIS is the problem with your argument. Concussions aren't like broken bones, they can cloud judgement/perception. it's not as easy as tasking the blame on the people who decided to play. wish it were.

Dang. That's messed up that you didn't step up and make sure your teammate stayed on the sidelines. Young Rational was irrational.

[jhns]

source? not saying you're wrong, just saying i haven't heard that, especially as an effect of no helmets.



i get your point. i also played high school football, and was concussed. like you, i realized this and stayed in the game. my choice. however, another time a teammate was concussed so badly not only was he unable to realize he was concussed, he couldn't determine if he was playing offense or defense - while he was on the field (dude asked me between plays). THIS is the problem with your argument. Concussions aren't like broken bones, they can cloud judgement/perception. it's not as easy as tasking the blame on the people who decided to play. wish it were.

Here is a good story about when they started changing the game for safety reasons. It wasn't no helmets as much as just not real helmets. They did put a slab of leather on their heads.

http://symonsez.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/when-a-president-threatened-to-abolish-football-in-the-united-states/

" The death toll rose to 33 in 1909 (The NY Times via the Chicago Tribune claimed 26 deaths at the time) and it was that year, specifically a game between Harvard and Yale in November 1909, that veteran sportswriter Frank Deford says was the real turning point in the sport. So, in 1910, new rules were implemented that made the line of scrimmage requirement 7 men and reduced the reward for a field goal to 3 points. By 1912, the touchdown was changed to 6 points. Pushing and pulling the ball carrier was disallowed and players running interlocked interference was banned. The flying tackle, which called for a tackler to leave his feet, was also put on the shelf."


As for your second paragraph, I get all of that. That kid still made his choice when he put on the pads. If he sued because of it, I would look down on him. That situation was his doing.

You can't claim people didn't know how bad head injuries were for you. There is even a saying for people who do something stupid: "Did you bump your head?" It has been well known that bumping your head causes brain damage. It is also well known that you are likely to bump your head a lot in football.

Just to clarify, I am not arguing against all changes to help player safety. I don't agree with some, but that isn't what I have argued. I am only saying that it isn't right to sue after one of your own choices resulted in a bad situation. I am saying that everyone knows what they are signing up for and those concussions are their own fault. They ae a result of a choice they made.

[rationalfan]

Dang. That's messed up that you didn't step up and make sure your teammate stayed on the sidelines. Young Rational was irrational.

i did. he was playing, i took him to the sidelines and told the coaches. it was done.

[wayninja]

I for one will never buy into this fiction that repeated, violent blows to the head can have health consequences later in life. We simply haven't done the research.

[wayninja]

source? not saying you're wrong, just saying i haven't heard that, especially as an effect of no helmets.

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/American_Football_DEATHS#.URwAD6V9J8E

[rationalfan]

You can't claim people didn't know how bad head injuries were for you. There is even a saying for people who do something stupid: "Did you bump your head?" It has been well known that bumping your head causes brain damage. It is also well known that you are likely to bump your head a lot in football.

i don't agree with that. there's still a very wide gap between educated and uneducated people. while "everyone" might know hitting your head is bad (because of the pain response) the degrees of how that hit affects people isn't as well known.


Just to clarify, I am not arguing against all changes to help player safety. I don't agree with some, but that isn't what I have argued. I am only saying that it isn't right to sue after one of your own choices resulted in a bad situation. I am saying that everyone knows what they are signing up for and those concussions are their own fault. They ae a result of a choice they made.

i respect your opinion, but don't agree. for instance, i work in an office. it's a job i applied for, one i "signed up for." one i knew would require many hours sitting in a chair. but if the chair i'm sitting in, the one supplied to me and OK'd by the people who own the company, caused me injury is the injury my fault just because i wanted this job? even if i reported the faulty chair and it wasn't acknowledged by the people above me? i don't think so.

listen, your point has a lot of validity. and the one i just shared could be shot down - pretty easily, i believe. and that's the problem with the concussions issue, it's not a black and white topic. it's not just personal accountability. it's not just scientific discoveries. it's an issue with layers and layers of nuances.

[Dapper Dan]

Has Troy Aikman sued Jerry Jones yet?

[jhns]

i don't agree with that. there's still a very wide gap between educated and uneducated people. while "everyone" might know hitting your head is bad (because of the pain response) the degrees of how that hit affects people isn't as well known.



i respect your opinion, but don't agree. for instance, i work in an office. it's a job i applied for, one i "signed up for." one i knew would require many hours sitting in a chair. but if the chair i'm sitting in, the one supplied to me and OK'd by the people who own the company, caused me injury is the injury my fault just because i wanted this job? even if i reported the faulty chair and it wasn't acknowledged by the people above me? i don't think so.

listen, your point has a lot of validity. and the one i just shared could be shot down - pretty easily, i believe. and that's the problem with the concussions issue, it's not a black and white topic. it's not just personal accountability. it's not just scientific discoveries. it's an issue with layers and layers of nuances.

Anybody who doesn't realize how bad cuncussions are won't miss those brain cells anyways... Again, boxing was one of the biggest sports in this country for a long time. Do you know anyone that hasn't heard or seen old boxers with brain damage? Who exactly do you know that doesn't understand why these guys have brain damage? This plead of ignorance is just silly. You are claiming people are much dumber than they actually are.

Does that office have a history of producing injuries? Did you sign up knowing that? If so, it is your fault.

[Ravage!!!]

i don't agree with that. there's still a very wide gap between educated and uneducated people. while "everyone" might know hitting your head is bad (because of the pain response) the degrees of how that hit affects people isn't as well known.



i respect your opinion, but don't agree. for instance, i work in an office. it's a job i applied for, one i "signed up for." one i knew would require many hours sitting in a chair. but if the chair i'm sitting in, the one supplied to me and OK'd by the people who own the company, caused me injury is the injury my fault just because i wanted this job? even if i reported the faulty chair and it wasn't acknowledged by the people above me? i don't think so.

listen, your point has a lot of validity. and the one i just shared could be shot down - pretty easily, i believe. and that's the problem with the concussions issue, it's not a black and white topic. it's not just personal accountability. it's not just scientific discoveries. it's an issue with layers and layers of nuances.

You think this is the same thing as signing up for a sport BASED on collisions? Thats a terrible example to make in comparison to football. Sitting in a chair and the chair turned out to be bad?

How many people have suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome? Many many have been afflicted with this condition because of the position of hands while typing all day long at an office. Yet, today, there are thousands upon thousands of people that decide to type all day at their job...DESPITE knowing the dangers that come along with such an activity. Now they might experiment with different keyboards, chairs, positions of their keyboard in relation to their hands, blah blah blah...but there is still the risk that they might develop some complications later on due to the nature of their job.

Should the victims of carpal tunnel syndrome sue the company for making them type all day long despite them KNOWING the very NATURE of the job is to type all day long?

The very BASIC nature of football is to tackle the player with the ball. That's pretty self explanatory as to what will happen while playing the game. There isn't any kind of "surprise" to it. There isn't any "shocking" news about the chair they were sitting in (to use your example). They don't sign up to play football and then are led out onto the field to be STUNNED by the fact that they are asked to run at full speed and run into another person doing the same thing. EVERYONE knows, and has known for the last 100 years, that football is a dangerous sport.

[NightTrainLayne]

Congratulations on nailing me on soccer, although you completely missed my point. Studies are already showing that WAY fewer kids are playing football. Which sports they ultimately migrate to is irrelevant. My point is that the longer concussions are a big issue in football, the more kids who will stop playing, and the worse off the NFL will be for it in years to come. You can all bury your heads in the sand and say I'm wrong, but statistics are showing that I am correct. Unless the study I cited in this thread just made up the fact that participation in youth football has decreased by 35%.

Seriously though, just google it. You will find article after article about how towns are having to reduce the size of youth football leagues because they are suddenly having a hard time finding enough players to fill them. Parents for the most part aren't stupid. They see what is going on and are directing their kids elsewhere. And the President saying he wouldn't let his kids play football also sends a pretty loud message that parents across America will hear.

New rules on safety may make the game less fun to watch for some of you, but it's the best step the NFL can take to protect itself and make sure that they keep a good talent level coming in for years to come.

I didnt really miss your point.

When I was growing up there was no such thing as youth football. At least not in my corner of the world. First time you could participate was 7th Grade. The NFL did fine then and before without youth leagues.

If High School and College go away, then yes, the NFL will likely have to fold, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over Youth leagues. And I myself wouldn't let my kiddo play in a youth league. I just don't think kids that young are ready for full-contact football for a variety of reasons besides and in addition to concussions. I would however, at this time let my son play Jr High, and High School based on what I know right now. If he gets concussed then re-evaluate the decision.

As I've said from the beginning. If the NFL hid information on this issue, then they're in deep trouble, and it will cost them a pretty penny. But right now, I don't see the overwhelming evidence that will ultimately lead to the demise of the league. It may happen as we learn more, but what we know now won't accomplish that.

Hopefully, it does lead to safer equipment, and common-sense rules to help lessen the chances of severe concussions.

[BroncoWave]

I didnt really miss your point.

When I was growing up there was no such thing as youth football. At least not in my corner of the world. First time you could participate was 7th Grade. The NFL did fine then and before without youth leagues.

If High School and College go away, then yes, the NFL will likely have to fold, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over Youth leagues. And I myself wouldn't let my kiddo play in a youth league. I just don't think kids that young are ready for full-contact football for a variety of reasons besides and in addition to concussions. I would however, at this time let my son play Jr High, and High School based on what I know right now. If he gets concussed then re-evaluate the decision.

As I've said from the beginning. If the NFL hid information on this issue, then they're in deep trouble, and it will cost them a pretty penny. But right now, I don't see the overwhelming evidence that will ultimately lead to the demise of the league. It may happen as we learn more, but what we know now won't accomplish that.

Hopefully, it does lead to safer equipment, and common-sense rules to help lessen the chances of severe concussions.

Maybe some of the parents holding their kids out of youth football will let them play later, but do you think all of them will? I don't. And the fact that these kids will be exposed to sports other than football may lead to them liking those sports and not even giving football a try. While 35% may not be an accurate representation of how many people will never play football compared to before, the number is undeniably shrinking at least somewhat.

As for safer equipment, there ARE safer helmets that have been produced than what the NFL currently uses, but the NFL has not yet mandated them. I'm not really sure what the holdup on that is. Given all the lawsuits and public pressure, I would make those helmets mandatory yesterday.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the exaggeration of the parents not letting their kids play football beause of the dangers is at the all-time high right now because of the talk.

Better not let your kid play hockey. Better not let your kid ride horses or be a cheerleader. CERTAINLY never let your kid do down-hill skiing of any sort, or... let your kid come CLOSE to doing the pole vault.

Never let your kid drive a car or ride a bike in the woods. Never let your kid dirt-bike race, jet-ski, or get involved in martial arts. Don't let them get involved in the military, police forces, or become a fire-fighter.

[zbeg]

Not all dangers are created equally. There's a risk if you get behind the wheel of your car that you might die. There's a higher risk of death if you get behind the wheel of your car and you're drunk or you haven't slept in three days. So when you say "I'm not going to leave my house lol I really got you lol I'm so smart" you're not actually being that smart.

Football is more dangerous than leaving your house or playing basketball or playing golf, and parents know that. Unless you fix the safety issue in football, football will become relegated to minor league status the way boxing and horse racing became despite being huge in the 70s.

[BroncoWave]

I think the exaggeration of the parents not letting their kids play football beause of the dangers is at the all-time high right now because of the talk.

Better not let your kid play hockey. Better not let your kid ride horses or be a cheerleader. CERTAINLY never let your kid do down-hill skiing of any sort, or... let your kid come CLOSE to doing the pole vault.

Never let your kid drive a car or ride a bike in the woods. Never let your kid dirt-bike race, jet-ski, or get involved in martial arts. Don't let them get involved in the military, police forces, or become a fire-fighter.

None of what you just posted is relevant to the facts. Regardless of how dangerous anything else is, youth football participation is still down by a third. You can call the reasons for it stupid all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's happening.

[Nomad]

Maybe some of the parents holding their kids out of youth football will let them play later, but do you think all of them will? I don't. And the fact that these kids will be exposed to sports other than football may lead to them liking those sports and not even giving football a try. While 35% may not be an accurate representation of how many people will never play football compared to before, the number is undeniably shrinking at least somewhat.

As for safer equipment, there ARE safer helmets that have been produced than what the NFL currently uses, but the NFL has not yet mandated them. I'm not really sure what the holdup on that is. Given all the lawsuits and public pressure, I would make those helmets mandatory yesterday.


Jim Harbaugh was asked that question regarding Obama's comments and Jim made a good point.......less competition for his son:lol:.

[BroncoWave]

Jim Harbaugh was asked that question regarding Obama's comments and Jim made a good point.......less competition for his son:lol:.

Which is exactly my point. The less people who play football, the less competition there is, and the smaller the talent pool.

[Dapper Dan]

None of what you just posted is relevant to the facts. Regardless of how dangerous anything else is, youth football participation is still down by a third. You can call the reasons for it stupid all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's happening.

The reason for something must be accounted for in anything. You can't blindly look at numbers out of context and form a fair opinion.

[BroncoWave]

The reason for something must be accounted for in anything. You can't blindly look at numbers out of context and form a fair opinion.

I'm all ears for a more valid opinion of why youth football participation has dropped by a third other than because of safety concerns.

[zbeg]

The reason for something must be accounted for in anything. You can't blindly look at numbers out of context and form a fair opinion.

How has this been taken out of context? Kids are playing less football. By a lot. Why? And what effect will this have on football's future?

[Nomad]

Which is exactly my point. The less people who play football, the less competition there is, and the smaller the talent pool.

True! Like I said before in this thread, I'm more concerned with my oldest son pitching at the high school level than playing football, but he loves it. Same with playing corner, he decided to take on a 6'0" 240lb FB last year and my heart dropped when the collision happened, but he bounced back up. He's grown since football season and was at 120lb 5'4" and now at 132lb and 5'61/2".

[Dapper Dan]

How has this been taken out of context? Kids are playing less football. By a lot. Why? And what effect will this have on football's future?

You ask questions on the subject, which I think is good. It's god to know why a stat might be the way it is, the context of the stat.

Is participation down because football is more rough than it used to be or is out down because there's a panic, fueled by the media and others?

[Dapper Dan]

I'm all ears for a more valid opinion of why youth football participation has dropped by a third other than because of safety concerns.

Panic.

[BroncoWave]

Panic.

Yes, panic about safety concerns.

[Dapper Dan]

Yes, panic about safety concerns.

Yes.

But the game has always been dangerous. I think the stats are low because of panic caused by the whole idea spreading and parents overreacting. Maybe some are rational, maybe some aren't.

[BroncoWave]

Yes.

But the game has always been dangerous. I think the stats are low because of panic caused by the whole idea spreading and parents overreacting. Maybe some are rational, maybe some aren't.

Who cares if they are rational or not? Like I have said, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference why parents aren't letting their kids play football. The only thing that matters is that they aren't letting them. The only thing that will stem those concerns is if the NFL keeps on the path it has started of making the game MUCH safer.

And I know a lot of fans don't like that because they see it as weakening football or turning it into "flag football" but it's the only thing that will keep the NFL a viable league for years to come.

[Nomad]

Yes.

But the game has always been dangerous. I think the stats are low because of panic caused by the whole idea spreading and parents overreacting. Maybe some are rational, maybe some aren't.

I can understand parents being concerned at the high school level, but pee wee. We have a friend whose little boy wants to play tackle (he's in the 3rd grade) and they told him no. I'm trying to convince them that pee wee is harmless and the boy will find out if he likes football or not especially the conditioning.

[Dapper Dan]

Who cares if they are rational or not? Like I have said, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference why parents aren't letting their kids play football. The only thing that matters is that they aren't letting them. The only thing that will stem those concerns is if the NFL keeps on the path it has started of making the game MUCH safer.

And I know a lot of fans don't like that because they see it as weakening football or turning it into "flag football" but it's the only thing that will keep the NFL a viable league for years to come.

Why someone does something will always be important, whether you want to accept it or not..

[BroncoWave]

Why someone does something will always be important, whether you want to accept it or not..

The answer is obvious as to why. We both agree that it's because of how parents feel about safety issues. I'm not sure why you are continuing to talk in circles.

My point is the only way to change those parents minds is to bring football to an acceptable level of safety. You know it as well as I do whether you like it or not.

[Poet]

BTB, fight the power of reductionism! I believe in you for you are my friend.

[wayninja]

I hope archie lets peyton play next year.

[Superchop 7]

Football at the collegiate level produces the greatest amount of catastrophic injuries compared with any other sport, according to the Annual Survey of Catastrophic Football Injuries. The majority of catastrophic football injuries are associated with defensive players blocking and tackling.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/369537-percentage-statistics-for-football-players-serious-injury/#ixzz2KsIFTEYg

[Superchop 7]

Between 2001 and 2005, U.S. males of all ages made an estimated 1,060,823 emergency room visits with football-related injuries, according to an analysis of data from the National Electronic Injury Surveillance System-All Injury Program performed by the Injury Prevention Center at Rhode Island Hospital. The results, reported in the March 2009 issue of the journal "Academic Emergency Medicine," showed that for boys 7 to 11, 29 percent presented with fractures or dislocations and 27 percent with sprains or strains. In the 12-to-17-year-old age group, 31 percent presented with sprains or strains and 29 percent with fractures or dislocations

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/369537-percentage-statistics-for-football-players-serious-injury/#ixzz2KsIgDkv2

[Superchop 7]

Gridiron Heroes Spinal Cord Injury Foundation provides immediate, as well as, long term resources and support to individuals sustaining a catastrophic spinal cord injury through activities associated with high school football.

(Getting to my pet peeve in football, high schools that do not insure the kids for catastrophic injury)

[Dapper Dan]

The answer is obvious as to why. We both agree that it's because of how parents feel about safety issues. I'm not sure why you are continuing to talk in circles.

My point is the only way to change those parents minds is to bring football to an acceptable level of safety. You know it as well as I do whether you like it or not.

It's obvious as to why. Yes. It's because of the whole safety talk that plagues football right now. It has nothing to do with the actual safety itself. It is because of former players doing stupid things because of brain injury. When maybe 1% of high school players go on to play college football and less than 1% of those go to the NFL, how does that have anything to do with a kid playing pee wee? Participation is down because of panic, not because the sport is dangerous. Football is safer than it used to be, so wouldn't it make more sense if participation increased? This is what panic does to people. It scares them out of doing something.

Nascar went through the same thing, but it seems to have passed.

[jhns]

Which is exactly my point. The less people who play football, the less competition there is, and the smaller the talent pool.

Isnt that exactly what you want? I really dont get your complaining. You say you want to see it safer. You can't think of anything to make it safer and complain that the problem is the size and speed of the game. You then complain that the game won't be as talented now. This is the solution to your problem with the game though. So what gives? Why are you complaining about the problem and the solution? Do you not realize that you aren't making any sense?

As for why participation is down, you simply dont know. Spouting off random theories wont help your argument. Here is a theory that I see playing out with my nephews. Kids these days have a shit ton of entertainment options. Far fewer of them get into sports because they would rather be doing something digital. We wouldn't have such a high childhood obesity problem if they were out playing sports. This alone proves your entire theory is a joke.

[BroncoWave]

Isnt that exactly what you want? I really dont get your complaining. You say you want to see it safer. You can't think of anything to make it safer and complain that the problem is the size and speed of the game. You then complain that the game won't be as talented now. This is the solution to your problem with the game though. So what gives? Why are you complaining about the problem and the solution? Do you not realize that you aren't making any sense?

As for why participation is down, you simply dont know. Spouting off random theories wont help your argument. Here is a theory that I see playing out with my nephews. Kids these days have a shit ton of entertainment options. Far fewer of them get into sports because they would rather be doing something digital. We wouldn't have such a high childhood obesity problem if they were out playing sports. This alone proves your entire theory is a joke.

Can you read? I have said multiple times in this thread that there are safer helmets out than the NFL uses, but they for some reason refuse to make the players wear them.

And kids have had tons of entertainment options and been fat WAAAYYYYY before the data in this poll was taken. Those are both gradual things that have progressed over time. Not enough to make it plummet by 1/3 in just a few years.

You are being willfully ignorant if you think the reason for the decline is because of anything other than safety issues.

[Dapper Dan]

I think it's a little silly to solely blame the NFL for not mandating the safer helmets. I also think they should, but these athletes are supposed to be grown men, not children. If there's a safer helmet out there, you should WANT to wear it. You shouldn't wait until you're forced to wear it. I think it goes back to personal responsibility.

[Northman]

I think it goes back to personal responsibility.

What is that? Does that even exist in America?

[jhns]

Can you read? I have said multiple times in this thread that there are safer helmets out than the NFL uses, but they for some reason refuse to make the players wear them.

And kids have had tons of entertainment options and been fat WAAAYYYYY before the data in this poll was taken. Those are both gradual things that have progressed over time. Not enough to make it plummet by 1/3 in just a few years.

You are being willfully ignorant if you think the reason for the decline is because of anything other than safety issues.

You said exactly what I claimed. I can show you the post.

So helmets will fix the problems. That is all they have to do to make you stop crying? Why do I doubt that... How does that fix your too big and fast theory? Please explain. It sure seems like when you said it, you didn't think so...

You are being a huge drama queen and making crap up. Your theory is no better than mine. Show me these studies. I want to see one that says the decrease happened all at once. I want to see one that explains that decline wasn't happening before your few year time frame.

The fat and digital problems were not gradual. Is that a joke? There was a HUGE spike in both from the late 90s to now.

You don't really have a problem with the violence though. If you did, you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't watch and support it. So stop crying.

[Dapper Dan]

What is that? Does that even exist in America?

Because it usually doesn't end well. If you take the blame, you're going to get the blame. It's better to deny any responsibility and hope to get by.

[BroncoWave]

You said exactly what I claimed. I can show you the post.

So helmets will fix the problems. That is all they have to do to make you stop crying? Why do I doubt that... How does that fix your too big and fast theory? Please explain. It sure seems like when you said it, you didn't think so...

You are being a huge drama queen and making crap up. Your theory is no better than mine. Show me these studies. I want to see one that says the decrease happened all at once. I want to see one that explains that decline wasn't happening before your few year time frame.

The fat and digital problems were not gradual. Is that a joke? There was a HUGE spike in both from the late 90s to now.

You don't really have a problem with the violence though. If you did, you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't watch and support it. So stop crying.

I said there is ALMOST nothing they can do since the players are getting bigger, faster and stronger. I didn't say there is absolutely nothing they can do. I was simply inferring that it would be difficult. Difficulty isn't an excuse for lack of action though.

Reading comprehension really isn't your friend.

[DenBronx]

Obama thinks football is too brutal for men but women should be allowed in combat.

[wayninja]

The answer is obvious as to why. We both agree that it's because of how parents feel about safety issues. I'm not sure why you are continuing to talk in circles.

My point is the only way to change those parents minds is to bring football to an acceptable level of safety. You know it as well as I do whether you like it or not.

speaking of talking in circles... what is an acceptable level of safety, exactly?

[Dapper Dan]

speaking of talking in circles... what is an acceptable level of safety, exactly?

My guess, seven.

[Poet]

It would be a level where the game is still good and the players are protected as well as they can be without gutting the game.

[wayninja]

It would be a level where the game is still good and the players are protected as well as they can be without gutting the game.

Feels like we are already VERY close to that point, with some minor room for equipment improvement and rules tweaks. But we are nowhere near a 'safe' game.

[BroncoJoe]

Define safe.

[Poet]

Feels like we are already VERY close to that point, with some minor room for equipment improvement and rules tweaks. But we are nowhere near a 'safe' game.

It's a matter of perception. I think it's a linear thing and it will continue to improve in terms of medical technology and equipment. I am opposed to things like widening the field.

[Ravage!!!]

I still say we just move teh sport to flag football. 7 on 7. Think of the talent on each team if we are narrowing the pool down!!

[Ravage!!!]

They could wear those full body, super slick, tights so that no clothing has a chance of getting accidently "snagged." 3 OL (one of which CAN be eligible to catch passes), 3 WR, and 1 QB vs any combination of defenders you want. If you want to rush the QB, then you get a max of 3 rushing players at one time. If you want the LB to rush, then another player can't move forward towards the LoS. If you want a corner blitz..then the DL has to move away from the LoS. If you want 7 DBs trying to defensd the 3 WRs... ok.

4 downs to get to half field, and the next four downs to get to the endzone, UNLESS you choose to punt/FG.

[wayninja]

It's a matter of perception. I think it's a linear thing and it will continue to improve in terms of medical technology and equipment. I am opposed to things like widening the field.

Yeah, I agree that it will constantly improve, but the returns are already diminishing as most of the low hanging fruit is addressed.

The nature of the game is such that it is (and I would argue that it actually needs to be) somewhat dangerous.

[zbeg]

Define safe.

Roughly the same injury rate and severity as basketball and baseball I think is a reasonable standard.

[Dapper Dan]

Roughly the same injury rate and severity as basketball and baseball I think is a reasonable standard.

Lol.

[dogfish]

Roughly the same injury rate and severity as basketball and baseball I think is a reasonable standard.

you're joking?

yea, i'm going to assume so, because that's obviously nowhere close to possible for tackle football. . .



you were joking, right?

[dogfish]

Define safe.

safe means having a safe word. . . duh. . .

[zbeg]

you're joking?

yea, i'm going to assume so, because that's obviously nowhere close to possible for tackle football. . .



you were joking, right?

Not joking, but realized I omitted a word. I meant to say "catastrophic injury." Basketball actually has the highest injury rate among the three IIRC, but the injuries tend to be minor. So football's already got a lower injury rate than basketball! Mission accomplished.

[dogfish]

Not joking, but realized I omitted a word. I meant to say "catastrophic injury." Basketball actually has the highest injury rate among the three IIRC, but the injuries tend to be minor. So football's already got a lower injury rate than basketball! Mission accomplished.

ah, yea. . . fairly significant difference, there. . . :laugh:

[zbeg]

ah, yea. . . fairly significant difference, there. . . :laugh:

just a little :P one word makes a big difference.

[Dapper Dan]

http://www.lflus.com/clevelandcrush

Why are they using the name, Crush? I don't like that. I'm trying to pick out a team to follow. I was close, but it irks me that Cleveland picked that nickname.