View Full Version : Good to know our D-line is still a joke
eessydo
11-13-2007, 10:17 AM
This one comes from Don Banks of si.com:
Just wondering, but if Simeon Rice makes the Hall of Fame, will he go in as a Bronco? Talk about falling off the radar screen. After generating a few headlines this preseason when he was scouting around for a team, that wound up being all Rice produced in Denver. To be honest, I forgot he was even with the Broncos this year until, well, he wasn't any more. Denver released him the other day, and you can add his name to the list of swings and misses that Mike Shanahan has made when it comes to signing veteran defensive linemen in recent years.
Hard to argue with that one.
:defense::rofl:
There are a couple bright spots in our d-line every year. By and large, Shanahanaramjamahahnana has made quite a few bad personnel decisions regarding our D-line. IMO, we have the personnel right now to make our D-line very good, it's just a matter of getting the right scheme inserted.
Hard to argue with that article though. Even when Simeon was in the game, he didn't do jack.
eessydo
11-13-2007, 10:29 AM
Hard to argue with that article though. Even when Simeon was in the game, he didn't do jack.
Then you are agreeing (not arguing) with the article, because that is also what it said.
Then you are agreeing (not arguing) with the article, because that is also what it said.
I'm agreeing. Denver's D line hasn't been very good the past couple of years. I've been impressed with them the past couple of games though, going back to the game vs Pitt. As it sits right now, our defense is still ranked last against the run, but it's getting better. We'll probably be bottom 5 for the rest of the year, but tha'ts because of the giant hole we dug ourselves in to earlier in the year, so some teams might be surprised when they can't run on us as well as they thought they could as the year goes on.
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 10:36 AM
There are a couple bright spots in our d-line every year. By and large, Shanahanaramjamahahnana has made quite a few bad personnel decisions regarding our D-line. IMO, we have the personnel right now to make our D-line very good, it's just a matter of getting the right scheme inserted.
Hard to argue with that article though. Even when Simeon was in the game, he didn't do jack.
Outside of Dumervil last year I can't remember that last bright spot in DEN, Hayward and the other guy but they had a year and were gone. and then price who only played when being called out by coach and teammates.
Not much to crow about since Superbowl 8 years ago.
It all boils down to making the DL a priority mikey has been content with has beens.
topscribe
11-13-2007, 10:51 AM
The only real mistake in recent years was Warren, and that was in the fat
contract they gave him when he re-upped, not in his acquisition. The prices
the Broncos have paid in these linemen were pretty small for what they got.
Warren, Myers, and Lang were serviceable and filled some holes for a while.
Courtney Brown's contributions would have been immense, but for a career-
ending injury. Ekuban is still with them as a very good DE, although he is
recovering from injury.
Where I became :mad: , was when they gave that big, fat contract to Graham,
good as he is, after letting Abraham go on down the road. But even I was
wrong, in that they need DTs, not DEs. At least, that was the case until Moss
went down.
Regarding Rice, I thought that was a good gamble because he was the best
DE the league had seen since Reggie White hung 'em up. If he would not
have been over the hill . . . which no one could foresee, even him . . . he
would have teamed with Dumervil in making the D-line a fearsome pass-
rushing force.
One can look at any team in the league and see that personnel acquisitions
come and go. It's hit and miss. That's the nature of the beast, as they say.
-----
This is just my observation, but I could be wrong...
I think the fact that our defense has been consistently getting pressure on the QB all year is being severely overshadowed by the fact that our defense has been so bad against the run.
As we get better against the run, more QBs will be pressured to pass, and our defensive numbers will get better in both turnovers and run D.
eessydo
11-13-2007, 11:16 AM
If he would not have been over the hill . . . which no one could foresee, even him . . .
Tampa Bay foresaw it, and they have been much better at defensive personnel decisions than Denver over the last 10 years. They ditched him because they could see they needed to move on. What player, may I ask, who still thinks they can play would foresee their own downfall? Sometimes in life you have to look to others because you are in too deep personnaly to understand that you have given it everything you had and it is time to hang up the shoes.
One can look at any team in the league and see that personnel acquisitions
come and go. It's hit and miss. That's the nature of the beast, as they say.
-----
True, and every team needs to understand that they are better at evaluating some positions over others. We seem to have a knack at Offensive linemen, linebackers and tight ends. We have struggled with D-line, receivers. We have significantly improved with DB's since we pulled in Champ.
RB's are arguable, we have had some superstars and some servicable backs that could not thrive in any other system. So I would say that even though we have had great success there, we also have had some decent players in our system, that would have been failures in other systems (droughns and tatum bell come to mind).
Tampa can find defense, but struggles on the offensive side of the ball. So we should trust that they are dumping him for a reason, and have the sense to stay away.
topscribe
11-13-2007, 11:48 AM
Tampa Bay foresaw it, and they have been much better at defensive personnel decisions than Denver over the last 10 years. They ditched him because they could see they needed to move on. What player, may I ask, who still thinks they can play would foresee their own downfall? Sometimes in life you have to look to others because you are in too deep personnaly to understand that you have given it everything you had and it is time to hang up the shoes.
True, and every team needs to understand that they are better at evaluating some positions over others. We seem to have a knack at Offensive linemen, linebackers and tight ends. We have struggled with D-line, receivers. We have significantly improved with DB's since we pulled in Champ.
RB's are arguable, we have had some superstars and some servicable backs that could not thrive in any other system. So I would say that even though we have had great success there, we also have had some decent players in our system, that would have been failures in other systems (droughns and tatum bell come to mind).
Tampa can find defense, but struggles on the offensive side of the ball. So we should trust that they are dumping him for a reason, and have the sense to stay away.
Some very good points here.
Still, when it involves the best DE since Reggie White, it is not a bad gamble,
even if it didn't turn out well. Because, as I mentioned, had it indeed worked
out, Denver would have had a formidable pass rush.
Gambles such as that are not bad. Jerry Rice and Tony Dorsett are other
cases in point. They didn't work out as hoped, but when you consider that
they were among the greatest ever at their respective positions, you take
the gamble. I don't regret any of them.
-----
Skinny
11-13-2007, 12:06 PM
lol, now he's a swing and miss for Dungy ... Cory Simon anyone?? :D
This one comes from Don Banks of si.com:
Hard to argue with that one.
:defense::rofl:
No, its easy to argue with that one. Rice is getting older AND coming off of an injury. Denver signed him because he was the best thing available at the time. Its not like they signed him between signing Graham and Stokley. They signed him to a one year contract so it didnt handcuff us in any way. It was worth a shot. Don Banks is a moron.
No, its easy to argue with that one. Rice is getting older AND coming off of an injury. Denver signed him because he was the best thing available at the time. Its not like they signed him between signing Graham and Stokley. They signed him to a one year contract so it didnt handcuff us in any way. It was worth a shot. Don Banks is a moron.
Maybe you didn't understand the article? The point of the red highlighted part was that it was a swing and a miss on Shanahan's part because he took a gamble with Rice (as he did with the rest of the Cleveland Browncos) and it didn't pan out.
Maybe you didn't understand the article? The point of the red highlighted part was that it was a swing and a miss on Shanahan's part because he took a gamble with Rice (as he did with the rest of the Cleveland Browncos) and it didn't pan out.
But his point is that this wasn't a swing and miss. This was a desperation signing and Rice was the only FA available with experience and that was at least good at some point. We just brought in Rice because we have so many young players. That and the fact that our starter had gone down....
This wasn't a bad signing. We lost almost no money on it because they didn't give him much of a contract. He was just here to make sure the young guys where not horrible before we turned the reigns over to them.
You guys want to talk about it but as I see it, we are doing great on the d-line now. We need another DT and some better depth, but we have a lot of young guys that are already showing they can be good. There isn't much excuse for the Brownco's other than the fact that we had many other needs that year and got them for nothing. I am pretty sure we where also a top team in the league with them here....
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 02:02 PM
But his point is that this wasn't a swing and miss. This was a desperation signing and Rice was the only FA available with experience and that was at least good at some point. We just brought in Rice because we have so many young players. That and the fact that our starter had gone down....
This wasn't a bad signing. We lost almost no money on it because they didn't give him much of a contract. He was just here to make sure the young guys where not horrible before we turned the reigns over to them.
You guys want to talk about it but as I see it, we are doing great on the d-line now. We need another DT and some better depth, but we have a lot of young guys that are already showing they can be good. There isn't much excuse for the Brownco's other than the fact that we had many other needs that year and got them for nothing. I am pretty sure we where also a top team in the league with them here....
Actually now that he was claimed off waivers by INDY all we are out is/was his actual weekly checks..
Watch, he'll start playing with Indy and actually do something.
Maybe you didn't understand the article? The point of the red highlighted part was that it was a swing and a miss on Shanahan's part because he took a gamble with Rice (as he did with the rest of the Cleveland Browncos) and it didn't pan out.
But his point is that this wasn't a swing and miss. This was a desperation signing and Rice was the only FA available with experience and that was at least good at some point. We just brought in Rice because we have so many young players. That and the fact that our starter had gone down....
This wasn't a bad signing. We lost almost no money on it because they didn't give him much of a contract. He was just here to make sure the young guys where not horrible before we turned the reigns over to them.
You guys want to talk about it but as I see it, we are doing great on the d-line now. We need another DT and some better depth, but we have a lot of young guys that are already showing they can be good. There isn't much excuse for the Brownco's other than the fact that we had many other needs that year and got them for nothing. I am pretty sure we where also a top team in the league with them here....
Exactly. Oh, the irony. LOL
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 02:52 PM
Watch, he'll start playing with Indy and actually do something.
Almost all of them do once they leave DEN, excepting of course nash, ashley, middlebroken, pierce, watts, clarlette, tater, lesuer, foster, dorset davis, toviessi, cole, friedman waston, mcgriff, brown greasy, and the list goes on.. and on and on....
Who were up for the most part up front losers on day one all wasted draft choices...
The Hamburgler
11-13-2007, 04:34 PM
Almost all of them do once they leave DEN, excepting of course nash, ashley, middlebroken, pierce, watts, clarlette, tater, lesuer, foster, dorset davis, toviessi, cole, friedman waston, mcgriff, brown greasy, and the list goes on.. and on and on....
Who were up for the most part up front losers on day one all wasted draft choices...
Bertrand Berry???
Reggie Hayward???
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 04:36 PM
Bertrand Berry???
Reggie Hayward???
one was a draft choice the other a FA we made into a decent sacker
one year wonders that the moron let get away case in point..
one was a draft choice the other a FA we made into a decent sacker
one year wonders that the moron let get away case in point..
Or he realized there was such a thing as a salary cap and decided not to cheat like in the SB years.
I think everyone already knows that this team has sacrificed the d-line for years in order to spend money elsewhere. The only d-lineman I have been sad to see go was Pryce. I still understand why he did go though. Injury, payed alot, and didn't produce anything in his last season.
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 05:26 PM
Or he realized there was such a thing as a salary cap and decided not to cheat like in the SB years.
I think everyone already knows that this team has sacrificed the d-line for years in order to spend money elsewhere. The only d-lineman I have been sad to see go was Pryce. I still understand why he did go though. Injury, payed alot, and didn't produce anything in his last season.
I'm not all sure he really cheated..
There seemed to be a loop hole in the cap that allowed deferred compensation , they wrote the contracts that way and submitted them to the league for approval and they did.
Now that they got caught a few years later after cry baby al davis squealed on them. Did they really cheat or did someone in NFL contracts screw the pooch?
But he has been almost criminal in his lack of concern on the DL IMO.
speardog
11-13-2007, 05:59 PM
This one comes from Don Banks of si.com:
Hard to argue with that one.
:defense::rofl:
This is stupid. Why does anyone say Shanny has not done good in signing FA DL?
If you look at what he gave up for the DL He GOT STEALS!!!
HE signed Ecuban, Myers and Warren All of whom started and played many minutes for the 2005 13-3 team. These players weren't busts? They were bargins.
So What did Shanny accomplish by signing these DL? He was able to the go out and draft other need areas, Such as Secondary, Will, Foxy and Paymah. He was also able to go out and get OL with Meyers, Pears, Kuper and Eslinger.
With these areas taken care of Shanny last year went out and drafted DL.
The Browncos were in NO way busts. The Browncos held down the DL quite capable while Shanny drafted other needs of the team. They were what they were, a stop gap solution so Denver could take care of other ares of the team, but in no way werer they as a whole busts.
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 06:15 PM
This is stupid. Why does anyone say Shanny has not done good in signing FA DL?
If you look at what he gave up for the DL He GOT STEALS!!!
HE signed Ecuban, Myers and Warren All of whom started and played many minutes for the 2005 13-3 team. These players weren't busts? They were bargins.
So What did Shanny accomplish by signing these DL? He was able to the go out and draft other need areas, Such as Secondary, Will, Foxy and Paymah. He was also able to go out and get OL with Meyers, Pears, Kuper and Eslinger.
With these areas taken care of Shanny last year went out and drafted DL.
The Browncos were in NO way busts. The Browncos held down the DL quite capable while Shanny drafted other needs of the team. They were what they were, a stop gap solution so Denver could take care of other ares of the team, but in no way werer they as a whole busts.
your wrong in your thinking here FA cost big buck for the most part
looky here
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Birdine, Larry DE DB 285000.00
Carrington, Paul DE DB 360000.00
Crowder, Tim DE DB 285,000.00
Dumervil, Elvis DE DB 360,000.00
Ekuban, Ebenezer DE DB 2,210,000.00 almost 7 Times Elvis
Engelberger, John DE DB 1,365,000.00 almost 5 time Elvis
Hall, Carlos DE DB 595000.00
Mallard, Josh DE DB 435000.00
McKinley, Alvin DE DB 720,000.00
Moss, Jarvis DE DB 285,000.00
Rice, Simeon DE DB 820,000.00
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Adams, Sam DT DB 1,000,000.00 almost 4 time Thomas
Burton, Antwon DT DB 360,000.00
Harris, Steven DT DB 79900.00
Thomas, Marcus DT DB 285,000.00
Washburn, Cliff DT DB 79900.00
rookies in green
FA's in RED major difference n the actual cost to the club each year
Yea, those Cleveland Browncos sure didn't play like the Pro Bowlers everyone thought they were....oh wait.
TXBRONC
11-13-2007, 07:57 PM
Yea, those Cleveland Browncos sure didn't play like the Pro Bowlers everyone thought they were....oh wait.
It was that group of castoffs that helped Jake Plummer win a division title in Denver.
gobroncsnv
11-13-2007, 09:37 PM
You guys want to talk about it but as I see it, we are doing great on the d-line now. We need another DT and some better depth, but we have a lot of young guys that are already showing they can be good.
I wouldn't say they are doing great... 4 sacks against the Chiefs is one thing... Let me know when we get that many against the Colts or the Pats.
But we do agree, some of the guys we've picked up are either making good showings, or flashes of potential. Elvis, no question. Needs the other bookend (maybe Moss can come back strong next year.) Wouldn't mind seeing Thomas start, give the kid more playing time. Will we see Eb next year? But we DO need to get the other DT to compliment Thomas, and shore that middle up. After DT, I would love to see us go with LB, and Shanny has done pretty well getting them. Mobley, Wilson, Gold (yeah, that's me giving Ian good marks against KC, maybe he's coming back), DJ...
But I still say the Dline needs work. Too important to stop the improvements now.
your wrong in your thinking here FA cost big buck for the most part
looky here
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Birdine, Larry DE DB 285000.00
Carrington, Paul DE DB 360000.00
Crowder, Tim DE DB 285,000.00
Dumervil, Elvis DE DB 360,000.00
Ekuban, Ebenezer DE DB 2,210,000.00 almost 7 Times Elvis
Engelberger, John DE DB 1,365,000.00 almost 5 time Elvis
Hall, Carlos DE DB 595000.00
Mallard, Josh DE DB 435000.00
McKinley, Alvin DE DB 720,000.00
Moss, Jarvis DE DB 285,000.00
Rice, Simeon DE DB 820,000.00
Player Name Position Team Compensation
Adams, Sam DT DB 1,000,000.00 almost 4 time Thomas
Burton, Antwon DT DB 360,000.00
Harris, Steven DT DB 79900.00
Thomas, Marcus DT DB 285,000.00
Washburn, Cliff DT DB 79900.00
rookies in green
FA's in RED major difference n the actual cost to the club each year
Those salaries are peanuts. If anything it says we aren't spending enough on the DL.
Lonestar
11-13-2007, 10:32 PM
Those salaries are peanuts. If anything it says we aren't spending enough on the DL.
What I was showing was that going after FA's is not eh way to go UNLESS there is no other choice..
It is always better to build your base team via the draft PROVIDING The guy making the final choice can find his ass with both hands.. Something that has not happened much in DEN.
Why pay someone 3-7 times to do what a rookie or second year player can do..
Also if you are getting prodcution from these peanut guy you have more to spend on other glaring needs we seem to have each year..
BANJOPICKER1
11-13-2007, 10:56 PM
A quote from Topscribe:
Regarding Rice, I thought that was a good gamble because he was the best
DE the league had seen since Reggie White hung 'em up. If he would not
have been over the hill . . . which no one could foresee, even him . . . he
would have teamed with Dumervil in making the D-line a fearsome pass-
rushing force.
One can look at any team in the league and see that personnel acquisitions
come and go. It's hit and miss. That's the nature of the beast, as they say.
The Banjopicker thinks:
I think with Indy, he will have a bunch of great games,this is always how it happens when we drop a player like him,so get ready fans...He will go off!!
topscribe
11-13-2007, 11:14 PM
The Banjopicker thinks:
I think with Indy, he will have a bunch of great games,this is always how it happens when we drop a player like him,so get ready fans...He will go off!!
I wouldn't doubt it. :tsk:
-----
Medford Bronco
11-13-2007, 11:30 PM
A quote from Topscribe:
Regarding Rice, I thought that was a good gamble because he was the best
DE the league had seen since Reggie White hung 'em up. If he would not
have been over the hill . . . which no one could foresee, even him . . . he
would have teamed with Dumervil in making the D-line a fearsome pass-
rushing force.
One can look at any team in the league and see that personnel acquisitions
come and go. It's hit and miss. That's the nature of the beast, as they say.
The Banjopicker thinks:
I think with Indy, he will have a bunch of great games,this is always how it happens when we drop a player like him,so get ready fans...He will go off!!
Also him being away from Bates system will benefit him greatly :mad:
Also him being away from Bates system will benefit him greatly :mad:
He should've flourished here...all DE's do in Bates' defense is rush the passer.
If he does well in Indy it'll be because he took horse roids or something. He looks phsyically done.
Medford Bronco
11-13-2007, 11:39 PM
He should've flourished here...all DE's do in Bates' defense is rush the passer.
If he does well in Indy it'll be because he took horse roids or something. He looks phsyically done.
:laugh: horse roids. I would pay to see that :laugh:
I know what you are saying, sometimes a change is good
Personally I think he is a crybaby whiner and needs
to actualy make a play, something he did little of here
I hope he sucks there as well as I dont want Indy
to benefit from a malcontent here.
Requiem / The Dagda
11-14-2007, 12:11 AM
If Moss can come back and be healthy, all Denver really needs is to re-sign a guy like Ekuban to a one-year deal, or find another situational guy who can work in a rotation at DE. I always thought Moss would do well here, but him getting injured is really discouraging, and his past injury history makes it hurt even more.
If Denver was able to get Haynesworth in FA, and perhaps draft a tackle somewhere (in rounds two through four) I think we'd finally have a solution to the problem.
Everyone seems to have the understanding that we need 325 pound guys in the middle. That's not necessarily true. Coach Dean brought up the fact (which was later reiterated by Bates) that we need attacking DT's who can get into their gaps and disrupt. That's what Thomas is starting to do, and he's improving every game. I used to think 3-technique's like him would be wasted here, but he's pretty effective.
Pair him next to a Marcus Harrison (who has some off the field problems) and things could be special.
The more I watch DeMario Pressley, the more I'm impressed. He's a nice 3-technique, but he's really strong at the POA, and does better in run support than rushing the passer, which is sort of odd for a 3-technique - since it's the other way around. I'd love to get him in the second-round. :)
Medford Bronco
11-14-2007, 12:13 AM
If Moss can come back and be healthy, all Denver really needs is to re-sign a guy like Ekuban to a one-year deal, or find another situational guy who can work in a rotation at DE. I always thought Moss would do well here, but him getting injured is really discouraging, and his past injury history makes it hurt even more.
If Denver was able to get Haynesworth in FA, and perhaps draft a tackle somewhere (in rounds two through four) I think we'd finally have a solution to the problem.
Everyone seems to have the understanding that we need 325 pound guys in the middle. That's not necessarily true. Coach Dean brought up the fact (which was later reiterated by Bates) that we need attacking DT's who can get into their gaps and disrupt. That's what Thomas is starting to do, and he's improving every game. I used to think 3-technique's like him would be wasted here, but he's pretty effective.
Pair him next to a Marcus Harrison (who has some off the field problems) and things could be special.
The more I watch DeMario Pressley, the more I'm impressed. He's a nice 3-technique, but he's really strong at the POA, and does better in run support than rushing the passer, which is sort of odd for a 3-technique - since it's the other way around. I'd love to get him in the second-round. :)
Dream great info :beer:
Med is too busy to follow college closely.
where to these guys Harrison and Pressley play in college so
I can try to take a look.
thanks I appreciate your insight very much so :salute:
gobroncsnv
11-14-2007, 12:31 AM
You're right, Dream does a great job at this stuff...
Dream great info :beer:
Med is too busy to follow college closely.
where to these guys Harrison and Pressley play in college so
I can try to take a look.
thanks I appreciate your insight very much so :salute:
Harrison plays for Arkansas and Pressley plays for NC State.
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