Possible Cap Cuts

[WARHORSE]

Players currently under contract including some futures deals announced in the last 1-2 weeks


Here's the full cap count roster for 2013 as it stands right now


QB
Peyton Manning $20,000,000
Brock Osweiler $729,396
Caleb Hanie $1,250,000
I dont see Hanie back with us- Cut saves $1.25 m


RB
Willis McGahee $3,000,000* - SB proration remaining $1m, cut saves $2m
Im not exactly sure we keep McGahee. I would rather put this money towards a Steven Jackson, R. Bush or the like. Coming off the injury, then the fumblitis he has, I dont see it.
Knowshon Moreno $3,475,750 - SB proration $832k, cut saves $2.6m
He saved himself with his performance, but injuries are a part of this guys life.
Ronnie Hillman $652,708
Jacob Hester $715,000
Mario Fannan $483,333


FB


WR
Demaryius Thomas $2,430,250*
Eric Decker $758,037*
Andre Caldwell $1,000,000
Trindon Holiday KR $480,000
Eric Page $480,361
Gerell Robinson $405,000


TE
Joel Dreessen $3,333,333 - $1.667m left in SB proration
Jacob Tamme $3,333,333 - $1.667m left in SB proration
Julius Thomas $651,000
Virgil Green $559,320


OL
Chris Kuper OG $5,915,166 - $950k left in SB proration, cut/trade saves $5m
I dont think Kuper is safe at this number. He may get asked to renegotiate his contract. We cant pay a guy this amount to be injured.
Orlando Franklin OT $1,191,000
Zane Beadles OG $1,005,000
Manuel Ramirez OG $715,000
JD Walton OC $774,375
Philip Blake OC $593,400
CJ Davis OG $555,000
Justin Boren OG $405,000




DE
Elvis Dumervil DE $16,948,000 - $1.27m left in SB proration - cut/trade saves $15.7m
Cant see them affording to cut Elvis after 11 sacks. And he wont redo his numbers. But is he worth 15 million?
Im not saying they would, but is it beyond possibility that they would sign a Michael Bennett from Tampa or
Michael Johnson from Cincy? Arent these guys more worth the money than Doom? Mjohnson is up and coming.
Derek Wolfe DE/DT $1,193,582
Robert Ayers DE $2,241,250 - All guarantees gone, no SB proration left
Malik Jackson DE $533,400
Jeremy Beal DE $405,000


DT
Sealver Siliga DT $480,000


OLB
Von Miller SLB $5,727,376
DJ Williams WLB $7,732,500 - $900k SB proration remains, cut saves $6.8m
He will be gone before the wind blows in Denver. Goodbye DJ.
Wesley Woodyard WLB $2,000,000
Nate Irving SLB $728,750
Danny Trevathon WLB $506,018


ILB
Joe Mays MLB $4,166,667 - $670k still guaranteed, cut saves $3.5m
We cant justify keeping Mays at this price.
Steven Johnson MLB $484,000


CB
Champ Bailey $10,500,000 - nothing guaranteed, cut/trade saves $10.5m
Forget about it. Hes worth the money still.
Chris Harris $556,000
Omar Bolden $598,607
Coryell Judie $483,333


S
Mike Adams SS $2,000,000 - Nothing guaranteed, cut saves $2m
Rahim Moore FS $987,500
Quinton Carter SS $668,750




SPECIAL TEAMS


K
Matt Prater $3,312,500


P




KR/PR
Trindon Holiday


LS
Aaron Brewer $481,333




My thoughts on the free agents we have.


Clady - Definitely
Stokely- Most likely
Colquitt RFA -Definitely
Vickerson - Yes
Bannan -Dont think so
Unrein RFA -Yes
Tony Carter RFA-Yes
Jason Hunter -Depends on medical evaluation
Koppen-Yes
Bruton -Very possible
Leonhard -Please......NO
Brooking -Dont think so, but depends on whats out there. He was good in the role he played and provided veteran leadership to the lockeroom.


So, if we cut Hanie, Willis, Kuper, DJ and Mays, this brings up another 18.6 million in cap room. That would bring the total to about $30 million to sign others.


If we cut Doom.......relax, just saying......then it jumps to $45.7 million.


There are a number of FAgents we could target.
We cant sign all of these but we could bring in some impact makers.
I would want to focus on the Oline and Safety positions, Dline as well.

DT Starks. Perfect for us, a stud in the 4-3.
Safety...Both Jarius Byrd and William Moore are studs.
Cutting Kuper, we can sign one of the better OTs to man the right side and move Franklin inside. Or we can go after someone like Levitre of Buff or Moore of Jets
Steven Jackson is better than Willis imo. Hard runner who didnt have anyone taking pressure off him in the passing game. In Denver, he does way better than
McGahee did coming from Baltimore. Reggie Bush, Chris Ivory are some thoughts as well.
We wont target a bigtime WR, but there are a bunch of them out there and one may find his way to us that can make an upgrade over what we had last year.
How about Brad Jones of GB to play the middle? He did well for them this year.
If doom goes.......Bennett or Johnson would be good signs.

Lots of thoughts....

[SR]

When you say "nothing guaranteed" what do you mean exactly?

And in the NFL isn't there a stipulation somewhere where cutting a player under contract still counts a portion of their would be salary against the cap the following season?

[Buff]

I think Kuper's days are numbered. His ankle injury two seasons ago was the beginning of the end. It didn't heal properly. He's making way too much money for the uncertainty. He will either take less money or be cut I'd assume.

I think McGahee stays, assuming he recovers from his injury without any complications. He's been reliable and productive and his $3 million number is reasonable.

DJ is gone.

[Simple Jaded]

Warhorse could you direct us to where you got those numbers? I get mine from Rotoworld, they're not exactly reliable.......

[BroncoWave]

I think Kuper's days are numbered. His ankle injury two seasons ago was the beginning of the end. It didn't heal properly. He's making way too much money for the uncertainty. He will either take less money or be cut I'd assume.

I think McGahee stays, assuming he recovers from his injury without any complications. He's been reliable and productive and his $3 million number is reasonable.

DJ is gone.

If Kuper is gone guard becomes a pretty big priority for us this offseason. I fear for Manning's health if Ramirez is starting next year.

[dogfish]

kuper will renegotiate if need be-- he's an organizational favorite for good reasons, they won't cut him. . .

we'll see if DJ gets the same chance, but he'll need to reduce that number pretty drastically to be here next year. . . i wouldn't be shocked if they asked doom to restructure, but i can't see moving him, and breaking up our dynamic duo. . .

[WARHORSE]

Warhorse could you direct us to where you got those numbers? I get mine from Rotoworld, they're not exactly reliable.......

Sportrac and a couple others.

I think its pretty accurate.

[WARHORSE]

kuper will renegotiate if need be-- he's an organizational favorite for good reasons, they won't cut him. . .

we'll see if DJ gets the same chance, but he'll need to reduce that number pretty drastically to be here next year. . . i wouldn't be shocked if they asked doom to restructure, but i can't see moving him, and breaking up our dynamic duo. . .



Id actually like to see Franklin move inside. If we sign a right tackle who is a little better against the pass, but can dominate in the run game, Franklin moves inside, Kuper takes a paycut, suddenly our line looks pretty solid.

Koppen stays hopefully. Mannings quick release makes offensive tackles look a whole lot better due to his quick release.

I want to have an oline that can pick up 2 yards on any given play. I want to be able to kick some teeth in when we need to.

Watching superbowl 32 again this morning made me remember what a dominant oline could do.

I was drooling, and also remembering how sad it is that TDs career was cut short. Man that dude was good.

[UnderArmour]

I would like to see us trade Kuper but I do not see him being cut. He will be on the roster next year because $5 million for a contributor is reasonable.
Mays is gone.
DJ is gone.
Clady will be back at the $10 million+ tag number for tackles.
McGahee will at least go through camp before the team decides whether or not to part with him, maybe a candidate for trade. $3 million is a reasonable rate.
Mike Adams will be back as he performed at an above average level for us last year. Even if it is as a backup, $2 million isn't breaking the bank.
Hanie is gone but we knew that.
Doom's contract will not be touched. Believe it or not, that contract is actually not a bad deal considering what Charles Johnson, Julius Peppers, and Mario Williams got and Cliff Avril is going to get this year. Pass rushers are not cheap. Von Miller will get a $100 million contract when his is up.

[Dapper Dan]

If Kuper is gone guard becomes a pretty big priority for us this offseason. I fear for Manning's health if Ramirez is starting next year.

Didn't Ramirez start most of the season. As far as I know, Manning stayed healthy.

[Dapper Dan]

I think I still like Bannan. Maybe a one year deal each year.

It's crazy how much production we get out of guys that are listed at making around $1million or less. It's going to be pricey when these guys come off of their rookie contracts. It it pretty admirable that they aren't asking for more money.

[SR]

Id actually like to see Franklin move inside. If we sign a right tackle who is a little better against the pass, but can dominate in the run game, Franklin moves inside, Kuper takes a paycut, suddenly our line looks pretty solid.


The line is already pretty solid...

[SR]

I think I still like Bannan. Maybe a one year deal each year.

It's crazy how much production we get out of guys that are listed at making around $1million or less. It's going to be pricey when these guys come off of their rookie contracts. It it pretty admirable that they aren't asking for more money.

I also like Bannan, but if Denver has a chance to upgrade the DT position, I see them doing it.

[chazoe60]

I think $987,500 is a little much for a safety who cost us a playoff game.

[SR]

I think $987,500 is a little much for a safety who cost us a playoff game.

:mad:

[Buff]

I think $987,500 is a little much for a safety who cost us a playoff game.

Is there any way we can claw back some of his pay from last year?

[chazoe60]

:mad:

:D.

[chazoe60]

Is there any way we can claw back some of his pay from last year?

No, but we can take away his jersey and tell him he's no longer allowed to play for the Denver Broncos. I'm sure we can find another safety who is incapable of playing the deep ball.

[slim]

I think $987,500 is a little much for a safety who cost us a playoff game.

Excellent point, Chaz.

[slim]

No, but we can take away his jersey and tell him he's no longer allowed to play for the Denver Broncos. I'm sure we can find another safety who is incapable of playing the deep ball.

I am incapable of playing the deep ball. And I work cheap.

[Dapper Dan]

I also like Bannan, but if Denver has a chance to upgrade the DT position, I see them doing it.

Of course. If we can find an upgrade, sure. I just think as long as he doesn't want to much money, he could help out. We aren't looking too good at DT as it is.

[rationalfan]

I think $987,500 is a little much for a safety who cost us a playoff game.

by that logic you better demand docking manning's salary too. because his turnovers contributed to that loss as much as anything moore did.

[Dapper Dan]

by that logic you better demand docking manning's salary too. because his turnovers contributed to that loss as much as anything moore did.

It's a lost cause..:tsk:

[BroncoWave]

Didn't Ramirez start most of the season. As far as I know, Manning stayed healthy.

Almost all of Manning's sacks came when Ramirez played. He was virtually untouched in Kuper's starts. We are very lucky he didn't get hurt as bad as Manny is in pass protection.

[slim]

by that logic you better demand docking manning's salary too. because his turnovers contributed to that loss as much as anything moore did.

Total B.S.

The game was over until Moore ****** up the works.

[rationalfan]

Total B.S.

The game was over until Moore ****** up the works.

perhaps. but if there wasn't a manning pick six, or his fumble, or interception in OT, it wouldn't matter.

certainly, moore made a HUGE mistake. but the team played pretty poorly. plenty of blame to go around; unless you like playing the scapegoat game.

[Ravage!!!]

I think $987,500 is a little much for a safety who cost us a playoff game.

I don't know... I guess I could say the same thing about the 10 million going to Champ and those 2 TDs (as well as one that could have been a third had it not been slightly overthrown)...not to mentions the 20 million going to our QB who threw an absolutely TERRIBLE INT in OT,and fumbled another (not counting the 1st INT because it was a deflection).

Our safety didn't cost us that game by himself.

[slim]

but if there wasn't a manning pick six, or his fumble, it wouldn't matter.



This is where we disagree. All of those errors had already been accounted for and rendered moot. They were done and forgotten.

[Dean]

Our safety didn't cost us that game by himself.

Yeah, he did. :confused:

[wayninja]

I think 10.5 million is too much for a safety in 2013 that cost us a Playoff game.

Relax, I kid!

[wayninja]

Yeah, he did. :confused:

So... we didn't go into overtime?

[slim]

You guys are nuts.

Yeah, it wasn't Moore's fault. Ribbons and orange slices for everyone!

:fart:

[Poet]

Slim, why are you consistently the same poster as Zambini? I mean you have his grammar and typing skills beat to shit. Still, you're pretty stupid and honestly I hope you never feel joy again.

[slim]

I hope you never feel joy again.

I won't. Rahim Moore has ruined me.

Also, E.A.D.

[Poet]

I won't. Rahim Moore has ruined me.

Also, E.A.D.

I'm sad that the rest of this website suffered from that play. However, I am truly happy that you are still in pain. You are a shitty fan and a worse person.

[slim]

I'm sad that the rest of this website suffered from that play. However, I am truly happy that you are still in pain. You are a shitty fan and a worse person.

Ken Anderson is a fag and so are you.

[chazoe60]

**** you king. When you die I hope there is an untouched bacon sandwich right next to you, just out of reach.

[Poet]

Ken Anderson is a fag and so are you.

Your wife bangs black guys on the side.

Chaz, I'd give up meat for the rest of my life as a trade for you to kill yourself.

[slim]

Your wife bangs black guys on the side.



So does your dad....and Ken Anderson.

[Buff]

So does your dad....and Ken Anderson.

Wait, Ken Anderson bangs black guys? Or King's mom bangs Ken Anderson?

Because it wasn't immediately clear to me.

[slim]

Wait, Ken Anderson bangs black guys? Or King's mom bangs Ken Anderson?

Because it wasn't immediately clear to me.

Ken Anderson bangs black guys.

King's mom bangs everyone.

[Buff]

Ken Anderson bangs black guys.

King's mom bangs everyone.

I'm glad we clarified that point...

Do you think if I started a thread dumping on Nate Webster that rational fan and like 3 other dudes would show up and defend him?

[Poet]

Ken Anderson bangs black guys.

King's mom bangs everyone.

My mother is a virtuous woman, unlike the whore that you wifed. Hey Slim, I beat your wife flicks the bean to the thought of Rahim Moore plowing her *******.

[slim]

I'm glad we clarified that point...

Do you think if I started a thread dumping on Nate Webster that rational fan and like 3 other dudes would show up and defend him?

If Hilter were a Bronco, RF would defend him too.

[slim]

My mother is a virtuous woman, unlike the whore that you wifed. Hey Slim, I beat your wife flicks the bean to the thought of Rahim Moore plowing her *******.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word virtuous.

I bet you flick your bean to the thought of Icky Woods with a ball gag in his mouth.

[Poet]

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word virtuous.

I bet you flick your bean to the thought of Icky Woods with a ball gag in his mouth.

You worrying about my vocabulary would be like me worrying about your health.

Icky Woods was a good player, but he didn't last long. He probably could have gotten 2k yards on the Broncos though. Even a scrub like Davis could do that. Speaking of fags, he sure cries a lot.

[chazoe60]

If Hilter were a Bronco, RF would defend him too.

But he's so rational.

[Dapper Dan]

Almost all of Manning's sacks came when Ramirez played. He was virtually untouched in Kuper's starts. We are very lucky he didn't get hurt as bad as Manny is in pass protection.

That's because Manny started almost every game.

So if Kuper stays healthy for the entire season Manning will not get sacked? Too bad he's made of glass. We could set a record.

[slim]

You worrying about my vocabulary would be like me worrying about your health.

Icky Woods was a good player, but he didn't last long. He probably could have gotten 2k yards on the Broncos though. Even a scrub like Davis could do that. Speaking of fags, he sure cries a lot.

Yeah, he was a good player in the way that you are a good poster and a good person. Which is to say he wasn't.

Also, eat a bowl of dicks, you worthless, inbred P.O.S.

[Poet]

Yeah, he was a good player in the way that you are a good poster and a good person. Which is to say he wasn't.

Also, eat a bowl of dicks, you worthless, inbred P.O.S.

Sure he was, he produced and was a big part of playoff runs.

This is a summary of you - Stupid homer opinions, unintelligent ramblings, awful arguments and emotional breakdowns.

I bet you go to bed every night and dream of Kenny Stabler.

[slim]

Playoff runs? Ah, the loser's lament.

I bet you go to bed and dream about back-to-back Lombardis.

[BroncoWave]

That's because Manny started almost every game.

So if Kuper stays healthy for the entire season Manning will not get sacked? Too bad he's made of glass. We could set a record.

Kuper started 5 games this season. Manning was sacked either once or twice in those 5 games combined.

[Timmy!]

Are slim and king fighting over a sandwich?

[Poet]

Playoff runs? Ah, the loser's lament.

I bet you go to bed and dream about back-to-back Lombardis.

So was Elway a loser for a long time, you twit? Woods was a good player, not a great one. I don't dream of football. I also don't get so crushed over a loss that I turn into a ***** like you and Chaz. I would slap the shit out of you if you were in my presence you quivering vagina.

[SR]

That's because Manny started almost every game.

So if Kuper stays healthy for the entire season Manning will not get sacked? Too bad he's made of glass. We could set a record.

Kuper is not made of glass. How many games did he miss due to injury before his ankle was turned around on his leg? Or before he broke his wrist? Dude is in a bit of a slump but he'll rebound. Hes the second best offensive lineman on our team and to sit and watch a lot of the people on this board throw him under the bus continually is a bit ridiculous.

[slim]

So was Elway a loser for a long time, you twit? Woods was a good player, not a great one. I don't dream of football. I also don't get so crushed over a loss that I turn into a ***** like you and Chaz. I would slap the shit out of you if you were in my presence you quivering vagina.

No Elway has two rings.

I am not crushed, I just hate Rahim Moore. I am sorry if your pea-brain is incapable of understanding that.

[Poet]

No Elway has two rings.

I am not crushed, I just hate Rahim Moore. I am sorry if your pea-brain is incapable of understanding that.

You are an idiot. By your logic, Elway was a loser for the vast majority of his career.

While I am of average intelligence, I look like Einstein compared to you. I wish cancer upon you.

[slim]

You are an idiot. By your logic, Elway was a loser for the vast majority of his career.

While I am of average intelligence, I look like Einstein compared to you. I wish cancer upon you.

WTF are you talking about? Are you really comparing the careers of Ickey Woods and John Elway to reach some inane conclusion?

Elway is the G.O.A.T. Ickey is a never was.

Look, your team sucks. It's not my fault, OK?

[rationalfan]

I'm glad we clarified that point...

Do you think if I started a thread dumping on Nate Webster that rational fan and like 3 other dudes would show up and defend him?

i think if you started a thread dumping on nate webster you'd be recycling the same kneejerked opinions people have posted about him for years.

[chazoe60]

It's getting too rational in here.

[wayninja]

This thread took a turn!

[wayninja]

This is where we disagree. All of those errors had already been accounted for and rendered moot. They were done and forgotten.

This makes no sense. Just because it was the last in the series of mistakes, it made the mistakes that came before it irrelevant?

Moore's choke wouldn't have mattered if we were up by 10.

[BroncoWave]

This makes no sense. Just because it was the last in the series of mistakes, it made the mistakes that came before it irrelevant?

Moore's choke wouldn't have mattered if we were up by 10.

Yeah that was a pretty idiotic post by Slim. If other players don't F up earlier in the game then we would not have even been in a position where a hail mary would beat us.

[Buff]

This makes no sense. Just because it was the last in the series of mistakes, it made the mistakes that came before it irrelevant?

Moore's choke wouldn't have mattered if we were up by 10.

And your aunt would be your uncle if she had a penis.

Rahim Moore lost us the game.

[BroncoWave]

And your aunt would be your uncle if she had a penis.

Rahim Moore lost us the game.

So after that Moore play we still had no chance to drive for a late FG or to win it in OT? Cool story bro.

[slim]

This makes no sense. Just because it was the last in the series of mistakes, it made the mistakes that came before it irrelevant?

Moore's choke wouldn't have mattered if we were up by 10.

We weren't up by 10. We were up by 7, so Moore's choke did matter.

[slim]

Yeah that was a pretty idiotic post by Slim. If other players don't F up earlier in the game then we would not have even been in a position where a hail mary would beat us.

Yeah, but we were in that position.

Why are you living in fantasy land?

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, but we were in that position.

Why are you living in fantasy land?

Only looking at one play in a game that had over 75 minutes of football is the definition of living in fantasy land. ESPECIALLY since over 15 minutes of football were played after the play in question. I realize you want to make someone a scapegoat to rationalize the loss, but to say one single play by one single player is 100% of the reason we lost the game is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard anyone say. Especially since the CB misplayed that play as well.

[slim]

Rahim Moore is the only reason we lost that game.

[BroncoWave]

I hope Rahim Moore rapes your entire family and makes you watch.

[slim]

The only reason.

[chazoe60]

I hope Rahim Moore rapes your entire family and makes you watch.

I feel like he already did.

[slim]

I feel like he already did.

Yeah, I mean he already ****** all of his teammates and coaches. I doubt he has much left in the tank.

[Buff]

Only looking at one play in a game that had over 75 minutes of football is the definition of living in fantasy land. ESPECIALLY since over 15 minutes of football were played after the play in question. I realize you want to make someone a scapegoat to rationalize the loss, but to say one single play by one single player is 100% of the reason we lost the game is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard anyone say. Especially since the CB misplayed that play as well.

But it was the mother of all errors. That's my contention. It wasn't a run-of-the mill interception. Or an unfortunate fumble. It was an inexcusable, career-defining mental lapse that can never happen under any circumstances. That's it. You'll never convince me otherwise.

[BroncoWave]

:lol: I hope you never end this crusade Slim. It's keeping me very entertained at work!

[Timmy!]

If the proposed punishment law in montana passes, we need to bring Moore up here, charge him crimes against all bronco fans in fhe rocky mountain region, then make him cut off his own foot with a rusty spoon and eat it raw.

[BroncoWave]

But it was the mother of all errors. That's my contention. It wasn't a run-of-the mill interception. Or an unfortunate fumble. It was an inexcusable, career-defining mental lapse that can never happen under any circumstances. That's it. You'll never convince me otherwise.

All of that may be true, but it's not even close to the only reason we lost. We still had an entire overtime period to make things right with a score. If our offense doesn't play like a bunch of assclowns in OT we would have long forgotten about the Moore play by now.

[slim]

All of that may be true, but it's not even close to the only reason we lost. We still had an entire overtime period to make things right with a score. If our offense doesn't play like a bunch of assclowns in OT we would have long forgotten about the Moore play by now.

If Moore doesn't play like an assclown, we aren't even discussing this.

[BroncoWave]

If Moore doesn't play like an assclown, we aren't even discussing this.

Weird, I said the exact same thing about all the mistakes that led up to the Moore play and you called me out for living in fantasy land.

[slim]

Weird, I said the exact same thing about all the mistakes that led up to the Moore play and you called me out for living in fantasy land.

Yeah, because Moore's non-play was the defining moment. Nothing else matters.

[Poet]

WTF are you talking about? Are you really comparing the careers of Ickey Woods and John Elway to reach some inane conclusion?

Elway is the G.O.A.T. Ickey is a never was.

Look, your team sucks. It's not my fault, OK?

You are stupid. My point is that with your logic one time your god was a bad player. BTW Elway isn't the GOAT. You run your mouth and you're ******* stupid. The Bengals are a good team right now. Stop acting like a bitch.

[chazoe60]

King is a twought.

[slim]

You are stupid. My point is that with your logic one time your god was a bad player. BTW Elway isn't the GOAT. You run your mouth and you're ******* stupid. The Bengals are a good team right now. Stop acting like a bitch.

My logic? You are the one that said that making a "playoff run" is something to be proud of. Elway did a hell of lot more than "make playoff runs" his entire career. He drug teams to the super bowl, dipshit. Yeah, they were super bowl runs.

If you want to be satisified with making the playoffs, then good for you. I guess that is really all you can expect as a Bengal fan. So maybe it's not your fault.

[Poet]

Slim, you're an idiot. I literally think you're moronic and I pray that your children are taken from you. It's not fair that you will taint them and make them criminals.

[dogfish]

lol. . . internet fiiiight!

[Timmy!]

The fatty on fatty flame war is making me sad. We should be united.

[Poet]

lol. . . internet fiiiight!

You shut the fukk you little assboy.

[slim]

King, let's put this ugliness behind us.

[Poet]

Quasi message board friendship terminated. It was a good ride.

[slim]

You don't mean that.

[Poet]

I really don't care for you.

[slim]

Fine, be that way.

[MOtorboat]

Wth?

[Poet]

Wth?

You want to push me, too?

[SR]

And people call ME angry.

[Poet]

and people call me angry.

you ******* too!??!?!

[SR]

you ******* too!??!?!

No. I'm just saying.

[WARHORSE]

Im eager to see what direction Elway takes the team this offseason. I have no complaints so far in anything hes done.

Id love to be a fly on the wall in some of the personel meetings theyre having right now. Evaluating each position, going over the possibilities, etc.

I think it would be awesome just to kick it in one of those meetings and give some well needed fan input. heh heh

[Nomad]

I guess the way slim dislikes Moore is the same way I felt about Darrent Williams. Both got burnt at their positions but weren't the sole reason for the loses. It just makes one feel better to find a scapegoat:lol:

[slim]

I guess the way slim dislikes Moore is the same way I felt about Darrent Williams. Both got burnt at their positions but weren't the sole reason for the lose. It just makes one feel better to find a scapegoat:lol:

My hate for Moore is rivaled only by Clay's hate for McDaniels.

[Dapper Dan]

Kuper started 5 games this season. Manning was sacked either once or twice in those 5 games combined.

So, in the other 11 games of the season, he was sacked less than 20 times. Is that near the bottom of the league or something?


Kuper is not made of glass. How many games did he miss due to injury before his ankle was turned around on his leg? Or before he broke his wrist? Dude is in a bit of a slump but he'll rebound. Hes the second best offensive lineman on our team and to sit and watch a lot of the people on this board throw him under the bus continually is a bit ridiculous.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one continually throwing Kuper under the bus. I'm just sick of hearing about how horrible Manny is, when Kuper is the one who isn't playing. Manny shouldn't be on the field. He shouldn't have to be. Your starting Guard shouldn't have to be a $700,000 player. Manny has done fine in Kuper's absence. If you have a problem with the play of Manny, then you have a problem with Kuper. I'm not saying Kuper is a bad player. I'm just sick of all the people trashing Beadles and Manny, like Kuper has brought so much to the table this year. Hopefully he never misses more than 2-3 games in a season from now on. I doubt it. I has a lot of weight on those legs. He's over thirty. But for the sake of the team, I hope he doesn't have anymore issues. He's started all 16 games only twice. Hopefully 2013 is the third time.

[Nomad]

My hate for Moore is rivaled only by Clay's hate for McDaniels.

That's deep

[slim]

That's deep

I am afraid it will kill me.

[Nomad]

I am afraid it will kill me.

It's not healthy. What did clay do to get over McD

[slim]

It's not healthy. What did clay do to get over McD

I think that the hiring of Elway took most of the sting out of it.

I will be OK once they release Moore later this summer.

[BroncoWave]

I think that the hiring of Elway took most of the sting out of it.

I will be OK once they release Moore later this summer.

Don't hold your breath. John Elway is smarter than to release a good player because of one bad play. I'm glad you don't run this team. It would make people miss the McDaniels days.

[slim]

~ I'm glad you don't run this team

That is the dumbest shit I hear here....and I hear it said a lot, by a lot of people to a lot of people.

Yeah genius, I don't run the ******* team. I am just a fan expressing an opinion. You think I give two shits if you agree with me?

[Superchop 7]

It seems to me that after the gallactically idiotic safety did a "repunzel" (see movie Airplane) instead of his job.......the coaches could not coach (see kneel down)........the fans were in shock.......the players were in shock......the game was lost at that point.

I blame Rahim Moore........or should I say Repunzel. ( Go to 1:28 of this clip)

http://youtu.be/OFHjdYoNb_Y

[Superchop 7]

What town of Denver wants to do to Rahim Moore.

http://youtu.be/i0GW0Vnr9Yc

[dogfish]

My hate for Moore is rivaled only by Clay's hate for McDaniels.

oh, please. . . your hate for rahim is a weak and puny thing compared to MO's all-consuming tebow rage. . .


:D

[MOtorboat]

oh, please. . . your hate for rahim is a weak and puny thing compared to MO's all-consuming tebow rage. . .


:D

Au contraire

I have never wished Tebow death.

[wayninja]

We weren't up by 10. We were up by 7, so Moore's choke did matter.

Right, we weren't up by 10 because we missed a fieldgoal... which I would call a mistake. There were others too, that added up to us being only up by 7 when Moore made his mistake.

I'm not saying Moore didn't royally screw the pooch, he did, it just doesn't somehow invalidate all the other mistakes. Just because it's the last one doesn't mean it's the only thing that would have mattered had it come out differently.

That seems obvious having typed it, but your statement is coming off as though that's not the case...

[wayninja]

And your aunt would be your uncle if she had a penis.

Rahim Moore lost us the game.


My Aunt does have a penis, your mom has seen it at her swingers parties.

But hey, if you want to scapegoat Moore, go right ahead. Don't let causality derail your illogic train.

[MOtorboat]

My Aunt does have a penis, your mom has seen it at her swingers parties.

But hey, if you want to scapegoat Moore, go right ahead. Don't let causality derail your illogic train.

It's not illogical to think Moore cost Denver the game.

Yes, there were other mistakes. Yes, there were turnovers. Yes, there were other Ravens touchdowns.

But if Moore bats the ball down Denver wins. It's that simple. So, you, and other people who don't want to fault Moore can yell from the rooftops about how he's not at fault, but that is false.

If he bats the ball down, Denver wins. It's really that simple. Regardless of any other play in the game. You can't argue otherwise.

[wayninja]

It's not illogical to think Moore cost Denver the game.

Yes, there were other mistakes. Yes, there were turnovers. Yes, there were other Ravens touchdowns.

But if Moore bats the ball down Denver wins. It's that simple. So, you, and other people who don't want to fault Moore can yell from the rooftops about how he's not at fault, but that is false.

If he bats the ball down, Denver wins. It's really that simple. Regardless of any other play in the game. You can't argue otherwise.

I didn't say it wasn't his fault. I also didn't say it was his fault. I'm not defending Moore, I'm simply saying the chain of causality does not begin and end with Moore.

It's true that if Moore bats that ball down, we win. It's also true that if we made that field goal in the 2nd quarter, we win. If Manning doesn't throw a pick-six, we win. If Bailey isn't burned twice for TD's, we win. You can't argue otherwise.

Why Is that one moment somehow more critical to the end result than the other events that led there? It is illogical to think that this single play cost us the game. Especially in light of the fact that it only tied the game... we hadn't even lost yet.

[BroncoWave]

~ I'm glad you don't run this team

That is the dumbest shit I hear here....and I hear it said a lot, by a lot of people to a lot of people.

Yeah genius, I don't run the ******* team. I am just a fan expressing an opinion. You think I give two shits if you agree with me?

If you don't give a shit what anyone thinks of your opinion you should probably just delete your account. TIA.

[WARHORSE]

I think there are a number of possibilities that could take place concerning the Oline and Kuper. I like Kuper but not on the sidelines. And his latest injury is not related to his original ankle crush, and his forearm altogether different.

Injuries are a part of the game, and hopefully we have a good plan going forward along the oline in order to make it BETTER.

[TXBRONC]

I think it's very doubtful that Dumervil and Kuper would be cut D.J. is a little more likely but I still think ends up staying as well.
I don't understand your thinking cutting only to replace him with a guy who is going to want to be paid in the same range as Dumervil because his sack totals are similar to Dumervil's over the last two years. Elvis is the better player.

Why would we want a running back with as much mileage on his body as Jackson has? No thank you.

[TXBRONC]

kuper will renegotiate if need be-- he's an organizational favorite for good reasons, they won't cut him. . .

we'll see if DJ gets the same chance, but he'll need to reduce that number pretty drastically to be here next year. . . i wouldn't be shocked if they asked doom to restructure, but i can't see moving him, and breaking up our dynamic duo. . .

I can't see Denver asking Dumervil to restructure. He's proven he's well worth what he's being paid.

[Dapper Dan]

I wonder if teams go into games thinking "Our number one goal is to make sure our safeties don't get beat. If we can do that, we win. Turnovers are irrelevant. Who cares if we miss any field goals. Third downs aren't important. Our corners can get beat. We can make all of those mistakes, but as long as our safeties don't get beat, we will win. If a safety gets beat one time, God help us, it's over. But only in the fourth quarter. Quarters 1-3 and overtime aren't important."

[TXBRONC]

Are slim and king fighting over a sandwich?

Bacon.

[slim]

If you don't give a shit what anyone thinks of your opinion you should probably just delete your account. TIA.

Good one.

Because the only reason to be here is so I can impress people with my opinions and look for e-pats on the back. Right?

[slim]

It's not illogical to think Moore cost Denver the game.

Yes, there were other mistakes. Yes, there were turnovers. Yes, there were other Ravens touchdowns.

But if Moore bats the ball down Denver wins. It's that simple. So, you, and other people who don't want to fault Moore can yell from the rooftops about how he's not at fault, but that is false.

If he bats the ball down, Denver wins. It's really that simple. Regardless of any other play in the game. You can't argue otherwise.

Yeah, pretty much.

Hey MO, for the record, I don't wish death on Rahim Moore. Maybe just some mild IBS and erectile disfunction.

[BroncoWave]

Good one.

Because the only reason to be here is so I can impress people with my opinions and look for e-pats on the back. Right?

I mostly just think you should delete your account. The reason is unimportant.

[slim]

I mostly just think you should delete your account. The reason is unimportant.

OK, fair enough.

Hey BTB, do you know what a pink sock is?

[BroncoWave]

OK, fair enough.

Hey BTB, do you know what a pink sock is?

I just looked it up on Urban Dictionary. Definitely was not aware of that term before now.

[SR]

OK, fair enough.

Hey BTB, do you know what a pink sock is?

Why is everyone so hateful toward you lately?

[Dapper Dan]

I just looked it up on Urban Dictionary. Definitely was not aware of that term before now.

It was worse than I imagined.

[slim]

Why is everyone so hateful toward you lately?

I don't know, Red.

I think they are still hurting from the loss and are lashing out at me. But that is just a guess.

[dogfish]

Why is everyone so hateful toward you lately?

you can only have so many big bucks in the herd. . .


:D

[TXBRONC]

OK, fair enough.

Hey BTB, do you know what a pink sock is?

I can't say I've ever heard of a prolapse colon being refered to as pink sock.

I do not know that cacassian women more like to suffer from it than men. So what are you getting at Slim?

[slim]

I can't say I've ever heard of a prolapse colon being refered to as pink sock.

I do not know that cacassian women more like to suffer from it than men. So what are you getting at Slim?

I was just trying to expand BTB's vocabulary and give him an easy way to explain to his doctor what the problem is.

[TXBRONC]

I was just trying to expand BTB's vocabulary and give him an easy way to explain to his doctor what the problem is.

He's a little to young for that problem but hemorrhoids are a possibility.

[slim]

He's a little to young problem but hemorrhoids are a possibility.

You would think so. But that ass has taken quite a pounding.

[TXBRONC]

You would think so. But that ass has taken quite a pounding.

That's information I do not need to know.

[BroncoWave]

That's information I do not need to know.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry, not everyone is as obsessed with ass-poundings as Slim. Figures he would know all about what a pink sock is.

[slim]

Thank God for Valerie Hunter. Right BTB?

I mean, it's because of her that you can still lead a fairly normal life.

[spikerman]

I wonder if teams go into games thinking "Our number one goal is to make sure our safeties don't get beat. If we can do that, we win. Turnovers are irrelevant. Who cares if we miss any field goals. Third downs aren't important. Our corners can get beat. We can make all of those mistakes, but as long as our safeties don't get beat, we will win. If a safety gets beat one time, God help us, it's over. But only in the fourth quarter. Quarters 1-3 and overtime aren't important."

All of this is true, but I'd bet any coach worth his salt would love his chances if could have the opposing team 70 yards from the end zone, needing a TD to tie, with 1:15 left .... that is as long as his safeties don't get beat.

[Dapper Dan]

All of this is true, but I'd bet any coach worth his salt would love his chances if could have the opposing team 70 yards from the end zone, needing a TD to tie, with 1:15 left .... that is as long as his safeties don't get beat.

Or have your HoF QB throw an into late in OT.

I'm sorry. I still have higher expectations for PFM.

While at UT he learned General Neyland's 7 maxims. Number 1 is "The team that makes the fewest mistakes will win." He's a Hall of Fame quarterback and one of the best ever. But he just can't finish a playoff game, it seems. It's inexcusable to me.

Moore messed up. He didn't do his job. It sucks, but I didn't have a lot of faith in him to begin with. He's simply being used as a scapegoat by fans.

[wayninja]

Or have your HoF QB throw an into late in OT.

I'm sorry. I still have higher expectations for PFM.

While at UT he learned General Neyland's 7 maxims. Number 1 is "The team that makes the fewest mistakes will win." He's a Hall of Fame quarterback and one of the best ever. But he just can't finish a playoff game, it seems. It's inexcusable to me.

Moore messed up. He didn't do his job. It sucks, but I didn't have a lot of faith in him to begin with. He's simply being used as a scapegoat by fans.


Pretty much. It seems to me like there's lots of blame to go around, but it's real easy to blame the unpopular, near-rookie. I guess in a sea of mistakes, the most ridiculous one stands out. Fact of the matter is, that mistake cost us 7 points, which is a minority of the points due to mistakes. He deserves the ridicule, he's simply not the only one.

[spikerman]

Pretty much. It seems to me like there's lots of blame to go around, but it's real easy to blame the unpopular, near-rookie. I guess in a sea of mistakes, the most ridiculous one stands out. Fact of the matter is, that mistake cost us 7 points, which is a minority of the points due to mistakes. He deserves the ridicule, he's simply not the only one.

I can only speak for me, but I have never claimed that nobody else made mistakes. The reason Moore is being called out, imo, is that in a football game, players fumble, players throw interceptions, defensive backs get beat, it all sucks, but an NFL safety should never be that far out of position and misplay a ball that badly on what is one of the simplest and most basic coverages in the game. My guess is that most people would have let it go by now if he had fallen, or tipped it but the receiver still caught it, etc. Instead, he, a pro football player who is paid a lot of money to understand his position, played it like a pop-warner kid who until that play was an offensive lineman.

I'm not part of the cut Moore crowd, but I will say this, he had better learn from this.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry, not everyone is as obsessed with ass-poundings as Slim. Figures he would know all about what a pink sock is.

He's giving you a little bit of grief but hey you do that as well.

[Simple Jaded]

Moore is not being used as a scapegoat. Far as I've seen there's two main points.

1) His gaffe is too egregious to overcome, not only with fans, but inside the lockerroom. A lot of people have made this point, and not just pissed off fans. I don't agree with it whatsoever but there is something to it and I wouldn't be surprised if Moore is moved.

2 and most important) Moore's gaffe is by far the single biggest ****up in that game, maybe of the season. Anyone questioning whether it cost Denver the game is being pretentiously objective. The Broncos had overcome all the "causality" of Manning's so called mistakes and horrible reffing until Moore made multiple mistakes on one play that cost his team a 7 point lead with 30 seconds left.

Manning's only mistake came in OT and cost Denver a win they should have already had, this fact may be the only thing that save Moore's spot on this team. Because of Moore the Broncos had to win that game twice and couldn't do it. It's hard enough to beat the same team twice in one season, much less twice in one game.......

[Ravage!!!]

Bailey getting beat like a dog over and over again is just as bad. If you want to point out that Champ didn't get "beat" on one of the TDs, then he absolutely made a terrible turn to go after the ball. Something I would expect more from him.

Manning's fumble and... ESPECIALLY.. that late INT was bad. The INT in over-time can not be excused as a "all QBs throw INTs"... not when the decision to make that throw, (the most recognized "dumb move" throw that you can make) in OT, in the playoffs, on your side of the field.

The 70 yrd reception was horrendous. But there is no way that game is on his shoulders when so many other things can be pointed out along the way.

[Dapper Dan]

Kickers get paid to make kicks. "It's that simple". So what about Prater? That was a costly miss.

Turnovers 3-1. We lost the turnover difference. That will lose you games.

Overall, it was a bad game. If the team would have played well, it's a win. "It's that simple".

I don't know why people want to look at one moment in the game and say that won or lost the game. I don't think "It's that simple". Sixty+ minutes of football being narrowed down to one single play. If anyone wants to believe that, that's fine. We cut Rahim Moore, because we don't need that mistake. Without him, we win. Right?

I will continue to believe we lost because the team sucked. They got outplayed in every phase except for special teams. Thank God for Trindon Holliday, or that game is a blowout.

[slim]

Moore is not being used as a scapegoat. Far as I've seen there's two main points.

1) His gaffe is too egregious to overcome, not only with fans, but inside the lockerroom. A lot of people have made this point, and not just pissed off fans. I don't agree with it whatsoever but there is something to it and I wouldn't be surprised if Moore is moved.

2 and most important) Moore's gaffe is by far the single biggest ****up in that game, maybe of the season. Anyone questioning whether it cost Denver the game is being pretentiously objective. The Broncos had overcome all the "causality" of Manning's so called mistakes and horrible reffing until Moore made multiple mistakes on one play that cost his team a 7 point lead with 30 seconds left.

Manning's only mistake came in OT and cost Denver a win they should have already had, this fact may be the only thing that save Moore's spot on this team.......

Agreed.

He is a lot closer to being moved this offseason than most people here realize. My understanding is he wasn't all that well liked in the locker room before this. I'm not sure he has any support left after it.

[Simple Jaded]

Agreed.

He is a lot closer to being moved this offseason than most people here realize. My understanding is he wasn't all that well liked in the locker room before this. I'm not sure he has any support left after it.

You know, I've heard that too. Sandy Clough has talked about it, Moore is not popular with his offensive teammates because of his attitude, and now there has to be concern about his defensive teammates after literally costing his team that game. He talked to a former player who says Moore is gonna need an advocate, someone in that lockerroom with enough clout to back him up. Fwiw.......

[slim]

You know, I've heard that too. Sandy Clough has talked about it, Moore is not popular with his offensive teammates because of his attitude, and now there has to be concern about his defensive teammates after literally costing his team that game. He talked to a former player who says Moore is gonna need an advocate, someone in that lockerroom with enough clout to back him up. Fwiw.......

Yeah, we'll see what happens. If he were a pro bowl caliber player, then maybe they keep him. But a below average saftey that gave away a playoff game? I just don't see it.

[Ravage!!!]

I will continue to believe we lost because the team sucked. They got outplayed in every phase except for special teams. Thank God for Trindon Holliday, or that game is a blowout.

Maybe. We were moving the ball pretty well on offense in the first half, and there is no reason to believe that we wouldn't have scored. Not to mention, the offense would have taken time off the clock while having those offensive possessions.

[Simple Jaded]

If half the people on this MB think like wayninja and half think like slim, whatya think the chances are half the lockerroom think like wayninja and half think like slim?

This is no ordinary ****up, this ****up is getting its own nickname, it's a ****up of historical proportions. The footnote will be Mannings OT int. In NFLN's Top10 there will be ten people ripping Moore's idiotic decisions and pathetic attempt at playing the ball, but there will be one jackoff talking about "people forget that Manning threw the int that put the Ravens in FG territory". It'll probably be the biggest jackoff of all, Mike Clit.......

[Simple Jaded]

I don't agree that Moore was a below average S though, and I don't agree that he should be moved.......

[slim]

I don't agree that Moore was a below average S though, and I don't agree that he should be moved.......

Well, fans rarely agree about a player's value (unless they are clearly all pro level or something).

What is it that you like about his game? Just curious.

[Simple Jaded]

Well, fans rarely agree about a player's value (unless they are clearly all pro level or something).

What is it that you like about his game? Just curious.

Like is a strong word for me when it comes to S's, suffice to say I didn't see him make a lot of noticeable mistakes. Especially compared to last season. He was solid, imo, which about on par with most S's.

A tepid remark from some jagoff on a message board, how's that for a ringing endorsement?.......

[slim]

Like is a strong word for me when it comes to S's, suffice to say I didn't see him make a lot of noticeable mistakes. Especially compared to last season. He was solid, imo, which about on par with most S's.......

This is what I hear from most people...that he showed a lot of improvement from his rookie year.

The thing that bothers me about that is he was one of the worst rookies I can remember seeing in a long time. So he basically went from being total crap to maybe somewhat serviceable. Not really a strong endorsement.

IDK, it just seems like a position that would be fairly easy to upgrade.

[wayninja]

Moore is not being used as a scapegoat. Far as I've seen there's two main points.

When someone says something like "Moore cost us the game", that's the definition of using someone as a scapegoat.


1) His gaffe is too egregious to overcome, not only with fans, but inside the lockerroom. A lot of people have made this point, and not just pissed off fans. I don't agree with it whatsoever but there is something to it and I wouldn't be surprised if Moore is moved.

A gaffe is a gaffe. If you want to quantify it, then it's worth 7 points. Which I already illustrated is only a fraction of what 'gaffes' cost us that game. If fans etc want to be emotional in their analysis about it, it's fine by me, but it doesn't make it 'fact'.


2 and most important) Moore's gaffe is by far the single biggest ****up in that game, maybe of the season. Anyone questioning whether it cost Denver the game is being pretentiously objective. The Broncos had overcome all the "causality" of Manning's so called mistakes and horrible reffing until Moore made multiple mistakes on one play that cost his team a 7 point lead with 30 seconds left.

I'm not sure what the difference between being objective and 'pretentiously' objective. You think i'm being objective in an attempt to impress you? Meh, don't care if you are impressed, but will still be objective.

You can argue the causality chain all you want, it makes no difference if it's the first link that breaks or the last, the chain still breaks. If that weren't enough, what you still don't seem to get is that his mistake only let Baltimore tie it. We still had a chance to win until Manning threw a pick in Q2 of overtime. If you really want to point at straw that broke our back, that was it. You are never going to convince me that a safety making a mental mistake or a really bad play is somehow orders of magnitude worse than a pick-six or game ending interception. You may think one is worse than the other, that's fine, but ultimately they have the same effect.




Manning's only mistake came in OT and cost Denver a win they should have already had, this fact may be the only thing that save Moore's spot on this team. Because of Moore the Broncos had to win that game twice and couldn't do it. It's hard enough to beat the same team twice in one season, much less twice in one game.......

Manning only made 1 mistake, even though he had 3 turnovers? Champ's mistakes get no mention at all? Missed fieldgoals are just par for the course, but safeties can never be beat?

Just Moore... Like I said, some of you have hatevision, which is fine, I don't care about Moore. I simply don't think you are being objective. Pretentious or otherwise.

[wayninja]

I can only speak for me, but I have never claimed that nobody else made mistakes. The reason Moore is being called out, imo, is that in a football game, players fumble, players throw interceptions, defensive backs get beat, it all sucks, but an NFL safety should never be that far out of position and misplay a ball that badly on what is one of the simplest and most basic coverages in the game. My guess is that most people would have let it go by now if he had fallen, or tipped it but the receiver still caught it, etc. Instead, he, a pro football player who is paid a lot of money to understand his position, played it like a pop-warner kid who until that play was an offensive lineman.

I'm not part of the cut Moore crowd, but I will say this, he had better learn from this.

I just can't get on board with this. Safeties get beat in this game all the time. Terrible interceptions that should never have been considered are made all the time. I really don't see how one should never happen and the other is dismissed as a part of the game. It just doesn't jive.

He clearly made a terrible play. Which, as far as I know, everyone in professional sports has done. *Shrugs*, a really bad play that costs a touch down ends up being the same as a closely, well defended play that goes for a touchdown.

[Simple Jaded]

Moore did cost the Broncos the game, that's not a "scapegoat", that's a "goat".

Fact; those seven points came on a play that a highschooler would have intercepted. If you spend much time around high school football you've seen high school kids make that play. Moore not only mistakes in coverage responsibilties that might have prevented Flacco from even making the throw but also in fundamental techniques in "high pointing" the ball.

Manning's first int was PI that went off his receivers hands, if you insist on calling that his mistake than I think you're going out of your way to spread the blame. His two fumbles were not even fumbles. Hence, his one mistake (that we know of) came in 2nd OT. Again, if you insist on calling these mistake that cost Denver the win then you're going outta your way to spread the blame.

As for Bailey, some believe that Bailey was supposed to have S help from.......wait for it.......wait for it.......that's right, Rahim Moore. But if you insist on blaming Bailey solely for those TD's at least concede the fact that these mistake were neither mental nor with 30 seconds left with a 7 point lead.

Moore's gaffe is nowhere near the same as a perfect pass that beats perfect coverage, it was a bad pass that was short, late and the eqauvalant of a really pretty punt.......

[Cugel]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one continually throwing Kuper under the bus. I'm just sick of hearing about how horrible Manny is, when Kuper is the one who isn't playing. Manny shouldn't be on the field. He shouldn't have to be. Your starting Guard shouldn't have to be a $700,000 player. Manny has done fine in Kuper's absence. If you have a problem with the play of Manny, then you have a problem with Kuper. I'm not saying Kuper is a bad player. I'm just sick of all the people trashing Beadles and Manny, like Kuper has brought so much to the table this year. Hopefully he never misses more than 2-3 games in a season from now on. I doubt it. I has a lot of weight on those legs. He's over thirty. But for the sake of the team, I hope he doesn't have anymore issues. He's started all 16 games only twice. Hopefully 2013 is the third time.

In the 2012 draft the Broncos considered drafting G David DeCastro, but he was taken by Pittsburgh at #24 so he was gone. I think G and DT are still high on their list of "things to get."

Remember the following:

1. DT Ty Warren is probably retiring. They spent $4 million on him for 2 years and his total contribution was to play the first 5 minutes of game 1 this year.

That means they need an additional DT. Perhaps Derek Wolfe will bulk up and play inside, but it doesn't look like it. They probably keep him outside and start him at LDE, since he handled that pretty well.

Meanwhile, the following players will have to be re-signed to MUCH bigger contracts:

2. Wesley Woodyard. He's due $3 million next year, but is in the last year of his contract. The Broncos will need to re-sign him to a long-term deal. That will mean an average of around $5 million Plus per year. He can get the money D.J. was going to make.

After a season with 111 tackles, 5.5 sacks and three INTs, he's worth it. Woodyard is turning into an All-Pro LB.

3. Dan Koppen is becoming a FA. He filled in admirably when J.D. Walton went down, and they need to re-sign him for depth. However, partly that will depend on the development of Phillip Blake. The Broncos have a surplus of Cs.

4. Ryan Clady. Re-negotiating his contract is job ONE this off-season.


Clady will absolutely be franchised by the Broncos if a multi-year extension can't be worked out this offseason. He turned down a five-year, $50 million extension last offseason and is said to be seeking more than $10 million per year. Clady has never missed a game in his five years in the league, starting all 80 contests.

It will be difficult to pay Clady much more than $10 million a year, but he certainly should be offered some significant incentive bonuses. They simply cannot afford to lose Ryan Clady, which means they better offer him a $55 million contract if that's what it takes to keep him.

Franchise LTs are almost as hard to find as Franchise QBs. Good young ones almost NEVER hit the FA market and are snapped up immediately if they do. Clady would probably be the most sought-after FA on the market if he were available.

[spikerman]

I just can't get on board with this. Safeties get beat in this game all the time. Terrible interceptions that should never have been considered are made all the time. I really don't see how one should never happen and the other is dismissed as a part of the game. It just doesn't jive.

He clearly made a terrible play. Which, as far as I know, everyone in professional sports has done. *Shrugs*, a really bad play that costs a touch down ends up being the same as a closely, well defended play that goes for a touchdown.

True, safeties get beat all the time, but how often in a prevent defense? At the NFL level I would guess almost never. Occasionally Hail Mary's work out, but it's usually because of a lucky bounce or some other odd occurence, not a safety completely blowing the coverage.

I also believe that no one play costs a team a game, but that play was very basic and would have rendered moot every bad play and bad call made that day. If it had been a tough play, it would be more understandable.

[Nomad]

I'm glad all you fellas are perfect at your job and were superstars when you played ball. Lay off the guy, he made a mistake and I'm sure he's learned from it.

[spikerman]

I'm glad all you fellas are perfect at your job and were superstars when you played ball. Lay off the guy, he made a mistake and I'm sure he's learned from it.

If I had his athletic ability and you paid me the kind of money he gets paid, I guarantee he doesn't get behind me in a prevent defense. Hell, at my age now, he doesn't get behind me even if I have to line up at my own 5 yard line.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't think I'm being biased, I think Moore totally ****** up and that he should be back as starting S for the Denver Broncos. I think Manning's TO's led to 17 points in an OT game they lost by 3 points, I just stop short calling three of those TO's "mistakes". Same goes for Bailey, he got beat on the second TD but I stop short of calling the first a mistake because we have no idea if he was supposed to have S help.

One thing I know is if Bailey were playing S and ****** up the same way Moore did it would be "Agony of Defeat" worthy footage, meaning we would be reliving that footage for the rest of our lives. And it would be fair.......

[Nomad]

If I had his athletic ability and you paid me the kind of money he gets paid, I guarantee he doesn't get behind me in a prevent defense. Hell, at my age now, he doesn't get behind me even if I have to line up at my own 5 yard line.

Sure that's what they all say, which is FOS. Yeah, he knew what he had to do as well and probably if he were sitting on the couch would say the same thing, but who knows what he was thinking/seeing in the moment.

[spikerman]

Sure that's what they all say, which is FOS. Yeah, he knew what he had to do as well and probably if he were sitting on the couch would say the same thing, but who knows what he was thinking/seeing in the moment.

The difference is that it was HIS job to make the play, not those of us sitting on the couch. I'm not on the "dump Rahim" bandwagon and hope he can come back from this, but to ignore how crucial of a play that was simply shows a complete disregard for the facts. Even Moore knew he screwed up. Life goes on, it's just a game, but as I've said multiple times he HAS to learn from it or it was for nothing.

[Simple Jaded]

I can imagine what Moore was thinking and seeing at that moment; he saw the pass coming his way and thought "I got this shit" and then saw the ball sail over his head and then thought "oh shit, I just royally ****** up".

He didn't even have to catch the ball, he could've knocked it down, he could've tackled Jones once he caught the ball (in bounds or otherwise), he could've even just interfered with Jones catching the ball. He could've done anything but what he actually did.

"Lol" all you want but I'm just as amused by your argument as you are with ours.......

[WARHORSE]

In the 2012 draft the Broncos considered drafting G David DeCastro, but he was taken by Pittsburgh at #24 so he was gone. I think G and DT are still high on their list of "things to get."

Remember the following:

1. DT Ty Warren is probably retiring. They spent $4 million on him for 2 years and his total contribution was to play the first 5 minutes of game 1 this year.

That means they need an additional DT. Perhaps Derek Wolfe will bulk up and play inside, but it doesn't look like it. They probably keep him outside and start him at LDE, since he handled that pretty well.

Meanwhile, the following players will have to be re-signed to MUCH bigger contracts:

2. Wesley Woodyard. He's due $3 million next year, but is in the last year of his contract. The Broncos will need to re-sign him to a long-term deal. That will mean an average of around $5 million Plus per year. He can get the money D.J. was going to make.

After a season with 111 tackles, 5.5 sacks and three INTs, he's worth it. Woodyard is turning into an All-Pro LB.

3. Dan Koppen is becoming a FA. He filled in admirably when J.D. Walton went down, and they need to re-sign him for depth. However, partly that will depend on the development of Phillip Blake. The Broncos have a surplus of Cs.

4. Ryan Clady. Re-negotiating his contract is job ONE this off-season.



It will be difficult to pay Clady much more than $10 million a year, but he certainly should be offered some significant incentive bonuses. They simply cannot afford to lose Ryan Clady, which means they better offer him a $55 million contract if that's what it takes to keep him.

Franchise LTs are almost as hard to find as Franchise QBs. Good young ones almost NEVER hit the FA market and are snapped up immediately if they do. Clady would probably be the most sought-after FA on the market if he were available.

Ryan will be franchised for sure. I think he wants bigger money than Denver will pay, though I hope we get him signed.
Banaan should be replaced.
Vickerson stays for depth.
Unrein stays, he still has upside.
Koppen wont get more than a year or two contract and it wont be much regardless due to his age. We do not want to go into the season with him as our starter.
Woodyard is not a high priority this offseason, though we want to extend him.


If we make the cuts I think we will, Denver has a lot of wiggle room to sign some good players should they desire to do so. Its hard to say who will become a priority for them to sign.

I guess according to reports, they are candidates to trade for Revis Island........that tells us a little doesnt it?

[spikerman]

I like Bannan, but he's a two down player at this point. I would like the Broncos to resign him for depth, though.

[spikerman]

Ok, I'm leaving the Rahim Moore play behind me. Hopefully Rahim goes on to have success either in Denver or somewhere else. One bad play does not a career make.

I do have one question for some of you though; would you still be mad if, given that same scenario, the pass would have been incomplete and the official ruled DPI which ultimately led to a TD and the same result we have now? What if the replay showed that Moore did not commit DPI? How mad would you be on 2 Feb? Would you say, "Hey, well the ref screwed up, but all of those mistakes early on were just as big as that play"?

I'm just curious.

[Cugel]

Ryan will be franchised for sure. I think he wants bigger money than Denver will pay, though I hope we get him signed.
Banaan should be replaced.
Vickerson stays for depth.
Unrein stays, he still has upside.
Koppen wont get more than a year or two contract and it wont be much regardless due to his age. We do not want to go into the season with him as our starter.
Woodyard is not a high priority this offseason, though we want to extend him.


If we make the cuts I think we will, Denver has a lot of wiggle room to sign some good players should they desire to do so. Its hard to say who will become a priority for them to sign.

I guess according to reports, they are candidates to trade for Revis Island........that tells us a little doesnt it?

You can't keep franchising Clady! They have to re-sign him this off-season, because if they don't they will lose him in 2014. And he could be good for another 8 years perhaps. And it costs a high first round draft pick to get a franchise LT. Really good ones get drafted in the top 10. Clady at #11 or 12 was a steal. If Denver had even 1 draft pick lower KC would have grabbed Clady.

That means they WILL prioritize re-signing Clady for the long-term. That is the #1 off-season priority. They do NOT want to have some rookie or mediocre LT protecting Manning's blind side. And after a franchise QB, LT is THE most important position on the team.

He's the guy who guards against the opponent's best pass-rusher putting your $18 million QB on IR!

[MOtorboat]

Ok, I'm leaving the Rahim Moore play behind me. Hopefully Rahim goes on to have success either in Denver or somewhere else. One bad play does not a career make.

I do have one question for some of you though; would you still be mad if, given that same scenario, the pass would have been incomplete and the official ruled DPI which ultimately led to a TD and the same result we have now? What if the replay showed that Moore did not commit DPI? How mad would you be on 2 Feb? Would you say, "Hey, well the ref screwed up, but all of those mistakes early on were just as big as that play"?

I'm just curious.

Was it Charles Dimry that had the phantom PI called against him in the Jacksonville game?

No. I'd still remember it.

[wayninja]

Ok, I'm leaving the Rahim Moore play behind me. Hopefully Rahim goes on to have success either in Denver or somewhere else. One bad play does not a career make.

I do have one question for some of you though; would you still be mad if, given that same scenario, the pass would have been incomplete and the official ruled DPI which ultimately led to a TD and the same result we have now? What if the replay showed that Moore did not commit DPI? How mad would you be on 2 Feb? Would you say, "Hey, well the ref screwed up, but all of those mistakes early on were just as big as that play"?

I'm just curious.


The mistakes early on would have opened the door for this scenario.

If Moore had made a tight play on the ball and a lucky break due to deflection or just being able to go higher than Moore to snatch it out of the air, and the result was still a touchdown, would Moore have cost us the game?

Just curious.

I find it funny how linearly people think about this. If we kick a fieldgoal in Q2, this play doesn't matter, but because it happened earlier in the game than this play, it's completely irrelevant?

Just odd.

[MOtorboat]

The mistakes early on would have opened the door for this scenario.

If Moore had made a tight play on the ball and a lucky break due to deflection or just being able to go higher than Moore to snatch it out of the air, and the result was still a touchdown, would Moore have cost us the game?

Just curious.

I find it funny how linearly people think about this. If we kick a fieldgoal in Q2, this play doesn't matter, but because it happened earlier in the game than this play, it's completely irrelevant?

Just odd.

No, it's not irrelevant, but it can be overcomed. And the Broncos did overcome every mistake and had a seven point lead with 40 seconds left, and had Baltimore backed into a 3rd and 10 in their own territory.

The ONLY redeeming factor to Moore's mistake is that it led to overtime, not a direct loss. That's it. It was a monumental mistake that cost Denver the game. There's no other way to look at it.

[spikerman]

The mistakes early on would have opened the door for this scenario.

If Moore had made a tight play on the ball and a lucky break due to deflection or just being able to go higher than Moore to snatch it out of the air, and the result was still a touchdown, would Moore have cost us the game?

Just curious.

I find it funny how linearly people think about this. If we kick a fieldgoal in Q2, this play doesn't matter, but because it happened earlier in the game than this play, it's completely irrelevant?

Just odd.

I think I addressed your Moore tipping the ball scenario earlier. I can only speak for me, but I would have felt snakebitten, but that's about it (I think).

I don't buy into the "well, if Denver had made the field goal it wouldn't matter" argument because if any of those plays change, who knows how that would have affected things. That's why I stipulated under "that same scenario".

[slim]

I'm glad all you fellas are perfect at your job and were superstars when you played ball. Lay off the guy, he made a mistake and I'm sure he's learned from it.

:lol:

If I made a mistake as egregious as that, where I completely ****** up the most basic element of my job and it cost my company the way that play cost the Broncos....I would be fired on the spot.

[BroncoWave]

:lol:

If I made a mistake as egregious as that, where I completely ****** up the most basic element of my job and it cost my company the way that play cost the Broncos....I would be fired on the spot.

If you're situation was the same as Moore's where you had been a solid contributor to the company and had potential to contribute much more in the future you boss would be an f'ing moron.

If NFL teams cut a player every time they made a play that cost their team the game, pretty much no NFL players would remain. The Colts would have just said bye-bye to Manning right after the Saints Super Bowl.

[slim]

If you're situation was the same as Moore's where you had been a solid contributor to the company and had potential to contribute much more in the future you boss would be an f'ing moron.

If NFL teams cut a player every time they made a play that cost their team the game, pretty much no NFL players would remain. The Colts would have just said bye-bye to Manning right after the Saints Super Bowl.

I like how you are trying to explain to me how the real world works. It's cute.

[wayninja]

Moore did cost the Broncos the game, that's not a "scapegoat", that's a "goat".

You can keep saying that, but the game wasn't over then. So I'll just keep saying no he didn't. Oh, sure, he contributed to it, but there was more football than just this. Quit acting like this was the 1 anomaly in an otherwise air-tight game.


Fact; those seven points came on a play that a highschooler would have intercepted. If you spend much time around high school football you've seen high school kids make that play. Moore not only mistakes in coverage responsibilties that might have prevented Flacco from even making the throw but also in fundamental techniques in "high pointing" the ball.

That's not really a fact. I have never attempted to deny that Moore made a mistake, and a costly one. But the difference between a minor mistake that costs a touchdown, a crazy good/lucky pass that costs a touchdown, and a play that a special olympics reject would have handled better costing a touchdown is still 0 points. You are trying to convince me that because the mistake was more flagrant than other mistakes, that the other mistakes don't matter, and it simply doesn't wash.


Manning's first int was PI that went off his receivers hands, if you insist on calling that his mistake than I think you're going out of your way to spread the blame. His two fumbles were not even fumbles. Hence, his one mistake (that we know of) came in 2nd OT. Again, if you insist on calling these mistake that cost Denver the win then you're going outta your way to spread the blame.

It's an interception. Do we really need to argue about the circumstances? He threw the ball into very tight coverage, which risks a deflection, which is what happened. It's a mistake and it goes as a Interception. I'm not going out of my way by simply explaining what happened. It was a calculated risk and he lost the gamble. It's that simple.

Now the 3rd turnover is what seals the game. We lose because of that pick. That's actually the last time we had possession of the ball, so I'm not sure how that mistake is somehow less important than the one that brought them to overtime. At the very least, it's a tie.

I don't recall 2 fumbles by manning, only 1. And it was a fumble. I don't really want to get into tuck rule bullshit, again, you keep the ball like that and it gets away from you, it's your mistake. Regardless of whether or not it was a 'good' call, which is definitely debatable and not at all definitive.



As for Bailey, some believe that Bailey was supposed to have S help from.......wait for it.......wait for it.......that's right, Rahim Moore. But if you insist on blaming Bailey solely for those TD's at least concede the fact that these mistake were neither mental nor with 30 seconds left with a 7 point lead.

Bailey was burned several times. He was out of position one of those times. Just look at the tape, it's a fact. You can blame more if you want, seems the popular thing to do...


Moore's gaffe is nowhere near the same as a perfect pass that beats perfect coverage, it was a bad pass that was short, late and the eqauvalant of a really pretty punt.......

Again, you are arguing the magnitude of the mistake in the play. I'm arguing the actual numerical results of those mistakes.

[dogfish]

come on, guys. . . we all know that moore lost the game on that play, even he knows it-- but still, it's unfair to single him out by acknowledging it. . . it's nicer to him if we all pretend it wasn't his fault. . . he's a winner too, gold stars for everybody!

[slim]

come on, guys. . . we all know that moore lost the game on that play, even he knows it-- but still, it's unfair to single him out by acknowledging it. . . it's nicer to him if we all pretend it wasn't his fault. . . he's a winner too, gold stars for everybody!

I am thinking about taking the team out for burgers and shakes and then maybe to the petting zoo.

[dogfish]

I am thinking about taking the team out for burgers and shakes and then maybe to the petting zoo.

you should get rahim an ice cream cone, that would help him feel better. . .

don't worry little billy, we'll get 'em next time!

[slim]

you should get rahim an ice cream cone, that would help him feel better. . .

don't worry little billy, we'll get 'em next time!

Yeah, it's nobody’s fault. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I just hope they all had fun!

[slim]

Dog, you know what has been bothering me about the NFL lately?

[chazoe60]

I think instead of having winners and losers (Rahim Moore is a huge loser BTW) we should just take all the points scored at the end of the game and divide them evenly between the two teams, I call it point redistribution, Obama is heavily in favor of this plan.

[slim]

I think we should all pitch in and buy Rahim a mock lombardi trophy.

I mean, he tried his best, so he does deserve to have one.

[chazoe60]

I think we should all pitch in and buy Rahim a mock lombardi trophy.

I mean, he tried his best, so he does deserve to have one.
Only if I can bludgeon him to death with it. :D

[dogfish]

Dog, you know what has been bothering me about the NFL lately?

roger goodell trying to make it a non-contact sport?

:noidea:

okay, tell me. . .

[slim]

roger goodell trying to make it a non-contact sport?

:noidea:

okay, tell me. . .

The inactive list. I mean, what kind of message does that send to the players? That some are worth more to the team than others? Is that really an appropriate message? I think not.

I really hope the rules committee addresses this in the offseason. Like maybe institute a rule that all players should receive equal playing time or something.

What do you think?

Oh, I also think the home team should be tasked with providing the post-game juice boxes and orange slices.

[chazoe60]

IMO the worst thing about the NFL right now is the Pass Interference bullshit. It's inconsistent, ticky-tacky, and a ridiculously punitive penalty for the defense. It's the closest thing we have in the NFL to NBA illegitimacy.

Offensive PI is ten yards and do the down over and DPI is a spot foul and if in the endzone it's spotted at the 1? Yeah, that's balanced. How about loss of down for the O and marked off as many yards as the play went down the field?

This was one of the worst years I can remember for the officiating and it wasn't just because of the replacements.

[slim]

IMO the worst thing about the NFL right now is the Pass Interference bullshit. It's inconsistent, ticky-tacky, and a ridiculously punitive penalty for the defense. It's the closest thing we have in the NFL to NBA illegitimacy.

Offensive PI is ten yards and do the down over and DPI is a spot foul and if in the endzone it's spotted at the 1? Yeah, that's balanced. How about loss of down for the O and marked off as many yards as the play went down the field?

This was one of the worst years I can remember for the officiating and it wasn't just because of the replacements.

Yeah, it's bullshit, but there is no way they change it. The more scoring, the happier they are.

[chazoe60]

Yeah, it's bullshit, but there is no way they change it. The more scoring, the happier they are.

Gotta please the half-wits I guess. Maybe we could just distract them by puting something shiny at the corner of the screen meanwhile we could get the NFL back to playing FOOTBALL for the intelligent fans like Slim, Dog, and myself. :D

[wayninja]

come on, guys. . . we all know that moore lost the game on that play, even he knows it-- but still, it's unfair to single him out by acknowledging it. . . it's nicer to him if we all pretend it wasn't his fault. . . he's a winner too, gold stars for everybody!

I was thinking like gold stars for nobody. Except maybe Holliday, he's the only one that really played well.

But hey, if it takes the sting out to say one guy did it all, more power to ya.

[Timmy!]

Dog, you know what has been bothering me about the NFL lately?

Rahim Moore.