View Full Version : Marshall might find himself on sidelines Saturday
Lonestar
08-20-2009, 07:47 PM
Updated: August 20, 2009, 7:59 PM EDT
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. (AP) - Broncos coach Josh McDaniels says he hasn't decided if recalcitrant receiver Brandon Marshall will play in Denver's preseason game at Seattle this weekend.
Marshall spent a second straight day working almost exclusively with the scout team Thursday, 24 hours after saying he was nowhere near mastering the new offense.
Marshall is upset with the Broncos over their refusal to redo his contract or trade him and with their handling of his acquittal on battery charges last week, when players were told by a staffer not to say they were happy for him.
McDaniels said after practice Thursday that he hadn't decided on playing plans for Marshall, who missed the preseason opener at San Francisco last week while attending his court case in Atlanta.
He did say kicker Matt Prater, who was excused from Thursday's workout for unspecified reasons, would play against the Seahawks on Saturday night.
But McDaniels said he would meet with his staff later to determine whether Marshall would play or if safety Brian Dawkins would make his debut in a Denver uniform.
Dawkins, who joined the Broncos this offseason after 14 years in Philadelphia, returned to practice this week with a club on his right hand, which was surgically repaired a couple of weeks ago.
Dawkins has been practicing sporadically and even picked off a pass Wednesday night.
"We're going to sit down in a little bit and talk about how long we're going to play whom and how that is all going to factor out. But certainly everybody who is out here on the practice field is just trying to get ready to go and play in a game and we're looking forward to that, too," McDaniels said.
After practice Thursday, Marshall spent more than 30 minutes talking with assistant linebackers coach Roman Phifer at midfield while former Broncos great Rod Smith spent the same amount of time tutoring second-year wideout Eddie Royal about 60 yards away.
Smith formerly served as Marshall's mentor after the fourth-year pro was suspended for last season's opener over a series of domestic disputes.
Reporters were shooed away before getting a chance to speak with either Marshall or Smith, who declined an invitation to go to the media room, according to a team spokesman.
Marshall boycotted the team's offseason workouts, at first to recover from March 31 hip surgery, and then in protest of his contract and what he felt was the team's misdiagnosis of his hip injury.
He pulled up lame with a hamstring injury three days into training camp and missed two weeks before returning to practice Sunday.
His agent, Kennard McGuire, met with McDaniels this week at the team's headquarters, presumably to talk about renegotiating his contract. Neither McGuire or McDaniels would say whether a trade request was reissued this week on behalf of Marshall, however.
Coming off back-to-back 100-catch seasons, Marshall, who started in the Pro Bowl six months ago, has vastly outperformed his contract, which calls for him to make $2.2 million this year.
Now, he said he has "trust issues" with the Broncos over their handling of his acquittal.
Between courtroom sessions at his trial last week, Marshall caught up with Roddy White, who held out from the Atlanta Falcons' training camp until he received a six-year, $50 million contract extension that includes nearly $19 million in guarantees.
White and Marshall have had nearly identical seasons the last two years, with White accumulating 2,584 yards receiving with 13 touchdown catches to Marshall's 2,590 yards and 13 TDs.
"He was a guy who worked. He paid his dues the past two years, put up some big numbers," Marshall said. "He deserved to get paid and he did. I'm excited for Roddy and his future with the Falcons."
He can't say the same for his future with the Broncos right now.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9955608/Marshall-might-find-himself-on-sidelines-Saturday
If he doesn't know the plays well enough to not be relegated to the scout team and practice with the Broncos offense, I don't see how he could start on Saturday.
MOtorboat
08-20-2009, 08:18 PM
I guess it's probably just me, but employees who won't motivate themselves when given every opportunity to do so, are worthless.
dogfish
08-20-2009, 08:19 PM
if dawkins isn't able to go, they should start marshall at safety. . . . :lol:
I guess it's probably just me, but employees who won't motivate themselves when given every opportunity to do so, are worthless.
No, I don't disagree with you on that, I just have seen no 'facts' that indicate that is the case with Marshall.
if dawkins isn't able to go, they should start marshall at safety. . . . :lol:
Maybe Seattle needs a safety, since he ran as the Seahawks satefy on the scout team. ;)
MOtorboat
08-20-2009, 08:37 PM
No, I don't disagree with you on that, I just have seen no 'facts' that indicate that is the case with Marshall.
Besides being relegated to scout team because he won't learn the offense?
The guy is pouting in practice, complaining to the media, meeting with the coaches with his agent present...
What "facts" do you need?
I want him to be a Bronco. I really do.
But it's pretty clear he doesn't want to be here. It's pretty clear he's a disgruntled employee. Are you really going to dispute that?
Besides being relegated to scout team because he won't learn the offense?/QUOTE]
The "won't" is your opinion, not a fact.
[QUOTE]The guy is pouting in practice, complaining to the media, meeting with the coaches with his agent present...
Number one receivers coming off an injury aren't put in as scout gunners and safeties.
What "facts" do you need?
Something that isn't pure speculation as to why he is behind in knowing the system.
I want him to be a Bronco. I really do.
But it's pretty clear he doesn't want to be here. It's pretty clear he's a disgruntled employee. Are you really going to dispute that?
Even when asked if it was irreconcilable, he first indicated that it might be, but then said he loves playing football, and that's what he's doing, so it is hard not to be happy, or something like that.
He feels betrayed by the organization, for a number of reasons that are arguably valid. Don't get me wrong, I think he needs to realize he has no leverage other than to play his ass off, put up a third 100 reception season (assuming Orton is capable of producing a 100 reception receiver), and then get a big contract from Denver or another team.
I just tend to not assume facts, or assume the worst, but instead sit back, give the benefit of the doubt, until there is some proof to the contrary.
MOtorboat
08-20-2009, 08:56 PM
[QUOTE=MissouriBronc;716811]Besides being relegated to scout team because he won't learn the offense?/QUOTE]
The "won't" is your opinion, not a fact.
Number one receivers coming off an injury aren't put in as scout gunners and safeties.
Something that isn't pure speculation as to why he is behind in knowing the system.
Even when asked if it was irreconcilable, he first indicated that it might be, but then said he loves playing football, and that's what he's doing, so it is hard not to be happy, or something like that.
He feels betrayed by the organization, for a number of reasons that are arguably valid. Don't get me wrong, I think he needs to realize he has no leverage other than to play his ass off, put up a third 100 reception season (assuming Orton is capable of producing a 100 reception receiver), and then get a big contract from Denver or another team.
I just tend to not assume facts, or assume the worst, but instead sit back, give the benefit of the doubt, until there is some proof to the contrary.
Explain to me how he is not telling the media he is not happy. We'll start there.
When you can show me that he has not expressed his displeasure with being in Denver we can address the "facts." (He has done so, numerous times)
Feeling "betrayed by the organization" typically makes one a disgruntled employee, but, again, I could be wrong.
Explain to me how he is not telling the media he is not happy. We'll start there.
When you can show me that he has not expressed his displeasure with being in Denver we can address the "facts." (He has done so, numerous times)
Feeling "betrayed by the organization" typically makes one a disgruntled employee, but, again, I could be wrong.
First, I didn't say he wasn't happy, I said he has "arguably valid" reasons for being unhappy with the Broncos, but that he hasn't said he won't play in Denver.
Regardless, that still does not prove "he won't learn the offense" as you state.
MOtorboat
08-20-2009, 09:07 PM
First, I didn't say he wasn't happy, I said he has "arguably valid" reasons for being unhappy with the Broncos, but that he hasn't said he won't play in Denver.
Regardless, that still does not prove "he won't learn the offense" as you state.
Fine...mince words...he doesn't know the offense because he wasn't here to learn it. I guess that technically isn't that he "won't" learn it (although not attending minicamps and being "disengaged from practice" kind of suggests that he doesn't want to learn itm because he doesn't want to here, making him not want to learn the system...)..it's that he just wasn't here to learn the sytem...which...wait...we're going in circles.
He wasn't here. He won't "engage" himself in practice. He's asked for a trade...twice.
I will gladly make the assumption that he won't learn the offense.
Fine...mince words...he doesn't know the offense because he wasn't here to learn it. I guess that technically isn't that he "won't" learn it (although not attending minicamps and being "disengaged from practice" kind of suggests that he doesn't want to learn itm because he doesn't want to here, making him not want to learn the system...)..it's that he just wasn't here to learn the sytem...which...wait...we're going in circles.
He wasn't here. He won't "engage" himself in practice. He's asked for a trade...twice.
I will gladly make the assumption that he won't learn the offense.
How does he 'engage' in learning the offense when he is playing safety when the offense is in the huddle?
If McDaniels wanted him to learn the offense, he wouldn't have him simulating TJ Houshmanzada (spelling?), he would have had him involved in the BRONCOS offense installation, rather than the seahawks installation that the scout team was running.
I know anything that even 'hints' at anything but undieing love for McDaniels ruffles your feathers, but even though I have been very impressed with how McDaniels has run this TC, based on what has been reported, it just looks like McDaniels it trying to put Marshall in his place -- you don't treat your #1 receiver this way. When he is coming off of injury, you work him into your offense. They didn't put Moreno, on the scout team, the threw him in and let him start learning the offense on the fly, even though he made a bunch of mistake the first couple days (based on what McDaniels told the press), because he didn't know the offense, due to his HOLD OUT, not due to an injury.
I just choose not to assume I know facts that currently aren't in the public domain. We don't know if McDaniels is punishing him. We don't know if Marshall is lazy and hasn't tried to learn the offense. We don't know if neither is true, and this is just the effect of missing two weeks with an injury.
I choose not to demonize a player over a 'hunch'.
MOtorboat
08-20-2009, 09:20 PM
How does he 'engage' in learning the offense when he is playing safety when the offense is in the huddle?
If McDaniels wanted him to learn the offense, he wouldn't have him simulating TJ Houshmanzada (spelling?), he would have had him involved in the BRONCOS offense installation, rather than the seahawks installation that the scout team was running.
I know anything that even 'hints' at anything but undieing love for McDaniels ruffles your feathers, but even though I have been very impressed with how McDaniels has run this TC, based on what has been reported, it just looks like McDaniels it trying to put Marshall in his place -- you don't treat your #1 receiver this way. When he is coming off of injury, you work him into your offense. They didn't put Moreno, on the scout team, the threw him in and let him start learning the offense on the fly, even though he made a bunch of mistake the first couple days (based on what McDaniels told the press), because he didn't know the offense, due to his HOLD OUT, not due to an injury.
I just choose not to assume I know facts that currently aren't in the public domain. We don't know if McDaniels is punishing him. We don't know if Marshall is lazy and hasn't tried to learn the offense. We don't know if neither is true, and this is just the effect of missing two weeks with an injury.
I choose not to demonize a player over a 'hunch'.
For someone who claims not to make assumptions, you make a lot of assumptions.
Its ironic that you demonize McDaniels' decisions about Marshall and accuse me of assuming.
For someone who claims not to make assumptions, you make a lot of assumptions.
Its ironic that you demonize McDaniels' decisions about Marshall and accuse me of assuming.
I said it 'looks' like he is trying to put Marshall in his place, but we simply don't know.
MOtorboat
08-20-2009, 09:28 PM
I said it 'looks' like he is trying to put Marshall in his place, but we simply don't know.
You're right, we don't know. I've expressed this many times, and I've said that it appears he's disgruntled, and it is quite obvious that he is, although I have nothing to go off of then from what I read. It's also an assumption of mine, I guess. that he really doesn't want to be a part of the team...
But you do "know anything that even 'hints' at anything but undieing love for McDaniels ruffles your feathers"
Like I said...you assume a lot, too, while accusing me of assuming.
P.S. The preseason means nothing.
P.S. The preseason means nothing.
So I have read, many, many, many times.
You're right, we don't know. I've expressed this many times, and I've said that it appears he's disgruntled, and it is quite obvious that he is, although I have nothing to go off of then from what I read. It's also an assumption of mine, I guess. that he really doesn't want to be a part of the team...
But you do "know anything that even 'hints' at anything but undieing love for McDaniels ruffles your feathers"
Like I said...you assume a lot, too, while accusing me of assuming.
I guess this is what happens when the "most likely to win an argument" (which is probably less about my debating skills and more about me not letting things go) gets into a debate with the "most stubborn" poster on the board.
Face, it karma is conspiring against us when it comes to us having a debate/disagreement that ends with us coming to an agreement.
At least we ban both agree we want the Broncos to do well this year. :D
Broncos Mtnman
08-20-2009, 10:02 PM
Isn't it interesting that another player is accusing the new Mickey Mouse regime of not being straight up with him?
Isn't it also interesting that Mr. "I'm in control" Bowlen is making claims contrary to what the player is stating?
"Yeah, but Jay's a baby..."
"Yeah, but Marshall's a baby..."
I posted it in another thread, but the only constant in these two situations is the inexperienced head coach and his ego-centrical owner.
Broncos Mtnman
08-20-2009, 10:10 PM
Oh, and as far as the topic of this thread goes....
Mickey Mouse is showing Marshall who's boss. You don't put your Pro-bowl WR on the scout squad when he comes back from an injury.
Mickey can be an ass to a player he doesn't like if he wants. I'm just amazed at the slobbering love affair members who will give the inexperienced, Belechick wanna-be, head coach the benefit of the doubt, but the players are just being babies.
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2952/orangetm6.png
Isn't it interesting that another player is accusing the new Mickey Mouse regime of not being straight up with him?
Isn't it also interesting that Mr. "I'm in control" Bowlen is making claims contrary to what the player is stating?
"Yeah, but Jay's a baby..."
"Yeah, but Marshall's a baby..."
I posted it in another thread, but the only constant in these two situations is the inexperienced head coach and his ego-centrical owner.
Actually, from what I understand, a lot of Marshall's issues are related to his being angry with the organization in general over his hip injury, and being misdiagnosed by the medical staff.
Again, we don't really know what either he or McDaniels are thinking or saying to each other, so we really are flying blind here and guessing.
LRtagger
08-20-2009, 10:15 PM
Brandon has a right to be upset with the Broncos just as the Broncos have a right to be upset with Brandon. If Brandon never gets in trouble he already has his contract and there is no PR blunder. At the same time the Broncos should have handled the situation better.
Either way, the guy has missed too much practice and doesn't know the playbook. If anything the Brandon lovers should be happy he is not playing in the game. If he plays in a live game and doesn't know what he is doing, the risk of injury is increased.
He doesn't know the plays so he doesnt play, it is easy.
Putting him on the scout team is debatable, but I have already provided a legitimate scenario as to what a coach could be thinking by putting a guy like Marshall on the scout team. I am sorry that some think Brandon is above those types of duties, but I see it as him being on the field learning the offense and getting his workouts in. HE can stand in the secondary, see what the offense is doing, learn how they are gameplanning, and still be getting some running in instead of sitting on the sideline pouting or riding a stationary bike by himself. I highly doubt he is going full speed and I highly doubt he is seeing any contact. He has just as much of a chance of getting hurt running with the offense as he does running with a scout team. People are just making a big deal about it for no reason other than the fact that it is Brandon Marshall. Even Brandon himself said he doesn't mind and understands. But I guess the fans know better than both Josh and Brandon.
He will be ready for the season and he will be starting for Week 1. It is a shame it has been blown up like this because it just makes both Brandon and the Broncos look bad.
Brandon has a right to be upset with the Broncos just as the Broncos have a right to be upset with Brandon. If Brandon never gets in trouble he already has his contract and there is no PR blunder. At the same time the Broncos should have handled the situation better.
Either way, the guy has missed too much practice and doesn't know the playbook. If anything the Brandon lovers should be happy he is not playing in the game. If he plays in a live game and doesn't know what he is doing, the risk of injury is increased.
He doesn't know the plays so he doesnt play, it is easy.
Putting him on the scout team is debatable, but I have already provided a legitimate scenario as to what a coach could be thinking by putting a guy like Marshall on the scout team. I am sorry that some think Brandon is above those types of duties, but I see it as him being on the field learning the offense and getting his workouts in. HE can stand in the secondary, see what the offense is doing, learn how they are gameplanning, and still be getting some running in instead of sitting on the sideline pouting or riding a stationary bike by himself. I highly doubt he is going full speed and I highly doubt he is seeing any contact. He has just as much of a chance of getting hurt running with the offense as he does running with a scout team. People are just making a big deal about it for no reason other than the fact that it is Brandon Marshall. Even Brandon himself said he doesn't mind and understands. But I guess the fans know better than both Josh and Brandon.
He will be ready for the season and he will be starting for Week 1. It is a shame it has been blown up like this because it just makes both Brandon and the Broncos look bad.
I agree with virtually everything you posted.
For the record, I am not a Marshall lover. I love his talent, but hate his off field behavior. I just get sick of how fickle some fans are in the way they turn on guys that have busted their butt for this team. Is there any doubt when watching Marshall fight for every yard, that he isn't busting his butt, even though he was making the same money as Glenn Martinez, and guys like Darrel Jackson and guys that were cut were making more?
I think he has some legitimate beefs with the Broncos, but being upset about his contract isn't one of them. He IS underpaid for what he produces, but he was drafted in the 4th round, that's what happens. As has been said, many times, if he had kept his nose clean, he would most likely already have an extension.
On the scout team issue, this is the only place I disagree.
While you could make a case that putting him in at safety, gave him a chance to observe the offense, then why did they only do that in one practice? At three practices, he lined up to simulate TJ Housmanzada (not even going to attempt to look up how to spell that), which might be giving him exercise, but certainly not teaching him the offense.
Then, there is having him run as gunner on the punt scout team.
One of those I can see. But, all three, being 100% relegated to the scout team as a WR, safety and gunner, I'm just having trouble buying that. There certainly are faster guys on the team than Marshall that are down the depth charts and would make better gunners.
Now, this is a coach that takes a somewhat high school approach to running his training camp. He has a 15 year veteran center running a lap because he and Chris Simms botch a snap. Yesterday he had the first team defense run a lap, because they had 10 men in the huddle. I'm not sure what the players think of it (I'm guessing some aren't impressed), but I am hoping his militant style of running training camp will give us a more fundamentally sound team.
So, even if making Marshall run exclusively on the scout team, and three different positions is a punishment, it is consistant with the way he has run the rest of the training camp. It doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
Lonestar
08-20-2009, 11:08 PM
Actually, from what I understand, a lot of Marshall's issues are related to his being angry with the organization in general over his hip injury, and being misdiagnosed by the medical staff.
Again, we don't really know what either he or McDaniels are thinking or saying to each other, so we really are flying blind here and guessing.
FWIW Josh was not here when this happened..
so anyone saying it is a common bond between jay and marshall might be a bit off..
Lonestar
08-20-2009, 11:13 PM
FWIW the NE style of ST's are that punting are the first play on Defense and receiving them are the first play on Offense..
it is therefore logical to have your best players on the field during these times.. Starters if necessary..
I just get sick of how fickle some fans are in the way they turn on guys that have busted their butt for this team.
And I get sick of how fickle some fans are in the way they turn on an entire organization over a couple of players who haven't won anything.
FWIW Josh was not here when this happened..
so anyone saying it is a common bond between jay and marshall might be a bit off..
Agreed.
And I get sick of how fickle some fans are in the way they turn on an entire organization over a couple of players who haven't won anything.
As do I.
nbenallo33
08-20-2009, 11:50 PM
it dosnt matter if he plays or not its pre season!
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 10:00 AM
Now, this is a coach that takes a somewhat high school approach to running his training camp. He has a 15 year veteran center running a lap because he and Chris Simms botch a snap. Yesterday he had the first team defense run a lap, because they had 10 men in the huddle. I'm not sure what the players think of it (I'm guessing some aren't impressed), but I am hoping his militant style of running training camp will give us a more fundamentally sound team.
So, even if making Marshall run exclusively on the scout team, and three different positions is a punishment, it is consistant with the way he has run the rest of the training camp. It doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
This is just how he is used to coaching...it is the way NE does it.
I remember last year in NYJ with all the Favre hoopla...there was a clip of Favre running a lap with his center because they botched a snap in practice. It is just the way Belichick does it and the way the coaches from his tree do it.
Personally I could care less what the players think about it. For the past few years the players have been coddled. The reason I support McDaniels even through his mistakes is because he is doing things his way regardless of what some primadonna players expect.
I am still a Marshall fan. I want him to be a member of this team and produce for us. I just don't necessarily think he deserves a contract right now. When your off-the-field problems effect your play then it should effect your pay as well. I was also a supporter of Jay initially. I wanted him to stay and I wanted things to get worked out. Unfortunately I think Jay handled everything poorly and I think it's crap that he forced his way out of town...and I think it's crap that Brandon is trying to do the same.
I have come to the realization that we now have a coach that is not going to bend over backwards for players that think they are special. All of these players have work to do to get better and some players have put in more work than others. Marshall has a lot of work to do to catch up with the guys that have been in camp for the past couple of weeks. If where he is at is playing on scout teams, then that is where he is at. If Marshall and our coach dont have a problem with it, I don't see why the fans think they should. Maybe it will work, maybe it wont...but babying the star players hasn't worked in the past 10 years, perhaps the change will be good for them.
Personally I could care less what the players think about it. For the past few years the players have been coddled. The reason I support McDaniels even through his mistakes is because he is doing things his way regardless of what some primadonna players expect.
As I have stated multiple times, I'm hoping to see this be a much more fundamentally sound team, because of how McDaniels and his staff have run training camp -- from the very precise tackling drills, to the ball stripping drills, to the focus on not making any mistakes, physical or mental.
I was also a supporter of Jay initially. I wanted him to stay and I wanted things to get worked out. Unfortunately I think Jay handled everything poorly and I think it's crap that he forced his way out of town...and I think it's crap that Brandon is trying to do the same.
I have never said Jay handled it well, or didn't do anything wrong. He acted very immatured, but I also don't think Bowlen was just talking about McDaniels draft when he said, McDaniels has made some rookie mistakes. Based on what we know, the Broncos front office, handled the Cutler thing poorly ----- before Jay stopped taking phone calls, so everyone can dispense with using that as the end all, be all.
Between their non-responses about whether they were trying to trade Cutler or intended him to be the QB here, then finally a canned response from the PR department, which a day later, McDaniels repeats verbatim, there was no indication from McDaniels that he was working to resolve the situation in any way other than, "every person on the team can be traded if it helps the team." Thats one of those things that is a given, everyone knows it, but when you have a tense situation, where the player the owner has just called the future of the franchise is part of a trade to bring in a one year wonder, QB, the head coach should keep his mouth shut and not 'verbalize' the well known fact that he can trade everyone.
From where I sit, we don't know what really happened -- we don't know what was really said in the face-to-face meetings, but I saw mistakes and bone head moves made by both McDaniels and Cutler.
Marshall has a lot of work to do to catch up with the guys that have been in camp for the past couple of weeks. If where he is at is playing on scout teams, then that is where he is at. If Marshall and our coach dont have a problem with it, I don't see why the fans think they should. Maybe it will work, maybe it wont...but babying the star players hasn't worked in the past 10 years, perhaps the change will be good for them.
Using that same logic, if McDaniels doesn't have a problem with Marshall being behind on learning the playbook, why are some fans using it as 'proof' that he wants out of Denver, chose not to study, is lazy, etc.?
We can't have it both ways.
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 10:33 AM
As I have stated multiple times, I'm hoping to see this be a much more fundamentally sound team, because of how McDaniels and his staff have run training camp -- from the very precise tackling drills, to the ball stripping drills, to the focus on not making any mistakes, physical or mental.
I have never said Jay handled it well, or didn't do anything wrong. He acted very immatured, but I also don't think Bowlen was just talking about McDaniels draft when he said, McDaniels has made some rookie mistakes. Based on what we know, the Broncos front office, handled the Cutler thing poorly ----- before Jay stopped taking phone calls, so everyone can dispense with using that as the end all, be all.
Between their non-responses about whether they were trying to trade Cutler or intended him to be the QB here, then finally a canned response from the PR department, which a day later, McDaniels repeats verbatim, there was no indication from McDaniels that he was working to resolve the situation in any way other than, "every person on the team can be traded if it helps the team." Thats one of those things that is a given, everyone knows it, but when you have a tense situation, where the player the owner has just called the future of the franchise is part of a trade to bring in a one year wonder, QB, the head coach should keep his mouth shut and not 'verbalize' the well known fact that he can trade everyone.
From where I sit, we don't know what really happened -- we don't know what was really said in the face-to-face meetings, but I saw mistakes and bone head moves made by both McDaniels and Cutler.
Using that same logic, if McDaniels doesn't have a problem with Marshall being behind on learning the playbook, why are some fans using it as 'proof' that he wants out of Denver, chose not to study, is lazy, etc.?
We can't have it both ways.
Sorry Tned, I know I quoted and responded to your post, but my rant was more directed at all fans that are anti-McDaniels for each and every little thing that happens in camp. It is getting tiresome.
Anyways, I dont necessarily think Marshall not knowing the playbook is his fault. He can't learn it if he isnt there to learn it....it doesn't constitute proof (to me anyways) that he wants out...what more proof do we need other than him actually saying he wants out by requesting a trade multiple times?
Is he lazy, etc? I don't know. It would seem he didn't work as hard as he could have coming off the hip surgury. I mean, I think he pulled his hammy at his first practice and he admitted that he has a long way to go to be as strong/fast as the other top receivers in the league (from Fitz's get-together). Also, I know he had a lot of personal stuff going on, but I still think he could have been at camp all this time instead of in Florida before his trial. I don't know all the details, so I wont hold it against him but I just get the feeling Marshall thinks he deserves the time off and deserves to come back into camp as the #1 guy. It is just the mentality he has playing as a star under Shanny. I see the same type of mentality from Jay in Chicago.
Regardless of WHY he doesn't know the playbook, the fact remains that he doesn't know the playbook...so I'm not sure why fans think he should already be running with the first team nor am I sure why the media is hyping over the fact that he may not play this weekend. The guy doesn't know the plays, so how can anyone expect him to play? The scout team stuff, like I said, is debatable...it is just the way the team does things now. No player is above certain duties. But Marshall will learn the playbook and he will be starting against Cincy...with that said, I just don't see what all the controversy is about. I wish it all had just been kept in house.
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 10:42 AM
After practice Thursday, Marshall spent more than 30 minutes talking with special teams coordinator Mike Priefer at midfield while former Broncos great Rod Smith spent the same amount of time tutoring second-year wideout Eddie Royal about 60 yards away.
These are the types of things that I think the fans have a problem with. Marshall is behind...why is he not working after practice to catch up? Royal is not behind, yet he is still putting in the extra effort to be a better player. It is either Marshall just doesn't care anymore or he already thinks he is good enough that he doesn't need to work to get better. I am more than likely reading to much into it, but it just comes off as shady.
Actually, from what I understand, a lot of Marshall's issues are related to his being angry with the organization in general over his hip injury, and being misdiagnosed by the medical staff.
Again, we don't really know what either he or McDaniels are thinking or saying to each other, so we really are flying blind here and guessing.
And that was whose medical staff again? SHANNY'S...not McDaniels. In a lot of ways, McDaniels is dealing with a disgruntled player whose main issues weren't caused by McDaniels. It has since come out that Tuten did not agree with the way his medical staff was utilized.
So Mtn_Man...time to put the PERSONAL feelings on McDaniels where they really belong here...Shanny caused the initial problem, not McDaniels.
MOtorboat
08-21-2009, 11:04 AM
And that was whose medical staff again? SHANNY'S...not McDaniels. In a lot of ways, McDaniels is dealing with a disgruntled player whose main issues weren't caused by McDaniels. It has since come out that Tuten did not agree with the way his medical staff was utilized.
So Mtn_Man...time to put the PERSONAL feelings on McDaniels where they really belong here...Shanny caused the initial problem, not McDaniels.
It's my understanding that the medical staff really hasn't changed with the regime change. I could be wrong about that.
It's my understanding that the medical staff really hasn't changed with the regime change. I could be wrong about that.
The medical staff has not changed. Their way of going about things has. Tuten had an article out a few weeks ago that stated he wasn't allowed to do some of the things he wanted to do because Shanny wouldn't allow. He has since been allowed to do more of the things he thought should be happening now and hopefully in the long run it will pay off with less injuries.
TXBRONC
08-21-2009, 11:37 AM
The medical staff has not changed. Their way of going about things has. Tuten had an article out a few weeks ago that stated he wasn't allowed to do some of the things he wanted to do because Shanny wouldn't allow. He has since been allowed to do more of the things he thought should be happening now and hopefully in the long run it will pay off with less injuries.
Tuten is not a part of the medical staff he is part of coaching staff. That being said the medical staff consistent team doctors. No head coach can override physician allows a non professional to influence his decisions he could licence, be sued, and thrown in jail. Let me reiterate coaches in the NFL can't override a medical diagnosis.
Lonestar
08-21-2009, 11:41 AM
FWIW not sure marshalls issue was with tuten but with the doctors that said nothing was wrong or that he COULD play through it.
I'm stoked to see tuten being able to get the players stretching before hard work.
Only an idiot would cut back in that area at JHS and beyond as the higher you get the more intense the body and workouts are.
These are the types of things that I think the fans have a problem with. Marshall is behind...why is he not working after practice to catch up? Royal is not behind, yet he is still putting in the extra effort to be a better player. It is either Marshall just doesn't care anymore or he already thinks he is good enough that he doesn't need to work to get better. I am more than likely reading to much into it, but it just comes off as shady.
I think how it "comes off" winds up being slanted based on each of our preconceptions on the idea. You have a problem with Marshall, as you clearly indicated in your 'back handed' support of him -- such as the comments about asking for the trades, not working out after his hip surgery, etc.
So, it makes sense that a player spending 30 minutes on the field talking to a coach would be shady.
I on the other hand, read tweets that were talking about how Marhsall spent 30 minutes on the field talking to ST coach, and Royal spent 30 minutes talking to Smith, and while reading tweets from reporters about these two, I ALSO read tweets from two players that were talking about their evening plans, while Marshall was on the field talking to a coach.
So, I guess he could have rushed to the locker room, took a shower, and tweeted about going to a concernt or watching a movie, but instead he spent 30 minutes on the field talking to a coach.
Now, is he buddies with this coach (seems unlikely, as Priefer was just hired this year, and as pointed out, Marshall didn't spend much time with the team this offseason)? Were they were talking about movies or music or the health care bill or some other non-football related subject? I have no idea, but considering practice had just broken, and he has been working on special teams, I 'choose' to first assume that a player and a coach who spend 30 minutes immediately after a practice are talking football.
You chose to assume that he isn't working on his game, but that Royal talking to Smith is working on his game (they might have been talking football, and I assume they were, but Royal could have been asking advice on where to buy a house --- see the problems with assuming?).
I just think we are taking these tiny little clues and depending on who is posting, those clues are wrapped with 90% pure speculation to tell a story that is in line with our personal biases about a player or coach.
FWIW not sure marshalls issue was with tuten but with the doctors that said nothing was wrong or that he COULD play through it.
I'm stoked to see tuten being able to get the players stretching before hard work.
Only an idiot would cut back in that area at JHS and beyond as the higher you get the more intense the body and workouts are.
Right or wrong, he is complaining about something very similar to what Al Wilson sued the Broncos over.
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 12:15 PM
Tuten is not a part of the medical staff he is part of coaching staff. That being said the medical staff consistent team doctors. No head coach can override physician allows a non professional to influence his decisions he could licence, be sued, and thrown in jail. Let me reiterate coaches in the NFL can't override a medical diagnosis.
Didnt Shanny do that with Al's neck, though?
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 12:24 PM
I think how it "comes off" winds up being slanted based on each of our preconceptions on the idea. You have a problem with Marshall, as you clearly indicated in your 'back handed' support of him -- such as the comments about asking for the trades, not working out after his hip surgery, etc.
So, it makes sense that a player spending 30 minutes on the field talking to a coach would be shady.
I on the other hand, read tweets that were talking about how Marhsall spent 30 minutes on the field talking to ST coach, and Royal spent 30 minutes talking to Smith, and while reading tweets from reporters about these two, I ALSO read tweets from two players that were talking about their evening plans, while Marshall was on the field talking to a coach.
So, I guess he could have rushed to the locker room, took a shower, and tweeted about going to a concernt or watching a movie, but instead he spent 30 minutes on the field talking to a coach.
Now, is he buddies with this coach (seems unlikely, as Priefer was just hired this year, and as pointed out, Marshall didn't spend much time with the team this offseason)? Were they were talking about movies or music or the health care bill or some other non-football related subject? I have no idea, but considering practice had just broken, and he has been working on special teams, I 'choose' to first assume that a player and a coach who spend 30 minutes immediately after a practice are talking football.
You chose to assume that he isn't working on his game, but that Royal talking to Smith is working on his game (they might have been talking football, and I assume they were, but Royal could have been asking advice on where to buy a house --- see the problems with assuming?).
I just think we are taking these tiny little clues and depending on who is posting, those clues are wrapped with 90% pure speculation to tell a story that is in line with our personal biases about a player or coach.
Very true and the media is putting it's own spin on these situationa based on blind bias as well.
I did read in another article that Royal was working on his routes with Rod. And just from my own point of view, if I were Marshall I would be working on the offense since that is where he is behind. He could have been talking to Pfeifer about ST, but lets be realistic here...Marshall will not be playing special teams even if he is practicing with them now.
I don't necessarily have a BIAS against Marshall, I do think he has a legit beef with the Broncos...I just think he could be handling it a lot better considering IMO he has brought a lot of it onto himself. Guys like Boldin and Roddy are/were unhappy with their contracts but you didn't see the kind of attention that guys like Brandon and 85 got/are getting. I just think he is creating a bigger distraction than needs to be created in the way be addresses this stuff publicly to the media. I bet no one here even knew Roddy White held out for a contract this year until it was mentioned in an article about Brandon. Honestly I feel it just makes the Broncos and himself look bad the way this is going.
Lonestar
08-21-2009, 12:28 PM
Right or wrong, he is complaining about something very similar to what Al Wilson sued the Broncos over.
Yes that is correct but I was just trying to say the while they talk to each the S and C area really is not the medical doctors that said he could gut it out and play through it. For that matter no one knows what was said for sure and BM being the competitor he is said he wanted to play.
Also had this been such a big deal he would not have played in the Pro Bowl. But would gotten the FIX right after the season instead.
In fact nothing was said until he was hinting about a new contract. Or IF there was something said I don not remember hearing about it.
Very true and the media is putting it's own spin on these situationa based on blind bias as well.
I did read in another article that Royal was working on his routes with Rod. And just from my own point of view, if I were Marshall I would be working on the offense since that is where he is behind. He could have been talking to Pfeifer about ST, but lets be realistic here...Marshall will not be playing special teams even if he is practicing with them now.
The tweets from reporters said that Royal was talking to Smith. However, we don't even know if the discussion with the 'coach' was voluntary. Marshall might not have had the option to go over and talk to Smith.
Priefer is a special teams coach, but he is also a former naval academy student, so maybe he was talking to Marshall about discipline and work ethic. Maybe as a guy that has been coaching in the college and pros for a while now, he was talking to him about how to catch up on the playbook.
My point is -- who knows? However, to assume that the guy talking to a former Broncos player after practice ended is working on his game, but the player talking to a current Broncos coach is not working on his game... Well, I just don't know how you can reach that conclusion.
I don't necessarily have a BIAS against Marshall, I do think he has a legit beef with the Broncos...I just think he could be handling it a lot better considering IMO he has brought a lot of it onto himself. Guys like Boldin and Roddy are/were unhappy with their contracts but you didn't see the kind of attention that guys like Brandon and 85 got/are getting. I just think he is creating a bigger distraction than needs to be created in the way be addresses this stuff publicly to the media. I bet no one here even knew Roddy White held out for a contract this year until it was mentioned in an article about Brandon. Honestly I feel it just makes the Broncos and himself look bad the way this is going.
He's handling it better than Lelie, better than Javon Walker (in GB).
You bring up Roddy White handling it better? :confused:
Brandon Marshall came to camp and honored his contract. Roddy White held out until his team caved and gave him a new contract. White's holdout didn't get as much attention as a couple stories that sources say that Marshall's agent asked for a new contract. That Marshall requested a trade, but showed up to camp, didn't hold out.
Do you really think Roddy's holdout wasn't big news in Atlanta?
Moreno held out and he is the soon to be annointed savior of the franchise. Marshall shows up, passes the conditioning test (which Champ couldn't do), and he is decried by press and fans for being upset about being told that there was nothing wrong with him, when in fact he had a hip problem that needed surgery -- upset that he hasn't been given an extension, but he is in camp, working with the team.
broncofaninfla
08-21-2009, 12:45 PM
I'd like to see Marshall get some reps once his earns the chance to play but if he doesn't play we should a better look at Jackson and Gaffney. One thing to watch with Jackson is his reputation for dropping passes, especially TD passes. I hope Gaffney is a better player than he was in NE as well.
nbenallo33
08-21-2009, 12:47 PM
i think Gaffney is gonna suprise us this year
I'd like to see Marshall get some reps once his earns the chance to play but if he doesn't play we should a better look at Jackson and Gaffney. One thing to watch with Jackson is his reputation for dropping passes, especially TD passes. I hope Gaffney is a better player than he was in NE as well.
The 'talk' at the time we signed Gaffney was that NE was pissed with McDaniels for poaching him. At the time, I figured he was just bringing in his 'boys', but so far all of the reports I have seen from camp have been very positive about Gaffney.
Now, what I don't know is whether he looks good, because he is the only person on the field that isn't both trying to learn the plays and execute, or if it is simply that he is playing good. I hope it's the latter.
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 01:00 PM
The tweets from reporters said that Royal was talking to Smith. However, we don't even know if the discussion with the 'coach' was voluntary. Marshall might not have had the option to go over and talk to Smith.
Priefer is a special teams coach, but he is also a former naval academy student, so maybe he was talking to Marshall about discipline and work ethic. Maybe as a guy that has been coaching in the college and pros for a while now, he was talking to him about how to catch up on the playbook.
My point is -- who knows? However, to assume that the guy talking to a former Broncos player after practice ended is working on his game, but the player talking to a current Broncos coach is not working on his game... Well, I just don't know how you can reach that conclusion.
Hey I hope you are right, but I wouldn't count on it.
He's handling it better than Lelie, better than Javon Walker (in GB).
Well I would hope so. It doesn't mean he couldnt be handling it better than he is.
You bring up Roddy White handling it better? :confused:
Brandon Marshall came to camp and honored his contract. Roddy White held out until his team caved and gave him a new contract. White's holdout didn't get as much attention as a couple stories that sources say that Marshall's agent asked for a new contract. That Marshall requested a trade, but showed up to camp, didn't hold out.
Do you really think Roddy's holdout wasn't big news in Atlanta?
Wrong. Marshall held out, too until he was going to start being FINED for missing camp. He simply could not afford to cough up the dough, so he showed up. It had nothing to do with his commitment to the team and everything to do with (again) his bank account.
White's holdout may have received attention in Atlanta, but Marshall's holdout is receiving attention nationally. Why? Because Marshall has brought bad press upon himself with his off-the-field troubles. National media latches on to DRAMA stories and Marshall's is full of drama.
Not only that, but Marshall would have his new contract anyways without the non-football related stuff (IMO), so I cant find it in me to feel bad for him.
Moreno held out and he is the soon to be annointed savior of the franchise. Marshall shows up, passes the conditioning test (which Champ couldn't do), and he is decried by press and fans for being upset about being told that there was nothing wrong with him, when in fact he had a hip problem that needed surgery -- upset that he hasn't been given an extension, but he is in camp, working with the team.
Moreno's holdout is not related. As a rookie he almost has to wait until the guys around him are signed so his agent can have a baseline to start negotiations. It is not even close to a player already under contract holding out.
Like I said, I think Marshall does have beef with the Broncos, but it is something that happened LAST YEAR and there is no reason for him to go public with it. You have guys like Jamie Dukes and several fans that place the blame squarely on McDaniels and he has nothing to do with any of it. As I have said countless times, it makes him and the organization look bad which is what I have the biggest problem with.
broncofaninfla
08-21-2009, 01:06 PM
I was very high on Jackson coming out of college but witnessed enough at NE to lable him a bust. He is the type of receiver that will break your heart, drops critical passes. The kid can get seperation and can get open, just can't catch. I wasn't impressed with Gaffney at NE, not the greatest hands either, doesn't get great seperation and forget him catching anything in traffic in a game. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to eat crow now that these guys play for Denver just not optimistic that will happen. I am not convinced either is a reliable receiving option for Denver.
TXBRONC
08-21-2009, 01:40 PM
Didnt Shanny do that with Al's neck, though?
How so? Shanahan is not an MD so how is he going make a medical diagnosis?
Hey I hope you are right, but I wouldn't count on it.
Other than your personal bias (which is ok, because we all have it), what indication do you have that Marshall wasn't talking business with the Broncos coach?
Well I would hope so. It doesn't mean he couldnt be handling it better than he is.
You have tried to give the impression that Marshall's failure to attend optional team activities and the way he has handled this is sooo much worse than other receivers or players.
I am sure with a few minutes of googling I can give you a slew of players that have held out in training camp and even into the season, not just missed some optional team workouts during the summer.
Wrong. Marshall held out, too until he was going to start being FINED for missing camp. He simply could not afford to cough up the dough, so he showed up. It had nothing to do with his commitment to the team and everything to do with (again) his bank account.
Wrong again. Marshall did not hold out, he chose not to attend OPTIONAL team workouts during the offseason.
Roddy White held out, he blackmailed his team and said I won't show to training camp or play until I get a new contract.
Yet, you are claiming that White handled it better. I'm really struggling with this one.
You cant say, "well, Marshall would have held out, but for the fact he would be fined" that same thing can probably be said about dozens of players every season, which is why they fine players for not attending camp.
You had some good arguments up to here, but you really reached on claiming Marshall not holding out is worse than White holding out.
White's holdout may have received attention in Atlanta, but Marshall's holdout is receiving attention nationally. Why? Because Marshall has brought bad press upon himself with his off-the-field troubles. National media latches on to DRAMA stories and Marshall's is full of drama.
Wrong again. White's holdout receiver a ton of national coverage. The only reason that Marshall's non-holdout is even getting any attention is because it makes a great story, "new head coach trades away pro-bowl, franchise QB, and now appears ready to trade away pro-bowl WR". Yea, it's made some headlines, but so did White's holdout.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-whiteholdout0080109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
http://www.rotowire.com/Roddy-White-googid167116-spnfl.htm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jSHNKIHRRYo_zwYWmXAN1PPYgzHgD99QD4C80
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4378334
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-08-05/handicapping-wide-open-nfc-race
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/08/04/white.falcons.ap/
Do a google news search if you would like to find dozesn of more national coverage of White's holdout.
Not only that, but Marshall would have his new contract anyways without the non-football related stuff (IMO), so I cant find it in me to feel bad for him.
Agreed. However, that does nothing to support your assertion that Marshall has handled it so much worse than other receivers like White.
Moreno's holdout is not related. As a rookie he almost has to wait until the guys around him are signed so his agent can have a baseline to start negotiations. It is not even close to a player already under contract holding out.
Yes, except for the fact Marshall didn't hold out. Not a single practice.
Moreno on the other hand could have signed for a few bucks less and made it to camp. The guy directly behind him signed, so he could have easily signed by training camp, except he was trying to use the hold out leverage to get more money -- kind of like Roddy White and unlike Marshall.
Like I said, I think Marshall does have beef with the Broncos, but it is something that happened LAST YEAR and there is no reason for him to go public with it. You have guys like Jamie Dukes and several fans that place the blame squarely on McDaniels and he has nothing to do with any of it. As I have said countless times, it makes him and the organization look bad which is what I have the biggest problem with.
Then bash Dukes, rather than Marshall.
Lonestar
08-21-2009, 02:36 PM
FWIW even if marshall is in camp if he is not getting reps with the ONES why is he getting a pass by some for being there.. he did in deed hold out willingly decide not to attend IMPORTANT OTA's..
Where alot of this stuff was being taught..
he may have passed his physical but he almost immediately pulled a hamstring.. out for few more days of Valuable on the field practice.. while everyone else was advancing he was remaining stagnant at best..
he whined about the doctors from last year (I think we can all agree this was nothing but negotiating strategy)
he played in the pro bowl while hurt but did not think it important to have surgery instead..
he missed more time during his trial
none of this is Josh's fault.. I fail to see how folks are blaming Josh for this..
he is trying to get those players that want to be here ready to play in the first game of the year..
I might add that is his job and so far BM has not done his..
FWIW even if marshall is in camp if he is not getting reps with the ONES why is he getting a pass by some for being there.. he did in deed hold out willingly decide not to attend IMPORTANT OTA's..
Where alot of this stuff was being taught..
You might want to look up some of McDaniels quotes where when in talking about Moreno, he said that it didn't matter if he attended all the OTA's, most of the offense was installed during TC and missing time would put him way behind.
I know ripping on Marshall is popular sport these days, but we at least need to get the facts straight when doing it.
he may have passed his physical but he almost immediately pulled a hamstring.. out for few more days of Valuable on the field practice.. while everyone else was advancing he was remaining stagnant at best..
Would you like to share with us the stat that shows no other Bronco has ever pulled a hamstring in TC? I think that's going to be a toughy. Should Dawkins get ripped for breaking his hand and missing time on the field, or do we only rip on Marshall for getting injured?
he whined about the doctors from last year (I think we can all agree this was nothing but negotiating strategy)
Really. What do you have to back this up? I guess Al Wilson is also just a lieing scum bag for saying the Broncos doctors said he was able to play, when later he finds out he shouldn't have.
I think the "one" thing we can agree is that the people that are constantly ripping on Marshall don't care about facts.
he played in the pro bowl while hurt but did not think it important to have surgery instead..
When did he get the diagnoses that he needed hip surgery? I honestly don't know, but you seem to know that it was before the Pro-Bowl.
he missed more time during his trial
So, he should have skipped his trial? I don't really think that would be wise.
none of this is Josh's fault.. I fail to see how folks are blaming Josh for this..
I agree, the people blaming Josh for this are just as off base as people like you fabricating facts to rip on Marshall about. We really don't know what has happened. We don't know what conversations they might have had. We don't know why he is running only with the scout team.
I might add that is his job and so far BM has not done his..
Back that up with something other than your opinion. What part of his job has Marshall failed to do?
Lonestar
08-21-2009, 03:15 PM
You might want to look up some of McDaniels quotes where when in talking about Moreno, he said that it didn't matter if he attended all the OTA's, most of the offense was installed during TC and missing time would put him way behind.
I know ripping on Marshall is popular sport these days, but we at least need to get the facts straight when doing it.
Would you like to share with us the stat that shows no other Bronco has ever pulled a hamstring in TC? I think that's going to be a toughy. Should Dawkins get ripped for breaking his hand and missing time on the field, or do we only rip on Marshall for getting injured?
Really. What do you have to back this up? I guess Al Wilson is also just a lieing scum bag for saying the Broncos doctors said he was able to play, when later he finds out he shouldn't have.
I think the "one" thing we can agree is that the people that are constantly ripping on Marshall don't care about facts.
When did he get the diagnoses that he needed hip surgery? I honestly don't know, but you seem to know that it was before the Pro-Bowl.
So, he should have skipped his trial? I don't really think that would be wise.
I agree, the people blaming Josh for this are just as off base as people like you fabricating facts to rip on Marshall about. We really don't know what has happened. We don't know what conversations they might have had. We don't know why he is running only with the scout team.
Back that up with something other than your opinion. What part of his job has Marshall failed to do?
Since we really do not know about the date he was told he needed surgery I can't argue much about that but IF he felt so strongly about it and it was indeed problem he should have talked to someone before considering he was aware of the "broncos doctors missing Al's stuff". as far as injury stuff none of Al's or BM's stuff is indeed Josh or the current admins issues..
If mike did indeed tell tuten how to run his shop perhaps he was also telling the Dr's he wanted them on the field. I suspect we all remember that mike was under the gun the past couple of years.. I also suspect the AL being the competitor he was was pushing also to play.. and for that matter I suspect BM was to a degree also.. He had alot riding on his performance about 1.6 in bonuses for the up coming year..
I also believe that alot the play book was installed during OTA's and in this particular instance TC was getting them honed and ready for individual playbook of the week for the upcoming teams..
Kind of hard to run plays in OTA if they do not have a play book (I think we can all understand that one).. and another part of this was he was running with the ones prior to pulling the hammy IIRC..
so what are they installing and practicing these past two weeks?
Sounded like situational drills to me.. 3rd and gaol with 12seconds on the clock.. type of stuff. at least that was what I have been reading..
have others pulled hamstring in camp to the best of my knowledge none that went through the OTA and Broncos conditioning have.. but I could be wrong there..
Last but not least there is a difference in showing up for TC and showing up being prepared for it..
as for court of course he needed to go make an appearance but the underlying reason that missed camp was because of his OWN behavior..
I know that the above is not what some want to hear.. and I'm tired of trying to make folks see this kid while he has a ton of talent he just may not be worth signing to a huge long term contract.. the risk for deap cap space is on the moon and I'll bet Pat is mindful of that also..
The end..
Since we really do not know about the date he was told he needed surgery I can't argue much about that but IF he felt so strongly about it and it was indeed problem he should have talked to someone before considering he was aware of the "broncos doctors missing Al's stuff". as far as injury stuff none of Al's or BM's stuff is indeed Josh or the current admins issues..
If mike did indeed tell tuten how to run his shop perhaps he was also telling the Dr's he wanted them on the field. I suspect we all remember that mike was under the gun the past couple of years.. I also suspect the AL being the competitor he was was pushing also to play.. and for that matter I suspect BM was to a degree also.. He had alot riding on his performance about 1.6 in bonuses for the up coming year..
There has never been any allegation, until now, that Shanahan told the doctors what to do in terms of players. All Tuten said was he felt the non-contact and non-full speed drills contributed to the groin pulls and injuries.
IIRC, he related it to a person that runs once a week and gets sore, to a person that runs 5 or 7 days a week and does not.
I also believe that alot the play book was installed during OTA's and in this particular instance TC was getting them honed and ready for individual playbook of the week for the upcoming teams..
It's fine, you can believe it. You often accused Mikey of lieing, so maybe Josh lied about that as well.
Kind of hard to run plays in OTA if they do not have a play book (I think we can all understand that one).. and another part of this was he was running with the ones prior to pulling the hammy IIRC..
Agreed, McDaniels is a liar like Mikey.
so what are they installing and practicing these past two weeks?
Good question, we just concluded that McDaniels lied and they aren't installing the offense. Maybe they're just out there playing grab ass -- getting cheap thrills.
Sounded like situational drills to me.. 3rd and gaol with 12seconds on the clock.. type of stuff. at least that was what I have been reading..
Yep, that surely is part of it, possibly all of it, if we continue to assume McDaniels has lied through his teeth about installing the offense during TC.
have others pulled hamstring in camp to the best of my knowledge none that went through the OTA and Broncos conditioning have.. but I could be wrong there..
It's a pretty bold statement, so maybe some research would be in order.
Last but not least there is a difference in showing up for TC and showing up being prepared for it..
And in what way was he not prepared? Specifically.
as for court of course he needed to go make an appearance but the underlying reason that missed camp was because of his OWN behavior..
No disagreement there, but when you just try and pile on by making up a bunch of stuff and then throwing that he left because of a trial, do you expect to not be called on it?
I know that the above is not what some want to hear.. and I'm tired of trying to make folks see this kid while he has a ton of talent he just may not be worth signing to a huge long term contract.. the risk for deap cap space is on the moon and I'll bet Pat is mindful of that also..
I know that you see it through your biased view, which is ok, because we all have our biases, but then you need to not be surprised when not everyone agrees with you.
When you conclude things that are in complete opposition to what McDaniels has said, and make other statements that are at best 'guesses', you are just pandering to those lining up to lynch Marshall.
The end..
I doubt it, no player controversy dies this easily on a message board. ;)
Lonestar
08-21-2009, 03:45 PM
for what it is worth this conversation with Larsen talks about playbooks in mini camps and OTA's
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=334&storyID=9249
I think perhaps you have misunderstood, what Josh was trying to say opposed to him "lying"
and you can have the last word then..
broncohead
08-21-2009, 06:03 PM
regardless McD should get the most talented player involved in the offense. If he can't he really is in the wrong buisiness.
Lonestar
08-21-2009, 06:08 PM
regardless McD should get the most talented player involved in the offense. If he can't he really is in the wrong business.
I suspect he going to put the most ready folks on the field first..
If BM is not ready to go he should not be on the field until he is..
LRtagger
08-21-2009, 07:13 PM
Other than your personal bias (which is ok, because we all have it), what indication do you have that Marshall wasn't talking business with the Broncos coach?
You have tried to give the impression that Marshall's failure to attend optional team activities and the way he has handled this is sooo much worse than other receivers or players.
I am sure with a few minutes of googling I can give you a slew of players that have held out in training camp and even into the season, not just missed some optional team workouts during the summer.
Wrong again. Marshall did not hold out, he chose not to attend OPTIONAL team workouts during the offseason.
Roddy White held out, he blackmailed his team and said I won't show to training camp or play until I get a new contract.
Yet, you are claiming that White handled it better. I'm really struggling with this one.
You cant say, "well, Marshall would have held out, but for the fact he would be fined" that same thing can probably be said about dozens of players every season, which is why they fine players for not attending camp.
You had some good arguments up to here, but you really reached on claiming Marshall not holding out is worse than White holding out.
Wrong again. White's holdout receiver a ton of national coverage. The only reason that Marshall's non-holdout is even getting any attention is because it makes a great story, "new head coach trades away pro-bowl, franchise QB, and now appears ready to trade away pro-bowl WR". Yea, it's made some headlines, but so did White's holdout.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-whiteholdout0080109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
http://www.rotowire.com/Roddy-White-googid167116-spnfl.htm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jSHNKIHRRYo_zwYWmXAN1PPYgzHgD99QD4C80
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4378334
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-08-05/handicapping-wide-open-nfc-race
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/08/04/white.falcons.ap/
Do a google news search if you would like to find dozesn of more national coverage of White's holdout.
Agreed. However, that does nothing to support your assertion that Marshall has handled it so much worse than other receivers like White.
Yes, except for the fact Marshall didn't hold out. Not a single practice.
Moreno on the other hand could have signed for a few bucks less and made it to camp. The guy directly behind him signed, so he could have easily signed by training camp, except he was trying to use the hold out leverage to get more money -- kind of like Roddy White and unlike Marshall.
Then bash Dukes, rather than Marshall.
Perhaps I spoke too soon on Roddy's exposure, but I based that on the fact that I personally had not heard much at all about it and I keep up with the NFL pretty regularly. Regardless, it doesn't really matter because Marshall is getting much more bad press than Roddy and that is an undeniable fact.
Even still, my problem is not with holding out. Players in pro sports hold out and I am fine with it. It is part of the process. Hell Casey held out and I applauded him for the road he took in getting his new contract. The part I DO have a problem with and what I feel Marshall is doing poorly is going public with the entire ordeal instead of resolving it in house. Like it or not, it is my opinion that Marshall is taking the low road because he just does not want to be a Bronco unless he gets his payday NOW. It is also my opinion that he is not deserving of a contract extension just yet because there are more risks involved with him than say a Roddy White.
Yea he missed VOLUNTARY OTAs, but you and I and everyone else know that while OTAs are labelled voluntary, it is something all players are expected to attend. I believe they have to call it voluntary for NFLPA reasons, but if I recall Marshall and Casey were the only healthy players that missed and Casey came back after he got his contract. So, that IMO was a holdout even though, by your definition it was not.
As I said before. He is mad at the Broncos, that's fine...but keep it within the organization. There is no need to bring it public that you are pissed off and want to be traded. Don't go to a private meeting with the head execs and go straight home to your twitter account telling the world you requested a trade and were going to be traded.
It is a busch move by Marshall and it really is his only power play since he has absolutely no other leverage.
By the way I do hate Jamie Dukes, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be unhappy with Marshall. Are there other players that have handled a situation like this worse? Sure, but it isn't an excuse for Brandon.
Either way I dont think this debate is going anywhere. I don't think Marshall is handling the situation well and you do. Some people don't think Josh is handling the team well, some do. Guess we will have to wait and see.
I don't think Marshall is handling the situation well and you do. Some people don't think Josh is handling the team well, some do. Guess we will have to wait and see.
No, I didn't say I think he is handling it 'well', I simply disagreed with your assertion he is handling it so much worse than others. He has handled it better than many, many players in his situation over the years, but not as well as others.
I know different people have different opinions of Dave Krieger, so we can just dispense with "well, it's Dave Krieger saying it", since this is clearly just his opinion, like all of us on here have different opinions.
Anyway, this is a question and answer that Dave Krieger of the Denver Post just got when being interviewed on NFL Networks Total Access:
Can this rift (between Denver and Marshall) be mended?
It's hard to say right now. It's a game of chicken going on between the two sides. McDaniels move in the game of chicken is to put Marshall on the scout team and Marshalls reply is to say, "he's right, I'm not ready, I'm not ready, I might never be ready". There is a game of phycological warfare going back and forth between them. The Broncos can allow another player to force them to trade him, as Jay Cutler did, or others will do the same.
broncohead
08-21-2009, 07:44 PM
I suspect he going to put the most ready folks on the field first..
If BM is not ready to go he should not be on the field until he is..
I'm not going to pretend to know how much Marshall knows about the playbook but if Moreno was good to go the last game (after missing some MANDATORY camp) then Marshall should be able to see a little playing time at WR. I'm sure this has a lot to do with ego then actually making the team better for BOTH sides.
Denver Post is reporting:
@denverbroncos Marshall and Dawkins did not make the trip. Short story up soon.
MOtorboat
08-21-2009, 09:48 PM
I'm not going to pretend to know how much Marshall knows about the playbook but if Moreno was good to go the last game (after missing some MANDATORY camp) then Marshall should be able to see a little playing time at WR. I'm sure this has a lot to do with ego then actually making the team better for BOTH sides.
Guess not...
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