Kiszla: It's time to thank Josh McDaniels for Broncos' 2010 draft

[rationalfan]

This should cause some debate:

"No disrespect to Mike Shanahan or John Elway, the past and present architects of Broncos football, but for my money, the best Denver draft class of the past decade was put together in 2010 by McDaniels."

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_22463534/mark-kiszla-its-time-thank-josh-mcdaniels-broncos

[rjent]

Interesting article. He has some very valid points.

I never hated McD, and I do think someday with more experience he will be a great HC, but he did screw us over in many ways, and for that he deserves the flak he gets.

JMHO

[Northman]

Like any coach he was hit or miss. But this was the best part of the article and the crutch to why he was let go.


There's really no argument: Great teams built to last in the NFL are built in the draft. McDaniels never figured out how to treat players like adults. He forced a proud organization to take an
unnecessary hit to its reputation with a video scandal that hastened his departure. If nothing else, the Broncos are far more stable and professional with John Fox as coach.







Bottom line for me is there was far more negative aspects to both his coaching, his persona, and some of his other less than stellar draft picks that make McD a bum no matter how much fairy dust Kizla will try to sprinkle on it.

[Thnikkaman]

You linked a Kiszla article, take a lap.

[TXBRONC]

Sure McDaniels drafted these players and for that you have to give him credit. However, their development is coming a different head coach that is what will come to mind first and foremost.

[BeefStew25]

Kizla tries too hard.

[MileHighCrew]

He kind of brushed over the Tebow pick and didn't mention all the picks he gave up for him in that draft. And no mention of he wonderful 09 draft.... but ya he had some points.......

[BroncoJoe]

Those given up picks were acquired specifically to grab Tebow. They weren't ours to begin with.

Not defending, just pointing out we didn't "give up picks".

[Dzone]

Alphonso Smith was a great deal... thanks Mcdaniels

[BeefStew25]

Richard Quinn.

Speaking of which, here is a oldie but goodie:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pPCEXq4mgk

[Dzone]

bwaahahahahaaaa.. that Dick Quinn video is hysterical...Oh ya, forgot about Dick Quinn...what a waste..

[MileHighCrew]

Those given up picks were acquired specifically to grab Tebow. They weren't ours to begin with.

Not defending, just pointing out we didn't "give up picks".

I understand why he got the picks, and how he got the picks. But when he gave up all those picks they were Denver's and I would be interest to see who the Ravens drafted with them.... Guess I could look but I'm lazy

[MileHighCrew]

Alphonso Smith was a great deal... thanks Mcdaniels

first round pick for him.....

[cmc0605]

I don't know of anyone who claims McDaniels did absolutely nothing good, so this article seems pointless. Obviously he had some good draft picks...DT, some of the offensive line picks, etc. Any fan who can pull up a mock draft online could do decently with the draft picks he had available too. But the wasted picks toward Alphonso Smith, Tebow, and others were misguided too. But in the end, he was never judged on his drafts. He was judged on breaking apart a team with a pro bowl QB and pro bowl wide receiver (and no one could have predicted that these moves would eventually lead to Manning...there's no thank you to be had). And if he remained, we'd also be without Champ Bailey

[BroncoWave]

I don't know of anyone who claims McDaniels did absolutely nothing good, so this article seems pointless. Obviously he had some good draft picks...DT, some of the offensive line picks, etc. Any fan who can pull up a mock draft online could do decently with the draft picks he had available too. But the wasted picks toward Alphonso Smith, Tebow, and others were misguided too. But in the end, he was never judged on his drafts. He was judged on breaking apart a team with a pro bowl QB and pro bowl wide receiver (and no one could have predicted that these moves would eventually lead to Manning...there's no thank you to be had). If he wasn't here, we'd also be without Champ Bailey

You're kidding right? Do you read this board?

[TXBRONC]

Those given up picks were acquired specifically to grab Tebow. They weren't ours to begin with.

Not defending, just pointing out we didn't "give up picks".

True he did aquired those for that specific purpose nevertheless those picks were in Denver possession so that constitutes giving them up.

[rationalfan]

True he didn't aquired those for that specific purpose nevertheless those picks were in Denver possession so constitutes giving them up.

i understand the debate about those picks; but i still think trading those picks (No. 43, No. 70 and No. 114, in the 2010 draft, i believe) is worth a playoff appearance, which tebow led the team to. granted, he didn't do it all himself, but he had a HUGE part in a lot of those victories that year.

[wayninja]

Funny how the article fails to mention all the talent he shoved out the door... But yeah, great draft! I guess...

[wayninja]

he didn't do it all himself, but he had a HUGE part in a lot of those victories that year.

I won't argue with you, but I'm counting the seconds until someone else does.

[Northman]

I understand why he got the picks, and how he got the picks. But when he gave up all those picks they were Denver's and I would be interest to see who the Ravens drafted with them.... Guess I could look but I'm lazy

Yea, never understood that kind of philosophy. You go through the trouble to "gain" picks only to turn around and "lose" them by selecting another player. So technically yea, they were Denver's. We could of used those picks on ANYONE in that draft yet used 3 to grab Tebow who is no longer here and not even a starting QB. That is what i call, a waste.

[Northman]

I don't know of anyone who claims McDaniels did absolutely nothing good, so this article seems pointless. Obviously he had some good draft picks...DT, some of the offensive line picks, etc. Any fan who can pull up a mock draft online could do decently with the draft picks he had available too. But the wasted picks toward Alphonso Smith, Tebow, and others were misguided too. But in the end, he was never judged on his drafts. He was judged on breaking apart a team with a pro bowl QB and pro bowl wide receiver (and no one could have predicted that these moves would eventually lead to Manning...there's no thank you to be had). And if he remained, we'd also be without Champ Bailey

Its just a way for Kizla to stir up the pot. When you read that article you can see his bias and his snarky remarks about those who dislike McDaniels for what he did here. But as usual, he glossed over all the bad things McDaniels did to try and justify him a hero just because he drafted some players that another coach was able to actually use correctly.

[topscribe]

Its just a way for Kizla to stir up the pot. When you read that article you can see his bias and his snarky remarks about those who dislike McDaniels for what he did here. But as usual, he glossed over all the bad things McDaniels did to try and justify him a hero just because he drafted some players that another coach was able to actually use correctly.
Those were excellent selections, my friend.

Just about the only thing he did that didn't threaten the extinction of the franchise, but they were good ones . . .



But, of course, as you implied, Tebow was in the same draft class . . .
.

[Northman]

Those were excellent selections, my friend.

Just about the only thing he did that didn't threaten the extinction of the franchise, but they were good ones . . .
.

So the monkey threw some shit on the wall and got lucky. Awesome. Give him a cookie and send him on his way.

[Poet]

Like any coach he was hit or miss. But this was the best part of the article and the crutch to why he was let go.



Bottom line for me is there was far more negative aspects to both his coaching, his persona, and some of his other less than stellar draft picks that make McD a bum no matter how much fairy dust Kizla will try to sprinkle on it.

Yup. It's not like McD didn't have some strong points, but he really, really did a lot to **** shit up.

[spikerman]

Somewhere Lonestar is laughing his a** off.

[Thnikkaman]

Its just a way for Kizla to stir up the pot. When you read that article you can see his bias and his snarky remarks about those who dislike McDaniels for what he did here. But as usual, he glossed over all the bad things McDaniels did to try and justify him a hero just because he drafted some players that another coach was able to actually use correctly.

Kiszla is a shit writer. It's like the Denver post only had him employed so Denver sports fans have someone to hate. I don't know why anyone would want to read his articles.

[aberdien]

I refuse.

[TXBRONC]

i understand the debate about those picks; but i still think trading those picks (No. 43, No. 70 and No. 114, in the 2010 draft, i believe) is worth a playoff appearance, which tebow led the team to. granted, he didn't do it all himself, but he had a HUGE part in a lot of those victories that year.

That really is a matter personal preferance. Making the playoffs just one time from that trade seems difficult to justfy. But again to each his own.

[topscribe]

i understand the debate about those picks; but i still think trading those picks (No. 43, No. 70 and No. 114, in the 2010 draft, i believe) is worth a playoff appearance, which tebow led the team to. granted, he didn't do it all himself, but he had a HUGE part in a lot of those victories that year.
It all depends on how you look at it, I guess. It would seem more to me that
he had a huge part in the losses, and he had a huge part in nearly causing
losses in some of the wins . . .
.

[Simple Jaded]

I give a ya Thomas, though he was drafted too high, Decker is a good pick, but if Walton and Beadles are feathers in your cap you're pathetic.

Unless it's a thanks for getting fired, Doogie will play hell getting a thanks from me, **** that P.O.S.......

[MOtorboat]

Somewhere Lonestar is laughing his a** off.

He's actually bitching about Clady.

[Simple Jaded]

The Ravens chose Kindle, Hickson and Pitta with Doogie's draft picks. If you insist on giving him credit for the picks he kept in that draft then you have to at least acknowledge the possibility that he coulda done just as well with the picks he traded if he didn't thoroughly waste them on Tebow.......

[Simple Jaded]

He's actually bitching about Clady.

What's wrong with Clady? I mean other than he was drafted by Shanatan?.......

[MOtorboat]

What's wrong with Clady? I mean other than he was drafted by Shanatan?.......

You'd have to ask lonestar.

[NightTrainLayne]

What's wrong with Clady? I mean other than he was dafted by Shanatan?.......

Fixed it for you.

[Poet]

One thing that I will give McD, he knew to take Thomas over Dez Bryant. Bryant may have had the better season statistically, but he was inconsistent, and has been an issue. I think this season has solidified that pick and we all suspect that Dez isn't too far from another implosion.

[TXBRONC]

He's actually bitching about Clady.

Dumervile

[TXBRONC]

One thing that I will give McD, he knew to take Thomas over Dez Bryant. Bryant may have had the better season statistically, but he was inconsistent, and has been an issue. I think this season has solidified that pick and we all suspect that Dez isn't too far from another implosion.

I wouldn't say Bryant had better year. The only statistic that he beat Thomas in was touchdowns and that only by two.

[wc_ben]

He leaves out of that 06 draft with Hixon and Shef - also that McFails was trying to pull the deal from Champ before he got fired.. Josh destroyed far too much to ever be thanked

[TXBRONC]

He leaves out of that 06 draft with Hixon and Shef - also that McFails was trying to pull the deal from Champ before he got fired.. Josh destroyed far too much to ever be thanked

Ok but we can't deny their are few key players on this team that here via the two drafts he oversaw.

[Northman]

Josh destroyed far too much to ever be thanked

Yep.

As i said, every coach for Denver has been hit or miss with players. With guys like DT, he was hurt early on so we never really got to see what he could do until last year. The other guys didnt stand out right away and it took a couple of years to even see what they could do. But again, far more plunders than great things that McDoogie did in Denver. Why thank him for something that every coach does anyway? Its not like it was special. lmao

[MileHighCrew]

I don't think there is a coach in NFL history that you couldn't pick and choose 3-4 good things they did during their tenure as North said, but you would be hard pressed to find another coach that made the huge mistakes and destroyed a team the way he did too....

For anyone giving him that credit, ask yourself if you would have been comfortable with Josh making the pick when we had the #2 overall.

[Northman]

I don't think there is a coach in NFL history that you couldn't pick and choose 3-4 good things they did during their tenure as North said, but you would be hard pressed to find another coach that made the huge mistakes and destroyed a team the way he did too....

For anyone giving him that credit, ask yourself if you would have been comfortable with Josh making the pick when we had the #2 overall.


Hellz to the ****** yaz! McD was da Bomb Cuz!

Signed,
BTB

[TXBRONC]

I don't think there is a coach in NFL history that you couldn't pick and choose 3-4 good things they did during their tenure as North said, but you would be hard pressed to find another coach that made the huge mistakes and destroyed a team the way he did too....

For anyone giving him that credit, ask yourself if you would have been comfortable with Josh making the pick when we had the #2 overall.

No I wouldn't have been comfortable having McDaniels making that pick. The fact is he was the one drafted Thomas, Decker, and Beadles but that's where it ends. What he did is basically a footnote in the history books. John Ralston was responible for drafting many of players that made up '77 sqaud. Does he get mentioned very much when Denver's first ever playoffs is talked about? Rarely.

[rationalfan]

I don't think there is a coach in NFL history that you couldn't pick and choose 3-4 good things they did during their tenure as North said, but you would be hard pressed to find another coach that made the huge mistakes and destroyed a team the way he did too....

two part response:

1. comparably bad coaches: lane kiffin, rod rust in new england, richie pettibone in washington, jim zorn, dave campo in dallas, ray handley with the giants, etc., etc.

There have always been bad coaches. but McD coached our favorite team. we're going to exaggerate his awfulness.

2. McD "destroyed" the broncos: it's not like he took over a playoff team. they were 7-9 and 8-8 before he took over and led his own 8-8 campaign. sure, he was 4-12 the next year (though, to be fair, he didn't earn all those losses or victories, since he was fired mid-season). but if he left such a mess, how did the broncos make the playoffs the next season? he didn't exactly leave the roster bare.

i think so much of the perception about McD's "mistakes" is the idea that he broke up a core of fan favorite offensive players. but, they weren't stars (with the exception of marshall). so much of this perception is built around the belief that cutler, marshall, scheffler, hills, etc., would have developed into an elite unit. there's no proof of that. it's just opinion/hope.

yes, McD made some bad mistakes (the video cheating, the worst of them, in my opinion). yes, he deserved to fired when he did (maybe should have been sooner). but he isn't the worst coach ever. he might not even be the worst broncos coach ever (look at some of the records of broncos seasons in the 60s and 70s).

i'm not defending him, just trying to find a little balance.

[Northman]

There have always been bad coaches. but McD coached our favorite team. we're going to exaggerate his awfulness.

Nothing exaggerated RF. He was bad, from his attitude on down the line.


2. McD "destroyed" the broncos: it's not like he took over a playoff team. they were 7-9 and 8-8 before he took over and led his own 8-8 campaign. sure, he was 4-12 the next year (though, to be fair, he didn't earn all those losses or victories, since he was fired mid-season). but if he left such a mess, how did the broncos make the playoffs the next season? he didn't exactly leave the roster bare.

i think so much of the perception about McD's "mistakes" is the idea that he broke up a core of fan favorite offensive players. but, they weren't stars (with the exception of marshall). so much of this perception is built around the belief that cutler, marshall, scheffler, hills, etc., would have developed into an elite unit. there's no proof of that. it's just opinion/hope.



Did he take over a playoff team? Nope. But he did take over a team that was already rebuilding with a LOT of young talent and traded it away? The things that McD did with the team is unheard of considering how they were growing as a unit and the chemistry was already there it made no sense from the word go. There may not be proof that they would of become elite, but the signs were very promising when McD first came in. To ignore that is naive.

[Ravage!!!]

Thank McD??? :lol:

This is the ONLY team that I've seen that a number of fans tray SOOOOOOOO hard to hang onto (and defend) one fo the worst coaches this franchise has EVER had. Did we turn around and thank the likes of Phillips for "all he did" prior to Shanahan? What is it with Kizla and this? McDaniels was CRAP... period.

[BroncoJoe]

Stop being so rational, rat.

[Ravage!!!]

Those given up picks were acquired specifically to grab Tebow. They weren't ours to begin with.

Not defending, just pointing out we didn't "give up picks".

If you HAVE picks, and then you give them away.. you "give up picks." Those were picks, that by rule, could have been used to draft players.

If I give you 4 quarters, you have a dollar. If you choose to give that dollar away, then you are giving that money out of YOUR pocket...right? You had the dollar and chose to give the quarters away.

[TXBRONC]

two part response:

1. comparably bad coaches: lane kiffin, rod rust in new england, richie pettibone in washington, jim zorn, dave campo in dallas, ray handley with the giants, etc., etc.

There have always been bad coaches. but McD coached our favorite team. we're going to exaggerate his awfulness.

2. McD "destroyed" the broncos: it's not like he took over a playoff team. they were 7-9 and 8-8 before he took over and led his own 8-8 campaign. sure, he was 4-12 the next year (though, to be fair, he didn't earn all those losses or victories, since he was fired mid-season). but if he left such a mess, how did the broncos make the playoffs the next season? he didn't exactly leave the roster bare.

i think so much of the perception about McD's "mistakes" is the idea that he broke up a core of fan favorite offensive players. but, they weren't stars (with the exception of marshall). so much of this perception is built around the belief that cutler, marshall, scheffler, hills, etc., would have developed into an elite unit. there's no proof of that. it's just opinion/hope.

yes, McD made some bad mistakes (the video cheating, the worst of them, in my opinion). yes, he deserved to fired when he did (maybe should have been sooner). but he isn't the worst coach ever. he might not even be the worst broncos coach ever (look at some of the records of broncos seasons in the 60s and 70s).

i'm not defending him, just trying to find a little balance.

Come on the 8-8 record is misleading. The team started off 6-0 so that means Denver went 2-8 so it's much worse than how we arrived from the year before. Two four game losing streaks in that period of time. He actually coached 3/4 of the 2010. He was fired after right after we lost to the Chiefs at Arrowhead.

Cutler was by a better quarterback than what he brought in and the same Scheffler and Marshall. Exactly what tight ends did he bring in that could catch the ball? It's not just hope and opinion Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler were very product that is fact. Elway was asked if he would have traded away Cutler and said he would not have done it. Most of players McDaniel drafted on defense are gone. Only two remain and neither one of them is a starter.

You know that the annimosty towards McDaniels is much deeper than just bad personal decisions. The constant fighting with players and staff and how those thing kept getting aired publically. You brought up the '60s and '70s based on wins and losses. McDaniels is viewed the way he is because of what happened off the field as much as what happened on it.

[BroncoJoe]

If you HAVE picks, and then you give them away.. you "give up picks." Those were picks, that by rule, could have been used to draft players.

If I give you 4 quarters, you have a dollar. If you choose to give that dollar away, then you are giving that money out of YOUR pocket...right? You had the dollar and chose to give the quarters away.

A better analogy would be I have a dollar and you give me six quarters for that dollar. I give two away, and I have exactly what I had to begin with. It's arguable whether or not I gave anything away.

[turftoad]

I will never thank McDooosh for anything. Read my sig.

[WTE]

Thanks Josh!

[Dreadnought]

DT and Decker were good picks. Hooray. I still loathe that *******, and while I wouldn't want to wish anything especially awful on another human being I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to hoping he develops a very itchy chronic rash someplace awkward.

As a coach he was epically bad. Frank Kush bad. Les Steckel bad. They don't really come any worse.

[jhildebrand]

5 1st round picks. 5! This team should be set for a LONG time to come YET it isn't. There are still holes to be filled and depth issues! Josh deserves no thanks whatsoever.

For anyone willing to credit him the 6-0 start, that goes to Mike Nolan. People forget but that D was pitching second half shut outs along the lines of 'Remember the Titans!' IIRC there was a game or two where the opposing O only had 1 or 2 2nd half first downs. What happened to 6-0 after McD and Nolan got inot it at practice? :confused:

The front office couldn't stand McNoz, his staff couldn't, and quickly his players couldn't. All I would thank him for is being DUMB enough trying to cheat (again) and hastening his exit.

All that said, Josh McDaniels was an abject failure of epic proportions here in Denver. PERIOD.

[Ravage!!!]

A better analogy would be I have a dollar and you give me six quarters for that dollar. I give two away, and I have exactly what I had to begin with. It's arguable whether or not I gave anything away.

Although I don't think your analogy is better, you still gave away 50 cents. No matter how you try to twist it, you gave away money that you had in your pocket. We had picks that could have been used to draft players.

[Poet]

Although I don't think your analogy is better, you still gave away 50 cents. No matter how you try to twist it, you gave away money that you had in your pocket. We had picks that could have been used to draft players.

So are you saying that when you trade away picks it's always bad? I think it's more likely that you gave him a bunch of grimy and unidentified coin shaped objects that may have been coins or trash. I say this because draft picks are far from guaranteed.

[Ravage!!!]

So are you saying that when you trade away picks it's always bad? I think it's more likely that you gave him a bunch of grimy and unidentified coin shaped objects that may have been coins or trash. I say this because draft picks are far from guaranteed.

Hmmm.... no. I'm saying that you can't say we "didn't use any picks" on Tebow purely because we acquired extra picks prior to trading for him. He wasn't free. The 4 picks we used to get Tebow COULD have been used on other players. So we absolutely gave picks away.

[Poet]

I think you're really, really missing the point.

[Ravage!!!]

I think you're really, really missing the point.

No.. I'm really really not. We moved down and acquired picks.. from which we HAD those picks in our pocket to use. Now, we traded away the acquired picks to grab Tebow (4). Now you can say "we were using the casino's money, thus, not losing anything" all you want.

But that's not true, you HAD the picks to use. You can use them to pick 4 more players, but CHOSE to give them away for Tebow... or.. instead of using your chips on several hands of blackjack, you laid it all down on one spin of the roulette wheel.

You can say "but since you don't know what you would have gotten with the picks anyway" (or unidentified coin shaped objects) if you want, but those unidentified, coin shaped, objects still SPEND like any other coin. The pick for Tebow wasn't anything more "sure" than any other pick, and was more of a mystery bag grab than most.

So I don't think I'm missing the point, King, I just dont' think your analogy was very good.

[BroncoJoe]

Although I don't think your analogy is better, you still gave away 50 cents. No matter how you try to twist it, you gave away money that you had in your pocket. We had picks that could have been used to draft players.

OK, so instead of giving my two quarters away, I bought a soda. Better now?

I get your point, but like that show "Barter Kings", it's all about perceived value - TO THE TRADER. Clearly, McD thought those picks he specifically acquired were worth the drafting of Tebow. It's not like he got nothing for them. As it turned out Tebow wasn't worth those, but to him he was.

[jhildebrand]

In 2010 Denver originally had the #11 Pick from the Cutler trade to the Bears. They traded down from 11 to 13 with SF. Their "organic" pick was #14. That was squandered from the previous draft when McDaniels traded for Alfonso "Smurf" Smith. He traded the #14 pick (which Seattle used on Earl Thomas) for a guy he would not have on the roster a year later! A 2nd round pick for next year's 1st round pick is highway robbery!

They then traded the #13 pick to Philadelphia for their 24 and #70 and #87.

They then moved up to #22 in a trade with NE. Denver gave NE the 24 and #113. They drafted DT here. Dez Bryant was on the board. I am not sure I care for either pick and an argument could be made that DT is a better pick but right now Dez is a more complete player and better numbers across the board.

Then the team traded away a lot to Baltimore to draft Tebow. Too much was given away in that trade!

By my count, this team should have had 2 1st round picks in 2 consecutive years as well as 2nd rounders from the Marshall trade. Guys like JPP were there to be had. The year before it was Orakpo, Maztthews, and Hood. This team could be set for a long, long time to come! Instead we are supposed to credit McD for above average, but not great, production out of three guys when 6 of the other picks are not on the roster (or wont be after this year)?

[Ravage!!!]

OK, so instead of giving my two quarters away, I bought a soda. Better now?

I get your point, but like that show "Barter Kings", it's all about perceived value - TO THE TRADER. Clearly, McD thought those picks he specifically acquired were worth the drafting of Tebow. It's not like he got nothing for them. As it turned out Tebow wasn't worth those, but to him he was.

Well. yeah. I mean of course we traded away FOR something, but the problem was that the perceived value of using four picks, and taking in the first round, for Tebow was wayyyyyy too high. I think that was the point from the start.

[Thnikkaman]

More interesting argument:

Tag Alongs vs Samoas

[BroncoJoe]

Well. yeah. I mean of course we traded away FOR something, but the problem was that the perceived value of using four picks, and taking in the first round, for Tebow was wayyyyyy too high. I think that was the point from the start.

I just hate the expression we gave picks away. We really didn't give away anything that we acquired by trading something of lesser perceived value at the time. Call them wasted, but not given away. We got something from them.

[Ravage!!!]

I
They then moved up to #22 in a trade with NE. Denver gave NE the 24 and #113. They drafted DT here. Dez Bryant was on the board. I am not sure I care for either pick and an argument could be made that DT is a better pick but right now Dez is a more complete player and better numbers across the board.



I'll disagree here. I see NOTHING in Dez Bryant's game that makes me believe he's a more complete player. Not to mention, DT is a better teammate. I'll give credit to McD for making the right choice here.

[Ravage!!!]

I just hate the expression we gave picks away. We really didn't give away anything that we acquired by trading something of lesser perceived value at the time. Call them wasted, but not given away. We got something from them.

Ahh.. ok. That's fair.

[rationalfan]

5 1st round picks. 5! This team should be set for a LONG time to come YET it isn't. There are still holes to be filled and depth issues! Josh deserves no thanks whatsoever.

i'm sick of this thought process, regardless of what coach it's attached to.

if that was the case, teams that draft in the top 10, seemingly every year (think the bills, lions, etc.) would be awesome. they aren't. it also suggests that every first round draft pick becomes a star. they don't.

draft picks are a fun commodity, they don't guarantee production or wins.

[rationalfan]

Thank McD??? :lol:

This is the ONLY team that I've seen that a number of fans tray SOOOOOOOO hard to hang onto (and defend) one fo the worst coaches this franchise has EVER had. Did we turn around and thank the likes of Phillips for "all he did" prior to Shanahan? What is it with Kizla and this? McDaniels was CRAP... period.

you're right, McD did do a crap job. and it's not about defending McD, it's about getting tired of the exaggerated responses to McD. at least, it is for me.

[Ravage!!!]

you're right, McD did do a crap job. and it's not about defending McD, it's about getting tired of the exaggerated responses to McD. at least, it is for me.

I get tired of people trying to give him "credit" for all that we've accomplished AFTER him. Its as if he had a single thing to do with it.

[rationalfan]

Come on the 8-8 record is misleading. The team started off 6-0 so that means Denver went 2-8 so it's much worse than how we arrived from the year before. Two four game losing streaks in that period of time. He actually coached 3/4 of the 2010. He was fired after right after we lost to the Chiefs at Arrowhead.

Cutler was by a better quarterback than what he brought in and the same Scheffler and Marshall. Exactly what tight ends did he bring in that could catch the ball? It's not just hope and opinion Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler were very product that is fact. Elway was asked if he would have traded away Cutler and said he would not have done it. Most of players McDaniel drafted on defense are gone. Only two remain and neither one of them is a starter.

You know that the annimosty towards McDaniels is much deeper than just bad personal decisions. The constant fighting with players and staff and how those thing kept getting aired publically. You brought up the '60s and '70s based on wins and losses. McDaniels is viewed the way he is because of what happened off the as much as what happened on it.

you're not wrong. that's for sure.

[Northman]

you're right, McD did do a crap job. and it's not about defending McD, it's about getting tired of the exaggerated responses to McD. at least, it is for me.

Well, to be fair you did post the article and asked for responses.

[Thnikkaman]

This thread exists to expose to everyone who likes to scream at fire hydrants.

[TXBRONC]

This thread exists to expose to everyone who likes to scream at fire hydrants.

I've never screamed at a fire hydrant because they preform a valuable community service but cinder block walls is an entirely different matter.

[TXBRONC]

Well, to be fair you did post the article and asked for responses.

I've very disappointed in you North how you switched your avatar from a hot red head to Vin Diesel? :tsk:

[Northman]

I've very disappointed in you North how you switched your avatar from a hot red head to Vin Diesel? :tsk:

I just had to be cool.

Love that character and movies.

[Simple Jaded]

A better analogy would be I have a dollar and you give me six quarters for that dollar. I give two away, and I have exactly what I had to begin with. It's arguable whether or not I gave anything away.

If you're trying to argue that McDaniels was playing with house money it's bullshit. Those picks didn't magically appear from the Draft Pick Fairy.......

[rationalfan]

you're right, McD did do a crap job. and it's not about defending McD, it's about getting tired of the exaggerated responses to McD. at least, it is for me.

Well, to be fair you did post the article and asked for responses.

I didn't ask for debate, I expected debate. Not the same things.

[Northman]

I didn't ask for debate, I expected debate. Not the same things.

Well, you did post the article so really to complain about the responses seems silly to me.

[BroncofanDK]

I don't know of anyone who claims McDaniels did absolutely nothing good, so this article seems pointless. Obviously he had some good draft picks...DT, some of the offensive line picks, etc. Any fan who can pull up a mock draft online could do decently with the draft picks he had available too. But the wasted picks toward Alphonso Smith, Tebow, and others were misguided too. But in the end, he was never judged on his drafts. He was judged on breaking apart a team with a pro bowl QB and pro bowl wide receiver (and no one could have predicted that these moves would eventually lead to Manning...there's no thank you to be had). And if he remained, we'd also be without Champ Bailey

Hindsight is 20:20, and in hindsight Josh McDaniels at 33 had the maturity to move on from Alphonso Smith very quickly. I know that the haters claim that he should be considered at first round draft choice, when in reality those are the same people that hated trading Cutler and in reality getting a high 2nd round draft pick for an unspecified draftchoice the following year is great value, especially if the Cutlerrettes were right that he was a young elite QB that would assure that the Bears would finish high. Had he used the pick to puick up Manaluga then it would have been an excellent trade.

Then the rest of the 2009 draft; Moreno while not a pick I really liked has proven his worth, as has Ayers.

The ones harping about the drafting of Tebow are totally off base, and the same can be said with many of the players that are not contributing to the Broncos now. John Fox and Josh McDaniels are night and day in their approaches and in how they build teams, and it is stupid to blame McDaniels for building a team that does not fit John Fox'es filosophy.

Tebow for all his limitations looked very promising in the three games he started in 2010, and in 2011 had a 8-1 record in games where the opposing team scored less than 40 points. Judged by anything but "the eye test" and the completion percentage he did better than any young QB in Broncos history - yes including Elway.

None of us know what the McDaniels 2011 team would have looked like, and none of us know who (Xanders/Ellis had the formal control) stopped the renewal of Baileys contract in 2010, and we do not know the thinking.

I am one of the few that would have liked to see Elway controlling football operations/McDaniels as HeadCoach in 2011 and have seen the vision in play. He was the youngest HC ever in NFL to have this much say, and to me it was a scandal that Ellis/Xanders did not seem to do much (officially). If McDaniels really had the control that has been claimed then it was asanine of Bowlen/Ellis to give that, but to me it seems more like McDaniels was the scape goat for a 2010 season that hit major trouble in training camp when the injuries dismembered the team.

The loss to the Raiders was BAAAAD, but the reality is that had we won just one game more in the 2-8 stretch of 2009 or in the loosing streaks in 2010 McDaniels would not have been fired.

[Northman]

There's no vision when your team goes from 8-8 to 4-12. There was no conspiracy scapegoat as the guy who got fired was the right person to get fired. The decisions to trade, to bicker with players, to have late season collapses fall on his shoulders. There was zero indication that he had the ship righted and thankfully Bowlen had the maturity to quickly move on from that mistake.

[TXBRONC]

Hindsight is 20:20, and in hindsight Josh McDaniels at 33 had the maturity to move on from Alphonso Smith very quickly. I know that the haters claim that he should be considered at first round draft choice, when in reality those are the same people that hated trading Cutler and in reality getting a high 2nd round draft pick for an unspecified draftchoice the following year is great value, especially if the Cutlerrettes were right that he was a young elite QB that would assure that the Bears would finish high. Had he used the pick to puick up Manaluga then it would have been an excellent trade.

First off welcome to Broncos Forums. :welcome:

It's hardly a sign a maturity to move a mistake and that he got nothing for him because rather than taking responsibilty for picking Smith he blamed it on not having enough time to evaluate him or for that matter the rest of '09 draft class. You fix the mistake and keep your mouth closed instead passing the blame onto being ill-prepared. IIRC Denver got something like three picks for Culter two of which were first rounders so no that isn't great value. Using the hypothetical of drafting Maualuga just doesn't fly. If McDaniel had draft Maualuga then you good point but that isn't what he did.


Then the rest of the 2009 draft; Moreno while not a pick I really liked has proven his worth, as has Ayers.

Moreno's play has bought himself more time but Ayers hasn't proven squat. Ayers was a fisrt round pick that lost his job to a 2nd round pick and now is only playing on a rotational basis. I don't call that proving your worth.


The ones harping about the drafting of Tebow are totally off base, and the same can be said with many of the players that are not contributing to the Broncos now. John Fox and Josh McDaniels are night and day in their approaches and in how they build teams, and it is stupid to blame McDaniels for building a team that does not fit John Fox'es filosophy.

Fox basically took the same roster that went 4-12 in '10 to 8-8 in '11 and a division title.


Tebow for all his limitations looked very promising in the three games he started in 2010, and in 2011 had a 8-1 record in games where the opposing team scored less than 40 points. Judged by anything but "the eye test" and the completion percentage he did better than any young QB in Broncos history - yes including Elway.

Tebowites love to beat the drum that he played better as a rookie than Elway did. It's a crock he started all of four games a rookie Elway started seven. Tebow didn't get his first start until we were 13 games into the season. Elway was the starter on opening day of his rookie season. It's a weak comparsion imho.


None of us know what the McDaniels 2011 team would have looked like, and none of us know who (Xanders/Ellis had the formal control) stopped the renewal of Baileys contract in 2010, and we do not know the thinking.

Ah no McDaniels had full control of player personnel and he is the one that pulled back on contract negotiations with Bailey. Joe Ellis in a interview said was given to much control over the personnel.


I am one of the few that would have liked to see Elway controlling football operations/McDaniels as HeadCoach in 2011 and have seen the vision in play. He was the youngest HC ever in NFL to have this much say, and to me it was a scandal that Ellis/Xanders did not seem to do much (officially). If McDaniels really had the control that has been claimed then it was asanine of Bowlen/Ellis to give that, but to me it seems more like McDaniels was the scape goat for a 2010 season that hit major trouble in training camp when the injuries dismembered the team.

I don't know who the youngest head coach in NFL history is but I can tell you it isn't McDaniels. Raheem Moore was hired by the Buccaneers in '09 and he was several months younger than McDaniels. The truth is a bitter pill swallow McDaniels was responsible for his own demise. No one forced him to hire the same videographer that was ass deep in the original Spygate. Nobody forced him to lie about what he knew about the original Spygate. No one forced him to take his entire staff before Bowlen just for the sole purpose of ripping them for getting their asses kicked by the Raiders. You call him mature? That's proof he didn't have the balls to man up and take responsibility for the loss to the Raiders. I sure don't call that being mature.


The loss to the Raiders was BAAAAD, but the reality is that had we won just one game more in the 2-8 stretch of 2009 or in the loosing streaks in 2010 McDaniels would not have been fired.

Doubtful at best. Going 9-7 in '09 wouldn't have saved his job. Even if he had stayed here to the end in '10 and won one more game he still would have been given all the other shit that happened. Btw he wasn't the coach for the last win in '10 so his actual record was 3-9 when Bowlen fired his flakey ass not 4-12. Even if he finished 5-11 like what you're actually suggesting he still would have been fired.

[rationalfan]

Well, you did post the article so really to complain about the responses seems silly to me.

pointing that out on a board where everyone complains about something seems silly to me.

[Ravage!!!]

Tebow for all his limitations looked very promising in the three games he started in 2010, and in 2011 had a 8-1 record in games where the opposing team scored less than 40 points. Judged by anything but "the eye test" and the completion percentage he did better than any young QB in Broncos history - yes including Elway.

This says it all as far as trying to take your post seriously. The three games Tebow started in 2010, happened AFTER McDaniels was fired...fired because he couldn't win shit. He didn't even want to start his own draft choice. Saying Tebow did better than Eleway isn't passing the "eye test"..it passes the test where you don't look at anything other than the completion percentage from a QB that wasn't asked to pass the ball.

[Northman]

pointing that out on a board where everyone complains about something seems silly to me.

True, however i was only stating the obvious which is why your initial comment didnt make much sense to begin with.

[Thnikkaman]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/adios-bitches.gif

[Timmy!]

It's time to thank McDaniels for Bron


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31056298.jpg