NFL future?

[Tebowtime2011]

I apologize in advance for my misusing of the word pre-nuptial try to look part that and answer my question. I'm just curious why doesn't the NFL have the players sign pre-nuptial agreements? That stats that they are not responsible for any head trauma a player can receive because the NFL can not control the way a player uses their body. Wouldn't that stop all the lawsuits? Considering junior seaus' family is now sueing the NFL for deliberately ignoring the signs that junior seau was getting life threatening head trauma. Is there a legal issue preventing this or would the NFL's reputation be in jeopardy?

[SR]

Prenuptial = before marriage

[Dzone]

Players can get really messed up from marrying the wrong girl

[Tebowtime2011]

Prenuptial = before marriage Lol sorry used the wrong word but still why c can't the NFL just have the players sign a contract.

[rationalfan]

You're missing the point. The issue is how a team or league provided/fostered a culture that rewarded ignorance of brain injuries.

You're right to point out this is sometimes on the players. But realize the league -and media - didn't always acknowledge brain injuries like it does today.

[sneakers]

This thread needs to be started over

[Dapper Dan]

That would make the NFL seem like they don't care. And the NFL is all about image.

[Chef Zambini]

he asks a valid question, why beat him up for his language issue. signing a "release" would take care of current players, it does NOT help with those who have come before.
ALSO, the NFL REQUIRES the players wear a certain helmet, and this is really at the heart of the matter.
was it the best helmet available?
was proper research done?
did they disclose that research to the players?
all these players played or at least the very vast majority of them, played football for years before enering the NFL.
this will be the leagues best defense against these lawsuits.
to your point, FOOTBALL was an elective for these players. the trauma they experienced before entering the NFL,cannot be accurately measured, but the cummulative effect must be considered.
it will really come down to the helmet research they conducted and what information they may have concealed from the players.
T%he NFLPA must also be conflicted.
do they protect the players, or protect their livelyhood?
I wonder what the concussion rate and injury rate is for aussie rules football?
How does it compare with the NFL?
they wear no helmets or "armor' as they like to call our pads.
is it possible that the very equipment we REQUIRE our players to wear has actually increased their injury / concussion risk?
the topic is an important one, it has the potential to bring the game we love to its knees,
.... and not for a proposal of mariage.

[BroncoJoe]

Personal responsibility. What happened to it?

[Chef Zambini]

how many fingers?
close enough.

[chazoe60]

Personal responsibility. What happened to it?

It's a long dead philosophy.

[Dzone]

Players are so sloppy, look at Frank Gores socks-they are too low...$10,500 fine...good move NFL..god forbid that kids see this and stop pulling their socks up

[wayninja]

I haven't bungee jumped yet, but only because I can't find a place that won't make me sign a waiver. But when I do... bingo.

[BroncoWave]

Personal responsibility. What happened to it?

So players are responsible for being mis-diagnosed or for the NFL not having strict enough rules on when you can start playing after head trauma? What?

[Ravage!!!]

The players knew they could/would be injured. They knew their bell was rung, they knew they wanted to get onto the field and play. This "blaming the NFL" is complete and total crap, and its just another (in a long line) "I can blame someone else because its profitable."

The NFL SHOULD make players sign this waiver. I believe car racers have to. Are they going to tell me that the NASCAR racers aren't going to get into that car because they know they might be injured? They have to sign waivers all the time. I doubt you could find ONE player in the NFL that would not get on the field if they had to sign a waiver stating they know the dangers of head injury. They know the dangers NOW.. and none are quitting because of it.

this "not having strict enough rules".. is complete and total BS. The sport is wrapped and designed about hard COLLISIONS.

[BroncoWave]

The players knew they could/would be injured. They knew their bell was rung, they knew they wanted to get onto the field and play. This "blaming the NFL" is complete and total crap, and its just another (in a long line) "I can blame someone else because its profitable."

The NFL SHOULD make players sign this waiver. I believe car racers have to. Are they going to tell me that the NASCAR racers aren't going to get into that car because they know they might be injured? They have to sign waivers all the time. I doubt you could find ONE player in the NFL that would not get on the field if they had to sign a waiver stating they know the dangers of head injury. They know the dangers NOW.. and none are quitting because of it.

this "not having strict enough rules".. is complete and total BS. The sport is wrapped and designed about hard COLLISIONS.

You think NFL players were fully educated on the dangers of head trauma after they played? Come on man. Today they are certainly aware of the danger. But 20 years ago? The NFL hugely promoted the culture of big, dangerous headshots and had no guidelines in place to keep a player who shouldn't have gone on the field from going back onto it.

I'm not necessarily saying suing the NFL is the best course of action, but to say that all of these problems on head trauma are completely on the players and the league has no responsibility? Come on man.

I know I'll get the same tired response of "they signed up to play and get millions of dollars, so they should deal with the consequences" but that's just such a stupid argument. Just because you voluntarily sign up for a job doesn't mean you have no rights to workplace safety.

[silkamilkamonico]

Youth participation in football is at an all time low and has been on a steady decline over the last few years. Parents aren't letting their kids play, and I'm sure as hell not letting mine play. With that being said, it's still a great game, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon, there will be far enough players coming up who are choosing to play the game. The NFL will continue to take steps to monitor and improve the injuries regarding the brain.

[Ravage!!!]

You think NFL players were fully educated on the dangers of head trauma after they played? Come on man. Today they are certainly aware of the danger. But 20 years ago? The NFL hugely promoted the culture of big, dangerous headshots and had no guidelines in place to keep a player who shouldn't have gone on the field from going back onto it.

I'm not necessarily saying suing the NFL is the best course of action, but to say that all of these problems on head trauma are completely on the players and the league has no responsibility? Come on man.

I know I'll get the same tired response of "they signed up to play and get millions of dollars, so they should deal with the consequences" but that's just such a stupid argument. Just because you voluntarily sign up for a job doesn't mean you have no rights to workplace safety.

I'm saying that the players today know MUCH more... and none are quitting. I'm saying that players knew that there were dangers for ALLLLL kinds of dangers playing football, including death. I'm saying that the "head injuries" has been increased in the media adnausium, and now players want to say "you mean running into one another wasn't good for our heads???" Thats crap. They knew there were dangers. Whether they knew the "exact" name of the dangers, doesn't matter. Now they want money for it? Now the NFL is changing rules to make the game crappier to watch, and people want to say "ahhh, they need more rules." Bull.

You don't see NASCAR putting giant balloon cushions around their cars, you don't see the UFC putting giant, puffy, hand mitts on their fighters. You don't see bull fighters cutting off the horns of the bull. Why is that? Because the sport is willing to recognize that he sport is dangerous, they KNOW its dangerous, and the players involved sign the waivers stating they know its dangerous. ANY ex-football player that you hear talk, says "Knowing what I know today, I would STILL play."

Its just another way for people to try and blame others for the decisions they made years ago. The "I didn't know"...is just a veil to hide behind.

[Dapper Dan]

You think NFL players were fully educated on the dangers of head trauma after they played? Come on man. Today they are certainly aware of the danger. But 20 years ago? The NFL hugely promoted the culture of big, dangerous headshots and had no guidelines in place to keep a player who shouldn't have gone on the field from going back onto it.

I'm not necessarily saying suing the NFL is the best course of action, but to say that all of these problems on head trauma are completely on the players and the league has no responsibility? Come on man.

I know I'll get the same tired response of "they signed up to play and get millions of dollars, so they should deal with the consequences" but that's just such a stupid argument. Just because you voluntarily sign up for a job doesn't mean you have no rights to workplace safety.

So (20 years ago) did the NFL knowingly send players out to be harmed while lying to them about the extent of injuries or did the NFL genuinely not know about the risks and dangers that would arise from head trauma?

I don't know the details of former players healthcare, but I assume it's one of the better in the country.

Former players go broke everyday. Only the ones that kill themselves seem to find a way to set up their families financially.

[vandammage13]

As for the "pre-nuptual agreement" I don't think its something the NFLPA would ever sign off on.

[wayninja]

You think NFL players were fully educated on the dangers of head trauma after they played? Come on man. Today they are certainly aware of the danger. But 20 years ago? The NFL hugely promoted the culture of big, dangerous headshots and had no guidelines in place to keep a player who shouldn't have gone on the field from going back onto it.

I'm not necessarily saying suing the NFL is the best course of action, but to say that all of these problems on head trauma are completely on the players and the league has no responsibility? Come on man.

I know I'll get the same tired response of "they signed up to play and get millions of dollars, so they should deal with the consequences" but that's just such a stupid argument. Just because you voluntarily sign up for a job doesn't mean you have no rights to workplace safety.

Do you really need a doctor to tell you that repeated blows to the head serious enough to cause concussion can have other adverse affects?

[Dapper Dan]

Do you really need a doctor to tell you that repeated blows to the head serious enough to cause concussion can have other adverse affects?

We're talking about 20 years ago. People were stupid back then. I was only 3 and a half.

[Chef Zambini]

Personal responsibility. What happened to it?the legal sytem has chosen to ignore it.

[CoachChaz]

I think if a blame should lie anywhere, it should be on their agents. Arent these people paid to protect the players interests? I understand that we are dealing with a group of people that are mostly dumber than the average 5th grader, but if someone should go to court or be responsible for not letting these geniuses know the potential problems...it should be those that represent them.

[Ravage!!!]

We're talking about 20 years ago. People were stupid back then. I was only 3 and a half.

yeah.. we didn't know that being hit in the head hurt, could hurt us, cause concussions, or make us dizzy. No no. We thought that the dents in our head were normal. If onlly we realized that that bash into our head, the stars that we saw, the dizziness that we felt, the falling down as we walked, and the blurred vision were signs of concussions. Man, how did the public survive 20 years ago being so stupid?

[Nomad]

Youth participation in football is at an all time low and has been on a steady decline over the last few years. Parents aren't letting their kids play, and I'm sure as hell not letting mine play. With that being said, it's still a great game, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon, there will be far enough players coming up who are choosing to play the game. The NFL will continue to take steps to monitor and improve the injuries regarding the brain.


Yep! I'm not letting mine drive or even leave the house.

[Ravage!!!]

Yep! I'm not letting mine drive or even leave the house.

Driving is dangerous, and is KNOWN to kill people! Do people realize this? They are driving anywhere from 20 to 60 miles per hour, with nothing more than some painted, dotted, imaginary, line protecting them!

Don't let your kids drive. The studies show that accidents happen, neck injuries are obvious, and the increase of cars on the road is just GROWING! :shocked:

[silkamilkamonico]

Terrible argument to somehow spin this into driving. Does playing basketball cause brain damage?


The NFL is in a terrible place if the players knew playing football would cause them brain damage, and then are deciding to sue the NFl anyways.

[GEM]

Look how long it took Seau's family to sue. As if they didn't realize during his career the danger, but then it was ok because of the huge paydays that they all lived off of. Now they need to have something else to live off.

[GEM]

Sooooo....since now they are going to sue the NFL.....should we cut their outrageous salaries? I mean, that's why they get paid these outlandish salaries is because of the risk of injury and entertainment. Hell, cut the salaries and they sue after retirement.

[Dapper Dan]

It's a good point to ask why colleges never seem to be blamed. If you think playing at that level doesn't cause brain issues, look at Teo.

[BroncoWave]

yeah.. we didn't know that being hit in the head hurt, could hurt us, cause concussions, or make us dizzy. No no. We thought that the dents in our head were normal. If onlly we realized that that bash into our head, the stars that we saw, the dizziness that we felt, the falling down as we walked, and the blurred vision were signs of concussions. Man, how did the public survive 20 years ago being so stupid?

Well apparently the NFL either didn't know or didn't care because there were pretty much no guidelines to make sure a player with a concussion didn't try to go back on the field. They definitely promoted the "macho" attitude where you have to be tough and play through any injury.

[silkamilkamonico]

Look how long it took Seau's family to sue. As if they didn't realize during his career the danger, but then it was ok because of the huge paydays that they all lived off of. Now they need to have something else to live off.

Exactly why the NFL should be concerned moving forward. It's going to have years to deal with these actions. They see money, and the players union has given them more than enough of a window to see any possible light.

[BroncoWave]

Sooooo....since now they are going to sue the NFL.....should we cut their outrageous salaries? I mean, that's why they get paid these outlandish salaries is because of the risk of injury and entertainment. Hell, cut the salaries and they sue after retirement.

I don't see the relation between salary and a safe work environment. Fans seem to think since players make tons of money they have no gripe about how safe the game is. Are they not allowed to make a lot of money AND not die of brain trauma in their 40's and 50's?

[GEM]

Yep! I'm not letting mine drive or even leave the house.

If I told my boys they couldn't play football, they probably would have tied me up in the closet on Saturdays and found their way to the field. :laugh:

[Ravage!!!]

I don't see the relation between salary and a safe work environment. Fans seem to think since players make tons of money they have no gripe about how safe the game is. Are they not allowed to make a lot of money AND not die of brain trauma in their 40's and 50's?

Thats ridiculous. Are they somehow going onto a field and NOT knowing whats going to happen? Do they not know the nature of the sport? Isn't the sport able to pay MILLIONS of dollars to the participants BECAUSE its dangerous? You are making it sound as if the players are somehow "Fooled" as to what they must do only after signing their contract. "What, we have to run into each other!!?"

The sport is built around violence, and the absurd statements that these players are somehow "just finding out" that they could have damage done to their bodies is completely absurd to say the least. This is nothing more than a way to gain money because they can. It's embarrassing.

if the players want to make that kind of money and NOT have the chance for damage to the body.... DON'T play football. Period. It's pretty simple.

[silkamilkamonico]

Well apparently the NFL either didn't know or didn't care because there were pretty much no guidelines to make sure a player with a concussion didn't try to go back on the field. They definitely promoted the "macho" attitude where you have to be tough and play through any injury.

What's worse, is the NFL has had the absolute worst healthcare for retirees, ironically in a sport whwere it is needed most.

Something was missed severly along the lines of taking care of players during, and after their NFL days by someone.

ESPN radio had had great segments about this for over the course of the last couple years.

[BroncoWave]

Thats ridiculous. Are they somehow going onto a field and NOT knowing whats going to happen? Do they not know the nature of the sport? Isn't the sport able to pay MILLIONS of dollars to the participants BECAUSE its dangerous? You are making it sound as if the players are somehow "Fooled" as to what they must do only after signing their contract. "What, we have to run into each other!!?"

The sport is built around violence, and the absurd statements that these players are somehow "just finding out" that they could have damage done to their bodies is completely absurd to say the least. This is nothing more than a way to gain money because they can. It's embarrassing.

if the players want to make that kind of money and NOT have the chance for damage to the body.... DON'T play football. Period. It's pretty simple.

I have to say Rav, you are a pro at completely twisting and misrepresenting people's arguments. I never once said or even insinuated that the players were "fooled" into thinking football is safe.

Of course they know it's a dangerous game that comes with risks. But how does that completely absolve the NFL of protecting them? Why can't players choose to play the game AND have it made as safe as possible. You act like everything has to be an extreme. Either you play the game and have complete disregard for health risks, or you stay safe and just don't play at all. You just refuse to accept that a middle ground could possibly exist.

Are you saying I'm wrong that before recent years, the NFL fostered a culture where you had to be big and tough and stay in the game regardless of any injury, even one to the head?

[BroncoWave]

What's worse, is the NFL has had the absolute worst healthcare for retirees, ironically in a sport whwere it is needed most.

Something was missed severly along the lines of taking care of players during, and after their NFL days by someone.

ESPN radio had had great segments about this for over the course of the last couple years.

Nope, sorry. Since the NFL pays them alot they are completely off the hook for worrying about safety! Apparently you aren't allowed to have a league that pays the players a lot AND protects their safety.

[rationalfan]

Thats ridiculous. Are they somehow going onto a field and NOT knowing whats going to happen? Do they not know the nature of the sport? Isn't the sport able to pay MILLIONS of dollars to the participants BECAUSE its dangerous? You are making it sound as if the players are somehow "Fooled" as to what they must do only after signing their contract. "What, we have to run into each other!!?"

The sport is built around violence, and the absurd statements that these players are somehow "just finding out" that they could have damage done to their bodies is completely absurd to say the least. This is nothing more than a way to gain money because they can. It's embarrassing.

if the players want to make that kind of money and NOT have the chance for damage to the body.... DON'T play football. Period. It's pretty simple.

no one is suggesting the players are surprised to learn football is a violent sport with consequences. that's just silly. the debate is about how some people/teams treated brain injuries with the same tact as broken bones or ligaments; just as you're doing. that's the problem, not the idea that football is somehow just learning it's a contact sport.

[Ravage!!!]

I have to say Rav, you are a pro at completely twisting and misrepresenting people's arguments. I never once said or even insinuated that the players were "fooled" into thinking football is safe.

Of course they know it's a dangerous game that comes with risks. But how does that completely absolve the NFL of protecting them? Why can't players choose to play the game AND have it made as safe as possible. You act like everything has to be an extreme. Either you play the game and have complete disregard for health risks, or you stay safe and just don't play at all. You just refuse to accept that a middle ground could possibly exist.

Are you saying I'm wrong that before recent years, the NFL fostered a culture where you had to be big and tough and stay in the game regardless of any injury, even one to the head?

Ididn't twist anything. You make it sound as if the NFL is responsible because these players have head injuries, and these players are "Only now" recognizing the dangers of their head hits. Thats the veil they are hiding behind, because they can, but its all BS. Anyone with any sense of logic knows that there was always danger to the body, and going back NOW to try and gain compensation for that is purely frivolous.

You want to say "why can't they be safe while playing"... because its FOOTBALL. Because the nature of the sport is CONTACT. Because the make of the game is violent, with collisions, and danger is part of the SPORT of which they signed up for. Why can't race car drivers choose to race at 250 miles per hour and not have risk of crash?? Because the nature of the sport is RISK at driving 250 miles per hour. Football is a game of TACKLING, hitting, colliding. To then go back and sue because they are now feeling the results of those collisions is ridiculous.

The "why can't they eat their cake and have it too"...is what you are asking for. Why can't they choose to play a sport of violent collisions, and still remain ok? Why can't they choose to make millions in a violent sport, while being safe? They are getting paid the kind of money they do, because the fans want to watch violent collisions, hard hits, while watching a sport of armor clad gladiators crash into one another. The sport wouldn't have grown to the heights it has, if we treated them as we are today.. with soft hits, paddy-cake tackles, and not being able to tackle anyone.

If they don't want to take the dangers that go along with playing football, then they should stick with the silk way of thinking, and just not play. Find another living. There are a TON of jobs that pay very well, but are very dangerous. Guess what... I don't choose those for MY living because I don't want to risk the danger. Shouldn't I be able to do the dangerous jobs, while not being dangerous, and still get paid the high amounts of money? Why not? Don't I have a right to do the dangerous things without there being danger?

[rationalfan]

Nope, sorry. Since the NFL pays them alot they are completely off the hook for worrying about safety! Apparently you aren't allowed to have a league that pays the players a lot AND protects their safety.

or foster an environment that ensures its fans' favorite players will have longer careers, and be able to celebrate the game with the fans long after their careers are over.

[BroncoWave]

Ididn't twist anything. You make it sound as if the NFL is responsible because these players have head injuries, and these players are "Only now" recognizing the dangers of their head hits. Thats the veil they are hiding behind, because they can, but its all BS. Anyone with any sense of logic knows that there was always danger to the body, and going back NOW to try and gain compensation for that is purely frivolous.

You want to say "why can't they be safe while playing"... because its FOOTBALL. Because the nature of the sport is CONTACT. Because the make of the game is violent, with collisions, and danger is part of the SPORT of which they signed up for. Why can't race car drivers choose to race at 250 miles per hour and not have risk of crash?? Because the nature of the sport is RISK at driving 250 miles per hour. Football is a game of TACKLING, hitting, colliding. To then go back and sue because they are now feeling the results of those collisions is ridiculous.

The "why can't they eat their cake and have it too"...is what you are asking for. Why can't they choose to play a sport of violent collisions, and still remain ok? Why can't they choose to make millions in a violent sport, while being safe? They are getting paid the kind of money they do, because the fans want to watch violent collisions, hard hits, while watching a sport of armor clad gladiators crash into one another. The sport wouldn't have grown to the heights it has, if we treated them as we are today.. with soft hits, paddy-cake tackles, and not being able to tackle anyone.

If they don't want to take the dangers that go along with playing football, then they should stick with the silk way of thinking, and just not play. Find another living. There are a TON of jobs that pay very well, but are very dangerous. Guess what... I don't choose those for MY living because I don't want to risk the danger. Shouldn't I be able to do the dangerous jobs, while not being dangerous, and still get paid the high amounts of money? Why not? Don't I have a right to do the dangerous things without there being danger?

So you are saying the NFL was completely in the right by letting players with head injuries go back on the field? I just want to be clear.

[Ravage!!!]

no one is suggesting the players are surprised to learn football is a violent sport with consequences. that's just silly. the debate is about how some people/teams treated brain injuries with the same tact as broken bones or ligaments; just as you're doing. that's the problem, not the idea that football is somehow just learning it's a contact sport.

That's the debate? Since when?

So because things were treated differently, gives them the right to now sue? Saying what, that they are just now realizing that collisions were dangerous to my health? Its frivolous. Its looking to gain from the profits of today's sport, because they didn't make what the players are today when THEY played. Its simply wanting to gain money because they have the chance to. It's ridiculous.
Each one of t

[Ravage!!!]

So you are saying the NFL was completely in the right by letting players with head injuries go back on the field? I just want to be clear.

I'm saying that the players KNEW their dangers. The OP asked why doesn't the NFL have the players sign a waiver, and I'm saying they should, as its pretty COMMON SENSE to know that you are risking injury by running into things all the time, for years. EVERYONE knew it. The fans knew it, and the PLAYERS knew it. Why should anyone be blamed, now, because they chose to take those risk THEN?

[chazoe60]

The players were the ones fostering the tough guy attitude. Holy shit. I wonder if I can sue my employer if I go grab a high voltage lead? It's all about money. Some ex-players see a way to make a buck so they're going for it.

[BroncoWave]

I'm saying that the players KNEW their dangers. The OP asked why doesn't the NFL have the players sign a waiver, and I'm saying they should, as its pretty COMMON SENSE to know that you are risking injury by running into things all the time, for years. EVERYONE knew it. The fans knew it, and the PLAYERS knew it. Why should anyone be blamed, now, because they chose to take those risk THEN?

So if a team doctor examined a guy, didn't think it was safe for him to keep playing, but the player kept playing, that team/the doctor/the league is absolved of responsibility huh? Makes total sense! :lol:

[Poet]

Well I hate to be the guy who points this out, but if the league did hide the big boy effects of concussions, then they did commit a pretty awful crime. If they knew that concussions caused and linked to depression or other serious issues that no one else did AND they concealed it, they really ****** up.

However, if that is not the case then it's much ado about nothing.

[wayninja]

or foster an environment that ensures its fans' favorite players will have longer careers, and be able to celebrate the game with the fans long after their careers are over.

That's a slippery slope. How much does the NFL have to do to satisfy this? Will it ever be enough? If it's deemed not to be enough by someone, you get a lawsuit. Welcome to 2013.

[wayninja]

Well I hate to be the guy who points this out, but if the league did hide the big boy effects of concussions, then they did commit a pretty awful crime. If they knew that concussions caused and linked to depression or other serious issues that no one else did AND they concealed it, they really ****** up.

However, if that is not the case then it's much ado about nothing.

Since when is the NFL on par with the New England journal of medicine? It's not the NFL's job to do medical research IMHO. That's for, well, professionals. If you get your advice from the Gas station clerk as to the health value of the hotdog spinning on the rotisserie, you deserve salmonella.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but people can't only believe what they want to when it suits them and then sue when it doesn't.

[Poet]

Since when is the NFL on par with the New England journal of medicine? It's not the NFL's job to do medical research IMHO. That's for, well, professionals. If you get your advice from the Gas station clerk as to the health value of the hotdog spinning on the rotisserie, you deserve salmonella.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but people can't only believe what they want to when it suits them and then sue when it doesn't.

The NFL has always had a relationships with doctors. I think you're missing what I'm saying my friend. If they did in fact know, if they did, then they messed up. There are avenues that exist that make it possible for them to have known. That's all I'm saying.

[wayninja]

The NFL has always had a relationships with doctors. I think you're missing what I'm saying my friend. If they did in fact know, if they did, then they messed up. There are avenues that exist that make it possible for them to have known. That's all I'm saying.

I hear what you are saying, but knowing a fact (that should be obvious to anyone with common sense, regardless of the nuanced particulars) is not a crime and not spouting the facts that you know to everyone does not make you negligent. Or at least that's what I believe. Modern culture is certainly against me.

Everyone has had relationships with Doctors. Hopefully even players.

[NightTrainLayne]

A waiver would probably be worthless. If the NFL acted in negligence (i.e. not sharing information about brain injuries with players), then no waiver in the world would save them.

Going forward, I still don't know that a waiver would hold up in court down the road. It's a false security to supposedly have someone waive away their rights.

[Poet]

I hear what you are saying, but knowing a fact (that should be obvious to anyone with common sense, regardless of the nuanced particulars) is not a crime and not spouting the facts that you know to everyone does not make you negligent. Or at least that's what I believe. Modern culture is certainly against me.

Everyone has had relationships with Doctors. Hopefully even players.

It sucks. I would only have it out for them if they somehow knew about concussions =ing depression. Like you, I think it's hard to believe that they would fully know that.

[rationalfan]

the takeaway of this thread:
- unlike most of the american workforce, the players have no rights because they make a lot of money and they chose the profession they wanted to go into.
- unlike most corporations, the nfl isn't at fault for any injuries its employees sustain during their job duties.
- unlike the rest of the legal/professional structure of america, new scientific evidence is irrelevant because "everyone" knows that hitting your head against hard objects is bad for you, regardless of the nuances.

i don't mean to be a dick by simplifying this, but it sounds like some people really don't want to treat nfl players with the same regard as every other american citizen.

[BroncoWave]

the takeaway of this thread:
- unlike most of the american workforce, the players have no rights because they make a lot of money and they chose the profession they wanted to go into.
- unlike most corporations, the nfl isn't at fault for any injuries its employees sustain during their job duties.
- unlike the rest of the legal/professional structure of america, new scientific evidence is irrelevant because "everyone" knows that hitting your head against hard objects is bad for you, regardless of the nuances.

i don't mean to be a dick by simplifying this, but it sounds like some people really don't want to treat nfl players with the same regard as every other american citizen.

You summed this up better than I ever could. Apparently to many people NFL players are nothing more than tokens for our entertainment and deserve none of the same rights as any other American worker for no other reason than "they make alot of money and know what they are getting into".

I also get a kick out of the "if they don't want the danger of football, they could work in another field" argument. That is laughable at best. For many of these players, playing football is the only marketable skill they have. It's not like they could just give up football and just start being a doctor or lawyer or something. Some could, but for many, football is the only way they will ever make decent money. Why make them have to choose between that and long term health?

[wayninja]

the takeaway of this thread:
- unlike most of the american workforce, the players have no rights because they make a lot of money and they chose the profession they wanted to go into.
- unlike most corporations, the nfl isn't at fault for any injuries its employees sustain during their job duties.
- unlike the rest of the legal/professional structure of america, new scientific evidence is irrelevant because "everyone" knows that hitting your head against hard objects is bad for you, regardless of the nuances.

i don't mean to be a dick by simplifying this, but it sounds like some people really don't want to treat nfl players with the same regard as every other american citizen.

No rights? Except the right to freely chose where to work, when to see a doctor, how to spend their money etc, etc. Let's not go off the deep end with the 'rights' stuff.

Most corporations don't have job duties that are described similarly to "Run into somebody full force and tackle them to the ground, violently". So, yeah.

New scientific data is relevant where it's relevant. Evidence of brain trauma due to concussive blows does not make the NFL culpable for those facts. Facts are good, but let's pretend that without these new 'facts', people thought that slamming your head into things for years was 'good' for you. The compensation is commensurate with the risk. The risk is nearly self-evident, with the obvious fact that we have not achieved omniscience on the subject. I'm not sure what the big deal is here.

NFL players are treated with the same regard as every other american citizen. I haven't seen an argument here that refutes that. There are inherent risks to playing contact football that are assumed where the same risks would not apply to working at Mcdonalds. You simply can't make them apples to apples because you want them to be.

[wayninja]

It sucks. I would only have it out for them if they somehow knew about concussions =ing depression. Like you, I think it's hard to believe that they would fully know that.

The game of football has existed before the NFL. Human competitive nature has existed before the NFL. Men trying to be macho has existed before the NFL.

It's simply hard to believe that the NFL is responsible for all of these things, which is basically what some folks want them to be responsible for.

If there was some provable cover-up conspiracy here, there may be some merit, but I still think you have to prove that the NFL is the responsible source for medical knowledge of head trauma. Why not blame them for not disclosing that having a lot of money can lead to irresponsible behavior? Because that can happen too.

[wayninja]

I also get a kick out of the "if they don't want the danger of football, they could work in another field" argument. That is laughable at best. For many of these players, playing football is the only marketable skill they have. It's not like they could just give up football and just start being a doctor or lawyer or something. Some could, but for many, football is the only way they will ever make decent money. Why make them have to choose between that and long term health?

This is a joke right? Because you do know that 99.9999% of americans don't play professional football and still somehow manage to function in society?

I'm also willing to bet that some of them may be less than college educated and at below average physical health.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like this. Where is my job where I can work less than 50% of the year, make more than 90% of people and have no risk? I demand this, as an american citizen.

[BroncoWave]

This is a joke right? Because you do know that 99.9999% of americans don't play professional football and still somehow manage to function in society?

I'm also willing to bet that some of them may be less than college educated and at below average physical health.

I'm not saying they couldn't still function in society, but why should they have to give up millions of dollars in exchange for their health when the NFL has been more than capable of making the game safer for years?

[wayninja]

I'm not saying they couldn't still function in society, but why should they have to give up millions of dollars in exchange for their health when the NFL has been more than capable of making the game safer for years?

Because without any risk, the value of the job isn't worth millions?

Put another way, the risk is what helps make the sport make so much money. Take that away and you take the money away too. The NFL tampering with 'the game' can have adverse effects on it's popularity and therefore it's profitability.

Also, the NFL has made changes. Lots of them. Since 'the game' is it's baby, I don't blame them for being tentative about making too many invasive changes to it.

Lastly, the game, by it's very nature, carries risk. It's that simple. There is nothing the NFL can do to both keep the game as we know it and eliminate the risks. I'll say it again, the 'risks' are what makes the game so popular and profitable. We don't pay to see flag football.

[rationalfan]

NFL players are treated with the same regard as every other american citizen.

this is, perhaps, the most untrue statement in this thread; and that's saying a lot when you read the posts in here. again, i'm not trying to be a dick to you, but that statement is a convenient exaggeration we tell ourselves to rationalize many, many things.

[rationalfan]

I'm not saying they couldn't still function in society, but why should they have to give up millions of dollars in exchange for their health when the NFL has been more than capable of making the game safer for years?

This.

[wayninja]

this is, perhaps, the most untrue statement in this thread; and that's saying a lot when you read the posts in here. again, i'm not trying to be a dick to you, but that statement is a convenient exaggeration we tell ourselves to rationalize many, many things.

This from the poster who said that NFL players have no rights? Talk about a convenient exaggeration!

But you can't leave it there. Why is it an exaggeration? Can you elaborate as to how they are treated less fairly then the average citizen?

[BroncoWave]

Because without any risk, the value of the job isn't worth millions?

Put another way, the risk is what helps make the sport make so much money. Take that away and you take the money away too. The NFL tampering with 'the game' can have adverse effects on it's popularity and therefore it's profitability.

Also, the NFL has made changes. Lots of them. Since 'the game' is it's baby, I don't blame them for being tentative about making too many invasive changes to it.

Lastly, the game, by it's very nature, carries risk. It's that simple. There is nothing the NFL can do to both keep the game as we know it and eliminate the risks. I'll say it again, the 'risks' are what makes the game so popular and profitable. We don't pay to see flag football.

This is completely untrue. Their job is worth millions because their play on the field makes the NFL billions. Players in much safer sports like golf are also worth millions. You can make the game safer and they players would still be worth millions.

[wayninja]

This is completely untrue. Their job is worth millions because their play on the field makes the NFL billions. Players in much safer sports like golf are also worth millions. You can make the game safer and they players would still be worth millions.

Golf is not football. Therefore golf's popularity isn't based on the same thing as football. You can't separate the 'play on the field' from the risk inherent in that play.

How much money can I make playing flag football do you think?

[Dapper Dan]

I can't swim. I don't want to drown. So I don't work on a dock.
I'm scared of heights. I don't want to fall off of a house. I don't work in the roofing business.

Every job has risks. No matter how safe you try to make it. Someone can still drown. Someone can still fall.

Are the players not allowed to take their money and go see a doctor not employed by the NFL. Does the NFL forbid that?

I make roughly $15,000 a year. If I made the league minimum in the NFL, I'm sure I could afford to go to the doctor. I'm sure my wife wouldn't have waited until yesterday to go to the doctor and find out her gallbladder is in bad shape. I'm sorry JR Seau didn't save his money and use a portion of it to get checked out by a doctor.

More hazardous jobs usually pay more. That's just how it is.

I doubt the NFL healthcare is worse than the VA. A soldier just died a few days ago because there was something wrong with him and no one knew about it. He didn't have the money to go to the doctor. Now he's dead.

I just have a hard time being so sympathetic about how tough professional athletes have it.

[BroncoWave]

Golf is not football. Therefore golf's popularity isn't based on the same thing as football. You can't separate the 'play on the field' from the risk inherent in that play.

How much money can I make playing flag football do you think?

Has the NFL lost ratings or money since changing the rules to make the game safer? Didn't think so.

[wayninja]

Has the NFL lost ratings or money since changing the rules to make the game safer? Didn't think so.

So, then what are we arguing about? It's safer now!

[G_Money]

The NFL can make the game safer. I still think it's helmet technology that'll save the NFL from becoming flag football. Foam padding and one hard-shell exterior isn't gonna be the wave of the future. They've got to distribute and absorb impact better than they currently do. I think this guy is going in the right direction (plus the helmets still look cool, so it won't be a MLB Gazoo helmet issue):

http://www.michaelprincip.com/bulwark01/index.php

It'll be the NASCAR harness situation that will allow a sport with violent collisions to continue.

But the lawsuits aren't about what the NFL can do going forward, they're about what they've done in the past. If the NFL had concussion studies that they buried and they're found out, the owners are gonna take a beating in the pocket book. I expect the NFL to start up a kitty for brain trauma via settlement, and all current and former players will be able to draw from that based on their cases. They're perfecting a test for CTE in living folks (not just finding it in dead brains) and if they can find a way to help clear out that protein or prevent it from forming then most of the NFL's problems disappear.

But after said settlement, I expect the NFL to put language in their contracts about what players can and cannot receive for future evidence of brain injury, and business will continue as normal - though hopefully with better equipment, diagnosis and treatment going forward.

~G

[Dapper Dan]

Has the NFL lost ratings or money since changing the rules to make the game safer? Didn't think so.

Is the game safer? It seems worse for defenders like Seau. If he actually played today he would probably be hounded with random fines. CB Porter got a concussion. It seems like mostly the defenders had the problems and all the rule changes are helping the offense. In which it's become pass happy. In which more points are scored. In which more money is made be cause the casual fan likes points. If there were rules to hinder the passing game, the game would be over faster, there would be less plays. But it would be "boring".

[rationalfan]

This from the poster who said that NFL players have no rights? Talk about a convenient exaggeration!

But you can't leave it there. Why is it an exaggeration? Can you elaborate as to how they are treated less fairly then the average citizen?

first, my post about players not having the same rights as average citizens was a summary of the mood of this thread. i didn't say it was fact.

second, you're implying that my response to your post is suggesting nfl players are treated less fair than average citizens. that's your interpretation (says more about you than me). you stated "NFL players are treated with the same regard as every other american citizen." no they're not. they're celebrated as heroes, cursed at as scapegoats and used as commodity at a much higher rate than the average US citizen. if you need an example, when is the last time somebody asked for the autograph of a second-tier plumber or architect?

[Nomad]

If I told my boys they couldn't play football, they probably would have tied me up in the closet on Saturdays and found their way to the field. :laugh:

Both my boys play football and have since pee wee, but I'm more concerned with my oldest pitching at the high school level than playing cornerback. It's all about reaction time. I'd rather him stick to playing centerfield.

[Dapper Dan]

Both my boys play football and have since pee wee, but I'm more concerned with my oldest pitching at the high school level than playing cornerback. It's all about reaction time. I'd rather him stick to playing centerfield.

The MLB really needs to switch to a softer baseball and weaker bats. Maybe plastic ones like in wiffle ball. For the safety of the game.

[Slick]

the takeaway of this thread:
- unlike most of the american workforce, the players have no rights because they make a lot of money and they chose the profession they wanted to go into.
- unlike most corporations, the nfl isn't at fault for any injuries its employees sustain during their job duties.
- unlike the rest of the legal/professional structure of america, new scientific evidence is irrelevant because "everyone" knows that hitting your head against hard objects is bad for you, regardless of the nuances.

i don't mean to be a dick by simplifying this, but it sounds like some people really don't want to treat nfl players with the same regard as every other american citizen.

You summed this up better than I ever could. Apparently to many people NFL players are nothing more than tokens for our entertainment and deserve none of the same rights as any other American worker for no other reason than "they make alot of money and know what they are getting into".

I also get a kick out of the "if they don't want the danger of football, they could work in another field" argument. That is laughable at best. For many of these players, playing football is the only marketable skill they have. It's not like they could just give up football and just start being a doctor or lawyer or something. Some could, but for many, football is the only way they will ever make decent money. Why make them have to choose between that and long term health?

How about they take advantage of the free full ride to a university?

I am sympathetic to the concussion arguement but don't use "it's the only way they could ever get a good paying job"

That's just bullshit and we all know it.

[Poet]

Slick, some of these guys are morons and it may be the only way that they could get a good - and legal- job that pays well.

I don't think that it is pertinent to the conversation, though.

[BroncoWave]

Slick, some of these guys are morons and it may be the only way that they could get a good - and legal- job that pays well.

I don't think that it is pertinent to the conversation, though.

It's pertinent in the sense that many people say "Well if they don't want to risk their safety they can just not play". Many players would probably end up broke and on the street/in jail without football. Hell that happens to tons of people who actually played in the NFL anyway.

[Slick]

It's not. Thats why I picked it out of BTB's post.

...and it's their own damn fault that some of them are morons. I just can't let that slide. The guys who piss away their free college opportunities is a sore subject with me.

Like I said, I'm sympathetic to the players in this case. I think the NFL should do everything in their power to protect players while still trying to keep the integrity of the game we are all fans of.

I don't think there is a cover up as to what they knew 20 years ago, but I do think the NFL did a shitty job of providing care to the retired players

I remember seeing a story about John Mackey that brought tears to my eyes.

[Slick]

Slick, some of these guys are morons and it may be the only way that they could get a good - and legal- job that pays well.

I don't think that it is pertinent to the conversation, though.

It's pertinent in the sense that many people say "Well if they don't want to risk their safety they can just not play". Many players would probably end up broke and on the street/in jail without football. Hell that happens to tons of people who actually played in the NFL anyway.

Then It's their own fault. That's a horrible argument man.

[WARHORSE]

They said Junior Seau was showing signs of head trauma looong before he retired. So im wondering.....where were his caring family members then? Why didnt they stop him from playing anymore?
They said he was forgetful, had bad headaches, short term memory loss, etc, etc.

Yes, the NFL has responsibility in this........but gimme a break. The players have just as much if not more.

They wanted the money.......and now they want the money too.
Its all about the money on all parts and parties.

[rationalfan]

They said Junior Seau was showing signs of head trauma looong before he retired. So im wondering.....where were his caring family members then? Why didnt they stop him from playing anymore?
They said he was forgetful, had bad headaches, short term memory loss, etc, etc.

Yes, the NFL has responsibility in this........but gimme a break. The players have just as much if not more.

They wanted the money.......and now they want the money too.
Its all about the money on all parts and parties.

You realize seau is dead, right? He's not going after more money, his family is. They weren't players. Different argument.

And it's the money that's making so many arguments on this board twisted. It's about safety, regardless of what someone's salary is.

[Dapper Dan]

You realize seau is dead, right? He's not going after more money, his family is. They weren't players. Different argument.

And it's the money that's making so many arguments on this board twisted. It's about safety, regardless of what someone's salary is.

I assumed by "they" he meant the family. At least that's what I got from it.

[Dapper Dan]

It's not that no one cares about them because they're rich. It's that they've had the money and opportunity to get a free college degree, play a few seasons, save up, and quit. But they don't. They blow every cent because they'll earn more next Sunday. At some point the person is at least a little bit responsible.

[rationalfan]

It's not that no one cares about them because they're rich. It's that they've had the money and opportunity to get a free college degree, play a few seasons, save up, and quit. But they don't. They blow every cent because they'll earn more next Sunday. At some point the person is at least a little bit responsible.

You're generalizing in a ridiculous way.

There are certainly examples of players that match your categorization; but they're the exception, not the rule. That's like saying everyone on this board wants to see champ moved to safety.

[Poet]

Most NFL players don't blow all their money.

[BroncoWave]

Most NFL players don't blow all their money.

That's actually not true. According to the SI article I linked 78% of NFL players go bankrupt or are under severe financial stress within 2 years of retirement. Pretty shocking stat but it really shows how dumb a lot of guys who come through the league are.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/1/index.htm

[Poet]

That is probably a recent trend. I recall reading a few years back that it was far from the norm.

[wayninja]

first, my post about players not having the same rights as average citizens was a summary of the mood of this thread. i didn't say it was fact.

You said:


the takeaway of this thread:
- unlike most of the american workforce, the players have no rights because they make a lot of money and they chose the profession they wanted to go into.

You said no rights. It's right ^ there. See?

I'll buy that you were suggesting this is the sentiment of the thread, but again, that's a crazy exaggeration since no one remotely suggested that NFL players should have no rights. So, point stands.



second, you're implying that my response to your post is suggesting nfl players are treated less fair than average citizens. that's your interpretation (says more about you than me). you stated "NFL players are treated with the same regard as every other american citizen." no they're not. they're celebrated as heroes, cursed at as scapegoats and used as commodity at a much higher rate than the average US citizen. if you need an example, when is the last time somebody asked for the autograph of a second-tier plumber or architect?

In some capacity, every other american is treated with this regard. Are you suggesting that football players are the only celebrities? The only scapegoats? The only heroes? I didn't use the word 'average', you did.

They are treated the same with respect to the rights they have, which is all I was saying in the first place, since that was the basis of the original argument. If you want to twist my statement to mean that they have no celebrity, or side effects of that celebrity, that's a whole new argument that it outside the scope of our conversation and meaningless in the context of workers rights and NFL culpability.

[Chef Zambini]

Since when is the NFL on par with the New England journal of medicine? It's not the NFL's job to do medical research IMHO. That's for, well, professionals. If you get your advice from the Gas station clerk as to the health value of the hotdog spinning on the rotisserie, you deserve salmonella.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but people can't only believe what they want to when it suits them and then sue when it doesn't.but the NFL did emply professionals, they have asked universities and third parties to conduct research. They did get evaluations on helmets, brands other than RIDDELL the helmet they REQUIRE all players to wear.
what if the NFL had in their posession information / research, that indicated brand X offered more protection than riddell helmets, but they went with riddell because of a more favorable contract?
rav insists that the players knew the risks.
what if the NFL concealed the extent of the head trauma?
The NFL is only in hot water if they with-held info.
players assumed risk when they first started playing football, pop warner, highschool, college, the cumulative affect of head trauma over all those years actually exhonorates the NFL, as long as they did not conceal important information or make equipment selections based on price vs safety.

[Dapper Dan]

Most NFL players don't blow all their money.

Maybe right now, today, they don't. But I figured we were talking 5, 10, 15 years ago. Surely no one is arguing the NFL is lying to players about safety, etc today.

[Simple Jaded]

Making them sign waivers at this point would actually hurt the league in these lawsuits.......

[rationalfan]

You said:



You said no rights. It's right ^ there. See?

I'll buy that you were suggesting this is the sentiment of the thread, but again, that's a crazy exaggeration since no one remotely suggested that NFL players should have no rights. So, point stands.




In some capacity, every other american is treated with this regard. Are you suggesting that football players are the only celebrities? The only scapegoats? The only heroes? I didn't use the word 'average', you did.

They are treated the same with respect to the rights they have, which is all I was saying in the first place, since that was the basis of the original argument. If you want to twist my statement to mean that they have no celebrity, or side effects of that celebrity, that's a whole new argument that it outside the scope of our conversation and meaningless in the context of workers rights and NFL culpability.

you could also state "in some capacity every person on the planet is a genius." that doesn't mean we have a 100 percent genius rate.

[wayninja]

you could also state "in some capacity every person on the planet is a genius." that doesn't mean we have a 100 percent genius rate.

The point being what exactly? That's all you really want to respond to in that entire block?

I guess you are right. No two people are ever treated identically. Good point.

Getting back to the discussion though; Peyton manning an I are both treated the same (with the ceteris paribus clause, if you insist), with respect to our rights.

[TXBRONC]

I agree with G about developing better helmets but I'm not sure it will have a huge impact ithe number of head trauma's that happen. But if it gives any kind of help it's still worth it.

As far as the Seau family is concerned I don't think they will win in court because I think the NFL would be able argue effectively he new that were risks in playing the game.

[Simple Jaded]

The point being what exactly? That's all you really want to respond to in that entire block?

I guess you are right. No two people are ever treated identically. Good point.

Getting back to the discussion though; Peyton manning an I are both treated the same (with the ceteris paribus clause, if you insist), with respect to our rights.

I think I speak for the entire board when I ask what a "ceteris paribus clause" is? Save us a trip to google.......

[NightTrainLayne]

I think I speak for the entire board when I ask what a "ceteris paribus clause" is? Save us a trip to google.......

"All else being equal."

[BigDaddyBronco]

I agree with G about developing better helmets but I'm not sure it will have a huge impact ithe number of head trauma's that happen. But if it gives any kind of help it's still worth it.

As far as the Seau family is concerned I don't think they will win in court because I think the NFL would be able argue effectively he new that were risks in playing the game.

Take away the helmets and pads and make it like rugby. I wonder if rugby has as many concussions as the NFL?

[Chef Zambini]

Take away the helmets and pads and make it like rugby. I wonder if rugby has as many concussions as the NFL?same with aussie rules football, what are the comparisons?
it could be argued that all the pads and helmets increase the fearlesness making the impacts more violent.
if they played naked there would be alot less holding.

[wayninja]

same with aussie rules football, what are the comparisons?
it could be argued that all the pads and helmets increase the fearlesness making the impacts more violent.
if they played naked there would be alot less holding.

They might have to introduce VERY personal fouls.

[BroncoWave]

They might have to introduce VERY personal fouls.

You'd find out who the gay players in the NFL are quickly! :lol:

[Chef Zambini]

what would be the penalty yardage for fondling/
more or less than holding?
what kind of calls are we going to add to "horsecollar"
would an erection be considered 'taunting" ?

[Simple Jaded]

"All else being equal."

Ohhhhhhh, must be Italian.......

[Tebowtime2011]

What's worse, is the NFL has had the absolute worst healthcare for retirees, ironically in a sport whwere it is needed most.

Something was missed severly along the lines of taking care of players during, and after their NFL days by someone.

ESPN radio had had great segments about this for over the course of the last couple years.

Nope, sorry. Since the NFL pays them alot they are completely off the hook for worrying about safety! Apparently you aren't allowed to have a league that pays the players a lot AND protects their safety. I don't understand how the NFL can protect the players they have no control on hits to the head when two players both can brace themselves for the hits. How can the NFL protect the players.

[wayninja]

I don't understand how the NFL can protect the players they have no control on hits to the head when two players both can brace themselves for the hits. How can the NFL protect the players.

It's simple. Pussify the game.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I just can't support a bunch of lawsuits vs the NFL based on injuries sustained by playing the game. Playing football is a high risk profession, but no more than being a police officer, firefighter, or member of the armed forces. All of those careers are a CHOICE that come with inherent risk of injury and possibly death.

The difference? NFL players on average make 100X more money and if they are even reasonably intelligent with their money, they can retire comfortably in under a decade (for an average player, elite players much sooner) with their health still intact.

Let's use Jahvid Best as an example seeing as how he's in the news about potentially never playing again. This guy had a major concussion in college. Now, after another major concussion in the NFL (big surprise) he may never be able to play again. Best is 3 years into a 5 year, 9.8 million dollar contract. If he never plays another down, he'll make well over 5 million of that 9.8 million dollars and will likely also receive a large injury settlement.

Conversely, Best could've quit football after that initial concussion in college and been relatively safe from ever receiving another one. However, he'd have had to give up all that $$$ and get a real job like the rest of us working folks. Guess what he chose? Once again, I just can't feel too much pity for him. He chose to play football and got a free college education out of it. He then chose the NFL which made him a multimillionaire. Now, I'm supposed to feel sorry for him and feel that he's entitled to even more money in injury settlements later on in life? Not gonna happen.

I'd be surprised if anyone turned down the opportunity of 9.8 million dollars at the risk of future injury in life. These players are well compensated for the risk associated with their chosen profession. Compared to the average American, the rewards far outweigh the risks to NFL players.

[Dapper Dan]

it's simple. Pussify the game.

lfl ftw.

[sneakers]

It's simple. Pussify the game.

http://costumepop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/quaterback-cat-football-player-costume.jpg

[GEM]

Nope, sorry. Since the NFL pays them alot they are completely off the hook for worrying about safety! Apparently you aren't allowed to have a league that pays the players a lot AND protects their safety.

No, maybe going into your career you assess that the players before you got shit health care at the end of their career. So instead of going out and buying a million dollar car, you put that million in the bank for your health care. I mean a lot of these guys make that in a season. Put it away, let it gain interest and your health care is set. Personal responsibility. Something most of these guys know nothing about. You know the risks and you know what awaits you, so don't depend on a system that you know is a failure.

[silkamilkamonico]

NFL needs to take proper steps on ensuring the players coming into their league have health insurance options that can cover them for the dangers of their profession.

If I want to go Alaskan Deep water fishing for a summer as a job, I have the option to get life insurance because of the risks of the profession. This should have been done a long time ago by the NFL.

[wayninja]

NFL needs to take proper steps on ensuring the players coming into their league have health insurance options that can cover them for the dangers of their profession.

If I want to go Alaskan Deep water fishing for a summer as a job, I have the option to get life insurance because of the risks of the profession. This should have been done a long time ago by the NFL.

Your first statement seems a bit contradictory with your illustration. Should it be mandatory or an option? You seem to imply the former and then give an example with the latter.

[silkamilkamonico]

Your first statement seems a bit contradictory with your illustration. Should it be mandatory or an option? You seem to imply the former and then give an example with the latter.


You lay out plans and give options to the players. I don't know if they have that today, but they did not have it 5 years ago. It's rather sad that a sport that athletes play, and then retire to the point where som cannot even walk later in life because of the physicality of it, has the worst health care options for it's employers of the 4 main professional sports in the US.

Players have been at the mercy of their own irresponsibility of being taken care of for health. Not even giving different future options or plans to invest in.

[BroncoJoe]

They can get their own damn insurance.

[silkamilkamonico]

They can get their own damn insurance.

That hasn't exactly protected the NFL from the endless lawsuits they have encountered the last few years, and will continue to do so. Giving players options can protect them.

The issue isn't players responsibility, the issue is protecting the NFLfrom current pending lawsuits aas well as future ones.

[BroncoJoe]

That hasn't exactly protected the NFL from the endless lawsuits they have encountered the last few years, and will continue to do so. Giving players options can protect them.

The issue isn't players responsibility, the issue is protecting the NFLfrom current pending lawsuits aas well as future ones.

Ok - I see your point now. Guess I should work on my reading comprehension, or at least read the entire thread.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Bernard Pollard has a bleak take on the future of the NFL.

The hard-hitting Baltimore Ravens safety told CBSSports.com recently that he doesn't believe the league will be in existence in 30 years because of rules changes instituted in an effort to make the game safer, and the chance a player might die on the field as players continue to get stronger and faster.

"Thirty years from now, I don't think it will be in existence. I could be wrong. It's just my opinion, but I think with the direction things are going -- where [NFL rules makers] want to lighten up, and they're throwing flags and everything else -- there's going to come a point where fans are going to get fed up with it," he told the website.

rest - http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8889447/bernard-pollard-baltimore-ravens-nfl-not-exist-30-years

[Nomad]

Don't worry Obama will soon be regulating NFL safety too. Saw the segment on First Take this morning.

[silkamilkamonico]

NFL just needs to protect it's actions. Players are being irresponsible IMO about their profession and now want to come looking for help when they probably should have looked into it right away.

Players may be stupid and choose not to take any plans, but at least NFL can protect itself legally but offering some.

[BroncoJoe]

I seriously doubt anything will take the NFL down...

Hopefully these suits don't affect the game even more....

You think the guys in MMA think about sueing because of health issues? Gimme a break.

[Krugan]

I seriously doubt anything will take the NFL down...

Hopefully these suits don't affect the game even more....

You think the guys in MMA think about sueing because of health issues? Gimme a break.

Being a fairly new sport(as far as big time) its early to think the same kind of lawsuits wont pop up.

Just speculation.

[Chef Zambini]

No, maybe going into your career you assess that the players before you got shit health care at the end of their career. So instead of going out and buying a million dollar car, you put that million in the bank for your health care. I mean a lot of these guys make that in a season. Put it away, let it gain interest and your health care is set. Personal responsibility. Something most of these guys know nothing about. You know the risks and you know what awaits you, so don't depend on a system that you know is a failure.BINGO!
what these guys spend on jewelry would set them up for healthcare for life!
or that second, third, or fourth car, or the boat they never use.
again...
the liability issue for the NFL is not the risk of injury, it is going to be wether they COICEALED information from the players. ALSO...
the selection of equipment!
the NFL REQUIRES a specific helmet and pads. if research indicates better helmets werr available or thaT OTHER CONTACT SPORTS HAVE LESS INJURY BECAUSE THEY HAVE LESS armor, then the NFL may have issues.

[BroncoJoe]

Being a fairly new sport(as far as big time) its early to think the same kind of lawsuits wont pop up.

Just speculation.

Yeah. No one that fights understands the risks. It's completely understandable.

/end sarcasm

[wayninja]

I seriously doubt anything will take the NFL down...

Hopefully these suits don't affect the game even more....

You think the guys in MMA think about sueing because of health issues? Gimme a break.


I think everyone thinks of suing. It's the American dream.

If there is a lawyer that thinks they can win, they will convince a MMA pro to sue. It will happen, bank it.

[rationalfan]

I think everyone thinks of suing. It's the American dream.

If there is a lawyer that thinks they can win, they will convince a MMA pro to sue. It will happen, bank it.

it's not that simple. the suits that carry promise are the ones that argue an unsafe work environment that was ignored and not repaired led to the injury.

as an example, it's not like every guy who works in a coal mine can sue if he gets the "black lung." but he can if the coal company new about the dangers linking coal mine exposure to the "black lung" and failed to either educate about the conditions or help its employee to prevent it.

of course, i'm not a lawyer, but that's what i remember from college law courses.

[wayninja]

it's not that simple. the suits that carry promise are the ones that argue an unsafe work environment that was ignored and not repaired led to the injury.

as an example, it's not like every guy who works in a coal mine can sue if he gets the "black lung." but he can if the coal company new about the dangers linking coal mine exposure to the "black lung" and failed to either educate about the conditions or help its employee to prevent it.

of course, i'm not a lawyer, but that's what i remember from college law courses.

I think you are confusing 'merit' with 'blood sucking scumbags who call themselves lawyers'.

My point was that the days of case requiring merit to be brought forth are long gone. If there is even a scrap of anything a lawyer can hang a case on, even if he himself knows is total bullshit, he will. And trust me, there will be a lawyer that finds the MMA companies are hiding/lying/destroying/knew of blah blah blah. It will happen. We live in an age where hot coffee gets you millions and murderers walk free.

[Poet]

Do you realize that the hot coffee almost killed the lady? Literally, and that McDonalds have received almost 1000 letters nation wide about the coffee being too hot? People got second degree burns from it on their fingers. Look man, I get it, you think any lawsuit is frivolous, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

[Krugan]

Meh, get what you can and damn the consequence seems to be a theme though.

People suing subway over 1 inch of sandwich, bread is imperfect, but yet its legit lawsuit?

Reform sooner than later would be great, but thats a whole new ball of wax.

[wayninja]

Do you realize that the hot coffee almost killed the lady? Literally, and that McDonalds have received almost 1000 letters nation wide about the coffee being too hot? People got second degree burns from it on their fingers. Look man, I get it, you think any lawsuit is frivolous, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I never said any lawsuit was frivolous.

And the coffee almost killed her? Did it shoot her after she spilled it on herself?

I know there's a line here, but this 'aint it. I get that the coffee was too hot, but it wasn't thrown at her by a McDonalds employee, and the capacity for 8 ounces of water to burn someone to death is a bit of a stretch. A million dollars for 10k in medical bills is too far. Sorry. I'm not saying she wasn't entitled to anything, but her lawyer convinced her to shoot for the moon.

[Poet]

I never said any lawsuit was frivolous.

And the coffee almost killed her? Did it shoot her after she spilled it on herself?

I know there's a line here, but this 'aint it.
Well she had third degree burns and several of her doctors thought she was going to lose her life. That's a documented fact. If you see the pictures, it burned her to the bone, from her pelvis region to her mid thigh. It was awful.

[wayninja]

Well she had third degree burns and several of her doctors thought she was going to lose her life. That's a documented fact. If you see the pictures, it burned her to the bone, from her pelvis region to her mid thigh. It was awful.

I'm sure it was awful. But we are still talking about someone spilling something hot on themselves and being awarded millions of dollars for it.

She had 3rd degree burns on 6% of her body. That's typically not enough to kill you unless it restricts breathing somehow.

Again, I'm not arguing how bad the burns were or whether or not the woman went through hell. I'm simply arguing that she spilled the coffee on herself and was awarded millions of dollars. That was unheard of 40 years ago.

[Poet]

I'm sure it was awful. But we are still talking about someone spilling something hot on themselves and being awarded millions of dollars for it.

She had 3rd degree burns on 6% of her body. That's typically not enough to kill you unless it restricts breathing somehow.

Again, I'm not arguing how bad the burns were or whether or not the woman went through hell. I'm simply arguing that she spilled the coffee on herself and was awarded millions of dollars. That was unheard of 40 years ago.

Coffee made at normal temperature doesn't even come close to that. She asked McDonalds several times for them to pay her medical bills. Her doctors said it was probable she was going to die. That's a fact, and your pelvis region and mid thighs is more than 6% of your body. Again, I'm telling you facts, it was proven, you can't really debate them my man.

Also, McDonalds knew that their cup was unlikely to maintain integrity and often the lid fell off of it. They knew that their coffee was too hot, they didn't care. They knew that their lid was a liability, they didn't care. They didn't even consider to pay her medical bills.

Then she sued. I have yet to meet anyone, conservative, liberal, Christian, Arab, Hindu, Japanese, anyone, who actually was familiar with the case who thinks she screwed McDonalds'. Not the rumors or misnomers of the case, the actual facts.

There's a reason for that.

http://harmfuldruginfocenter.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/mcdonalds.jpg

Look at that and tell me that her doctors, who have no stake in this, are wrong? She contributed to her plight, that's not in question. However, when a person or entity does something in full knowledge that takes coffee burns from bad to life-threatening, they really, really ****** up.

http://www.fortworthinjuryattorneyblog.com/McDonalds1.jpg

[wayninja]

Coffee made at normal temperature doesn't even come close to that. She asked McDonalds several times for them to pay her medical bills. Her doctors said it was probable she was going to die. That's a fact, and your pelvis region and mid thighs is more than 6% of your body. Again, I'm telling you facts, it was proven, you can't really debate them my man.

Also, McDonalds knew that their cup was unlikely to maintain integrity and often the lid fell off of it. They knew that their coffee was too hot, they didn't care. They knew that their lid was a liability, they didn't care. They didn't even consider to pay her medical bills.

Then she sued. I have yet to meet anyone, conservative, liberal, Christian, Arab, Hindu, Japanese, anyone, who actually was familiar with the case who thinks she screwed McDonalds'. Not the rumors or misnomers of the case, the actual facts.

There's a reason for that.

http://harmfuldruginfocenter.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/mcdonalds.jpg

Look at that and tell me that her doctors, who have no stake in this, are wrong? She contributed to her plight, that's not in question. However, when a person or entity does something in full knowledge that takes coffee burns from bad to life-threatening, they really, really ****** up.

http://www.fortworthinjuryattorneyblog.com/McDonalds1.jpg

coffee is made at 200 degrees roughly. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

You can see for yourself that 3rd degree burns were 6% of her body.

I'm not arguing how much McDonald's 'cared'. I'm simply saying she sued for millions and won. 'Caring' has nothing to do with it. Today McDonalds temperature is only slightly lower than it was then, and yes, they use better cups now and larger print that it's HOT.

[Poet]

You used wikipedia...I've used...court facts...sigh...

[Simple Jaded]

If coffee did that to my leg I'd be suing too, I've spilled coffee more time that I can remember and it's never left a mark. Accidents happen but when they leave you all ****** up like that it's not just spilled coffee. People shouldn't have to fear deformity from spilled coffee.

That lady got ****** up, I used to think like wayninja, not anymore.......

[Dapper Dan]

Holy smokes. Those pictures are insane. She did the right thing. I probably would have went on a spree, burning every McDonald's to the ground. I understand if someone does something knowing the risk. Who would think that coffee would do that to you, if spilled?

[wayninja]

You used wikipedia...I've used...court facts...sigh...

You didn't cite any 'facts' other than the pictures.

Which is clearly what is swaying your thought process on it. It's fine. She got messed up, no doubt. She also put hot liquid in a flimsy container in between her legs.

This is exactly what this thread is about, you take risks, you might get the consequences. I'd argue further, but I have to go pour chemicals in my eyes and call my lawyer.

[SR]

What the **** is happening in here?!

[Dzone]

NFL Films is being sued for glorifying violent collisions. This should open the door to suing all the Major TV networks for the same kind of baloney. EA sports should be sued also for Madden football...look how violent that shit is...my gosh, we just dont have enough attorneys to go around

[SR]

President Obama wouldn't let his son (if he had one) play football because its too violent

[Dapper Dan]

What the **** is happening in here?!

There's somethin' happenin' here. What it is ain't exactly clear. There's a man with a gun over there, tellin' me, I got to beware.

I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.

There's battle lines being drawn. Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.

[Dzone]

What the **** is happening in here?!
I dont know. I have learned that football and coffee are dangerous

[Poet]

You didn't cite any 'facts' other than the pictures.

Which is clearly what is swaying your thought process on it. It's fine. She got messed up, no doubt. She also put hot liquid in a flimsy container in between her legs.

This is exactly what this thread is about, you take risks, you might get the consequences. I'd argue further, but I have to go pour chemicals in my eyes and call my lawyer.

I'm going to start this post out by saying that I like you. I like you a lot. Be my friend.

I was referring to the facts that I know about the case, which is not fair for me to use against you since I haven't actually posted that many. For that, I was wrong.

She didn't know that the container was flimsy, no one really did, except McDonalds. I feel as if using this case as an example of bad lawsuits is awful. She only asked for her damn medical expensives and then offered her 800 bucks.

http://gwilliamlawfirm.com/2011/07/stella-liebeck-the-facts-and-myths-surrounding-the-hot-coffee-case/

The third degree burns hit 6% of her body. The total burns, were 22%. I also misspoke, which again, I am sorry. I have done a very poor job of construing my points. I blame it on being stupid.

[wayninja]

I'm going to start this post out by saying that I like you. I like you a lot. Be my friend.

I was referring to the facts that I know about the case, which is not fair for me to use against you since I haven't actually posted that many. For that, I was wrong.

She didn't know that the container was flimsy, no one really did, except McDonalds. I feel as if using this case as an example of bad lawsuits is awful. She only asked for her damn medical expensives and then offered her 800 bucks.

http://gwilliamlawfirm.com/2011/07/stella-liebeck-the-facts-and-myths-surrounding-the-hot-coffee-case/

The third degree burns hit 6% of her body. The total burns, were 22%. I also misspoke, which again, I am sorry. I have done a very poor job of construing my points. I blame it on being stupid.


Well, you are a very fair master debater, so I will also concede that using this particular case in such a flippant way to illustrate the larger point was probably not all that great. She's not a money grubber, and my initial post on the subject may have made it seem like I was putting her in that category, which isn't fair.

She suffered unduly, to be sure, and McDonalds was definitely not blameless. So, again, bad choice of categorization on my part.

[Dapper Dan]

2277

[Poet]

2277

What makes you think we didn't?

[wayninja]

Some people touch their screens. My screen touches me.