Should Chris Harris move to Safety? (Devil's Advocate)

[MHCBill]

Does anyone really think any of our other corners wouldn't have gotten beat by Torrey Smith and very accurate deep balls by Joe Flacco?

One thing I remember from high school math... a negative can not be proven.

No way we'll ever know, but our best corner had a bad half. Quite honestly, if you watch the replay on the TD at the end of the half, Smith pulls Champ's shoulder creating him to lose his body control making it unable for him to deflect the pass. Should have been offensive PI.

We are primed to be the #1 seed next year. My only worry... can we stay as healthy again next year with our key contributors?

[DenBronx]

Smith didnt beat Harris, he beat Champ badly while scoring two TDs.

Harris actually was the best CB on the field that day. Harris is young, athletic and strong. He makes explosive plays and is a future pro bowler.

So no.

[Chef Zambini]

giving up those TDs at the end of each was was inexcusable! I faiult both strtaegy and performance! champ was exposed, next year he will be challenged, unlike thje previous 5 years when he was just ignored.
the way our entire D played and was deployed was inexplicably deplorable!
our d was shit!
smelly runny dog shit on a wedding dress the day before the wedding shit!

[Chef Zambini]

its more than obvious that if ANY corner should move to safety it should be champ.
but champ doesnt wanna so it aint gonna happen.HArris IS THE REASON WHY CHAmp will get challenged more nexy season ! champ should enjoy this years pro-bowl because it will be his LAST !

[DenBronx]

I do think Champ will get thrown at alot more next year. Teams are starting to notice he has slowed down.

As much as people will disagree with me but I still think Harris is our best CB. That might sounds wierd to some of you and almost blasphemy like but I think Harris is better at this stage. So yeah, Harris will not move and he will get paid when it is time.

[TXBRONC]

The last touchdown given up was the back breaker but it was Moore that misplayed the ball. Replacing him would be just a knee-jerk reaction. He played very well all year long. Harris is corner played and extremely well moving him wouldn't be good idea.

[DenBronx]

Well then maybe they should consider Porter if Champ and Harris are out of the question.

Seattle and the Packers are sharing our frustration. Two damn good football teams... every dog has its day I guess.

[silkamilkamonico]

Champ Bailey had arguably the worst game of his career. He got absolutely killed out there. I still think he is a great player to have. I would however hate to lose Chris Harris or Tony Carter to continue to have Champ around though.

I don't understand why Chris wasn;t on Torrie Smith. IMHO Harris is our best cover CB right now. He's very dynamic. I'm not sure why he wouldn't have beeen better on a young dynamic player like Smith.

I think Bailey would have been fine matching up with Boldin and would have blanketed him for the most part.

And Chris Harris should NOT be playing any other position than CB2, if not CB1.

[silkamilkamonico]

The last touchdown given up was the back breaker but it was Moore that misplayed the ball. Replacing him would be just a knee-jerk reaction. He played very well all year long. Harris is corner played and extremely well moving him wouldn't be good idea.


I agree. Moore has been outstanding all year, and unfortunately had one of the worst plays of the season and the absolutel wrong time.

[NightTerror218]

i want to see what our 3rd rounder from this year Bolden, can do next season. he was great at Arizona State until he was injured. I have not seen him on field much besides special teams.

[weazel]

zam say's move Champ to safety... it couldn't have hurt on Saturday

[NightTerror218]

zam say's move Champ to safety... it couldn't have hurt on Saturday

So Smith could have burned carter? Would Champ would have had the speed to cover over the top?

[weazel]

So Smith could have burned carter? Would Champ would have had the speed to cover over the top?

why is everyone talking about Smith like he's the best receiver this team has ever played against? He's Torrey ******* Smith, he's above average... nothing more.
Maybe Champ couldn't have covered over the top, if that's the case maybe his usefulness is over with. If he's too slow for safety, than he's definitely too slow for corner. He looked absolutely horrible out there, he was beat 5 times in the first half EASILY, and actually gave up on two of them

[NightTerror218]

why is everyone talking about Smith like he's the best receiver this team has ever played against? He's Torrey ******* Smith, he's above average... nothing more.
Maybe Champ couldn't have covered over the top, if that's the case maybe his usefulness is over with. If he's too slow for safety, than he's definitely too slow for corner. He looked absolutely horrible out there, he was beat 5 times in the first half EASILY, and actually gave up on two of them

he may be above average but he is one of the fastest WRs in the league. He runs only a couple routes, mostly post routes where he out runs everyone. that is what he does. All he is good for.

[Joel]

zam say's move Champ to safety... it couldn't have hurt on Saturday
Zam ain't the only one been saying that; only difference is a LOT of people are saying it now. Champs instincts, reads and anticipation are better than ever, but his closing speed has been falling off since at least last year (and he was never a burner, he just made up for it by closing fast on the ball.) It's pretty obvious who Chris Harris has been studying since we signed him last year; guy's always hit like a ton of bricks, but he's not one of those flashy CBs happy to give up a dozen TDs every year in exchange for a half dozen picks: He covers first and picks second, as he should.

Obvious solution: Move Champ to safety, where savvy, reads and anticipation trump speed (hence so many great CBs make the move as they age,) make Harris our #1 CB as his heir apparent, let Porter and Carter fight it out for the #2 spot, and put the loser at nickel. Problem solved, and we don't even have to spend a draft pick or FA money to find a solution to the Rahim Moore problem OR Champs fading speed.

[camdisco24]

I understand talking about Champ moving to safety, but not Harris.

IMO, he is our next star CB. I LOVED what I saw from him this season. Guy is going to be a beast.

[MHCBill]

Sorry. I thinking everyone's missing my point of the thread. If Harris would have been burned on those plays that Champ was, would people be calling for him to switch to safety.

Champ got beat a few times. Give them credit. They believed they could do it, and then most importantly they executed.

It's freaking football, and every once in a while your best players are going to get beat.

Champ shouldn't have to move to safety because he got beat in the biggest game of the year. Nor should Moore be cut, or Manning benched for throwing across his body.

Players get beat... they all do at one time or another. Unfortunately for Champ it was in such a huge game. By the way, Champ gave up one catch for 7 yards to Smith in the 2nd half. It appears an adjustment was made.

[Joel]

I agree. Moore has been outstanding all year, and unfortunately had one of the worst plays of the season and the absolutel wrong time.
Moore is to safety what Mays is to MLB: If you want a safety who blows up or BY runners all the time and sucks in coverage, he's your guy. Personally, I consider anyone whose only skill is hit-and-miss runstopping a liability at what is primarily a pass coverage position. People have been telling me for 2 years now that Moore's the next John Lynch, but Adams has more passes defended and Leonhard has more picks, and I never saw John Lynch 5 yards in front of a 70 yard TD pass from Joe Freakin' FLACCO with 30 seconds to play.


Sorry. I thinking everyone's missing my point of the thread. If Harris would have been burned on those plays that Champ was, would people be calling for him to switch to safety.

Champ got beat a few times. Give them credit. They believed they could do it, and then most importantly they executed.

It's freaking football, and every once in a while your best players are going to get beat.

Champ shouldn't have to move to safety because he got beat in the biggest game of the year. Nor should Moore be cut, or Manning benched for throwing across his body.

Players get beat... they all do at one time or another. Unfortunately for Champ it was in such a huge game. By the way, Champ gave up one catch for 7 yards to Smith in the 2nd half. It appears an adjustment was made.
If that's your point then, no, if our second year CB had been beaten for long passes and a pair of TDs people wouldn't be saying, "he's still got all his veteran experience and play recognition, but is no longer fast enough to cover track stars on the edge." They'd figure he didn't have the speed OR experience and needed to be on the bench. Champ knows how to cover one-on-one; his body's just not up to it anymore. He can still be a Pro Bowler at safety, but is becoming a liability at CB. That's just how time flies.

[silkamilkamonico]

Moore is to safety what Mays is to MLB: If you want a safety who blows up or BY runners all the time and sucks in coverage, he's your guy. Personally, I consider anyone whose only skill is hit-and-miss runstopping a liability at what is primarily a pass coverage position. People have been telling me for 2 years now that Moore's the next John Lynch, but Adams has more passes defended and Leonhard has more picks, and I never saw John Lynch 5 yards in front of a 70 yard TD pass from Joe Freakin' FLACCO with 30 seconds to play.


No. Moore has been consistent all year, and coming from Fox and Del Rio themselves, is one of the reasons that his steadily improvement correlated with Denver's rising defense. He's a very young dynamic prospect who compliments any other type of Safety.

And please don't use 1 play as an indicator of his play all season. That's a tererible argument. That would be similiar in saying Manning had a terrible year for us because he rolled outside, threw across his body, made a terrible decision, and it was intercepted.

Looking for a Safety to replace Moore is taking a 5 steps back approach. You can't just plug a guy in and expect him to figure it out. There's a development of progress, and Moore has been consistently rising his level of play throughout the year. He just made 1 very bad play at the very worst time of the game.

[TXBRONC]

No. Moore has been consistent all year, and coming from Fox and Del Rio themselves, is one of the reasons that his steadily improvement correlated with Denver's rising defense. He's a very young dynamic prospect who compliments any other type of Safety.

And please don't use 1 play as an indicator of his play all season. That's a tererible argument. That would be similiar in saying Manning had a terrible year for us because he rolled outside, threw across his body, made a terrible decision, and it was intercepted.

Looking for a Safety to replace Moore is taking a 5 steps back approach. You can't just plug a guy in and expect him to figure it out. There's a development of progress, and Moore has been consistently rising his level of play throughout the year. He just made 1 very bad play at the very worst time of the game.

Joe Mays replaced because he wasn't up to snuff. It goes against rational thought say that Moore is as bad at safety as Mays was at linebacker. Moreno was benched for poor play, Mays was benched for poor play but Moore got to play the entire season even though was terrible. That would be b.s. to the nth degree.

[MOtorboat]

No.

[Simple Jaded]

Every player is Joe Mays and Manning is overpaid.

Sincerely, Joel.......

[Poet]

It was a bad matchup from the word go. Smith beat Bailey like he beats everyone else, speed. He doesn't run great routes and isn't a dynamic player, he just does one thing incredibly well. It was bad coaching to put Bailey on him after he got killed in the first half. Part of that strategy worked because Boldin wasn't relevant during the game. Boldin is obviously the only other WR Champ would have been on.

There has to be a reason why they didn't make the switch, but that reasoning was pretty damn costly.

[bcbronc]

Joel, no none has ever told you The Dream would be the next John Lynch. :lol:

And Smith is being underrated in this thread. He's evolved into a pretty solid WR. Not saying he's Larry Fitzgerald, but he's not exactly Ashley Lelie either.

Leave Harris, move Champ, let Rahim continue to develop.

[Joel]

No. Moore has been consistent all year, and coming from Fox and Del Rio themselves, is one of the reasons that his steadily improvement correlated with Denver's rising defense. He's a very young dynamic prospect who compliments any other type of Safety.

And please don't use 1 play as an indicator of his play all season. That's a tererible argument. That would be similiar in saying Manning had a terrible year for us because he rolled outside, threw across his body, made a terrible decision, and it was intercepted.

Looking for a Safety to replace Moore is taking a 5 steps back approach. You can't just plug a guy in and expect him to figure it out. There's a development of progress, and Moore has been consistently rising his level of play throughout the year. He just made 1 very bad play at the very worst time of the game.
I don't think Champ needs to "figure out" anything at safety, I just think he's too slow to remain a CB. Show me some big plays Moore made this year; he had a pick, but otherwise it's just "ooo, nice tackle." Nine times out of ten, when a safety makes a tackle someone screwed up and the offense just got a big gain. About the only exception is a safety blitz, but Moore only has 1 sack in 15 starts, so I doubt that explains it.


Joe Mays replaced because he wasn't up to snuff. It goes against rational thought say that Moore is as bad at safety as Mays was at linebacker. Moreno was benched for poor play, Mays was benched for poor play but Moore got to play the entire season even though was terrible. That would be b.s. to the nth degree.
Moore sucks in coverage but makes explosive hits when he doesn't misread/overrun the play or whiff the tackle—just like Mays.


Every player is Joe Mays and Manning is overpaid.

Sincerely, Joel.......
Who brought up Manning? Oh, right: YOU did.

Every player isn't Joe Mays, but a primary coverage man often out of position or missing tackles because he's constantly trying to lay people out is CLASSIC Mays—except in a safety; that's classic Moore.


Joel, no none has ever told you The Dream would be the next John Lynch. :lol:

And Smith is being underrated in this thread. He's evolved into a pretty solid WR. Not saying he's Larry Fitzgerald, but he's not exactly Ashley Lelie either.

Leave Harris, move Champ, let Rahim continue to develop.
It sure sounds that way; people talk about a VERY dubious second year guy like his awful first season didn't happen and he's a future HoFer. He's no John Lynch, and certainly no Hakeem "the Dream" Olajuwon. As far as Smith be a fine receiver because he's nothing but a track star, last year people said that was why Thomas would never be a legit #1 until he learned to run something more complex than a go route. Champ's never been a burner, and he's well past 30 now, so you can beat him with speed unless he plays WAY off and gives up easy underneath routes or gets safety help over the top (bringing us back to Moores flaws.)

Move Champ next to Adams and let Moore develop on the practice field; he clearly needs it.

[TXBRONC]

I don't think Champ needs to "figure out" anything at safety, I just think he's too slow to remain a CB. Show me some big plays Moore made this year; he had a pick, but otherwise it's just "ooo, nice tackle." Nine times out of ten, when a safety makes a tackle someone screwed up and the offense just got a big gain. About the only exception is a safety blitz, but Moore only has 1 sack in 15 starts, so I doubt that explains it.


Moore sucks in coverage but makes explosive hits when he doesn't misread/overrun the play or whiff the tackle—just like Mays.


Who brought up Manning? Oh, right: YOU did.

Every player isn't Joe Mays, but a primary coverage man often out of position or missing tackles because he's constantly trying to lay people out is CLASSIC Mays—except in a safety; that's classic Moore.


It sure sounds that way; people talk about a VERY dubious second year guy like his awful first season didn't happen and he's a future HoFer. He's no John Lynch, and certainly no Hakeem "the Dream" Olajuwon. As far as Smith be a fine receiver because he's nothing but a track star, last year people said that was why Thomas would never be a legit #1 until he learned to run something more complex than a go route. Champ's never been a burner, and he's well past 30 now, so you can beat him with speed unless he plays WAY off and gives up easy underneath routes or gets safety help over the top (bringing us back to Moores flaws.)

Move Champ next to Adams and let Moore develop on the practice field; he clearly needs it.

Well you are mistaken about shifting to from corner to safety. Rod Woodson said people made the assumption all the time that it's easy transition and it's not. Rod is a Hall of Fame corner who made the switch. So he obviously knows since he's done it.

I have no idea what talking about comes Moore. I watched every game this year and he made very mistakes in coverage, or whiff on tackles or overran plays. A lot of things you say don't match up with what happened on the field.

I am glad you don't run the team because it probably be 3-13 rather than 13-3.

[Joel]

*shrugs* Show me a Rahim Moores highlight reel then. I know stats miss many things, but HIS show him with a sack, an Int, 7 passed defended and 3 stuffed runs (no idea how ESPN defines that beyond tackling a runner.) That's like a great play every other game. He does have 60 solo tackles but, once again, when a safety makes a tackle that isn't a sack it almost always means someone just made a big run or a nice catch.

As for the CB/FS transition, it may not be easy, but there's a reason great CBs routinely do it toward the end of their career. In his prime Champ practically played FS from the CB spot anyway, which is how he wound up coming off his assigned man and crossing the field for a pick against the Bengals back in... '05, I think. It was a long time ago; that's kind of the problem.

[bcbronc]

Joel: Rahim blew up a bunch of screens this season. Those were tackles for a loss or minimal gain. But there's probably not a whole lot of point trying to argue Rahim Moore with you because you have a tendency to make your mind up about a player and then think his play stays static over the coming years no matter what happens. (See Beadles, Zane for example).

TX: Woodson made the change with great success, but he's one of the all-time great DBs. Luckily, so is Champ. The two positions are different, no arguing that. Which is why I always said if/when Champ moved to S it would be an off-season thing, not mid-season. Whether Champ ever moves is still TBD, but I personally don't think he'd have much trouble figuring things out.

[Chef Zambini]

So Smith could have burned carter? Would Champ would have had the speed to cover over the top?he wouild have had the smarts!
the savvy, instinct and understanding of the situation !
at the very LEAST he would have tackled the receiver short of the goal line !
at the very LEAST!
CHAMP would NOT have been out of position!
his speed is irrelivent.

[Chef Zambini]

Zam ain't the only one been saying that; only difference is a LOT of people are saying it now. Champs instincts, reads and anticipation are better than ever, but his closing speed has been falling off since at least last year (and he was never a burner, he just made up for it by closing fast on the ball.) It's pretty obvious who Chris Harris has been studying since we signed him last year; guy's always hit like a ton of bricks, but he's not one of those flashy CBs happy to give up a dozen TDs every year in exchange for a half dozen picks: He covers first and picks second, as he should.

Obvious solution: Move Champ to safety, where savvy, reads and anticipation trump speed (hence so many great CBs make the move as they age,) make Harris our #1 CB as his heir apparent, let Porter and Carter fight it out for the #2 spot, and put the loser at nickel. Problem solved, and we don't even have to spend a draft pick or FA money to find a solution to the Rahim Moore problem OR Champs fading speed.
the only problem with your solution joe, and i do mean ONLY, is that champ has to sign off on it.
good luck with that.
Champ could be a pro-bowl SAFETY he will never be a probowl corner again, unlerss we bring back goodman and give opposing QBs an alternative to throwing at champ.